Would Serini Toormuck still be alive?

[Lordfiscus]

Would Serini Toormuck be the last living member of the Order Of The Scribble by the time the Order Of The Stick gets to the 5th gate? Halfling lifespans are slightly longer than that of a human, so she MIGHT be alive, but just barely.

[jidasfire]

I've gone back and forth a lot on the living status of Serini. On the one hand, it would make sense for her to still be alive because she's a link to the past that the heroes desperately need to understand what's going on. Plus, no other members of the Order of the Scribble still live, and she seems to have been the most reasonable of the bunch, so her perspective on the events, should they be delivered, would be perhaps less biased. On the other hand, Xykon has her diary, and she doesn't seem to have gone out of her way to have warned the others after that happened, which suggests the lich may well have killed her. On yet another hand, she's an epic rogue, and if anyone could get away from Xykon, she could, but then, where would she go?

So yeah, she could be, but no clue if she is.

[Lordfiscus]

Well, if Xykon has gotten to Serini's Gate, she might be hiding somewhere in the tomb she built for Kraagor.

[NerdyKris]

Well, if Xykon has gotten to Serini's Gate, she might be hiding somewhere in the tomb she built for Kraagor.

Serini's gate is Kraagor's gate. There were only five gates and five members not including Kraagor.

It's possible she could be alive, given that Dorukon was still alive a little over a year ago from the current in comic time. If she was also young when the team got together, she could easily be an elderly halfling. Soon and Girard were far older than Dorukon was, that's why they've already died of old age years ago.

[Keltest]

It is technically possible, but most in-comic evidence suggests that she is dead. If she isn't, then she would be pretty darn old, even for a Halfling.

[Ceaon]

It is technically possible, but most in-comic evidence suggests that she is dead. If she isn't, then she would be pretty darn old, even for a Halfling.

Could you point me towards such in-comic evidence?

[ChristianSt]

Could you point me towards such in-comic evidence?

I think the only thing that could be seen as "in-comic evidence" for Serini's death is that Xykon has her diary (and that we haven't seen here yet).

Which doesn't really tell much, so I think it is a bit premature to call her "deceased" (and the Class and Level Geekery doesn't list her as deceased)

[grandpheonix]

Serini ends up being belkars grandma, belkar kills her while she is screamimng the same thing as other guy
"Halflings are supposed to be jolly, jolly!"

[Keltest]

Could you point me towards such in-comic evidence?

As mentioned, Xykon has her diary, and has had it for several years. That's not something that a rogue would just let out of her sight.

[ChristianSt]

That's not something that a rogue would just let out of her sight.

[citation needed]

[Keltest]

[citation needed]

hey, that's my shtick!

Anyway, if you had a secret gate that you didn't want anyone to find, would you willingly let your diary listing the location of not only your secret gate, but those of all your friends fall into anyone else's possession?

[Gnome Alone]

It's possible he stole the diary while she was away and thus without killing her. Something like that. I think it'd make a lot of sense for her to be alive, because then she could be the one to tell the Order the truth about the Snarl. Assuming she's alive and actually knows the truth.

[ChristianSt]

hey, that's my shtick!

Anyway, if you had a secret gate that you didn't want anyone to find, would you willingly let your diary listing the location of not only your secret gate, but those of all your friends fall into anyone else's possession?

Why to risk such a thing then in the first place? Wouldn't it be even better to not write it down?


Also the coordinates where encrypted. So Serini even thought about leaving it back somewhere. Maybe her old diary was full and she left it at home, because she wants to travel lighter?

[Cavenskull]

Why to risk such a thing then in the first place? Wouldn't it be even better to not write it down?
Only if she considered her own memory to be infallible, and only if she could be sure that nobody else would ever have a legitimate need for that information after she died. We already have evidence that at least one member of the Order of the Scribble did not have the other locations memorized, so we can't say with any certainty that Serini had all the locations memorized.

[Amphiox]

As mentioned, Xykon has her diary, and has had it for several years. That's not something that a rogue would just let out of her sight.

This is assuming that Serini did not, for whatever reason, WANT Xykon to have her diary.

It is also assuming that the book which Xykon thinks is Serini's diary really is a diary.

[factotum]

It is technically possible, but most in-comic evidence suggests that she is dead. If she isn't, then she would be pretty darn old, even for a Halfling.

Dorukan was certainly alive (albeit an old man) less than a year before the strip started, and he's human. Serini would naturally be longer-lived than him, so I wouldn't say she'd be excessively old if she were still alive.

However, critical difference here is that Dorukan essentially barricaded himself in his Dungeon and never went out. We're told that Serini wasn't the type to settle down, so presumably she continued adventuring after setting up Kraagor's Dungeon; that alone suggests she's more likely to be dead, since adventuring is a risky business. That, and the diary, are both pretty good circumstantial evidence that she's no longer around, but of course, unless we see a body (or a flashback of her death scene) we can't know for sure.

