Oriental Adventures and Tome of Battle.

[Ilinoris]

Greetings.

I've recently been talking with some of my players about starting a new campaign up, set in an Asian-esque themed setting.
Today I stumbled on and looked at Tome of Battle, and became quite interested.
I was wondering if anyone has any expertise in mixing the Swordsage and Samurai class?
Perhaps anyone even made this work with the Shugenja too?
Any kind of input is much appreciated :-)

[John Longarrow]

Sword Sage = Ninja for most things.
Unarmed Sword Sage = Monk for most things.
Warblade = Samurai.
Crusader = Other assorted tough warrior types.

They fit in really easily and give more of a "Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon" feel than real world warriors.

[Callin]

I played in a Play by Post Age of Wusu game using the ToB and ToB Homebrew classes and Disciplines. It was a ton of fun and we had a bunch of varied characters. So I strongly approve of this game in your head.

As far as multiclassing with Samurai... most people will say NO! Ewwwww haha. I suggest just refluffing the Crusader or Warblade as a Samurai. Basically using the Concept as your moniker and not your Class.

Why with Shugenja? Once again Crusader into a refluffed Ruby Knight Vindicator could possibly work. Same goes for the Wu Jen as well honestly and the Jade Phoenix Mage.

I dont know much that would work with the Shaman. I actually like the class as is.

Swordsage makes for a great Ninja.

[Trasilor]

Each of the classes presented in the ToB can easily fit into the Oriental Adventures setting.

Personally, I think Warblades who focus on Diamond mind make better Samuri than Swordsages. Swordsages make great ninjas and the unarmed variant swordsage is the definitive monk. Crusaders are almost like the Sohei with thier Devoted Spirit Maneuvers. Although both could exist side by side (Sohie being more magical, Crusader more martial).

Embracing ToB will raise the bar of your martial classes. Be prepared for this. :smallamused:

Shugenja are full casters tied to a particular element - ToB would not be good fit.

EDIT: dang swordsage'd

[PsyBomb]

Not much mixes well with the Samurai, though that is more the fault of the Samurai sucking worse than your average vaccuum cleaner. ToB itself is extremely splashable, though, and can be easily reflavored to Wuxia-style anything.

Shugenja can be combined to go into one of the existing prestige classes in the book, just can't remember if it is considered Arcane or Divine in nature (been a while), so i can't remember which PrC.

[Kennisiou]

Honestly, warblade, swordsage, and crusader can all fit various samurai types.

The warblade is a nice ronin/arrogant samurai archetype. They seek personal glory rather than honour and are cunning battlefield strategists that occasionally fight dirty. Alternately, an clever but loyal warblade can make a good heavy-armor-but-still-mobile type. It fits the samurai as mercenaries and samurai as soldiers archetype particularly well.

Swordsage is the lightly armored mobility and mysticism samurai in addition to archetypally making good ninja. Avoid shadow hand on the samurai (I know, I know, in spite of the fact that it's one of the strongest swordsage schools) and focus on tiger claw, desert wind, stone dragon and setting sun. It fits the samurai as a source of wisdom archetype very well.

Crusader is the heavy armored samurai who is devoted single-mindedly to his lord, whether that means devotion to evil or good, law or chaos all depends on who their lord is. The code of bushido fits best with crusader, and a samurai that wants to play that code-obsessed warrior will find crusader to be the best class to accomplish that.

Edit: also, the complete divine and complete arcane changes to Shugenja and Wu Jen are great and should be used here. They're great classes. Allowing shugenja/shaman to refluff into Ruby Knight Vindicator is a good idea, and Wu Jen + Jade Phoenix Mage is actually something of an infamous combo and is probably one of the strongest things to do with Wu Jen as a class.

If you do want Samurai as the class to be an important thing... I'd look into combining the Complete Warrior and the Oriental Adventure samurai somewhat, as well as maybe giving them a few free maneuvers. Alternately, the players could just use the ToB classes to fit various samurai archetypes like I outlined above.

[Larkas]

OA Samurai might be a good dip. IIRC, ancestral daisho is tied to character level.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Just add Iaijutsu focus to all classes skill list and you are good to go.

