PDA

View Full Version : Ratioing Feats



MrNexx
2007-02-09, 01:30 PM
I'm of the opinion that many of the flat-bonus feats are, if not completely, then practically worthless.

Skill focus? Not worth it. Weapon Focus? Not worth it. Weapon Specialization? Not worth it.

Thus, I propose giving people an escalating bonus with these feats. Ideally, this bonus would be tied to the current character level - character level at which it was taken (to encourage early adoption), but that would prove unweildy, so it would be a flat bonus of X +Y per Z levels.

Weapon Focus? +1 with an additional +1 at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20
Skill Focus? +2 with +1 at every even level
Weapon Specialization? +2 per 4 levels.
Dodge? +1 to Dodge AC per 4 levels
un so weiter

I was mostly planning on using these ONLY on feats that were just a simple +X to a given activity, not feats like Improved Trip, which is several improved abilities with trips, and a +4 on trip attacks.

Any comments or suggestions?

Matthew
2007-02-09, 01:34 PM
Heh, welcome to the world of Auto Scaling versus Feat buying. It's a dead end, or so I have found. I ended up back in (A)D&D providing a number of Feats at the outset that scaled by level...

Fax Celestis
2007-02-09, 01:43 PM
I've actually been brainstorming something akin to this, but I don't have anything concrete yet.

Orzel
2007-02-09, 01:48 PM
I always ask the DM to makes Skill Focus feat +3 and +3 per 4 levels. and the +2 to 2 skill feats +2 and +2 per 4 levels. Only 1 allowsd it. Worked fine. My rogue was practically invisible.

+1-5 AB, +1-5 AC and +2-10 damage don't sound too bad but isnt' much. Exponenential growth and a longer scale is probably better.

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 01:51 PM
I'm of the opinion that many of the flat-bonus feats are, if not completely, then practically worthless.

Skill focus? Not worth it. Weapon Focus? Not worth it. Weapon Specialization? Not worth it.

Not worth it compared to what? If you have to reference non-core stuff to say it's not worthy compared to non-core, then I agree whole-heartedly. Lots of non-core stuff kicks the ass of core stuff, *especially* in the feats department.

Feats are like stat points. If all your stats have even values, then adding one point doesn't do much. If you have an odd stat, then you get get another bonus with that point. Some feats are just there to make getting other feats more of a sacrifice. Other feats give you a meaningful bonus right away.

Once you go non-core though, you can choose feats that deliver each and every time, or at least deliver more than the core feats. That's part of the arms race of non-core material.

Matthew
2007-02-09, 01:57 PM
You might want to take a look at the system Golthur is proposing in the Home Brew Forum.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-09, 02:03 PM
I have a question about this say some one takes weapon focus at first level and then dodge at 6th level it seems weird that dodge wold automatically be as good as a feat someone has had since first level and used over and over. is there a way to scale it so it is based on how long you have had the feat? That way people don't just stack up on these feats at higher levels.

Golthur
2007-02-09, 02:08 PM
You might want to take a look at the system Golthur is proposing in the Home Brew Forum.

Thanks for the mention, I was about to pipe in on this. :smile:

My setup is more "manual scaling" than auto-scaling, but it's the same gist. Dodge is too weak a feat to be worth a feat, likewise Weapon Focus and all of its other inbred, drooling siblings. A +1 is great at 1st level, not so great at 20th.

Another interesting variant was your "feats you can dump skill points into to boost" proposal.

Matthew
2007-02-09, 02:13 PM
Indeed. One method is to have a Feat scale by level only from the time it is purchased, but this makes things complicated, as you have to keep track (and also a little annoying). The core problem is simply that some Feats scale, some don't and some are more powerful than others.

jono
2007-02-09, 02:13 PM
I'm of the opinion that many of the flat-bonus feats are, if not completely, then practically worthless.

Skill focus? Not worth it. Weapon Focus? Not worth it. Weapon Specialization? Not worth it.

Thus, I propose giving people an escalating bonus with these feats. Ideally, this bonus would be tied to the current character level - character level at which it was taken (to encourage early adoption), but that would prove unweildy, so it would be a flat bonus of X +Y per Z levels.

Weapon Focus? +1 with an additional +1 at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20
Skill Focus? +2 with +1 at every even level
Weapon Specialization? +2 per 4 levels.
Dodge? +1 to Dodge AC per 4 levels
un so weiter

I was mostly planning on using these ONLY on feats that were just a simple +X to a given activity, not feats like Improved Trip, which is several improved abilities with trips, and a +4 on trip attacks.

Any comments or suggestions?

My last DM used a pretty good modded version of skill focus:

Taking it for a cross-class skill made it a class skill from then on. Taking it for a class skill imparted a 1 point for 1.5 ranks ratio for all subsequent ranks taken. pretty good really!

Telonius
2007-02-09, 02:37 PM
Pestilence has a good point. It seems to me that there would then be a division of feats available: those that scale with level (which are always taken at low levels, in order to get maximum impact); and those that grant an ability (which are taken at higher levels, since they don't scale). This might get particularly interesting if you started out building a 10th- or 15th-level character. You'd be skill-heavy in the early feats, ability-heavy on the later feats. You'd have to make a pretty hard judgment; do you really need power attack this level, or can it wait for another three levels so you can bump your Weapon Focus now? This might not be a bad thing, but it's a consideration.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 02:41 PM
I'm not so sure that having it scale quickly is a great idea; Personally, I would set it up so that something like, say, Weapon Focus gives +1, and an additional +1 per ten levels. Greater Focus doubles this. Likewise, Weapon Specialization would give +1 damage, +1 for every five levels, and Greater would double that.

Similar to these, Skill Focus would give +3, with another +1 every five levels. The "+2 to two skills" feats would give +2 to each of their skills, and +1 additional to both every 10 levels.

That more or less keeps things even, continually scaling, but not overpoweredly so. Plus it sets a standard for other benefits that should scale.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-09, 02:49 PM
Another thought I had is should weapon focus give the same scaling benefit to anyone who takes it? for example a wizard and fighter both take weapon focus at 1st level it seems to me the fighter should have greater "focus" by 20th than the wizard. maybe it should be scaled based on the BAB not on level.

Matthew
2007-02-09, 02:52 PM
It's fairly complex because the system is currently a hybrid of scaling and non scaling Feats that vary considerably in power relative to one another.

I ended up building Feat Trees that become available at certain Base Attack Bonuses, as in the case of Two Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Defence. Following that model, you buy the next Feat upgrade at Levels 6, 11 and 16. Many Class Features operate in a similar way, such as Sneak Attack, Rage and Trap Sense.

Orzel
2007-02-09, 03:07 PM
Another method is to create trees with increasing growth and level requiremnts.

Dodge +1 AC
Improved Dodge +2
Greater Dodge +4
??? Dodge +8

Weapon Specialization +2
Improved Weapon Specialization +4
Greater Weapon Specialization + 8
??? Weapon Specialization +16

This way players can pick number feas and abilty feat at any level.

Matthew
2007-02-09, 03:08 PM
Perfect or Perfected is the last adjective you are looking for.

I have pretty much done this with a few Feats already:

Skilful Defence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34241) (Combat Expertise)
Dodge (Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34242)
Parry(Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34244)
Block (Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34243)
Two Weapon Fighting (Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31337)
Two Weapon Defence (Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31338)
Weapon Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31267) (Weapon Focus and Specialisation)
Two Weapon Fighting (Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31337)
Two Weapon Defence (Alternate) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31338)

Orzel
2007-02-09, 03:27 PM
I was saving Perfect for epic. I as giong for Advanced or Excellent.

Matthew
2007-02-09, 03:32 PM
Fair enough. Perfect Two Weapon Fighting is crazy, though. It should be BAB +16, rather than epic.

