Battle Jump, Sun School and Shadow Pounce

[Ikeren]

So there are some super weird rules interactions here:
Battle Jump: Unapproachable East: (Imagine a DM doesn't care that it requires you to be from the Taer region filled with mostly Taers

You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent...If you hit, you can choose either to deal double damage with a melee weapon or natural attack or to attempt a trip attack.

The most conservative interpretation would be that this is with regards to the movement restrictions for charges, which usually require 10 feet movement, not 5 feet movement. The rest of the feats benefit is double damage/increased size on trips/grapples when doing the close-charge-from above.

The most liberal interpretation of the feat is that you can get a charge as no-action as part of any action dropping you down above the enemy (Sudden Leap, Teleporting above the enemy).

Sun School, Flash of Sunset

Flash of Sunset: To use this maneuver, you must move adjacent to a foe instantaneously, as with a dimension door spell or the monk's abundant step class feature. If you do so, you can immediately make a single attack at your highest attack bonus against that foe.

Does this work with Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink? They don't have the usual "like dimension door" text that so many class features/abilities do...what does "instantaneously" mean, here? Probably "as a teleport". So: Liberal: Yes, Conservative: No

Snap Kick

When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.

Can you merge this with with Flash of Sunset for an extra attack? "Immediately make a single attack at your highest attack bonus" is none of "a standard attack" "a full attack" or "a strike maneuver."

On the other hand, it's pretty close.


Crinti Shadow Marauder's 5th level ability is Shadow Pounce, which lets you make a full attack after teleporting next to someone.


At the end of this, I'm looking for a build that takes full advantage of all these abilities, as if they interacted perfectly. Here's what I've got:

Level 1: Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian:
Level 2: Monk 1:
Level 3: Monk 2:
Level 4: Fighter 1:
Level 5: Fighter 2:
Level 6: Crinti Shadow Marauder 1
Level 7: Crinti Shadow Marauder 2
Level 8: Crinti Shadow Marauder 3
Level 9: Crinti Shadow Marauder 4
Level 10: Crinti Shadow Marauder 5
Level 11: Swordsage 1: Unarmed Variant --- IL 6 : Various, including Shadow Jaunt and Sudden Leap
Level 12: Swordsage 2:
Level 13: Swordsage 3:
Level 14: Swordsage 4: --- IL 9 --- Shadow Stride
Level 15: Swordsage 5:
Level 16: Swordsage 6:
Level 17: Swordsage 7:
Level 18: Swordsage 8: --- IL 13 --- Shadow Blink
Level 19: Swordsage 9
Level 20: Swordsage 10

Level 1 Feat: Battle Jump
Human Feat:
Level 2 Monk 1 Feat: Stunning Fist
Level 3 Monk 2 Feat: Combat Reflexes
Level 3 Feat:
Level 4 Fighter Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
Level 5 Fighter Feat: Power Attack
Level 6 Feat: Sun School
Level 9 Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Level 12 Feat: Snap Kick
Level 15 Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Level 18 Feat:

The fact that it only innately has two "sudden strike" dice from Crinti Shadow Marauder vaguely disturbs me. I'm super curious to hear build suggestions/tweaks. Final BAB is 14 (non-fractional) or 15.75 (fractional)

[animewatcha]

IIRC. One of the things about teleportation is that the destination must be able to support you weight wise. Like teleport from one ledge to another ledge. Can't teleport into the air unless you are flying with right mechanics that you can 'stay in place' in the air without needing to ascend or descend. Think it is only flight category of perfect that does hover in place.

[NoACWarrior]

The rest of the build looks OK, except that battle jump won't be functional.

Battle jump requires you to be above your opponent by 5 ft above their space, last time I checked that isn't adjacent. The rest of the shadow pounce and additional attacks only trigger on the stated abilities (DD / abundant step), and falling would have to occur AFTER the attacks from the DD / abundant step triggered feats / abilities.

Otherwise battle jump gives me an idea.