[T.G. Oskar]

If you're going with a generic Oriental Adventures flavor, the Warblade easily replaces the Samurai, the Swordsage replaces or co-exists with the Monk (and may provide an alternative access to Ninja Spy or be a replacement for the Ninja itself), and the Crusader...well, that's harder, but it could exist as a foreign class a la Druid and Paladin (which are absent from OA because they're Western concepts; the Crusader feels like a western concept as well).

If you're going with Rokugan fluff (and you could easily adapt this to a generic OA setting), the Warblade easily replaces the Samurai, BUT they get to add the clan-based feats to their bonus feat list. You can provide access to certain disciplines based on clan: Phoenix, for example, might get Desert Wind, while Scorpion samurai definitely would master Shadow Hand. You could probably do like the Shugenja and have each clan have four schools from where they learn martial maneuvers. The Swordsage, as with the Generic OA Setting, could easily replace the Monk or coexist with it: make sure they get access to Devoted Spirit, particularly if they're inclined towards replacing the Monk. Finally, the Crusader wouldn't exist on Rokugan, much like it wouldn't exist on a generic OA setting; you could, though, make a Crab PrC that grants Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike as class features, and probably some progression of class features; alternatively, Crab and Unicorn clans could have a refluffed Crusader in their ranks, but without Devoted Spirit (they learned the tactics from barbaric groups).

The reason why this happens is that the OA Samurai in Rokugan is very clan-specific, and as you can see with the Shugenja, the multitude of schools fit the idea of each clan having its own flavor. It also blurs the choice of disciplines from being class specific to being setting-specific. Most disciplines already have some equivalents (Diamond Mind is a dead ringer for Iaijutsu, whereas Setting Sun is jujutsu/aikijutsu and Shadow Hand draws from the conception of the Ninja as a supernatural assassin), so having each Warblade-chassis Samurai be exactly the same undermines the flavor of the class (particularly as Scorpion HAS Samurai, but they're more Roguish than anything else, and Shadow Hand fits them to the bill). The Swordsage has always been IMO the representation of Chinese wuxia movie heroes, and while they could easily be Monks in their own right, it ruins their potential to make them ALL unarmed Swordsages. They could be part of a Swordsage ACF, or the Monk could be a Swordsage substitution level that replaces some class features for those that work on the Monk. That doesn't mean the Monk can't exist on its own; the competition will drown its potential down and make it seem redundant. However, in Rokugan, the Monk is less of a class and more of a position (the one social standing where everyone there is equal, regardless of birth). Rokugan (and indeed, most generic OA settings) don't rely much on slavish devotion to a deity, so the fluff of the Crusader is lost; that said, its class features could easily be resumed into a 10-level PrC without any loss whatsoever.

As for the PrCs: Bloodclaw Master could be a Crab/Unicorn or Shadowlands PrC; Bloodstorm Blade could be a non clan-based PrC representing a school of its own; Jade Phoenix Mage could be allowed to Shugenja (one of 13 ancient Shugenja and Sorcerers who bind an ancient Oni); Master of Nine has already its fluff defined; Shadow Sun Ninja could be part of a sect of ninja who stand at the edge of the Shadowland power and devotion to the Empire, and the taint rules could easily apply to them. Eternal Blade could be stripped from its Elven flavor and represent a unique set of samurai that follow ancient warrior spirits. Of the remaining, Deepstone Sentinel *could* be a Crab PrC specific to the Kaiu Wall, whereas the Knight Vindicator is like the Crusader (too entrapped in Western flavor to work, and requires class features that no class can provide as there's no Cleric or Paladin class, and the only class that can provide uses of Turn Undead is the Shaman, which isn't a Rokugani class) and thus unfit.

Also: have some Oni and other monsters (Tengu!!) gain access to maneuvers. If you have a generic OA setting, the Naityan Rakshasa fit perfectly. Of the other monsters, the "Valkyrie" could easily be a refluffed youkai of storms, while the others (whose name now eludes me) could be a kind of Shadowlands demon. Shadow Hand could have some ties to the Shadowlands, and maybe Maho-Bukai can allow some limited advancement of maneuvers with free access to Shadow Hand and Devoted Spirit (restricted to Chaos and Evil only).

