Quick question about Hide

[Valtu]

Hey guys, as I've mentioned here before, our group is currently trying a "rotating DM" system, and it's the first time any of us has DM'ed before.

I've got what should be a really simple answer, but I'm not seeing anything that directly answers my question (although I may just be missing it, of course :smalltongue:)

If you are said to be hidden, having made a successful checks for Hide and Move Silently, and you attack someone, aren't they considered flat-footed?


This came up last week, where a few of us had hidden and gone around the side of an area, while the rest of the party faced our enemies head-on. It was ruled that since there was no surprise round, that attacking while hidden didn't provide any real advantages unless you were a rogue with Sneak Attack damage.

[sakuuya]

Hey guys, as I've mentioned here before, our group is currently trying a "rotating DM" system, and it's the first time any of us has DM'ed before.

I've got what should be a really simple answer, but I'm not seeing anything that directly answers my question (although I may just be missing it, of course :smalltongue:)

If you are said to be hidden, having made a successful checks for Hide and Move Silently, and you attack someone, aren't they considered flat-footed?


This came up last week, where a few of us had hidden and gone around the side of an area, while the rest of the party faced our enemies head-on. It was ruled that since there was no surprise round, that attacking while hidden didn't provide any real advantages unless you were a rogue with Sneak Attack damage.

If you're successfully hidden and want to make a melee attack, you have to make another Hide check, with a -5 penalty per 5' of open space you have to move through to get to your target. If the check is successful, your target doesn't see you until you've made your attack, rendering them flat-footed for that attack, because if you're successfully hidden from a creature, that creature treats you as invisible. After the attack, unless you have HiPS or a way to get back to cover/concealment without being observed, you're no longer hidden.

If you're successfully hidden and want to make a ranged attack, you can make a single ranged attack treating the opponent as flat-footed and then immediately make another Hide check as a move action at a -20 penalty. If that check is successful, you remain hidden--essentially, your opponents can't tell where the shot came from.

[Valtu]

If you're successfully hidden and want to make a melee attack, you have to make another Hide check, with a -5 penalty per 5' of open space you have to move through to get to your target. If the check is successful, your target doesn't see you until you've made your attack, rendering them flat-footed for that attack, because if you're successfully hidden from a creature, that creature treats you as invisible. After the attack, unless you have HiPS or a way to get back to cover/concealment without being observed, you're no longer hidden.

If you're successfully hidden and want to make a ranged attack, you can make a single ranged attack treating the opponent as flat-footed and then immediately make another Hide check as a move action at a -20 penalty. If that check is successful, you remain hidden--essentially, your opponents can't tell where the shot came from.

Thanks! It sounds like that came straight from the PHB. I must've just missed it last time I looked it over. At work now and wanted to ask while I was still thinking about it or else when I could actually look it up, I'd probably forget haha.

[sakuuya]

Some of it is from the PHB--the ranged attack bit is, certainly--but most of it is from the Rules Compendium (p. 92, if you wanna look for yourself), so YMMV as to how authoritative your group would find it. Personally, I think the PHB does a crummy job explaining how Hide works, and the Rules Compendium is much clearer, but I know some people tend to view the latter with suspicion.

[Yuki Akuma]

Being invisible doesn't make your opponents flat-footed.

It gives you a +2 bonus to hit them and allows you to ignore their Dexterity bonus. There is a difference (although it's a tiny one).

If you ambush someone from hiding before they've realised there's a fight going on, they will be flat-footed, but that's not because they can't see you. It's because you surprised them and they haven't acted yet.

[sakuuya]

Being invisible doesn't make your opponents flat-footed.

It gives you a +2 bonus to hit them and allows you to ignore their Dexterity bonus. There is a difference (although it's a tiny one).

If you ambush someone from hiding before they've realised there's a fight going on, they will be flat-footed, but that's not because they can't see you. It's because you surprised them and they haven't acted yet.

You're absolutely right. I tend to conflate the two, but that's a bad habit. Sorry! :smallredface:

[Yuki Akuma]

You're absolutely right. I tend to conflate the two, but that's a bad habit. Sorry! :smallredface:

The difference only really comes up in a tiny number of cases, so it doesn't really matter much. I'm just a pedant.

[Valtu]

Some of it is from the PHB--the ranged attack bit is, certainly--but most of it is from the Rules Compendium (p. 92, if you wanna look for yourself), so YMMV as to how authoritative your group would find it. Personally, I think the PHB does a crummy job explaining how Hide works, and the Rules Compendium is much clearer, but I know some people tend to view the latter with suspicion.

Ah, ok, I don't feel so bad then, haha. I always forget about the Rules Compendium. Great resource. Definitely going to be pulling that one out more often.

Thanks!