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Cowboy_ninja
2007-02-09, 07:05 PM
threw some crazy multi classing i got DR 4/magic 2/adamantine 1/-

the SRD says something like "use the best DR for the situation" so if i get hit with a typical weapon i only have DR 4?

oriong
2007-02-09, 07:08 PM
Right.

Against a magical weapon you'd have DR 2

Against a magical adamantine weapon you'd have DR 1.

Cowboy_ninja
2007-02-09, 07:14 PM
Im trying to make a melee character who primarily can take a lot of dmg. secondly dish it out

anyone got any useful builds?

i've been looking at:
-tattooed monk ( crab tattoo)
-variants with barbarian (unearthed arcana replaces monk AC with barb DR)
-the green star adept (complete arcane)

something with regenerattion or self healing would be cool too. something like dread necro ( DR and heal with negative energy) only not so.... necro

any tips?

Dhavaer
2007-02-09, 07:27 PM
The King of Smack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=227556).

Cowboy_ninja
2007-02-09, 07:44 PM
threw some crazy multi classing i got DR 4/magic 2/adamantine 1/-

the SRD says something like "use the best DR for the situation" so if i get hit with a typical weapon i only have DR 4?

What if i get DR 2/magic from say tattoo monk and 1/magic from dragon shaman? then do they stack?

Dhavaer
2007-02-09, 07:46 PM
No, they don't.

silentknight
2007-02-09, 07:59 PM
What level is your character?

Cowboy_ninja
2007-02-09, 08:18 PM
What level is your character?

none in particular im trying to come up with a build high in DR thats not totally hacked like pun pun

oriong
2007-02-09, 08:20 PM
Well, are we talking simply DR or useful DR, extremely high DR/Magic is easy to come by, because it's not actually worth that much, but if you're talking about DR/substance, DR/alignment, or DR/- it'll be a different issue.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-09, 09:38 PM
After reading The King of Smack, I'm thinking you shouldn't just focus on dr; try to get some regeneration/fast healing in there, a concealment bonus, and some vampiric abilities to get hit points back when you dish out damage. So probably psychic warrior is the way to go, and we just have to pick the right race/template.

Cowboy_ninja
2007-02-09, 11:09 PM
Well, are we talking simply DR or useful DR, extremely high DR/Magic is easy to come by, because it's not actually worth that much, but if you're talking about DR/substance, DR/alignment, or DR/- it'll be a different issue.

Useful DR. i figured that also magic DR is easily negated..... im thinkging just go with a combat oriented greenstar adept. the tiny bit of spells i get from that should help with the healing self.

what ya think?

this is off topic but does anyone know of a way to make a greatsword a monk weapon?

Rigeld2
2007-02-09, 11:16 PM
Is Savage Species allowed? (for the DR question)

Cowboy_ninja
2007-02-09, 11:22 PM
Is Savage Species allowed? (for the DR question)

nah i dont think my DM would allow it so for the sake of not trying to DM beg lets stya away from that one try to stick to the races, completes, PHB I/II, DMG I/II

Zincorium
2007-02-09, 11:22 PM
Useful DR. i figured that also magic DR is easily negated..... im thinkging just go with a combat oriented greenstar adept. the tiny bit of spells i get from that should help with the healing self.

what ya think?

this is off topic but does anyone know of a way to make a greatsword a monk weapon?

If you can use forgotten realms material, Mineral Warrior is one of the best templates around. +1 LA for DR 8/adamantine among other things. It's in the Underdark book.

As for the monk question, no. Eberron will allow you to take feats to add the longsword, two bladed sword or spear to your repertoire of monk weapons, however.

oriong
2007-02-10, 12:12 AM
This is stretching it, but the martyred champion of ilmater gets DR 15/evil as a capstone ability, but it's both Forgotten Realms and Exalted, so that's probably a no go except as a purely theoretical build. Also, alignment based DR isn't great.


This is far from an optimal build, but if your goal is the highest DR possible (Without LA or other such issues) then get into greenstar adept at 5th level, take it all the way to 10th, and then take the rest of your levels as you like. From 6th level on take every feat you get as the Greater Resiliency Feat (that should be 5 in all) by the end you'll have DR 15/adamantium. Unfortunately Greater Resiliency isn't a fighter bonus feat so it's no good to you. Obviously if you go into the Epic region then switch back to greenstar adept. Like I said, definitely not optimal and maybe not the best DR possible.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-10, 12:26 AM
Well, there's several things you can do:

Psionic Warrior is not hampered in the slightest by heavy armor. So get something heavy armor and Adamantine. There's DR 3/- for +10k or so.

Then, while you're a Psionic Warrior, you can manifest Biofeedback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/biofeedback.htm). Now, the fun thing about this power is that it scales. For the first power point you spend, it gives you DR 2/-, which stacks with the DR 3/- because it's the same type. For every additional three power points, it gives an additional +1 to your DR/-.

Right, now let's look at some other things to do:

Inertial Barrier (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialBarrier.htm) Gives you another 5/-, and cuts falling damage in half. It's a 4th level power, though, so you'll need 10 levels of PsiWar to be able to manifest it. This is not inconcievable, though.

So let's look at a level 20 build:

Half Giant PsiWar10/Slayer9

Check out the thread on D&D glitches and powerbuilds. I've posted something similar to this, only with Pyro levels for some extra goodies. Slayer continues manifester progression, and has full BAB, which is even better than PsiWar. So you can do the whole power attack/leaping charge/shock trooper cheeze AND the whole spiked chain tripping cheeze AND end up with a DR of more than 10/-. Sounds like a win/win to me.

Edit: Oh, almost forgot. While you're doing this, you can also pick up Body Adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyAdjustment.htm) for self healing, Empathic Transfer, Hostile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransferHostile.htm) to not only heal, but inflict that damage to your opponent, and let's not forget Vampiric Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vampiricBlade.htm) to heal half the damage you dish out. So even if you do get hurt, you have ways of fixing yourself.

oriong
2007-02-10, 12:29 AM
I'm fairly certain DR of the same type does not stack, every source of DR is treated individually, none of them will ever stack. I could be mistaken but I don't believe so.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-10, 01:20 AM
DR of the same type never stacks unless the ability giving the DR specifically states that it stacks.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-10, 02:13 AM
That's odd... I was sure DR/- stacked with itself, just not with other forms of DR...

Oh well, you can still get some fairly nasty DR/- from augmenting Biofeedback. At manifester level 20, you can get DR 8/- from that alone.

Also, if you're wanting to be "Mr. No', you want some form of negating crits and sneak attacks. So make sure to slap Heavy Fortification onto your armor.

TheOOB
2007-02-10, 03:17 AM
Usually it is far better to outright avoid damage then to improve your ability to take it. I'd much rather have an insanly high AC and no DR then a high DR and only moderatly high AC. You see, with a high AC you increase your change to avoid any attack, no matter how much damage it deals. On the same token a high DR is good agienst an opponent who makes lots of weak attacks, but agienst an opponent who deals lots of damage in a single attack it's not that useful.

Case in point, lets say your fighting an opponent who deals 100 damage per an attack, and has a +20 attack bonus. You have the choice between 25 AC and DR 10/-, or 30 AC. Using simple (inpercise) math, and not taking into account criticals, you gain the following results

25 AC + DR 10/- = 75% chance to hit for 90 damage = 67.5 damage per round

30 AC = 50% chance to hit for 100 damage = 50 damage per round

In said case even though you only gained half as much AC, you ended up taking 17.5 hp less damage every turn. If I counted criticals it would be even worse as AC helps to mitigate the effects of criticals while DR doesn't.

So that said, really all you need to be a defensive juggernaught is a high AC (either through armor/shields, insane dex, or class abilities), and high saves (a low save will kill you faster then a low AC). A high hp doesn't hurt either, but remember thats it's more important to take less damage to be able to take more, you waste less healing spells that way.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-10, 05:02 PM
Usually it is far better to outright avoid damage then to improve your ability to take it. I'd much rather have an insanly high AC and no DR then a high DR and only moderatly high AC. You see, with a high AC you increase your change to avoid any attack, no matter how much damage it deals. On the same token a high DR is good agienst an opponent who makes lots of weak attacks, but agienst an opponent who deals lots of damage in a single attack it's not that useful.

Case in point, lets say your fighting an opponent who deals 100 damage per an attack, and has a +20 attack bonus. You have the choice between 25 AC and DR 10/-, or 30 AC. Using simple (inpercise) math, and not taking into account criticals, you gain the following results

25 AC + DR 10/- = 75% chance to hit for 90 damage = 67.5 damage per round

30 AC = 50% chance to hit for 100 damage = 50 damage per round

In said case even though you only gained half as much AC, you ended up taking 17.5 hp less damage every turn. If I counted criticals it would be even worse as AC helps to mitigate the effects of criticals while DR doesn't.

So that said, really all you need to be a defensive juggernaught is a high AC (either through armor/shields, insane dex, or class abilities), and high saves (a low save will kill you faster then a low AC). A high hp doesn't hurt either, but remember thats it's more important to take less damage to be able to take more, you waste less healing spells that way.

That may as well be, however there are times when you want to get hit, such as the Karmic Strike/Combat Reflexes combo when combined with Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leaping Charge cheeze to drop your AC way the heck low.

In such instances, a high DR can mitigate much or even all of the damage taken, and you still get a shot at the guy who hit you.

And for all the damage you are taking, there's always Empathic Transfer, Hostile... return to sender, postage due :smallbiggrin:

I do agree that Saves are extremely important. My Powerbuild listed has Cerebral Immunity, for a flat immunity to all mind-affecting stuff, since he's a tank type he's got insane Fort already, and has Evasion Burst power to manifest if he gets hit by AoE to negate it completely.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-10, 11:41 PM
I posted some a while back. I don't recall the thread, so here's off the top of my head:

Mineral Warrior(Underdark): DR X/adamantine, Natural Armour, LA+1
Woodling(MM3): DR X/slashing, LA+3, Natural Armour+7(!), plenty of other stuff(mostly Druidic SLAs)
Half-Fey(Fiend Folio): DR X/Cold Iron, LA+3, best Maneouvrability(Good) flight available from practically any template, more SLAs(charm based types).
Were-creature: DR X/Silver. Massive LA if you include the animal HD into the calculation.

I think that's most of the lowest level adjusted ones available.

Kantolin
2007-02-10, 11:54 PM
Also, if you're wanting to be "Mr. No', you want some form of negating crits and sneak attacks. So make sure to slap Heavy Fortification onto your armor.

Or a cloak of blur or anything that prompts concealment. Auto-solves Sneak attacking at least, with the added bonus of the miss chance.


At manifester level 20, you can get DR 8/- from that alone

Or alternately, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm. Not quite /- (as it's /evil or good), but that's a much more swift pop that ends up becoming 9/Evil.

Man, is there anything Clerics can't do?

Ramza00
2007-02-11, 12:22 AM
Scroll down for damage reduction http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=662842

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-11, 12:31 AM
Or a cloak of blur or anything that prompts concealment. Auto-solves Sneak attacking at least, with the added bonus of the miss chance.

Or they come out with Improved Precise Shot, a level dip in Sorcerer to get True Strike, or True Sight, or any other thousand ways of negating concealment. Also, concealment doesn't negate crits, only sneak attacks.




Or alternately, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm. Not quite /- (as it's /evil or good), but that's a much more swift pop that ends up becoming 9/Evil.

Man, is there anything Clerics can't do?Right, but look at target... Self Only. Unless you're going to do the DMM Persist cheeze, this isn't going to be on the party tank. If he is, then there's no point to a party tank, or even a party, because they would only slow him down.

Kantolin
2007-02-11, 12:39 AM
Or they come out with Improved Precise Shot, a level dip in Sorcerer to get True Strike, or any other thousand ways of negating concealment.

Hey, if you're staring at a rogue, and they spend a turn casting true strike so they can sneak attack you... you smash their face in. And Displacement, I believe, trumps Improved Precise Shot. But Blur is plenty for the majority of sneaks, and costs a heck of a lot less than the +5 for heavy fortification.

Now, if they were a power-attacker type, they could seriously do you some harm. But eh.


Also, concealment doesn't negate crits, only sneak attacks.

Yeah, I mentioned this. Of course, critical hits doesn't bother me insomuch, as they don't come up terribly often (Maybe if you fight hoards and hoards of keen rapier weilders?). But you still have the concealment chance of having the attack completely miss you. *Shrug* For much, much cheaper.


Right, but look at target... Self Only. Unless you're going to do the DMM Persist cheeze, this isn't going to be on the party tank.

Uh? A Cleric makes a very very good party tank. Full armour, plenty of hit points, divine favor? Spend a single round casting Righteous Might and you're good to go.

So the suggestion to the opening question, which was:


Im trying to make a melee character who primarily can take a lot of dmg. secondly dish it out

Is, well, 'be a cleric'.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-11, 12:58 AM
Hey, if you're staring at a rogue, and they spend a turn casting true strike so they can sneak attack you... you smash their face in. And Displacement, I believe, trumps Improved Precise Shot. But Blur is plenty for the majority of sneaks, and costs a heck of a lot less than the +5 for heavy fortification.

Displacement gives you a concealment bonus. Improved Precise Shot negates concealment bonus. Sounds like it negates it to me. And if they're able to make you eligable for Sneak Attack... you wouldn't BE looking at them. At the very least, you'd be denied dex bonus to AC, or flanked. So are you going to turn around and smite the rogue, and eat the full attack from his tank buddy? Or if he has you flat-footed, you wouldn't comprehend until after you just got sneak attacked for ZOMG damage.


Now, if they were a power-attacker type, they could seriously do you some harm. But eh.

Got that backwards, bucko. At level 20 (let's just say), a full BAB guy could do an additional 20 damage. The rogue could do +10d6. Umm... yea, I'd rather eat the PA, thanks anyways.



Yeah, I mentioned this. Of course, critical hits doesn't bother me insomuch, as they don't come up terribly often (Maybe if you fight hoards and hoards of keen rapier weilders?). But you still have the concealment chance of having the attack completely miss you. *Shrug* For much, much cheaper.
Crits still hurt, particularly when that charging PAing barbarian manages to roll a nat 20 on you with his Greataxe then follow it up with a confirmation. Does it come up often? Not really. Does it hurt when it does? You betcha.




Uh? A Cleric makes a very very good party tank. Full armour, plenty of hit points, divine favor? Spend a single round casting Righteous Might and you're good to go.

Every single fight? You must have a lot of those in memory.



Is, well, 'be a cleric'.

Or even better, be a druid. Then you can do all this, while being a dire bear, and still casting. But that isn't the point of the topic. We all know how broken CoDzilla is.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-11, 01:13 AM
Got that backwards, bucko. At level 20 (let's just say), a full BAB guy could do an additional 20 damage. The rogue could do +10d6. Umm... yea, I'd rather eat the PA, thanks anyways.

You've got that backwards. If he's going for Full BAB Power Attack, it's easily +30 damage for a 2-handed weapon, or +40-60 if he's going fancy with Leap Attack and/or Frenzied Berserker. Multipliable on a critical. Each d6 averages to 3.5(1+6=7, divide by 2), for 35 on 10d6, not multipliable on a critical.

Ramza00
2007-02-11, 01:14 AM
A full bab power attacker can sack 20 BAB at lvl 20 for 20 extra damage with a one handed weapon. With a two handed weapon that is 40 damage.

A rogue does 10d6 damage which equals on average 35 damage.

Now the fighter has some other advantages an additional attack, more points in strength (thus recouping the lower attack bonus due to power attack), better feats that change the power attack ratio (leap attack, shock trooper, frenzied beserker, favored power attack and combat brute if ranger) yielding more damage, able to do this power attack on all enemies and combat situations. I can go on.

Not to say rogue isn't a good base class, it is. It shines for its a good "generalist" a jack of all trades, who is great at some combat situations, some magic through umd, is stealthy and excels at non combat situations.

Just at combat other classes do it better.

Kantolin
2007-02-11, 01:14 AM
Displacement gives you a concealment bonus. Improved Precise Shot negates concealment bonus. Sounds like it negates it to me.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot

To quote the relevant line:
Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#totalCover),

Emphasis mine.


Got that backwards, bucko. At level 20 (let's just say), a full BAB guy could do an additional 20 damage. The rogue could do +10d6. Umm... yea, I'd rather eat the PA, thanks anyways.
Um. If he power attacks for 20, that'd do 40 damage. Two-handed weapons, yo, not to mention that someone using power attack is increasingly more likely to have a high strength compared to your average rogue. 10d6 is on average 35.


Does it come up often? Not really. Does it hurt when it does? You betcha.
I suppose this is true. Simultaneously, is that worth paying for a +5 bonus to your armour? I mean, the cloak will come up every swing, while the +5 bonus will come up far less frequently and likely costs you more.


Every single fight? You must have a lot of those in memory.

1) The comparison was against a psionic power which granted damage reduction. My suggestion was that a PHB cleric can use a 5th level spell to obtain a very similar effect, and thus may work more effectively.

2) Possibly not every fight. But probably for most of them. Certainly for the hard ones.



Or even better, be a druid. Then you can do all this, while being a dire bear, and still casting. But that isn't the point of the topic. We all know how broken CoDzilla is.

Um. The point of the topic is, and I quote:


Im trying to make a melee character who primarily can take a lot of dmg. secondly dish it out

anyone got any useful builds?

(Actually, the first post was asking how Damage Reduction worked, and then Cowboy Ninja asked the above question in post 3 after his first question was answered).

The general theme he seemed to be looking for was damage reduction. You stated 'You can get damage reduction 8 by manifesting this particular power'.

My reponse was basically, 'Another option is to be a cleric, which can get damage reduction 9 by casting this particular spell'.

I fail to see how that doesn't address the topic. A cleric can easily fulfill the roll of "a melee character who primarily can take a lot of dmg. secondly dish it out", and as he was going for damage reduction, I pointed to Righteous Might.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-11, 01:47 AM
So if a Cleric can tank better than a Tank, can heal, and in general, do everything any other class can.... better... then why play anything BUT a cleric?

Kantolin
2007-02-11, 02:00 AM
So if a Cleric can tank better than a Tank, can heal, and in general, do everything any other class can.... better... then why play anything BUT a cleric?

Um.

I also at no point implied that his only option was Cleric, any more than you implied that his only option was Psychic Warrior. I also didn't say it was the best or even replaced the psychic warrior option, as I did point out that the DR from righteous might is /good or /evil, and not /- the way the psionic power is.

He just asked for a capable melee fighter who can take hits and dish them out (with a focus on DR), and a Cleric can do that. A psychic warrior gets you slightly less DR, but nothing bypasses it unlike the Cleric's option.

Yeesh. I didn't say nor imply 'Why play anything but a cleric', nor did I even state it was the best option, just that it was an option.

Rigeld2
2007-02-11, 12:21 PM
So if a Cleric can tank better than a Tank, can heal, and in general, do everything any other class can.... better... then why play anything BUT a cleric?
Have you even read half of the threads around here?