Sun School?

[justiceforall]

Hi playground,

The Junkyard Wars I thread (here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337864-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-I/page7)) got me back onto one of my old character ideas I played briefly before the campaign imploded - the shadow-jumper. My original idea was some sort of Shadowdancer who would appear next to people and whack them. A bunch of posters put me onto various shadow-pounce prestige classes, but all of those are either too world-specific or far too complex to qualify for. So I got onto Sun School - a generally terrible feat but it pretty much does exactly what I want it to do. The only problem is it *appears* I have to be a monk to use it.

So a couple of questions:

1. Is the only way to qualify for the feat to be a monk? I can't find anything else that provides flurry of blows.
2. Let's assume that point 1 is pretty much the only way to qualify, so I bite the bullet and take some levels of monk (maybe even only a single level). In my minds eye, the character idea always wore armour. But under "flurry of blows" it states the moment you wear armour, you lose it. That would then temporarily de-qualify my character from using Sun School?

The obvious solution is to ask the GM to ignore various restrictions here, but I would very much like to remain within the rules but find some sneaky way around it.

Help?

[Vaz]

A Brood Monkey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20041126a) is the only other access. The lists of stuff includes a "Shou Disciple" which has Flurry of blows; it doesn't, it has something called Martial Flurry. This may be acceptable, however.

You do not lose the Flurry of Blows when you are armoured. "When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows". Although you cannot use that flurry of blows, it is not lost and you still qualify. Monk 2 is a decent break point; you can pick up Invisible Fist, which allows you 1/4 rounds to go invisible.

[Shinken]

A Brood Monkey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20041126a) is the only other access. The lists of stuff includes a "Shou Disciple" which has Flurry of blows; it doesn't, it has something called Martial Flurry. This may be acceptable, however.
You missed that aside from Martial Flurry, a Shou Disciple progresses flurry of blows as if you were a monk.

If you are considering Sun School, I'd take a look at Warlock. Flee the Scene allows you to trigger Sun School at will. Snap Kick and Planar Touchstone (oxyrynchus) both grant you extra attacks with no need for a full-attack. If you do take Warlock, get Eldritch Claws and Beast Strike.

[justiceforall]

You do not lose the Flurry of Blows when you are armoured. "When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows". Although you cannot use that flurry of blows, it is not lost and you still qualify.

Oh snap! I misread it! Thanks! If nothing else, it validates the idea even as a non-strict-monk character (a monk classed character that wears armour anyway).


Monk 2 is a decent break point; you can pick up Invisible Fist, which allows you 1/4 rounds to go invisible.

Which source is that one from?


If you are considering Sun School, I'd take a look at Warlock.

I would, but the GM has added a mechanic to the game that only works for non-caster classes. So I would be looking at Shadowdancer or Horizon Walker as my off-the-top-of-my-head first looks.

[Shinken]

I would, but the GM has added a mechanic to the game that only works for non-caster classes. So I would be looking at Shadowdancer or Horizon Walker as my off-the-top-of-my-head first looks.
But Monk and Horizon Walker both get spell-like abilities as well. They are as much spellcasters as the Warlock is.

[justiceforall]

But Monk and Horizon Walker both get spell-like abilities as well. They are as much spellcasters as the Warlock is.

I believe the GM treats them as caster-classes for purposes of his rules. I believe his mechanics are based on the idea of the tiers, and warlocks come in high enough to warrant the exclusion.

I'm pretty sure Monks, Horizon Walkers and Shadowdancers are all tier 5 (4 at best?)

[Vaz]

Which source is that one from?
Exemplars of Evil.


I would, but the GM has added a mechanic to the game that only works for non-caster classes. So I would be looking at Shadowdancer or Horizon Walker as my off-the-top-of-my-head first looks.

Totemist (Magic of Incarnum) has Dimension Door from Blink Shirt Totem Bind.

@Shinken, cheers for that. Howver, it still doesn't work for the purposes of this. It explicitly states that a Shou Disciple loses his Flurry ability for wearing Medium+Heavy Armour/Shield.

[Telonius]

You could also get the ability by being a sufficiently high-level Swordsage. Shadow Stride lets you teleport as a move action. It's Shadow Hand 5, so you can get it at level 9. The improved version (Shadow Blink) turns on at level 13, and lets you teleport as a Swift action. It's also an Extraordinary ability (not listed as Supernatural, unlike most of Shadow Hand), so it functions even in an anti-magic field. Unlike Horizon Walker's Shifting ability, it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (Monk's Abundant Step is Su, so it doesn't provoke).

