PDA

View Full Version : A Sane Sniper build [PEACH, WIP]



Xhosant
2014-04-26, 01:55 PM
Most of you have noticed by now, that 3.5e doesn't exactly support the 'sniper' gameplay. That is, a physical ranged attacker that delivers heavy damage from a very long range with a single shot per round.

That's not to say there aren't some solid builds out there. In fact, they're too solid.

A good example is a particular build of an shooter that fires an arrow imbued with an audio playback that kills everyone in hearing range.

Another is an archer whose always-critical shots scar you so bad, you go into a come through sheer ugliness.

I wanted something simpler:

A build meant to spot, and deal heavy damage, to the enemy over considerable range, all through a single shot.

I will provide both the rock-solid and DM-dependent choices for each of the above issues, because frankly the build's a little tight on resources.

What it does possess plenty of, though, is stat freedom. It's SAD, if even that: only dexterity is needed, adding to-hit. Strength is of minor use via skills, as is wisdom, skill points available are ample for the build's needs and charisma has no necessary use. Constitution, finally, shouldn't some into play: Your job is to punch holes the size of their fists onto stuff from beyond sight and, failing that, getting your behinds out of there. If (when) you get engaged a mile away from the rest of the party, what you'll need is the ability to disappear, not fight back.

Alos note the build is to benefit greatly from fractional BAB, since you'll multiclass at least between 2 3/4th classes. Also, I went for a crossbow build, because of flavor and the slightly larger range increment. Finally, and I can't stress that enough: Stay prone. It's a couple minor bonuses, no penalties, and it's fitting.

Onward to the specifics!

Incomplete:

Player's HandbookH, MIC

Damage

Player's Handbook

The big question, what source of damage will you use to power the build? I picked sneak attacks. This is simple, as optimizing your damage is already done to death, and since you can acquire it as a simple rogue. Anything that boosts sneak attack is fair game for gear and feats, plus Quick reload to let us move up to heavy crossbows and still shoot 1/round.

The catch is, we need to boost its range over the 30-feet threshold.

Which brings us to:

Range

Now, we need a way to apply sneak attack damage that doesn't have a range limit. I'll pick, to that end, a first-level arcane spell: Sniper's Shot, a swift action spell that makes your first shot in a round deal sneak attack damage regardless of range.

Now, everyone's gonna note, we either need exceedingly numerous 1st-level spells per day, or to persist it, and we gotta do that with as few resources as possible. The best way to do that, I found, was to go with a single Divine Magician Cleric.

That's gonna raise a few DM eyebrows, of course. You signed up for a physical ranged, and now you're trying to cheese a Cleric. But we're not using anything important the cleric gives for non-snipping purposes (and personally i'd decline using differently those resources i could). Try to talk your DM into letting your 'spell prayer' be crossbow maintenance, so at least we'll have that flavorful bit to justify the decision :smallbiggrin:

Now, you'll need Extend and Persist spell, as well as Divine Metamagic. Extend has no requirements, Persist has only Extend, and Divine metamagic must be taken after (or along with) the Cleric level and Persist.

Pick a single level of Cloistered Cleric, trading in the extra domain for Divine Magician (picking 'Sniper's Shot' for your 1st-lvl spell) along with the Undeath and Elf domains. This gives you 7+Cha turn attempts (Extra Turning courtesy of the Undeath domain), just enough to fuel your DMM SNiper's Shot, and Point-Blank Shot (Elf domain), a feat utterly useless to our build (even if it wasn't already), but necessary for Far Shot. It also gives 1/day Truestrike (or detect undead, I guess? :smallconfused:) plus cantrips.

Why it's ambiguous? For one, I'm not entirely sure every DM would allow trading the bonus Knowledge domain. On the second count, there's no god in print that has the 2 domains. I went for a Deathless Elf mentor for my 'hypothetical' sniper, but YMMV. The point is to cut an extra feat off the shopping list.

We'll instead go for a single level of Cleric, Divine Magician-ing one domain and picking Elf for the second. We still get Point-Blank Shot for free, we still pick Sniper's Shot for our 'arcane' spell, and are still left with cantrips and 1/day Truestrike (alas, no Detect Undead option :smallsigh::smalltongue:)

However, we need an extra 4 turn attempts per day, even if momentarily. That might be earned via the Extra Turning feat, a +4 Cha mod, or an item granting extra turn attempts (nightsticks included, if it flies by your GM and doesn't get expensive). Even if the bonus doesn't last more than a round, you're good to go, so pop on that Cloak of Elvenkind then put it away again.

That means we've spent 3 (4 if unlucky) feats to be able to SA from any distance. And since we'll be too far to be seen (I hope), all our attacks go for flat-footed, sneak-attackable targets.

Need Feedback: There's the issue of extra turn attempts from a higher Charisma, and it's both unlikely and (to me) in poor taste to use them as such. Is there some item or Divine feat you guys think could expend them to our end?

So, our targets won't be able to spot us, but how will we?

Spotting

If only all our issues were so open-and-shut. At lower levels, just keep your Spot ranks at maximum (a non-issue for a rogue). Maybe throw in an item boost now and then. Maybe one of your buddies can provide you with perception of where the ground team is.

But as soon as you can, grab a Third Eye: Sense (courtesy of Magic Item Compendium). It's a simple orange crystal, that takes a standard action to put on. It lets you see and hear a given location, for no action, any times per day. The only catch being that you need to target a non-pitch-black area that you're familiar with, or can easily specify. The second being our main mode of operation: 'That place 500 feet over there' is a perfectly valid description.

At 24.000 gp, our only problem is getting it reflavored to sniper goggles.

Considerable Range

Ok, so now we can sneak attack stuff way over there. In theory. We still need to boost how far 'way over there' can be, not to mention having a chance to actually hit a mark. We have, again, a cheese-light and a cheese-heavy way to do that. And we also have the way of the cheese to end all cheese, with which I'll start.

First of all, do not try to pull this off. Not unless your game is explicitly trying to push the limit on 'cheesy' and it's been balanced as such.

Know, remember that special source'book', the Dragon Magazine? The one often bashed for its obscurity, lack of balance and poor writing, rules-wise?

We're not just using part of it. We're using the poor writing itself.

Enter the Martial Monk. A monk variant from issue 310, who's basically a monk/warrior hybrid, dropping some skill points for a selection of fighter feats at levels 1, 2 and 6. The catch is, a monk's bonus feats (to which those are included) can skip prerequisites.

Which brings us to Distant Shot. A feat that literally removes the concept of the range increment, meaning no range penalties and no maximum range. If you can see it (hint, you can) then you can shoot it like it's right in your face. It would be broken, if it didn't require being an epic level character.

Oh, wait...:smallbiggrin:

For us more sane people, there's the Cragtop Archer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b). A single level in it gets us half the range penalties, a third level boosts our total range by 1.5x, in the absence of a low ceiling. And there's an occasional +2 damage at level 2, but whatever.

However, the thorn on our side is in the prerequisites, the feat Mountain warrior. Now, it's kinda-sorta of use to us, but we can't really afford to get another so lousy feat, if we can help it. But, the article above comes to our rescue. Right in the 'adaption' category, it says that the 'cragtop' part of the archer is optional, since not all such archers actually prefer cragtops :smallbiggrin: The point is, the designers recommend we review that bit, and that's what you should ask the DM to do. If they can lose the feat, or replace it with something of more use to you, do that.

So there's your 2 ways. Get the feat, or whatever replaced it, then grab 1 or 3 levels, as you'd like.

The build so far:

Rogue 2
Feats: Extend Spell, Persist Spell (plus extra turning if necessary)
BAB 1(+ 0.5)

Rogue 2/Cleric 1
Feat: Divine Metamagic (persist) (If an additional Extra Turning is needed, delay this until available)
Stat requirements: Wis 11
BAB 1(+1.25)

Rogue X/Cleric 1(Gather the skills for Cragtop Archer)
Feats: Far Shot, Mountain Warrior (if needed), Rapid Reload (eventually).
BAB 3X/4 (as Rogue X)(+0.75)

Rogue X/Cleric 1/Cragtop Archer 1-3
BAB as above, +1 or 3, depending.

The raise rogue. Doesn't seem too complicated, right? But you'll notice we need plenty of feats already, and we're not even done yet. So, we're gonna roll with human, and whatever feat sources you can find, take them. I'm looking at you, Flaws. Ideally, we can pull off the whole build above within the first 12 levels, unless we can acquire flaws on the fly (that will cut it down to 10).

Don't worry though: we'll put those extra feats to good use regardless.

Above and Beyond

All right, congratulations everyone. We've got a high range, a decent accuracy, and a dependable amount of power. But what more could we get?

Well, for one, we could use a little sneak attack more. There's also another issue to consider: There are 3 kinds of defense a typical archer has to face. One is Armor bonuses to AC, the second is Dex bonuses, and the third is being out-ranged. We have the second pair off our list, but an enemy could still pump their armor. Wouldn't it be better if the only choice we left them to defend themselves were to curl up and cry?

