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Jarl
2007-02-09, 11:39 AM
"Guns. Lots of guns."

I'm running a very loosy goosy improv D&D game at Irc.Rizon.Net's #Dungeon and #DungeonOOC, and I figured, what the heck, let's give guns to fantasy people.
The basic means of measurement is a d20 roll when creating a new character to see what their homeland or region's level of technology is: 1 is late middle ages, 20 is pre-Spanish/American War.
A society 8 and under has no gunpowder weapons. 9-12 has rockets and cannons. 13-15 has flintlock/matchlock muskets and pistols, and a character may take an Exotic Weapons prof. in a single firearm. 16-18 has percussion cap rifles and shotguns, and certain classes start play with one firearm proficiency. 19 has cartridge firearms, and a character may an Exotic Weapons Proficiency in Personal Firearms or Longarms. 20 has the same previous firearms, and Personal Firearms and Longarms in these regions are Martial Weapons (for the most part).

Feats
A few feats scavenged from d20 Modern, d20 Modern: Past, and the Eberron Campaign Setting, as well as a few old feats jury-rigged to allow firearms.

Martial Weapons Proficiency
Same as core, with the following addition: A character from a region with a tech level greater than or equal to a firearm's tech level may take the weapon as a martial weapon unless it is specified as Exotic. Otherwise, all firearms are exotic weapons.

Exotic Weapons Proficiency
Same as core, with the following addition: A person from a region with a certain tech level has varying options when becoming proficient in the use of firearms. Some firearms, regardless of the character's level of familiarity with gunpowder weapons, remain exotic either due to their rarity or the manner in which they are used. See above and below for more details.

Monkey Grip
As the Complete Warrior feat, with the following addition:
Benefit: You may use a Longarm in one hand at a -4 penalty, or a Heavy Personal Firearm in one hand at a -2 penalty. You may not wield either weapon in your offhand.
Normal: Longarms and Heavy Personal firearms wielded by medium sized characters must be held in two hands.

Rapid Reload
As core, with the following additions:
Requirements: Weapon Proficiency (Any Firearm)
Benefit: Reloading a firearm with an already filled box magazine or speed loader is a free action. Reloading a revolver without a speed loader, or reloading any firearm with an internal magazine, is a move action.
Normal: Reloading a firearm with an already filled box magazine or speed loader is a move action. Reloading a revolver without a speed loader, or reloading any firearm with an internal magazine, is a full-round action.

Burst Fire
Requirements: Wisdom 13, Weapon Proficiency (Any Firearm)
Benefit: When using an automatic firearm with at least five bullets loaded, the character may fire a short burst as a single attack against a single target. The character receives a -4 penalty on the attack roll, but deal +2 dice of damage. Firing a burst expends five bullets and can only be done if the weapon has five bullets in it.
Normal: Autofire uses ten bullets, targets a 10-foot-by-10-foot area, and can't be aimed at a specific target. Without this feat, if a character attempts an autofire attack at a specific target, it simply counts as a normal attack and all the extra bullets are wasted.
Special: A Ranger may chose to take Burst Fire instead of Many Shot when applying the benefits of Improved Combat Style, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. As usual, this only applies when wearing light or no armor. A Monk may take Burst Fire as a bonus feat at first level.

Monk Weapon Proficiency
Requirements: Weapon Focus (any melee), Flurry of Blows class feature
Benefit: When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack with the chosen weapon as though it were a special monk weapon.
Normal: When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).

Akimbo
(Taken down for re-construction)

Base Class Variants
Some alterations to the base classes based on these newfangled shootin' contraptions.

A Bard from a region with tech level 19 or greater may start play proficient in a single firearm.

A Barbarian from a region with tech level 20 may start play proficient in a single firearm.

A Cleric from a region with tech level 19 or greater and the War Domain may start play with a martial weapons proficiency in their diety's favored firearm.

A Druid who uses a firearm is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

A Fighter from a region with tech level 16 or greater may start play proficient in a single firearm. 19 or greater, and the character may start play proficient in Personal Firearms or Longarms. Level 20, most firearms are Martial Weapons, which Fighters begin play proficient in.

A Monk with the Akimbo Feat may flurry with any firearm.

A Paladin may use the Ranged Smiting feat (from the Book of Exalted Deeds) with any firearm. A Paladin from a region with tech level 18 or greater may start play proficient in a single firearm. At level 20, most firearms are martial weapons, which Paladins start play proficient in.

A Psion from a region with tech level 19 or greater may start play proficient in a single firearm.

A Psychic Warrior from a region with tech level 17 or greater may start play proficient in a single firearm. 19 or greater, and the character may start play proficient in Personal Firearms or Longarms. Level 20, most firearms are Martial Weapons, which Psychic Warriors begin play proficient in.

A Ranger from a region with tech level 16 or greater may start play proficient in a single firearm. 19 or greater, and the character may start play proficient in Personal Firearms or Longarms. Level 20, most firearms are Martial Weapons, which Rangers begin play proficient in. A ranger with a firearms proficiency may chose to take Burst Fire instead of Manyshot when gaining the benefits of "Improved Combat Style".

A Rogue from a region with tech level 16 or greater may start play proficient in a single firearm. Level 20, a character may start play proficient in Personal Firearms or Longarms. A Rogue may sneak attack with a Longarm from 30 feet.

A Sorcerer from a region with tech level 20 may start play proficient in a single firearm.

A Soulknife from a region with tech level 18 or greater may start play proficient in a single firearm. 20 and he may start play proficient in two.

A Warlock from a region with tech level 19 or greater may start play proficient in one firearm.

A Warmage from a region with tech level 18 or greater may start play proficient in two firearms. 20 and he may start play proficient in two.

A Wizard from a region with tech level 20 may start play proficient in a single firearm.

***

-Split the post in two in order to keep the character limits happy. Weapons list is further down below.

Neon Knight
2007-02-09, 04:39 PM
Why have any firearm be an exotic weapon? This has always bugged me. Guns are simple to use; that is one of their advantages. Early firearms had a lengthy reload process that was complicated, but that does not impact your ability to point the shooty end at the enemy and pull a bloody trigger.

I'm just sayin.

Jibar
2007-02-09, 04:44 PM
Well when you say that, you should also mention why wielding a bastard sword or katana requires exotic weapon profiency. That's just holding onto one bit and hitting with the other right?

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-09, 05:03 PM
Well when you say that, you should also mention why wielding a bastard sword or katana requires exotic weapon profiency. That's just holding onto one bit and hitting with the other right?

Crossbows are already simple and despite the radically differant loading systems firing them is simple.

A Katana only requires exotic weapon proficiency because Wizards doesn't understand why someone would use a 1d8 damage weapon two-handed.

Iituem
2007-02-09, 05:27 PM
If you hunt back about three or four pages, you'll find a rather ingenious weapon point system someone worked out for each of the weapons in the PHB lists. A weapon with a score of about 3.5-5.5 qualified as Simple, 5.5-7.5 as Martial and 7.5-10 as Exotic. The ranking of Simple/Martial/Exotic is based upon power, rather than physical ease. It might not fit so nicely for you in a roleplay sense, but it's a necessary game balance provision. No base weapon should -ever- have a score greater than 10.

cferejohn
2007-02-09, 06:26 PM
Aforementioned weapon balancing thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31817

Assasinater
2007-02-09, 06:35 PM
That point system is pretty unrealistic and causes poor roleplay. I mean, crossbows were really easy to use and very deadly, but then, it has been banned by the Papacy. Similar things could happen in our games, where the power of a weapon may not be the sole variable in the equation.

Jarl
2007-02-09, 07:14 PM
As I mentioned before, it's still a work in progress. One of the things I'm working on is a system for determining the proficiency required for a given firearm. The early tech ones that take months to reload and such probably remain exotic, while the simpler ones (especially at tech level 20) are martial weapons and just need a level of fighter to unlock or Martial Weapons Proficiency (Personal Firearms) or MWP (Longarms).

-Even then there'll probably be some big one's that need an EWP, like how in d20 Modern you need EWP to use a rocket launcher or such.

Iituem
2007-02-10, 09:54 AM
You know, if you wanted you could make a separate weapons tree for firearms. Simple Firearms Proficiency, Martial Firearms Proficiency and Exotic Firearms Proficiency. Make Martial require Simple and Exotic require Martial. Have few/no characters start out with Simple Firearms Prof. If simple firearms are equivalent to martial weaponry, make martial firearms equivalent to exotic and exotic firearms above those. That way you can make more powerful firearms at the price of having to take feats to effectively use them.

Matthew
2007-02-10, 11:03 AM
That point system is pretty unrealistic and causes poor roleplay. I mean, crossbows were really easy to use and very deadly, but then, it has been banned by the Papacy. Similar things could happen in our games, where the power of a weapon may not be the sole variable in the equation.