If you intend to keep Devoted Spirit, note that the setting has alignments around, but they aren't as strong. Good and Lawful maneuvers could be considered "Honorable" maneuvers, while Chaotic and Evil maneuvers could be considered "Dishonorable" (and Evil maneuvers outright Tainted). Most clans could retain Devoted Spirit maneuvers, although of those maybe Dragon, Phoenix, Scorpion and Unicorn are the best feats.

[squiggit]

Honestly, warblade, swordsage, and crusader can all fit various samurai types.

The warblade is a nice ronin/arrogant samurai archetype. They seek personal glory rather than honour and are cunning battlefield strategists that occasionally fight dirty. Alternately, an clever but loyal warblade can make a good heavy-armor-but-still-mobile type. It fits the samurai as mercenaries and samurai as soldiers archetype particularly well.

Swordsage is the lightly armored mobility and mysticism samurai in addition to archetypally making good ninja. Avoid shadow hand on the samurai (I know, I know, in spite of the fact that it's one of the strongest swordsage schools) and focus on tiger claw, desert wind, stone dragon and setting sun. It fits the samurai as a source of wisdom archetype very well.

Crusader is the heavy armored samurai who is devoted single-mindedly to his lord, whether that means devotion to evil or good, law or chaos all depends on who their lord is. The code of bushido fits best with crusader, and a samurai that wants to play that code-obsessed warrior will find crusader to be the best class to accomplish that.

Edit: also, the complete divine and complete arcane changes to Shugenja and Wu Jen are great and should be used here. They're great classes. Allowing shugenja/shaman to refluff into Ruby Knight Vindicator is a good idea, and Wu Jen + Jade Phoenix Mage is actually something of an infamous combo and is probably one of the strongest things to do with Wu Jen as a class.

If you do want Samurai as the class to be an important thing... I'd look into combining the Complete Warrior and the Oriental Adventure samurai somewhat, as well as maybe giving them a few free maneuvers. Alternately, the players could just use the ToB classes to fit various samurai archetypes like I outlined above.

This, although I think you could easily flip warblade and crusader jut as easily in those descriptions (after all, the wandering, charming ronin is a pretty common thing too).

[Red Fel]

I think that a key takeaway is this: You can be a samurai without being a Samurai. Or, put differently: Class name does not determine profession, nor does profession determine class.

The OA Samurai (not to be confused with the CW Samurai) is not that great a class in my mind. Yes, it gets full BAB, but so do a lot of melees. Yes, it gets the ancestral weapons, which are rather nice, and the equivalent of taking the Ancestral Relic feat twice (which you ordinarily can't do). Yes, it has a good Fort and Will save, which is uncommon, but not unheard of. But its only other class feature consists of a fixed list of bonus feats. In other words, you get two nice weapons which you probably won't be able to use at the same time, plus a few feats.

Warblade and Crusader are better classes, and both are more suited to the concept of a samurai. Warblade is the samurai showoff, the epic hero who lunges about the battlefield moving through his enemies in a spray of gore. Crusader is the samurai vanguard, loyal vassal of his daimyo who serves with his life, commanding the loyalty and respect of the troops.

Ironically, Swordsage isn't much of a samurai - he's more like the mysterious swordmaster hermit who lives on the mountain and trains only the finest protagonists. I'd also remind you that the Swordsage is only proficient with Light Armor, and a samurai marching into war should be wearing sturdier stuff than that.

That said, if you really want to mix the two, a two-level dip in OA Samurai gets you your Ancestral Daisho and your first bonus feat, and is a fine jump-off point for a class with actual class features. I'd suggest the Dragon clan, and take EWP (Katana) so that you can one-hand your Katana; ordinarily, a Bastard Sword is treated as martial in two hands, and exotic in one, so grab the feat and be on your way. I'd suggest switching Warblade, just because Warblades are that awesome, and it wouldn't change much fluff about your character. Medium armor, heavy offense, go to town.

[PsyBomb]

All of this conversation has one big, shining example in OotS itself. The Azure Guard are flavored as Samurai, but they are all Paladins. Basically just that, but with initiators.

[Shinken]

Just add Iaijutsu focus to all classes skill list and you are good to go.