Can you say with me, 'Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)'?

First of all, replacing a single Rogue level with Psychic Rogue (preferably the first 1) gets us an extra 1d6 sneak attack, 1 level earlier. It also banishes a .75 BAB more to the Fractional Plane, but hopefully you got that sorted. It also gets you a single power from a small list of nigh-useful choices (provided you can power it).

The best part, though, is that with a 14 in Inteligence it gets us a single power point. Measly, I know. But remember those 2 extra feats we talked about? Well, turns out we can fill those 2 with Psionic Shot, and Fell Shot, respectively. Now, that 1 point can add us a 2d6 damage on the shot, or better yet, make it a touch attack. Curling and crying achieved. Remind me to thank Forrestfire for inspiring this :smallbiggrin:

Ok, news flash: I'll go with PsyWar 2 instead. Keeps us SAD, and gets us 2 bonus feats, which we need desperately.

There's the catch of having to 'take aim' for a round if you want to use it a second time per encounter, but that'd be ok with me. If you figure a way to make it considerably faster, all the better. And make sure to look for the 3.5 versions, both have doubles. Plus we're stacking Trapfindings, so consider taking the Poison Use ACF from Drow of the Underdark (for our regular rogue). Works just like the feat, and I think theme fits too.

Ok, so we got Divine and Psionic. Think a touch of Arcane could give us a lift? Cause I do.

Let's take a look at Spellthief: first level gets us another 1d6 sneak attack, the typical BAB and trapfinding shenanigans, and the ability to steal lousy little spells. Meh.

Oh, but check this out. The 4th level has spells! Of course, we're not sky-diving all the way to 4th level, we're only dipping. But spells mean spell list, and spell list means easy wand use! How about a wand of Guided Shot then? Who can say no to a swift action to ditch range penalties and imperfect cover-concealment miss? You can get a 50-shot for 740gp, or a 2/day for 840. I'd recommend grabbing a couple of the latter. Plus, for the low-low price of 100gp (150? 300? Sources are divided) you can add a wand chamber on your crossbow and experience firing bolt-action crossbow bolts :smallbiggrin: I'd delay this level-item investment a bit, until the cost is trivial. Right along the Eye seems about right. A shoutout to WamBamSam for getting us this!

So, 2 levels of 'flavored rogue' got us 1d6 sneak attack over what straight rogue would get us, and un-rounded out enemy defenses. Plus 3 Trapfindings. Oh well.

The Icky Part: Staying Not dead

So, as we noted, the GM will eventually grow tired of getting his monsters' heads blown clean off spontaneously. A caster will port over to wrap you up. A warband will bump into you. Your celebrations will wake up a dire bear. And since your team won't be there to save you (in fact, the better you are at your job, the further away your team will be), fighting won't often be an option. So unless you want to be your GM's favorite plot hook, you must invest in tools to stop being there, immediately. And I'm kinda beat on that field. Any ideas?

The above is all nice and dandy, but too complicated by half. During my hiatus, Fuzzy McCoy and I worked on an entirely different build (the core idea was his, and we worked to round it out:

The Sniper Crusader.

Now, we'd better go psionic, so either grab a Xeph (personal choice, any psionic race should do, but their stat modifiers are good and their special ability can help us in a bad spot, as we can outrun most anything) or human with wild/hidden talent, as appropriate. If you're playing with multiclass Xp, we'll need to use the human (by 'need' i mean, do you want to get negative Xp if any? No? Guessed so.), otherwise any psionic class works (Xeph for me). Unless you can get Crusader/wildcard to be your favored class as another psionic race, that's nice. Note also, it's feat-intensive as they come, so you'll need flaws if you can get them. Plus, as always, fractionals are good. Gets us just a +1 BaB, but still.

The build itself is crusader10/fighter1/wizard1/deepwood sniper7

Obviously we're missing a level, we'll get to that.

Now, up to level 10 we're just a crusader. One with kinda wacky feats, but a crusader nonetheless. That's also our capacity for melee combat throughout our 20 levels, more or less, so cherish it :smallbiggrin:

Also note, our Fighter is actually a Targeteer variant from Dragon (310 I believe), but fret not, it's simple and balanced. Targeteers act identically to your average fighter, but get a shorter bonus feat list with 3 special tricks that may be chosen as a feat. We're interested in the Sniper feature: making a full-round attack allows you to expend as many of your attacks as you want (except for the last one) and get an increase of the next attack's threat range on a 1:1 ratio. That's right, we're going for an all-crit build, but don't worry, we're not breaking anything. Your average ubercharger can still humiliate our results, just not from our considerable range. Side note, that trick can work with melee attacks too, strangely, so with the proper weapon we could kinda-sorta fight in melee when maneuvers don't serve us well.

Our wizard is also a variant, this time from Unearthed Arcana. Nothing fancy, just fighter bonus feats at 1st and every 5th level, in exchange for our wizard bonus feats and scribe scroll. *gasp* No bonus feats we won't level up to anyway? No scribbing of spells we lack anyway? Oh, the humanity! :smallbiggrin: Instead, we'll Martial Stance and the reason we became a crusader in the first place: Aura of Perfect Order. It allows us to treat any attack roll as a natural 11 before rolling it. The reason we got into Wizard in the first place, though, is access to a variety of wands, including Guided Shot which we'll be burning through on most all attacks. And Invisibility. A too-far-to-see sniper suddenly wiping them with invisible bolts sends a message.

Ok, so obviously we need to lower our threat range to 11. We'll start with an 18-20 weapon, naturally (couple of choices there, read on), which once keened goes to 15-20. To drop that to 11-20, we need to sacrifice 4 attacks, or a total of 5 attacks. Since we can only do that at 12, and we're full BaB till then (well, mostly), there's 3 of them. And since we'll always need an extra attack even at full +20 BaB (and we won't hit that), Rapid Shot is a solid investment. Items will get us that last attack.

Now, let's talk weapons. One solution is Great Crossbow, from Races of Stone. Hurts a little more than Heavy crossbow, and is 18-20/x2. Plus, everything affecting Heavy crossbows treats them as such, which eases some of the feat nuances. The catch is, it requires EWP, and we're feat-intensive.

Our other choice comes from Dragon Compendium, which is obviously a Compendium of Dragon material, tested to be at book level. It's called Shatter Bolt, special ammo that shatters on impact. 18-10 and x3 no less, needs no feats, so it's generally sweet. The catch, though, is that they're prone to be ruined in melee combat, and at 75gp per bolt, it's what people call too damn expensive. But that's what we're here for.

Enter the Quiver of Anariel, material once posted on a Wizards article. Now, it's been removed, but this is the internet. We have backups. That makes it a freely available, Wizard material :smallbiggrin: its function is simple: it makes arrows, that last only for the proccess of shooting them. It costs 28kgp(29 for masterwork arrows, but that's up to you), and gives special material suggestions for suggested prices (consistently at 100x the extra cost of making the arrow from that material). That would mean we can get a Glass Arrow quiver for 36.5kgp, which is pricey, but not near as much pricey as buying arrows, plus we don't care about them breaking. If you can get this quiver, get this quiver.

Good news everyone, Fuzzy pointed out that targeteer gets us 2 ranged EWPs, which means the above is not nescesary. The bolts are still a powerup, the quiver the way to go, but it's neither necessary nor something to rush.

The other catch with this ammo is that it can't be Magic Weapon'd and Keen Edge'd. But Deepwood Sniper 1 gets us our ammo considered keen, which is a go, and his Magic Weapon affects the crossbow. Might be worth getting into it at 12 instead of 13, delaying wizard to 13, and getting stance with our regular feat.

Now, whatever way you go, let's talk enchants. Whatever you do, grab Distance, the essence of our build. It stacks with the flat Deepwood range increase, so it's great. Quick Loading is also nice, saving us Quick Reload, though how it operates with the Quiver above is up to debate (do the arrows expire while stored in the crossbow's pocket dimension?). Collision is great too, with a flat +5 damage (to be multiplied) but we'll have another main damage source, so consider it but it's not mandatory. That gives us a +1 Distance Quick Loading crossbow (+4 total) for you to slap more tricks on, as you see fit. Psychokinetic burst is an untyped burst-type enchant, also viable. And though not technically an enchantment, if you can get away with a Dragonbone Crossbow, do it for another +50% range (along with distance and far shot, that's a total twice the increment size of our crossbow+DS: 380ft. at 20).

Also add a wand chamber in, for the aforementioned wands. And Gnome Crossbow Sight (or how was it), everyone likes scopes.

You won't need much in the way of armor, probably. You don't plan to get yourself into combat once you can snipe, so grab something cheap, probably even light armor to help with climbing, sneaking, and getting away.

On the matter of of other notable equipment:

24k gp gets us Third Eye Sense, a free-action-scry-location. That's our eye when sniping, to cover our sub-par spotting (where 'par' is our ludicrous range).
12k gp gets us Boots of Speed, our extra attack needed for 10 shots a day. Or, a wand of Extended haste, getting us 16 rounds of sniping. That means they will cover you for 50 encounters, at which point their cost is near-negligible. Or 9k gp gets you 2 eternal wands, 5 rounds each. That's 20 rounds a day (breaks even with boots due to the reloading round), no running out. Finnaly, for an indeterminate bonus price (likely less than boots still) you could find someone who can Extend haste at +0SL, you could get 4 uses of 10 rounds each.
36.5k gp gets you the aforementioned quiver. (You can get it eventually, just not needed yet)

Now, to the trickiest part of the build: Feats.

Feats whose prerequisites mean you can grab them at 1st level (or any time):
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus(heavy Crossbow) ~Note, this affects Great Crossbow as well, but you couldn't pick it up as Great yet.
Hidden Talent (Or Wild Talent, or a psionic race if you prefer it over human-likes and have no multiclass xp penalty)
Rapid reload (best replaced by Quickloading weapon. As above, you'll pick it for Heavy and affect Great Crossbow as well)

Feats that you can take anytime, but have feat prerequisites:

You can get those at level 1 if you like, if you also took the prerequisites. Great if you got flaws, which hopefully you do.

PBS->
Rapid Shot
Far Shot (Why mastery of long-distance shooting demands mastery of short-distance shooting is beyond me)

WF->
Crossbow Sniper (As weapon focus, if it affects Heavies, it affects Greats)

Feats with higher prerequisites:
Psionic Meditation (How we'll fuel a trick further down. Requires 7 ranks in concentration, so that's level 6 at best)

Wounding Attack (The reason we got the above and a psionic character. That's 1 point of Con damage on attack by extending focus (you'll always have one), multiplied by our crits up to 4 or 5, dealing x(Enemy's HD) damage to the enemy. At 20, that's a minimum of 40-50 hp, usually more. At BaB +8, level 9 is when you'd get this)

Martial Stance (could be taken early, but to give us what we need, Aura of Perfect Order, you'll need level 12. Perfect for our Bonus Fighter Wizard Feat)

Extra feats to consider:

So far you got 11 (at worst) and 9 (at best) feats taken, one of which is a bonus feat (or we have an open bonus one, anyway), so there's a couple more to burn. Plus we got a free level. Let's see if we can play with that.

The SA way: If you grab 1 level of rogue (or any sneak-attacker), plus Craven and Telling Blow, all your criticals (a.k.a. all your shots) will inflict your HD plus minor SA damage extra. not sure if the fixed damage gets multiplied (as fixed damage) or not (as sneak attack), but even 20 damage is pretty.

The Psionic way: Grab Psionic Shot, then Fell Shot. The first is basically prerequisites for the second. Target's plating giving you trouble? Give up on your Con damage to make your shot a touch attack! target Con-immune but easy to hit? Add 2d6 damage!...ok, that last one is disappointing, but we're taking it as a prerequisite, might as well use it instead of nothing.

The Warblade way: Not so much a feat path, as an alternate build. Simply put, apart from the crucial AoPO, crusader is useless. Warblade, on the other hand, gives us some very minor bonuses based on Int (best being an int bonus on crit confirmation rolls, which you make all the time), access to some useful-ish fighter-only feats, the ability to use some of our crossbow-oriented feats on our melee weapons (as you can freely retrain them later), plus a better flavor (to me anyway). The price is that we must pay 2 Martial Studies before level 12, so we have the 2 devoted spirit maneuvers needed to get AoPO as a Warblade. Plus your yet-unused psionic focus could get some synergy with the Concentration checks of Diamond Mind.

Then there's the option of spending that extra level we mentioned to a single Crusader level (at 11th or 12th at wizard's expense, perhaps?). Grabbing 2 of your 'starting' crusader maneuvers from the Devoted Spirit school means you can pick the stance with martial Stance, no Studies needed. Sadly, we can't pick the stance via crusader too, because our Crusader initiator level won't be high enough.

Am I forgetting anything?

Xhosant
2014-04-26, 01:56 PM
Reserved just in case.

Forrestfire
2014-04-26, 03:09 PM
My preferred method of spotting when shooting from long range is the Chain of Eyes spell, as you can cast it on a few pets or other party members and use them as scouts. It's a cleric spell, so it costs you nothing but a spell slot or two at the start of the day.

I also suggest Prestige Ranger for the spells that can be cast on your arrows (like Arrowsplit, which may not technically count as "one shot", but will definitely multiply your damage). Also, it lets you get Sniper's Shot without trading a domain for it.

Xhosant
2014-04-26, 03:12 PM
My preferred method of spotting when shooting from long range is the Chain of Eyes spell, as you can cast it on a few pets or other party members and use them as scouts. It's a cleric spell, so it costs you nothing but a spell slot or two at the start of the day.

I also suggest Prestige Ranger for the spells that can be cast on your arrows (like Arrowsplit, which may not technically count as "one shot", but will definitely multiply your damage).

Chain of Eyes is a very nice call, if perhaps tough to slip in (we're only taking a single level of cleric so far, after all). I'll make sure to add it in. I'll dig at PRanger, but stuff like Arrowsplit are the exact flavor that's out off the bat :smalltongue:

Forrestfire
2014-04-26, 03:31 PM
Oh, my bad. I think I misread it as going with cloistered cleric for the entire build. Prestige Ranger allows gets you Hunter's Eye, which gets you another +8d6 sneak attack at higher levels with a Prayer Bead of Karma.

WhamBamSam
2014-04-26, 05:08 PM
Necropolitan Human Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Overwhelming Attack Monk 2/Cloistered Divine Magician Cleric 1/Warblade 5/Bloodstrom Blade 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9 (if Dragon material is allowed, Martial Monk will give you better feats.)
1. Cloistered Cleric 1 - Knowledge Devotion (Cleric), Brutal Throw, Darkstalker (Human)
2. Monk 1 - IUS (Monk), Power Attack (Monk)
3. Monk 2 - Deflect Arrows (Monk), Martial Study (Vanguard Strike)
4. Warblade 1
5. Warblade 2
6. Warblade 3 - Martial Stance (Iron Guard's Glare)
7. Warblade 4
8. Warblade 5 - Point Blank Shot (Warblade)
9. Bloodstorm Blade 1 - Throw Anything (Bloodstorm Blade), Far Shot
10. Bloodstorm Blade 2
11. Ruby Knight Vindicator 1
12. Ruby Knight Vindicator 2 - Power Throw
13. Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
14. Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
15. Ruby Knight Vindicator 5 - Heretic of the Faith (Spell Domain)
16. Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
17. Ruby Knight Vindicator 7
18. Ruby Knight Vindicator 8 - Assume Supernatural Ability (Tomb Mote's Quickness)
19. Ruby Knight Vindicator 9
20. Bloodstorm Blade 3 - Martial Study (Strike of Perfect Clarity)

Takes a while to all come together, needs to burn through spells to keep going all day, and really probably isn't worth it, but here's how it all shakes out. Spell Domain's Anyspell gives you Alter Self in your 3rd level Domain slot. Turn into a Tomb Mote. Assume Supernatural Ability gives you an extra Standard Action every round. Cast Guided Shot, which you got through Divine Magician, with your swift action. Take a full round action to Decisive Strike an animated undead that you have following you around. Your attacks deal double damage for the remainder of the round. As a free action, burn a turn attempt to turn on Divine Fury. You get a +4 on the attack roll, and +1d10 damage on a martial strike initiated this turn. Use your extra standard action to Martial Throw a spear with Strike of Perfect Clarity, adjust Power Throw to taste.

Range: 200ft (Range increment is 20ft*2(Far Shot)*5 (max range at no penalty thanks to guided shot))

Damage: (Weapon damage+Str+Knowledge Devotion+1.5*Power Throw penalty+1d10(Divine Fury)+100 (Strike of Perfect Clarity))*2

Mnemonic Enhancer allows you to get Alter Self back when it expires.

Someone else will probably post something less stupid eventually.

Xhosant
2014-04-26, 05:58 PM
That's... mind-boggingly complex and grand at the same time :smallbiggrin:

I'm a little reserved about using a spear, since it doesn't 'feel' sniper, and the range is a little on the sad side. I was thinking something closer to the neighborhood of 2000ft. And there's the book-flinging. It may cause more than my cheesy version for long range (more on that soon). But a very rushed estimation has it I'm not holding a candle to your damage. Maybe because the extremely generous 20d6 SA is at best just above the fixed 200 part of yours :smallbiggrin:

Now I need a way to throw in Guided Shot as an option... Any good/simple way to get it in wands (or such), besides sorcerer 1 dip? Any classes that get it, besides Wiz/Sorc/Ranger?

Ellowryn
2014-04-26, 06:10 PM
Unfortunately, with only the PhB as mentioned in the Op, rogue is going to be your best bet, with 10d6 sneak attack damage on your attack. Hunter comes in second, with a sorta useful 2nd level spell called Hunter's Eye that gives you sneak attack for 1 round at 1d6/3 CL. Without going beyond PhB there really isn't much you can do to make a true 1 shot kill sniper.

