Which feat for melee?

[Kurald Galain]

Suppose I'm a level 5 melee combatant with a to-hit bonus of +9 (+3 BAB, +5 strength, +2 magic weapon). Which of the following feats would be the best pick?


Arcane Strike for +2 damage whenever I have a swift action to spare, which is often (and yes, I qualify for the prereq)
Power Attack for -1 to hit, +2 damage (and next level it becomes -2/+4)
Weapon Focus for +1 to hit
Or perhaps none of the above are worth a feat slot

[BWR]

Power Attack is still the feat to choose in just about any melee damage build. Remember, if you use a two-handed weapon it's -1/+3.

[Seerow]

I'd go with Arcane Strike. It seems like you're running a full CL gish of some sort (CL5 at level 5), and given the power attack return you listed I'm guessing Magus (needs one hand free). I'll take 2 free damage over 2 (or 4) damage with a penalty the majority of the time, and PF lacks most of the ways 3.5 had to make Power Attacking really worthwhile.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Having a +2 weapon at level 5 and that PA ratio suggests Magus.... I'd take none of the three and go for something else like Extra Arcana.

What class you are really does matter, though. Not only are you getting the weaker PA ratio, but if you're a Magus, you have spell strike depending on your hitting (big source of bonus damage) and spell combat (source of attack penalty on medium BAB) to deal with already, making PA an especially terrible choice. Pretty much any class with a large source of bonus damage is poorly served by PA, such as sneak attackers.

[grarrrg]

Suppose I'm a level 5 melee combatant with a to-hit bonus of +9 (+3 BAB, +5 strength, +2 magic weapon). Which of the following feats would be the best pick?


Arcane Strike for +2 damage whenever I have a swift action to spare, which is often (and yes, I qualify for the prereq)
Power Attack for -1 to hit, +2 damage (and next level it becomes -2/+4)


Given that you are most likely a Magus (see also: everyone else who posted), I'd say Arcane Strike is almost strictly better than Power Attack at this point. You can't afford the To-Hit drop, and the damage bonus is solid.

[Shinken]

I'm guessing he is a Bard instead of a Magus. Don't know why, I just do.
Could be a Synthesist as well.

[Sayt]

Given that you are most likely a Magus (see also: everyone else who posted), I'd say Arcane Strike is almost strictly better than Power Attack at this point. You can't afford the To-Hit drop, and the damage bonus is solid.

I'm not actually sure if I agree with this? Mostly on account of the Magus' two accuracy boosters, Arcane Accuracy and later accurate strike are both swift actions to activate, meaning you can't arcane strike at the same time, whereas Power attack is a non-action to activate and the penalty scales slowly for magi.

On the other hand if it's actually a bard or multiclass fighter/wizard or something, this is a moot point. Or a cleric getting arcane strike with SLA shenanigans.

[Kurald Galain]

Yes, it's a Magus, well spotted :smallsmile:

However, given that accuracy is so important, I'm curious why nobody is in favor of Weapon Focus so far.

(note that I could only use Arcane Accuracy about two times per day, because arcane pool size is pretty small and I need one point per combat for its standard enchant ability; I've found that any arcana that requires pool points is not nearly as good as it sounds because of this limit)

[Firest Kathon]

+3 BAB, +5 strength, +2 magic weapon.
That would be +10 to hit...

[Seppo87]

Knowledge Devotion is solid if you have a decent INT

[Shinken]

Knowledge Devotion is solid if you have a decent INT

That's a good option (probably the best option) if he can use 3.5 sources.

[Kurald Galain]

That's a good option (probably the best option) if he can use 3.5 sources.

I'm afraid not.

[grarrrg]

However, given that accuracy is so important, I'm curious why nobody is in favor of Weapon Focus so far.

Because it's a pathetic little +1 bonus that never scales or improves, and it's only real 'use' is as a Feat Tax to qualify for the handful of good Feats that require it.

Arcane Strike? Scales.
Power Attack? Scales.
Weapon Focus? lolnope

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, Weapon Focus is pathetic. But yet people are recommending Arcane Strike. Even though he has some levels now, it's only equal to Weapon Focus at this point (using PA's ratio), won't be slightly better till level 10, and takes a swift to use -- I don't care if you have no swifts at the moment...you *will*, if not by class then via magic items.

So I recommended none of the above. They all are pretty sucky options for him. He should probably stick to Extra Arcana, Intensify Spell, maybe Improved Familiar (if he's not Bladebound archetype, but I'm guessing he is) for now. The one melee feat all Magi should take is Lunge, which won't be available till level 9 due to BAB.

[Callin]

Arcane Strike is great if you dont have anything to use your swift actions on. I always forgot to use it on my Magus so I traded it out for something a bit more passive/situational.

[Sayt]

Yes, it's a Magus, well spotted :smallsmile:

However, given that accuracy is so important, I'm curious why nobody is in favor of Weapon Focus so far.

(Note that I could only use Arcane Accuracy about two times per day, because arcane pool size is pretty small and I need one point per combat for its standard enchant ability; I've found that any arcana that requires pool points is not nearly as good as it sounds because of this limit)

Weapon Focus is really just a 5% accuracy increase, and the received wisdom is that that that bonus is generally deemed either unnecessary or insufficient.

Depending on how much combat you go through in a day, and what your int score actually is (With a +5 Str, I'd not be surprised if you had a +3 or +4 int?), I think you'd be better off with power attack and arcane strike, achieving greater accuracy for similar damage, and more damage for more accuracy when you achieve BAB +4 (Unless I mucked up the numbers, I've been awake... a while). On the other hand, this costs you an arcane point per round, rather than per minute.