I really think iaijutsu should have been a class ability or a feat. Maybe Iaijutsu Focus as a feat with Quick Draw as a requirement. You shouldn't be able to spam it either - it's simply not thematically apropriate. Pathfinder's Sword Saint is one step in the right direction, though it is too restrictive.
Iaijutsu Focus should be 'your first attack deals a lot of damage' and not 'spam with razors' IMHO.

That's more or less what they are doing for PoW, I think.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That's true, though how would you rule the damage if it was a feat, level+relevant modifier (I never understood why IF is cha based, it seems dex would be a much better fit thematically).

[Shinken]

That's true, though how would you rule the damage if it was a feat, level+relevant modifier (I never understood why IF is cha based, it seems dex would be a much better fit thematically).

The OA idea is that iaijutsu is channeling ki, but even then Cha is not the best stat (Wisdom would be better).
I would make it deal the same damage as a sneak attack from a Rogue at the same level (1d6 at 1st, 2d6 at 3rd, etc). I'd probably allow use of iaijutsu + sneak attack, because Hitokiri Battousai (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYWA0N64lFk).

[squiggit]

I never understood why IF is cha based
Probably the same reason you need to sweet talk magic wands.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The OA idea is that iaijutsu is channeling ki, but even then Cha is not the best stat (Wisdom would be better).
I would make it deal the same damage as a sneak attack from a Rogue at the same level (1d6 at 1st, 2d6 at 3rd, etc). I'd probably allow use of iaijutsu + sneak attack, because Hitokiri Battousai (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYWA0N64lFk).

I always thought it was just pure martial skill, hence why it is an actual skill, but if it channels Ki then yeah, Cha or Wis definitely fits a little better.




Probably the same reason you need to sweet talk magic wands.
Please lets avoid having this discussion again.

[137beth]

Have you considered using Factotums as an alternative (or in addition) to swordsages? Maybe one order of ninjas are swordsages, and another are factotums? Heck, Factotum even gets IF by default:smalltongue:

[Shinken]

Have you considered using Factotums as an alternative (or in addition) to swordsages? Maybe one order of ninjas are swordsages, and another are factotums? Heck, Factotum even gets IF by default:smalltongue:

Which is completely non-ninja :smallsigh:

[Talya]

Not much mixes well with the Samurai, though that is more the fault of the Samurai sucking worse than your average vaccuum cleaner.


As has already been stated, this is wrong.

OA samurai is one of the best dip-melee classes in the game. Ancestral Daisho is character level based, not class level, so one level of Samurai gives you half-priced weapon modification for the life your character. In addition, OA Samurai is full BAB, high will/fort saves, 4 skills/level, and d10 hit die. It also gives you all the ranged martial proficiencies the TOB classes lack, and has Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill.

It's conceivably worth two levels, as the second level continues with that boost to will/fort, and gives you a bonus feat. If you are going to multiclass with TOB, you always go even levels in non-TOB base classes.

Note also how well Sapphire Nightmare Blade stacks with Iaijutsu Focus and Quick Draw.

[danzibr]

The OA idea is that iaijutsu is channeling ki, but even then Cha is not the best stat (Wisdom would be better).
I would make it deal the same damage as a sneak attack from a Rogue at the same level (1d6 at 1st, 2d6 at 3rd, etc). I'd probably allow use of iaijutsu + sneak attack, because Hitokiri Battousai (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYWA0N64lFk).
Had no idea they made a live action movie. Thanks for that.

Now I know who I want my next character to be modeled after :P

Anyway. As has been said, Warblade makes a great samurai or ronin, Swordsage a great ninja or monk. Crusader would also be a good samurai, I'd think.

If it were me DMing, and the party is down with it (I usually don't restrict options, but...), I'd say casters should go OA caster, and melee ToB, but leave other classes open for dipping.

[Ilinoris]

Thanks so much for all the answers, I've definetly gotten something to work with! :-)

[Fouredged Sword]

If you want to go with a TOB flair, I would do iaijutsu as a stance. It's all about preparing yourself for the next strike, not about catching people off guard.

