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GolemsVoice
2007-02-09, 11:43 AM
I always wondered. There is a hell, which fullfills everything you need to be a hell, and every demon is proud of it. There's fire, demons, devils, the tortured souls of the damned, red rocks, a hellish landscape in thousand ways. And they have Carceri, the plane of entrapment for the wicked.
But are the heavens paradise? They are good and all that stuff, but where are the paradises? Every god has a plane for himself, more or less, but they all don't sound beautiful enough to make you want to go there.
And if I say heavens, it's the upper planes, and hell is The Nine Hells +The Abyss.
So, where do brave, good and faithfull servants go after their deads?

Galathir
2007-02-09, 11:54 AM
There are the seven mountains of Celestia which is where ultimate goodness is idealized and is defined as law and good, understanding and mercy. At least in the Manual of the Planes, it is the paradise of good and faithful servants and is ruled by Bahamut, Heironeous, Moradin, and Yondalla. Of course, there are also the Twin Paradises of Bytopia and the Blessed Fields of Elysium.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-09, 12:01 PM
Ever wonder what a Lantern Archon is? It's a dead paladin.

Amotis
2007-02-09, 12:04 PM
The Misty Isles? The Hunter of the Misty Isles has to be looking for something good else he wouldn't have taken the sub-par prc class.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-09, 12:09 PM
The planar handbook details the good and bad planes where people go to after they move on.

Ramza00
2007-02-09, 12:09 PM
We've found a kind of paradise
In a flowers bloom.
We've seen the end of a mystic land
So close it meets the parting sun.
We've shared the thoughts that two could share,
We feel the truth, magic that we send...

Searching for something new
Isle of Gold in flowers' bloom...

We've heard a kind of paradise
Beyond the desert's dunes.
We've walked the earth in solitude,
So cold we need the warmth of sun.
We've lived the life that we could live,
We see the truth, magic that begins...

Searching for something new
Isle of Gold in flowers' bloom...

We've found a kind of paradise,
Below a sky so new.
We've weaved a web of mystery so wide,
We need the light of day.
We've worn the cloak of secret lives,
We've seen the truth, magic that we send...

Searching for something new
Isle of Gold in flowers' bloom.....

So when will it end?
So when, when will we meet, my friend?

the_tick_rules
2007-02-09, 12:21 PM
yeah the upper planes are the good paradises.

clericwithnogod
2007-02-09, 12:27 PM
Anyplace there's a bunch of dead paladins, you have a paradise. So, any campaign world can be a paradise with the proper application of sword and spell.

Drascin
2007-02-09, 12:27 PM
Depending on your outlook and the gods you revered, you are sent to one of the upper planes, which I imagine would be the one that resembles most closely what you'd call paradise. That, or the celestials are a bunch of bastards (also likely) and we all go to that boring Celestia thingy. Your call.

kamikasei
2007-02-09, 01:33 PM
Anyplace there's a bunch of dead paladins, you have a paradise. So, any campaign world can be a paradise with the proper application of sword and spell.

I am reminded of the book Quicksilver:

"Anyway, lay off with the bible-talk! Soon enough I'll be in a place where they read the bible all the time."
"Heaven?"
"Does it sound like heaven?"

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-09, 02:53 PM
EDIT: I think I misunderstood didn't read the question, but let's say this is here for reference.

In the traditional Great Wheel setting (Greyhawk's outer planes, nowadays, although in older additions they applied to pretty much any setting), where the Nine Hells and Carceri exist, there is a balance of planes: just as many Lawful as Chaotic, just as many Evil as Good. Specifically, the outer planes that Good souls are meant to go to in the afterlife are:

The Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia (borderline between LN and LG)
The Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia (Lawful Good)
The Twin Paradises of Bytopia (Borderline between LG and NG)
The Blessed Fields of Elysium (Neutral Good)
The Wilderness of the Beastlands (Borderline between NG and CG)
The Olympian Glades of Arborea (Chaotic Good)
The Heroic Domains of Ysgard (Borderline between CG and CN)

These provide both an afterlife for souls of the appropriate alignment and attitude, and a source for various types of celestials and other Outsiders.

Source: Manual of the Planes and a half-recollection of the old Planescape setting.

Other settings like Faerun have their own specific cosmologies and their own specific paradises (or oblivions, or hells, as appropriate). A notable exception is Eberron, where all (or at least, most) departed souls wind up on the same Gehenna-esque (that is, Gehenna of Greek myth, not the D&D cosmology) plane of dull, gradual oblivion. Eberron's religions all have their own unique ways of addressing this afterlife.

oriong
2007-02-09, 02:57 PM
One of the big differences to keep in mind in the heavens/hells thing is that they don't serve the same purpose they do in a normal religious philosophy.