If you really do have swifts free, I'd take arcane strike as well (it has the benefit of scaling through your career), or extra arcane pool to more readily utilize arcane strike.

[Spore]

However, given that accuracy is so important, I'm curious why nobody is in favor of Weapon Focus so far.

Because the first hit (+ Spell) is going to hit after a certain amount of levels. The other attacks are a nice add-in but should not be optimized towards. And honestly a simple +1 to hit doesn't get you far enough for a feat.

Magi are frail bursting melee classes. Get yourself something that pronounces that and by 7-9 get something that covers the "squishiness" part.

[stack]

Where arcane strike shines is synthesist summoners using Kali or max NA builds. Not sure it's worthwhile many other places.

[Callin]

My 3.P Arcane Swordsage 3/Magus 2/ JPM 1 is the main melee damage dealer of my group. I have the highest AC and HPs.... haha. Only other Melee we have is a Psion who grows large and claws. Add on the Witch and Bow Cleric and thats the group.

[Raimun]

Arcane Strike is pretty good. Sure, you can't use it on your first turn ('Pool-time!) but after that, it increases your damage and doesn't lower you total Attack Bonus, which you can't compromise that much. If you want accuracy, take Arcane Accuracy when you get Arcana. You'll be able to hit when it counts, if you have a good Intelligence.

Spellstrike delivers usually all the damage you need but Magus should still invest to static weapon damage modifiers. Especially if you do long adventuring days, with multiple encounters. At some point, you might be out of Shocking Graps... and even a critical Shocking Grap can never have enough damage modifiers. :smallcool:

Pro tip: after damage modifiers, focus on AC and other defensive abilities. You are going to need them at the front lines.

[stack]

Mirror image goes a long way to keeping you alive. Beats mere AC by a wide margin unless enemies get smart and close their eyes.

[Kurald Galain]

Yes, Weapon Focus is pathetic. But yet people are recommending Arcane Strike. Even though he has some levels now, it's only equal to Weapon Focus at this point (using PA's ratio), won't be slightly better till level 10, and takes a swift to use -- I don't care if you have no swifts at the moment...you *will*, if not by class then via magic items.
Good point that a character will acquire more abilities with swift actions at later level. That makes Arcane Strike much less attractive.


Weapon Focus is really just a 5% accuracy increase, and the received wisdom is that that that bonus is generally deemed either unnecessary or insufficient.
Ok, but if a feat for +1 to hit is insufficient, then Power Attack strikes me as a pretty bad idea on any partial-BAB class.



Pro tip: after damage modifiers, focus on AC and other defensive abilities. You are going to need them at the front lines.
Sounds good. Do you have any suggestions other than the obvious? I figure that a wand of Shield and the spell Mirror Image (plus magic armor, amulet of natural armor, and ring of deflection) go a long way in protecting me. I'm not sure what to do about static weapon damage, other than getting a high-plus magic weapon and a belt of strength.

[Callin]

If your AC is too high then Mirror Image is not worth it. If they miss by 5 or less they automatically dismiss one figment. So near misses take away from possible misses when they do hit. Me and my group spent a long discussion about that with my guy. Decided that Displacement was a better option. So when you get 3rds switch to that. For now try to keep a happy balance so you are not wasting the images. OR Try to do that for your career and keep on trucking.

[Kurald Galain]

If your AC is too high then Mirror Image is not worth it. If they miss by 5 or less they automatically dismiss one figment.

Ok, that makes sense. That said, I don't think I'm too high yet, I'm still below a fighter in plate mail. And while I would like to get a ring of deflection and amulet of natural armor at some point, I can't exactly afford them now anyway.

[Shinken]

I think Weapon Focus is not as bad a feat as people seem to think, but the idea is that there are lots of accuracy bonuses in PF and not so many damage bonuses - Power Attack converts one into the other.
To me, the main function of passive feats like Weapon Focus, Dodge and Toughness is to act as filler when you just need to build something fast and can't take hours choosing feats.

[Raimun]

Mirror image goes a long way to keeping you alive. Beats mere AC by a wide margin unless enemies get smart and close their eyes.

You know what's even better? Mirror Image+a lot of "mere AC". Wizards can't or won't try to pull it off but I can assure you it works. AC blocks most hits and when one does get through? Mirror Image.

The thing about Mirror Image is that it's a good defense but one that dwindles rapidly. Especially if that's your only reliable line of defense... and it won't protect you unless you get a chance to cast it.

My Magus reached a very high AC on account of being a tiefling Kensai w/Dex build. That means I got two high ability scores to AC (Dex and Int). I also took a few feats to boost AC, like Dodge, Armor of the Pit and Combat Expertise. Add to that several AC-trinkets and you are set.

Might sound odd to focus so much on defense but I still had room for offensive feats and being a kensai at high levels meant that pretty much every Crit Threat was confirmed for that sweet 20D6+whatever the weapon damage. Magus is so offense heavy class it can afford to boost defense.

[stack]

I didn't mean to suggest tanking AC, just not to over invest in it. I have a STR-based magus that can usually tank for the party long enough to get through the fight just by popping mirror image (levels 5-7 currently, I know its not optimal/possible at all levels). If I have to choose between casting shield and mirror image, I don't think too hard about it, but rather have both up if possible.