Iaijutsu Focus
Prereq - Initiator level 1, quickdraw feat, Improved Initiative, must know at least 1 diamond mind maneuver.
Iaijutsu Focus is a unique stance that may only be learned by taking this feat. It counts as a level 1 diamond mind stance. This stance does not act in all ways like other stances. It requires a standard action to assume this stance, and it requires you to sheathe your weapon during this action. If at any time you draw your weapon, this stance ends, but you may automatically enter any stance you know as a free action at the end of your round. While in this stance, you gain a +2 to initiative. When you draw your sword using quickdraw, you may follow the drawing of your weapon with a standard attack or any strike you have readied (taking the normal action for the strike or attack). You add your highest initiator level to the damage of the attack or strike.

[Ilinoris]

One of my players recently showed interest in the Sohei class from Oriental Adventures.
I was thinking that if I were to even use that class, there would be made some changes, as currently it is a spellcaster, which I aimed to limit by including Blade Magic from TOB. Does anyone have any ideas on how to convert spells to maneuvers?

[Shinken]

One of my players recently showed interest in the Sohei class from Oriental Adventures.
I was thinking that if I were to even use that class, there would be made some changes, as currently it is a spellcaster, which I aimed to limit by including Blade Magic from TOB. Does anyone have any ideas on how to convert spells to maneuvers?

My suggestion is: don't do it.
Replace the spells for the Swordsage or Crusader maneuver progression if you want to, but spells per encounters is a horrible idea that goes horribly wrong.

[John Longarrow]

For Sohei,

I'd probably just use Crusader and swap some of the class features around. In generaly maneuvers <> spells, especially when you are talking non-full casters. Compare what a Crusader can do to what role a Sohei should fulfill, then tweak as you feel you need to.

[Red Fel]

One of my players recently showed interest in the Sohei class from Oriental Adventures.
I was thinking that if I were to even use that class, there would be made some changes, as currently it is a spellcaster, which I aimed to limit by including Blade Magic from TOB. Does anyone have any ideas on how to convert spells to maneuvers?

Here's the thing about Sohei. Several things, in fact.
It's a schizophrenic class - it tries to be Paladin, Barbarian, and Monk at once. Further, its class features contradict - Ki Frenzy, for example, precludes spellcasting. It's not a particularly powerful class. You'll notice the elements I pointed to - Barbarian, Paladin, Monk. That's a mix of Tier 4-5 classes, at best Tier 3. Admittedly, Sohei has a pretty melee-ready chassis, with decent BAB, good saves, DR, and other useful bits. But it's a bunch of little tastes, rather than a few major focal points. It's an orphan class. Nothing else improves its features. Ki Frenzy is a fairly unique ability, for example, that isn't advanced by other classes and doesn't qualify you the way Rage can for other PrCs.
So, you're starting with a less-than-stellar class, and trying to change its spell progression into maneuvers. That requires work. A lot of work, in fact, which would better be examined in the Homebrew subforum, but I'd lean towards Crusader or Warblade maneuver progression, with a narrow discipline list like Crusader has. Choose disciplines carefully. Diamond Mind is a bad investment for this class, given its Ki Frenzy ability; in fact, Ki Frenzy explicitly prevents you from using any class skills, which is a problem for many disciplines, as they provide their focal skills as class skills.

[Vaz]

Oddly enough the Samurai Clans from Rokugan introduced in OA match near enough the ToB layout, with the exception of the Unicorn, as there's no "true" mounted ToB class. (Or homebrew one, for that matter).

Crab; defensive, wall guardians. Crusader, Stone Dragon and Devoted Spirit
Crane; typical Iaijutsu, Warblade and Diamond Mind in particular
Dragon; tattooed monks and TWF; Swordsage and Tiger Claw
Lion; Leadership and generals, allround "dogooders" (in there eyes); Warblade and White Raven
Mantis; semi-mercenaries, rogues, newcomers to the clans, seen as outsiders, sailors and mariners, Swordsage. No school in particular, but acrobatics is a Tiger Claw thing
Phoenix; these are the mages. Arcane Sword Sage (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.0;msg=229982) fits in possibly, but that's fairly broken. Failing that, Desert Wind and Shugenja
Scorpion; Ninja's. There's a lot more to it than that, but in simplifying it, this is what you've got. If it's not obvious; Swordsage with Shadow Hand focus.
Unicorn; Cavalry. There are some here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?165675-Reposting-the-Martial-Compendium-Help-me-dig&p=9254716#post9254716) (search for "Ride") which may interest you however.

[Red Fel]

Phoenix; these are the mages.