Actually, the use of all Bows were prohibited by the Papacy against fellow Christians. The Cross Bow was not singled out, as is commonly believed.

Bastard Swords are Two Handed Martial Weapons that can be used a a One Handed Weapon with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) (some interpretations suggest it can be used One Handed without Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), albeit at a -4 AB penalty).

bosssmiley
2007-02-10, 11:19 AM
Why have any firearm be an exotic weapon? This has always bugged me. Guns are simple to use; that is one of their advantages. Early firearms had a lengthy reload process that was complicated, but that does not impact your ability to point the shooty end at the enemy and pull a bloody trigger.

I'm just sayin.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency = ability to use proficiently. In the case of firearms this is far more than just the simple 'point-and-click' interface, it includes the relatively arcane procedures of reloading and caring for the weapon. Without ammunition or proper care a gun is just a particularly baroque club.

Strange as it may seem to our modern eyes, unlike a tool-derived weapon like an axe or a hammer, a gun isn't inherently intuitive in function. If you've never seen one in operation before, you're liable to be stumped by it. Sure, the ergonomics of stock, trigger and barrel are easy, but there's a reason Jacob de Gheyn had to illustrate the 16(?) steps of re-loading a musket in "The Exercise of Armes". One wrong step and it's *click*, nadda, back to square one.

Hence Exotic Weapon Proficiency for firearms.

jjpickar
2007-02-10, 11:21 AM
I think the exotic weapon feats don't reflect the difficulty of learning to use the weapon but how to use it well. From personal experience, I found it easy to fire a pistol but aiming was the tricky bit. It was hard to hit a target ten yards away even after a lot of practice. Personally I think fighters should be the only class allowed to treat some firearms as martial weapons to reflect their rigorous combat training.

Matthew
2007-02-10, 11:25 AM
Exotic Weapon Proficiencies, to me, are just for weapons not commonly used or available and therefore not part of Simple or Martial weapons training. Almost any Exotic Weapon could be Martial or Simple in a non default Core D&D setting.

Assasinater
2007-02-10, 11:57 AM
Actually, the use of all Bows were prohibited by the Papacy against fellow Christians. The Cross Bow was not singled out, as is commonly believed.

That was not the point, though it is good to know.

Anyway, I think while the muskets and other older firearms should be "exotic", the firearms in the uppermost technological levels can be martial, or even simple(just pull the damn trigger :smalltongue:).

Matthew
2007-02-10, 12:19 PM
Well, it partly relates to the point. Cross Bows of that period were not more powerful than ordinary Bows. Late Medieval Cross Bows could be vastly more powerful, though.

The problem lies in how D&D presents Damage Dice. On the one hand it expands them to simulate power (1D6, 1D8, 1D10) and on the other hand it uses Strength Bonus Modifiers for Bow Damage. These appear to operate outside of the Proficiency System entirely. I think it would be considerably more consistant to give Cross Bows a Strength Bonus Modifier to Damage, rather than expanding their Damage Dice.

Assasinater
2007-02-10, 03:08 PM
I'm not sure... as long as the whole system isn't changed to something where a direct hit from a crossbow could take down a level 10+ well-armored character, I don't see the point in making small changes.

Matthew
2007-02-10, 03:22 PM
Heh. Well, that is one way of looking at it (and one I have some sympathy with). Let's just say, if I were to implement such a change, it wouldn't be the only one!

Martial Weapons (Alternative) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31788)
Simple Weapons (Alternative) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31637)

Iituem
2007-02-10, 10:21 PM
Wait. How could crossbows possibly take advantage of a user's strength? The pull power of a crossbow is set, unlike that of a bow/composite bow, where it varies with the power of the archer. It makes sense to have the composite bows that take advantage of Strength, but a crossbow lacks the physical ability to make use of that, as all one requires is sufficient strength to actually load the crossbow (putting it at maximum power already). Crossbows don't suffer strength penalties to attack, but they cannot garner bonuses either.

Guns, similarly, are more or less unaffected by strength (barring actually lifting the damn things).

Jarl
2007-02-10, 11:16 PM
Right. Most of the firearms, especially older ones that require the full round reloading and such, are exotic in all tech levels. Also, each firearm requires a different prof.
At higher levels, it's seperated into just the two profs, Personal and Longarm.

-Hey, it's better than in the DMG. "Exotic Weapons (Firearms)".