The hells aren't just places for bad people to go to be punished, nor are the heavens unending bliss for good souls, they're just the most appropraite 'moral ecosystem' for the souls to end up. The hells suck pretty bad simply because there are a lot of evil jerks there already, but they aren't just there to make the bad people suffer, in some ways they're just as much a 'reward' to loyal followers of evil as the heavens are.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-02-09, 02:59 PM
If all else fails, you can always create a plane or similar place to fit that description if you don't thing anything that already exists fits what you're looking for.

Indon
2007-02-09, 03:26 PM
Well, this thread has got me wondering what deity/force a character has to worship to end up in Mechanus and get assimilated... or whatever would happen to a mortal soul on the plane.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-09, 03:36 PM
As far as Mechanus goes, I know that there at least used to be a Demigod called Primus, the One who was directly served by the Modrons.... I think they might have written him out of 3.x with his polygonal henchmen, though. =(

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-09, 03:46 PM
Golemsvoice? Demons and Devils live in two totally different planes. And they fight in a third one, if I'm not mistaken.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-09, 03:58 PM
As far as Mechanus goes, I know that there at least used to be a Demigod called Primus, the One who was directly served by the Modrons.... I think they might have written him out of 3.x with his polygonal henchmen, though. =(

In 2nd edition certain gods like Mystra lived on Mechanus but they changed it.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 12:59 AM
Golemsvoice? Demons and Devils live in two totally different planes. And they fight in a third one, if I'm not mistaken.

They fight in all the Lower Planes, pretty much. Abyss, Baator, Gehenna, Carceri, the Grey Waste, Pandemonium...


And considering that most of the Upper Planes are modelled directly after various paradises (Olympia, Valhalla, etc.), I should think they count as paradises. The D&D books don't give a lot of detail, but the old AD&D Planescape books certainly painted them as relative paradises (although Arcadia, I think, was being ruined by the Harmonium).

Dervag
2007-02-10, 01:17 AM
I've always wondered what plane Fiddler's Green would be on...

What was the Harmonium?

Thomas
2007-02-10, 01:27 AM
A Lawful Good group that policed Sigil and the Planes. Their motto was pretty much "You'll either be good, or you'll cry and be good." Forcing everyone else to be Lawful and Good. The group obviously contained a lot of Lawful Neutral members.

I loved 'em. Lawful Good makes some of the best oppressive, totalitarian authorities...

Anyway, their methods and attitudes eventually started to erode the plane they were on, causing one layer to shift into another plane, I think (one that "resonated" better with the Harmonium's actual methods).

I'd have to dig out my Planes of Law to figure out. (Incidentally, I also loved how Planescape made the Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic axis much more important and prominent than the Good-Neutral-Evil axis.)

starwoof
2007-02-10, 02:40 AM
As far as Mechanus goes, I know that there at least used to be a Demigod called Primus, the One who was directly served by the Modrons.... I think they might have written him out of 3.x with his polygonal henchmen, though. =(
Dragon magazine had an article about him rigth before Tome of Magic came out. He became a binder-thingy after Orcus killed him.

But the modrons are still gone.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 03:06 AM
Lies, filthy lies!

Jack Mann
2007-02-10, 05:20 AM
Modrons continue to live on in the faces of clocks and unnaturally orderly children.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-10, 05:25 AM
Yeah, there is: Evergold.

The place where Sune, Sharess, and Hanali Celanil all hang out.

Sign me up, baby.

bosssmiley
2007-02-10, 05:44 AM
As far as Mechanus goes, I know that there at least used to be a Demigod called Primus, the One who was directly served by the Modrons.... I think they might have written him out of 3.x with his polygonal henchmen, though. =(

The Modrons are still around; they're just...undergoing a period of cultural introversion right now (caused by the ideological and cosmological ramifications of chaos mathematics). There was a WOTC web enhancement written about them, they get a few mentions in the Mechanus section of MotP and in the Planar Handbook.

I look forward to the triumphant return of the Great March when WOTC finally realises that no-one is actually cares about the sheer tedium that is the Formians (giant kettle of boiling water over their hives = problem solved).