Phoenix, huh? Mages. Man, I dunno, it just doesn't sound Asian enough to me. Can't we add something to it for flavor? Desert Sun Phoenix Mage, maybe? Heavenly Ways Phoenix Mage? Sublime Path? No?

How about Jade? Jade is nice and Asian-ish. Can we do Jade? Jade Order of Mages of the Phoenix Clan? That's super classy.

... Nah, still doesn't flow quite right...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Phoenix, huh? Mages. Man, I dunno, it just doesn't sound Asian enough to me. Can't we add something to it for flavor? Desert Sun Phoenix Mage, maybe? Heavenly Ways Phoenix Mage? Sublime Path? No?

How about Jade? Jade is nice and Asian-ish. Can we do Jade? Jade Order of Mages of the Phoenix Clan? That's super classy.

... Nah, still doesn't flow quite right...

http://www.avians.net/paragon/fen-hua.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenghuang)

You were saying? :smalltongue:

[Kennisiou]

Here's the thing about Sohei. Several things, in fact.
It's a schizophrenic class - it tries to be Paladin, Barbarian, and Monk at once. Further, its class features contradict - Ki Frenzy, for example, precludes spellcasting. It's not a particularly powerful class. You'll notice the elements I pointed to - Barbarian, Paladin, Monk. That's a mix of Tier 4-5 classes, at best Tier 3. Admittedly, Sohei has a pretty melee-ready chassis, with decent BAB, good saves, DR, and other useful bits. But it's a bunch of little tastes, rather than a few major focal points. It's an orphan class. Nothing else improves its features. Ki Frenzy is a fairly unique ability, for example, that isn't advanced by other classes and doesn't qualify you the way Rage can for other PrCs.
So, you're starting with a less-than-stellar class, and trying to change its spell progression into maneuvers. That requires work. A lot of work, in fact, which would better be examined in the Homebrew subforum, but I'd lean towards Crusader or Warblade maneuver progression, with a narrow discipline list like Crusader has. Choose disciplines carefully. Diamond Mind is a bad investment for this class, given its Ki Frenzy ability; in fact, Ki Frenzy explicitly prevents you from using any class skills, which is a problem for many disciplines, as they provide their focal skills as class skills.

Honestly, I'm a Sohei fan myself but I mostly agree with this.

If you check out the OA errata in dragon magazine, you'll find they left Sohei a little stronger and a little more focused. Kind of. Their Ki Frenzy still works like flurry of blows (which, notably, means they can make the extra attack while in frenzy AND ALSO make an extra attack from haste or any other source that doesn't stack with haste), but now improves with levels. It gets +4 to both stats and +20 to speed at level 11, becomes tireless at 17, and gains +6 to both stats and no penalties at level 20 with +30 speed. This gives you a bit more incentive to level in Sohei, but honestly still not much. They also improved the damage reduction progression and replaced Remain Conscious with Diehard (you can find more details in Dragon 318). Basically, the thing to pay attention to about Sohei is they let you flurry of blows with a weapon, which stacks with other sources of multiple attacks. That's honestly the biggest draw to the class for me and why I love them so much: in any build focused on getting lots of weapon attacks that can spare 1-4 levels I can nab some sohei levels and be better off. They really, really do not work on their own but are excellent on that kind of build (especially with some kind of house ruling that gives Ki Frenzy an "extra rage" like feat).

Honestly, if your player wants to play a Sohei and you're looking to change the class I'd say go for it! Just make a few changes. They're nice as multiple attackers but honestly could use more attacks in their frenzy. They also have some schizophrenia going on with their abilities, especially with gaining movespeed and an additional attack in frenzy since they have no built-in way to move and full attack, so that needs to be fixed as well. If you wanted to give them a way to improve and also to remove spells, I'd suggest the following:

Remove Spell List: Just get rid of it.

Skill Changes: Jump is now a class skill. Tumble is now a class skill. Balance is now a class skill.

Ki Frenzy: the Ki Frenzy now progresses like a monk's flury of blows as the Sohei levels. This means at 5th level the penalty is reduced to -1, at 9th the penalty is removed, and at 11th you get another extra attack. Bonus stats granted by Ki Frenzy remain the same.

