Goblins are not stupid/stupid... show them some love

[Korahir]

While doing some research for a homebrew setting I read adventure paths of which I knew they include goblin tribes and a lot of goblin NPCs and I noticed this:

Goblins are alyways written to be hopeless cases. None of them would survive long enough to reproduce.

Many NPCs, who aren't goblins, seem to have reached a point where they are either played by their respective alignment or even their attributes. Almost every goblin NPC is close to stupid/stupid.

I'll admit most of them are stupid/evil and some are chaotic/stupid but I have yet to read a goblin encounter that isn't either or even worse both at the same time, which is what i call stupid/stupid.

A goblin NPC as stated in the MMI has the same INT and WIS attributes as an elf NPC (Charisma is worse). Despite this, roleplaying advice for unnamed goblins as given in adventure paths constantly involve things like: "Have a goblin stop his attack to snatch some food from a table." "A goblin stops pursue of a PC to kill a dog and eat it." "A goblin torches a house with alchemists fire instead of throwing it at a PC." No such nonsense is suggested when PCs meet low level elf NPCs (Imagine: "One of the elves hugs a tree instead of attacking every round.")

Some examples (Contains spoiler, keeping them to a minimum):
Red Hand of Doom(3.5):

Saarvith (CE, WIS 13, INT 8) is stationed with his rival and his friend. If the PCs capture Saarvith and killed his rival, his attitude changes from hostile to unfriendly. If they also kill his friend, his attitude changes to indifferent. This is explained by the fact that Saarvith has poor self esteem and thinks he only has reached his position due to his special relationship to his friend. The very same the PCs just killed. That is just poor story writing and makes Saarvith chaotic/stupid.

Rise of the runelords(PF):

Gogmurt (NE, WIS 16 INT 8) sacrifices goblin refugees to the "howling hole" because he is unhappy about recent decisions his chieftain made. He does this despite being afraid of retaliation made by the "longshanks" from Sandpoint. Using them to bolster your own strength seems very unlikely I guess. -> Stupid/evil.
Note: The howling hole is a bunyip in an aquatic cavern. Gogmurt has +9 Knowledge(nature). If this would be an elven hideaway they would know exactly what kind of monster lives down there, with no appropriate skill at all.

We be goblins (PF)

One of the goblins can write. For some reason ("stealing words out of your mind") this is forbidden and he is expelled from the tribe. His hut is burned down. A whole tribe of stupid/stupid.


So what is this rant all about? Just show the goblins some love. Play them as you stat them. The next time you want a rather funny encounter with a mad NPC make him dwarf, elf, human, whatever. Just not goblin. Instead why not include BBEGoblin in your next session or adventure.

[Anlashok]

It's especially silly given that Goblins in both 3.5/PF are a 10 int race.

It's a bit stranger in Pathfinder too because one of their racial archetypes is alchemist.

[Kudaku]

I think 10 wisdom goblins doing nonsensical things is the perfect example of how ability scores and racial cultures don't really translate very well.

[Red Fel]

See, I've generally played goblins less "stupid" and more "manic." Their minds operate differently; scattered, a bit frantic, but no less intelligent by default. (Mind you, this was before Warcraft gave us its Goblin Engineers and so forth.) I had one goblin Psion (specifically, a Blue) who basically suffered from a series of exciting neuroses - he was paranoid and delusional; he had issues about personal spaces, enclosed spaces, and open spaces; he used several different aliases, even switching between them in the course of a single conversation; he employed his psionic powers primarily to keep people the heck away from him. Admittedly, this made sense; Blues are alternately admired and feared within goblin communities.

Irving/Reginald/Albert/whatever was no dumb bunny. He was extremely canny, and exceptionally bright. (I need not remind you that a Psion's key stat is Int.) And I didn't assume that other goblins were stupid, either. (It's hard to play a paranoid character who assumes everyone out to get him is an idiot. And goblins were family, so of course they wanted him dead.)

But he was seriously mental. Totally off his flipping nut.

[Kamin_Majere]

Yeah I've never understood why goblins are the kicking boys of the D&D world. I'm my home brew setting I've actually made goblins kingdom builders. They ebb and flow through out history but most of the huge cities and nations that the other races call home were goblin creations before they inevitably have reasons to break their nation apart.

I play them as racially and tribally divided so while they can work together great works and kingdoms are formed, as the tensions play out they end up suffering through roman-esque collapses that allow the other races to pick up the pieces while they devolve back to their tribes and generally stay out of the world for a few hundred years. (basically they are real world humans :smalltongue: )

That way you can have the tribe of goblins be a low level adversary (still not stupid though) but if I want to I can have the beginnings of a goblin nation form that puts them easily at the same level as the other nations if not stronger so they can be a real world threat that others have to deal with

[BWR]

Goblins actually have their own realm in Mystara. High Gobliny (southwest of Hobgobland, north-east of Bugburbia, north of Red Orcland and due west of South Gnollistan). And there is a pseudo-Mongolian tribe that is being hunted by the dickish pseudo-Mongolian humans.
Granted, most Mystaran goblins are mostly the typical retards with no reason to live other than rob and pillage, but they are actually allowed to have a real society a couple of places. However, this is actually addressed in the history of the humanoid races - they were reincarnated souls of evildoers, so all orcs and goblinkind are punished from the beginning and their descendants are still being pushed around and prevented from finding a proper place in the world, which tends to make them ill-tempered, hate the 'good' races and lack any sort of real technology.

[Korahir]

See, I've generally played goblins less "stupid" and more "manic." Their minds operate differently; scattered, a bit frantic, but no less intelligent by default. (Mind you, this was before Warcraft gave us its Goblin Engineers and so forth.) I had one goblin Psion (specifically, a Blue) who basically suffered from a series of exciting neuroses - he was paranoid and delusional; he had issues about personal spaces, enclosed spaces, and open spaces; he used several different aliases, even switching between them in the course of a single conversation; he employed his psionic powers primarily to keep people the heck away from him. Admittedly, this made sense; Blues are alternately admired and feared within goblin communities.

Irving/Reginald/Albert/whatever was no dumb bunny. He was extremely canny, and exceptionally bright. (I need not remind you that a Psion's key stat is Int.) And I didn't assume that other goblins were stupid, either. (It's hard to play a paranoid character who assumes everyone out to get him is an idiot. And goblins were family, so of course they wanted him dead.)

But he was seriously mental. Totally off his flipping nut.

Perfect example of how you can handle madness without making it stupid.

Another thing i forgot
I was always puzzled that no abandoned goblin camps ever appear anywhere, although they often are described as a roaming plague. Seems like they never actually run.

I also like the idea of goblin kingdom building. I've been kicking this idea in my head to do the reverse Red Hand of Doom. More or less the PCs as goblin leaders trying to establish a goblin kingdom decades or even centuries after the RHoD events.

[Aergoth]

In golarion the answer is basically "It Is So". You have to get that a lot of the early stuff, especially in Varisia is based off of home games being run by the PF guys. Goblins are traditional low-level enemies. Kobolds get terrible stats for similar reasons. You can make them into a threat in whatever setting you want to build, but this is simply the way that Paizo's devs have chosen to do things. They wanted to make goblins a memorable enemy for early players.

There's no reasons that goblins can't be a threat. But this is the way they've been written. They're tiny, fire-happy little buggers without a lot of impulse control. They're not physically tough, and they tend to come into harsh conflict with other races because of their natural proclivities.
They're also fairly primitive because they can't get their **** together long enough before getting curb-stomped by anything resembling organized resistance. They don't do a lot of the things that we associate with successful cultures. Their tools are crude and made from castoffs from other, more successful peoples. They abhor writing. Being too smart is considered a terrible idea. The villain of one of the two goblin modules arguably has most of their **** together and is treated as a villain by normal goblins because of this abberrance.

Eberron's goblins were written as masters of a fallen empire (The Dhakani or some similar spelling). The Goblins in Goblins (sadly still on hiatus) are entirely reasonable, but they're small creatures and they have their own set of problems (refusing to use magic items out of tradition among them). Redcloak and his kind are trying to reverse that, but none of these are Golarion.

Put a few hundred goblins against a mid level adventurer and by all rights that adventurer is going to lose by sheer weight of probability. But goblins in PF don't get to be that organized because that's how it is. Don't like it? Run it some other way. That's why you're the one running the game after all. You can change what you like.

[Korahir]

My problem is that goblin actions as suggested (to make them memorable) is not based on their stats. Why are goblins stupid but have no INT penalty? Why are goblins borderline mad but have no WIS penalty? Why is their alignment often NE but they act like CE (if you ignore the stupid rants). I just don't get why a race determines those actions.

[Fouredged Sword]

I at one point wrote a setting where the players tended to love the goblin tribes and commonly sided with them over humans. I made it so that goblin tribes are all unique, with their own values and laws. They simply change faster due to a generation being roughly 6 years long rather than 20 for a human population. The goblins are all very chaotic, but they all value community over individuality.

This leads to some interesting plots like a tribe of goblins who die to a man, woman, and child defending a human village from orcs, and another tribe who lives as bandits, who share tea with all their captives and release them completely unharmed.

Then there are evil tribes like those who flay the skin from their victims and eat human flesh. Traditions vary greatly from group to group.

In the setting, a large number of non-human races all lack souls and thus free will (being created that way by the god or demon), with the souled only having them due to the accord of peace between heaven and hell. Those without souls are unable to change on a personal level, and thus behave in ways that seem insane to outside observers. They are intelligent, and can know they go to their death for no reason, but lack the ability to choose a different path. Humans are the only race that everyone is born with a soul.

Much of the conflict the characters face is between souled organisations with competing goals and with unsould groups acting out their racial programming.

[John Longarrow]

I've always run goblins/kobolds as intelligent. Often kicked around by more powerful beings, but intelligent.

Example; group of goblins move into ruins of a border fort. They dig holes around the ruins (3' deep, 10'x10') with camoflage. In each pit is a 3 goblin fire team with 3 heavy crossbows. One is a warrior, the other 2 goblin commoners (reloaders). Works really well for keeping up sustained crossbow fire. Teams fire until something big gets close then fall back. They've trapped the area around the ruins and have pre-set firing positions.

Also had one of the most memorable fights.
Female goblin commoner holds off 4th level character (and draws first blood) when wearing no armor and equipt with only a kitchen knift.

I'll admit, she did have a giant bonus. She was facing a 4th level Monk with flurry of misses....

[Coidzor]

My problem is that goblin actions as suggested (to make them memorable) is not based on their stats. Why are goblins stupid but have no INT penalty? Why are goblins borderline mad but have no WIS penalty? Why is their alignment often NE but they act like CE (if you ignore the stupid rants). I just don't get why a race determines those actions.

Yeah, I always wondered at that disconnect myself. Mostly why the devs didn't give them a mental handicap in the mechanics to reflect their view of them.

Then I remember, of course, these are the devs we're talking about.

[Slipperychicken]

One solution is to play them intelligently, and also give them some degree of culture, thereby subverting the players' expectations.


Personally, I imagine that Goblins could make very nice nomadic steppe-peoples. Just replace the horses with Goblin Dogs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dog/goblin-dog) (which, while weaker, are just as swift as any horse), and have these green horse-warriors favor skirmish tactics. It even fits somewhat with their fluff:


Society: Violent but fecund, goblins exist in primitive tribal structures with constant shifts in power. Rarely able to sustain their own needs through farming or hunting and gathering, goblin tribes live where food is abundant or near places that they can steal it from. Since they are incapable of building significant fortifications and have been driven out of most easily accessible locations, goblins tend to live in unpleasant and remote locations, and their poor building and planning skills ensure that they dwell primarily in crude caves, ramshackle villages, and abandoned structures. Few goblins are good with tools or skilled at farming, and the rare items of any value that they possess are usually cast-off implements from humans or other civilized cultures. Goblins' appetites and poor planning lead to small tribes dominated by the strongest warriors. Even the hardiest goblin leaders quickly find out that their survival depends on conducting frequent raids to secure sources of food and kill off the more aggressive youth of the tribe. Both goblin men and women are ugly and vicious, and both sexes are just as likely to rise to positions of power in a tribe. goblin babies are almost completely self-sufficient not long after birth, and such infants are treated almost like pets. Many tribes raise their children communally in cages or pens where adults can largely ignore them. Mortality is high among young goblins, and when the adults fail to feed them or food runs low, youths learn at an early age that cannibalism is sometimes the best means of survival in a goblin tribe.


Adventurers: goblin adventurers are usually curious and inclined to explore the world, though they are often killed off by their own foolish misdeeds or hunted down for their random acts of destruction. Their pernicious nature makes interacting with civilized races almost impossible, so goblins tend to adventure on the fringes of civilization or in the wilds. Adventurous individuals who survive long enough often ride goblin dogs or other exotic mounts, and focus on archery to avoid close confrontation with larger enemies. goblin spellcasters prefer fire magic and bombs over almost all other methods of spreading mayhem.

So yeah, the PCs might wander into some barren wastes to do the standard first quest ("Oh no! Goblin tribal raiders stole the town's food! Are you a bad enough dude to stop them?"), and find themselves in a flat, featureless plain being sniped from >200ft away on each side by green fur-clad dog-riders. If they pursue on foot, the goblins handily outpace them and pepper them with arrows. If they pursue while mounted, the goblins maintain distance while targeting mounts first (as mounts tend to be squishier than their riders). The riders typically wouldn't ride anywhere close to melee unless the enemy is either routing or isolated from the main group. They might move up somewhat close (not into charge range though) to coax enemies into pursuing in the direction the goblins want them to.

[Shining Wrath]

Goblins being whipping boys is a holdover from AD&D, where they had less than a full hit die and were pretty much inferior to orcs across the board.

As spec'd they are probably better suited for survival than orcs, but old traditions die hard.

From SRD:
Goblin characters: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Orc characters: +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.

Except for warrior-types, Goblins are better characters than Orcs. You can see how in a primitive society orcs might bully goblins - but a goblin shaman could make them wish they hadn't.

[Anlashok]

In golarion the answer is basically "It Is So".

Which, as said before, is weird because the PF devs gave goblins a racial affinity for alchemy, which is pretty far removed from the 'idiot primitive' trope that normally gets bandied about.


Goblins being whipping boys is a holdover from AD&D, where they had less than a full hit die and were pretty much inferior to orcs across the board.
This is it though. Despite their unique stats and unique thematics, they're still essentially played as a poor man's orc, which is probably also a holdover from LOTR where goblins were just another kind of orc (and by all appearances toward the bottom of the totem pole).

[Dusk Eclipse]

In golarion the answer is basically "It Is So". You have to get that a lot of the early stuff, especially in Varisia is based off of home games being run by the PF guys. Goblins are traditional low-level enemies. Kobolds get terrible stats for similar reasons. You can make them into a threat in whatever setting you want to build, but this is simply the way that Paizo's devs have chosen to do things. They wanted to make goblins a memorable enemy for early players.

