Tumble & Concentration checks vs AoOs: a fix (?)

[.Zero]

I really hate the way someone can avoid AoOs passively simply by investing some skill ranks and without a dice roll. So i tried to find a way to reasonably enhance the DC using 3.5 rules.
Initially i thought that setting those DCs to opponents' attack rolls would be a good idea, but then it seemed really silly to me (mostly for fluff and concept reasons), and the big problem is that when the game scales, you must face attack rolls of 50s and 60s, resulting in too much sky-high DCs.
I
I'm trying to achieve a balanced check, that you would not automatically succeed and that requires some investment from you. I mean, avoid AoOs should not be a game feature, and i think they should be a big weapon of certain builds and mundane meleer in general, without forcing a BSF to get Thicket of Blades and Mage Slayer.

I came up with these new DCs:

TUMBLE
10 + opponent's BAB + opponent's Dex modifier + opponents 1/2 Int modifier.
If the Int modifier is a negative number, use double that modifier instead. Creatures with " - " Int score are considered as having a -10 Int modifier for the purpose of determining the DC.
If you are provoking and AoO from a creature bigger than you, the DC decreases by 4 for each size category difference between you and that creature. [My wording sucks, forgive me]

What does this mean? Why am i using Int and Dex modifiers?
1) The "10". It's a staple of 3.5 DCs and i think it fits well with this one too. Not much to say.
2) Opponet's BAB. That simple number alone says how good you are at fighting, so avoiding an AoO from a fighter is basically more difficult than avoid one from an animal, a mindless corpse or a caster (more on this later). I think this one is thematically perfect and i don't have to tell you why. Just think about at Wizard = 1/2 BAB, and Fighter = Full BAB.
We can deduce that these classes have a different approach at close quarter combat, with the latter enhancing it at its best. I find it quite resonable to include BAB in the DC, because with my method, everything is based upon who you're facing, and if it's a good fighter you're not going to have a good time.
3) Dex/Int modifier. The big issue. This is the crucial part of it all. It came in my mind when i thought of Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Factotum, Warblade's Int synergies and the like, so i decided to include these modifiers because being good at fighting sometimes is not enough. Hitting very hard means nothing if you can't hit them. You must be smart and/or agile to smash that freaky guy jumping here and there in your threatened area. And generally speaking, Krusk the raging brute is not supposed to be so smart or agile.
This feature will advantage intelligent and precise fighting above pure destructive force, and if you want to hit a tumbler, you have to beat it at his own game or you'll end up only showing that your fists can crack solid stone, but can do nothing against swiftness.
4a) 1/2 Int modifier. Now, that's wierd. Why on Earth am i including a half modifier? I have both fluff and mechanical reasons for this. In a similar way than Str, being intelligent and able to cleverly spot a person's weak points means nothing if that person is faster than you. Your superior intellect will give you an advantage over mere haste, though, so you'll be able to understand how and when to hit that tumbling jerk, but you won't be able to effectively do it without good physical abilities. That's why i think a half Int modifier is a good thing.
Mechanically speaking, the half modifier prevents a caster to have a DC higher than a melee combatant.
4b) 2x negative Int modifier. Another issue I'm proud of. According to my way of handling this, being intelligent in combat is mandatory, is the solid base of my point of view of melee fighting, so you won't get many benefits from high Int score, because is a sort of prerequisite. That's basically why you get only a half modifier applied to the DC. On the other side you'll strongly be penalized if not being smart. Having a bad Int score means that you mostly rely on brute force to overcome your enemies, and it's perfectly logical that you'll have difficulties on concentrating on the best moment to hit a fast moving foe
5) Size category modifiers. 3.5 enhances small size characters' AC and attack rolls and penalizes big things in the same manner, so it seems logical to me to apply the same limitations to my new DC. I cannot imagine a gigantic monster of unthinkable power being so swift and agile to hit a halfling rogue with max Dex and Tumble.
And above all the rest, size mods help in keeping resonably low the huge DC granted by the massive BAB of Tarrasque-like creatures and wizards or gishes morphed in gold dragon forms. I like it.