Arceliar
2007-02-09, 03:34 PM
The problem with scaling feats is that d20 runs off a linear progression system. Your ranks in move silently increase linearly, but if your skill focus in it does so too then suddently the only way anyone is going to have a chance at spotting you is to also have skill focus. If you feel like graphing your skill mod versus the enemies counter-skill mod at a given level, their slopes need to be equal or the game breaks.

For some things, such as greater weapon specialization, this does make a lot more sense as damage isn't otherwise increasing naturally (besides ability boosts).

Orzel
2007-02-09, 03:40 PM
The problem with scaling feats is that d20 runs off a linear progression system. Your ranks in move silently increase linearly, but if your skill focus in it does so too then suddently the only way anyone is going to have a chance at spotting you is to also have skill focus.

For some things, such as greater weapon specialization, this does make a lot more sense as damage isn't otherwise increasing naturally (besides ability boosts).

That's why a feat tree is better that auto scaling.

and Stealth is brokes
H&MS > ALL 'cept L&S

Matthew, I agree with PTWF. I always argue that house rule with TWF.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 03:50 PM
Arc, you do have a good point. I could see any sneaky character dropping two or three feats into Sneaky and Skill Focus x2, if they were set up in that way. Consider my mind changed - feat trees > scaling feats

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-09, 03:56 PM
I have a question about this say some one takes weapon focus at first level and then dodge at 6th level it seems weird that dodge wold automatically be as good as a feat someone has had since first level and used over and over.
From a Heroic Fantasy perspective, I find it quite Genre-appropriate. Once a protagonist has proven him or herself, totally mastering a new skil is never more than a short "training montage" away. These montages rarely span more elapsed time than a month, and are usually closer to a week in duration. For board topicality—look how quickly Elan mastered the first level of Dashing Swordsman. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)

From a Realism/Verisimiltude perspective, it makes some sense, too. Most feats don't carry particularly revolutionary concepts. The concept behind Dodge is, "Keep an eye on your opponent so that when he attacks you can get the hell out of the way." All characters do this to some extent, but only characters with Dodge can do it well enough to gain extra bonuses against specific enemies. So we can assume that most feats, especially the ones that grant simple numeric bonuses, mostly represent a focused application of skills a character already possesses, drawing upon relevant experience.

Now, apply this to characters of different levels. A lower level character has had less relevant experience to use in developing the focus granted by the feat. But a higher-level character has had more. He or she has "Gotten the hell out of the way" of five times the number of axe blows and rays of enfeeblement than the lower level character. Therefore, the higher level character has more experience to channel through the feats focus, granting a greater starting bonus.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-09, 04:05 PM
*snip*

OK your explanation makes sense for a feat like dodge or skill focus that any character would be using all the time.

I still think weapon focus/ specialization should be based off of BAB because the "wizard" can go an entire campaign without even drawing a weapon and for some reason he just gets that much better with it each time he hits a specific level. This scaling based on BAB would also help alleviate some of the discrepancy between warrior types and magic users at higher levels. Another question that occurred to me is how does greater weapon focus figure in? Does it double the bonus of the previous feat or just add a specific amount? The same question applies to specialization and greater specialization.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-09, 04:11 PM
I still think weapon focus/ specialization should be based off of BAB because the "wizard" can go an entire campaign without even drawing a weapon and for some reason he just gets that much better with it each time he hits a specific level.
Mind you that a wizard is most likely to take "Weapon Focus (ray)" or "Weapon Focus (touch spell)", which he or she will use.

Also, I question the sanity of a Wizard that took Weapon Focus with a weapon he or she doesn't use.

MrNexx
2007-02-09, 04:14 PM
That's why a feat tree is better that auto scaling.

and Stealth is brokes
H&MS > ALL 'cept L&S

Matthew, I agree with PTWF. I always argue that house rule with TWF.

The problem with feat trees, as shown by TWF, is the cost. Feats are valuable due to scarcity... I think one of the few things more valuable than feats is caster levels. Thus, if I want to be the ultimate sneaker, I'm going to max out my sneaky skills, I'm going to put a feat (or even two or three) into sneaking... but you're now saying I'm going to put all of my feats into sneaking to get Improved Skill Focus: Move Silently and Improved Skill Focus: Hide and the the Greater versions of them, etc.

An auto-scaling version negates the need for these.

Kantolin
2007-02-09, 04:19 PM
Not worth it compared to what? If you have to reference non-core stuff to say it's not worthy compared to non-core, then I agree whole-heartedly.
Admittedly, frequently that's because in core there is simply no other method of doing that. This does not necessarily mean that the core feat is balanced.

After all, the only method of raising your hit points in core is Toughness, which is a notoriously bad option for the vast majority of units besides, possibly, the low-constitution wizard. The existance of a feat more useful to more people doesn't make the flat bonus of toughness not as useful; toughness just plain' isn't that useful to begin with.

If the 20th level fighter is purely in core, he may end up taking feats just because they're there. This also does not make them worthwhile feats, it just means he's essentially forced to waste his feats there.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-09, 04:20 PM
Mind you that a wizard is most likely to take "Weapon Focus (ray)" or "Weapon Focus (touch spell)", which he or she will use.

Also, I question the sanity of a Wizard that took Weapon Focus with a weapon he or she doesn't use.

I agree with that, I was just using it as a hypothetical situation. In the case of rays or touch spells they are hitting touch ACs. Soon the scaling Weapon focus would soon be so good that they could never miss except on a 1 in most cases making them even more dangerous with their save or lose spells. It just seems like scaling like this for everyone is a little powerful because the ACs don't scale the same way. DCs for skill checks do so it makes sense for them and dodge would be great also because as I just said generally AC doesn't scale so making them level dependent just seems to make more sense that the weapon feats. :smallsmile:

Golthur
2007-02-09, 04:28 PM
The problem with feat trees, as shown by TWF, is the cost. Feats are valuable due to scarcity... I think one of the few things more valuable than feats is caster levels. Thus, if I want to be the ultimate sneaker, I'm going to max out my sneaky skills, I'm going to put a feat (or even two or three) into sneaking... but you're now saying I'm going to put all of my feats into sneaking to get Improved Skill Focus: Move Silently and Improved Skill Focus: Hide and the the Greater versions of them, etc.

An auto-scaling version negates the need for these.
That's why I ended up going the middle road of a feat/skill hybrid system.

Like the feat tree advocates, I don't like autoscaling feats based on CL or BAB, because I want the character to have to invest something in it to reap the reward. But, like you, I think a feat is too much. Feats are too valuable for dinky +1s. Skill points seemed the perfect compromise to me.

Matthew proposed a simpler variant to my (admittedly complex) system, which I found interesting. The idea is that you would purchase the Dodge feat (giving you +1 dodge), and you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus per 4 skill points you sink into the feat. You'd need to boost the skill points of fighter types to do that, but I have no problem with that :smile: This variant also has interesting implications for things like Skill Focus (such as perhaps granting additional "tricks" with the skill - e.g. reduced or no running start for Jump, and so on).

Matthew
2007-02-09, 04:29 PM
The problem with feat trees, as shown by TWF, is the cost. Feats are valuable due to scarcity... I think one of the few things more valuable than feats is caster levels. Thus, if I want to be the ultimate sneaker, I'm going to max out my sneaky skills, I'm going to put a feat (or even two or three) into sneaking... but you're now saying I'm going to put all of my feats into sneaking to get Improved Skill Focus: Move Silently and Improved Skill Focus: Hide and the the Greater versions of them, etc.

An auto-scaling version negates the need for these.

Exactly, and this is what Golthur has been trying to address with his Feat and Manoeuvre System. As it turns out, Feats have been a bit of a trap for D&D precisely because of the auto scale / non auto scale differences. It's worth remembering, though, that something like Hide and Move Silently already pretty much Auto Scales via Skill Points. The potential additional +5 Bonus through three Feats is better at Low Levels than High Levels.

[Oops simued]