There's no reasons that goblins can't be a threat. But this is the way they've been written. They're tiny, fire-happy little buggers without a lot of impulse control. They're not physically tough, and they tend to come into harsh conflict with other races because of their natural proclivities.
They're also fairly primitive because they can't get their **** together long enough before getting curb-stomped by anything resembling organized resistance. They don't do a lot of the things that we associate with successful cultures. Their tools are crude and made from castoffs from other, more successful peoples. They abhor writing. Being too smart is considered a terrible idea. The villain of one of the two goblin modules arguably has most of their **** together and is treated as a villain by normal goblins because of this abberrance.

Eberron's goblins were written as masters of a fallen empire (The Dhakani or some similar spelling). The Goblins in Goblins (sadly still on hiatus) are entirely reasonable, but they're small creatures and they have their own set of problems (refusing to use magic items out of tradition among them). Redcloak and his kind are trying to reverse that, but none of these are Golarion.

Put a few hundred goblins against a mid level adventurer and by all rights that adventurer is going to lose by sheer weight of probability. But goblins in PF don't get to be that organized because that's how it is. Don't like it? Run it some other way. That's why you're the one running the game after all. You can change what you like.

Minor correction, you are thinking of Hobgoblins, they are the heirs to a fallen empire (that lasted 10,000 years!) Goblins are still cowardly, pawns for the Hobgoblin and treated as second class citizens pretty much everywhere.

[Blightedmarsh]

Well you could start by giving them class levels. Go on by giving them lots and lots of poison ranged weapons, a penchant for hit and run raids, ambushes and intelligent arson (retreating on wolf back into the wheat fields and then setting fire to it to cover their withdraw).

Another point is making it so they don't raid to steel crops; they raid to kill off the livestock damaging their own agriculture and to harass, kill and drive off villages from what they see as their land.

Give them bows, altla and slings; amping them up if you like. If your players question it say they have a goblin only PRC or feat or something.

Another tactic to consider is ritual magic; sacrifices and what not to unleash curses and summoned monstrosities on their victims. 5 goblins may not seem like a threat but when they unleash a black hydra on the party? Or cause all the villagers you where protecting to turn into zombies? Now that is a threat.

[arkangel111]

I always imagined it was somewhat like the goblins comics story. Goblins are actually super smart and they only leave the weak/stupid ones out of their main village to be picked off by the heroes and other big bad guys.

Possibly planning a big world domination scheme or some such in the background while they bide their time waiting for the time of the goblin...

[subject42]

With respect to the Golarion goblins, I think a lot of the ones you see in the campaigns are very young. Goblins have a preposterously high reproduction rate, but the planet isn't overrun with them. That would imply they have a fairly high mortality rate as well. Maybe goblins are smart, but act like suicidal lunatics with poor impulse control until they're 30 years old or so.

[BWR]

Goblins got a lot of nifty stuff in the Tales of the Lance boxed set. Our party was about 10th level or so and we decided to give an island full of goblins a miss after some nasty run-ins with the buggers. And these were standard 1/2 HD goblins with some nice gear. Converting that stuff to d20 would result in either the items being nerfed to sensible levels and thus nearly useless, or give people some absurd toys.

[Malimar]

They're also fairly primitive because they can't get their **** together long enough before getting curb-stomped by anything resembling organized resistance. They don't do a lot of the things that we associate with successful cultures. Their tools are crude and made from castoffs from other, more successful peoples. They abhor writing.

This is on point. It makes me consider the possibility that, say, Cro-Magnons, having roughly the same brains as modern humans, might average int and wis of 10, but would pose a similar threat level as goblins to well-armed modern (e.g., medieval) humans.

[Graypairofsocks]

Personally, I imagine that Goblins could make very nice nomadic steppe-peoples. Just replace the horses with Goblin Dogs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dog/goblin-dog) (which, while weaker, are just as swift as any horse), and have these green horse-warriors favor skirmish tactics.


I think Goblins use Worgs as mounts, so they might also be useful.

[Coidzor]

Which, as said before, is weird because the PF devs gave goblins a racial affinity for alchemy, which is pretty far removed from the 'idiot primitive' trope that normally gets bandied about.

This is it though. Despite their unique stats and unique thematics, they're still essentially played as a poor man's orc, which is probably also a holdover from LOTR where goblins were just another kind of orc (and by all appearances toward the bottom of the totem pole).

They're a rather interesting lot, the PF devs, aye. I suppose they just liked the juxtaposition of illiterate alchemists.

There is that hierarchy of greenskins element at play, I'm sure.


This is on point. It makes me consider the possibility that, say, Cro-Magnons, having roughly the same brains as modern humans, might average int and wis of 10, but would pose a similar threat level as goblins to well-armed modern (e.g., medieval) humans.

They'd get absorbed because the militias and adventurers that crushed 'em would notice that some of the women were pretty.

So, really, the thing keeping goblins where they are is that the civilized races don't want to schtup 'em. :smallamused:

[ScrambledBrains]

So, really, the thing keeping goblins where they are is that the civilized races don't want to schtup 'em. :smallamused:

...And now I'm contemplating what kind of stats a Half-Goblin would have...:smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

My thoughts?

Medium size, 35ft move speed, +2 dex, -2str, slight build, +1 skill point per level.

I think most PAB races are a little weak though.

[Spore]

With respect to the Golarion goblins, I think a lot of the ones you see in the campaigns are very young. Goblins have a preposterously high reproduction rate, but the planet isn't overrun with them. That would imply they have a fairly high mortality rate as well. Maybe goblins are smart, but act like suicidal lunatics with poor impulse control until they're 30 years old or so.

I'm not able to bore you with evolution theory but in my view several of the "funny and comedic" quirks of Golarion Goblins would likely push their race towards extinction. Then again the Golarion eco system is a mess in of itself. Why aren't dire creatures with pounce dominating the wild life etc. They're fantastical but I highly disagree with several choices (as in my opinion any playable race should be somewhat sensible).

When thinking about the goblin ancestry as they are spawns of high ranking Barghests (LE outsiders eating everything) their culture should probably revolve more about devouring and tribal ranks than burning down paper and gutting horses.

[Coidzor]

My thoughts?

Medium size, 35ft move speed, +2 dex, -2str, slight build, +1 skill point per level.

I think most PAB races are a little weak though.

That is a pretty weird move speed. :smallconfused: How did you arrive at it?


I'm not able to bore you with evolution theory but in my view several of the "funny and comedic" quirks of Golarion Goblins would likely push their race towards extinction. Then again the Golarion eco system is a mess in of itself. Why aren't dire creatures with pounce dominating the wild life etc. They're fantastical but I highly disagree with several choices (as in my opinion any playable race should be somewhat sensible).

When thinking about the goblin ancestry as they are spawns of high ranking Barghests (LE outsiders eating everything) their culture should probably revolve more about devouring and tribal ranks than burning down paper and gutting horses.

I don't think even the devs claim their senses of humor are any good. I'd wager that given the precedent set by tradition that a good sense of humor is actually a professional handicap when it comes to working in the field of RPGs.

Quite.

[Fouredged Sword]

Goblins are fast for their size. A half goblin would be fast for their size as well, but being medium they would have a 30 base speed. I figured that the stats even out, and slight build is nice but not great, roughly equal to most races skills and immunities. +5ft move speed is roughly replacing the human feat with the feat that adds 5ft to your move speed.

I was mostly just going by the seat of my pants though.

[Ranting Fool]

I've always had a soft spot for Gobilns. In my current campaign the Goblins are almost all kept as slaves by humans because they are considered vermin and aren't given the same rights as other creatures but there is a lot of Goblin rebellion going on at the moment which some of my PC's have hinted that they want to get involved in.:smallbiggrin: LONG LIVE THE GOBLIN REVOLUTION!

[NichG]

Personally, I'd rather just give them the stat penalty. Not every creature on the face of the world has to be as smart as the average civilizations. There's a niche for 'how are these things not extinct yet?' levels of dumb - creatures whose survival mechanism is that they find someone stronger than them and basically attach themselves parasitically to their culture. That's, IMO, more interesting than 'these guys are basically the same as kobolds, orcs, elves, dwarves, humans, etc except that they look different'.

[Lord of Shadows]

One of the best adventures I ran here was an all-Goblin adventure where the party, using a long-term polymorph to look like Goblins, had to infiltrate a Goblin town where strange new weapons had appeared a few weeks after a "ball of fire" shot across the sky toward the Wild Coast (this was Greyhawk).

One of the NPC's was described in the original material as a "Stranded Goblin Entertainer" with some brief notes about having a Pan Flute and wearing a sombrero. I replaced the flute with a guitar and gave him a few levels in Bard. He was already described as Chaotic Neutral, so he fit right in to the plot.

The current players who were a part of that group still talk about their adventure with the singing "Goblin Bandito." It was classic.
.

[Spore]

LONG LIVE THE GOBLIN REVOLUTION!

You know you're required to make a Gob Guevara, yannow? :smallamused:

[Sartharina]

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the adventure paths in question, but a big problem is you are treating Goblins as people/human in thought, when they are anything but. Elves and dwarves are similarly inhuman, but not to the same extent (Largely by being better more familiar and having ingrained ethics and behaviors that align with idealized human ethics and behaviors). they don't have the same tolerance and empathy as a person, nor the same breadth of knowledge. They are primitive and have an entirely different culture, some of the things being behaviors also seen in real-world cultures that are ALSO inhabited by people just as smart as anyone else.

[Korahir]

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the adventure paths in question, but a big problem is you are treating Goblins as people/human in thought, when they are anything but. [...]

Cultural aspects and primitivity don't add up to illogical behaviour. Maybe i don't get this culture but any living organism prioritising food over an enemy is bound to die horrible deaths. I've got no problem with such idiocy in roleplaying as it can make memorable encounters. All i ask for is to give the goblins a break. Nothing in the RAW indicates that goblins are stupid.

[subject42]

I'm not able to bore you with evolution theory but in my view several of the "funny and comedic" quirks of Golarion Goblins would likely push their race towards extinction. Then again the Golarion eco system is a mess in of itself. Why aren't dire creatures with pounce dominating the wild life etc.

Maybe I just look at it from the in-world perspective of a PC, but I thought dire creatures with pounce did dominate Golarion's various ecosystems. When you're playing, it seems like animal short of the chickens are 14 feet tall and trying to eat you.

...maybe Goblins were genetically engineered by some ancient forebearer race for the express purpose of being eaten by large and unpleasant predators, specifically to keep the monsters away from civilization.

[Lord of Shadows]

...maybe Goblins were genetically engineered by some ancient forebearer race for the express purpose of being eaten by large and unpleasant predators, specifically to keep the monsters away from civilization.

That could make for an interesting plot... especially since it seems that either the designated predator has dwindled in numbers, or the Goblins have exploded. In numbers, that is. Not necessarily literally.
.

[Vrock_Summoner]

That could make for an interesting plot... especially since it seems that either the designated predator has dwindled in numbers, or the Goblins have exploded. In numbers, that is. Not necessarily literally.
.

Haha, nice! Maybe they actually overpowered their initial predator and pushed it to extinction? Then they'd have a traditional foundation for thinking they could outdo all the "superior" races.

Also, exploding goblins. There are breeds of ant that do that. Heh. :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

You know you're required to make a Gob Guevara, yannow? :smallamused:

There's T-shirts already for that (OoTS's Redcloak, in this case).

[Coidzor]

Personally, I'd rather just give them the stat penalty. Not every creature on the face of the world has to be as smart as the average civilizations. There's a niche for 'how are these things not extinct yet?' levels of dumb - creatures whose survival mechanism is that they find someone stronger than them and basically attach themselves parasitically to their culture. That's, IMO, more interesting than 'these guys are basically the same as kobolds, orcs, elves, dwarves, humans, etc except that they look different'.

I've been thinking about either dividing the race up into feral goblins and city goblins or some similar classification or just coming up with something else to fill the "city goblin" niche and just making them dumb and crazy as derro.

[super dark33]

I've been thinking about either dividing the race up into feral goblins and city goblins or some similar classification or just coming up with something else to fill the "city goblin" niche and just making them dumb and crazy as derro.

Why limit to goblin? Lets do it to Elves, Gnomes, Hu- oh wait.

[squiggit]

That's, IMO, more interesting than 'these guys are basically the same as kobolds, orcs, elves, dwarves, humans, etc except that they look different'.
That's already the problem with goblins though. They're a poor man's Orc or a slightly less industrious kobold. So I don't agree that embracing the current archetype adds anything. We already have too many dumb as rocks primitive cannon fodder races as is.

Personally I like to use more Warcraft-y (closer to Warcraft 2 than the insanity and hypertech of WoW) or Tolkien(where they're described as cunning and masters at crafting weapons of torture and war) than the standard d&d "crappy orc" or "green kobold" too-dumb-to-exist model.

[Slipperychicken]

Personally I like to use more Warcraft-y (closer to Warcraft 2 than the insanity and hypertech of WoW) or Tolkien(where they're described as cunning and masters at crafting weapons of torture and war) than the standard d&d "crappy orc" or "green kobold" too-dumb-to-exist model.

Bear in mind that Tolkien was using "goblin" as a translation for "orc". They're the same thing.


"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places [in The Hobbit] but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds)."
—J.R.R. Tolkien in the Preface of The Hobbit

[NichG]

Cultural aspects and primitivity don't add up to illogical behaviour. Maybe i don't get this culture but any living organism prioritising food over an enemy is bound to die horrible deaths. I've got no problem with such idiocy in roleplaying as it can make memorable encounters. All i ask for is to give the goblins a break. Nothing in the RAW indicates that goblins are stupid.

I think what you may be missing is, there are lots of ways for living organisms whose behavior appears to be illogical to work in the bigger picture, it just requires you not think of things in a humanocentric fashion. For example: lets say goblins have a gestation period of 3 months, litters of 10 children at once, and have strong gender roles so the goblins the adventurers are encountering all the time are mostly the males. Then the whole 'goblins risk their lives for food' thing becomes a weeding-out process for procreation rights within goblin society. A goblin male might risk their life for food because bringing food back to the camp means they get to have 10 offspring, so if one in ten goblins who tries that tactic succeeds its actually a stable behavior.

There is nothing to say that that particular explanation has to be the one for goblins. It could as well be that their behaviors are a tactic to designed to attract the attention and protection of Orc tribes, or even that the goblins always send their stupidest out to be warriors as a way to keep them out of politics. Or, since this is fantasy, that they exist not as a member of a real ecology but as a representation of some aspect of the human condition - the meanness brought on by cowardice for example, or the cruelty of children, or whatever (the same way that orcs aren't just 'pigs are strong and dumb', but are a representation of the abstract concept of brutality).