Going beyond the PhB you have classes like Deepwood Sniper from Masters of the Wild and Cragtop Archer from Races of stone that greatly increase your range, and Order of the Bow Initiate from Complete Warrior gives you a standard action ranged attack with bonus damage.

Xhosant
2014-04-26, 06:20 PM
I'll be adding sources as I use them Cragtop Archer is in fact the next point to tackle. I'm aware 20d6 is unrealistic, I used it to point out even that loses to the spear-thrower described. Deepwood sniper was part of an earlier version of the build, meant to crit on every shot and deliver bonus SA damage via Telling Blow. Initiate, sadly, has a much lower range than we can work with.

On another note, Guided Shot eternal wand for 840gp each. Counterproductive, but adding a wand chamber to hold them and bothering to swap them when you burn the day's charges on the 'equipped' one gives you the pleasure of reloading a bolt-action crossbow :smallbiggrin:

Forrestfire
2014-04-26, 07:07 PM
Another option might be to be an artificer, through some clever infusion use and the right feats and items.

Build: Artificer 20

Feats Needed:

Extend Spell
Persistent Spell
Reach Spell


Items Needed (and their base prices):

Normal Metamagic Rod of Chaining (54,000gp)
Minor Schemas of Concurrent Infusions (11,200gp each)


Cast Concurrent Infusions on the first item, infusing it with Spell-Storing Item of the spell in question. They are now a one-use wand of some spell of 4th-level or lower. Repeat this process for each spell you want to have. I am a fan of Divine Power, Guided Shot, Hunter's Eye, and Sniper's Shot. You'll only have four uses of the infusion per day unless you prepare it in higher levels, although picking up some Minor Schemas of Concurrent Infusions (11,200gp each for a 1/day use) to give some more uses per day.

The next step is to pull out your metamagic rod of Chaining and use it to cast a Reach Spell Metamagic Item infusion. This is chained to each of the now spell-storing items, and you'll use it to apply the Persistent Spell feat to them. Then you just trigger each of the items and you have your buffs.

You've got BAB +20, Sneak Attack +6d6, and can shoot at max range for sneak attack all day long. If you feel like never missing ever, get yourself an Elvencraft Bow or a Yuan-Ti Serpent Bow (or a Steel Crossbow) and have it grafted onto your arm by an illithid (costs +1000gp). Now that it's a natural weapon, you can persist Wraithstrike in the same way as the other spells and every attack will be a touch attack. Add on the Hank's Energy Bow enchantment and you'll be able to power attack with it.

The best bit is that, as an artificer, you can make all sorts of trick arrows or other useful things. Heck, you can make everything needed for this yourself, including the illithid graft if you take the feat for it. Your infusions can be used to apply stuff like Bane to your bow or crossbow as needed, and you can make an eternal wand or two of Chain of Eyes for your spotters. If you spend more money on Minor Schemas of Concurrent Infusions to get more buff spells, you'll probably want to pick up some metamagic rods of Extend so you can apply more of them in the window that Spell-Storing Item gives you before you need to actually cast them all.

If you want more sneak attack, you can even spent a feat on Martial Study for a Shadow Hand maneuver, then make an eternal wand of Heroics to get you Assassin's Stance for another +2d6 (or just take the feat yourself).

Xhosant
2014-04-26, 07:16 PM
...Of course artificers can do it. What was I thinking? The mere spell-loading of ammo can make up for damage.

Will work on this build regardless, since nobody's gonna make a primary sniper Artificer, not with the Staffzooka around :smallbiggrin:

torrasque666
2014-04-26, 07:45 PM
I have a semi-related question. I'm building a warforged scout for sniping and plan on having it use an armbow combined with a gnomish sight. My question is, since an armbow fires on its own and doesn't require reloading, can it be used with a shield, specifically a tower shield? The gnomish sight will let it shoot, ironically, 240 at a -2 penalty but 360 fine due to far shot, right? Current Campaign level is 11 which should allow for gloves of dex +6 and the arm bow with 10,000 left.

WhamBamSam
2014-04-26, 07:49 PM
That's... mind-boggingly complex and grand at the same time :smallbiggrin:

I'm a little reserved about using a spear, since it doesn't 'feel' sniper, and the range is a little on the sad side. I was thinking something closer to the neighborhood of 2000ft. And there's the book-flinging. It may cause more than my cheesy version for long range (more on that soon). But a very rushed estimation has it I'm not holding a candle to your damage. Maybe because the extremely generous 20d6 SA is at best just above the fixed 200 part of yours :smallbiggrin:

Now I need a way to throw in Guided Shot as an option... Any good/simple way to get it in wands (or such), besides sorcerer 1 dip? Any classes that get it, besides Wiz/Sorc/Ranger?I used a spear because it could be two-handed and I made the mistake of thinking Power Throw multiplied damage more with two handed weapons like Power Attack does. A light hammer works equally well, and there might be a non-SRD thrown weapon with a larger range increment.

20d6 is strictly less than 200, but my build unfortunately suffers from 20th level build syndrome. With that much buildup, it'd be nice if the payoff at least one-shotted the average CR20 monster (409.33HP according to Optimization by the Numbers). Though I suppose it might get there with items, and really it's not so bad. If you have a Lesser Rod of Extend, you can keep Guided Shot up through the second round, and recover Strike of Perfect Clarity with RKV's Sudden Recovery and your swift action, meaning you take the shot again next turn.

Distant Shot would fix the range issue, but it's epic, so the only ways you might get it are 1) Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold, which has some other cheeses which might help this trick, or 2) if the Epic Fighter Bonus Feats list counts as a subset of the Fighter Bonus Feats list, then Martial Monk can snag it, ignoring prereqs. I don't believe the latter to actually be the case by RAW, but I might try to swing a Kobold cheese build later.

Sword of the Arcane Order on a Paladin will get you low level Sor/Wiz spells. Incidentally, that gives me an idea. It'll use a lot of similar tricks to the last build, just because Decisive Strike to multiply the damage is one of the few things I can think of to make a single attack worth it.

Necropolitan Human Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Overwhelming Attack Monk 2/Mystic Fire Knight Paladin 5/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 2/Fist of Raziel 9

1. Soulknife 1 - Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus (Mind Blade) (Soulknife), Wild Talent (Soulknife)
2. Soulknife 2
3. Monk 1 - Zen Archery, Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk), Power Attack (Monk)
4. Monk 2 - Deflect Arrows (Monk)
5. Paladin 1
6. Paladin 2 - Serenity
7. Paladin 3
8. Paladin 4
9. Soulbow 1 - Servant of the Heavens
10. Soulbow 2
11. Fist of Raziel 1
12. Fist of Raziel 2 - Ranged Smite Evil
13. Fist of Raziel 3
14. Fist of Raziel 4 - Sanctify Martial Strike (Mind Blade)
15. Fist of Raziel 5 - Sword of the Arcane Order
16. Fist of Raziel 6
17. Fist of Raziel 7
18. Fist of Raziel 8 - Assume Supernatural Ability (Tomb Mote's Quickness)
19. Fist of Raziel 9
20. Paladin 5

Same schtick as before, using Decisive Strike on a Summoned Monster or maybe your special mount if you can find a way to make him immune to bludgeoning (he could share Polymorph Self with you) to double the damage on your shot, but this time you use Ranged Smite Evil to fire a Mind Arrow for bonus damage. Unfortunately, the damage isn't great, just 2*(Wis(Soulbow)+14(Smite Evil)+2d6(Holy)+1(Sanctify Martial Strike)) or 2*(Wis+14+2d8+1d4) against Evil Outsiders with a burst dealing 2d6 to up to 5 additional targets within 30ft, or 2d8 if they're Evil Outsiders. On the bright side you will pretty much never miss and can fire from the distance you're looking for, and auto-confirms crits on the rare occasions when you threaten.

If you can take 2 flaws and a trip to the Otyugh Hole, then you can qualify for a 1 level dip in Shiba Protector as well and get an extra +Wis to Attack and Damage.

Xhosant
2014-04-27, 01:34 PM
Guide continued, kudos given out, and a question posed.

Plus, gotta get around to writing sources. Bummer.

WhamBamSam
2014-04-27, 07:59 PM
A few things on the revised OP.

1. As I said in my above post, Epic Fighter Bonus Feats seem to be a distinct list from Fighter Bonus Feats rather than a subset. I would consider taking Distant Shot as a Dragonwrought Kobold much less dubious (they can qualify to take it with their 18th level feat).

2. Psychic Rogues are Int based, not Wis based. They might be an interesting class to toy around with though. Shame they don't have easy access to all the good PsyWar archery powers from CPsi or feats to throw around on Expanded Knowledge like PsyWars do.

