Tracking, Catching and Arresting or Owning people?

[Gwazi Magnum]

May it be either for slavery purposes or catching criminals what do you find are effective ways of tracking people down, catching them and being able to keep them contained may it be for slave or justice means?

[Crake]

May it be either for slavery purposes or catching criminals what do you find are effective ways of tracking people down, catching them and being able to keep them contained may it be for slave or justice means?

What level range are we talking about here. Both for the captors and the victims?

[Gwazi Magnum]

What level range are we talking about here. Both for the captors and the victims?

Anything basic that low levels can pull of is preferable.

But higher level options are also an option for when it does happen.

[ChaoticDitz]

The easy answers are Scry and Permanent Antimagic Field cages with adamantine everything inside another room composed of Walls of Force with a self-resetting trap of Otiluke's Suppressing Field (Conjuration) on a pedestal in the center, all in a Hallowed Area with Dimensional Anchor attached to prevent teleportation out of the location. Surrounded by Greater Planar Bound Pit Fiends.

In practice, it's incredibly unrealistic that the government has access to spellcasters with more than 2nd level spells. So... Probably just Locate Creature and steel cages with DC 40 locks plus an Alarm and maybe another Abjuration or two for priority prisoners.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The easy answers are Scry and Permanent Antimagic Field cages with adamantine everything inside another room composed of Walls of Force with a self-resetting trap of Otiluke's Suppressing Field (Conjuration) on a pedestal in the center, all in a Hallowed Area with Dimensional Anchor attached to prevent teleportation out of the location. Surrounded by Greater Planar Bound Pit Fiends.

In practice, it's incredibly unrealistic that the government has access to spellcasters with more than 2nd level spells. So... Probably just Locate Creature and steel cages with DC 40 locks plus an Alarm and maybe another Abjuration or two for priority prisoners.

I should of clarified, it has to be anything you can be mobile/move the prisoner/slave around with.
Especially in a slave sense cause you need them to actually move/do work rather than just sit in a cell.

[BrokenChord]

I'm a rather merciless person when addressing fiction, so I'd probably use the cages and Scrying/Locate Person (or creature) in any settlements and just throw them into extradimensional storage for travel. Probably set up a pony express system between settlements. Use regimented system to get them all into extradimensional bags and get said bags attached to/inside dragon(or similarly fast and preferably flying creature)-driven carts, have them fly for 11 rounds (about 300 feet per round, so 3300-ish feet, or a little over half a mile) and have them systematically removed as quickly as possible upon landing. Those with 11 Con or less would have started making saves; this is convenient, as it potentially begins to root out the weak slaves so they can be replaced with their less easily commanded but more efficiently working undead counterparts.

A systematic killing would be entirely unnecessary and unwarranted, as living slaves with good Con modifiers are useful in being able to receive and follow more complicated and varied commands than mindless undead while having the natural stamina to toil for long hours.

Let the slaves breathe, load them up, cart them off again. By the time they arrive at their location ten or so trips away, the weak have been mostly rooted out and the trip required a large number of men but, as far as government-level organizations go, a rather small expenditure of resources, much cheaper than carrying them around in cage-wagons driven by oxen, which require far more food and both mundane and magical defense costs in mobile form, practically necessitating valuable wizards tag along, and needing fortified travel routes which could still be broken. Altogether too much of a bother. Instead, you have singular fortified locations (who could theoretically be receiving supplies with the prisoners, since time will be spent letting the slaves breathe and setting up for the next trip) and fast-moving fliers who only cost as much as their training and would be difficult to catch or really even disrupt.

The bags are reusable and thus their resource expenditure pays itself off rapidly, and the undead raised from the weaklings are equally rapid in repaying themselves if you have the casters to manage raising them, though their cost is a much more steady stream.