Anyhow, my point isn't that they have to be dumb. My point though is that they shouldn't just be short humans with funny skin coloration. Its better that they're dumb to the point of absurdity than just another race, because it at least gives them a particular role and meaning of some sort.


That's already the problem with goblins though. They're a poor man's Orc or a slightly less industrious kobold. So I don't agree that embracing the current archetype adds anything. We already have too many dumb as rocks primitive cannon fodder races as is.

Personally I like to use more Warcraft-y (closer to Warcraft 2 than the insanity and hypertech of WoW) or Tolkien(where they're described as cunning and masters at crafting weapons of torture and war) than the standard d&d "crappy orc" or "green kobold" too-dumb-to-exist model.

As I was suggesting in the other reply, I think a way to differentiate these creatures is to look at them as representations of some abstract aspect of the human condition.

Kobolds - The sadism that results from fear inverted. This is sort of the cruelty that emerges when someone oppressed has a chance to take revenge on their oppressor. An individual kobold is completely cowardly, but in groups they become fierce. This suggests that you could do stories involving e.g. the kobolds being meek and actually seeming good-natured while they're being oppressed, but as soon as someone 'saves' them they exhibit a complete change in behavior.

Goblins - Lord of the Flies. The cruelty of children; the idea that there's a reverse side to innocence, where a lack of awareness of the feelings or personhood of others means that nasty behavior can manifest right out of the blue, because there's no concept of guilt or conscience blocking it, only the fact that it hadn't occurred to that person as something to do until just then - a 'pulling wings off a butterfly' sort of thing. So under this particular idea, goblins would have a tendency to act in sometimes silly, stupid, or irrational ways because they're just not mentally preposessed of the ability to tell when they're being dumb, but at the same time would often exhibit shockingly cruel behaviors.

Hobgoblins - These guys give me a hard time. Closest I can think of is the idea of 'take the above, but now make them not dumb'.

Orcs - Brutality made manifest. Consummate soldiers/bullies. A representation of the cruelty that having overwhelming strength over another can create.

Not saying these particular descriptions are the only way to do it, or are supported by RAW or anything, but it does help make each one distinctive.

[Slipperychicken]

I think what you may be missing is, there are lots of ways for living organisms whose behavior appears to be illogical to work in the bigger picture, it just requires you not think of things in a humanocentric fashion. For example: lets say goblins have a gestation period of 3 months, litters of 10 children at once, and have strong gender roles so the goblins the adventurers are encountering all the time are mostly the males. Then the whole 'goblins risk their lives for food' thing becomes a weeding-out process for procreation rights within goblin society. A goblin male might risk their life for food because bringing food back to the camp means they get to have 10 offspring, so if one in ten goblins who tries that tactic succeeds its actually a stable behavior.


Well, they don't seem to have them in Pathfinder.


Society (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-goblin): Violent but fecund, goblins exist in primitive tribal structures with constant shifts in power. Rarely able to sustain their own needs through farming or hunting and gathering, goblin tribes live where food is abundant or near places that they can steal it from. Since they are incapable of building significant fortifications and have been driven out of most easily accessible locations, goblins tend to live in unpleasant and remote locations, and their poor building and planning skills ensure that they dwell primarily in crude caves, ramshackle villages, and abandoned structures. Few goblins are good with tools or skilled at farming, and the rare items of any value that they possess are usually cast-off implements from humans or other civilized cultures. Goblins' appetites and poor planning lead to small tribes dominated by the strongest warriors. Even the hardiest goblin leaders quickly find out that their survival depends on conducting frequent raids to secure sources of food and kill off the more aggressive youth of the tribe. Both goblin men and women are ugly and vicious, and both sexes are just as likely to rise to positions of power in a tribe. goblin babies are almost completely self-sufficient not long after birth, and such infants are treated almost like pets. Many tribes raise their children communally in cages or pens where adults can largely ignore them. Mortality is high among young goblins, and when the adults fail to feed them or food runs low, youths learn at an early age that cannibalism is sometimes the best means of survival in a goblin tribe.

[squiggit]

Bear in mind that Tolkien was using "goblin" as a translation for "orc". They're the same thing.

Oh I know. I just like giving it to goblins anyways


As I was suggesting in the other reply, I think a way to differentiate these creatures is to look at them as representations of some abstract aspect of the human condition.
I actually like your descriptions here, though in what I've been brainstorming has the kobolds and goblins are slightly flipped.

Admittedly part of my difficult there is simpy because kobolds and goblins have a lot of thematic overlap too. Which leads me to dislike kobolds a bit.

Hobgoblins I feel like work pretty well as is as the disciplined and ordered counterpart to orcs.

I sort of like the idea of goblins as extremely bitter, cunningly brutal races. Weak and not particularly pretty, basically always the whipping boy for orcs or target practice for dwarves leads to lots of bitterness, scheming, manipulation and artifice.

But I know that's a pretty different interpretation of the standard version of them.

[Slipperychicken]

I sort of like the idea of goblins as extremely bitter, cunningly brutal races. Weak and not particularly pretty, basically always the whipping boy for orcs or target practice for dwarves leads to lots of bitterness, scheming, manipulation and artifice.

Even that interpretation has some concept-overlap with gnomes and halflings. Which seems to be a problem with small races in general.

[Vedhin]

Has nobody linked to The Goblin Defense Fund (http://www.goblindefensefund.org/history4.html)?

[The Oni]

Mostly because I'm not good at playing truly dumb characters, I tend to play goblins as just weird or uneducated. In fact, I played a very philosophical goblin in the We Be Goblins Too PF adventure. I got stuck with Chuffy (the rogue) and there were two Poogs (since there were more players than characters). Chuffy, being an existentialist, and reasonably smart for a goblin, felt extraordinarily threatened by the existence of two identical goblins because as long as they both existed, Chuffy feared that his own existence was not unique and, therefore, not meaningful - so he continuously tried to get one of the Poogs killed.

In the end, Chuffy was killed by an ogre druid, and the greater Poog took on Chuffy's name, restoring the balance and allowing his soul to rest.

[Coidzor]

Why limit to goblin? Lets do it to Elves, Gnomes, Hu- oh wait.

City elves and city gnomes are already their own conceptual niches though. Similarly, there's as many savage versions of Elves as you can shake a stick at, most of which that I recall do suffer Int penalties.

I suppose there's not that many versions of wild gnomes though, the closest I can think of are the closer to their fey roots gnomes that are sometimes a thing in Golarion.

Come to think of it, I might just make surface derro that aren't... degenerated dwarves or whatever they are.

[Duboris]

Has nobody linked to The Goblin Defense Fund (http://www.goblindefensefund.org/history4.html)?

Just read that whole thing, and oh my word. I mean, don't get me wrong; Pathfinder is my veritable ****. Like, it's the best thing ever for me because I never played DnD and learned how to hideously optimize anything that isn't in PF for the last 3 years, but damn.

My next campaign literally has the first mission (For PC's of 5th Level, no less) going to a fort to eradicate the (Very much) deadly threat. The goblins raided the fort, lost some men, killed the men, that worked there in the middle of the night. They have preposterous stealth scores! They have such preposterous stealth scores that I'm making it a point to make a goblin rogue 3, just so he can be a wild card in the inevitable fight down in the brickwork.