[nyjastul69]

IIRC. One of the things about teleportation is that the destination must be able to support you weight wise. Like teleport from one ledge to another ledge. Can't teleport into the air unless you are flying with right mechanics that you can 'stay in place' in the air without needing to ascend or descend. Think it is only flight category of perfect that does hover in place.

Good maneuverability also allows one to hover.

[animewatcha]

The rest of the build looks OK, except that battle jump won't be functional.

Battle jump requires you to be above your opponent by 5 ft above their space, last time I checked that isn't adjacent. The rest of the shadow pounce and additional attacks only trigger on the stated abilities (DD / abundant step), and falling would have to occur AFTER the attacks from the DD / abundant step triggered feats / abilities.

Otherwise battle jump gives me an idea.

By RAW, I can see what you mean of DD / abundant step, but Unapproachable east is like 3.0 / 3.25.

-edit-

I see about the maneuverability. Am I missing anything on the teleportation thing though?

[nyjastul69]

By RAW, I can see what you mean of DD / abundant step, but Unapproachable east is like 3.0 / 3.25.

-edit-

I see about the maneuverability. Am I missing anything on the teleportation thing though?

The teleportation bit seems spot on to me.

[Ikeren]

IIRC. One of the things about teleportation is that the destination must be able to support you weight wise. Like teleport from one ledge to another ledge. Can't teleport into the air unless you are flying with right mechanics that you can 'stay in place' in the air without needing to ascend or descend. Think it is only flight category of perfect that does hover in place.



"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."

You can't teleport nuke others. You can teleport nuke the hell out of yourself, however.


battle jump won't be functional.

Battle jump requires you to be above your opponent by 5 ft above their space, last time I checked that isn't adjacent.


(Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.)

Looks solid to me.


The rest of the shadow pounce and additional attacks only trigger on the stated abilities (DD / abundant step), and falling would have to occur AFTER the attacks from the DD / abundant step triggered feats / abilities.


Any time she uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, her shadow ride ability), she can execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation.


Shadow Hand [Teleportation]


I'm more interested in build tweaks than rules discussions here:
Increasing Attacks, increasing BAB, increasing bonus dice on the numerous attacks, maneuvers to make sure I select, and super relevant items (if any), if I should take levels of something other than swordsage 10 (put in a cloistered cleric level and go cobra-strike monk for dodge and go master of nine?).

[Shinken]

You're going to end up with a serious case of special snowflake syndrome - a human raised by taers, that traveled to Crinti and befriended the half-drows so that they would teach you their most guarded secret.

"Within 5ft" means "less than one square away". You need one square between you and your target for Battle Jump to trigger. At least that's how I would rule it.

Sun School doesn't do much for you when you can Shadow Pounce. It's just one extra attack. You should try to get teleports for every one of your actions, so you can multipounce.

[Darrin]

"Within 5ft" means "less than one square away". You need one square between you and your target for Battle Jump to trigger. At least that's how I would rule it.


Battle Jump says "at least 5 feet", not "within 5 feet". You can start higher than 5' above your opponent. Even if you're only 5' above your opponent, if your opponent is at least 5' tall, you're still falling 10' at that point.

Unfortunately, the text for Battle Jump is so confusing that there's no clear consensus on how it's supposed to work. Last time we were arguing about this, Curmudgeon's position was that Battle Jump does not change any of the typical requirements for charging: it still requires a full-round action, you still can't change direction, and so forth. According to him, you can only use Battle Jump in a very specific and narrowly defined scenario: hanging on a wall (or if you have a natural fly speed, hovering), your opponent walks directly underneath you, and when your turn comes up, you haven't taken any other actions that would prevent a charge.

My argument was any action or movement that causes a fall directly above an opponent becomes a full-round charge. So things like Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, Blink Shirt, deliberate stall while flying, really high jump check, etc. should allow you to fall on an opponent from above to initiate a charge attack (and do so repeatedly if you have additional actions that can move you above your opponent again). Essentially, it boils down to a DM Call on how he/she thinks Battle Jump should work.

There are two other methods similar to Battle Jump that can be used to initiate a charge: The Roof-Jumper feat in Cityscape, and the Mantis Leap in Sword & Fist. In either case, as with Battle Jump it's not any clearer how these could be combined with Shadow Pounce.