[WhamBamSam]

A Brood Monkey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20041126a) is the only other access. The lists of stuff includes a "Shou Disciple" which has Flurry of blows; it doesn't, it has something called Martial Flurry. This may be acceptable, however.

You do not lose the Flurry of Blows when you are armoured. "When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows". Although you cannot use that flurry of blows, it is not lost and you still qualify. Monk 2 is a decent break point; you can pick up Invisible Fist, which allows you 1/4 rounds to go invisible.Well, it's cheesy, but you can also get flurry from dragon auto-qualification for Disciple of the Eye.


Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers or spells that require the dragonblood subtype.


Flurry of Blows (Ex): Your disciple of the eye levels stack with your monk levels (if any) for the purpose of determining the attack bonuses you use when making a flurry of blows. (See the monk class feature, page 40 of the Player's Handbook.) If you don't have any monk levels, you are treated as a monk of the same class level as your disciple class level for determining your flurry of blows attack bonuses.You could also just qualify for Disciple of the Eye normally I suppose, but that's boring. It's also a worse dip than monk, which is really not a bad class if you forget that every level after the second one exists. The only reasons I'd ever use Disciple of the Eye would be a) if I wanted to do some manner of fear-op with Frightful Attack and/or Glare of the Enraged Dragon or b) I wanted to circumvent the need for a lawful alignment (using auto-qualification to get around the lawful prereq for Disciple of the Eye).




Jaunter might be worth looking into, and Telflammar Shadowlord certainly would (though Shadowlord has a small casting progression which might run afoul of your DMs rules). The two together are a good option, as they have a lot of overlap in their crappy prereqs. Something to the effect of Cobra Strike Monk 2/Totemist 4/Jaunter 4/Swordsage 2/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Swordsage +4 or Monk 2/Swordsage 5/Jaunter 4/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Swordsage +5. Or, since you were talking about using it with Assassin in the thread in question, Cobra Strike Monk 2/Factotum 3/Assassin 3/Jaunter 4/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Assassin +4 with Kung Fu Genius is a decent, Int SAD option.

I also got my only Iron Chef gold medal with a build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16886681&postcount=199) that does a lot with Sun School. It does use Psionics though, which probably runs afoul of your DM's magic rules.

[Vaz]

You can't qualify for Sun School earlier ECL5 anyway (Monk+full BAB flurry), and considering a feat is available at ECL6, why bother going through shenanigans?

[Phelix-Mu]

A couple levels in wizard can get you both access to luminous armour (the armour all armour wishes it could be!) and Abrupt Jaunt. I had some excellent fun with an int-based monk/wiz/abj champ build using Sun School.

On the other hand, if avoiding high tiers is what you are trying to do, then go with that. A little bit of wizard really takes the edge off of any optimization challenges.

[Red Fel]

Really? This far into the thread and nobody has mentioned the Crinti Shadow Marauder from Shining South?

The requirements are more merciful than those for Telflammar, and it's not a casting class. At CSM 5, you gain Shadow Pounce, and can make your full attack - that's full, not single - at the end of a teleport.

Either that, or play an Illithid Savant and eat a Monk. Because, really, Sun School is a huge pain-in-the-butt unless you're willing to dip Monk.

[infomatic]

Sohei (OA) arguably qualifies for Sun School, as well. Ki Frenzy specifically says the PC can make a "flurry of blows".

This does not mean you actually want to play a Sohei, granted.

[Ravens_cry]

A Brood Monkey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20041126a) is the only other access. The lists of stuff includes a "Shou Disciple" which has Flurry of blows; it doesn't, it has something called Martial Flurry. This may be acceptable, however.
Completly unrelated to the thread, but those are some awesome ideas nestled there for a particularly ancient feeling area. One thing I find D&D lacks is a feeling of true age. Sure, themes of decay and recent devastation run deep, but, for all that, things seem to work the same no matter how old they are. The thousands of year old dungeon's traps are still in perfect working order, the same spells are still spoken, the magic swords still sharp and unrusted, the items of power still potent.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Really? This far into the thread and nobody has mentioned the Crinti Shadow Marauder from Shining South?

The requirements are more merciful than those for Telflammar, and it's not a casting class. At CSM 5, you gain Shadow Pounce, and can make your full attack - that's full, not single - at the end of a teleport.

Either that, or play an Illithid Savant and eat a Monk. Because, really, Sun School is a huge pain-in-the-butt unless you're willing to dip Monk.


Hi playground,

The Junkyard Wars I thread (here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337864-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-I/page7)) got me back onto one of my old character ideas I played briefly before the campaign imploded - the shadow-jumper. My original idea was some sort of Shadowdancer who would appear next to people and whack them. A bunch of posters put me onto various shadow-pounce prestige classes, but all of those are either too world-specific or far too complex to qualify for. So I got onto Sun School - a generally terrible feat but it pretty much does exactly what I want it to do. The only problem is it *appears* I have to be a monk to use it.

I would have suggested Blade of Orien as well, but I'm assuming that the OP was asking for setting neutral material.

[Shinken]

Really? This far into the thread and nobody has mentioned the Crinti Shadow Marauder from Shining South?
Considering the OP mentioned he isn't interested in it in right there in the OP...

[justiceforall]

So a follow up question - would decisive strike AFC still qualify you for sun school, or would it *have* to be flurry?

As an aside - haha Jaunter looks awesome! I'm guessing that Benign Transposition (Sp) doesn't activate Sun School?

[Vaz]

Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain flurry of blows (or any later improvements to that class feature).

Sadly, yes, you don't gain Flurry, so you'd need to get flurry in some other manner.

[justiceforall]

Sadly, yes, you don't gain Flurry, so you'd need to get flurry in some other manner.

How does that interact with other abilities that improve Flurry of Blows then? For instance, if you were a Decisive Strike monk and you took a level of Disciple of the Eye?

[Vaz]

You don't gain any improvements to Flurry of blows. It would be down to the DM decision whether it would either

a) Stack Decisive Strike - reasonable
b) Grant you Flurry of Blows - you have monk levels but no Flurry, no mans land as far as the Disciple of the Eye is concerned.
c) nothing - currently, by RAW, but RAW is silly.

[infomatic]

Dug an old Sohei post out, mixing Sun School and Bear Warrior (the downside with Sun School is that you specifically get only one attack, so you might as well make it an Improved Grab. Totemist also gets you at-will Dimension Door via Blink Shirt.


Sohei11/Totemist4/BearWarrior5
BAB: 16
Saves: 15/8/9
Bonus feats: WF (claw), Diehard, Defensive Strike, Deflect Arrows
Feats: Bonus Essentia, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Sun School, Improved Natural Attack (claw), Open Chakra (hands), Multiattack

Essentia: 6
Typical Soulmelds: Sphinx Claws (hands), Totem Avatar (Totem, 4 points), Blink Shirt (2), Shedu Crown

Gets: Greater Frenzy (+4 Str/Dex, -1 penalty during flurry, +20 speed) ,Brown Bear form; DR2, Immune to Stunning/Bullrush/Sleep, Mettle, 3rd level spells. Scent, 9 levels of decent skills.

That was specifically for a Sohei-focused build (and it used the 3.5 update to the class from Dragon). Obviously more Totemist levels would be superior, So Totemist11/Sohei4/BearWarrior5. You'll need Extra Rage feat, b/c technically you only get Flurry of Blows while in a Ki Frenzy.

So basically you're a pouncing, 'porting, flurrying brown bear. What's not to love?

[justiceforall]

Whilst y'all are being so helpful, another query - from the SRD:

"At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes."

So - let's say I use TWF to attack with a non-monk weapon, and kick someone in the face with my secondary attack (which I assume is allowable?). The above paragraph implies that even if I'm not using flurry of blows, the secondary kick still does full strength damage?


On another note - looks like I actually get to start this character tonight, who'd have thought. I've ended up starting as a human Ranger (simple way to qualify for Horizon Walker, and is a better level 1 than Monk which I can get later).

[justiceforall]

Actually don't worry about this, I'm moving it to the RAW Q and A thread.

[justiceforall]

So my character at the moment is:

Human Ranger 1, S14,D16,C14,I10,W13,C8 - Imp Unarmed Strike, TWF. Uses a reach weapon and kicks people using TWF.

Plan for advancement is:
Rng 2
Mnk 1
Mnk 2
Rng 3
Horizon Walker 1-6

The only two feats I know for sure I want are Sun School (unusable until I get Horizon Walker 6), and Snap Kick (can't get the BAB until level 10). I am allowed to retrain at will using the normal rules in the PHB II, provided it stays in a consistent theme (hence my first two feat choices, they get to retrain at 2nd and 3rd levels since I get those abilities anyway).

Suggestions for feat/etc choices as I level? I must admit I'm kind of at a loss. There's a bunch of choices I can make that aren't horrible, but nothing really leaping out to interest me.

I am using the same restrictions as posted in the OP - I can't use ToB (other than Snap Kick which has been permitted), ToM, psionics, or setting specific books outside of Greyhawk unless they are very generic classes/feats.

[justiceforall]

Noone? I would have thought this would be super-easy for most of the optimisers?

Or are they all tired because they either just finished submitting for Iron Chef/Junkyard, or are judging for those? :)