As a play-by-play, this is what they did. Entered at nightfall, killed quietly to begin with. Alarm was raised, and they ditched the stealth and won with overwhelming numbers. In their ranks they had a Bugbear (Ranger 2), a goblin barbarian 5, a goblin rogue 3, a goblin druid 2, 5 warchanters (goblin bard 2's), a armored up ball of steel (Goblin fighter 4) and finally, the chief, who rides a giant gecko because he likes the slick skin compared to the bony spine of a goblin dog. (Fighter 5)

The Bugbear may have killed the most enemies, but the barbarian hits harder than any of them, the rogue did most of the work at night, the warchanters bolstered the entire force. They worked together. However I do admit, that a healthy number of the cannon fodder goblins definitely meet the usual intelligence curve, but that's because I give goblins a -2 penalty to intelligence in my games because of the way they're portrayed.

The goblins maimed the horses but didn't kill them because they're food now, raided the alchemical stock of weapons (literally nothing but alchemical fire to be tossed) and nearly burned down the fort, but that's only because you're average goblin is, in fact, really stupid. They're all pyromaniacs, and most of them probably don't survive a year. The ones that live past 2 years of age probably get a little more clarity, but they're feral up till that point because they got raised like pets and didn't eat that much.

[ShurikVch]

Minor correction, you are thinking of Hobgoblins, they are the heirs to a fallen empire (that lasted 10,000 years!) Goblins are still cowardly, pawns for the Hobgoblin and treated as second class citizens pretty much everywhere. In the past of Forgotten Realms goblins have one strong state in Goblin Marches, but it was destroyed by expanding of Anauroch desert
The Goblin Marches and High Moors were much wider and wetter than now. The Great Desert Anauroch'’s southernmost limits were 50 to 150 miles farther north than now, making the local weather cooler and moister. The Farsea Marsh was a freshwater lake ringed by forests and well-watered fields. The soil was rich, moist, and deep.
The goblins thrived in these lands, building mighty castles and citadels, particularly in the High Moors. Their numbers increased, and they built great armies and raiding parties, using dire wolves and other strange beasts as mounts. In the early centuries, they conquered the ancient kingdoms of Asram and Anauria, and fought with the city-state of Suzail, then only newly founded. Orcs and other so-called “evil” races were recruited as allied forces.
The goblins were wise enough never to attack Cormyr itself. By avoiding their strongest opponent, the goblins easily overcame the defenses of the villages, farms, and caravans bordering their expanding domain.

In the Underdark located hamlet Brikklext, ruled by the Blue Council of Blue-psions

Also, we have Grodd goblins (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/goblins.htm#grodd):
The city of Grodd is a hollowed out portion in the center of a demiplane of solid stone. Its origins are unknown. Grodd is difficult to travel to and from with traditional dimensional-hopping magic. At some point over a thousand years ago, the plane became populated with goblins from the Goblin Marches area of Toril. Their first great ruler was a mysterious being known as the Iron One.

Since that time the goblins were taught and ruled by the elf/red dragon Nalavara who elevated their culture beyond the norm for their race. She gave them knowledge in many practices of more civilized folk as well as a pathological hatred for the kingdom of Cormyr.

Thousands of goblins inhabit the city and they maintain shops, mines, temples, and a well-trained military. They raise skunks, crows, and fungus as food. The goblins have lime-green skin and speak an ancient dialect of Elvish. Due to the demiplane’s close proximity to the Plane of Shadow, the goblins also have a strange affinity for shadow magic.

After a failed invasion on Cormyr, Nalavara was slain. The goblins are now engaged in a power struggle after the death of the dragon as well as their High Consul. But they have easy access to the area around the Storm Horns, so it’s likely that Toril has not seen the last of them. Among the Grodd goblins are several fighters of 10th level, adept 9, sorcerers 5, wizards 4 and 6

And in Al-Quadim:
Zakhara's society is made up mainly of humans, but demihumans such as elves and dwarves are present in the setting as well, as well as humanoids such as orcs, goblinoids, and ogres. Unlike most settings, there is practically no racial disharmony in Zakhara: humans, elves, and orcs alike share the same culture, lifestyle, and social status, and races traditionally considered evil savages, such as goblins, are instead valued members of society.

Goblins of Zakhara

Goblins of Zakhara are immigrants from Shou-Lung to the east. They live in large compounds that house large extended families and practice ancestor worship. Most Zakhara goblins' skin is bright green, but variants with yellow, red and blue also occur. Goblins in the Land of Fate have a great affinity for gadgets, especially explosives. They create and use odd devices such as flame-throwers, repeating crossbows, and balloons.

[PersonMan]

"Have a goblin stop his attack to snatch some food from a table." "A goblin stops pursue of a PC to kill a dog and eat it."

These things do make more sense if it's a kind of hunger-raid. "We have no food, attack this village to get some" has the primary goal of feeding the raiders, not killing all the defenders. Plus, chasing down a fleeing enemy is going to be hard without cavalry, not always a good idea (if I chase someone through their village, I'm asking to be ambushed) and not worth it - congratulations, you killed some random villager after a five-minute chase. Are you closer to achieving your goal? Nope.


"A goblin torches a house with alchemists fire instead of throwing it at a PC."

This makes less sense, but in some circumstances it could be reasonable.

Basically, in the right context these actions make sense, but in the wrong ones they don't.

[The Oni]

Don't forget, "stupid" doesn't preclude teamwork, though it may preclude complex tactics. Wolves are 2 Int but boy can they work together.


Hobgoblins - These guys give me a hard time. Closest I can think of is the idea of 'take the above, but now make them not dumb'.

See, I always figured Hobgoblins represented the sad and brutish end result of Might Makes Right, combined with copious amounts of groupthink. They have their strict rules and hierarchy, and the rules must be strong because the strongest people made the rules - and strong is good.

[Blightedmarsh]

An adaption of goblins would be to say that the individual goblin is an incomplete organism. Say that goblins have a gasult mind; a tribe mind if you will that guides its component parts via their instincts. They don't write because they don't need to write; information is carried down and conveyed telepathically/genetically.

This setup gets really dangerous when you consider magic. Consider an elven wizard against a goblin shaman; no contest right? Yeah an elven wizard might have centuries or millennia of experience under his belt but conciser his opponent. Not the individual shaman but the tribe mind itself; a being potentially tens of millennia old with a dozen entirely expendable shaman at its disposal; no real contest right?

[Spore]

There's T-shirts already for that (OoTS's Redcloak, in this case).

Please direct me, oh master.

I must confess I have only read the first 100 OOTS because that strip is expansively huge.

[Lord Vukodlak]

There is stupidity and then you have education, someone with a low IQ could still after laborious study get a college degree. Likewise someone highly intelligent could be denied any education at all. Think of an expert with eight intelligence vs a commoner with eighteen intelligence. The commoner has more skill points but few options as to how to apply them. While the expert might be a little slow but would have a wider set of options for skills.

Goblin society is tribal and rather primitive, and in PF they believe written words steal thoughts from your head, so it doesn't matter that they are equally intelligent to humans their society is what keeps them whipping boys. Not every civilization gets to be great builders or leave these lasting monuments. But just because they're society is primitive doesn't mean they can use the tools at their disposal to be incredibly cunning.

If goblins weren't the whipping boy pawns some other race would fill that niche and this topic would be about that race.

[hamishspence]

Please direct me, oh master.


http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick/6255377

[Slipperychicken]

There is stupidity and then you have education, someone with a low IQ could still after laborious study get a college degree. Likewise someone highly intelligent could be denied any education at all. Think of an expert with eight intelligence vs a commoner with eighteen intelligence. The commoner has more skill points but few options as to how to apply them. While the expert might be a little slow but would have a wider set of options for skills.

