[3.5] Punching spellcaster build ?

[Avrodath]

Hello there, fellas! I'm seeking for your almighty wisdom for a build of some sort of magic punching mage :smallbiggrin:

(Ah, also a little detail, my grammar and my syntax might be horrible from time to time as english is not my native langage. Yeah sorry for that. :smallwink: )

So, I looked upon the alternative battle sorcerer (d8 hp, medium bab, light armor, full armored spellcasting, -1 spell known and per day) and I thought that it might be a good candidate for a punching spellcaster.

Some details about my future Forgotten Realms campaign :

- we begin at 1st level, 38 points build
- Base classes are limited to PHB1 and Complete series. Races are limited to the "classic" ones (half-elf/orc, elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, human) and their Forgotten Realms and Unearthed Arcana variants.
- We have access to Feats, spells and alternative class features in all official books, except from Dragon Magazines, Campaign specific books other than Forgotten Realms, and Tome of Battle
- Our campaign will be a very RP heavy one (so, playing a Half silver dragon/half giant sorcerer/paladin/monk will not be possible :smallcool:). It will be really, really slow (1-2 level/year), low (but fair) on magic objects and filled with social and non combat events and challenges.
- The other guys are definitely NOT optimizers. So, having an obscenely powerful cheesy character wouldn't be a good idea.

Sooo, I don't expect to go further than level 6 or 7, but I'd want to be quite reasonable in the combat and social aspects at such low levels.

I was planning to play a Calimshan Desert Half-orc Battlemage venerating the power of his fists.

S: 16
D: 16
C: 14 (12+2)
I: 8 (10-2)
W: 10
Cha: 16

Spells: level 1 : Fist of stone (obviously), Grease... and maybe a minor orb one ?
Feats : I really don't know
Equipment : Chain shirt, spiked gauntlet
Skills: Intimidation, Concentration

So a few questions :

- Is it viable enough ?
- Multiclassing, switching to another class, or staying full Battle Sorcerer ?
- Is it possible to get some intimidation/fear abilities, disarm, tripping or wrestling abilities at such low levels, and would it be worth it ?
- Any spell/feat/other advices for the lvl 1 character and the upcoming levels ?
- Any prestige class accessible at relatively low levels ?
- Any other advices ?

All in all, I'd just like to play an arcane puncher with some social capabilities and a pinch of battlefield control.


That's all I think. And... thanks !

[supermonkeyjoe]

Uhhhhh just a friendly warning, you might want to change "fisting" to "punching". Fisting is usually used to describe a type of sex act.

as for an actual build, have you looked at the duskblade class from players handbook 2? Duskblades can channel spells through their weapon and would work if you had some kind of gauntlet as your main weapon.

[roko10]

Heh, "fisting".

Actually, I think you can start with the Monk, take Monastic Tradition and Tashalorta at first(if you are comfortable to change your race to human) or third(if you are really want to stick to Calimshan Desert Half-orc), and from then switch over to Psychic Warrior. It isn't really a spellcaster, but it can work as one if you refluff it. Plus it can deal more damage with his fists.

[Avrodath]

Oh I see. Sorry for the sexual innuendo, it wasn't intentional, really.

Duskblade would have been perfect, but sadly not allowed.

I didn't think about psychic warrior. I'm really not used to psionics mechanics and roleplay, but that could be a good way to start. Thanks.

Edit : Hmmm... The Monastic Training feat might be problematic, being in the Eberron Campaign Setting manual.

If you guys have any other advices, I'm all ears.

[Ansem]

Duskblade + Monk theurge, although Sacred Fist only advances Divine.
Channel spells through your Flurry of Blows.

[RolandDeschain]

I'll second the Psychic Warrior idea. Check out the Claws of the Beast power.

If you're set on sorcerer or wizard, low level spells that could be interesting:

Fist of Stone
Ice Gauntlet
Blood Wind
Enlarge

[nedz]

I'm not sure I'd go with battle sorcerer, this cost is high and you want to PrC out anyway.

Something Like Barbarian 4 / Sorcerer 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 would be a reasonable start.
though Barbarian 2 / Battle Sorcerer 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 would also work.

There's always the old Barbarian 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Swiftblade X

The Gish handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786) will give you more ideas.

