Help! A new player wants to be a Monk. Help me optimize her!

[Dormammu]

In my ceaseless quest to teach new people how to play D&D I am starting one of my many "n00b campaigns." I asked my players what they wanted to be. "Don't think about the rules just what do you want to be flavor-wize?" I said. She came up with a cool character who is "good at hand to hand combat, kung-fu style" and is "Able to predict people's behavior."

Ok so we all know monks are sub-par combatants. I'm going to be building the character for her. What should I do? (I'm thinking of starting at level 3-4).

Things I'm considering.

1) Finding some variant class that works like a monk but is less MAD.

2) Just giving her some stat boosts to combat MAD

3) Just letting her play a vanilla Monk and not worrying about it.

4) Finding a decent Monk build within the rules.

I'm not going to tell her to change her character concept.

[wayfare]

Unarmed Swordsage or Cleric into that one Clericmonkish prc

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Unarmed swordsage with high sense motive and a slew of Diamond Mind and Setting Sun maneuvers sounds like what she wants.

[Red Fel]

Unarmed Swordsage or Cleric into that one Clericmonkish prc

Basically this. Specifically, I would go with the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation from Tome of Battle. That means take Swordsage, drop armor proficiency, grant Improved Unarmed Strike and unarmed damage as a Monk of her Swordsage level.

And just like that, you're done. You now have a character with lots of awesome kung-fu style moves, unarmed combat and wicked coolness. You have a Wis-focused class, meaning that being predictive is part of its artform (note that it gets a Monk's Wis-to-AC, which I've always attributed to the Monk/SS being able to predict an opponent's moves), while being slightly less MAD than Monk. I say slightly; a Swordsage still has various dependencies, but they are lessened by the presence of maneuvers. Moreover, the maneuvers give the Swordsage a versatility he could only dream of.

Consider advising her to take Adaptive Style, and perhaps Superior Unarmed Strike. (You may even give them to her as bonus feats if you're feeling generous. Up to you.) Unlike a Monk, a Swordsage has a very high optimization floor; it's easy to do well, and hard to do badly, making it a very newbie-friendly class. The USS is only slightly trickier, and admittedly her raw damage still won't necessarily compare with the rest of the party, but she should have tons of fun.

[Urpriest]

Another vote for Unarmed Swordsage. In general, Tome of Battle classes are better for new players, since they're closer to the gaming experience they're used to: you have specific moves, and you can use them, then get them back after a rest. Plus it allows a wider range of interesting options, since one of the biggest reasons new players leave is becoming bored with combat.

I've introduced someone to the game with an Unarmed Swordsage when he wanted to play a Monk, and he had a blast.

[Irk]

You could maybe try the Factotum/Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk, but since this is levels 3-4, and that build really comes online at level 10, unarmed swordsage is probably the best. It's thematically similar, can be more fun to play, and it's just better.

[Darkweave31]

First, this is a new player. Simple is the name of the game. So that said...

Psychic warrior maybe, fluffed as Ki rather than psionics? Claws of the beast becomes Ki strike (fist wreathed in fiery motes of pure ki), rename other powers as appropriate for the monk flavor. Play an Elan for the superhuman ki-adept aspect. A simple psychic warrior 20 variant of the king of smack is simple and effective in hand to hand combat, has plenty of variety with their powers, and is nice and easy to play.

The biggest thing to consider is that this is a new player, so overwhelming them with something complex and involved build-wise probably isn't a great idea. Keep it simple, keep it fun, and just maybe they'll keep playing. Even if it isn't the most optimized character, you can design certain encounters and role-play situations where they can shine.

[BeholdenCaulf]

Just play core, don't confuse new players with extra books

That said you don't want to put them off with underpowered characters which in my opinion monks are BUT you also don't want to discourage creative thought by suggesting another class

For a first time I would say let them play a vanilla monk and not worry too much, you could always buff the character with appropriate loot

[Vrock_Summoner]

Just play core, don't confuse new players with extra books

That said you don't want to put them off with underpowered characters which in my opinion monks are BUT you also don't want to discourage creative thought by suggesting another class

For a first time I would say let them play a vanilla monk and not worry too much, you could always buff the character with appropriate loot

I would understand this complaint with most other books/classes, but Tome of Battle is the exception. It's fairly simple, yes, but more importantly, an effective ToB character doesn't actually *need* anything not provided by ToB or Core, so it's only one more book.

[lytokk]

Call this another vote for unarmed swordsage. If you're worried about her not being able to understand the class, help her out. Make index cards for all of her manuevers known, that way she doesn't have to look as hard for them, and can keep her readied manuevers in a pile. Also it doesn't hurt to help her level and maybe before her first session, run her a session zero, with a few rounds of combat, a small interaction with a merchant, and maybe some other NPCs. Granted, you may already do some or all of this, but its helpful advice to put out there anyway.

[Xerlith]

Another one to Unarmed Swordsage team.
If the player is at least a bit smart, she'll get it easily. It's basically a spell-system that uses /encounter mechanic instead of a daily one. IF a beginner player can manage playing sorcerer/wizard, they can do well with an Initiator class as well.

[Loxagn]

I once played a SS that grabbed the Saint template and Intuitive Attack from BoED. Wis to attack rolls and AC (twice, even), focus on Diamond Mind. Was a ton of fun, and I got to dance circles around enemies that couldn't actually hit me.

[John Longarrow]

Stolen from the turling Goblin thread (just posted almost EXACLTY what you are looking for...)
L1 Sword Sage -Weapon Finesse
L2 Fighter - Imp Unarmed Strike
L3 Sword Sage - Two Weapon Fighting NOTE: Wis to AC
L4 Fighter -Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB-unarmed based off of character level)

For progress,
L5 - Sword Sage
L6 - Fighter - Shadow Hand
L7 - Sword Sage NOTE: Wis to Damage

This build only takes 4 levels of fighter (mostly for the three bonus feats) and gets all the sword sage goodness you'd like.
Toss in you can get upto 7 attacks with a BAB of 16 at 20th, and it makes for a very good unarmed combatant.

[Dormammu]

Thanks so much everybody!

I looked on some of the other threads as well. It looks like I contributed to Monkday.

I'll let you all know what I decide and how it goes.

[Zetapup]

The easiest option would be to go unarmed swordsage, like others have said. There are other options, but unarmed swordsage is the easiest to play while still being decently powerful.

Another option is totemist. This class revolves more around natural attacks, but it's close to a martial artist. It's not my first pick because the subsystem (incarnum) is fairly complex, especially for someone new to the game.

Tashalatora monk 2/something psionic 18 would work nicely. Tashalatora is a feat that advances monk unarmed damage and some other stuff (I don't remember what exactly) with levels in a psionic class you pick with another feat. Again, psionics is a new subsystem so a new player might be confused by it.

If your player really really wants to go monk (you might not have to optimize at all if the other players are similarly unoptimized- however, I'm going to assume you want a monk that can at least be decent in combat) the first step is to fix some of the MAD.

The simplest way to do that is to give them stat boosts/a higher point buy. It's a quick and dirty solution so the player might not like it, but eh. (Sidenote: Vow of Poverty is horrible and should not be considered for fixing stats).

The other way to fix MAD is to reduce dependency on certain stats. Weapon finesse and shadow blade (a feat from ToB) give you dex to attack and to damage with certain weapons (including your unarmed strike). That means you can dump str to 10 or so without losing much, aside from carrying capacity.

Intuitive attack is a feat that gives you wis to attack instead of str for certain weapons, but it doesn't help MAD much because it doesn't apply to damage.

Finally, you can be undead so you don't have a con score- your hit die changes to d12s (at least as far as I recall), so it's as though you had a con of 14. Necropolitan is a good choice for this. For extra fun, you can apply some of the undead creation boosters (see thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147848-%283-5%29-The-Corpsecrafted-Spellstitched-Necropolitan)): some of them aren't strict RAW, but being created in a desecrated area should work and you get some extra hp, which is nice.

If your player wants to be an effective combatant, the easiest way is to focus on unarmed damage- improved natural attack + size increases can give you some pretty ridiculous damage.

Let's see... the monk has some great alternate class features, but they're mostly in the first 6ish levels.

Invisible Fist, from exemplars of evil, is decent: periodic invisibility instead of evasion.

Decisive strike, from the player's handbook 2, is amazing for an AoO build- you switch out flurry of missesblows for the ability to make one attack as a full round action that deals double damage. All of your attacks made before your next turn also do double damage.

Martial Monk is from one of the dragon magazines, so it might not be allowed. It lets a monk take a fighter bonus feat instead of a monk bonus feat but by RAW the monk doesn't have to meet the prereqs for the feat. It's pretty cheesy, but eh.

Shadow Blend, from Champion of Ruin's web enhancement, is a pretty solid ability. Total concealment as long as you're not in direct sunlight.

Finally, some of the alternate monk bonus feats from the srd are decent- I personally like the passive way feats for improved trip.

That's most of the basic advice I have for optimizing a monk. If you want a few threads that go into more detail, I'll see what I can find (Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial would be quite handy if you really want to optimize the monk to insane levels).