Goblin society is tribal and rather primitive, and in PF they believe written words steal thoughts from your head, so it doesn't matter that they are equally intelligent to humans their society is what keeps them whipping boys. Not every civilization gets to be great builders or leave these lasting monuments. But just because they're society is primitive doesn't mean they can use the tools at their disposal to be incredibly cunning.


Their illiteracy, lack of permanent structures, tribal culture, and constant raiding are some of the reasons I think they could fit in as nomadic tribesmen (similar in lifestyle to central Asian nomads like the Huns, Mongols, or Turks). So while they might not build fabulous cities or embrace formal education, they would spend almost their whole lives hunting and riding, which would make them fearsome and cunning opponents.

[Blightedmarsh]

Given how dangerous and unstable the DnD worlds are staying mobile is a viable survival strategy.

[Warlocknthewind]

Buhkas (LG Gobs from Sandstorm) try to farm in a desert. That being said, they also lack the charisma penalty.

Goblins are unintelligent because their brains are only half baked! Get 'em out of their dark holes, work them in 115 degree weather under the sizzling sun ans watch the IQ spike.

:cool:

Edit: also, Jim Henson and David Bowie are too blame as well. I'm sire at least one of you has seen Labyrinth

[Shining Wrath]

Haha, nice! Maybe they actually overpowered their initial predator and pushed it to extinction? Then they'd have a traditional foundation for thinking they could outdo all the "superior" races.

Also, exploding goblins. There are breeds of ant that do that. Heh. :smallamused:

Take it a step further - there are creatures where the adult preys upon its own young. Why can't what has kept goblins down been the constant internecine warfare between tribes exacerbated by a tendency for young, strong goblins to kill older but wiser goblins?

And then a Strong Leader appears and unites the goblin tribes (and eliminates those that don't unite), puts an end to the generational warfare, and leads the goblin hordes against civilization?

[Lord of Shadows]

Also, Jim Henson and David Bowie are too blame as well. I'm sure at least one of you has seen Labyrinth

Or Legend (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089469/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1):
.

Brown Tom: "Goblins! Hundreds of 'em. Shot me through me brain pan!"
Screwball: "That's one spot an arrow would do no harm."

[Sartharina]

I think what you may be missing is, there are lots of ways for living organisms whose behavior appears to be illogical to work in the bigger picture, it just requires you not think of things in a humanocentric fashion. For example: lets say goblins have a gestation period of 3 months, litters of 10 children at once, and have strong gender roles so the goblins the adventurers are encountering all the time are mostly the males. Then the whole 'goblins risk their lives for food' thing becomes a weeding-out process for procreation rights within goblin society. A goblin male might risk their life for food because bringing food back to the camp means they get to have 10 offspring, so if one in ten goblins who tries that tactic succeeds its actually a stable behavior.

There is nothing to say that that particular explanation has to be the one for goblins. It could as well be that their behaviors are a tactic to designed to attract the attention and protection of Orc tribes, or even that the goblins always send their stupidest out to be warriors as a way to keep them out of politics. Or, since this is fantasy, that they exist not as a member of a real ecology but as a representation of some aspect of the human condition - the meanness brought on by cowardice for example, or the cruelty of children, or whatever (the same way that orcs aren't just 'pigs are strong and dumb', but are a representation of the abstract concept of brutality).

Anyhow, my point isn't that they have to be dumb. My point though is that they shouldn't just be short humans with funny skin coloration. Its better that they're dumb to the point of absurdity than just another race, because it at least gives them a particular role and meaning of some sort.



As I was suggesting in the other reply, I think a way to differentiate these creatures is to look at them as representations of some abstract aspect of the human condition.

Kobolds - The sadism that results from fear inverted. This is sort of the cruelty that emerges when someone oppressed has a chance to take revenge on their oppressor. An individual kobold is completely cowardly, but in groups they become fierce. This suggests that you could do stories involving e.g. the kobolds being meek and actually seeming good-natured while they're being oppressed, but as soon as someone 'saves' them they exhibit a complete change in behavior.

Goblins - Lord of the Flies. The cruelty of children; the idea that there's a reverse side to innocence, where a lack of awareness of the feelings or personhood of others means that nasty behavior can manifest right out of the blue, because there's no concept of guilt or conscience blocking it, only the fact that it hadn't occurred to that person as something to do until just then - a 'pulling wings off a butterfly' sort of thing. So under this particular idea, goblins would have a tendency to act in sometimes silly, stupid, or irrational ways because they're just not mentally preposessed of the ability to tell when they're being dumb, but at the same time would often exhibit shockingly cruel behaviors.

Hobgoblins - These guys give me a hard time. Closest I can think of is the idea of 'take the above, but now make them not dumb'.

Orcs - Brutality made manifest. Consummate soldiers/bullies. A representation of the cruelty that having overwhelming strength over another can create.

Not saying these particular descriptions are the only way to do it, or are supported by RAW or anything, but it does help make each one distinctive.

This is almost where I agree, especially with Goblins. They're 'perma-children', and the disobedient and most malevolent ones at that. Anyone who's actually spent any time around kids can know how cruel they can be (Neutral Evil DOES match children - fortunately, children are generally too weak to be a threat, and will outgrow that. Goblins, however, are not so weak, and never outgrow it).

Bugbears are distinctly bullies, like Moe from Calvin & Hobbes.

Hobgoblins are Hobbe's Goblins. They see that the lives other goblinoids live are ugly, brutish, and short because of their lack of order, and thus surrender themselves to an oppressive Social Contract to keep themselves in line. Conversely, Bugbears see the oppression of that Social Contract, and stay the **** away from it.

As for other Evil humanoids - Orcs are also Conquest, not just brutality. They have some overlap with bugbears, but their motivation is different. Gnolls are the antithesis of civilization, and are raw beastiality and savagery. Their purpose is to tear down civilization and its false structures. Some aspects of their existence are notably ignored (I blame censorship). Sahuagin are Religiously-empowered Shark Nazis, except actually are better than every other race. Kuo Toa are the terrors of the deep. Kobolds are... significantly more complex, but primarily the menace of miners. The dragon aspect to them changes things (And I was in a game that explored the place of Kobolds in a world ruled under a Dracocracy.)

Even the Good humanoids, except Humans and possibly Halflings, are embodiments of human traits.
Dwarves are the positive aspects of Clans, Honor, and Self-sacrifice for society (And are a notable counterpoint to Hobgoblins). Elves are stewardship over nature. Gnomes embody the power of good humor against adversity.

[Propagandalf]

Wow NichG & Sartharina, this got deep. :smalleek:

Excellent answers!
Thumbs up for both of you!:smallbiggrin:

[Jergmo]

People should be afraid of goblins.

Very, very afraid.

They're extremely stealthy (+5 Hide and Move Silently overall, with racial skill abilities, size, and Dex bonus)

They're just as intelligent as humans.

They're very good at riding, have a close relationship as it is with highly intelligent magical beasts (Worgs)

This also implies to me that they're fond of animal husbandry in general. Goblins should have plenty of herd animals to feed their rapidly growing numbers, as well as other resources, such as leather. They should have no trouble protecting their assets, either, as their sentries would be very good ambushers.

It should also be very common for goblins to rely on ranged combat.