I made several "tests" by myself assuming 20th level generic characters with maxed abilities scores and tumble ranks.
"A" is a rogue-like weapon finesse guy, with full ranks in Tumble and a Dex score of 34 = +12mod (18 +5level +5tome +6item).
"B" is a big melee machine with full ranks in tumble and a Dex score of 20 = +5mod (14 + 6item).
"C" is a wizard with 10 to 20 cross-class ranks in tumble and a Dex of 18 = +4 mod (12 +6item).

Vs The BSF
This guy has 20 bab, Dex mod +6 (16 + 6item) and Int mod of +2, resulting in a DC of 37

Vs The Swift Thief
BAB 15, Dex mod +12 (18 + 6item +5tome +5level), Int mod +6 resulting in a DC of 40

Vs The Wizard
BAB 10, Dex mod +5, Int mod +12, DC = 31

Vs The Tarrasque
BAB 48, Dex mod +3, Int mod -4 (thus is -8 for the DC), resulting in a DC of 37 for a medium PC.

A is obviously the best at doing this and will almost always succeed the checks, while B needs to be more lucky and C is having a real bad time, but he can however spend actions and spells buffing himself up and maybe ending up beig the bast of the tree. This is exactly what i wanted.

What do those numbers say? You surely noted that with my method non high Dex animals aren't much a problem and this is good, 'cause their instinct is not sufficient to make them aware of how and when to hit a distracted foe. But now gold dragons or polymorph any object-ed or shapechange-d guys in such forms are a bigger threat and this is good. I mean, you're fighting a full BAB, very intelligent creature! Size penalties should mitigate those DCs, though.
In either way, with my method you actually need full ranks in tumble and a good Dex mod, and even if both are high you mostly need to roll a dice of 5+. This is exactly what i wanted to do for i strictly believe that avoiding AoOs should not be passively granted. And now moving during a fight remains a tectical choice all over the campaign.

CONCENTRATION
Very simple: 10 + opponent's BAB + spell level + opponent's Dex modifier.

I decided not to include Int mods because casting a spell in threatened area is yet an evident demonstration of being distracted and someone does not need to be extremely smart to get it. Even an animal can see that a wierd man saying "bula bula badam" and moving his hands in the air is an easy target.
Max DC here will be something like 46. It's a huge DC, but, i mean, casting a spell is way too different from jumping swiftly across the battlefield.

Now, what do you think? How do you feel about my concept fluff? Are there any bugs i didn't see?
Please forgive my bad english! ;)

[John Longarrow]

.zero

Your solution doesn't include that characters can purchase skill enhancers pretty cheaply.

At 5th level, anyone interested in tumble will drop between 900gp and 2,500gp for a +3-+5 bonus to tumble.
By 10th, you are looking at 4,900gp for a +7, and 10,000gp at 15th for a +10.

This does put your sliding scale back to what players are use to.

The normal tumble check goes up by +2 for each opponent. Makes it easy to avoid one, but hard to avoid several. Does your planned method increase the DC based on multiple enemies?

[Deophaun]

First off, if you want to hit someone who is casting a spell, you ready an action. There's no Concentration check to avoid it, and your damage is likely going to exceed whatever Concentration check is needed to cast the spell successfully. So, this issue we can safely put in the "already resolved in basic rules" category.

Your other position is, well... let's see. I think the fairest way to do what you want, with what you described, is to just remove Tumble from the game. Because it seems the purpose of this system is for people investing in Tumble to never actually get better at it. They get to invest anywhere from around a fifth to a half of their skill points all to maintain, hopefully, a 50/50 shot at success. And just forget about trying to go full speed. Given that, Tumble becomes a trap, so get rid of it instead.

[Zombimode]

I really hate the way someone can avoid AoOs passively simply by investing some skill ranks and without a dice roll. So i tried to find a way to reasonably enhance the DC using 3.5 rules.

You need to have tumble on your class skill list AND wear not more than light armor AND carry only a light load AND need to invest skill points.

Only a small subset of characters can use tumble to avoid AoOs. For those, being nimble and darting around the battlefield is probably part of their job description and the desired image. There is no need to remove this option.

[Snowbluff]

First off, if you want to hit someone who is casting a spell, you ready an action. There's no Concentration check to avoid it, and your damage is likely going to exceed whatever Concentration check is needed to cast the spell successfully. So, this issue we can safely put in the "already resolved in basic rules" category.

Your other position is, well... let's see. I think the fairest way to do what you want, with what you described, is to just remove Tumble from the game. Because it seems the purpose of this system is for people investing in Tumble to never actually get better at it. They get to invest anywhere from around a fifth to a half of their skill points all to maintain, hopefully, a 50/50 shot at success. And just forget about trying to go full speed. Given that, Tumble becomes a trap, so get rid of it instead.

This. Tumble and Concentration that are skills that should do something. Skills doing more is good. Skills doing less is bad.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Tumble is a critical part of rogue, monk, and other such class's jobs. They can't hang in melee for too long yet are stuck with no spells and thus expected to mix it up. Being able to flee melee safely, to hit and run with their attacks....these classes DO NOT FUNCTION without easy tumbling. I repeat, THEY DO NOT FUNCTION.

Pathfinder went the route you did, basically. Tumble is suicide in PF. And monks are an even crappier class (I didn't think it was possible). And Rogue went from one of the best noncasters to squabbling with monk over who sucks more. Tumble was only one of the reasons, but it was a pretty significant one. The current system isn't broken, stop trying to "fix" it.


Your other position is, well... let's see. I think the fairest way to do what you want, with what you described, is to just remove Tumble from the game. Because it seems the purpose of this system is for people investing in Tumble to never actually get better at it. They get to invest anywhere from around a fifth to a half of their skill points all to maintain, hopefully, a 50/50 shot at success. And just forget about trying to go full speed. Given that, Tumble becomes a trap, so get rid of it instead.

Also this.


You need to have tumble on your class skill list AND wear not more than light armor AND carry only a light load AND need to invest skill points.

Only a small subset of characters can use tumble to avoid AoOs. For those, being nimble and darting around the battlefield is probably part of their job description and the desired image. There is no need to remove this option.

Also this.

[jjcrpntr]

You need to have tumble on your class skill list AND wear not more than light armor AND carry only a light load AND need to invest skill points.

Only a small subset of characters can use tumble to avoid AoOs. For those, being nimble and darting around the battlefield is probably part of their job description and the desired image. There is no need to remove this option.

You know we had a barbarian doing this for about 6 months and no one noticed he was wearing medium armor until the end.
Then again the DM never noticed he was applying his DR to dmg from stuff like fireballs and falling.

I do agree though that it gets a little insane how easy some of these skill checks become. But that's the game.


Side note but related to this.

Mithral breastplate is medium armor but treated as light for purposes of movement speed. Does that apply to the tumble rules as well? Could someone use tumble to avoid AaO's while wearing a Mithral breastplate? I would say no since it's still medium, it only counts as light for movement purposes.

[LTwerewolf]

Raw it would count for tumble.



Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.

Emphasis mine.

[Deophaun]

Yeah, the mithral breastplate is why light armor is best armor. Really, you're only wearing something heavier if you routinely get close to sharp, pointy objects and yet are incapable of protecting yourself. Of course, if you're wearing something heavier, getting to those sharp, pointy objects before the battle's over can be a problem as well. So, I wouldn't call that a knock on Tumble.

If I had a nickel for every time the full-plate tank arrived to the front a round too late...

[.Zero]

.zero

Your solution doesn't include that characters can purchase skill enhancers pretty cheaply.

At 5th level, anyone interested in tumble will drop between 900gp and 2,500gp for a +3-+5 bonus to tumble.
By 10th, you are looking at 4,900gp for a +7, and 10,000gp at 15th for a +10.

This does put your sliding scale back to what players are use to.

The normal tumble check goes up by +2 for each opponent. Makes it easy to avoid one, but hard to avoid several. Does your planned method increase the DC based on multiple enemies?

My bad for not explicitly say it. My "solution" includes the +2 increase, of course, along with every other modifier listed here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm). Also, it doesn't matter if someone is spending gold and/or other resources in increasing his tumble check. That is a good thing, because if you are interested in tumble and decide to spend on it, it means that you have less gold or resources for other things, even if skill bonuses are cheap. The big problem with 3.5 tumble rules, is that characters don't even need to improve tumble with items or anything at all, and still be able to automatically succeed.


First off, if you want to hit someone who is casting a spell, you ready an action. There's no Concentration check to avoid it, and your damage is likely going to exceed whatever Concentration check is needed to cast the spell successfully. So, this issue we can safely put in the "already resolved in basic rules" category.

Sorry, what's your point? Readying an action is something completely different from making or provoking AoOs! I'm not even talking about readied actions. And if the game features AoOs, you cannot skip that with a readied action, it's like ignoring a part of the game, and i don't want to ignore anything, just try to make a poorly designed mechanic a little better. Casting defensively was designed to provoke AoOs, so it's logical that i included it in my method, and it's not "already resolved in basic rules" for the purpose of provoking and avoiding AoOs.
You're just applying another mechanic trying to solve a different one. And this is clearly meaning that the existing mechanic of avoiding AoOs in not functional.


You need to have tumble on your class skill list
Spending 2 cross class skill ranks is not an issue and every character can afford it.


AND wear not more than light armor
Medium armors made of mithral are your way.


AND carry only a light load
8000 gp for a Belt of the Wide Earth that doubles your carrying capacity and you should be fine.


AND need to invest skill points.
How many? From a minimum of 1 to a maximum of 10 if it's cross class. A few ranks +Dex mod +2Jump synergy +2 masterwork item +X from John Longarrow suggested items +1d20 is far enough to meet a flat 15 DC with a 100% success at very early levels.


This. Tumble and Concentration that are skills that should do something. Skills doing more is good. Skills doing less is bad.
Skills granting automatic success in not being ever ever hit is the worst.


Tumble is a critical part of rogue, monk, and other such class's jobs. They can't hang in melee for too long yet are stuck with no spells and thus expected to mix it up. Being able to flee melee safely, to hit and run with their attacks....these classes DO NOT FUNCTION without easy tumbling. I repeat, THEY DO NOT FUNCTION.
I'm not eliminating tumble, i don't want this to happen. If certain classes are designed to hit and run across the battlefield the can do it even with my method, and the can do it very good in most cases, but they now need to max Tumble and this is a good thing. at lvl 20 a 28 dex rogue can afford a check of 35 with a dice roll of 4 or above. And this is without enhacing tumble with items or magic. A well buid monk with good feat selection can do this in the same manner, a factotum can go over 40 and even a swashbuckler is having a good time.


The current system isn't broken, stop trying to "fix" it.
Stop being conservative! ;) It is broken indeed, because almost any charachter can afford a 15 DC check. Equipment load and armor is not a problem for polymorphing characters. Mithral armored gishes and clerics can do it with no problem.

My group decided to adopt this method is our campaing, and we all think it is well suited. Just try it! ;)

[Deophaun]

Sorry, what's your point? Readying an action is something completely different from making or provoking AoOs! I'm not even talking about readied actions. And if the game features AoOs, you cannot skip that with a readied action, it's like ignoring a part of the game, and i don't want to ignore anything, just try to make a poorly designed mechanic a little better. Casting defensively was designed to provoke AoOs, so it's logical that i included it in my method, and it's not "already resolved in basic rules" for the purpose of provoking and avoiding AoOs.
You're just applying another mechanic trying to solve a different one. And this is clearly meaning that the existing mechanic of avoiding AoOs in not functional.
The point is that AoOs were never meant to be a show-stopper for casters. Even if you did this, abrupt jaunt is a thing. All that this does is say that you shouldn't be a gish. Horray for encouraging more god-wizards.

Spending 2 cross class skill ranks is not an issue and every character can afford it.
Like the Fighter with Int as a dump... oh wait.

How many? From a minimum of 1 to a maximum of 10 if it's cross class. A few ranks +Dex mod +2Jump synergy +2 masterwork item +X from John Longarrow suggested items +1d20 is far enough to meet a flat 15 DC with a 100% success at very early levels.
Add 2 to the DC of every enemy beyond the first. Add 10 to do it at full speed.

Skills granting automatic success in not being ever ever hit is the worst.
Really? So if a Hydra comes up to a fighter and full attacks, somehow Tumble prevents him from being hit?

I have an idea: get rid of that crazy houserule, and your problem will go away as well.

I'm not eliminating tumble, i don't want this to happen.
Good. So scrap everything you've written, and leave as-is. Tumble exists for the same reason pounce exists: to make the battlefield fluid. But if you want a static battlefield, may I suggest another system? (http://www.amazon.com/Rock-Em-Sock-ROBOTS-Game/dp/B00005BY8V/ref=sr_1_1?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1398622516&sr=1-1&keywords=rock%27em+sock%27em+robots)

[.Zero]

I really don't get why your so aggressive. What's wrong? However...


Even if you did this, abrupt jaunt is a thing. All that this does is say that you shouldn't be a gish. Horray for encouraging more god-wizards.
Again, what's your point? Abrupt Jaunt is a well known button as is celerity, but, again, why mentioning these things in an AoO thread? And i'm absolutely not incouraging god-wizards, that was an assuption of yours.


Like the Fighter with Int as a dump... oh wait.
And this is where your argumentstions start to fall.
Even Ubercharger (http://web.archive.org/web/20080214233419/forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=401662) has Int of 14, just like every single tripper lockdown build. You may have problems with the Wolf Totem Barbarian route, but, hey, even if you have an Int of 6, you still get 2 skill points every level, which are enough to grant you tumble as cross class skill. And this is without involving x4 multiplier at 1st level. And if you're playing a 6 Int fighter20, it does mean that you are definetely not a skillded charachter and either you're unoptimized or you really don't need to tumble because you're dishing out hundreds and hundreds of damage so no one will survive and make an AoO to you. Also there are plenty of ways to enchance tumble checks or to make tumble a class skill.


Add 2 to the DC of every enemy beyond the first. Add 10 to do it at full speed.
And what's wrong with these? Mmh... so if try to past through the threatened areas of two enemies the 3.5 tumble DC increases to... 19! OMG that's too much!, seriously, that's not even an issue, i don't understand how can you say that the current system is balanced. The +10 DC for tumbling at full speed is really resonable, but with 3.5, almost every charachter can do that, with my method just skillded charachters can afford that DC. And this is damned flavourful and mechanically well done.
It seems to me that you all didn't get that with my method (and considering how easy is enhancing a skill check) skilled charachters are not penalized at all! I made it just to prevent all those charachter wich are not supposed or designed to tumble, to, well, tumble!
And you really need to try it and you'll see how it works. I'm not claiming my system is perfect, but it's working fine so far.


Really? So if a Hydra comes up to a fighter and full attacks, somehow Tumble prevents him from being hit?
Again, we're talking about AoOs, just try to not decontextualize. It helps, sometimes.


But if you want a static battlefield, may I suggest another system? (http://www.amazon.com/Rock-Em-Sock-ROBOTS-Game/dp/B00005BY8V/ref=sr_1_1?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1398622516&sr=1-1&keywords=rock%27em+sock%27em+robots)
Well, it was a very funny game of my childhood ;)
And please, stop flaming.

[Toliudar]

Okay, to attempt to answer the questions at the end of the OP:

Now, what do you think?
.Zero doesn't like the fact that a moderate investment in the tumble skill and movement speed gets you out of most melee engagements (at least briefly) after about level 10. Other posters see this as a feature, not a bug. I'm with them.

How do you feel about my concept fluff?
I saw this as an effort to change the mechanics, not the style, of combat. As others have commented, adding in an additional mechanic that makes it harder for people to do something that we think that they should be able to do is not likely to be appealing.

.Zero, did you have any other questions?

[Snowbluff]

Again, what's your point? Abrupt Jaunt is a well known button as is celerity, but, again, why mentioning these things in an AoO thread? And i'm absolutely not incouraging god-wizards, that was an assuption of yours.


The fact of the matter is that you're only screwing less powerful and better balanced classes to needlessly inconvenience a class that could get around your houserule. This is about as masturbatory as it gets.

[John Longarrow]

.zero,

From the mechanics you have, those who want to automatically pass a tumble check will. For most this won't be much of an issue or even an investment in resources by the time your rules make the DCs higher than normal.

As is, to get the 15, you'd have to face something with a BAB of 3, Dex of 14, and Int of 10. That should be a CR 3.

For CR 3 I can have 4 goblins.

DC 15 for 1st, 17 for 2nd, 19, for 3rd, 21 for 4th.

If you want to raise the DC to be 21, you'd need a BAB of 7, dex 16 and Int 14. Sounds like a CR 5 at least.


From what I gather, your group normally deals with single enemies instead of groups. IF this is the case, toss a few mook enemies around to increase the DC. You'll get a higher DC quickly.

As I understand, AoOs are not supposed to be a big impact if you are facing a single enemy. They are supposed to become relevant when you are trying to run past several enemies to get to the ONE important enemy OR come to help an ally. For this they work very well.

[Bakkan]

It seems to me that you all didn't get that with my method (and considering how easy is enhancing a skill check) skilled charachters are not penalized at all! I made it just to prevent all those charachter wich are not supposed or designed to tumble, to, well, tumble!

I haven't tested your mechanics so I cannot comment on them. I do, however, disagree with the philosophy stated in this quote. Restricting mechanics to those classes or archetypes which are "supposed" to have them creates a less diverse and interesting design space in which to create characters. I don't like the idea of every character either being a "tumbler" or a "non-tumbler". In short, I don't think the mechanics should a priori prevent any character concept from doing anything.

[Lightlawbliss]

First, It sounds to me like your group ignores terrain penalties to tumble.

second: there are ways to make concentration checks much harder inside the current rules.

[Deaxsa]

I, personally, house rule that every successive tumble increases the dc by 5, not 2. So if you need to make like, 4 checks, that's dcs 15/20/25/30, even if you fail some of them. Also, remember that they move at half speed while tumbling, a character attempting to do what I suggested would have to have a base move speed of forty to do it in one action, or the dc flies up by ten. Additionally, knights are a bane to tumblers: vigilant defender and bulwark of defense will pump a dc by at least 7, maybe 10, depending on your dm(for the record, and I think this was an accident, but we play where bulwark of defense applies anytime they are in a threatened square). Make the people fight a few of those, and as long as the knights are above level 5, the tumbling gets painful. Especially if they're wielding reach weapons.

[.Zero]

I saw this as an effort to change the mechanics, not the style, of combat. As others have commented, adding in an additional mechanic that makes it harder for people to do something that we think that they should be able to do is not likely to be appealing.
Well, i don't feel like i am able to change 3.5 style, also i think it is not quite possible, unless someone changes 3.5 at all. All i could do was trying to apply 3.5 "way of handling DCs" to tumble DC too.


The fact of the matter is that you're only screwing less powerful and better balanced classes to needlessly inconvenience a class that could get around your houserule. This is about as masturbatory as it gets.
You got it.


.zero,

From the mechanics you have, those who want to automatically pass a tumble check will. For most this won't be much of an issue or even an investment in resources by the time your rules make the DCs higher than normal.

As is, to get the 15, you'd have to face something with a BAB of 3, Dex of 14, and Int of 10. That should be a CR 3.

For CR 3 I can have 4 goblins.

DC 15 for 1st, 17 for 2nd, 19, for 3rd, 21 for 4th.
Well with my method goblins like this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) will result in DCs of 12, 14, 16, 18. They are lower than 3.5 tumble DCs, but i gave them a reason to be low, and that's because those goblins are very weak combatants.


As I understand, AoOs are not supposed to be a big impact if you are facing a single enemy. They are supposed to become relevant when you are trying to run past several enemies to get to the ONE important enemy OR come to help an ally. For this they work very well.
This is the crucial part of it all. Moving freely across the battlefield is a BIG advantage to anyone, and i don't like how easy is for anyone to directly go face to face with the BBEG without caring about his mooks and the like. So i tried to resonably high the actual DC. The result is that those who invest in tumble have no problem. In 3.5 just anything can reach a DC 15. Even the Tarrasque could avoid an entire party's AoOs. And things like gigantic, slow, and stupid beings which are able to to such things just scares me. My method does not stop a caster, though, but, ya know, he's god-wizard-almighty.

However, i see this whole stuff is based on our different feelings on tumble and its impact on combat. I admit that i was impressed that i received only negative feedback about this. We have different ideas, and, well, peace to you!

[John Longarrow]

.zero,

Rather than change how tumble works, as you want to avoid
how easy is for anyone to directly go face to face with the BBEG without caring about his mooks I would look at how you are using said mooks to defend the BBEG.

You are right, this may be a difference in how combat works at our tables. When I run encounters, I use tactics and strategy for the BBEG to limit what the players can do. As such, I have never had a problem with players being able to use tumble in an abusive manner.

[Lightlawbliss]

...
This is the crucial part of it all. Moving freely across the battlefield is a BIG advantage to anyone, and i don't like how easy is for anyone to directly go face to face with the BBEG without caring about his mooks and the like. So i tried to resonably high the actual DC. The result is that those who invest in tumble have no problem. ...

eather you are not using the actual dc or the mooks are really spread out
this is one way to place 25 minions in a 25x50 area between the bbeg and the players.


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this has the advantage of making tumble dcs scary high and disadvantage of aoe playground.

[John Longarrow]

Lightlawbliss

The following is also good for protecting the BBEG...
Each pair of mooks that are next to each other have the one in front using a tower shield and the one behind using a reach weapon. Makes tumbling past/through VERY PAINFUL.
Toss in a BBEG with either a ranged attack of the ability to cast AOE and you get lots of hurt.



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[Arc_knight25]

Just from my quick scan I didn't see anyone mention the Pathfinder way.

So for Concentration, they made the check Casting stat + CL

Then they made casting defensively DC 15+ double spell level.


For Tumble they lumped it into the Acrobatics skill. So its an Acrobatics check against the creatures CMD(Combat Maneuver Defense) which is 10+BAB+Str mod+Dex mod+Size mod+Misc mod

So in Pathfinder low level Concentration checks are tougher then higher levels from what I noticed. As for Tumble I noticed that it was a lot harder early and late game to use it. Anything that was large or had more then 2 legs seemed really hard to successfully tumble past.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Just from my quick scan I didn't see anyone mention the Pathfinder way...

*Cough* "Ahem...."


Tumble is a critical part of rogue, monk, and other such class's jobs. They can't hang in melee for too long yet are stuck with no spells and thus expected to mix it up. Being able to flee melee safely, to hit and run with their attacks....these classes DO NOT FUNCTION without easy tumbling. I repeat, THEY DO NOT FUNCTION.

Pathfinder went the route you did, basically. Tumble is suicide in PF. And monks are an even crappier class (I didn't think it was possible). And Rogue went from one of the best noncasters to squabbling with monk over who sucks more. Tumble was only one of the reasons, but it was a pretty significant one. The current system isn't broken, stop trying to "fix" it.

And the PF change to concentration sucks, too. It's basically free skill points to casters, and it manages to even FURTHER hose "gish" builds that lose some caster levels to make a hybrid character, as in 3E he could at least top off his concentration ranks but in PF, his CL is hard-coded to be lower. By the way, guess what type of caster needs to make cast defensively checks the most often.

[jamesb]

0) Unless you're in close quarters...five foot step against anyone without above average reach already has you outside aoo range.

1) bab + Dex + 1/2 int (*2 if negative) is too complicated...not worth slowing down game with calculations

2) There's items and abilities that allow you to avoid aoo, that can take less investment with some gold.

3) Tumble is also meant to scale up to avoid multiple enemies and position for flanking

4) Mages should have something they can do when they are cornered against the ropes. Personally I'd house rule still spells don't provoke aoo before changing tumble rules.

5) How about melee players have to invest to get the mages against the ropes with Mage Slayer and such?