Matthew
2007-02-11, 07:49 AM
Wait. How could crossbows possibly take advantage of a user's strength? The pull power of a crossbow is set, unlike that of a bow/composite bow, where it varies with the power of the archer. It makes sense to have the composite bows that take advantage of Strength, but a crossbow lacks the physical ability to make use of that, as all one requires is sufficient strength to actually load the crossbow (putting it at maximum power already). Crossbows don't suffer strength penalties to attack, but they cannot garner bonuses either.

Guns, similarly, are more or less unaffected by strength (barring actually lifting the damn things).

Not the users Strength - that would be crazy! They would have their own Strength Rating.

Jarl
2007-02-12, 06:42 PM
Weapons
A small sample of weapons available. Names may vary based on region of origin, and are vaguely based off the weapons found in the d20 Modern Core Rulebook, d20 Modern: Past, and the Dungeons and Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide.

Key:
Name of Weapon
Flavor text
Size, proficiency, and tech level
Damage: (number of dice, sides, type of damage)
Critical: (threat range, critical multiplier)
Ammo: (the number of shots that the weapon can hold, ammunition used by the weapon, rate of fire, and manner in which the weapon is loaded)
Range Increment: (how many feet from the target the weapon can be without taking a penalty to the attack roll)
Weight: (how much the weapon weighs)
Price: (how much the weapon costs)
Special: (anything else you should know)

Small characters can use Light Personal Firearms in one hand, and Medium and heavier Personal Firearms in two hands (Unless the weapon is specifically built for smaller characters). They may use longarms as normally. Longarms require two hands to use. Heavy Personal Firearms require two hands to use.
Unless specified as an exotic weapon, a firearm counts as a martial weapon for those who live in regions with tech levels greater than or equal to the specified level.

Matchlock Musket
The grand-pappy, 4 feet long and weighs a ton.
Heavy Exotic Longarm (Tech Level 13)
Damage: 1d10 Bludgeoning
Critical: 20/x2
Ammo: 1 .50 ball Single, Int
Range Increment: 50ft
Weight: 12 lbs
Price: 500 GP

Heavy Cannon
Can hurl large metal balls undetected from over 300 yards.
Siege Weapon (Tech level 13)
Damage: 2d12
Critical: 20/x3
Ammo: 1 4lb Cannonball
Range Increment: 500 feet
Weight: 500 lbs
Price: 3000 GP

Matchlock Pistol
First pistol. If the gunpowder's wet, you can still use it as a club.
Light Exotic Personal Firearm (Tech Level 14)
Damage: 2d4 Bludgeoning
Critical: 20/x2
Ammo: 1 .33 ball Single, Int
Range Increment: 20ft
Weight: 4 lbs
Price: 650 GP

Chekov 1-3
Pistol. The first of the mantle-piece weapons.
Light Exotic Personal Firearm (Tech Level 15)
Damage: 1d12+1 Piercing
Critical: 19-20/x2
Ammo: 1 .33 ball Single, Int
Range Increment: 80ft
Weight: 6 lbs
Price: 2800 GP
Special: This weapon is made magically, and has a +1 enhancement on it.

Blunderbuss
Proto-shotgun. Can knock a man off his feet, just by holding onto it.
Light Exotic Longarm (Tech Level 16)
Damage: 2d6 Bludgeoning
Critical: 20/x3
Ammo: 1 .50 ball Single, Int
Range Increment: 20ft
Weight: 15 lbs
Price: 750 GP

Fenimore Rifle
At last, rifling allows for more accurate weapons, manufacturing leads to more of them.
Heavy Martial Longarm (Tech Level 17)
Damage: 2d4 Piercing
Critical: 18-20/x2
Ammo: 1 .50 Single, Int
Range Increment: 250 feet
Weight: 17lbs
Price: 900 GP

Crockett&Boone W-20
Pistol. You don't need that good of aim: It shoots big bullets.
Light Martial Personal Firearm (Tech Level 18)
Damage: 2d8 Piercing
Critical: 20/x3
Ammo: 1 .50 Single, Int
Range Increment: 70 feet
Weight: 2lbs
Price: 900 GP

Leone-S7 Revolver
Pistol. The six-shooter, the peace-maker, the cemetery-filler.
Medium Martial Personal Firearm (Tech Level 19)
Damage: 2d6 Piercing
Critical: 20/x3
Ammo: 6 .35 Single, Cylinder
Range Increment: 40 feet
Weight: 3lbs
Price: 600 GP

Mullberryfield 3-Aught
Rifle. This thing can shoot a flea off a dog's back from over 200 yards.
Heavy Martial Longarm (Tech Level 19)
Damage: 2d8 Piercing
Critical: 18-20/x2
Ammo: 4 .35 Single, Cylinder
Range Increment: 400 feet
Weight: 3lbs
Price: 1100 GP

Crockett&Boone 89
Pistol. Preferred weapon of cops and robbers.
Light Martial Personal Firearm (Tech Level 20)
Damage: 1d8 Piercing
Critical: 20/x2
Ammo: 8 .22 Semiautomatic, Box
Range Increment: 80 feet
Weight: 2lbs
Price: 500 GP

Campbell and Williams 12-gauge
Shotgun. This is your boomstick.
Heavy Martial Longarm (Tech Level 19)
Damage: 2d10 Piercing and Bludgeoning
Critical: 20/x2
Ammo: 4 12g Single, Int
Range Increment: 20 feet
Weight: 12lbs
Price: 800 GP

Heavy Valentine
Machine Gun. A heavy gun that clickity clacks and thunders as it unleashes ammo in a bloody rampage.
Heavy Exotic Longarm (Tech Level 20)
Damage: 2d4 Piercing
Critical: 20/x2
Ammo: 30 .35 Automatic, Box
Range Increment: 50 feet
Weight: 15lbs
Price: 1200 GP

Campbell and Williams Jackhammer
Shotgun. Holds lots of big bullets, and gets rid of them fast.
Heavy Exotic Longarm (Tech Level 20)
Damage: 2d8 Piercing and Bludgeoning
Critical: 20/x3
Ammo: 6 12g Semiautomatic, Cyl
Range Increment: 20 feet
Weight: 12lbs
Price: 1300 GP

Woo/Fat 2-42
Pistol. Comes in stylish black or gunmetal.
Medium Exotic Personal Firearm (Tech Level 20)
Damage: 2d6 Piercing
Critical: 19-20/x2
Ammo: 18 .22 Semiautomatic, Box
Range Increment: 50 feet
Weight: 5lbs
Price: 700 GP
Special: The Woo/Fat 2-42 is a monk weapon, and Monks may start play proficient in it, depending on their home region's tech level.

Bullets
5 gp for:
40 .35 bullets
30 .50 bullets
30 .22 bullets
50 .33 balls
30 .50 balls
20 12g shells
Can be enchanted as per normal ammunition

***
Gonna start adding weapons to this post, supplementary rules to the first post.

-Post split!

jjpickar
2007-02-12, 06:57 PM
Cool New guns! The only problem I see is during role played combat:

Player:"I pull out my Woo Fat and start blasting!"

Everyone else: "You do what?!"

soylentplaid
2007-02-15, 03:07 PM
Hmmm. Tech level 20 Monk + Two Weapon Fighting + a pair of Woo/Fats...

I'd like to recommend your bringing of this game world to this forum please.

Jarl
2007-02-18, 11:20 PM
Update:
Re-working Akimbo to make it more accessable to non-monks and useful to monks.
Also re-working the personal firearm/longarm martial weapons nightmare.

-Additionally, more longarms in the future, as well as a few guns with Automatic fire so we can get some use out of Burst Fire.

Jarl
2007-02-22, 08:27 PM
Added a tommy gun, fiddled with the Mulberryfield 3-aught.

-Still a WIP

mikeejimbo
2007-02-23, 01:10 AM
Oh man, I'm glad I clicked on this thread, guns are fun.

"Deity's favorite firearm" made me chuckle for some reason.

cferejohn
2007-02-23, 02:54 AM
Not the users Strength - that would be crazy! They (crossbows) would have their own Strength Rating.

Well that's what heavy/light crossbows are supposed to simulate. A light crossbow is one you can load by hand, while a heavy one has a crank or similar device and takes more time to load. You could just add multiple varieties of heavy crossbows and add a damage bonus instead of increasing the die. So light crossbow is as it is, medium crossbow does 1d8+1 and loads as a heavy crossbow (same average damage), and a heavy crossbow does 1d8+2 and takes 2 rounds to load (making it of dubious value after the first shot in many circumstances, but it would make a nice (if expensive) infantry weapon to be fired once and then dropped as you charge into combat).

Edit: Dude, we are talking about weapons here. It's kind of silly that I can't say, umm, that word that means rooster and also preparing a gun or crossbow to fire...

Matthew
2007-02-24, 02:10 PM
I know, indeed that understanding is integral to the concept, but what I am talking about is giving them a Strength Rating that affects Attack Bonus and Damage Bonus. It's more clearly explained here: Simple Weapons (Alternative) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31637)