3. There are a few things you can trade out Trapfinding for on a Rogue (seeing as you're getting redundant copies of it, as you noted). If you can go Lesser Drow (ie if you don't need the extra feat from being Human) then the Drow ACF for Poison use is probably the best one.

4. Have you tried working in Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) into your build. Or just two levels of Swordsage to pick up Assassin's Stance?

5. How about Craven? That's an extra character level's worth of damage.

6. Cragtop Archer is a good find. It seems to need some serious op-fu to get its damage where it really needs to be to kill someone with Horizon Shot, but it's designed with your goals in mind. Deepwood Sniper is another PrC which can increase your range (increases range increment by 10ft/level after all other range increases have been accounted for). Deepwood Sniper also does a few other useful things for negating partial concealment and critically hitting.

Now that I've helped you with the build you want to make, I'm going to spend the rest of the post on my sniper builds. Here's a Kobold cheese build for the Decisive Strike/Martial Throw/Strike of Perfect Clarity trick. It's very feat intensive and needs Flaws. It'll take a permissive DM to allow it, but considering what the Sorcerer base could do it's not that bad. The main trick which comes online sort of at 15 and then for real at 18 is pretty potent, and it ends up getting Strike of Righteous Vitality at 13 completely by accident, but other than that...

Venerable Wyrm of War (maneuver variant) Dragonwrought Kobold Decisive Strike Monk 1/Dragonblood Sorcerer 2/Singer of Concordance 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 7/Bloodstorm Blade 3/Unseen Seer 4

1. Monk 1 - Dragonwrought, Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk), Stunning Fist (Monk), Point Blank Shot (Flaw), Far Shot (Flaw)
2. Sorcerer 1 - Draconic Heritage (Gold*)
3. Sorcerer 2 - Martial Study (Steely Strike)
4. Singer of Concordance 1
5. Singer of Concordance 2 - Knowledge Devotion
6. Singer of Concordance 3 - Martial Stance (Punishing Stance)
7. Jade Phoenix Mage 1
8. Jade Phoenix Mage 2
9. Jade Phoenix Mage 3 - Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer)
10. Jade Phoenix Mage 4
11. Jade Phoenix Mage 5
12. Jade Phoenix Mage 6 - Martial Stance (Absolute Steel)
13. Jade Phoenix Mage 7
14. Bloodstorm Blade 1 - Throw Anything
15. Bloodstorm Blade 2 - Martial Study (Finishing Move)
16. Bloodstorm Blade 3 - Martial Study (Strike of Perfect Clarity)
17. Unseen Seer 1
18. Unseen Seer 2 - Distant Shot
19. Unseen Seer 3
20. Unseen Seer 4

*I think this is the one that gives spot as a class skill.


A DM using Tome of Battle might instead give wyrms of war access to maneuvers and stances from the Tiger Claw discipline. Treat the dragon’s sorcerer level as his initiator level when determining known and readied stances and maneuvers. To learn a maneuver or stance, a dragon must permanently sacrifice a sorcerer spell slot of the same level.The Wyrm of War variant is not terribly well written, but my interpretation is that this means the IL is normally set equal to the dragon's effective Sorcerer level and does not under ordinary circumstances stack with anything. However, the ToB PrCs explicitly add their class level to your IL, so you can double dip with JPM to hit the IL necessary to take Martial Study feats for high level maneuvers and stances in disciplines beyond just Tiger Claw. Martial Study limits the number of times you can take it to 3, but martial stance says you can take it more than once without giving you a limit, and stances count as maneuvers for the purpose of meeting maneuver prereqs, so you can make it to Strike of Perfect Clarity (and get it a few levels early). You also get Distant Shot, because as an older than Old Dragon, you can take Epic feats.

Alter Self/Polymorph/Draconic Polymorph into something good, Decisive Strike an animated skeleton as a full-round action, cast Sniper's Shot as a swift, then Celerity as an immediate, and Martial Throw a Fierce weapon with Strike of Perfect Clarity from a range of yes into some poor schmuck's stupid fat face dealing 2*(Str+Dex+100+2d6+Knowledge Devotion). A high CL wand of (ideally Persisted) Hunter's Eye will increase this further, and some manner of Rod of Extend or Rod of Persist would be nice.

With the Chaos Shuffle/Psychic Reformation, I could fit in Darkstalker, Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade for an additional 2*(Dex+2d6) to damage, as well as Draconic Resevoir (temporarily) to undergo the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and get +1 Sorc casting, Lesser Dragonmark+Mark of the Dauntless to negate the daze effect from Celerity, and Craven for extra damage.

I was going to try shoehorning two levels of Bloodstorm Blade onto a Bardblade to Martial Throw Strike of Perfect Clarity, but I realized that a) you can only do it at moderate range, because it separates your party from your bardic music, and b) it wasn't going to work out anyway.





It's also occurred to me that if you take flaws and such to get a level of Shiba Protector in, the Paladin build becomes completely Wis SAD, and hence has no incentive not to go Venerable. Also, Serenity isn't actually necessary, since all it really does is add Wis to attack rolls again, what with Turn Undead being traded away for Mystic Fire Knight. Here's a version with flaws and the Otyugh Hole in play. Also, bloodline cheese (if it works) will get you a +12 ((+3 effective Paladin level+3 effective Fist of Raziel level)*2) to smite damage and some nice other goodies, like feats you need as bonus feats. Also, you don't have a Special Mount to punch so you probably have to use an animated skeleton, but ah well. Your fists are crazy weak and skeletons have DR bludgeoning, so you probably won't need to animate graves very often. The build already needs to reconcile Necropolitan with Paladin, so what's one more undead component?

Venerable Necropolitan Lesser Aasimar or Human Soulknife 2/Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Monk 2/Mystic Fire Knight Paladin 6/Soulbow 2/Shiba Protector 1/Fist of Raziel 7
1. Soulknife 1 - Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Mind Blade) (Soulknife), Wild Talent (Soulknife), Combat Expertise (Flaw), Far Shot (Flaw), Darkstalker (if human)
2. Soulknife 2
3. Monk 1 - Zen Archery, Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk), Power Attack (Monk), Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)
4. Monk 2 - Deflect Arrows (Monk)
5. Paladin 1
6. Paladin 2 - Alertness
7. Paladin 3
8. Paladin 4
9. Soulbow 1 - Servant of the Heavens
10. Soulbow 2
11. Shiba Protector 1
12. Paladin 5 - Ranged Smite Evil
13. Fist of Raziel 1
14. Fist of Raziel 2
15. Fist of Raziel 3 - Sword of the Arcane Order
16. Fist of Raziel 4 - Sanctify Martial Strike (Mind Blade)
17. Fist of Raziel 5
18. Fist of Raziel 6 - Assume Supernatural Ability (Tomb Mote's Quickness)
19. Fist of Raziel 7
20. Paladin 6

Other thoughts about things and stuff:

Hunter's Mercy is a Ranger 1 spell that makes the first bow shot that hits within a turn of casting crit. That's another spell that might be relevant to your interests.

I'd really like to try a PsyWar or PsyRogue build using some of the nifty archery powers like Extend Range and Psychokinetic Weapon, but I don't have anything to measure up to Metamorphasis into an Arrow Demon on a sniper build.

While Factotum archers tend to be all about Cunning Surge, you could probably get something pretty impressive by pumping IP into Cunning Strike and (if you take Factotum all the way to level 19) getting Sneak Attack through Cunning Brilliance. You also get all the relevant spells from the Sor/Wiz list.

ben-zayb
2014-04-27, 08:47 PM
If you're going for the simplicity route, is there any reason not to go Scout 4 / Ranger 16, or Scout X / Ranger Y + cleric etc. dips? It doesn't get any simpler than that IMO.

WinWin
2014-04-27, 09:10 PM
Arcane Archer is a classic dip.

Requires either a Half-Elf with flaws in order to get Human Heritage and Able Learner feats at first level, or a Changeling with Racial Emulation (Elf) in order to qualify for both Chameleon and Arcane Archer.

You really only need the Imbue Arrow feature. Combine with Arrowsplit and Hunter's Mercy, use a few tricks to add Hunter's Eye and/or Sniper's shot.

Not a low level build. Has a fairly impressive mid/high level nova potential though, depending on what spell you elect to imbue your arrows with.

WhamBamSam
2014-04-27, 09:44 PM
Arcane Archer is a classic dip.

Requires either a Half-Elf with flaws in order to get Human Heritage and Able Learner feats at first level, or a Changeling with Racial Emulation (Elf) in order to qualify for both Chameleon and Arcane Archer.

You really only need the Imbue Arrow feature. Combine with Arrowsplit and Hunter's Mercy, use a few tricks to add Hunter's Eye and/or Sniper's shot.

Not a low level build. Has a fairly impressive mid/high level nova potential though, depending on what spell you elect to imbue your arrows with.Piggy Knowles came up with Half-Elf Paragon as a way of getting an extra feat at 1st level for both Human Heritage and Able Learner. His Archer Build Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?284283-Piggy-Knowles-Archer-Build-Thread) is probably worth reading for anyone trying to do any sort of ranged build, though it seems like the OP already has some passing familiarity with the Murderous Sniper, which is the most relevant of the builds therein to the discussion at hand.

Xhosant
2014-04-28, 03:23 AM
1. As I said in my above post, Epic Fighter Bonus Feats seem to be a distinct list from Fighter Bonus Feats rather than a subset. I would consider taking Distant Shot as a Dragonwrought Kobold much less dubious (they can qualify to take it with their 18th level feat).

Well, getting epic feat pre-epic is cheesy enough for me not to recommend it, no matter the means :smallbiggrin: That would cost us a couple feats, which we can't really afford, but if for some reason Dragonwrought flies with your GM and Martial Monk doesn't, I'd probably pick it.


2. Psychic Rogues are Int based, not Wis based. They might be an interesting class to toy around with though. Shame they don't have easy access to all the good PsyWar archery powers from CPsi or feats to throw around on Expanded Knowledge like PsyWars do.

Nice catch there! I'll get to fixing it. Psywar's interesting, since at the cost of 1d6 sneak attack delayed by 1 level, you get a bonus feat, and can use wisdom instead of inteligence to get PP. But we can't fuel the powers without investment, sadly.


3. There are a few things you can trade out Trapfinding for on a Rogue (seeing as you're getting redundant copies of it, as you noted). If you can go Lesser Drow (ie if you don't need the extra feat from being Human) then the Drow ACF for Poison use is probably the best one.

Poison use is, I believe, cross-race. If only we had ACF for our rogue variants too, we'd be able to trade 2 instead of 1 :smallbiggrin:


4. Have you tried working in Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) into your build. Or just two levels of Swordsage to pick up Assassin's Stance?
5. How about Craven? That's an extra character level's worth of damage.

Intention was that the remaining levels of rogue be done with whatever you'd do to boost a rogue's SA normally. That means Craven, Assassin's, and stacking classes that get SA on first level.


6. Cragtop Archer is a good find. It seems to need some serious op-fu to get its damage where it really needs to be to kill someone with Horizon Shot, but it's designed with your goals in mind. Deepwood Sniper is another PrC which can increase your range (increases range increment by 10ft/level after all other range increases have been accounted for). Deepwood Sniper also does a few other useful things for negating partial concealment and critically hitting.

Good recommendation, but the range increase isn't notable without us investing there. The crit boost is good, but we got partial concealment out by Guided shot. I'll add it on the notes, eventually.


The Wyrm of War variant is not terribly well written, but my interpretation is that this means the IL is normally set equal to the dragon's effective Sorcerer level and does not under ordinary circumstances stack with anything. However, the ToB PrCs explicitly add their class level to your IL, so you can double dip with JPM to hit the IL necessary to take Martial Study feats for high level maneuvers and stances in disciplines beyond just Tiger Claw.

This. Explain me this. You just rediscovered the Chalice of Gish, the 9o9 JPM build. Perhaps.

Can you PM me about Wyrm of War (sources, content, whatever).


If you're going for the simplicity route, is there any reason not to go Scout 4 / Ranger 16, or Scout X / Ranger Y + cleric etc. dips? It doesn't get any simpler than that IMO.

If I read that correctly, Sniper's Shot won't help you use skirmish by RAW. RAI probably does, but you still need to roll around while sniping, and that's not terribly thematic. Not to mention you need your move action for reloading.


Arcane Archer is a classic dip.

I opted to pass on it, because it demands area spells, and that doesn't exactly match flavor with me. Which is a shame, it'd have been a great asset.

EDIT: Well, poop. Just realized we can't take Psionic&Fell shot before Cleric, since we won't have PBS. Back to the drawing board I guess, will try to systematize the feats more. Also, EWP: Great Crossbow gives us a little more damage/crit and a net +60 range increment. So it's pretty good.

WhamBamSam
2014-04-28, 10:49 AM
Well, getting epic feat pre-epic is cheesy enough for me not to recommend it, no matter the means :smallbiggrin: That would cost us a couple feats, which we can't really afford, but if for some reason Dragonwrought flies with your GM and Martial Monk doesn't, I'd probably pick it.

...

This. Explain me this. You just rediscovered the Chalice of Gish, the 9o9 JPM build. Perhaps.

Can you PM me about Wyrm of War (sources, content, whatever). I consider most Dragonwrought cheese acceptable. There are a few corner cases that I ban, but generally I think they're a fun, flavorful race that are powerful, but not super unbalanced in most circumstances, that the weird options they have access to are necessary to make some concepts work, and that freedom of concept is one of 3.5's great strengths which I shouldn't limit without good reason.

You're right that it's probably a conversation best taken to PMs though. Too much talk about that sort of thing will take your thread in a direction you don't want it to go.




Nice catch there! I'll get to fixing it. Psywar's interesting, since at the cost of 1d6 sneak attack delayed by 1 level, you get a bonus feat, and can use wisdom instead of inteligence to get PP. But we can't fuel the powers without investment, sadly.The big archery power for what you're going for seems to be Extend Range, which you could conceivably get enough UPD to use reliably with a dorje as a PsyRogue.


Poison use is, I believe, cross-race. If only we had ACF for our rogue variants too, we'd be able to trade 2 instead of 1 :smallbiggrin:It might well be. I was looking at a big list of ACFs that had it listed as "Drow Rogue," but there's a lot of stuff like that in that book (Hit and Run Fighter, anyone?)

And it's kind of a shame PsyRogue didn't get more support in general. It's still a decent enough class, but there are more powers that it really should have on its list, and a few more ACFs to pick and choose from would be nice.


Intention was that the remaining levels of rogue be done with whatever you'd do to boost a rogue's SA normally. That means Craven, Assassin's, and stacking classes that get SA on first level.Speaking of classes that advance Sneak Attack, an Assassin (or Avenger) build could be a good way to go. Pumping the Death Attack save might be a more reliable way of snuffing someone than trying to get Sneak Attack damage to do it with one shot.

In a similar vein is the Marrulurk, a 3HD/1 LA Monstrous Humanoid that gives some sneak attack and a Cha based racial Death Attack.


I opted to pass on it, because it demands area spells, and that doesn't exactly match flavor with me. Which is a shame, it'd have been a great asset.

EDIT: Well, poop. Just realized we can't take Psionic&Fell shot before Cleric, since we won't have PBS. Back to the drawing board I guess, will try to systematize the feats more. Also, EWP: Great Crossbow gives us a little more damage/crit and a net +60 range increment. So it's pretty good.If you're a Cloistered Cleric (and why wouldn't you be if you're only staying for one level, free Knowledge Devotion is a free bonus to attack rolls and damage), then you can take Cleric at your first level without losing so many skill points. It's only 8 less relative to Rogue. If you were looking to take it at level 1 you're out of luck, but your current build stub seems to be taking Cleric before any of the other dips anyway.

Xhosant
2014-04-28, 10:59 AM
You're right that it's probably a conversation best taken to PMs though. Too much talk about that sort of thing will take your thread in a direction you don't want it to go.

you may have heard of Sinfire Titan. Her guide on Swordsage made passing mention of a JPM build that had both lvl9 spells and maneuvers, but never explained. We ran a thread here some months ago trying to re-invent it, to no avail, until I managed to contact her and learn she had forgotten the specifics...

So, I wanna know all about that Wyrm of War :smallbiggrin:




Speaking of classes that advance Sneak Attack, an Assassin (or Avenger) build could be a good way to go. Pumping the Death Attack save might be a more reliable way of snuffing someone than trying to get Sneak Attack damage to do it with one shot.

In a similar vein is the Marrulurk, a 3HD/1 LA Monstrous Humanoid that gives some sneak attack and a Cha based racial Death Attack.

I recall turning down assassin's death attack for... some reason? But i'll re-investigate.


If you're a Cloistered Cleric (and why wouldn't you be if you're only staying for one level, free Knowledge Devotion is a free bonus to attack rolls and damage), then you can take Cleric at your first level without losing so many skill points. It's only 8 less relative to Rogue. If you were looking to take it at level 1 you're out of luck, but your current build stub seems to be taking Cleric before any of the other dips anyway.

Good thinking, though we're dropping Knowledge Devotion to spare us a feat (via the other 2 domains).

WhamBamSam
2014-04-28, 12:09 PM
you may have heard of Sinfire Titan. Her guide on Swordsage made passing mention of a JPM build that had both lvl9 spells and maneuvers, but never explained. We ran a thread here some months ago trying to re-invent it, to no avail, until I managed to contact her and learn she had forgotten the specifics...

So, I wanna know all about that Wyrm of War :smallbiggrin:Variant Wyrm of War. It's also possible that a Sublime Chord can pull it off if you can cheese entry via Sanctum Spell, say Bard 4/Initiator 5/JPM 1/Sublime Chord 2/JPM +8. I don't know of any other way that works, and the Sublime Chord build means the only 9th level manevers you can get without the Chaos Shuffle, Psychic Reformation, or Heroics for Martial Study are Strike of Righteous Vitality (decent enough I suppose, but I want Tornado Throw or War Master's Charge dammit) and Wyrm's Flame (more like Wyrm's lame amirite?)


I recall turning down assassin's death attack for... some reason? But i'll re-investigate.One save is not as good as multiple saves, and pumping the DC high enough to be a real threat might be problematic, but a Factotum/Assassin or Cleric or Archivist/Assassin/Black Flame Zealot might be a decent way to go for a sniper. Maybe sneak in Prestige Ranger for Hunter's Eye/Hunter's Mercy.


Good thinking, though we're dropping Knowledge Devotion to spare us a feat (via the other 2 domains).I'm not sure that works the way Divine Magician is worded, since it says something to the effect of only getting one domain rather than losing one domain if I recall correctly. You can apply Cloistered after Divine Magician and get the Knowledge Domain to bring yourself back up to 2, and then back down to 1 again by trading it for Knowledge Devotion, but if you apply Cloistered Cleric first, you might lose two domains to Divine Magician by RAW.

Xhosant
2014-04-28, 12:19 PM
One save is not as good as multiple saves, and pumping the DC high enough to be a real threat might be problematic, but a Factotum/Assassin or Cleric or Archivist/Assassin/Black Flame Zealot might be a decent way to go for a sniper. Maybe sneak in Prestige Ranger for Hunter's Eye/Hunter's Mercy.

I'm not sure that works the way Divine Magician is worded, since it says something to the effect of only getting one domain rather than losing one domain if I recall correctly. You can apply Cloistered after Divine Magician and get the Knowledge Domain to bring yourself back up to 2, and then back down to 1 again by trading it for Knowledge Devotion, but if you apply Cloistered Cleric first, you might lose two domains to Divine Magician by RAW.

Ok, i remembered, it was because it needs melee weapon attack :smallbiggrin:

I believe the 'tradeable Knowledge' issue is a long-standing debate. That's why I left 2 cleric versions available, depending on how the DM rules it. Long story short, if you need you can drop Undeath (or whatever you took) and get Extra Turning manually.

Kazudo
2014-04-28, 12:26 PM
Necropolitan Human Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Overwhelming Attack Monk 2/Cloistered Divine Magician Cleric 1/Warblade 5/Bloodstrom Blade 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9 (if Dragon material is allowed, Martial Monk will give you better feats.)
1. Cloistered Cleric 1 - Knowledge Devotion (Cleric), Brutal Throw, Darkstalker (Human)
2. Monk 1 - IUS (Monk), Power Attack (Monk)
3. Monk 2 - Deflect Arrows (Monk), Martial Study (Vanguard Strike)
4. Warblade 1
5. Warblade 2
6. Warblade 3 - Martial Stance (Iron Guard's Glare)
7. Warblade 4
8. Warblade 5 - Point Blank Shot (Warblade)
9. Bloodstorm Blade 1 - Throw Anything (Bloodstorm Blade), Far Shot
10. Bloodstorm Blade 2
11. Ruby Knight Vindicator 1
12. Ruby Knight Vindicator 2 - Power Throw
13. Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
14. Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
15. Ruby Knight Vindicator 5 - Heretic of the Faith (Spell Domain)
16. Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
17. Ruby Knight Vindicator 7
18. Ruby Knight Vindicator 8 - Assume Supernatural Ability (Tomb Mote's Quickness)
19. Ruby Knight Vindicator 9
20. Bloodstorm Blade 3 - Martial Study (Strike of Perfect Clarity)

Takes a while to all come together, needs to burn through spells to keep going all day, and really probably isn't worth it, but here's how it all shakes out. Spell Domain's Anyspell gives you Alter Self in your 3rd level Domain slot. Turn into a Tomb Mote. Assume Supernatural Ability gives you an extra Standard Action every round. Cast Guided Shot, which you got through Divine Magician, with your swift action. Take a full round action to Decisive Strike an animated undead that you have following you around. Your attacks deal double damage for the remainder of the round. As a free action, burn a turn attempt to turn on Divine Fury. You get a +4 on the attack roll, and +1d10 damage on a martial strike initiated this turn. Use your extra standard action to Martial Throw a spear with Strike of Perfect Clarity, adjust Power Throw to taste.

Range: 200ft (Range increment is 20ft*2(Far Shot)*5 (max range at no penalty thanks to guided shot))

Damage: (Weapon damage+Str+Knowledge Devotion+1.5*Power Throw penalty+1d10(Divine Fury)+100 (Strike of Perfect Clarity))*2

Mnemonic Enhancer allows you to get Alter Self back when it expires.

Someone else will probably post something less stupid eventually.

I've got something stupider if it counts. Just layer on Incarnate Dustform Creature a few dozen times to get +4 STR +2 CHA every time. Incarnate Construct lets you reroll every null value every time you use it and puts any 0 stat to 3 every time, if I remember correctly (away from books). The CHA boost gives you additional Turn attempts for RKV.

EDIT: Additionally, if you start off with a large race with LA buyoff (Half-Ogre, maybe) then all of your weapon damages go up a size category.

WhamBamSam
2014-04-28, 12:47 PM
I've got something stupider if it counts. Just layer on Incarnate Dustform Creature a few dozen times to get +4 STR +2 CHA every time. Incarnate Construct lets you reroll every null value every time you use it and puts any 0 stat to 3 every time, if I remember correctly (away from books). The CHA boost gives you additional Turn attempts for RKV.

EDIT: Additionally, if you start off with a large race with LA buyoff (Half-Ogre, maybe) then all of your weapon damages go up a size category.Aw come on, it's not really as cheesy as an infinite str template stack/Cancer Mage/whatever is it?

Tomb Motes are small, as are Chokers, which were my first choice until I saw that I couldn't swing the build on a Synad without the extra feat from being human. So if you want to use Alter Self/Assume Supernatural Ability to nab Quickness, you need to be an at most medium undead or aberration. So Half-Ogre doesn't work, but Goliath or Half-Giant probably does if you can also take a flaw to make up the feat.

EDIT:

Ok, i remembered, it was because it needs melee weapon attack :smallbiggrin:

I believe the 'tradeable Knowledge' issue is a long-standing debate. That's why I left 2 cleric versions available, depending on how the DM rules it. Long story short, if you need you can drop Undeath (or whatever you took) and get Extra Turning manually.It needs to be a sneak attack with a melee weapon. So you might be able to death attack from range with an Elvencraft Bow. Ask your DM.

Xhosant
2014-04-28, 01:22 PM
It needs to be a sneak attack with a melee weapon. So you might be able to death attack from range with an Elvencraft Bow. Ask your DM.

I could, but that would mean abandoning the flavour of the crossbow and hindering my range greatly, plus beg the question of 'why not multishot after it', so I'll have to pass. Although it IS spectacularly sniper-ish.

Fuzzy McCoy
2014-04-29, 12:06 PM
One build I came up with involved targeteer fighter and Crusader, of all things. The idea was going Crusader 10/Fighter 2/Deepwood sniper 8 (not necessarily in that exact order) to pick up proficiency with a great crossbow, the sniper ability of targeteer, and aura of perfect order. It isn't completely reliable until 13, unfortunately, but at that point you can take a single shot and get a guaranteed critical threat, and should have a high enough attack to confirm the critical. When you crit, you're doing 4d8 + stuff at 13, 6d8 + stuff at 14, and 8d8 + stuff at 19. With Crossbow Sniper and taking Shape Soulmeld for Sighting gloves you can boost your damage pretty significantly. Alternately, wield a large great crossbow and it's 6d8, 9d8, and 12d8.

As a bonus, you're still pretty good in melee. Also, if you're worried that you won't be able to get access to a self-loading crossbow (Arms and Equipment Guide), then a heavy repeating crossbow works as well, though you'll have slightly worse damage.

Darkweave31
2014-04-29, 01:23 PM
I could, but that would mean abandoning the flavour of the crossbow and hindering my range greatly, plus beg the question of 'why not multishot after it', so I'll have to pass. Although it IS spectacularly sniper-ish.

Frankly, pretty-much everything that has been presented so far begs the question 'why not multishot'... exception being the ToB throwing build using the maneuver... I feel like it would be prudent to be able to make a full attack, at least to be able to hit multiple targets before they can react. If your sniper build is good enough at dealing damage you won't need more than one shot for each opponent, but that doesn't mean you should forego the ability to make a full attack.

Artificer is a really good suggestion for this concept since it can very easily gain access to the variety of relatively low level spells that buff archery a lot. Not to mention they can get a truly impressive magic weapon. Use their infusions to place bane on the crossbow for whatever you're facing, spell storing bolts with combust (or other fun spell) placed in them, hunter's eye, sniper shot, grave strike, arrowsplit etc. and have fun blowing away enemies. Just because they can go staffzooka doesn't mean they have to do it. Optimization is measured on a spectrum.

Another suggestion... Arrow of Bone (wizard/sorcerer 7, Spell Compendium) costs 50gp to cast and gives the caster an arrow/bolt/thrown weapon that becomes a Save or Die. Not a bad choice.

Xhosant
2014-04-29, 02:13 PM
Frankly, pretty-much everything that has been presented so far begs the question 'why not multishot'... exception being the ToB throwing build using the maneuver... I feel like it would be prudent to be able to make a full attack, at least to be able to hit multiple targets before they can react. If your sniper build is good enough at dealing damage you won't need more than one shot for each opponent, but that doesn't mean you should forego the ability to make a full attack.

Artificer is a really good suggestion for this concept since it can very easily gain access to the variety of relatively low level spells that buff archery a lot. Not to mention they can get a truly impressive magic weapon. Use their infusions to place bane on the crossbow for whatever you're facing, spell storing bolts with combust (or other fun spell) placed in them, hunter's eye, sniper shot, grave strike, arrowsplit etc. and have fun blowing away enemies. Just because they can go staffzooka doesn't mean they have to do it. Optimization is measured on a spectrum.

Another suggestion... Arrow of Bone (wizard/sorcerer 7, Spell Compendium) costs 50gp to cast and gives the caster an arrow/bolt/thrown weapon that becomes a Save or Die. Not a bad choice.

It's not about optimization, it's about sending a message :smallbiggrin: in all seriousness though, I consider multiattack to both be against what we stand for, and messes up the use of heavy/great crossbow badly.

Arrow of Bone... can you say 'arcane staff' with me? :smallbiggrin: I'd love for some help to collect ammo spells that could be loaded on a staff etc.

Onwards, I'm scrapping Psyrogue for Psywarrior and have a build near-finished to be uploaded. Somewhat open-ended at high levels, too. I'm rather satisfied we can hit ranges twice the RL achievable (with a bowstring no less). What I still need help with is ensuring we have a range of escape tricks.

Xhosant
2014-05-06, 01:38 PM
Well, long time no post, but that should change any hour now. Gone and made the build, and replaced PsyRogue with PsyWar for extra feats.

Ansem
2014-05-06, 02:04 PM
Will it do over 200 average damage per turn at lvl 20?

Xhosant
2014-05-06, 02:50 PM
Assuming maximum multi-classing-SA at high levels, it gets about 11d6 SA, give or take, so that's 39 average there. Another 9 average by weapon, that's 48. So, unless enchants turn the tide.... no :smallsigh:

Ok, since you touched that subject: we can use most of the range/utility chassis elsewhere. Can you think of any ways to load heavy riding damage, single-target, preferably mundane or without severe 'ammo' limitations, on a single great crossbow bolt? :smallconfused:

EDIT: Switching to heavy repeating crossbow wouldn't hurt the important parts of the build, and i think I can deal with a clip rifle (I know, not strictly 1 shot, but it's not the spamfest that archery is). That likely tripples the damage (or more, depending on what BAB and accuracy we can muster) However, we'd still benefit greatly from extra damage, so any ideas are welcome.

Fuzzy McCoy
2014-05-06, 04:52 PM
One build I came up with involved targeteer fighter and Crusader, of all things. The idea was going Crusader 10/Fighter 2/Deepwood sniper 8 (not necessarily in that exact order) to pick up proficiency with a great crossbow, the sniper ability of targeteer, and aura of perfect order. It isn't completely reliable until 13, unfortunately, but at that point you can take a single shot and get a guaranteed critical threat, and should have a high enough attack to confirm the critical. When you crit, you're doing 4d8 + stuff at 13, 6d8 + stuff at 14, and 8d8 + stuff at 19. With Crossbow Sniper and taking Shape Soulmeld for Sighting gloves you can boost your damage pretty significantly. Alternately, wield a large great crossbow and it's 6d8, 9d8, and 12d8.

As a bonus, you're still pretty good in melee. Also, if you're worried that you won't be able to get access to a self-loading crossbow (Arms and Equipment Guide), then a heavy repeating crossbow works as well, though you'll have slightly worse damage.

This gets the necessary damage, is single shot, and while it's just critical damage and no sneak attack, I think it's pretty good. The +stuff there is generally pretty high. Is there a reason you don't want to use this?

Xhosant
2014-05-06, 05:14 PM
That's... actually pretty good :smallbiggrin: Sorry I missed it. I'll try to work it through and figure its details (and room for changes), so any help with that is welcome :smalltongue:

EDIT: Nevermind, the question here was answered.

EDIT2: Is there an easier way than 'grab a psionic level' to get access to psionic focus, via a feat or whatnot? That'd let us add the 'touch attack' part. Tempted to trim here or there to get a caster1 (spellthief, maybe?) for access to wands of Guided shot, although UMD exists too. The whole 'divine' plus 'lawful' part of the flavor isn't what i'd like in my character, but I can live with that :smallbiggrin: Blame it on the 'perfect shot' or some such nonsense :smallbiggrin:

Fuzzy McCoy
2014-05-07, 11:30 AM
No worries, it can be easy to miss stuff. If you're DM allows level buyoff, getting the phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) template is pretty damn amazing. Otherwise, you don't need the last level of Deepwood sniper, so you could grab a psionic level there.

There's always the wild talent/hidden talent feats if you're playing with flaws, but that's about it. Being able to make it a touch attack is a pretty vast improvement on my build.

Xhosant
2014-05-07, 11:47 AM
I think it's the Wild/Hidden Talent path for us, since I'd like to keep access to Guided Shot, so that's where the extra level goes (so you're attacking against a AC of 10+deflection (i think), ignoring low cover/concealment).

I kinda get lost on the math of the sure-crit, if you could demonstrate that'd be helpful. Plus, the most we can prune the build to fit extras in the better, so I'll work on getting the IL sooner. Would love to fit a cragtop3 in there, get us a +1.5X range on most our shots.

Fuzzy McCoy
2014-05-08, 12:04 PM
Crusader 10 is mostly there to grab the necessary IL for aura of perfect order, since as a 6th level stance it requires an IL of 11. What Aura of Perfect Order (AoPO) does is make one roll/round an 11 on the die. With Targeteer fighter (Dragon# 310), you can get an ability called sniper in place of a feat; basically, you sacrifices attacks to boost the critical threat range of your ranged weapon.

So with a great crossbow, we start with an 18-20 range. At level 13, when you get AoPO and the Keen ability from Deepwood Sniper, you've got a BAB of 13/8/3. So you can sacrifice the first two attacks to boost your threat range with a great crossbow to 16-20. With Keen, you double that and get a threat range of 10-20. Since AoPO allows you to make one roll at 11, you choose your attack roll and 11 is inside the threat range, making the attack an automatic critical threat. Since you're making all your shots touch attacks, it's extremely likely that you'll confirm the shot.

More Deepwood Sniper is nice for the reduction in concealment, and the free attack rerolls - useful if you roll a 1 on your confirmation roll.

Xhosant
2014-05-08, 12:27 PM
I figured most of it, got some ToB experience. My only worry, does Sniper apply before Keen?

Fuzzy McCoy
2014-05-08, 01:32 PM
That's a good question, and one that I'm not sure the answer to. If the threat increase is after keen, though, rapid shot and some way to be under haste/other extra attack would also get you there.

Attack sequence: 12/12/12/7/2 (13/8/3 + rapid shot (-2) + haste (+1)).

dascarletm
2014-05-08, 01:54 PM
I know the cleric idea is in the past, but if you ever need justification to the DM show them a clip of the sniper in Saving Private Ryan. :smallbiggrin:

Xhosant
2014-05-08, 02:27 PM
That definitely looked like Sniper's Shot, just not persisted :smallbiggrin:

Xhosant
2014-05-08, 03:42 PM
Ok, been thinking.

Crusader 10/Targeteer 1/Caster 1 seems to get us online at 12th level, albeit with no user-based range boost (still, our weapon of choice has a 450ft increment, between Distance and Dragonbone or what was it).

Getting ourselves touch shots means getting a psionic starter kit feat. Humans get us a bonus feat, that's why we like them. So, any class with access to psionic focus is just as good, either via a natural reserve or some other mechanic. Besides these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#dromites), any other races you guys know that would work? EDIT: Also Kalashtar, but it seems like a bad choice. I'd go Xeph.

Also, can't for the life of me find a list of casters that use (parts of) the wizard/sorcerer list, although I know many exist (Warmage and SPellthief, for example), and same goes for Ranger.

Now, using Guided Shot wands demands theoretical access to either, so we need any class you guys can think off that includes a spell list with level 1 divination sorcerer/wizard or Ranger spells. It doesn't need to be available at 1st level, just any class we can dip to declare, by any means, Guided Shot as something we can persuade to get cast.

Also, there's this feat in ToB that gives you swift Psionic Focus after initiating a maneuver. If we have any maneuvers we can initiate alone/from range, that would be a great addition.

Xhosant
2014-05-20, 09:27 AM
We're back in business!