Hope this helped any.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm a rather merciless person when addressing fiction, so I'd probably use the cages and Scrying/Locate Person (or creature) in any settlements and just throw them into extradimensional storage for travel. Probably set up a pony express system between settlements. Use regimented system to get them all into extradimensional bags and get said bags attached to/inside dragon(or similarly fast and preferably flying creature)-driven carts, have them fly for 11 rounds (about 300 feet per round, so 3300-ish feet, or a little over half a mile) and have them systematically removed as quickly as possible upon landing. Those with 11 Con or less would have started making saves; this is convenient, as it potentially begins to root out the weak slaves so they can be replaced with their less easily commanded but more efficiently working undead counterparts.

A systematic killing would be entirely unnecessary and unwarranted, as living slaves with good Con modifiers are useful in being able to receive and follow more complicated and varied commands than mindless undead while having the natural stamina to toil for long hours.

Let the slaves breathe, load them up, cart them off again. By the time they arrive at their location ten or so trips away, the weak have been mostly rooted out and the trip required a large number of men but, as far as government-level organizations go, a rather small expenditure of resources, much cheaper than carrying them around in cage-wagons driven by oxen, which require far more food and both mundane and magical defense costs in mobile form, practically necessitating valuable wizards tag along, and needing fortified travel routes which could still be broken. Altogether too much of a bother. Instead, you have singular fortified locations (who could theoretically be receiving supplies with the prisoners, since time will be spent letting the slaves breathe and setting up for the next trip) and fast-moving fliers who only cost as much as their training and would be difficult to catch or really even disrupt.

The bags are reusable and thus their resource expenditure pays itself off rapidly, and the undead raised from the weaklings are equally rapid in repaying themselves if you have the casters to manage raising them, though their cost is a much more steady stream.

Hope this helped any.

I assume you mean a portable hole?
I can't think of anything else that would work. :/

So basically if I understand this right, shove them in there.
Drag them in the hole until I get to the destination and the weak ones will die off which will be turned into zombies while the strong ones remains and work as living slaves?
I can see this working, but what about if they start using magic and such to get out? Or how do I keep controlling them once outside of the hole?

[BrokenChord]

Antimagic Shackles from the Book of Exalted Deeds help, along with standard gags and hand-bindings.

I was actually thinking Bags of Holding, personally, since they're cheaper and can potentially hold more people. Accounting for weight and cubic feet per person on average, a Bag of Holding III can hold 6 people for a fraction of a Portable Hole's cost. They also give 100 rounds of air to a single Medium sized creature unless you take the RAW really anally, in which case don't worry if they die because dead people can still take actions.

So actually, with how air per creature works in D&D, you could add 1 or 2 rounds to my previous assessment. 12/13 rounds of flight. One round when the Bags of Holding are shut and the dragons/whatever take off, 12/13 rounds of flight, one round to land and open the bags. 14 total, 15 if you decide the round the bags are closed doesn't count as their first breathing round. They get to breathe for two rounds, they hold their breath as long as possible, those with less than 12 Con need to start making Constitution saves vs. suffocating.

300/600 more feet of flight per trip. Handy.

[Vrock_Summoner]

There should be a rule against excessive cruelty and objectification towards fictional characters on these boards. These posts and the dragon stomachs thread... You're a monster, BrokenChord. :smallfrown:

[Gwazi Magnum]

Antimagic Shackles from the Book of Exalted Deeds help, along with standard gags and hand-bindings.

I was actually thinking Bags of Holding, personally, since they're cheaper and can potentially hold more people. Accounting for weight and cubic feet per person on average, a Bag of Holding III can hold 6 people for a fraction of a Portable Hole's cost. They also give 100 rounds of air to a single Medium sized creature unless you take the RAW really anally, in which case don't worry if they die because dead people can still take actions.

So actually, with how air per creature works in D&D, you could add 1 or 2 rounds to my previous assessment. 12/13 rounds of flight. One round when the Bags of Holding are shut and the dragons/whatever take off, 12/13 rounds of flight, one round to land and open the bags. 14 total, 15 if you decide the round the bags are closed doesn't count as their first breathing round. They get to breathe for two rounds, they hold their breath as long as possible, those with less than 12 Con need to start making Constitution saves vs. suffocating.

300/600 more feet of flight per trip. Handy.

I'll give the shackles a look, thanks. :)

As for Bag of Holding, our group had a guest DM a long time back who gave ruling on those items that prevented this abuse. He basically said "Show me you opening the bag" and used it to highlight how big the hole of the bag was you can fight things in, and then asked "How can you fit a person through that?". The basic logic being the inside may hold several people, but the entrance isn't big enough to get them in from.

Also I forgot to mention this last time, but how would I ever get a dragon to ship these things?
I'd doubt a DM would ever let me so any method I use would have to be capable of being done with on-foot travel.

[Coidzor]

Mindrape/Programmed Amnesia are the high-end answer, though by that point you've also got access to Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, and an arbitrarily large horde of knock-off angels.

As far as pricing goes, the Neogi in Lords of Madness are the only source of pricing that I can think of offhand, and the only one I know of that's WOTC-derived. I'm sure Pathfinder has touched upon it somewhere for Golarion though. Other than that you'd have to go homebrew/third party.

As far as keeping them slaves, well, there's isolation, hard to escape an island and not much point to escaping the workcamp/plantation/mine itself if that's where the food is. Depends on the area & society though.

Also, how willing and able one is to homebrew items.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Mindrape/Programmed Amnesia are the high-end answer, though by that point you've also got access to Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, and an arbitrarily large horde of knock-off angels.

As far as pricing goes, the Neogi in Lords of Madness are the only source of pricing that I can think of offhand, and the only one I know of that's WOTC-derived. I'm sure Pathfinder has touched upon it somewhere for Golarion though. Other than that you'd have to go homebrew/third party.

As far as keeping them slaves, well, there's isolation, hard to escape an island and not much point to escaping the workcamp/plantation/mine itself if that's where the food is. Depends on the area & society though.

Also, how willing and able one is to homebrew items.

Considering I'm looking for possible build options/alterations not so much. :/
I'll give the Lords of Madness source a look though.

[Deophaun]

Afraid that your prisoners are going to run off? Look no further than dragoneye rune in Dragon Magic.

[BrokenChord]

Um... The opening is presumably two feet wide by two feet high, though spherical, so a two foot diameter is a more accurate representation. With that said, I'm a bit concerned that you can't show how an average person could crawl into that, especially since there won't be any issue going arms first and pulling your way in once you're in the bigger inside.

Coaxing them out may be more of a concern, but breath torture will work on most people.

Dragons aren't wholly necessary for this exercise. Give the whole ensemble a driver or two and you can achieve roughly half the speed with griffons, preferably Feebleminded at birth. Pegasi are even better, achieving only a 60 foot loss in speed per round, but tend to be really rare due to fluff and are harder to train. Griffons on the other hand tend to be reasonably common as mounts in most settings.

There are a number of other suitable fliers. Just repeat after me and remember: Feebleminding sentient creatures at birth is good. They become more obedient and easier to please, so there must be no moral qualms...

I think that addresses everything. Oh, wait...



Vrock, would you mind if I sigged that? I take pride in it and want to wear it as a badge.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Afraid that your prisoners are going to run off? Look no further than dragoneye rune in Dragon Magic.

I'll give it a look, thanks! :)


Um... The opening is presumably two feet wide by two feet high, though spherical, so a two foot diameter is a more accurate representation. With that said, I'm a bit concerned that you can't show how an average person could crawl into that, especially since there won't be any issue going arms first and pulling your way in once you're in the bigger inside.

Coaxing them out may be more of a concern, but breath torture will work on most people.

Dragons aren't wholly necessary for this exercise. Give the whole ensemble a driver or two and you can achieve roughly half the speed with griffons, preferably Feebleminded at birth. Pegasi are even better, achieving only a 60 foot loss in speed per round, but tend to be really rare due to fluff and are harder to train. Griffons on the other hand tend to be reasonably common as mounts in most settings.

There are a number of other suitable fliers. Just repeat after me and remember: Feebleminding sentient creatures at birth is good. They become more obedient and easier to please, so there must be no moral qualms...

I think that addresses everything. Oh, wait...



Vrock, would you mind if I sigged that? I take pride in it and want to wear it as a badge.


Wasn't aware it was that big :/
We just assumed it was the opening of a general bag.
This new info helps a lot though... :)

So basically I just need feeble minded fliers?
And they're supposed to reach town in 12 rounds or so?
I can hardly see the DM approving this.

[Deophaun]

Wasn't aware it was that big :/
We just assumed it was the opening of a general bag.

Think late December and the most well-known item in mythology that behaves like a bag of holding, and then look at how it's depicted. Really, "bag" is the wrong word for it. It should be "sack." It should probably also give you a competence bonus to moving through chimneys.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Think late December and the most well-known item in mythology that behaves like a bag of holding, and then look at how it's depicted. Really, "bag" is the wrong word for it. It should be "sack." It should probably also give you a competence bonus to moving through chimneys.

Really, good, point... O_O

[BrokenChord]

Well, not exactly. They are only traveling probably half a mile-ish. As I mentioned, it's sort of a Pony Express. For clarification of the term, the Pony Express was a pre-telegram mailing system where one guy got the mail, rode his horse full-speed till a measured point where a horse would be too exhausted to continue much further, then switched horses to keep going from point to point.

This pony express probably doesn't require any such switching of animals, since they're only flying a minute at a time. It's meant to get you from one place to the next in increments that give the stronger slaves time to not die of suffocation.

I can see why a DM would be unsure about this, but really, just the necessitating of midway points lets him introduce plot points in the form of, say, one point getting overrun, or losing a bunch of slaves during a battle that kept the pegasi from landing and needing to make up the costs... Not to mention, y'know, the moral uproar of the populace at your ruthlessness. The DM has plenty of maneuvering room to work with this, so it's worth trying to convince him.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, not exactly. They are only traveling probably half a mile-ish. As I mentioned, it's sort of a Pony Express. For clarification of the term, the Pony Express was a pre-telegram mailing system where one guy got the mail, rode his horse full-speed till a measured point where a horse would be too exhausted to continue much further, then switched horses to keep going from point to point.

This pony express probably doesn't require any such switching of animals, since they're only flying a minute at a time. It's meant to get you from one place to the next in increments that give the stronger slaves time to not die of suffocation.

I can see why a DM would be unsure about this, but really, just the necessitating of midway points lets him introduce plot points in the form of, say, one point getting overrun, or losing a bunch of slaves during a battle that kept the pegasi from landing and needing to make up the costs... Not to mention, y'know, the moral uproar of the populace at your ruthlessness. The DM has plenty of maneuvering room to work with this, so it's worth trying to convince him.

I don't trust my DM to let this kind of system work.
He'd pounce at the chance to do something evil to the players and screw it up.
I'd rather try techniques that don't require so much on DM mercy.

[BrokenChord]

He can feel free to show no mercy. It's called being the DM, and he can do that whether you do something bad or not. Him screwing you over just gives you a new plot hook anyway. What's the harm?

[Gwazi Magnum]

He can feel free to show no mercy. It's called being the DM, and he can do that whether you do something bad or not. Him screwing you over just gives you a new plot hook anyway. What's the harm?

Entire character build/wealth wasted cause he felt like trolling us as a DM... :/

[Vrock_Summoner]

I want nothing to do with the rest of the conversation matter here, but I'll say that if he screws you over for doing what BrokenChord said solely because he wants to "lol troll the powergamers" and he doesn't reimburse your costs, he doesn't understand DMing, he doesn't understand storyweaving, and he doesn't understand what powergaming means in D&D if he cries foul if a plan has too many mechanical moving parts. You have much to teach him about the true DMing way, best of luck.

[Coidzor]

He can feel free to show no mercy. It's called being the DM, and he can do that whether you do something bad or not. Him screwing you over just gives you a new plot hook anyway. What's the harm?

Interpersonal currency. Being overly capricious as a DM expends one's currency with one's players, so it'd better damn be worth it. :smalltongue: