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moes247
2007-02-09, 05:13 PM
Ok, my DM wanted to start and epic level adventure, so were all starting off at 20th lvl. Iam kinda skittish about this since I rather build a charater up that far but Iam not the DM and it would take forever. More fun I think. But anyways Iam going to be the Wizard of the group. Right now Iam think of this build...

5th lvl Invoker, 10th lvl Red Wizard, and 5th lvl Arcmage.

Is this a valid build?

Feat wise Iam thinking of takeing Energy Substitution to help deal with restiance problems we encounter on the way. Along with the other standard meta feats, quicken, silent, etc.

Any help would be helpful, cause there are so many combos for wizard I just went with the straight big fireing platform of doom as I call it. Thanks for any imput.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-09, 05:15 PM
Ok, my DM wanted to start and epic level adventure, so were all starting off at 20th lvl. Iam kinda skittish about this since I rather build a charater up that far but Iam not the DM and it would take forever. More fun I think. But anyways Iam going to be the Wizard of the group. Right now Iam think of this build...

5th lvl Invoker, 10th lvl Red Wizard, and 5th lvl Arcmage.

Is this a valid build?

Feat wise Iam thinking of takeing Energy Substitution to help deal with restiance problems we encounter on the way. Along with the other standard meta feats, quicken, silent, etc.

Any help would be helpful, cause there are so many combos for wizard I just went with the straight big fireing platform of doom as I call it. Thanks for any imput.

Maximize is a good choice. At that level a item creation feat would be good also to outfit you and the party with nice items.

oriong
2007-02-09, 05:19 PM
If you're going for the 'firing platform' (which you will be shortly told is a bad idea, trust me it will happen) then you're better off going sorcerer since you'll need the extra spells/day in order to make simply handing out damage decent, wizards need to pack a lot more into a single spell since they get so few so focusing on just raw damage is often not a good idea.

EDIT: especially since you're going as an archmage, the high level spell slot costs can hurt a wizard a lot more than a sorcerer. In fact, I'd say archmages are designed a lot better for sorcerers than for wizards.

Zincorium
2007-02-09, 05:30 PM
'Cause it's gonna be said anyway, save-or-die/be-screwed spells are going to be more effective in almost all situations than straight damage. That said, you don't need to go the most optimal route to have a significantly powerful character here.

There are a few things to remember, namely that pretty much everyone else except a druid or cleric will be depending on you for their survival, whether they realize it or not. Read all the spell descriptions of the spells you can cast, there's almost a 100% chance that there will be something there you'll find useful later.

Lastly, quicken. Yeah, it uses a higher level slot, but it'll allow you to use more spells in a given time if neccessary. Get it in a rod at the very least.

Tormsskull
2007-02-09, 05:33 PM
Are you guys playing hack n slash or RP? Man, I'd hate to have to come up with a backstory for a level 20 character created @ level 20.

V: You'd be a level 20 Fighter? Now I know you're full of it.

Rigeld2
2007-02-09, 05:48 PM
Are you guys playing hack n slash or RP? Man, I'd hate to have to come up with a backstory for a level 20 character created @ level 20.
I wouldnt. Id be a Fighter who single handedly slew multiple dragons, liches, etc (or at least.... thats what the bards sing about him. ><)

oriong
2007-02-09, 06:20 PM
Part of the problem isn't really that Save or Die or Save or X spells are so great, often they take multiple castings and eat up a whole lot of spell slots or have no effect at all. The real issue is that the vast majority of damage spells are simply bad, most of them have had their damage dice reduced or otherwise been nerfed from the old editions and just don't perform very well, forcing wizards and sorcerers to rely on the 'save or' stuff.

A Finger of Death spell heightened to 9th level takes 2 or even 3 castings on average to take out creatures in the CR 20 range (much worse if the creature is actually equipped with it's treasure rather than guarding it). But a maximized Chain Lightning is only slightly less likely to have it's save failed and even if it suceeds it only inflicts 120 damage, which is about 1/3rd the average hit points of CR 18-21 creatures. So it'll take just as many castings of chain lighting to take down these creatures if they somehow fail every save. Far more likely is that you'll need 6 of them.

A meteor Swarm will manage a bit better, it only inflicts 112 damage on average but at the very least it doesn't let a saving throw get in the way. Unfortunately it's heavy on collatoral damage for what is basically a single-target spell (or an inferior multi-target spell), and still requires a Rod of Maximize to get above the save or spells in effectiveness.

The essentail problem of most direct damage spells is that they seem to use 'affecting multiple targets' as a substitute for usefulness. A blaster is quite good at handling many weak enemies, but these actually represent a very small portion of potential encounters. The vast majority of D+D encounters are geared towards one or two powerful opponents. You will almost never fight more than half-a-dozen enemies at once, and if you do they're typically two weak to be worth the effort of a spell.

There are some good direct damage spells, ones that do beat out the save or spells in terms of utility, but the majority of them died in the 3.5 shift.

Some examples of good direct damage spells:

Disintigrate
Orb Spells (get these, these will make a blaster caster)
Meteor Swarm (has problems, but at least it's reliable)
Polar Ray (another with no save, still bad damage for it's level)
Scorching Ray (Also no save, and with enough metamagic it becomes better than most other damage spells.)

cupkeyk
2007-02-10, 12:22 PM
Uhm Sorcs do not qualify for Red Wizards since they must be specialists. Although Tattoo Focus is an awesome feat the prestige class Red Wizard isn't. Dip into it but you are better off with the master specialist from Complete Mage. Circle Leader is only helpful if you will teleport home and have your twenty apprentices buff you up, everyday.

Archmage is good but the prereqs are heavy and you might not want five levels of it either since you will only want two or three high arcana abilities anyway.

Oh and Evoc sucks.

moes247
2007-02-11, 01:01 AM
We are actually doing RP with Hack and Slash and we do have to make up a backstory and such. Thx for the advise so far people.

Kyrsis
2007-02-11, 01:14 AM
I don't have a DMG handy, but doesn't the High Arcana version of Energy Sub. work the same way as the feat? You could just take that rather than use up a feat.

Douglas
2007-02-11, 05:40 AM
If you're going Archmage, Energy Substitution is a waste of a feat. The Mastery of Elements Archmage High Arcana doesn't take a feat, gives you all five energy types, and can be applied spontaneously even if you're a wizard.