The spells you want to start with are Fist of Stone and Enlarge Person, add in some Rage and you should be quite scary.
Extra Rage is an obvious feat — to cover your lack of Barbarian levels.
You can also add in fear effects with feats such as
Intimidating Rage (CW102) — use with the Never Outnumbered skill trick
Imperious Command (DrU50)

[grarrrg]

Really? No one?
Fine...I'll do it.
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/musclewizard_small_6153.jpg

[Fouredged Sword]

I like a good dwarf sorcerer. You can be a gold dwarf and not eat a charisma penalty, and there is a ACF (in races of stone, I think) that lets you add your con to your charisma when determining bonus spells. This means a self buffing dwarf sorcerer can ignore getting a really high charisma as he gets extra spells from con and doesn't cast spells with saves.

Random thoughts on the subject

Fist of stone is a great spell for hitting people in melee.

Abjurant Champion is about the best PRC available for fighting in melee as a caster.

An ancestral relic rune staff will help with the spells known penalty of battle sorcerer.

Battle caster (feat) will upgrade your ability to cast in light armor to medium armor. That lets you wear mitheral full plate. You need to get medium armor prof at some point to avoid the non-prof penalties though. 2 level paladin dip maybe? Cha to saves is really nice.

Yes, here is my thoughts.

Gold Dwarf
Battle sorcerer 4 /Paladin 2 / Battle Sorcerer 4 / Abjurant champion 5 / Spellsword 1 / X

[dextercorvia]

The problem with Battle Sorcerer is that it trades Spell/day,Spells Known (for your whole career) for Chassis, which only matters for the first few levels.

The Dwarf Sub level isn't bad, but comes at Sorcerer 9. Also, you can't stack it with Battle Sorcerer because they are both trading away your 4th level spell known that you should gain at level 9.

[Sylthia]

Not mentioned thus far, but if you're playing a super slow leveling campaign with only 1-2 levels per year, you may want to hear your character to be more "complete" for lack of a better term right off the bat, rather than waiting for one that doesn't really start to gel until level 10 or so.

[Fouredged Sword]

Then I would do the following. Not the best gish, but a gish none the less.

Gold Dwarf Sorcerer 9 / Spellthief 1 / Paladin 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 (rearange to move spellthief and paladin up closer to 1st level.

Now, spellthief grants armored casting for spellthief spells, and the Master Spellthief feat expands that to all casting classes. Battle Caster extends this to medium armor. On top of this, you get to cause people to loose a spell of the highest level they can cast if you punch them while flanking or when they are denied their dex to ac.

Also, one could go simpler and go

Monk 1 / sorcerer X / abjurant champion 5 with the aesthetic mage feat gaining your charisma to AC. No need for battle sorcerer because you don't want to wear armor anyway.

[Red Fel]

If you're interested in invocations (a different form of spellcasting), you might consider the Melee Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?159708-Shinken-s-Guide-to-Melee-Warlocks). Sadly, if you can't use Dragon Magazine, that excludes the infamous Clawlock, but you can still build a Glaivelock that's tons o'fun. Warlocks give you a nice toolbox of powers which function all day, and because they lack the sheer firepower or massive versatility of primary caster classes, you (probably) won't be accused of over-optimizing.

[dextercorvia]

Straight Battle Sorcerer works if you are staying low levels. In low op, just take Improved Unarmed Strike at level one. I personally like to hold a reach weapon, and pick up Combat Reflexes. Then I can use my standard actions for casting things like Enlarge Person, and make a few AoOs when it isn't my turn.

[Bloodgruve]

I might suggest Ardent from Complete Psionic in stead of Psychic Warrior.

Its a psionic class with d8 HD, medium BAB and heavy armor proficiency. Its 'casting' is a bit limited due to the use of Mantles to create its power list but there is an alternate class feature that allows you to pick and choose what powers are on a Mantle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) so its really more versatile then it seems initially. It plays like a sorcerer though.

Get Claws of the Beast as suggested earlier. Ask your DM if you can change it from 'Claws' to 'Fists' and make it bludgeoning instead of slashing. It has a great long duration and its a swift action to manifest IIRC and it scales up as you level. You can have your damage source through natural attacks and take the rest of your powers as utility.

They're great at being mobile with Dimension Hop which melee really need.

If you build it right you can break the action economy every turn with Dominant Ideal ACF + Hustle power.

IDK, could be a viable build concept chassis.


If you're interested in invocations (a different form of spellcasting), you might consider the Melee Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?159708-Shinken-s-Guide-to-Melee-Warlocks). Sadly, if you can't use Dragon Magazine, that excludes the infamous Clawlock, but you can still build a Glaivelock that's tons o'fun. Warlocks give you a nice toolbox of powers which function all day, and because they lack the sheer firepower or massive versatility of primary caster classes, you (probably) won't be accused of over-optimizing.

I'm playing one of these currently and it is super fun. My DM hates unlimited Detect Magic and Shatter, can't wait for Flee the Scene and The Dead Walk... I'm running it as the party scout with bolstered spot/search/listen and its quite effective so far. This is another great option for a casty punchy guy.

GL
Blood~

[Avrodath]

Wow, that's some serious informations there. Being a rather average "effective build creator", that's invaluable. :smallbiggrin:

@RolandDeschain : spells noted, thanks !

@nedz : I like the idea of the brutish barbarian practising "barbarian" magic, then discovering true inherent magic casting abilities with the sorcerer class. I'll think about it. :smallredface:

@Fouredged Sword : A dwarf alternative. That sounds quite good. His powerful ACF comes to level 9 though, and that seems... rather far in term of real life time. Other than that, you got some interesting propositions. I'll look into the Spellthief class and the battle caster feat. Thanks !

@Red Fel : Yup, no Dragon magazine allowed. I never really played warlock, so I'm not really used to the class mechanics. I'll look into it.

@dextercorvia : Yep, it would essentilly be a really low level campaign. Thanks for your insight !

@Bloodgruve : I really know nothing about psionic classes, but their abilities sound rather interesting. I'll look into it.

Well, I guess I'll have to test and "study" all of this a little.
If some of you have some other wild thoughts, I'll read them appreciatively ! :smallsmile:

[Bloodgruve]

@Bloodgruve : I really know nothing about psionic classes, but their abilities sound rather interesting. I'll look into it.

Well, I guess I'll have to test and "study" all of this a little.
If some of you have some other wild thoughts, I'll read them appreciatively ! :smallsmile:

They're actually quite simple.

Powers=spells

Power points = 'spells per day'

lvl 1 power = 1 power point
lvl 2 power = 3 power points
etc..

A lot of powers can be Augmented by spending more power points when cast, its like a built in metamagic...

Claws of the Beast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm)can be Augmented and scales with level.

No Arcane Spell Failure either.

All the other suggestions look fun also.

GL
Blood~

[nedz]

@nedz : I like the idea of the brutish barbarian practising "barbarian" magic, then discovering true inherent magic casting abilities with the sorcerer class. I'll think about it. :smallredface:


One thing that I forgot to say, even though I meant to, was that you shouldn't necessarily take these levels in the order listed. So you would probably start with Barb 1 / Sorc 1 (or whatever) and then proceed from there. This allows you to define your character concept and then develop to the point where you can grab a PrC.

[Fouredged Sword]

note there is a great PRC for barbarians called rune scared berzerker. It literally does a barbarian magic system that goes from 1-5th level spells including gems like anti magic field.

[Red Fel]

@Red Fel : Yup, no Dragon magazine allowed. I never really played warlock, so I'm not really used to the class mechanics. I'll look into it.

Warlock comes from Complete Arcane, so it's within your allowed books for base classes. (Eldritch Claw, however, comes from Dragon Magazine, so it's out.) The basics of Warlock (and you can find more details in any number of helpful and Google-able guides) consist of this: You have a light-armored caster-type chassis, complete with good Will save, but with 3/4 BAB progression. Instead of spells, you get "invocations"; you know a much smaller number (at level 20, you only know 12) but unlike spells, these are all-day power-ups. Some, such as Flee the Scene, are at-will usable abilities; others, like See the Unseen, basically give you a 24-hour buff. Further, you can use light armor with no spell failure chance, which is great for anybody casting in combat.

Your staple ability is Eldritch Blast, a neat little ray that deals damage as a touch attack which increases with your Warlock level. There are also invocations that allow you to alter the effects or shape of your Eldritch Blast. One of them, Eldritch Glaive, allows you to turn your once-per-round Eldritch Blast into an iterative melee attack which hits touch AC. (Hence the term Glaivelock, or Warlock using Eldritch Glaive.)

Basically, it's an extremely fun class that's good at a lot of different things. So, for example, if you wanted to be an invisible flying teleporting laser-sniper, you could do that with Warlock. If you wanted to be a melee caster-type who conjures energy weapons and raises the dead, you can do that too. Tons of fun.

[pilvento]

No one mentioned it before but if you go sorcerer, and i like the idea cause a gish needs to burn lots of spells to work and CHA as your main stat is a good choice for a heavy roleplaying, you can try this...

I played this character from lvl 3 to 18 in our first long term adventure with my weekly gaming group (4years)

Monk 2 / battle sorcerer X / Enlightned fist 10

Monk 2 for feats, unarmed dmg and in complete adventurer if im not mistaken take asetic sorcerer feat, allowing you to stack sorcerer and monk lvls for ac bonus and use CHA instead of WIS for all features like AC and stuning fist.

Enlightned fist gives a decent spellcasting progresion and monk abilities plus arcane chaneling so you can deliver touch spells while punching and stuning. At higer lvl you can hold rays in your punchs, desintegration fist ftw.

You can also spend stuning fist uses to enlight your unarmed strikes with elemental dmg and asetic sorcerer gives you the ability to also burn spells to gain X bonus to attack rolls and dmg rolls based on that spell lvl

Its not a very optimized build in early game but is rewarding :smallbiggrin:

[Metahuman1]

I'd be tempted to throw some Arcane Duelist and maybe Abjurant Champion on the above build, but it should work in a low to mid op game. First few levels will be a bit of a hurdle though.


If your going high levels and you don't mind waiting for the really really cool stuff, Wu Gen from complete Arcane is a though. The two high level toy's you'll be most interested in are Body Outside Body (think the Kage Bushin/Shadow Clone Jutsu from Naruto, but better.) and Giant Size (think Giant Man from Marvel Comics Avengers.), as spells that no other caster get's.

The draw back is your giving up a lot of good gish spells to get these, and the one's your giving up come online sooner.



And I gotta say, no tome of battle is a crying shame for a character like this.

[DMVerdandi]

no one mentioned greater mighty wallop?
SERIOUSLY? I am mentioning it now.
More spells just spell more hurt. But that is the top class in really increasing unarmed damage with a spell. Energy weapon+greater magic weapon+ str ^ spell just add to the pain.

[Sir Chuckles]

I'm partial to Duskblade/Unarmed Sword Sage/Jade Pheonix Mage.
Alternatively, Cleric/Crusader or Warblade/Ruby Knight Vindicator.

And, yes, Greater Mighty Wallop will be your best friend.

[Avrodath]

Thank you all for your inputs, that's dearly appreciated. :smallsmile:

The thing is, as we're on a Forgotten Realms RP heavy campaign with ultra low progression (starting at level 1, 1-2 levels/year), some of the (very neat) builds proposed here would be accessible in like... 3or more years to be fully enjoyable. Besides, Dragon magazines, Tome of Battle and campaign specific stuff (like Eberron) are not allowed.

To summarize, the character should be quite operational in the first 3 levels and should not be ultra-optimized, since all of the other players are definitely not optimizers. That's the reason why I called for your great wisdom :smallbiggrin:


So, after a bit of reflexion, I thought about a human barbarian with :

Whirling Frenzy (UA, p66): Rage increases Strength, Ref saves and AC, and allows an extra attack each turn, instead of normal benefit
Spiritual Totem (CC, p 46): Lose fast movement, gain one of the following:
Bear Totem: Improved Grab ability

Feats : Jotunbrud, Improved unarmed attack
Spiked gauntlet, Spiked chain shirt

He should have his own "spellbook" with hand-drawned pictures and gibberish describing his basic "fist magic spells". At the next levels he should become a battle sorcerer practising his fist magic, with things like fist of stone, low level bigby's, touch spells etc.

I know it isn't the killer build, but he sounds fun to me. :smallbiggrin:

I got a couple of questions though.

- With the Jotunbrud feat, am I considered "Large" when I use my Improved grab ability and would it allow me to grab medium ennemies ?

- About the armor spikes damage : do I get a strength damage bonus with the spikes while grappling ? Is it some automatic damage bonus while grappling, or do I have to attack with it?