Goblins should not be cowardly sneaks scavenging for supplies. They strike me as aggressive, coordinated skirmishers, with superior light cavalry that can also bite your face off while they're at it. Ordinary wolves run down deer all the time. What is a pack of worg or wolf riders with bows going to do to your horses?

Also, the only spellcasters that a goblin community can't very well support are Sorcerers, Divine Souls, and other casters that rely on Charisma in some way. Cleric wizards and clerics should be just as plentiful in number as for humans.

In my own homebrew setting, the Asurans (the Hardy Men of The North) would, 9 times out of 10, rather face an attack by a pack of trolls on their villages, rather than a raiding party of hungry, sneak-attacking and outrunning goblins.

[Jergmo]

On another note, if we do want an inspiration for goblins being clever and borderline mad, look at Minions in Overlord.

"Warlord Grubtuk of the Gourd-Helm Clan, Ravager of Halflings."

[TheWizzard104]

I think I'll take this chance to tell a story, so gather round children and listen carefully.

Goblins are physically small and weak, this leads them to be hunted to near extinction by animals. Something was needed to supplement make up for their physical flaws.for the goblins it was intelligence, individuals that were more cunning and intelligent would survive where less intelligent individuals died off. As a consequence goblins became a very intelligent species.

These goblins were able to make tools, form basic social structures, strategize, and coordinate to strengthen themselves. They also breed and mature incredibly fast. Under the protection and guidance of the older goblins the next generations were able to advance themselves and their society, strengthening their crafts, strategy, weapons and ultimately even magic. The mortality rate of these tribes dropped to incredibly low levels.

Eventually, the normally low population levels exploded and more food was required than they could farm or hunt easily so they decided to expand their territory. This process repeated at a frightening rate and the obstacles that stood in the way of this expansion were overcome by guile, careful planning and sheer numbers.

Unfortunately for the goblins, the human empires and kingdoms were terrified of this new threat that was more numerous and creative than humans, more industrial than dwarves and more skilful than the elves. They banded together in one of their brief moments of unison and formed a grand army to crusade and exterminate the goblins.

Though the goblins tried their best they were eventually overrun by the sheer weight of numbers that stood against them. The goblins were eradicated but at a huge cost to the allied army.

The residual fear that such a thing might happen again lead the other races to be constantly watchful of goblin behaviour for generations to come, banding together to annihilate goblins at the first signs of intelligence.

Thus natural selection now favoured individuals that didn't show their intelligence leading to the goblins of today.

After such a long time, even the ancient elves with all their ancient wisdom have forgotten the time of the goblins.

Now, slowly, goblins that are intelligent are more likely to survive...

Perhaps, next time, this time, things will be different...

[Blackhawk748]

Ive actually used goblinoids as the main enemy in a campaign that went to lvl 12. The BBEG was a Half Fiend Goblin named King Gormak. He was big, like really big, like Ogre sized, with wings and a flaming chain. In short, terrifying. He led several Goblinoid tribes:

The Spider Clan, a clan of Assassins and sneaks
The Wolf Clan, the cavalry
The Dragon Clan, the mages and alchemists
The Hawk Clan, the skirmishers and light infantry
The Ironbound Clan, mostly hobgoblins, the heavy infantry

My PCs learned really quick not to underestimate these goblins. Their leaders were smart and capable and their soldiers were fierce. The PCs where able to exploit the Goblins hatred of a kingdom of "Totally-not-Nazi-Ripoff" Elves to let them get some plot MacGuffins, and the leader of the Spider Clan didnt like how thinks were going (he never liked or trusted Gormak) so he made a deal with the PCs to try and kill Gormak. Didnt go to well for him.

Eventually the party was able to kill Gormak but it was rough. Now they never underestimate my goblins :smallamused:

[Kantolin]

It is a breath of cool air to see people in this topic not being fond of pathfinder's take on goblins. Thank you - that made my day, as I thought nobody really cared. ^_^

I would like to note, technically, there is no objective problem with any given race acting in any particular fashion. You could totally have a setting where humans act the way pathfinder's goblins act at the moment, and you wouldn't really need it to be a plot point - they act that way because they do here.

The trouble comes if you like goblins, and thus don't really want to play a... well, a clown.

And even if you're not yourself a clown (goblin raised by humans! None of that silly goblin culture!)... well, you get it thrown in your face every time you play. Being mistrusted by the town guard? Sure! Par for the course. But 'Uh oh, keep the matches away from that thing'? Obnoxious when it happens every time, when that's not the concept you wanted to play.

Grumble.

In my games, my goblins are usually down and out as well - and usually, this is Maglubiyet's fault (But once in awhile it isn't). They're the underfoot race that doesn't have a place to call home, but is desperately searching for somewhere where they can just live. They get none of the luck - they don't have the smithing dwarves have, they don't have the magic and nature elves have, they don't have the divine support the drow have, the strength the orcs have, they don't even have the tendency to succeed humans have. They get nothing - any successes are purely on their own shoulders.

Some(many) take that more bitterly than others, trying to carve their place out of the lives of the luckier races. Others try to take a more positive approach - dreamers, wishful thinkers. Yet something seems to /happen/ to the wishful thinkers which keeps them from succeeding - and it sure ain't no goblin.

I had an idea for an entire goblin-focused game based around 'the small suddenly-a-nation in the only place goblins will ever have, trying to keep it'.

And that's just on the heroic angle - I've done goblins as much more malicious as well.

...but I don't want to play a clown. I never realized that 'bad attention' could be worse than 'no attention', since normally they receive the latter. Grumble.

[justiceforall]

I added a roaming encounter to the 3.5 version of Keep on the Borderlands I ran, called the "Garythane Goblin Commandos" (bonus points if you know what other campaign set I tied Keep to :)). For those of you not familiar, the Keep is the second ever prerolled adventure ever released for DnD waaaaay back in Basic. I have the original, but got given a 3.5 conversion and set about adapting it for my own group. There were lots of races in "tribes" in the adventure, which I bound together under a military banner (Garythane) for story purposes. My favourites amongst all the tribes were the Hobgoblins, the Bugbears, and the Goblins especially.

The Garythane Goblin Commandos were a platoon of standard goblin warriors from the DMG, but traded Alertness for Stealthy, and were alternately equipped with either slings/longspears/studded leather, or shields/javelins/morningstars/leather armour. Unlike the other goblins in the Rift they were dedicated soldiers, and acted accordingly. They were well organised, and well led (a Sergeant Scout, a Corporal Ranger, a Sniper with a heavy crossbow, and a Specialist Wizard, all low levels using Elite stat arrays).

They plagued the party a number of times, preparing ambushes from cover or behind difficult terrain then withdrawing, or following the party and then warning the other denizens of the Rift that the PCs were coming (the party hated the latter FAR more than the former). The Commandos didn't break or run, they fought in prepared positions, and they knew their roles. They targeted spellcasters, they prevented the PCs flanking them whilst making sure they flanked the PCs, they moved away from the two weapon fighters, and they would try to box in the party archer.

The party both hated and loved them, hated them because the Commandos usually got the drop on them, and loved them because they had a tough series of fights with them before they finally depleted the Commandos enough to have them withdraw from the theatre.

There was very little changed except running them different, ie: with respect.

[afroakuma]

I'ma just leave this here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?350307-So-You-Want-To-Kill-A-Goblin-%28Fluff%29)

[Blackhawk748]

I'ma just leave this here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?350307-So-You-Want-To-Kill-A-Goblin-%28Fluff%29)

All hail Afro!