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Peregrine
2007-02-09, 12:12 PM
Calling all combat characters!

How would YOU like to be able to cast true strike three times a day?

Sound good? Well how about some other spells too, like hold portal, feather fall, ventriloquism, flare and light?

How can YOU get all this magic? No room or money for more magic items? No Use Magic Device skill for scrolls?

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Yes, that's right, more!

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The ability to summon a familiar!

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Sorcerer Dip™ doesn't need any pacts with demons. With our patented painless process, you can have all this for no more trouble than a +1 Level Adjustment! That's crazy!

It even counts towards your character level for feat gain!

What's that? You're worried about spell failure, casting all those spells in your heavy armour? Don't worry! We guarantee that none of these spells will ever incur ASF!

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Side effects may include multiclassing experience penalties for some characters. This advertisement does not take into account your individual circumstances. You should consult the Product Help Brochure (PHB) before deciding whether Sorcerer Dip™ is right for you.



So, seriously, what do you think? Is a one-level dip in sorcerer a viable idea for a combat character?

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-09, 12:20 PM
I prefer to take a few levels in dragon devotee from the races of dragon all the benefits plus casting in armor plus lots of other stuff.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-09, 12:26 PM
Depends on the character. I mean, you get some good spells a few times a day and can use scrolls (of even up to 9th level!) because they're on your spell list, and a few other benefits.

I wouldn't recommend it if you're starting low, since you'll (relatively) lose a lot of hp, but in the long run, 4 less HP isn't a big deal.

Peregrine
2007-02-09, 12:35 PM
I wouldn't recommend it if you're starting low, since you'll (relatively) lose a lot of hp, but in the long run, 4 less HP isn't a big deal.

My basic aim was to compare it to any +1 LA races, who will generally lose out on things like HP even more than a sorcerer dip will. Also, I understand that LA tends to hurt more in the long run, whereas I think that a sorcerer dip will stay just as useful (especially if you don't worry about offensive spells, since you won't be advancing caster level or save DCs).

Tola
2007-02-09, 12:47 PM
*claps, just because of the 'advertisment'.*

Hmmm...You say 'none of these spells will cause ASF'. Might I ask why or how this is?

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-09, 12:52 PM
My basic aim was to compare it to any +1 LA races, who will generally lose out on things like HP even more than a sorcerer dip will. Also, I understand that LA tends to hurt more in the long run, whereas I think that a sorcerer dip will stay just as useful (especially if you don't worry about offensive spells, since you won't be advancing caster level or save DCs).

I didn't catch that you wanted to compare it to +1 LA race abilities. when comparing it it is definitely better. There are very few level adjustment races I consider the equal of even the lamest class and sorcerer would be decent enough.

Rigeld2
2007-02-09, 12:52 PM
No somatic component == no ASF.

Druid
2007-02-09, 12:53 PM
Better yet, screw the rest of the combat class levels and go straight full caster!

In all seriousness though this does sound alot better than some +1 LAs. Hobgoblin and tifling (?) come to mind.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-09, 12:56 PM
Better yet, screw the rest of the combat class levels and go straight full caster!

In all seriousness though this does sound alot better than some +1 LAs. Hobgoblin and tiefling (?) come to mind.

They aren't that powerful but I love tieflings flavor but I would gladly give up some of the lame stuff they have for a real level in something. That is why we started doing the LA buy out.

Jack Mann
2007-02-09, 01:06 PM
When I saw the advertisement, I thought for a moment that perhaps it was a product for removing unsightly parasites from your sorcerer.

Shazzbaa
2007-02-09, 01:08 PM
Oh, my. That was fantastic.

For me LA races tend not to be so much about "Man, I wish I had this cool ability" and more about "Man, I wish I could be a werewolf/demon-thing/tentacled-lovecraftian-horror."

So... yeah, I guess I, personally, wouldn't take Sorceror Dip over LA, because Sorceror Dip may give me nice abilities, but it won't make me a werewolf, a demon-thing, or a tentacular horror.

But that's just me.

Orzel
2007-02-09, 01:14 PM
I dip spec wizard droping Evoc and Conj. That way I can grab every level 1 spell I can buy. I always dip right aftert getting my 3rd attack.

Ranger11/wizard1 = Yays!

Fax Celestis
2007-02-09, 01:15 PM
Wizard DipTM wouldn't be bad either, actually, and would give Int/Skill synergy.

Peregrine
2007-02-09, 01:43 PM
I chose sorcerer because there are only so many 0- or 1st-level spells that are really useful to fighter types later on (no somatic components, useful personal effect or else no save or spell resistance), so you don't need a lot of spells known. (Really, true strike is the killer feature of this concept, all on its own.) What you do want is flexibility and the ability to use those preferred spells more often. The sorcerer's spontaneous casting and more spells per day fills this nicely.

Golthur
2007-02-09, 01:51 PM
When I saw the advertisement, I thought for a moment that perhaps it was a product for removing unsightly parasites from your sorcerer.

<clap, clap, clap>

Well played, sir, well played.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-09, 02:17 PM
Wizard DipTM would probably be better for a roguelike.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-09, 02:19 PM
Ooh! True Strike! Spend two rounds in order to hit once!

WOOOOOOOOO!

Arceliar
2007-02-09, 02:39 PM
I myself prefer Warlock Dip™ for two reasons.

1) Balefull Utterence
2) Eventually every (nonmagic) object is going to roll a 1 on a saving throw.

Also a dip for Darkvision 60ft with See Invisibility comes in handy if you're not into the whole yell-at-a-adamantine-portcullis-and-it-opens thing...

If you're feeling especially tricky, a 2 level dip works well too. It grants you the same attack bonus as a 1 level dip + another fighter level does, but also gives you another invocation + detect magic at will... While you're at it, a third level keeps adding base attack, gives you fort and ref save bonuses, and lets you have some (extremely) minor damage reduction...

Of course, the alignment restrictions can get annoying. Though it never addresses ex-Warlocks in CA.. so I would assume they keep their abilities but cannot further advance till the alignment gets fixed, sort of like bard.

MrNexx
2007-02-09, 04:20 PM
Ooh! True Strike! Spend two rounds in order to hit once!

WOOOOOOOOO!

Useful all the time? No; it's what you cast the instant before the surprise round. Occasionally useful, especially when coupled with things like "Ability to use scrolls, wands, and featherfall yourself"? Yeah.

I can see character concepts that would work with that. I realize it's not the mechanically optimal character that you advocate on these boards (even though you swear you don't play them yourself), but it's not so horridly sub-optimal that they're playing a gimpy commoner with the feat "Infected Pus-Boil Face."

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-09, 04:27 PM
I play optimized characters, just not cheesy characters. Cleric using Divine Power/Quickened Divine Favor, yes; DMM(Persistent), no.

It's not horribly suboptimal, it's just... meh. Sure, it's viable, in that losing a single level of melee class won't hurt you *that* much and you get something vaguely useful, but there isn't any reason to go out of your way to do it.

Kantolin
2007-02-09, 04:35 PM
Personally, Cleric dip sounds at least comparably tasty. Keep your armour, use healing wands, cast a few basic spells, get turn checks for the purpose of burning? And a good fort and will save?

Of course, then poor Mr. Fighter gets incentive to keep going Cleric, and then soon poor Mr. Fighter isn't at all a fighter... but eh.

Piccamo
2007-02-09, 04:37 PM
My melee warlock took a level dip in Battle Sorceror...but we're playing with fractional AB and Saves.

Arceliar
2007-02-09, 04:39 PM
Personally, Cleric dip sounds at least comparably tasty. Keep your armour, use healing wands, cast a few basic spells, get turn checks for the purpose of burning? And a good fort and will save?

Of course, then poor Mr. Fighter gets incentive to keep going Cleric, and then soon poor Mr. Fighter isn't at all a fighter... but eh.

You're right. He turns into a Better Paladin.

Indon
2007-02-09, 04:41 PM
Ooh! True Strike! Spend two rounds in order to hit once!

WOOOOOOOOO!

Don't think of the spell as giving you the ability to hit.

Think of the spell as allowing you to Power Attack for everything you have and _still_ hit.

With a bonus, in fact... because Sorceror Dip (TM) keeps your BAB below +20 before epic levels.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-09, 04:54 PM
Add in Sudden Quicken. Hell, the fighter's got feats to spare.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-09, 04:57 PM
Enough feats to waste them on Sudden Still, Sudden Silent, Quicken, and whatever else Sudden Quicken's prereqs are? I think not.

Arceliar
2007-02-09, 05:02 PM
Quicken Spell, Sudden Empower, Sudden Extend, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Silient, and Sudden Still are the prereqs. Fighters get 11 bonus feats (10 with a sorc dip) from class levels--easily more than there are useful feats for the class.

That being said, there's probably something better to spend your seven non-fighter feats on. Or at least, there should be.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-09, 05:02 PM
That's right. Not everyone uses the alternate prereqs I use for the suddens.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-09, 05:04 PM
Fighters get 11 bonus feats (10 with a sorc dip) from class levels--easily more than there are useful feats for the class.

I disagree.

Diggorian
2007-02-09, 05:06 PM
I did the LA buy out for my hobgoblin reluctantly but I see it's value now that I'm caught up to the average party level. I might've considered Sorceror Dip (TM) but wanted to explore the racial character.

I proposed a Prejudicial payoff to my DM: taking a -2 penalty to all social skills and NPCs are shifted one attitude category to hostile for every +1 of LA. Wouldnt work for everything, like Aasimars, but he didnt allow it anyway.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-09, 05:11 PM
If you use a class with little armor, that could work. Rangers and barbarians came to mink, though barbarians can't cast spells while raging. A fighter would be alright, but he usually needs to use heavy armor. If you'll use only self-buffying spells, you don't need to worry with MAD, that's a plus. A monk/sorcerer could work (Forgotten Realms has a NPC like that) And if you get 7 levels of sorcerer (4 spells/day, learn 2 third level spells) and the rest monk, you can be a DBZ character! :D

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-09, 05:20 PM
That's right. Not everyone uses the alternate prereqs I use for the suddens.

What are those alternate prereqs?

Bryn
2007-02-09, 05:26 PM
Note that the fighter can't select those feats as his bonus feats, unless I'm sorely mistaken. It might take a while to get there.

daggaz
2007-02-09, 05:29 PM
Heh heh, 20 pts for a COOL ASS ad campaign.

And bears, everybody knows you are the uber-optimizer player on these boards (you remind me of a certain Maddog from the A&A's forum, only with more tact) but damn man, chill out. Even if its not tip top, cant you once in your life just smile and say, "Heh, nice idea man, cool presentation."? You don't even have to whisper smugly, 'but I could do better..'

Most of us assume you could, and some of us would love to try you out in an arena all the same. But seriously, put some ranks in diplomacy.

And remember, DnD is all about versatility, both in character optimization (are you SO sure that any one build is the best in ALL situations?) as well as in Roll Playing possibilities.

daggaz
2007-02-09, 05:35 PM
PS hahaha, sorry I forgot to add, I just LOVE how you maximize the so called 'benefits' of a 1d4 hp roll! "An extra 1d4 hps *and* 1 extra HD!" Bahahaha! Superb.

clericwithnogod
2007-02-09, 05:35 PM
I like Duskblade Dip myself. No loss of BAB, 1d8 HD, get the +2 WILL and another +2 FORT. Not as many spells, but you do get Truestrike and the Spell-Like Abilities. Plus Sense Motive and Knowledge (All) as classs skills.

Truestrike is nice when combined with Power Attack, particularly against high AC/DR/HP stuff that takes a long time to whittle down otherwise. It's even better with a build with Barbarian and Pious Templar in it (or anything that lets you find a way to keep stacking damage).