[Roland Itiative]

Serini is the MitD, and she has been manipulating both Redcloak and Xykon since SoD. All the weird abilities the MitD has demonstrated are effects of Epic level Bluff.

[ChristianSt]

Only if she considered her own memory to be infallible, and only if she could be sure that nobody else would ever have a legitimate need for that information after she died. We already have evidence that at least one member of the Order of the Scribble did not have the other locations memorized, so we can't say with any certainty that Serini had all the locations memorized.

I'm perfectly fine with her writing it down. But if the issue is that it can fall into the wrong hands, then the best thing would have been to not write it down in the first place.

And whether or not any other Scribbler memorized the locations or not would also be irrelevant. It is even questionable who even had all coordinates. (And also to most of those place the Scribblers wouldn't probably not need the coordinates, because they whey there and had a much easier time of finding them again.)



I think we can't really say anything about Serini's status. She is the perfect example of a Schrödinger's halfling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat). It is unfortunate that there is only one person who can actually look into the box right now, and for some reason he doesn't do it. :smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

It's shocking to see how many people here don't seem to understand the underlying purpose of a diary. :smallsigh:

This isn't the story of "Serini Toormuck and the Order of the Scribble" that she wrote down like Bilbo Baggins after everything was over. It is her diary. She wrote it day by day during her adventures, like a campaign journal. It has the locations of all the rifts because their adventures involved finding all of the rifts and defeating whatever weird cult or villain had taken up residence there. The fact that the locations are encoded is our biggest clue that she was, in fact, worried about her diary falling into the wrong hands, and she obviously thought that those were precautions enough to protect that sensitive information.


Now, we don't know how Xykon got Serini's diary. We do know that Serini didn't settle down to protect Kraagor's Gate, so it's possible that Xykon found her without it directly leading him to a Gate. It was heavily implied that Serini continued adventuring on her own (or perhaps with a new party) after the Order of the Scribble disbanded, which may or may not have led to an untimely demise years ago. If she did survive until now, she'd be getting pretty old and in all probability retired from the adventuring life some time ago. She could have pretty much settled down anywhere in the world, though, which might explain why she hasn't been seen yet. We don't know if she kept the diary with her all these years or left it somewhere she thought it would be safe. It's possible Xykon found it while Serini was not there, and he could have learned of its importance simply by reading it. Or not. We really don't know.

[ChristianSt]

It's shocking to see how many people here don't seem to understand the underlying purpose of a diary. :smallsigh:

This isn't the story of "Serini Toormuck and the Order of the Scribble" that she wrote down like Bilbo Baggins after everything was over. It is her diary. She wrote it day by day during her adventures, like a campaign journal. It has the locations of all the rifts because their adventures involved finding all of the rifts and defeating whatever weird cult or villain had taken up residence there. The fact that the locations are encoded is our biggest clue that she was, in fact, worried about her diary falling into the wrong hands, and she obviously thought that those were precautions enough to protect that sensitive information.

I haven't seen anyone having implied that Serini's diary isn't a diary.

It is certainly possible to not write everything that had happened into a diary. We don't know what she wrote down (and why she wrote it down). We only know that it is a diary written by Serini that contains information about the Scribblers and the encrypted gate locations.


[And maybe they aren't even really encrypted but only a normal halfling notation for coordinates that Xykon isn't aware off :smalltongue:]

[Keltest]

I haven't seen anyone having implied that Serini's diary isn't a diary.

It is certainly possible to not write everything that had happened into a diary. We don't know what she wrote down (and why she wrote it down). We only know that it is a diary written by Serini that contains information about the Scribblers and the encrypted gate locations.


[And maybe they aren't even really encrypted but only a normal halfling notation for coordinates that Xykon isn't aware off :smalltongue:]

Not that it isn't a diary specifically, but more like it was a set of directions deliberately written for the purpose of allowing someone to find the other gates. If she was writing it while discovering the gates, she most certainly wouldn't be writing it with the intention of, for example, Xykon finding it (which, by the way, is one of the least rational theories ive seen here. Most can usually at least pretend to be ground in logic).

[Lombard]

It's within the normal Halfling lifespan so it can't be ruled out. My guess is she's perfect to step out from the shadows for a Big Reveal, but it's just a tropey guess heh.

As regards Serini's diary.. so, presuming Serini is a dedicated diarist. Furthermore presuming she was still alive. How many books would she fill in that many years? It would be like at most a book every couple/few years right? So if she was ever (or often) traveling she's either going to be lugging around a case full of filled diaries or she would leave them behind. If she left them behind they could very well be stolen.. borrowed.. repossessed by Sackville-Bagginses while she's busy at the Lonely Mountain and presumed dead... etc. :smallwink:

[NerdyKris]

Well, on the topic of the diary, as far as we know from Shojo's version of the events as he claims Soon relayed them, all traces of the gates were wiped out. Nobody alive knew about them except the Order of the Scribble, or at least what they were. If the Dark One hadn't used his divine knowledge to alert his cleric, there wouldn't be someone going after the gates. And even then , he only knew about Lirian's gate. He, and apparently the Dark One, thought the plan was over until Lirian accidentally let it slip that there were other gates.

Xykon then had to search for years just to find that journal, without knowing anything other than it might exist in the hands of someone who knew Lirian at some point.

So the odds are Sereni didn't see a risk in keeping the journal. Especially if it doesn't include details about what's in the gates, just that they were dangerous and they sealed them. Without the Dark One's plan, there isn't a reason for anyone to go around opening them.


And all that is assumes that what we know is accurate. Maybe they thought the Snarl was destroyed? Maybe the Snarl isn't uncontrollable, maybe they just wanted to stop people from going through the rifts for some other reasons. (The theory being that maybe it's a creation of the Eastern Pantheon)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think she is not dead from old age, since Dorukan didn't die from old age and as a handling Serini would most likely possess a longer life-span. With that said, it is a little troubling that Xykon has hold of her diary, so it is possible she died in some other way or that Xykon killed her.

I think it would be interesting for the Order to actually meet someone from the Order of the Scribble.

[Phoniex]

So the idea that Serini would be related to Belkar is just obvious and I feel like an idiot for not thinking about it earlier. But I LOVE IT! I mean we know so much about every OOTS characters family EXCEPT Belkar.. so once we know about Durkon then we have to find out about Belkar and Serini! I'm now SO looking forward to that!

[dps]

(which, by the way, is one of the least rational theories ive seen here. Most can usually at least pretend to be ground in logic).

You're new here, aren't you?

(Looks at Keltest's join date) Yep.

[Keltest]

You're new here, aren't you?

(Looks at Keltest's join date) Yep.

In my short time among you, I have seen (and participated in) some of the most brain-wrenching, mind-numbing eye-scrambling theories known to man. And yet not once have I ever seen someone try to explain that theory besides "she gave it to him because she wanted him to have it."

The closest ive ever seen someone get is to explain that Serini could have a plan of some sort. Not explaining the plan at all, just stating that there could possibly be one.

I defy you to find an idea seriously believed in that has a worse justification than repeating itself.

(and because this is in fact the OOTS forum, there is no prize for the inevitable first place theory)

[CRtwenty]

Well its certainly possible she could be alive. The maximum lifespan for halflings is about 200 years so she certainly hasn't died of old age.

She's also an epic level rogue and presumably has access to high power magic items. If anybody could disappear anywhere it'd be her.

However whether she actually is alive is another story. I assume she is bit we don't know either way.

[Sartharina]

As far as links to the past go... I'm expecting Kraagor to come surfing out of the final gate like a Badass out of Hell.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I defy you to find an idea seriously believed in that has a worse justification than repeating itself.

(and because this is in fact the OOTS forum, there is no prize for the inevitable first place theory)

How about theories that the Order was still trapped in the illusion? Or the theories about Blackwing that popped up after #943? Do I win my non-existent prize? :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

How about theories that the Order was still trapped in the illusion? Or the theories about Blackwing that popped up after #943? Do I win my non-existent prize? :smallbiggrin:

Yes. Your prize is contained in this box []

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yes. Your prize is contained in this box []

Ooh, white space on a screen! How great!

[Procyonpi]

Honestly, considering that Dorukan was alive a half a year before the start of the comic, if she's dead, I doubt it's from old age.

Although the fact that Xykon has her diary doesn't bode well.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So the idea that Serini would be related to Belkar is just obvious and I feel like an idiot for not thinking about it earlier. But I LOVE IT! I mean we know so much about every OOTS characters family EXCEPT Belkar.. so once we know about Durkon then we have to find out about Belkar and Serini! I'm now SO looking forward to that!

I doubt we will find out anything more about Belkar's family. There have been hints that they exist, much less than the hints if the existence of the family of other members of the Order. Also, the Giant has said he doesn't want to give Belkar a background, which having a family would involve.

[Vinsfeld]

Unless we actually see her, she's both alive and dead.

[Peelee]

I think we can't really say anything about Serini's status. She is the perfect example of a Schrödinger's halfling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat). It is unfortunate that there is only one person who can actually look into the box right now, and for some reason he doesn't do it. :smallwink:

....she only exists as an example to show the story is ridiculous, and thus, a better interpretation of the story is needed? Dude, I think The Giant may take issue with that assertion.

[Citation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat)]

[rodneyAnonymous]

I think we can't really say anything about Serini's status. She is the perfect example of a Schrödinger's halfling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat). It is unfortunate that there is only one person who can actually look into the box right now, and for some reason he doesn't do it.

Short topic detour: "Schrodinger's cat" is a thought experiment devised to illustrate an absurdity that follows from the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. It highlights a paradox. It is "the cat would be simultaneously both alive and dead until you open the box; isn't that crazy?" It is not "anything with an unknown alive/dead status" and this isn't an example, let alone a perfect one.

[ChristianSt]

....she only exists as an example to show the story is ridiculous, and thus, a better interpretation of the story is needed? Dude, I think The Giant may take issue with that assertion.

[Citation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat)]



Ok, maybe the comparison isn't great, but I find it much more interesting that you use exactly the same link as your "[Citation]" as I posted in the post you quoted from me :smallamused:

[Peelee]

Ok, maybe the comparison isn't great, but I find it much more interesting that you use exactly the same link as your "[Citation]" as I posted in the post you quoted from me :smallamused:

Aha! That was quite deliberate, as the second and third articles both denote that the thought experiment was set up with the express intention of saying, "look how ridiculous this is! Clearly it cannot be correct."

If you want a more different or perhaps more concise citation, I'm happy to oblige (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2524). (If you're not familiar with SMBC, clicking the red button shows exactly how I feel whenever the topic is brought up).

Also, so as to avoid completely derailing, I'm gonna cast my lot in with the Serini's Alive group. If only for the fact that I think it would be entertaining to see a Henry Jones Sr.-esque adventure in trying to retrieve the diary. I could just see Xykon signing it and everything.

[ChristianSt]

Aha! That was quite deliberate, as the second and third articles both denote that the thought experiment was set up with the express intention of saying, "look how ridiculous this is! Clearly it cannot be correct."

If you want a more different or perhaps more concise citation, I'm happy to oblige (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2524). (If you're not familiar with SMBC, clicking the red button shows exactly how I feel whenever the topic is brought up).

Also, so as to avoid completely derailing, I'm gonna cast my lot in with the Serini's Alive group. If only for the fact that I think it would be entertaining to see a Henry Jones Sr.-esque adventure in trying to retrieve the diary. I could just see Xykon signing it and everything.

I'm familiar with the background of Schördinger's Cat (I'm not really deep into Quantum mechanics, but had a lecture about Quantum Computing which uses the "weirdness" of Quantum mechanics in computations) and that it is a thought experiment. Sorry if my attempt to make a fun joke wasn't really funny to you (or others). But since I'm not as funny as the author of the comic we all love here, I think I have to not try to make my living out of it :smallwink:.


I think Serini is still alive, too. Mainly because Rich said in the Geekademia Interview that there will be more to see about the Scribblers, and I don't see any other source than a member of the Scribblers, and Serini is the most likely candidate. (The only one I would complete rule out to meet again are Soon and Girard.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If you want a more different or perhaps more concise citation, I'm happy to oblige (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2524). (If you're not familiar with SMBC, clicking the red button shows exactly how I feel whenever the topic is brought up).

I love that comic because it sums up perfectly what Schrödinger's Cat is like to most people. :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

I'm familiar with the background of Schördinger's Cat (I'm not really deep into Quantum mechanics, but had a lecture about Quantum Computing which uses the "weirdness" of Quantum mechanics in computations) and that it is a thought experiment. Sorry if my attempt to make a fun joke wasn't really funny to you (or others). But since I'm not as funny as the author of the comic we all love here, I think I have to not try to make my living out of it :smallwink:.


I think Serini is still alive, too. Mainly because Rich said in the Geekademia Interview that there will be more to see about the Scribblers, and I don't see any other source than a member of the Scribblers, and Serini is the most likely candidate. (The only one I would complete rule out to meet again are Soon and Girard.)

Well, I'm a crotchety old man, so there's my excuse for hating fun in all its forms.

I took that interview to mean that there would be more flashback, possibly accurate, possibly colored by POV. Though either could easily be achieved by having a Scribbler (such as Serini) still be alive, as well. Good thinking there.

[ChristianSt]

I took that interview to mean that there would be more flashback, possibly accurate, possibly colored by POV. Though either could easily be achieved by having a Scribbler (such as Serini) still be alive, as well. Good thinking there.

I don't know. While flashbacks are certainly possible, I would find them somehow odd. (I think they wouldn't really fit into the narrative somehow.)

Another possible would be that the Order finds more "artifacts/messages" left by the Scribblers (like Girard's illusion in the desert). But I don't think we will see really more of them at Kraagor's Gate. Sure, properly there is some information about Kraagor to be found, but I don't think that Serini would deliberately plant information there why the Scribblers argued/fighted with each other.

The only other information other than Shojo's story is Serini's diary. And somehow I don't think it will turn up again. It could probably have more information about Kraagor's Gate than about Girard's Gate, so maybe Xykon/Redclaok will read some more. But I don't think the Order will see it, and I think the Order somehow needs to get some more information about what is going on. Though maybe the Scribblers doesn't know either what is going on with the Snarl.

I don't think that any Scribbler will join the Order (because it is the story of the Order of the Stick and not the story of the Scribblers), but I think we will somehow have some contact between them. I could for example see that Serini and the Order arrives rather simultaneously at Kraagor's Gate to stop Xykon. Serini tells the Order what is really going on and that they need to do <something else> while she delays Xykon (and probably dies shortly after the Order has left Xykon's immediate reach).

[David Argall]

OK, the halfling could still be around. But why should she be in the story? As already noted, this is the story of the Order of the Stick, not of some NPC. What story purpose does she have?
Our psionic has woken up the Snarl and has had close contact with it, and she can tell the party anything about the snarl the plot needs to pass on and tell it better than our halfling can. And it is hard to think that the party won't be coming back to the desert [or the "desert" will come to them], again making the appearance of the Scribble unnecessary.
So where is the plot need for an old lady?

[Keltest]

OK, the halfling could still be around. But why should she be in the story? As already noted, this is the story of the Order of the Stick, not of some NPC. What story purpose does she have?
Our psionic has woken up the Snarl and has had close contact with it, and she can tell the party anything about the snarl the plot needs to pass on and tell it better than our halfling can. And it is hard to think that the party won't be coming back to the desert [or the "desert" will come to them], again making the appearance of the Scribble unnecessary.
So where is the plot need for an old lady?

Maybe she has a copy of the spell used to seal the gates. Whether or not she can cast it, the Order has a divine and an arcane caster who can try.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Our psionic has woken up the Snarl and has had close contact with it, and she can tell the party anything about the snarl the plot needs to pass on and tell it better than our halfling can.

We do not know that this is what Laurin's role will be, or even that she has this information. One thing Serini can tell us that Laurin cannot is information about the Gates themselves. And, of course, about the other Scribblers.

[ChristianSt]

Our psionic has woken up the Snarl and has had close contact with it, and she can tell the party anything about the snarl the plot needs to pass on and tell it better than our halfling can. And it is hard to think that the party won't be coming back to the desert [or the "desert" will come to them], again making the appearance of the Scribble unnecessary.
So where is the plot need for an old lady?

While Laurin might be a reasonable outlet for information about the Snarl, she is certainly not in a position to give information about the Order of the Scribble. But from what Rich had said in the Geekademia their will be some information about the Scribblers in the future.

And imo the most likeliest candidate to give such information is a Scribbler in person. I think Soon and Girard are clearly out. From the remaining options Serini seems like the easiest one, since the others are more or less dead.


The only other source I can think of would be Serini's diary. Though Team Evil probably isn't really interested any more and I don't see a way how the Order of the Stick should gain access to it.

[Sartharina]

I don't know when the geekadamia interview was, but it might have been referring to us learning about the fate and style of Girard Draketooth, and the extent of his rivalry with Soon Kim, and whatever we learn about Kraagor and Sereni from their gate. When the scribblers were first introduced, we didn't really see much about them - just that it consisted of a Human Paladin, Human Illusionist/Ranger, Halfling something, Dwarf Barbarian, and Elf Druid, and the Paladin and Illusionist didn't get along and the dwarf died.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Don't forget about the Human Wizard.

Also, I just realized that there are other members of the Scribble who, having not died from old age, may be reachable by the Order.

[Keltest]

Don't forget about the Human Wizard.

Also, I just realized that there are other members of the Scribble who, having not died from old age, may be reachable by the Order.

Lirian and Dorukan were captured and "killed" by Xykon. Theyre unreachable for now. Soon died of old age, and Gerard died of something a while ago. Kraagor has been dead for a long while now. That leaves Serini.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Lirian and Dorukan were captured and "killed" by Xykon. Theyre unreachable for now. Soon died of old age, and Gerard died of something a while ago. Kraagor has been dead for a long while now. That leaves Serini.

Emphasis on that "for now". They are still more reachable than Soon or Girard, both of who are never coming back and Kraagor, who is trapped or obliterated. If Xykon were to lose a certain gem...

[Keltest]

Emphasis on that "for now". They are still more reachable than Soon or Girard, both of who are never coming back and Kraagor, who is trapped or obliterated. If Xykon were to lose a certain gem...

I think that's about as likely as the order finding the remains of either Soon or Girard and casting "speak with dead" on them.

[ChristianSt]

I don't know when the geekadamia interview was, but it might have been referring to us learning about the fate and style of Girard Draketooth, and the extent of his rivalry with Soon Kim, and whatever we learn about Kraagor and Sereni from their gate. When the scribblers were first introduced, we didn't really see much about them - just that it consisted of a Human Paladin, Human Illusionist/Ranger, Halfling something, Dwarf Barbarian, and Elf Druid, and the Paladin and Illusionist didn't get along and the dwarf died.

The Geekademia Interview was during the Kickstarter, which was in Feb 2012, which was around #830. So the only information we learned after that was that Girard's Clan was killed (and that they where killed by Familicide). Which has us told us basically nothing about the Scribblers. (Unless you count the fact "Girard's descendants didn't wanted to get rezzed by Durkon" as something relevant to the Scribblers).


So yes, it might refer to something we learn at Kraagor's Gate, though I don't see that much information lying around.

[Peelee]

OK, the halfling could still be around. But why should she be in the story? As already noted, this is the story of the Order of the Stick, not of some NPC. What story purpose does she have?
Our psionic has woken up the Snarl and has had close contact with it, and she can tell the party anything about the snarl the plot needs to pass on and tell it better than our halfling can. And it is hard to think that the party won't be coming back to the desert [or the "desert" will come to them], again making the appearance of the Scribble unnecessary.
So where is the plot need for an old lady?

Up until Laurin woke the snarl, you could have made the same argument for her. As the story is not finished, any argument you could make saying "where is the plot need for X" is irrelevant, because the plot hasn't concluded yet.

[Loreweaver15]

Ooh, white space on a screen! How great!

I'm kind of disappointed that it wasn't this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-Prize) instead.

[Keltest]

I'm kind of disappointed that it wasn't this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-Prize) instead.

no prize can stand up to the awesome might that is a group of white or near-white pixles!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm kind of disappointed that it wasn't this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-Prize) instead.
That would have been good too. I'm gonna have to save that link for later. :smallbiggrin:

[Reathin]

Short topic detour: "Schrodinger's cat" is a thought experiment devised to illustrate an absurdity that follows from the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. It highlights a paradox. It is "the cat would be simultaneously both alive and dead until you open the box; isn't that crazy?" It is not "anything with an unknown alive/dead status" and this isn't an example, let alone a perfect one.

Thank you. The fact that the thought experiment is so frequently used in pop culture as an example, rather than a counter example, drives me to pull my hair out. Have a Science! cookie.

On topic, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Serini was still alive. If I recall correctly, Halflings have a longer natural lifespan than humans, and it hasn't been that long since Doruken (sp?) was up and active. I'd be interested in hearing the perspective of one of the original Gate defenders. I'm currently trying to decide whether she's still active or not. I suppose my money's on "not at the Gate right now, but has a means of knowing when it's being invaded and will get their at the drop of a hat", so we might see a bit of her before the story concludes.

[David Argall]

Up until Laurin woke the snarl, you could have made the same argument for her.
But Laurin has woken the Snarl, which now gives her several advantages as the source of needed data. She is active in the plot and her form of contact makes it plausible that she learned whatever facts the party needs.


As the story is not finished, any argument you could make saying "where is the plot need for X" is irrelevant, because the plot hasn't concluded yet.
Our very purpose here is to predict the plot, and the plot needs are thus relevant. Our writer does like twists, but his story is still shaped by plot needs and we are closer to the correct answer if we pay attention to plot needs.

[Peelee]

Our very purpose here is to predict the plot, and the plot needs are thus relevant. Our writer does like twists, but his story is still shaped by plot needs and we are closer to the correct answer if we pay attention to plot needs.

Which works great until you create a tautology - "Serini is not relevant to the plot until she is relevant to the plot." Which you have effectively done. It's an answer, yes, but it's a terrible one. It's be like going on a thread asking if Redcloak's niece were still alive and saying, "She's probably still alive, unless she's dead."

EDIT: Also, I take issue with "our very purpose here." If you mean on the forum in general, no - our purpose is to talk about Order of the Stick in general. If you mean this thread, still no - our purpose is to predict whether Serini is still alive, which may be revealed without having anything to do with the plot. If you mean as the audience in general, no - I can't speak for you, but my purpose is to enjoy the story.

[Haldir]

This is the only way I can ever see a Rogue beating a full caster. You've got to convince the arrogant bastard that he's making all the right moves and everything is going his way and make him fight on your terms. Even then, still pretty impossible.The diary is a massive gamble at misdirection. All of the locations of the other Gates were true, except for Kraagor's. Serini knew that a threat to the gate would only come from a scenery chewing villain, and if at least one Gate were still functioning then everything would hold together. By giving all other Gate locations true, she can, via the monitoring divination, know everything that the villain does and is capable of. If they went to Kraagor's first and didn't find it, they wouldn't likely look for any of the other Gates, or be less likely to do so. The actual location encoded in the diary is a trap that Serini has been preparing for Xykon since the events of SoD.

Alternatively, Serini is on the planet in the Rift.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, if that's so, looks like Serini thought wrong. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html)

[Haldir]

Well, if that's so, looks like Serini thought wrong. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html)

That's normal behavior for the Snarl, however, and doesn't necessarily mean that the whole thing is going to come apart. One protected is still better than none-protected.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That's normal behavior for the Snarl, however, and doesn't necessarily mean that the whole thing is going to come apart. One protected is still better than none-protected.

From the looks of it, things are beginning to come apart. Also, that is much more than the Snarl did in the flashbacks.

[Loreweaver15]

From the looks of it, things are beginning to come apart. Also, that is much more than the Snarl did in the flashbacks.

Crayon drawings are a story being told, not a sequence of events being relayed accurately or even truthfully; it's the same reason we shouldn't assume that the Snarl's combat form is that two-legged, two-armed figure seen slaying the Eastern Gods.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Crayon drawings are a story being told, not a sequence of events being relayed accurately or even truthfully; it's the same reason we shouldn't assume that the Snarl's combat form is that two-legged, two-armed figure seen slaying the Eastern Gods.

I would still say this is on a much larger scale than what seems to have occurred so far. However, even if the crayon drawings depict similar events, they were showing what it was like when the Snarl became aware of the gaps in its prison, and how it was killing things around it. Now that it has become aware of them again, I would say things are falling apart.

[evileeyore]

I think that's about as likely as the order finding the remains of either Soon or Girard and casting "speak with dead" on them.

Finding the remains? Check (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html).

Casting Speak With Dead? They already know it'll just be full of jokes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html)...

[Keltest]

Finding the remains? Check (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html).

Casting Speak With Dead? They already know it'll just be full of jokes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html)...

I was referring to *after* Azure city was taken and Gerard's gate detonated.

[evileeyore]

I was referring to *after* Azure city was taken and Gerard's gate detonated.

Good point.

[thereaper]

Is it really so hard to believe that a rogue who is carrying a book that holds information too important to destroy and too dangerous to carry might choose to hide it somewhere under the mistaken belief that no one will find it, only for someone to do just that?

[Khay]

Plus, eventually one gets tired of keeping that outdated quest log around. Sure, the Scribblers saved the world. That's worth a bunch of XP alright. But what Epic-level adventurer hasn't done that? I mean, yeah, for the other shmucks, who retired after their first Epic quest, it was a life-defining experience, but Serini? Serini kept adventuring and the world had to keep finding appropriate challenges for her to face. So she has probably saved the world another four or five times since then. There's probably another diary or two somewhere containing equally dangerous secrets.

I am being very slightly sarcastic.

[Keltest]

Is it really so hard to believe that a rogue who is carrying a book that holds information too important to destroy and too dangerous to carry might choose to hide it somewhere under the mistaken belief that no one will find it, only for someone to do just that?

well, the information isn't too important to destroy and too dangerous to carry. The whole point in the Azure Guard's crusade is that they ARE destroying that information. If she really is so absent-minded that she cant simply memorize it, she could just care it into the dungeon by her gate.

[Peelee]

If she really is so absent-minded that she cant simply memorize it, she could just care it into the dungeon by her gate.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x182/peejlee/DrHenryJonesSrquickmeme.jpg

It's such a nice parallel because he also had his diary stolen by the enemy - his diary which contained notes on the locaiton, security, traps, and whatnot of the Macguffin.

[Keltest]

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x182/peejlee/DrHenryJonesSrquickmeme.jpg

It's such a nice parallel because he also had his diary stolen by the enemy - his diary which contained notes on the locaiton, security, traps, and whatnot of the Macguffin.

does this mean Serini is actually Sean Connery?

[Peelee]

does this mean Serini is actually Sean Connery?

Well, my point was all Serini had to do was not be any better than Dr. Henry Jones, Sr., which itself is a remarkably high bar to pass..... but I like your theory better, so let's go with that.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think Serini's journal would be safer with her than hidden. Especially since she's an epic level person living in a dungeon protected by lots of monsters.


does this mean Serini is actually Sean Connery?

New headcanon.

[Loreweaver15]

I think Serini's journal would be safer with her than hidden. Especially since she's an epic level person living in a dungeon protected by lots of monsters.



New headcanon.

Serini did not stay at Kraagor's Gate, she filled it with monsters and ran off to do other things.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Serini did not stay at Kraagor's Gate, she filled it with monsters and ran off to do other things.

I had forgotten about that. Okay, I think it would have been safer with Serini, since she's an epic level person.

[Paseo H]

Serini ends up being belkars grandma, belkar kills her while she is screamimng the same thing as other guy
"Halflings are supposed to be jolly, jolly!"

I was under the impression that Belkar's family were mostly monsters like him as well. And that his early years sucked, like a dysfunctional family all abusing each other or something.

[Keltest]

I was under the impression that Belkar's family were mostly monsters like him as well. And that his early years sucked, like a dysfunctional family all abusing each other or something.

The giant has deliberately left Belkar's backstory unexplored beyond the faintest hints which may or may not be true because theres no way to do it without destroying the character.

[evileeyore]

does this mean Serini is actually Sean Connery?

Nah, she'll just be voiced by Sean Connery, so it'll be another Doctor Girlfriend issue.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Nah, she'll just be voiced by Sean Connery, so it'll be another Doctor Girlfriend issue.

That might be difficult in a webcomic.

[Peelee]

That might be difficult in a webcomic.

You DON'T read the comic with Sean Connery as everyone's voice? What a terrible thought....

[Jaxzan Proditor]

You DON'T read the comic with Sean Connery as everyone's voice? What a terrible thought....

It's not the same as having him do it, though.

[thereaper]

I had forgotten about that. Okay, I think it would have been safer with Serini, since she's an epic level person.

And therefore faces epic-level threats, which brings up another issue.

If Serini hides her diary and someone finds it through sheer dumb luck, then that person is most likely not going to be high enough level to do anything with it.

If, however, she carries it with her while adventuring, she runs the constant risk that if she is killed by an epic level threat (which, as an adventurer, is likely), they will get the diary, and be able to use it for all sorts of nefarious purposes.

Given that she is a Rogue (and hiding is their best skill), she may well have decided that hiding it under a rock in the middle of a forest somewhere that no one knows about but her was the safest thing she could have done with it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

And therefore faces epic-level threats, which brings up another issue.

If Serini hides her diary and someone finds it through sheer dumb luck, then that person is most likely not going to be high enough level to do anything with it.

If, however, she carries it with her while adventuring, she runs the constant risk that if she is killed by an epic level threat (which, as an adventurer, is likely), they will get the diary, and be able to use it for all sorts of nefarious purposes.

Given that she is a Rogue (and hiding is their best skill), she may well have decided that hiding it under a rock in the middle of a forest somewhere that no one knows about but her was the safest thing she could have done with it.
We haven't seen that many epic-leveled creatures, so I'm a little dubious that there are enough for Serini to come into contact with. Also, since she is a Rogue and therefore hiding is her best skill, it would be easy for her to disappear. Finally, even if only a low-leveled person would find it, what happens if some high-leveled person kills them or if they join with a high-leveled person?

It is possible that Serini hid her diary, but I don't think that it is what happened.

[Keltest]

We haven't seen that many epic-leveled creatures, so I'm a little dubious that there are enough for Serini to come into contact with. Also, since she is a Rogue and therefore hiding is her best skill, it would be easy for her to disappear. Finally, even if only a low-leveled person would find it, what happens if some high-leveled person kills them or if they join with a high-leveled person?

It is possible that Serini hid her diary, but I don't think that it is what happened.

Shes an epic level adventurer. That means that whatever she is facing is automatically challenging to her, even if it has to cheat. Likewise we wont see many epic level threats because this is the Order's story, and they aren't epic level yet.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Shes an epic level adventurer. That means that whatever she is facing is automatically challenging to her, even if it has to cheat. Likewise we wont see many epic level threats because this is the Order's story, and they aren't epic level yet.

They have Xykon as a threat, and he's around 10 levels higher than they are. Also, the OOTS world seems to be extremely low-powered so far. There are barely an Clerics able to cast resurrection, barely any Wizards past 10th level, and many of the larger monsters seem to not exist. This all makes me doubt that there are many epic level threats.

[thereaper]

And yet, the Scribblers reached epic level, which means there must have been appropriate challenges.

[Keltest]

They have Xykon as a threat, and he's around 10 levels higher than they are. Also, the OOTS world seems to be extremely low-powered so far. There are barely an Clerics able to cast resurrection, barely any Wizards past 10th level, and many of the larger monsters seem to not exist. This all makes me doubt that there are many epic level threats.

what are you basing that off of? The only time they've had a particularly difficult time finding one at all (rather than one that will help them) is in Azure City, with Shojo. And we don't even know if he was the only one capable of casting the spell in the city, or if Shojo simply wanted them to wait.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

And yet, the Scribblers reached epic level, which means there must have been appropriate challenges.
Up to a certain point there would be. That doesn't mean there is anything that could kill Serini.


what are you basing that off of? The only time they've had a particularly difficult time finding one at all (rather than one that will help them) is in Azure City, with Shojo. And we don't even know if he was the only one capable of casting the spell in the city, or if Shojo simply wanted them to wait.
We have met four Clerics capable of casting Resurrection: Durkon, Redcloak, Malack, and the person in Azure City. Roy himself points out how Haley spent a while looking for a Cleric and couldn't find one. We haven't even seen all that many people of a higher level than the Order.

[factotum]

We have met four Clerics capable of casting Resurrection: Durkon, Redcloak, Malack, and the person in Azure City.

Actually, we have no evidence whatsoever that Malack was high enough level to cast Resurrection--in fact, the chances are good that he was not, due to the difficulty in gaining levels imposed by his vampire level adjustment.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Actually, we have no evidence whatsoever that Malack was high enough level to cast Resurrection--in fact, the chances are good that he was not, due to the difficulty in gaining levels imposed by his vampire level adjustment.

I thought he was lvl. 13 instead of 12 for some reason. :smallredface: Okay, that brings us down to three Clerics.

[Rogar Demonblud]

As towards Serini's level of encryption on the data relating to a pan-dimensional killing machine, let's just remember that Xykon was able to crack it.

[Keltest]

As towards Serini's level of encryption on the data relating to a pan-dimensional killing machine, let's just remember that Xykon was able to crack it.

Xykon is actually quite smart if he takes more than a quarter of a second to think about something. He just has a tiny attention span.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

As towards Serini's level of encryption on the data relating to a pan-dimensional killing machine, let's just remember that Xykon was able to crack it.

He also knew the coordinates of Lirian's Gate and was able to decode it from there. Granted it probably wasn't that complex, but it probably was a fairly good code.