DISTANT SOUND OF MARCHING FEET

Duodrone Sergeant: "1010001"
Monodrone Squad: "101001"
Duodrone Sergeant: "1010011"
Monodrone Squad: "1010111"
(continued ad infinitum)

GolemsVoice
2007-02-10, 05:52 AM
Hmm, so there's no pearly gates and singing angels when a paladin dies?
He just knocks at the door, generic archon #6673 opens. "Ah, you must be the new one. Welcome to heaven and all. Sorry you died. (You don't need to have died a as a martyr, but it helps!!! (ha ha)). Here's your uniform, flaming sword and all. Get dressed, there's some battle with the hells in one hour."
And I know that devils and demons are seperate things, they are just hellish enough to represent our imagination of hell.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 06:53 AM
Yeah, there is: Evergold.

The place where Sune, Sharess, and Hanali Celanil all hang out.

Sign me up, baby.

Now that's a nice idea: a Faerūnian travel agency that sends people to Evergold for a week. Build a spa there, maybe.


Duodrone Sergeant: "1010001"
Monodrone Squad: "101001"
Duodrone Sergeant: "1010011"
Monodrone Squad: "1010111"
(continued ad infinitum)

81, 41, 83, 88... ?

Shouldn't it be 1, 1, 1, 10, 11, 100?


Hmm, so there's no pearly gates and singing angels when a paladin dies?

Are you trying to make me dig up my Planes of Law?

One of the layers is the Pearly Heavens, I think, and I guess they might have gates. There's some paths of enlightenment you're supposed to follow in Celestia, too - something about becoming one with the seven heavenly virtues and so on.

Iron_Mouse
2007-02-10, 07:17 AM
A Lawful Good group that policed Sigil and the Planes. Their motto was pretty much "You'll either be good, or you'll cry and be good." Forcing everyone else to be Lawful and Good. The group obviously contained a lot of Lawful Neutral members.

I loved 'em. Lawful Good makes some of the best oppressive, totalitarian authorities...

Anyway, their methods and attitudes eventually started to erode the plane they were on, causing one layer to shift into another plane, I think (one that "resonated" better with the Harmonium's actual methods).

I'd have to dig out my Planes of Law to figure out. (Incidentally, I also loved how Planescape made the Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic axis much more important and prominent than the Good-Neutral-Evil axis.)

IIRC, the Harmonium wasn't exactly LG, they were lawful. To join you had to be of lawful alignment. Just like the other factions, the Harmonium didn't really care if you were good or evil.

Their basic idea was probably good, since they wanted to bring peace to the whole multiverse. However, their methods were often a little questionable, since they thought they could realize that peace only if they brought everyone to the same view. After all, if they all agree with each other, they don't fight anymore.
Of course, only the way of the Harmonium was the right way, and those who didn't agreed to that had to be smashed it into their heads.

This lead to the moving of one layer of Arcadia (where the Harmonium was on) to Mechanus.

bosssmiley
2007-02-10, 08:53 AM
81, 41, 83, 88... ?

Shouldn't it be 1, 1, 1, 10, 11, 100?

Finnish literalism. :smallamused:

Read the numbers in the cadance of the USMC marching song from "Full Metal Jacket" (#I don't know what I've been told/Eskimo cats(?) are mighty cold/...(etc.)#). It *should* be read in context of the simplistic, dualistic manner in which base Modrons communicate and interact with the world. :smallwink:

Binary; perfect for marching tunes. :smallsmile:

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 11:48 AM
DISTANT SOUND OF MARCHING FEET

Duodrone Sergeant: "1010001"
Monodrone Squad: "101001"
Duodrone Sergeant: "1010011"
Monodrone Squad: "1010111"
(continued ad infinitum)

That is disturbingly catchy.

Neo
2007-02-10, 12:21 PM
yeah, quite disturbing :D

Although I think the modrons are being brought back in Dragon soon.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-10, 12:55 PM
I think the place where the gods live qualify as paradise in some settings.

mikeejimbo
2007-02-10, 01:14 PM
I thought everyone just went to hell...

JellyPooga
2007-02-10, 01:21 PM
I always felt a bit sorry for devout followers of Farlaghnanananan ( I can never remember how to spell his name), the god of travel and that. They don't go anywhere when they die, but end up basically haunting crossroads and bridges and stuff. Always thought that was a bit of a bum deal myself.

Fizban
2007-02-10, 03:07 PM
According to the DMG, when you die your soul goes to either the plane of your god, or the plane that most matches your alignment. You then float there until a god turns you into a petitioner, or you decompose and become part of the plane. Presumably the gods then promote petitioners into higher ranked outsiders over time, or promote more powerful souls into more powerful outsiders when they arrive. I've never really liked that explanation though.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 04:58 PM
Petitioners are turned into outsiders, yes. The mechanics for baatezu and tanar'ri (devils and demons) were detailed in AD&D's Planescape. In the Lower Planes... well, wouldn't you know it, I forget how it works. Either the petitioners were the larvae, or they become the larvae when they're absorbed by the plane. In any case, these larvae are traded by night hags and other fiends, eaten by many of them, used as currency and to fuel magic (they're actually listed as one of the vile spell components in BoVD), and if left lying around in one of the Lower Planes for long enough, they will turn into a local sort of fiend (baatezu in Baator, tanar'ri in Abyss, etc.). From then, it's a slow, strange process, advancing in ranks and becoming a greater kind of fiend. It can take centuries or millenia to move up just one rank - and most of them can regress, too.

axraelshelm
2007-02-10, 05:13 PM
Petitioners are turned into outsiders, yes. The mechanics for baatezu and tanar'ri (devils and demons) were detailed in AD&D's Planescape. In the Lower Planes... well, wouldn't you know it, I forget how it works. Either the petitioners were the larvae, or they become the larvae when they're absorbed by the plane. In any case, these larvae are traded by night hags and other fiends, eaten by many of them, used as currency and to fuel magic (they're actually listed as one of the vile spell components in BoVD), and if left lying around in one of the Lower Planes for long enough, they will turn into a local sort of fiend (baatezu in Baator, tanar'ri in Abyss, etc.). From then, it's a slow, strange process, advancing in ranks and becoming a greater kind of fiend. It can take centuries or millenia to move up just one rank - and most of them can regress, too.

no wonder pit fiends so tough they have years to grow and they hacked their way up the ladder

Thomas
2007-02-10, 05:27 PM
Millenia, actually. And - as I recall - they retain their core, sort of, although their names, genders, and personalities can change radically during their "life" (depending on the type of fiend). This means that an quasit you kill today might remember you and yours when it's a marilith a thousand years down the line; and it could hunt down your descendants out of spite. (Less a danger for humans, but a fairly real one for elves or other long-lived races.)

The books included lines of development that the fiends follow; not every tanar'ri will go through every form of tanar'ri during its "life."

CockroachTeaParty
2007-02-10, 05:35 PM
What's the probability that your entire eternal stay on Limbo happens to perfectly emulate a paradise? An accidental Heaven from chaos, and you wouldn't even realize it...

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 05:43 PM
What's the probability that your entire eternal stay on Limbo happens to perfectly emulate a paradise? An accidental Heaven from chaos, and you wouldn't even realize it...

The probability of happening to have the Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo randomly get into some sort of paradise is extremely low. The probability of it remaining paradisial is even lower. This probability decreases as your stay in Limbo increases, and approaches zero as time goes to infinity. In other words, it's mathematically impossible, unless you're using some weird alternate definition of "eternity."

Inyssius Tor
2007-02-10, 05:49 PM
Well, you're only figuring in random chance. What if Limbo spawned some sort of Limbo-manipulating sentience?

oriong
2007-02-10, 05:51 PM
It did, they're called Slaad.

CockroachTeaParty
2007-02-10, 05:57 PM
-At the surly gates of Limbo-

Uh... high. It looks like I'm gonna spend eternity here. So, what's the deal?

(some random slaad)
Welcome to Limbo! Here's your suit made of ham. WELLS FARGO! I once ate a house. Do you enjoy fists!? YES! Leggo of my eggo! I hope Miko hooks up with Belkar! FNORD!

Inyssius Tor
2007-02-10, 06:06 PM
I mean a lawful good Limbo-manipulating sentience.

"Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!"

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 06:16 PM
I mean a lawful good Limbo-manipulating sentience.

"Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!"

Isn't it somewhat more probable that Limbo will spawn a Chaotic Neutral Limbo-altering sentience? I mean, it's pretty hard for you to randomly come up with Order from Chaos, but degrading Order into Chaos is pretty simple, and spawing Chaos from even more Chaos is really easy. Still, if Limbo ever happened to spawn a Lawful Good sentience that made a portion of Limbo Lawful Good, that portion of Limbo would eventually break off and become part of Mount Celestia, no? Besides, I doubt a Lawful Good sentience would take kindly to a Chaotic Neutral petitioner.

Jothki
2007-02-10, 07:26 PM
Millenia, actually. And - as I recall - they retain their core, sort of, although their names, genders, and personalities can change radically during their "life" (depending on the type of fiend). This means that an quasit you kill today might remember you and yours when it's a marilith a thousand years down the line; and it could hunt down your descendants out of spite. (Less a danger for humans, but a fairly real one for elves or other long-lived races.)

The books included lines of development that the fiends follow; not every tanar'ri will go through every form of tanar'ri during its "life."

Either that, or you severely screw up the plans of a marilith and end up with a really, really pissed off quasit after you.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 07:46 PM
Either that, or you severely screw up the plans of a marilith and end up with a really, really pissed off quasit after you.

A hilarious but potentially possible reversal. Well played, sir.

Matthew
2007-02-10, 08:14 PM
I thought evil petitioners started off as Lemures?

Huh, just looked up Lemures in Wikipedia, wouldn't you know Larvae and Lemures are interchangable Latin terms... I wonder why they swapped?

the_tick_rules
2007-02-10, 08:28 PM
well the standard deal for low-level people is lemure. But that's what commoners get. The more powerful you are/were you may get started off as something higher rank. So high level people could start off as a cornurgan or a pit fiend even.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 09:44 PM
I thought evil petitioners started off as Lemures?

Huh, just looked up Lemures in Wikipedia, wouldn't you know Larvae and Lemures are interchangable Latin terms... I wonder why they swapped?

They are different things. Lemures are the first creature the larvae transform to in the Abyss.

Larvae aren't really petitioners yet; they aren't bound to any one plane. You leave them wriggling around for long enough on one Lower Plane, and they are "absorbed" into it and transformed into the lowest-ranking fiends (like lemures).

The origins of the terms in AD&D may be confused and intertwined, but they definitely have separate meanings by Planescape times.

You never start higher. The worst, most evil persons with the most potential are just the larvae who eat the other larvae and survive the longest. (Yeah, Evil commoners may not even make it to lemure.)

That's why the Lower Planes are Hell. Only the very worst Evil people will eventually become real fiends.

Matthew
2007-02-10, 09:47 PM
Interesting. I remember Lemures from (A)D&D 1.x, but they seemed to disappear in 2.x as part of the PC thing. I have always kept them around in my games, though. So, Larvae and then Lemures, interesting.

Thomas
2007-02-10, 09:57 PM
It's too cold to nip outside and go downstairs to get my Planescape fiend book, but maybe I'll dig it out tomorrow and post the "descent of fiends" (ascent of fiends?) in it, if this thread's still going.

Gralamin
2007-02-10, 10:25 PM
according to the fiendish codex two:

Damned souls that come to the nine hells arrive on blood-soaked rocks in protruding from the river styx. bearded devils row boats to these rocks and collect them. These Soul shells are brought to Aminzu who torture them and sort which arch-devil they belong to. The torture tears all traces of humanity from the soul shells physical form (resembling that of a bedraggled rubbery version of themselves). this process gives powers to the arch-devil they belong to, and then they are dropped into the Maggot Pit. The soulshell dies their and soon becomes an lemure.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-02-10, 10:38 PM
I guess paradise depends on your outlook. For me, the Abyss looks pretty nice...especially Shendilavri...prrow...:smalltongue:

Thomas
2007-02-10, 11:03 PM
Gralamin: That sounds about right. Now that you brought it up, the Planescape book says baatezu specifically torture their larvae into shape. I forget just what tanar'ri and yugoloths do. (And some others - the Carceri fiends? - just spawn spontaneously. I think the "slime-fiends" of Carceri are always X in number, with a new one born from the plane's essence every time one dies. Might've been another Lower Plane, though...)

Mewtarthio
2007-02-11, 12:34 AM
I don't think Yugoloths use petitioners as new Yogoloths. Yugoloths are born out of the plane itself.

Stormcrow
2007-02-11, 11:08 PM
Lurien is the Halfling Heaven...

Narmoth
2007-02-12, 08:19 AM
I use Mandos halls and Valinor as described by Tolkien as a sort of heaven for all creatures. I also use the elven mythology for all the gods and devils in my games. Demons are different beings of power that at one time or another pledged their servise to Morgoth. Lolth is a descendant of Ungoliant and so on.

Drascin
2007-02-12, 08:49 AM
Yeah, there is: Evergold.

The place where Sune, Sharess, and Hanali Celanil all hang out.

Sign me up, baby.

Also, failing that, I wouldn't mind ending up at Selūne's realm... dunno how it's called in english, but the most approximate translation from my PGtF would be The Moon Ocean. Eternal moonshine, peaceful, home to the best bards in existence (remember Wyvernspur)... and then remember that Selūnes servants are female in about an 90% :smallwink:. Eternal peace in a beautiful place plus cute girls? Hell yes :P.