Cast Truestrike on surprise round

rd1 Cast Rhino'sRush (Swift Action) and make a Smiting, Power-Attacking Charge, maxing your Power Attack.

rd2 Cast Strength of Stone (Swift Action), Rage, then make a Full Attack using Power Attack at -5 or more for +3/-1 damage from Combat Brute feat.

rd3 Attack something other than whatever it was that's now a puddle of meat on the floor, still pumped up by your rage.

Needs some setup, but not a lot, and it makes full use of those sneaky guys in the party who walk point and make it happen more often. When it gets broken up because something closed on you in the first round and you can't charge, you can still go straight to your round 2 option adding your smite there.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-09, 05:39 PM
Heh heh, 20 pts for a COOL ASS ad campaign.

And bears, everybody knows you are the uber-optimizer player on these boards (you remind me of a certain Maddog from the A&A's forum, only with more tact) but damn man, chill out. Even if its not tip top, cant you once in your life just smile and say, "Heh, nice idea man, cool presentation."? You don't even have to whisper smugly, 'but I could do better..'

Most of us assume you could, and some of us would love to try you out in an arena all the same. But seriously, put some ranks in diplomacy.

And remember, DnD is all about versatility, both in character optimization (are you SO sure that any one build is the best in ALL situations?) as well as in Roll Playing possibilities.

...it's not like I killed a puppy, or anything. I was just sarcastic about True Strike a little. Yeesh.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-09, 05:54 PM
Wanting to do more with your SorcererDip, but worried about Arcane Spell Failure?

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Thistledown padded Faycraft Mithral Chain Shirt.

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How does this work? Well, we all know Mithral reduces ASF by 10%. Faycraft drops it another 5%, and the Thistledown padding drops it an additional 5%, although it does add an additional -1 dex check penalty to some skills.

Now go enchant it, and never look back at Mage Armor ever again!

Zincorium
2007-02-09, 06:16 PM
Now go enchant it, and never look back at Mage Armor ever again!

Mage armor would be sick if it was an abjuration spell, because then the Abjurant champion could add all their cool abilities to it. +9 armor, no max dex, ASF, or armor penalties? For a single 1st level spell per (quickened) a use? And doesn't cost you a single gold piece? I'd take that over a chain shirt any day.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 06:33 PM
Oddly enough, that's actually a very strong reason why you shouldn't make Mage Armor an abjuration spell.

tarbrush
2007-02-09, 06:45 PM
Personally, Cleric dip sounds at least comparably tasty. Keep your armour, use healing wands, cast a few basic spells, get turn checks for the purpose of burning? And a good fort and will save?

Of course, then poor Mr. Fighter gets incentive to keep going Cleric, and then soon poor Mr. Fighter isn't at all a fighter... but eh.

Non aligned cleric dip is one of the all time awesome dips. For anyone. 1 level gets you heavy armour proficiency, turning (and all the funness of divine feats), decent HP, a couple of CLW/day and TWO domains.

Luck and/or Destiny for that ever wonderful reroll, which will save your butt once a day, Charm for +4 Cha for 1 min/day, travel for a round of free action, and bunch of domains give a wide range of free feats.

It's just so awesome!

Roderick_BR
2007-02-09, 10:05 PM
Ah, if you are interested in a good fighter/wizard build, check Spellsword from Sword & Fist (gotta check if it's in one of the Completes). It slows your spell progression, but lets you cast in armor.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-10, 12:46 AM
Ah, if you are interested in a good fighter/wizard build, check Spellsword from Sword & Fist (gotta check if it's in one of the Completes). It slows your spell progression, but lets you cast in armor.

Ahh, but we're not exactly discussing gish builds. Spellsword requires at least a 3rd level spell, we're talking about a single level dip for all the first level spells which are so very very useful.

Besides, as i pointed out, there are many ways of reducing ASF to 0% without needing to resort to Spellsword. EK is actually the better 'gish' prestige class, loosing only a single caster level. With Fig2/Wiz8/EK10, you get 9th level spells and a BAB of +16.

Seatbelt
2007-02-10, 02:11 AM
I disagree.


No kidding. I never have enough feats. "ok.. these are the feats I need for my build.. but I really want improved init.. can I fit a level of fighter anywhere..?" :P

MrNexx
2007-02-10, 03:46 PM
I like Duskblade Dip myself. No loss of BAB, 1d8 HD, get the +2 WILL and another +2 FORT. Not as many spells, but you do get Truestrike and the Spell-Like Abilities. Plus Sense Motive and Knowledge (All) as classs skills.

The downside of the duskblade dip is the the lack of secondary benefits. Sure, you get some of the nice stuff, but can you whip out a wand of Lesser Globe of Invulerability?

clericwithnogod
2007-02-10, 04:37 PM
The downside of the duskblade dip is the the lack of secondary benefits. Sure, you get some of the nice stuff, but can you whip out a wand of Lesser Globe of Invulerability?

Yeah, you lose some of that, but it depends on your playstyle as to how much that bothers you.

I tend to look at holsters of wands as cheesy, though not everyone shares that view and it's not a right or wrong thing. I like my build to be planned around things that I can do rather than have (and try to get magic items to enhance existing abilities such as weapons and armor or do nifty utility stuff like the Travel Cloak or Murlynd's Spoon). Thus I dip into a lot of classes and prestige classes (which some people think is cheesy, but in this case, they're just wrong :smallbiggrin: ).

But, from a practical standpoint, at the point at which I'm getting a wand that casts a 4th level spell (21,000 GP) that makes 3rd level spells not affect me, the things I need to worry about are higher level spells and other stuff. From an economics standpoint, it's far more cost effective to have the full sorceror or wizard cast it rather than having that much of my wealth tied up in it. Not that it's not useful (much like Truestrike has it's uses and disadvantages) but it's not something I'd use unless we happened upon one - and even then, I'd trade or sell it if it had more than a few charges and was counting against my wealth by level.

And, even with a two-handed weapon allowing you to draw and use a wand without sheathing or dropping your weapon you're looking at a move action to draw it and put it back (or just put it back if you have Quick Draw or something) unless you want to drop something fragile like that in combat. You can have a bunch of wands for different situations to use as pre-buffs, but they do cost money and you get to the holster of wands thing again.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-10, 11:28 PM
Could you yell at someone's belt to make their pants drop? ;P

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-10, 11:57 PM
Could you yell at someone's belt to make their pants drop? ;P

Why bother yelling when Mage Hand is only a cantrip away and can do the same thing?

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-11, 01:29 AM
It's more intimidating to say "That was your belt. Next will be your earrings." than "Ooh, look. The ghosts just took your belt!" :P

Fax Celestis
2007-02-11, 01:53 AM
It's more intimidating to say "That was your belt. Next will be your earrings." than "Ooh, look. The ghosts just took your belt!" :P

Heh. I heard that exact same thing last night at the bar, in an entirely different context.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-11, 02:07 AM
Ahh, a thousand and one uses for Mage Hand...

Lifting a bar wench's skirt
Goosing a bar wench
Copping a feel on the bar wench
Pulling the loose string on the bar wench's blouse to make it come undone
Smacking a bar wench's rear
... and blaming all this on the drunk sitting next to where she was when it happened

Oh, and then there's...

Dumping a flask of water on the torch held by the mad cultist about to light the sacrificial bonfire with victim attached

Dropping the torch in the scone above the troll's head on him

Opening a door from far enough away as to be out of reach of the lethal trap that is sure to be attached to it

Yes, all this and MORE is YOURS... ABSOLUTELY FREE with your purchase of the SorcererDip! Order yours TODAY!!

Zincorium
2007-02-11, 02:16 AM
Dropping the torch in the scone above the troll's head on him


Mmmm...Scones...

Oh, wait, you meant sconce.

Ikkitosen
2007-02-11, 05:56 AM
Cleric dip is much better than sorc dip IMO. Get the Magic domain so you can use divine AND arcane scrolls/wands. Get turning in case you have charisma and use divine feats. Light armour? Celerity domain. Otherwise Luck maybe? You get better saves too, and can cast in armour.

But what are we saying? Of COURSE you can make a melee character more powerful by adding spellcasting, we all knew that.

Great advert though :)