Martial Study: At 6th level, 12th level, and 18th level, the Sohei gains Martial Study as a bonus feat. If you really want them to feel like this is an improvement, don't count this towards their total of only 3 martial studies or maybe allow Sohei levels to count as 3/4 initiator levels instead of 1/2.

Swift Movement: At 4th level, once per day, for one minute, the Sohei can move their movement speed as a swift action. The Sohei gains an additional use of this ability every four levels. Alternately, give the Sohei pounce at 4th level and never look back, but I feel swift movement is a bit more fitting. Another option is at 4th level to just allow the Sohei to move as a swift action during their Ki Frenzy, since basically that's what the /day swift movement is likely to amount to.

Some sort of bonus damage: Yeah, something more than frenzy's bonus to strength gives. Bolded for a reason because I cannot stress this enough: extra attacks want bonus damage. Consider having frenzy take away strength and then giving it +wisdom to damage to make them remain attribute dependant on wisdom? Alternately, just flat out give them +wis to damage with weapon attacks made with the weapon they took as their first level weapon focus bonus feat, like, probably around 6th-8th level or so. Alternately alternately, give them shadow blade as a bonus feat at around that same level whether or not they meet the prerequisites. You could also give them skirmish progression like the scout, which would fit in somewhat with how Sohei fights (especially with these changes), and shouldn't make them overshadow the martial initiator classes. And I do mean skirmish in addition to wis or dex to damage. All of these things become less important if Sohei's given pounce, since at that point they can become an ubercharger pretty effectively. If they have pounce then I'd definitely suggest not giving them skirmish progression. If they have swift movement skirmish progression's pretty solid.

Freedom of Movement (ex): At 12th level, a Sohei in a Ki Frenzy is considered to always be under the Freedom of Movement spell. At 18th level, they are considered to be under Freedom of Movement at all times.

These features make Sohei into something self-sufficient that's focused on getting multiple attacks, staying mobile, and dealing more damage with those attacks than normal. The changes are just off the top of my head, some of the levels may need adjusting, and you might want to do a few other things to improve the class ("extra ki frenzy" feat, as well as some case-by-case transparency between rage feats allowing a few to work on ki frenzy as well), but for the most part it makes the class stronger, cures their schizophrenia by focusing on their ki frenzy, mobility, and multiple attacks. If you want to make further changes, consider removing defensive strike at 7th in favor of just a general fighter bonus feat (or scout bonus feat if you give them skirmish progression), since that feat just doesn't do a thing for Sohei.

[Vaz]

Shugenja. That's what they're there for. Admittedly, they suck (compared to Wizards and Sorcerers and Spell to Power Erudites etc), but in a "low powered magic" setting like Rokugan (for example, even the Oriental Dragons don't have spell casting) there isn't much to threaten them.

I never said it was a perfect fit, but the theme runs perfectly. After all, each major clan has several major families within, and each PC is all about being exceptional.

[Larkas]

Oddly enough the Samurai Clans from Rokugan introduced in OA match near enough the ToB layout, with the exception of the Unicorn, as there's no "true" mounted ToB class. (Or homebrew one, for that matter).

Eh, homebrew disciplines can fill the void well without a specialized class. In addition to the Eternal Mount you posted, there's also the Silver Pegasus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134088-The-Age-of-the-Warriors-a-ToB-expansion-book-idea/page13&p=7780232#post7780232) and the Twin Spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?40991-Twin-Spirit-Discipline) disciplines. Grab one, get a Wild Cohort (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and go to town war.


Phoenix, huh? Mages. Man, I dunno, it just doesn't sound Asian enough to me. Can't we add something to it for flavor? Desert Sun Phoenix Mage, maybe? Heavenly Ways Phoenix Mage? Sublime Path? No?

How about Jade? Jade is nice and Asian-ish. Can we do Jade? Jade Order of Mages of the Phoenix Clan? That's super classy.

... Nah, still doesn't flow quite right...

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Shinken]

Oddly enough the Samurai Clans from Rokugan introduced in OA match near enough the ToB layout, with the exception of the Unicorn, as there's no "true" mounted ToB class. (Or homebrew one, for that matter).