[Shinken]

Battle Jump says "at least 5 feet", not "within 5 feet". You can start higher than 5' above your opponent. Even if you're only 5' above your opponent, if your opponent is at least 5' tall, you're still falling 10' at that point.
But that's my point. You need to be within 5ft to be adjacent so you can trigger Shadow Pounce or Sun School, but you need to at least 5ft away to trigger Battle Jump. You can't trigger it all at the same time.

[Ikeren]

But that's my point. You need to be within 5ft to be adjacent so you can trigger Shadow Pounce or Sun School, but you need to at least 5ft away to trigger Battle Jump. You can't trigger it all at the same time.

That's a good point. "At least 5 feet away" is 5 feet away, and "Within 5 feet" are pretty directly contradictory. I think I'll not worry about battle jump (except as a back up maneuver).

That being said,

I'm more interested in build tweaks than rules discussions here:
Increasing Attacks, increasing BAB, increasing bonus dice on the numerous attacks, maneuvers to make sure I select, and super relevant items (if any), if I should take levels of something other than swordsage 10 (put in a cloistered cleric level and go cobra-strike monk for dodge and go master of nine?).

[Deophaun]

According to him, you can only use Battle Jump in a very specific and narrowly defined scenario: hanging on a wall (or if you have a natural fly speed, hovering), your opponent walks directly underneath you, and when your turn comes up, you haven't taken any other actions that would prevent a charge.
According to the feat itself, Curmudgeon is wrong:

For example, a ledge 10 feet above the floor of a cavern would suffice for jumping on a Medium-sized creature, while a ledge 15 feet high is required for jumping on a Large creature.
If you were hanging off a ledge 10 feet above the floor of a cavern, your body would be only 5 feet above the cavern floor, and less than 5 feet above the creature you were jumping on. So, Battle Jump would not work, because Battle Jump says it doesn't work under those circumstances. But, Battle Jump says this ledge is sufficient for you to execute the maneuver against a medium-size creature. Therefore, you must be standing on the ledge, which means you no longer have a straight line to the target, which means Battle Jump must change the conditions for a Charge.

[TuggyNE]

That's a good point. "At least 5 feet away" is 5 feet away, and "Within 5 feet" are pretty directly contradictory. I think I'll not worry about battle jump (except as a back up maneuver).

The definition of "adjacent" given a) can reasonably be read as explicitly including, not implicitly excluding, opponents that are exactly 5 feet away and b) does not explicitly exclude anything else, so when combined with the PHB glossary definition ("In a square that shares a border or a corner with a designated square.") there is no possible problem or conflict.

[Shinken]

The definition of "adjacent" given a) can reasonably be read as explicitly including, not implicitly excluding, opponents that are exactly 5 feet away and b) does not explicitly exclude anything else, so when combined with the PHB glossary definition ("In a square that shares a border or a corner with a designated square.") there is no possible problem or conflict.

Movement is done in 5-ft squares. Shadow Pounce only triggers when you teleport adjacent to a target. Battle Jump requires 5ft of vertical space between you can the targer. Considering "u" is the where you teleport to and "t" is where your target is:

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o717/Thiago_Rosa/battlepounce1_zps9cc3f69d.jpg
You can Shadow Jump here. You can't use Battle Jump here.

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o717/Thiago_Rosa/battlepounce2_zps2b6076a2.jpg
You can use Battle Jump here. You can't use Shadow Jump here.

[Chronos]

If you're in the cube directly above your opponent, you are exactly five feet away, and can use both Battle Jump and Sun School.

[Shinken]

If you're in the cube directly above your opponent, you are exactly five feet away, and can use both Battle Jump and Sun School.

No, you are not 5ft away. Distance is counted in 5ft increments in 3.5. You're either 5ft away or adjacent.

[Ikeren]

Yep, I'm with Shinken. I'll leave Battle Jump in as backup for round 2 once round 1 shadowjaunts are blown, but not expect to use both.

Anyone have any advice for the actual build as opposed to the rules? :smalltongue:

Increasing Attacks, increasing BAB, increasing bonus dice on the numerous attacks, maneuvers to make sure I select, and super relevant items (if any), if I should take levels of something other than swordsage 10 (put in a cloistered cleric level and go cobra-strike monk for dodge and go master of nine?).

[Shinken]

Anyone have any advice for the actual build as opposed to the rules? :smalltongue:


I'd consider Snap Kick and Planar Touchstone (oxyrynchus) for extra attacks. You can also check the Eagle Claw weapon, from Sandstorm - you can spend a feat to get flurry of blows with it. Consider Hidden Talent for Dimension Hop at level 1 or get Anklets of Translocation. Get a Bolt Shirt and/or Boots of Swift Passage for a move action teleport. get a Shadow Cloak or dip Wizard for Abrupt Jaunt for an immediate action teleport. That way, you can teleport with a swift, with a move, with an immediate and with a standard action. That's four full attacks every in a nova round. I would also consider Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt) as a feat so you can shadowpounce at will.

[TuggyNE]

Battle Jump requires 5ft of vertical space between you can the targer.

How does that turn into "5 feet of empty space beyond the 5 feet of empty space between two creatures in adjacent squares"? I'm not seeing it.

[animewatcha]

I'd consider Snap Kick and Planar Touchstone (oxyrynchus) for extra attacks. You can also check the Eagle Claw weapon, from Sandstorm - you can spend a feat to get flurry of blows with it. Consider Hidden Talent for Dimension Hop at level 1 or get Anklets of Translocation. Get a Bolt Shirt and/or Boots of Swift Passage for a move action teleport. get a Shadow Cloak or dip Wizard for Abrupt Jaunt for an immediate action teleport. That way, you can teleport with a swift, with a move, with an immediate and with a standard action. That's four full attacks every in a nova round. I would also consider Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt) as a feat so you can shadowpounce at will.

Swift and immediate can't be used in same turn unless very specificly said otherwise.

[Shinken]

How does that turn into "5 feet of empty space beyond the 5 feet of empty space between two creatures in adjacent squares"? I'm not seeing it.

You are considered to occupy your whole square. That's why it's called adjacent. Therefore, there is no empty space between adjacent creatures. I don't understand where you're getting those 5ft.


Swift and immediate can't be used in same turn unless very specificly said otherwise.
You are 50% right and 50% mistaken. You can't use your immediate action when your turn comes up because that's the same thing as using your swift action. Whenever you use up your swift, standard and move action and thus finish your turn, you can interrupt anyone's action with your immediate teleport, triggering a 4th full attack by giving up your next turn's swift action.

[TuggyNE]

You are considered to occupy your whole square. That's why it's called adjacent. Therefore, there is no empty space between adjacent creatures. I don't understand where you're getting those 5ft.

"Adjacent" is defined as both "within 5 feet" and "in a neighboring square". Therefore, a creature in a neighboring square may, by definition, be up to 4.999 feet away (and, I would argue, 5 feet even*), which means that your idea of "no empty space" is disproven from the text you originally used. Also, this:
A 5-foot square, for instance, can hold several characters; they just can’t all fight effectively in that small space.

* Additional citation:
Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. This is pretty blatantly inclusive, not exclusive, and of course further implies that attacking adjacent creatures usually, if not always, involves some distance.

[Shinken]

"Adjacent" is defined as both "within 5 feet" and "in a neighboring square". Therefore, a creature in a neighboring square may, by definition, be up to 4.999 feet away (and, I would argue, 5 feet even*), which means that your idea of "no empty space" is disproven from the text you originally used. Also, this:

* Additional citation: This is pretty blatantly inclusive, not exclusive, and of course further implies that attacking adjacent creatures usually, if not always, involves some distance.

OK, man, believe what you want to believe. I'm done arguing.

[Ikeren]

Yeah, I didn't really want this thread to be about a rules discussion so much as options for tweaking the build --- as I've said a few places, including the OP "At the end of this, I'm looking for a build that takes full advantage of all these abilities, as if they interacted perfectly."

So thank you, Shinken. That's good advice across the board.