A tardy theory on Elan’s Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

[Uigeadaily]

I understand that resurrecting old speculation threads is frowned upon, so I hope it’s all right that I created a new one (That's right, I am new here :smalltongue:)
As the title indicates, I’m presenting these thoughts in spite of being ridiculously late to the discussion, so I won’t be surprised if this idea has already been raised, but am interested in what people might think.
These thoughts cropped up after I recently I read this snippet somewhere;


[On Authority] Its hallmark is unquestioning recognition by those who are asked to obey; neither coercion nor persuasion is needed. To remain in authority requires the greatest respect for the person in office. The greatest enemy of authority, therefore, is contempt, and the surest way to undermine it is laughter. "
- Hanna Arendt


For centuries to come, all will know the tale of how Tarquin and The Empire of Blood were cast down by the legendary Elan The Bard.

Or at least, someone who looked like him anyway.

An army dressed up and geared to look just like Elan will storm the Palace and secure the heart of the Empire. Since few soldiers would be willing to take the risk of potentially slaying the real son (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html) amongst the horde of clones, the defending forces will be rendered helpless against the copious amounts of slapstick, bad puns, song, pieing and (Hideous ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideousLaughter.htm)?) laughter.

As a result, Tarquin will most certainly go down in infamy as the subject of the most hilarious and humiliating hostile takeover of all time. While Amun-Zora may be the one to actually strike the final blow, I’m sure the “bardtallions” will be what everyone remembers afterwards.

And the best part of this plan? In spite of the comedic chaos (sorry I'll stop now), Tarquin - a man well aware of genre conventions - will ‘get’ it. If this Elan-esque plan is successful, the outcome would be what he asked for (just not what he wanted) and to me would seem a fitting Oots-verse response to his...would you call it “meta-hubris”?

Any thoughts?

[Kish]

I don't think the plan Elan gave Ian Starshine has been analyzed in any great depth. That is the plan you mean, right? There were a lot of speculation posts about the plan he wanted to talk to Durkon about before that, before it was established as "bring in Julio Scoundrel."

[Uigeadaily]

Oops, sorry I should specify:I speak of Elan's other Secret Plan to deal with Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0941.html). The one he passed on to Ian Starshine that we do not know any details of. :smallsmile:

And by late, I mean by posting up speculation on a topic that may have already been discussed to death.

[Zmeoaice]

Aw great, I hope the Giant doesn't see this because it means it will never happen :smallfrown:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Very interesting speculation. I think it may be a little early to start guessing, given how little is known, but you're welcome to try. I think it's very likely that Elan's plan will involve a takedown of Tarquin that doesn't result in his infamy. Also, the plan must be fairly good for even Ian to think it may work. Since it is Elan making the plan, it is likely it will rely on some storytelling convention.

[Uigeadaily]

Very interesting speculation. I think it may be a little early to start guessing, given how little is known, but you're welcome to try. I think it's very likely that Elan's plan will involve a takedown of Tarquin that doesn't result in his infamy. Also, t:smallfrown:he plan must be fairly good for even Ian to think it may work. Since it is Elan making the plan, it is likely it will rely on some storytelling convention.


I agree with you that the ideal comeuppance for Tarquin would be for him to be completely forgotten about and ah, "denied" of his legacy. Alternatively this idea plays along the lines of a “Be careful what you wish for” outcome.

Why make a plan that relies on Storytelling Convention...against a man whose greatest skill is in recognizing and circumventing them?

That said, to my mind it does take into account the same story conventions that Tarquin intends to manipulate to his advantage, except it twists them into a mockery of his grand designs. Tarquin seeks legendary (failing that, Shakespearean) status for his story, yet the ludicrous and innocent charm of this concept would drag Tarquin’s high-brow ambitions down to Children’s Pantomime levels of silliness (or Puppet Show levels :smallbiggrin:).

In spite of Tarquin’s opinions, I think it would be one thing to appear like a buffoon to some of his enemies to maintain a tactical edge but quite another to be seen as one by everyone long after his demise.


Also.

Custard Pie Siege Engines.

He’ll never see those coming. :smallamused:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm thinking story telling conventions because, well it's Elan we're talking about after all. I suppose he could reuse that giant wooden alpaca.:smalltongue:

[Grey Watcher]

So you're saying his plan is... Send in the Clowns? :smallconfused:

[Uigeadaily]

I'm thinking story telling conventions because, well it's Elan we're talking about after all. I suppose he could reuse that giant wooden alpaca.:smalltongue:

True...considering The Order recently made some allies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html) within the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing, it should not take too much effort to harvest all the Potato Salad they could need for it.

I would be interested in seeing what The EoB Guard Manual has to say on dealing with that.




So you're saying his plan is... Send in the Clowns? :smallconfused:

After they establish a circusvallation, yes.

[veti]

So you're saying his plan is... Send in the Clowns? :smallconfused:

Better, it's Send in the Clone Clowns. For double the punnage.

I... don't think it'd be an easy matter to outfit an entire army (particularly on the Western Continent, where most people seem to be dark-haired and mid-tone-skinned) to look convincingly like the (very pale, blond) Elan. But it's a nice image.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

True...considering The Order recently made some allies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html) within the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing, it should not take too much effort to harvest all the Potato Salad they could need for it.

I would be interested in seeing what The EoB Guard Manual has to say on dealing with that.

Mainly I'm interested in seeing that because I really want to know what the other steps were. :smalltongue:

[CaDzilla]

There are 2 things that Elan might not have accounted for: SPG and Jacinda

[Reddish Mage]

Very interesting speculation. I think it may be a little early to start guessing, given how little is known, but you're welcome to try. I think it's very likely that Elan's plan will involve a takedown of Tarquin that doesn't result in his infamy. Also, t:smallfrown:he plan must be fairly good for even Ian to think it may work. Since it is Elan making the plan, it is likely it will rely on some storytelling convention.

I agree, the plan is going to be something that would not result in Tarquin's infamy (which we know, would mean Tarquin wins), it must be good to satisfy Ian, and it will rely on storytelling convention.

It may seem a little crazy, but could Tarquin be tricked into taking on a heroic redemptive role? If Tarquin is obligated to follow the laws of narrative he would obligated to follow-through on a change in role once assumed and this would destroy Tarquin as a villain. If such a scheme were to occur, Tarquin would probably have to die, as it is difficult to truly redeem someone as evil as Tarquin through something other than a heroic sacrifice (see tv tropes: redemption equals death (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath)).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There are 2 things that Elan might not have accounted for: SPG and Jacinda

He knows they exist, at the very least, for the same reasons he recognized Laurin: he saw them in the flashback panels. Whether he knows what they're capable is another thing, but he can at least plan for his father possibly having four high-level people to help him.

[CaDzilla]

He knows they exist, at the very least, for the same reasons he recognized Laurin: he saw them in the flashback panels. Whether he knows what they're capable is another thing, but he can at least plan for his father possibly having four high-level people to help him.

He can probably recognize Jacinda as the rogue, but he might have trouble on SPG. Though he might have included him in he plan and knows everything about him due to some insane use of bardic knowledge.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He can probably recognize Jacinda as the rogue, but he might have trouble on SPG. Though he might have included him in he plan and knows everything about him due to some insane use of bardic knowledge.

I'd say that being able to recognize people from flashbacks is already an insane use of bardic knowledge. :smalltongue:

[Zarzar]

I love this idea, (E for Elan-detta!) despite the fact that I think Elan's plan would involve a wedding, and the bride, Amun-Zora, would pull a total Lindsay Lohan and turn the legacy of Tarquin into a trailer-trash comedy.

[Mike Havran]

"Send in a team of Elans without the real Elan" seems to be a pretty nice plan. But Tarquin has a Ring of True Seeing and won't hesitate to use the ever-popular Evil Overlord's ''Kill them all!'' command.

I'm pretty sure Amun Zora isn't in a position to muster a big enough army to conquer EoB by military force. This would be an assassination-like vendetta.

[Anarion]

While the OP's plan is much more hilarious, I actually think that Elan's plan to overthrow his dad is one of his more serious points.

My best guess is that the plan is all about the spread of information. Tarquin's scheme relies on expanding his control through a combination of invasion, betrayal, and then rebellion and salvation causing small city-states to join up willingly with one of Tarquin's three empires. Remember that when Tarquin conquered openly, he held his throne for less than a year because of the volatility of the Western Continent.

So, the best way to overthrow Tarquin is to destroy the cooperative scheme between the three empires by revealing it. Cities might surrender to the wrong empire, betray their own "reinforcements" or plan to backstab the leaders of their own "rebellion" if they really understood what was happening to them. Moreover, if it were fully revealed, through careful, trustworthy channels, that the three empires are in cahoots, there could be an alliance of all the other Western Continent Warlords that would come together to overthrow everything Tarquin worked to build.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

While the OP's plan is much more hilarious, I actually think that Elan's plan to overthrow his dad is one of his more serious points.

My best guess is that the plan is all about the spread of information. Tarquin's scheme relies on expanding his control through a combination of invasion, betrayal, and then rebellion and salvation causing small city-states to join up willingly with one of Tarquin's three empires. Remember that when Tarquin conquered openly, he held his throne for less than a year because of the volatility of the Western Continent.

So, the best way to overthrow Tarquin is to destroy the cooperative scheme between the three empires by revealing it. Cities might surrender to the wrong empire, betray their own "reinforcements" or plan to backstab the leaders of their own "rebellion" if they really understood what was happening to them. Moreover, if it were fully revealed, through careful, trustworthy channels, that the three empires are in cahoots, there could be an alliance of all the other Western Continent Warlords that would come together to overthrow everything Tarquin worked to build.
I also think that this is the most likely way that Tarquin will be overthrown. Spill his secret, and his power will start to collapse.

[Jay R]

For centuries to come, all will know the tale of how Tarquin and The Empire of Blood were cast down ...

As a result, Tarquin will most certainly go down in infamy ...

This is what Tarquin wants.

I prefer to believe that the plan is to simply kill the Warlord early in the revolution as one of the uninteresting nameless, faceless servants of the real enemy - the Empress of Blood.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

This is what Tarquin wants.

I prefer to believe that the plan is to simply kill the Warlord early in the revolution as one of the uninteresting nameless, faceless servants of the real enemy - the Empress of Blood.

I believe that the OP's point was that Tarquin's infamy would not be due to how amazing or villainous he was, but how lame his final fall actually was. Not the infamy Tarquin wants. The plan you suggested doesn't seem to fit with Ian's comments.

[veti]

"Send in a team of Elans without the real Elan" seems to be a pretty nice plan. But Tarquin has a Ring of True Seeing and won't hesitate to use the ever-popular Evil Overlord's ''Kill them all!'' command.

True Seeing doesn't help against mundane disguises.

On the other hand, he'd probably give the order anyway. After all, if there is a high-level adventurer concealed among hundreds of low-level mooks, what easier way to find them than by giving that order to your own low-level mooks?

"Sacrificing minions: is there ANY problem it can't solve?" Whatever, this is not that problem.

[Lassan]

Hi! Been thinking about this a bit, and this is how I would do it.

While there is a LOT of appeal to "SENDING IN THE CLOWNS" to take down Tarquin, i actually think the whole using the flow of information against his regime, is the more Viable route.

With one notable addition.

The information should point towards Tarquin having gone soft, betraying his allies, becoming good, and choosing to be a hero.

he won't have of course, but his allies will start to doubt his evil intentions. As they doubt they will begin to take overt military action against him, forcing him to raise his blade against his
own evil empire.

After every 'victory' against his 'tyrannical' enemies, bards will sing his praises, and make sure everyone on the continent knows that Tarquin is the greatest, most noble hero that ever lived.

Only his allies will know better, but the more they try to murder him for it, the more he will be FORCED into living the role of a hero.

For a sadist like Tarquin, this is the greatest punishment he could ever be forced to endure. And that's why it would not only work, it's also going to rank up there with V's familicide spell in terms of magnitude of retribution, when/if it happens in comic.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Interesting hypothesis, especially about casting Tarquin as the hero. However, I don't see why the rest of the Vector Legion would send armies against him, since they together could probably take him out. I'm also not sure why they would believe the rumors against him.

[Lassan]

Easy. Because they are already planing to at some point.

Tarquin and his pals, have what, in real world economic terms, is known as a "cartel" It's the business model of choice for a lot of drug lods by the way. The idea is to self limit production of a product, for the good of the collective as a whole. Even if the profits are insanely high, since these are used by meglomanic/paranoid types the potential to cheat to gain an advantage over the other members of the cartel, so that you can claim the whole market as a monopoly, is usually irresistable to one or more members of ANY cartel.

Which means that every member of Tarquins group, is already PLANNING on backstabbing every other member. All Elan's plan needs to do is

A. make it seem like Tarquin is making his move NOW.

B. make the public belive that a great military general has become their champion.

C. Set up some narrative events that surround Tarquin with do gooders that demand he prove himself a hero against his old allies constantly

Put those together, and you have Tarquin reluctantly taking the role of hero, against his own evil empire, winning, ruling a continent as good ruler should, and hating every second of it. There is even a moderately high chance of him switching alignment to good, which he would instantly realize to be a threat to his identity, and make him hate the process even more, regardless of whether or not he stays evil.

[Lassan]

Oh skill checks involved on the above:

Knowledge Economics: DC 10
Knowledge Crime: DC 10
Knowledge Genre Convention: DC 10
Craft Narrative Device: DC 25

[Lassan]

I'm pretty sure Haley would be willing and able to help Elan with the Knowledge Economics, and Knowledge Crime skill checks, I suspect she used a combination of, sex, pillow talk, and sock puppets to explain how cartels work to him.

[Lassan]

That's why they would believe Tarquin betrayed them. As for the armies bit, these guys are all about equal power tier, cold, ruthless and calculating and have a strong knowledge of each other's vulnerabilities. They would all prefer to use assassins or armies to outdo each other, because the odds of winning in direct combat vs each other, aren't good enough.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If they believe that Tarquin is planning on backstabbing them (which seems unlikely as these guys are all part of the same adventuring party) then it would be better to use existing divisions in the group than to invent new ones. And as for the cartel point, what product is the Legion self-limiting?

Also, I seriously doubt that an army (which would probably be made up of rather low-level people) would be able to take down Tarquin. Same thing with an assassin. Even if Tarquin knows all of, say, Miron's weaknesses, that doesn't mean Miron wouldn't be able to take him down in a fight. Or if all the Vector Legion went against him.

Finally,

Double Posting
Posting twice in a row is generally frowned upon. If you are responding to multiple points, please use quotes and other post formatting to clarify this. Please use the Edit option to modify information in a post instead of immediately making a new one. If you do accidentally double post, you can delete the extra post under the Edit option.

[Lassan]

Existing divisions in the group? like negotiating to own a rift of cosmic significance and eldritch power, in hopes it can be an edge?

Seeing that Tarquin is willing to kill his own son, as evidence of him being entirely untrustworthy?

hmmm, given their years of history, that's probably only tip of iceberg.

Remember Tarquin's motto 'business first'

Note his Vampire Cleric pretty much planned to win the whole Continent, by merely living 3-4 decades past the rest. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html

This by the way, answers the whole 'cartel' question. They do have a limited good. They have exactly one continent to pillage.

They find looting it together is easier, and all hope to outdo all others to be the sole owner of it, after all the hard work is done and they ne longer need each other's help.

After all, in the end, there can be Only One.

[Lassan]

AS for the second question, the answer is in the very same comic.

They don't plan on winning a headlong battle vs each other. It's all about attrition.

Sure Tarquin has all knids of insane combat tricks, and all the spell casters have cool spells and wands.

The spellcasters are dead in the water when their spells per day, and power points are gone, and they NEED a safehouse to retreat to while they prep their spells

Tarquin, as a non-spellcaster is VERY gear dependent; even with bags of holding has only so much combat gear as the good stuff cost money.

Moridken's disjunction comes to mind, with a the liberal zoning away from his seats of power so he can't rest, can't recharge or replace his broken gear.

I forget which comic in the Azure City Arc, that someone explains to haley that in war, the encounters aren't designed 'fair' If 1 in 20 attacks hits you at all, because a natural 20 is needed to hit you, than you can be hurt, If you can be hurt, running out of potions, spells, and cover will eventually kill you, period.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Existing divisions in the group? like negotiating to own a rift of cosmic significance and eldritch power, in hopes it can be an edge?
Laurin has no idea what the power of the rift is, and she is trying to use it to gain her daughter more, not give herself an edge.


Seeing that Tarquin is willing to kill his own son, as evidence of him being entirely untrustworthy?
Seems like Laurin approved of that killing, and in fact helped to prevent Nale from returning.


Note his Vampire Cleric pretty much planned to win the whole Continent, by merely living 3-4 decades past the rest. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html
Something that Tarquin was fine with.


This by the way, answers the whole 'cartel' question. They do have a limited good. They have exactly one continent to pillage.
Are they self-limiting that good?


They find looting it together is easier, and all hope to outdo all others to be the sole owner of it, after all the hard work is done and they ne longer need each other's help.

After all, in the end, there can be Only One.
Their plan requires there to be more than one. The Vector Legion joined together because they can't pull off this plan with only one person. If one person tries to combine their realms, some larger nation, or a group of smaller nations will combine and destroy them.

[Lassan]

It's really just easier to cut off your rivals from their ability to resupply, and deal with them, when thy have no gear, no spells, and no means of fighting back, at all, than to go toe-to-toe with them.

As far as these guys are concerned, living beings are just another resource for them to push around so they can win.

Play a losing game of starcraft, command and conquer, or League of legends, and tell me resource use is not the deciding factor in a clash between equally matched champions.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

AS for the second question, the answer is in the very same comic.

They don't plan on winning a headlong battle vs each other. It's all about attrition.

Sure Tarquin has all knids of insane combat tricks, and all the spell casters have cool spells and wands.

The spellcasters are dead in the water when their spells per day, and power points are gone, and they NEED a safehouse to retreat to while they prep their spells

Tarquin, as a non-spellcaster is VERY gear dependent; even with bags of holding has only so much combat gear as the good stuff cost money.

Moridken's disjunction comes to mind, with a the liberal zoning away from his seats of power so he can't rest, can't recharge or replace his broken gear.

I forget which comic in the Azure City Arc, that someone explains to haley that in war, the encounters aren't designed 'fair' If 1 in 20 attacks hits you at all, because a natural 20 is needed to hit you, than you can be hurt, If you can be hurt, running out of potions, spells, and cover will eventually kill you, period.

Attacking Tarquin with an army would waste lots of valuable resources and wouldn't be as effective as attacking Tarquin head on. Also, casting Disjunction is something that would require a high level caster, not an army. If the rest of the Vector Legion attacks Tarquin head on, then they will be able to defeat him without having to resort to attrition.


It's really just easier to cut off your rivals from their ability to resupply, and deal with them, when thy have no gear, no spells, and no means of fighting back, at all, than to go toe-to-toe with them.

As far as these guys are concerned, living beings are just another resource for them to push around so they can win.

Play a losing game of starcraft, command and conquer, or League of legends, and tell me resource use is not the deciding factor in a clash between equally matched champions.

In order to cut off their rivals, they will have to engage with then at some point. Sending armies won't be able accomplish that. If the Vector Legion got together, separated Tarquin from his stuff and engaged with him, taking him down would be easy.

Starcraft is hardly an appropriate metaphor for this situation, since it is about armies fighting each other, not one person fighting an army.

You'll notice that regardless of which one of us is right in this debate, this really doesn't help your original theory, which required that Tarquin win.

[Lassan]

Dude, you are missing a lot of Sense motive checks here.

The Vector Guild aren't friends. They are all Evil alignments, working together in an alliance of necessity.

Once they have enough control over the continent, they will turn on each other.

The reason it hasn't happened yet, is that their are still too many neutral factions not under their control.

As far as the whole cartel thing, they ARE self limiting.

They can't attack each other, and maintain their alliance. Once all the neutral camps are gone, the only way for them to expand their power will be to undo each other.

Even provided my theory of how Elan might resolve it might not pan out, the fact that they all plan on backstabbing each other, the very instant the have the means, opportunity, and need, is beyond reasonable doubt.

[Lassan]

Starcraft is hardly an appropriate metaphor for this situation, since it is about armies fighting each other, not one person fighting an army

I agree that starcraft isn't the best metaphor. League of legends, however albiet at a smaller scale is though, as it combines heroic units, with ordinary units. Ever lose a match to "Winions"?

[Lassan]

I've played a few games that match the situation a bit better, but being from the 16-bit era, and a bit uncommon to begin with, you are unlikely to have even heard of them.

[Lassan]

In order to cut off their rivals, they will have to engage with then at some point. Sending armies won't be able accomplish that. If the Vector Legion got together, separated Tarquin from his stuff and engaged with him, taking him down would be easy.

As for the vector Legion getting together to take down tarquin, sure it's possible.

It might even go down that way. But hells would it be hard work with how paranoid he is.

He probably has every anti-teleportation, and anti scrying mechanism available for his use in his seat of power, and a few on his person

a front door approach would be tricky, because, well army, traps, and lack of knowledge of defenses

On a mission anything can happen, and hey he's a master of psychology. You don't know who on your team is going to back him out to take YOU out at any given time

Even provided you caught him without full gear, he probably has a few dozen ways to escape to safe houses at any given time.

he's got wit, power, resources, and a LOT of money, to the point he can dine on phoenix livers as an ordinary meal.

good luck getting rid of him while he's still on top

[Lassan]

Which is why i'm still fond of my theory. to restate

1. The Vector Legion, being Evil backstabbing villans, are all planning on murdering each other already
2. Tarquin probally would have an military/psychology edge on any single one of them
3. Everyone in the Vector Legion is aware of his meglomania, and flair for the dramatic
4. Elan would probally be best off defeating him, by using his greatest strength, his knowledge of genre conventions, against him
5. It really wouldn't be hard to convince the vector Legion that he had betrayed them, or was making his move early
6. Joe and Jane public don't know him as anything other than a general. Which means if he's advertised as a hero, they will believe it
7. Tarquin's own narrative sense, and sense of self preservation would force him to play the hero, if he could A. win, and B. would die if he refused.
8. If the leader of Azure City could hide his alignment from his own army of Paladins, i'm sure Tarquin could manage to be the lawful evil guy, who ruled a truly just Lawful good society.
9. Elan's sense of dramatic flair, and his grief over his brothers murder would find that VERY appealing.
10. the 'inspire' factor adds a lot of military strength to Tarquin. Upon acting like a legendary hero long enough, the masses would turn on their old tyrants pretty damn quick.
After all they've been terrified for decades/centuries. Who wouldn't want to rally behind the flag of a "True Hero" And again. as Tarquin has been pulling crap out of the Evil Overlord's
handbook to prevent them from showing, up he must know how to BE one if he had to.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Dude, you are missing a lot of Sense motive checks here.

The Vector Guild aren't friends. They are all Evil alignments, working together in an alliance of necessity.

Once they have enough control over the continent, they will turn on each other.

This is where we disagree. I think the Vector Guild can be friends, Evil alignments or not. They might not be friends like some of our Good characters are, but that doesn't mean they are willing to backstabbing each other.

If they turn on each other, all they will do is bring down the Elves on them, which ruins their plan.


I agree that starcraft isn't the best metaphor. League of legends, however albiet at a smaller scale is though, as it combines heroic units, with ordinary units. Ever lose a match to "Winions"?

I don't play League of Legends, so that's an even worse metaphor to me.


As for the vector Legion getting together to take down tarquin, sure it's possible.

It might even go down that way. But hells would it be hard work with how paranoid he is.

He probably has every anti-teleportation, and anti scrying mechanism available for his use in his seat of power, and a few on his person

a front door approach would be tricky, because, well army, traps, and lack of knowledge of defenses

On a mission anything can happen, and hey he's a master of psychology. You don't know who on your team is going to back him out to take YOU out at any given time

Even provided you caught him without full gear, he probably has a few dozen ways to escape to safe houses at any given time.

he's got wit, power, resources, and a LOT of money, to the point he can dine on phoenix livers as an ordinary meal.

good luck getting rid of him while he's still on top
These arguments, especially regarding his resources, also work as counterpoint to the idea of attacking him with an army.

Please, make one post, as it makes it much easier to read and respond to and it follows forum rules.

[Lassan]

I appreciate the heads up on reading the forum rules, i'll get on that. as for the other matters,


This is where we disagree. I think the Vector Guild can be friends, Evil alignments or not. They might not be friends like some of our Good characters are, but that doesn't mean they are willing to backstabbing each other.

If they turn on each other, all they will do is bring down the Elves on them, which ruins their plan.

So hypothetically, how many 'friends' do you have that you trust them to not kill you like they killed their own son? Or their many wives?

As for the elves, they are good for secret ops stuff. They don't have the elf-power to take on an whole continent once it's taken over.

Besides they are elves. Not all of them give enough damn to fix that big of a mess.

again the vectors only have to work together till one of them owns enough of the continent that they think that they can win over and take the rest without the help of the others. Until then it is in their best interest to have as many hidden assets as possible that the others don't know about.

If you can't accept the idea that evil mass-murdering dictators might not be good at sharing, friendship, or trusting each other's good intentions, we really don't have much more to discuss.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So hypothetically, how many 'friends' do you have that you trust them to not kill you like they kill their own son? Or their many wives?
So far none of my friends have killed their hypothetical sons. If their son had killed my friend, then I can't say I would be sorry to see him killed. As for wives, we have no evidence Tarquin for certain murdered his wives. Besides, assuming that I'm in a position similar to other members of the Vector Legion, Tarquin having murdered a few more people wouldn't make much of a difference to me.


As for the elves, they are good for secret ops stuff. They don't have the elf-power to take on an whole continent once it's taken over.

Besides they are elves. Not all of them give enough damn to fix that big of a mess.
I'm not seeing much support for this. Tarquin certainly seems to think the Elves (or someone else) would be able to crush them if they become one large empire. True, we have only seen the Elves with their secret ops team, but that doesn't mean that the group that controls large portion of the continent would have little to no army. Also, if there was a large country that neighbored the Elves that had shown its desire to conquer, I would work on taking it down.


If you can't accept the idea that evil mass-murdering dictators might not be good at sharing, friendship, or trusting each other's good intentions, we really don't have much more to discuss.

And if you can't accept the opposite, then I don't really care to continue this discussion either.

[Loreweaver15]

We already have on-screen evidence that members of the Vector Legion are just straight-up buddies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html) willing to settle disagreements amicably due to their friendship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html), and that they care (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html) about each other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html). Yes, they're Evil, but they wouldn't just assume that Tarquin's betrayed them, especially since they know him so well and understand the way he thinks (even though they think he's really silly and likes to waste resources). They know what his Plan is, and betraying them is not a part of it or any "better" plan.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We already have on-screen evidence that members of the Vector Legion are just straight-up buddies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html) willing to settle disagreements amicably due to their friendship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html), and that they care (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html) about each other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html). Yes, they're Evil, but they wouldn't just assume that Tarquin's betrayed them, especially since they know him so well and understand the way he thinks (even though they think he's really silly and likes to waste resources). They know what his Plan is, and betraying them is not a part of it or any "better" plan.

Yes, thank you for putting this in a much better way than I could. The Vector Legion has worked together for decades and have shown that they do care for each other in some way. They might bicker, but no more than the Order does.

[Lassan]

@Loreweaver.

You aren't seeing some obvious tells in those comics that these guys aren't
"just Straight up buddies" That's them arguing amongst themselves. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html.

we also don't see them fixing arguments because of "friendship" here. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html Malak pulls out "The Rules"
You were the one who demanded that I put aside my personal grievance for this crucial mission -as per our long standing protocols.

This is them settling a dispute by the rules of their guild charter.

The citation for them caring about each other has Tarquin murder his own son. We also don't know if Laurin is pissed because she liked Malak or not. We just know, she is pissed.

If a former member of the gang, and a family member is "fair game" surely they won't waste a moment's breath if they think Tarquin has betrayed them.

And the follow up comic you had for them "caring" is "Eye for an Eye" revenge logic. These people don't forgive. They might be working together now, but that doesn't mean they will overlook one of their own slipping up, or even appearing to.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0924.html

here Tarquin is only able to convince his "friends" to help by calling in a 12 year old favor to one, and giving a favor to the other.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html

And here, one of said friends forces the payment of her "favor" by blackmailing Tarquin into it, or refusing to cast a needed teleportation for him unless he agreed to the specific one she wanted.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html

Add to the fact she's a Psion. She claims all she wants for her 'daughter' is for her to get away from the life she lives but that doesn't make sense.

A despot of her tier should be able to have already done so without needing any additional resources.
Which means either her 'daughter' is not quite human, and needs A LOT of water, OR that her daughter being a 'plumber' is a placeholder cover story for what she's actually up to, unknown to the others. Or both

She's a Psion. Mind tricks are pretty much a class feature.

Malak by the way, is well liked in the group for a reason. he was the party member who's plan to "win" was to merely outlive the others. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html
Of course everybody in the linear guild got along with him. He was the only party member who's win condition did not DEPEND on the murder of the others. Just because we don't know everybody else's, doesn't mean they don't have one.

From the evidence I have provided, it appears that the Linear Guild is

A. a rules based organization, with a Lawful Evil maniac at it's head. (Tarquin)
B. it's members play by the rules, so that they can backstab, or alternately outlive each other to win.
C. The only reason Malak was well-liked, was he had no plan to backstab the others.
D. They resolve disputes by trading 'favors' or by citing their guild charter's rules.
E. If I was a lawful Evil dictator, i would have written those rules to be most favorable to myself.
F. There is some hints at outright deception, or at least misdirection occurring between members of the guild, for example Laurin.

[pseudom]

Egads this is derailed. I don't think they'r planning on backstabbing eachother. They are LAWFUL (or at least Tarquin is) evil after all.laurin never says she wants her daughter to be the one that pipes the water. She implies that she's going to build a city there. Laurin probably wants her daughter to stay as a plumber.

[Loreweaver15]

Egads this is derailed. I don't think they'r planning on backstabbing eachother. They are LAWFUL (or at least Tarquin is) evil after all.laurin never says she wants her daughter to be the one that pipes the water. She implies that she's going to build a city there. Laurin probably wants her daughter to stay as a plumber.

She DID say that her daughter, implied by the "some lucky plumber" line, would be getting the piping job.

[Lassan]

Quote Originally Posted by pseudom View Post
Egads this is derailed. I don't think they'r planning on backstabbing eachother. They are LAWFUL (or at least Tarquin is) evil after all.laurin never says she wants her daughter to be the one that pipes the water. She implies that she's going to build a city there. Laurin probably wants her daughter to stay as a plumber.



She DID say that her daughter, implied by the "some lucky plumber" line, would be getting the piping job.

Agreed this is derailed, as i seem to be defending my theory based on the Vector Legion having enough mistrust to each other to back-stab Tarquin. It's kinda annoying being the only person here who doesn't trust the word of mass-murdering dictators at face value.

however while making Tarquin the hero might be a hard sell Narratively, how about this alternate version?


Helm of Opposite Alignment
This metal hat looks like a typical helmet. When placed upon the head, however, its curse immediately takes effect (Will DC 15 negates). On a failed save, the alignment of the wearer is radically altered to an alignment as different as possible from the former alignment—good to evil, chaotic to lawful, neutral to some extreme commitment (LE, LG, CE, or CG). Alteration in alignment is mental as well as moral, and the individual changed by the magic thoroughly enjoys his new outlook. A character who succeeds on his save can continue to wear the helmet without suffering the effect of the curse, but if he takes it off and later puts it on again, another save is required. The curse only works once; that is, a character whose alignment has been changed cannot change it again by donning the helmet a second time.

Only a wish or a miracle can restore former alignment, and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. (In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.) If a character of a class with an alignment requirement is affected, an atonement spell is needed as well if the curse is to be obliterated. When a helm of opposite alignment has functioned once, it loses its magical properties.

Strong transmutation; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; Price 4,000 gp;Weight 3 lb.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm

get his will save debuffed,

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?237900-Ways-to-lower-Will-save

(look a whole thread on how to do that....)

and my plan no longer depends on narrative contrivance, but rather a plucky thieves guild literally turning their Lawful Evil oppressor, into a Robinhood styled champion for their cause.

[Loreweaver15]

Helming Tarquin would be super Evil. Not really something Elan would approve of.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Helming Tarquin would be super Evil. Not really something Elan would approve of.

Agreed. Not to mention, helming Tarquin doesn't seem to fit with plan.

[Lassan]

Helming Tarquin would be super Evil. Not really something Elan would approve of.
Agreed. Not to mention, helming Tarquin doesn't seem to fit with Ian's on the plan.

That's actually a "does the ends justify the means" kind of gming question. Is magically forcing someone to shift in alignment from lawful evil to chaotic good, in order to topple a murderous evil empire mean it's evil automatically?

Most savvy gm's will talk about how alignments are more 'guidelines' than 'straightjackets'

We are talking about a game that has mechanically created prestige classes like the gray guard, http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_guard

That Rich uses that school of thought, is abundently clear both from Elan's actions;

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html

he's proven more than willing to do the occasional **** move,

and morally flexible enough to stomach his girlfriends' occasional murder

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html

and

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html


You're sure you're not mad at me?

I think so, just as long as you're sure that she was really, really bad

If it makes you feel any better, i once saw crystal head-butt an elderly gnome woman into a coma.

It does actually, thanks.

To the his NPC's and how morality in his world works in general;

Paladins fall but not all the way.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html

Neutral mages take a turn for the worse.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html

And Lawful Good heaven takes into account your attempts, to be Lawful and Good more than if you actually are Lawful and Good all the time.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

I'd like to leave this thread soon, as we are running out of ways to fundamentally disagree politely.

To sum up:

We have very different views on how the vector legion do business, how the operate and whether or not they are friends.

We also seem to disagree on whether or not the 'heroes' would consider certain acts too distasteful, if not outright evil.


Luckily for us, we aren't Rich Burlew. We don't have to decide how this is gonna pan out.

Odds are that he has something cooked that will blow all our fan theories away.

(although I would be tickled pink if I called it on this one)

[Lizard Lord]

Hi! Been thinking about this a bit, and this is how I would do it.

While there is a LOT of appeal to "SENDING IN THE CLOWNS" to take down Tarquin, i actually think the whole using the flow of information against his regime, is the more Viable route.

With one notable addition.

The information should point towards Tarquin having gone soft, betraying his allies, becoming good, and choosing to be a hero.

he won't have of course, but his allies will start to doubt his evil intentions. As they doubt they will begin to take overt military action against him, forcing him to raise his blade against his
own evil empire.

After every 'victory' against his 'tyrannical' enemies, bards will sing his praises, and make sure everyone on the continent knows that Tarquin is the greatest, most noble hero that ever lived.

Only his allies will know better, but the more they try to murder him for it, the more he will be FORCED into living the role of a hero.

For a sadist like Tarquin, this is the greatest punishment he could ever be forced to endure. And that's why it would not only work, it's also going to rank up there with V's familicide spell in terms of magnitude of retribution, when/if it happens in comic.
I highly doubt that Tarquin's allies would murder him for nothing more than informed goodness. The ones we have seen so far seem too smart for that. Nothing about the rumors you say the bards are spreading makes me think that anyone would consider the plan to be in jeopardy, which is all that really matters.

Unlike your typical Cartel, none of them want to control the entire product, because if they do the plan won't work. Considering the plan is Tarquin's idea and he seems like he pushes it more than anyone I would think the others would want more than just rumors before they are convinced he abandoned it. Especially since he is only doing what he is actually suppose to do.

Plus you need to remember that they were all in the same adventuring party. Evil or not they counted on each other to stay alive. I would think that would warrent a little more trust than your typical paranoid Cartel. (Not that they won't backstab each other, just that they would need a better reason than this.)

[Lassan]

hey! thanks for the insightful comment on my idea.

I'll grant you that my opener spark for why they would think he had betrayed them, as written is a bit weak, but perhaps salvageable.

I also agree that none of them want to betray each other immediately, because their cartel doesn't control the continent yet.

That part of cartel thinking would most likely come much later, say a decade or 3.

I do like your point that that because of their history even if they might one day backstab each other, it'll be a big deal for them.

that's not to say it can't/won't happen, it's more that it'll be a big deal.

based on your arguments, for my plan to be savable at all,

I'll say that the part A of my plan, would probally also have some form of 'forced contrivance' where Tarquin was forced to do a heroic deed.

-which would be astoundingly hard to pull off by the way.

I'll admit that initiating my plan through narrative means would be excessively complicated and have a lot of inherent risks, perhaps a few storytelling cheats.

so how about this? Lizard Lord, how doable do you think the alternate starter I pitched, where they use a lot of will save debuffs and a helm of opposite alignment?

[Loreweaver15]

so how about this? Lizard Lord, how doable do you think the alternate starter I pitched, where they use a lot of will save debuffs and a helm of opposite alignment?

I still maintain that it's hideously out of character for Elan to advocate messing with someone's soul like that.

[Lassan]

Loreweaver,


so how about this? Lizard Lord, how doable do you think the alternate starter I pitched, where they use a lot of will save debuffs and a helm of opposite alignment?

I wasn't really feeling the need to hear your opinion on the matter again. I was asking Lizard Lord for a 'second opinion'.

I suspect he may disagree with me on this one, but I want to hear him say why as he has been the first person on this thread who has been able to call out my flawed logic successfully.

If he or anyone else can give me a valid reason why Elan as a person wouldn't do that, that's more rooted in his persona, than his alignment, I'll buy it.

Just saying that it's hideously out of character for Elan doesn't cut it.

Telling me what parts of Elan's character would prevent it would.

edit * dammit i reread your post loreweaver. You did give a good reason. messing with someone's soul even for a good reason is not something elan would do*