Crab; defensive, wall guardians. Crusader, Stone Dragon and Devoted Spirit
Crane; typical Iaijutsu, Warblade and Diamond Mind in particular
Dragon; tattooed monks and TWF; Swordsage and Tiger Claw
Lion; Leadership and generals, allround "dogooders" (in there eyes); Warblade and White Raven
Mantis; semi-mercenaries, rogues, newcomers to the clans, seen as outsiders, sailors and mariners, Swordsage. No school in particular, but acrobatics is a Tiger Claw thing
Phoenix; these are the mages. Arcane Sword Sage (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.0;msg=229982) fits in possibly, but that's fairly broken. Failing that, Desert Wind and Shugenja
Scorpion; Ninja's. There's a lot more to it than that, but in simplifying it, this is what you've got. If it's not obvious; Swordsage with Shadow Hand focus.
Unicorn; Cavalry. There are some here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?165675-Reposting-the-Martial-Compendium-Help-me-dig&p=9254716#post9254716) (search for "Ride") which may interest you however.

Dragon Samurai and dragon Monks are very very different from each other. While a Swordsage kinda-sorta-maybe works as a Dragon Monk, it doesn't work for a Dragon Samurai, specially since they are all about defense and Tiger Claw really isn't.
Also, you're oversimplifying everything, not only the Scorpions. All clans have samurai, mage and cortisan schools. You mostly described the Kakita school of the Crane, but they also have the Daidoji, which are very different.
But you have two options, really: oversimplifying or homebrewing from L5R to make ToB disciplines for each school. It would take a long time, but it would be awesome.

[Ilinoris]

It would take a long time, but it would be awesome.
This is what I am aiming for :smallwink:

[The-Mage-King]

But you have two options, really: oversimplifying or homebrewing from L5R to make ToB disciplines for each school. It would take a long time, but it would be awesome.

There's bound to be homebrew that can be adapted already. I mean, how many dozens of disciplines has the playground churned out already (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255468)? Or just mix and match parts of disciplines to create styles...


Anyway, Ilinoris, take a look at Warriors and Wuxia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?205213-ToB-Setting-Warriors-and-Wuxia-PEACH). See what you can steal.



EDIT: Added link to the first part.

[Vaz]

Dragon Samurai and dragon Monks are very very different from each other. While a Swordsage kinda-sorta-maybe works as a Dragon Monk, it doesn't work for a Dragon Samurai, specially since they are all about defense and Tiger Claw really isn't.
Also, you're oversimplifying everything, not only the Scorpions. All clans have samurai, mage and cortisan schools. You mostly described the Kakita school of the Crane, but they also have the Daidoji, which are very different.
But you have two options, really: oversimplifying or homebrewing from L5R to make ToB disciplines for each school. It would take a long time, but it would be awesome.

I know I'm oversimplifying it. However, what about "The Dragons' Flame" Samurai, which are archers. Or the Nemuranai Seekers? Those are still Samurai.

[Metahuman1]

Dragon Samurai and dragon Monks are very very different from each other. While a Swordsage kinda-sorta-maybe works as a Dragon Monk, it doesn't work for a Dragon Samurai, specially since they are all about defense and Tiger Claw really isn't.


Dessert Wind, TWF, Double Strike, Stone Power, Storm Lord, Karmatic Strike and/or Robilars Gambit, Combat Reflexes, MAYBE Evasive Reflexes, and your golden for Dragon. Swordsage does indeed do this well.

[Manly Man]

For those of use who make mention of Iaijutsu Focus, here's an option (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Shayllan_Pathfinder/index.php?showtopic=56) that, while it is made for Pathfinder, it would work just fine in 3.5, methinks.

[Red Fel]

Dessert Wind

I know this was an otherwise harmless typo, but now I'm visualizing a Ranma-esque school of martial arts involving pastries and other sweets. From the "Pineapple Upside-Down Kick" to the "After-Dinner Mince" to the legendary "Death by Chocolate" technique, somehow this concept strikes fear into my sugar-soaked core.

[Larkas]

I know this was an otherwise harmless typo, but now I'm visualizing a Ranma-esque school of martial arts involving pastries and other sweets. From the "Pineapple Upside-Down Kick" to the "After-Dinner Mince" to the legendary "Death by Chocolate" technique, somehow this concept strikes fear into my sugar-soaked core.

... Please, someone NEEDS to homebrew this discipline! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: