A Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ninja, Healer and Expert meet in a bar...

[Rakaydos]

...and talk about the Evil Druid who is blighting the lands. For the good of the community, they must defeat him!

Assuming equal level, 1v6... at what levels does the fight go unstoppably one way or the other?

[BWR]

...and talk about the Evil Druid who is blighting the lands. For the good of the community, they must defeat him!

Assuming equal level, 1v6... at what levels does the fight go unstoppably one way or the other?

How optimized are the characters in question? I'm pretty sure there are people on these boards that could optimize a 10th level Expert to autowin against any 20th level druid I make up.

[ericgrau]

At low level it's a cake walk for the six from class levels. At high level it's a cake walk for the six from 6x WBL. They could spend it on outcasting the druid (or a wizard or cleric) for example, and that's not necessarily the best use of the gold. And when game balance expects and hinges on it, yes factoring in WBL is not only fair, it's critical.

[eggynack]

How is the team planning to take down the druid at level 6, when we're hitting bat+wind wall mode? There's probably some solution, but that solution probably needs to be determined, because otherwise, that might just be the break point. If there's some particular solution to wind wall, that does not work efficiently against future wind options, then just repeat the question with eye of the hurricane or control winds in place of wind wall. Those spells would do reasonably well at stopping flight plans.

[ericgrau]

Go first and kill him before he casts wind wall and/or ready actions to disrupt casting? Walk through or around it? If you expect a druid, get a magic item for movement issues? If it's only level 5-6, survive and regroup after his few remaining spells? Kill the animal companion in the meantime. Wind wall is a joke. If it was "immunity to ranged attacks as an immediate action" it might mean something, but that's not what it is at all.

[Rakaydos]

If Action Economy and WBL is deciding this challange more than tier, what happens if the druid get a 2 level advantage, or if he has a cleric buddy?

[eggynack]

Go first and kill him before he casts wind wall and/or ready actions to disrupt casting? Walk through or around it? If you expect a druid, get a magic item for movement issues? If it's only level 5-6, survive and regroup after his few remaining spells? Kill the animal companion in the meantime. Wind wall is a joke. If it was "immunity to ranged attacks as an immediate action" it might mean something, but that's not what it is at all.
You can't really go around or through it, because it's a cylinder, so while wind wall certainly isn't immunity to ranged attacks as an immediate action, it pretty much is immunity as a standard action. Waiting it out won't necessarily work either, because summons are pretty good at turning a time advantage into victory, especially if you're running greenbound. Wall of thorns is some sweet business, after all.

Thus, I think that the only really viable method here is stopping the wind wall entirely, and I'm not entirely sure that that would be effective. The druid can also ready an action, after all, and he might actually go first against the opponent given his massive initiative score. This plan might not be ultimately effective, but I don't think it's a joke by any means. Besides, we're only a level away from friendly fire, which actually is immunity to ranged attacks as an immediate action. That, in combination with some form of wind wall, could lead to victory at 7.

Edit: Also, it's notable that, while some of the opponents might have a ranged option, I find it somewhat doubtful that they all will. I figure that you've gotta be cutting down on your opponents some just by being in the air, that you're possibly cutting down on them even more if you can summon a single wall of thorns'ing creature, and that you might be able to find victory against that broken party, especially with the animal companion having a not-trivial impact on things. The little fleshraker that could be even be able to take down the healer before exploding in a maelstrom of blood.

[nedz]

They should pool their resources and hire a Wizard, or another Druid, ...

[Coidzor]

Well, at level 1 a Druid does have Entangle, which, with good placement could buy them a minute to take out the party or at least whittle it down to a manageable level. Have to think about this one for a moment.

Definitely want to see a few people run through it now. Perhaps start with about mid-op for both sides...

[Rakaydos]

Definitely want to see a few people run through it now. Perhaps start with about mid-op for both sides...

Especially as the druid can run away freely by flying- you can have a whole series of encounters just on summoned monsters and charmed woodland creatures, until you finally reach the druid's grove.

[nedz]

The real problem with this question is that there are too many variables.

Firstly Player > Build > Class
Which means that the Player's tactical and optimisation abilities are more important than the tiers of the classes.

It's quite easy to imagine a Druid played very poorly — perhaps they have a sheep as their AC, and they load up on curing spells — but there is a gradient of options.

Also there is the question of location and terrain as well as the question of who can recruit the most useful allies as well as, lastly, who wins initiative.

[Techwarrior]

Honestly, due to the Quadratic Wizards vs. Linear Fighters idea that 3.5 has going for it, it's likely that you have to confine this to low-levels for the party to have a chance. The more spell levels the druid naturally gets the less options work, and the Healer is the only class of those that gets 9 spell levels.

I could see this as a nice idea as a challenge like has been mentioned, but care would need to be taken to make sure that neither side is too far in optimization level.

[eggynack]

The real problem with this question is that there are too many variables.

Firstly Player > Build > Class
Which means that the Player's tactical and optimisation abilities are more important than the tiers of the classes.

It's quite easy to imagine a Druid played very poorly — perhaps they have a sheep as their AC, and they load up on curing spells — but there is a gradient of options.
I'm pretty sure we can control for those things, at least to some extent. We're controlling the druid. He doesn't have a sheep as an AC. This is doubly true given the fact that this is a BBEG druid. Incidentally, I wonder if we're allowed to make the BBEG have a good alignment. There're some reasonable resources you can gain access to that way.


Also there is the question of location and terrain as well as the question of who can recruit the most useful allies as well as, lastly, who wins initiative.
The location thing is definitely an issue, and I think that increased complication in terrain favors the druid in most cases. For allies, I think we can just assume that they're not a thing. As has been noted, if you're able to just hire mercenaries, the challenge disappears in a puff of druid v. druid smoke. As for initiative, it seems possible to look at that numerically. The druid will probably go either first or near first, because druid initiative modifiers tend to be so high. You can trivially run about a +12 most of the day at that level.

[ericgrau]

The real problem with this question is that there are too many variables.

Firstly Player > Build > Class
Which means that the Player's tactical and optimisation abilities are more important than the tiers of the classes.

It's quite easy to imagine a Druid played very poorly — perhaps they have a sheep as their AC, and they load up on curing spells — but there is a gradient of options.

Also there is the question of location and terrain as well as the question of who can recruit the most useful allies as well as, lastly, who wins initiative.

It does have way too many variables and anything could happen. But generally druid gets overpowered easily at low level with simple poking because while he has some options they aren't all powerful nor 100% reliable. At high level I went with "Do everything a full caster does but better" because it was the simplest answer, not necessarily the best one. There are a lot of other nice magic items too like a belt of battle. Someone could easily screw up royally with bad choices. But generally I think the equal level 6 man team wins if every player is equally experienced and smart. If one side knows more, he might win because of that and not so much what he has to work with.

Because a billion things could happen, I suspect this will go back and forth with 25,000 "what if" scenarios and suppositions.

[Spore]

Because a billion things could happen, I suspect this will go back and forth with 25,000 "what if" scenarios and suppositions.

Defaulting into the "who wins initiative wins". Druid winning initiative will push him forward by a long shot (due to his abilities to terraform the battle into his favor).

[Curmudgeon]

You can't really go around or through it, because it's a cylinder, so while wind wall certainly isn't immunity to ranged attacks as an immediate action, it pretty much is immunity as a standard action.
Why do you think that? You just tuck away any loose papers and the like, and walk straight through.
It is a roaring blast sufficient to blow away any bird smaller than an eagle, or tear papers and similar materials from unsuspecting hands. (A Reflex save allows a creature to maintain its grasp on an object.) Tiny and Small flying creatures cannot pass through the barrier. Unless your part is composed of nothing but Small- flying creatures, everybody just walks through to the side where they need to be to attack.

[Azoth]

If these are straight class lvl20 builds, I have to say Paladin is going first. SoTAO gives him access to celerity and with up to lvl4 wizard spells, he can make a good opening move to put the Druid on the defensive before anyone else get's to react.

This only applies in higher op scenarios at the higher end of the level spectrum, but is still a variable to look into.

Another angle to look at is how aware are they that a fight is about to happen? Element of surprise can be a deciding factor here. Catching a Druid on the day he prepped spells to terraform a new wing onto his forest palace is different than catching him when he knows you were coming for him.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think the idea is no ACF's that modify Tier...

[eggynack]

Why do you think that? You just tuck away any loose papers and the like, and walk straight through. Unless your part is composed of nothing but Small- flying creatures, everybody just walks through to the side where they need to be to attack.
Sorry, that was somewhat misstated. I meant that you can't really go in, pop out the other end, and suddenly have a clear shot at the druid, because there'll still be this wall around the druid. You can probably shoot from within the cylinder, up at the druid, but I think there are ways to limit that strategy, like maybe placing your animal companion on that square. Even if that plan would work, and it might, you're still talking about one party member targeting you instead of six, which is a much better place to be.

[Azoth]

I think the idea is no ACF's that modify Tier...

While that wasn't stated in the OP or earlier in the thread, I can see making a distinction of one of the trials to run.

As an aside, can we get a notion on what kind of Druid we are trying to beat. Some are more easily handled than others especially at verying levels of play.

[ben-zayb]

You have a level 1 paladin. Why isn't this resolved already?:smallwink:


Mary Sue builds aside, I agree that WBL-mancy and action economy could seriously hamper a straight-classed Druid. At all levels, probably. It's not like a Druid has an answer against a Colossal Flying Riverine monster at levels 4-6.

[Deophaun]

Another angle to look at is how aware are they that a fight is about to happen? Element of surprise can be a deciding factor here. Catching a Druid on the day he prepped spells to terraform a new wing onto his forest palace is different than catching him when he knows you were coming for him.
Druid is a BBEG. That should mean he has awakened trees and forest critters acting as a spy network. So, not only should he know that the party is coming for him, he's actually been harrying the party for the last three days.

[Jeff the Green]

Well, levels 17 and above, Team Global Warming can gate in solars; Druids aren't nearly good enough at minionmancy to keep up with that unless they managed to get it on their list somehow.

[eggynack]

Well, levels 17 and above, Team Global Warming can gate in solars; Druids aren't nearly good enough at minionmancy to keep up with that unless they managed to get it on their list somehow.
I don't know if that's an especially relevant factor. Level 17 is when the game hits the shapechange singularity, where all magic might as well be the same magic, mostly due to infinite free wishes.

[JesusCraig]

For those people suggesting the flying form plus windwall is insurmountable at this level, couldnt they pool resources and get a wand of dispel magic, which is on the paladin spell lost?

[molten_dragon]

...and talk about the Evil Druid who is blighting the lands. For the good of the community, they must defeat him!

Assuming equal level, 1v6... at what levels does the fight go unstoppably one way or the other?

Assuming equal levels of optimization on both sides.

At low levels it goes unstoppably towards the party of 6. Action economy heavily favors them, and their pooled hit points are much higher. At higher levels the druid will put up a better fight. He can mitigate the hit point and action economy issues somewhat with summons, but I still think he's going to lose. WBL-mancy will kill him if nothing else.

[molten_dragon]

For those people suggesting the flying form plus windwall is insurmountable at this level, couldnt they pool resources and get a wand of dispel magic, which is on the paladin spell lost?

Or just a couple of scrolls, which any of them could afford on their own.

[Tysis]

How is the team planning to take down the druid at level 6, when we're hitting bat+wind wall mode? There's probably some solution, but that solution probably needs to be determined, because otherwise, that might just be the break point. If there's some particular solution to wind wall, that does not work efficiently against future wind options, then just repeat the question with eye of the hurricane or control winds in place of wind wall. Those spells would do reasonably well at stopping flight plans.

The druid died to a drow patrol when he wandered into the underdark at level 6 trying to become familiar with the desmodu hunting bat, party of six wins.

At level 6 I think the party would beat the druid in a fight due to the action economy and wbl advantage, and the druid cant outrun the paladin on a drakkensteed without a huge head start.

[Vogonjeltz]

Sorry, that was somewhat misstated. I meant that you can't really go in, pop out the other end, and suddenly have a clear shot at the druid, because there'll still be this wall around the druid. You can probably shoot from within the cylinder, up at the druid, but I think there are ways to limit that strategy, like maybe placing your animal companion on that square. Even if that plan would work, and it might, you're still talking about one party member targeting you instead of six, which is a much better place to be.

Fighter if/then statements:
If no wind wall, shoot with bow
If wind wall, charge on griffon, roc, or Pegasus mount.

Entangle could be useful at level 1 (terrain and party disposition depending), but I wouldn't bet the farm on that proposition.

IMO 6 v 1 at equal levels is probably a loss for the 1 unless that 1 is lucky. Class type is moot.

[Seppo87]

If anyone's going to test it, I'd gladly build the monk.

[nedz]

I don't know if that's an especially relevant factor. Level 17 is when the game hits the shapechange singularity, where all magic might as well be the same magic, mostly due to infinite free wishes.

If you are pitching this at level 17, bear in mind that the Healer has just acquired Gate.

[eggynack]

If wind wall, charge on griffon, roc, or Pegasus mount.

This does not seem feasible at these levels due to price constraints. The closest thing to workable is the pegasus, which is 4,000 GP on a combat style you've likely not invested strongly in. Meanwhile, without something stopping that from happening, your very expensive mount is likely to be stabbed to death in an unrelated combat. The paladin can get a hippogriff at level 6, but that's still just one enemy. Meanwhile, your plan works a lot less well if we up things by a level. The paladin actually can get a pegasus then, but the druid can run eye of the hurricane at that level, which makes for pretty reasonable flying protection.

If you are pitching this at level 17, bear in mind that the Healer has just acquired Gate.
I'm aware. I meant that, in a competition between gate and shapechange, I'd probably grant victory to shapechange, or call it a tie.

[3WhiteFox3]

I think that since this is essentially a tier based competition, the levels are considered here should be between 6 - 15. Just like the tier system is. Levels 1-5 are very swingy and levels 17-20 are probably going to be nothing more than mutually assured destruction (both Gate and Shapechange get infinite loops without much hassle).

[Vogonjeltz]

This does not seem feasible at these levels due to price constraints. The closest thing to workable is the pegasus, which is 4,000 GP on a combat style you've likely not invested strongly in. Meanwhile, without something stopping that from happening, your very expensive mount is likely to be stabbed to death in an unrelated combat. The paladin can get a hippogriff at level 6, but that's still just one enemy. Meanwhile, your plan works a lot less well if we up things by a level. The paladin actually can get a pegasus then, but the druid can run eye of the hurricane at that level, which makes for pretty reasonable flying protection.

No reason the Fighter can't raise the flying mount themselves, entirely negating the gold cost. A fighter could start their own animal rearing business for unlimited supplies of flying mounts.

Presumably the ability of a Fighter to craft (armor smithing) which cuts the price of Barding to 1/3 reliably improves the survival rate on those mounts (medium armor of mithril acts as light; or light armor enchanted)

The question was what to do about wind wall, which has been answered.

As a matter of the question of: how does a 9th level Druid (capable of casting control winds) fare versus 6 9th level characters, not well IMO. A bow with the Energy property would just ignore these wind defenses. And that's something any martial character can use, no frills. The unfortunate thing about control winds is that it doesn't do more than push things away. I don't see that doing anything more than delaying the inevitable defeat of said Druid (and not even that if the opposition is carrying energy weapons)

[eggynack]

No reason the Fighter can't raise the flying mount themselves, entirely negating the gold cost. A fighter could start their own animal rearing business for unlimited supplies of flying mounts.
Somewhat, but not completely. A pegasus egg costs 2,000 GP, and you can't really start your odd pegasus rearing business for no money.


Presumably the ability of a Fighter to craft (armor smithing) which cuts the price of Barding to 1/3 reliably improves the survival rate on those mounts (medium armor of mithril acts as light; or light armor enchanted)
It improves survival a little, but the main weakness of mounts is to area of effect stuff rather than stabbing.


The question was what to do about wind wall, which has been answered.
I'm pretty sure I'm saying that it hasn't.


As a matter of the question of: how does a 9th level Druid (capable of casting control winds) fare versus 6 9th level characters, not well IMO. A bow with the Energy property would just ignore these wind defenses. And that's something any martial character can use, no frills. The unfortunate thing about control winds is that it doesn't do more than push things away. I don't see that doing anything more than delaying the inevitable defeat of said Druid (and not even that if the opposition is carrying energy weapons)
Again, you're facing a serious cost issue here. The energy bow costs 22,600 GP, which means that you're investing most of your existence into this fight. You really can't customize your build for this, and that's a lot of what you're doing. Druids also get access to friendly fire by that level, which cuts down on ranged options even more than control winds, as well as blizzard, which does the same to some extent. On the count of blizzard, this is the level where the druid is starting to pull the high power AoE stuff. Along with control winds and blizzard, they also get call avalanche, which can be pretty brutal in the right circumstances.

[Deophaun]

As a matter of the question of: how does a 9th level Druid (capable of casting control winds) fare versus 6 9th level characters, not well IMO.
A 9th level druid can spend all day on the ethereal plane, and pop out on a whim to ambush whoever he wants, whenever he wants. How is the party dealing?

(Abberation Wild Shape + Enhance Wild Shape = Dharculus)

[eggynack]

A 9th level druid can spend all day on the ethereal plane, and pop out on a whim to ambush whoever he wants, whenever he wants. How is the party dealing?

(Abberation Wild Shape + Enhance Wild Shape = Dharculus)
That is some seriously weird stuff right there. I wonder how that interacts with casting.

[Deophaun]

That is some seriously weird stuff right there. I wonder how that interacts with casting.
As long as you have a tentacle on the Material, I don't see why spell casting on the Material wouldn't work.

I'm actually curious if the Dharculus can drag items into the Ethereal with it, as that would be nasty with Improved Grab.

Edit: Oh, and regarding flying mounts: At level 6, the druid in some flying form gets above 200', wind walls, and readies an action for the Pegasus/Hippogriff to close. Then he hits the mount with kelpstrand. Rider and mount enjoy 20d6 damage from the fall.

[Vogonjeltz]

Somewhat, but not completely. A pegasus egg costs 2,000 GP, and you can't really start your odd pegasus rearing business for no money.

Heroic fighters go steal those eggs from the nest, free is better than paying some middleman!



It improves survival a little, but the main weakness of mounts is to area of effect stuff rather than stabbing.

I'm pretty sure I'm saying that it hasn't.


Armor gems should be enough to limit that risk, that or cross breeding programs for innate resistances via inherited traits.


Again, you're facing a serious cost issue here. The energy bow costs 22,600 GP, which means that you're investing most of your existence into this fight. You really can't customize your build for this, and that's a lot of what you're doing. Druids also get access to friendly fire by that level, which cuts down on ranged options even more than control winds, as well as blizzard, which does the same to some extent. On the count of blizzard, this is the level where the druid is starting to pull the high power AoE stuff. Along with control winds and blizzard, they also get call avalanche, which can be pretty brutal in the right circumstances.

Hanks energy bow costs, but the energy trait isn't actually that expensive.

Friendly fire is, at best, 9 rounds of not getting shot if a full-round action, that's basically a turn of doing nothing and being at 6 enemies mercy. I find it unlikely the Druid lives long enough for that to be useful. You named 4 spells now that are individually kind of nice, but would require 4 rounds to start taking advantage of, 4 rounds is more than enough time to kill a Druid (up to 12 attacks from each martial character, and 6 with sneak attack from the ninja, and so forth).


A 9th level druid can spend all day on the ethereal plane, and pop out on a whim to ambush whoever he wants, whenever he wants. How is the party dealing?

(Abberation Wild Shape + Enhance Wild Shape = Dharculus)

You mean a Druid who took the two feats required could potentially. Of course, Druids aren't omniscient. Sometimes fights just happen.

And a 10th level ninja can go ethereal and attack the Druid. Druid isn't safe there, also force weapons will still hit it, even in ethereal mode.

*kelpstrand is a close range spell. Wind wall won't stop force arrows. No chance of the rider ever being in range. Even if it did, at this level it's only a 50/50 of hitting and a 50/50 of winning the grapple check. (All things being equal)

[eggynack]

Heroic fighters go steal those eggs from the nest, free is better than paying some middleman!
You're assuming something that I don't think you can assume. Furthermore, even if you were to find an egg, that'd still be coming out of wealth by level, cause that's how the game works.



Armor gems should be enough to limit that risk, that or cross breeding programs for innate resistances via inherited traits.
The former is plausible, though possibly expensive. The latter obviously is not.



Hanks energy bow costs, but the energy trait isn't actually that expensive.
Do you have a citation for the energy trait existing on its own?

Friendly fire is, at best, 9 rounds of not getting shot if a full-round action, that's basically a turn of doing nothing and being at 6 enemies mercy. I find it unlikely the Druid lives long enough for that to be useful. You named 4 spells now that are individually kind of nice, but would require 4 rounds to start taking advantage of, 4 rounds is more than enough time to kill a Druid (up to 12 attacks from each martial character, and 6 with sneak attack from the ninja, and so forth).
I'm not sure how you got to four rounds of being at your enemy's mercy. Each individual spell has the ability to nearly completely shut down vast portions of the party. I don't need control winds and blizzard and call avalanche to stop archery. I just need blizzard. This isn't a crazy combo attack. It's just spells that are highly powerful. Meanwhile, the other mode of friendly fire has some good utility if the druid lacks the opportunity to evade the opponents long enough for a buff round.



You mean a Druid who took the two feats required could potentially. Of course, Druids aren't omniscient. Sometimes fights just happen.
It's that or it's something else. I mentioned the possibility before, but the druid could potentially actually be good, and have access to exalted wild shape, or he could be running rashemi elemental summoning, or he could be doing a bunch of other stuff. Hell, with greenbound summoning+a ring of the beast+a chronocharm of the uncaring archmage, the druid could cast SNA IV as a standard action, getting anything from a greenbound giant crocodile, to 1d4+1 greenbound crocodiles, each of whom can cast wall of thorns in that same round. This isn't schrodinger's druid, because just about any efficient druid build will have resources on approximately that scale.

[ben-zayb]

Nobody addressed the +1 Flying Sizing Tiny Riverine weapon turned Flying Colossal Animated Object yet. It only costs ~14k, ~10k with Mercantile background. It can be bought by 6 lvl3 WBL, 3 lvl4 WBL, 2 lvl5 WBL, 1 lvl6 WBL + Merc. BG, or 1 lvl7 WBL.

For the good of the community, they better do some cooperation.

[Deophaun]

You mean a Druid who took the two feats required could potentially. Of course, Druids aren't omniscient. Sometimes fights just happen.
That would be something if these feats were corner case, one-trick ponies. But Aberration Wild Shape is exceptionally useful. If you're a druid and you like Wild Shape and spell casting, it's pretty much the feat to have.

And a 10th level ninja can go ethereal and attack the Druid. Druid isn't safe there, also force weapons will still hit it, even in ethereal mode.
Pity that this is 9th level. Also, please do. The druid would like nothing more than to kill off your party one. by. one. If the ninja wants to place himself in position where the rest of the party cannot help him, that's his choice. Just keep in mind, his body ain't going back to the Material.

And great, force weapons hit it. How are you seeing it? How do you even know what it is to know what it's doing? After all, it coup d'graced your expert last night, in the middle of your camp.

*kelpstrand is a close range spell. Wind wall won't stop force arrows.
At level six, that's not something the Druid has to worry about.

Even if it did, at this level it's only a 50/50 of hitting and a 50/50 of winning the grapple check. (All things being equal)
50/50 hitting? It's ranged touch. At worst, assuming a flying form with a Dex of 10 (terrible for a flyer), the Druid is going to have only a 30% chance of missing. Of course, if it's a Desmodu Hunting bat, there's only a 5% chance of missing. 50/50 winning grapple? Again, you're off. Pegasus has a grapple check of +12. A Druid is going to have a grapple check of +15 (+4 from BAB, +6 from CL, +5 from Wis). If the Druid has Improved Grapple (which I've been known to take that early) it goes to +19. If, on the other hand, it's going for Aberration Wild Shape, as my previous Druid did, it has a grapple of +17. Additionally, the druid can shoot two kelpstrands. The odds are stacked in the Druid's favor that whoever tries to go after it is going to die.

Nobody addressed the +1 Flying Sizing Tiny Riverine weapon turned Flying Colossal Animated Object yet. It only costs ~14k, ~10k with Mercantile background. It can be bought by 6 lvl3 WBL, 3 lvl4 WBL, 2 lvl5 WBL, 1 lvl6 WBL + Merc. BG, or 1 lvl7 WBL.
Dispel magic.

[eggynack]

That would be something if these feats were corner case, one-trick ponies. But Aberration Wild Shape is exceptionally useful. If you're a druid and you like Wild Shape and spell casting, it's pretty much the feat to have.
I wouldn't go that far. I've been warming up to the feat a lot recently, because it's often incorrectly marketed as being only good with assume supernatural ability, but it's one of several perfectly viable form adders. Aberration forms aren't necessarily better than what you get from exalted or dragon wild shape, and you're spending twice as many feats, which is a problem when you consider how feat starved a druid is. I don't think this is a corner case, because you're also getting stuff like thoon elder brain and will-o'-wisp forms, in addition to this one, but I'm somewhat doubtful of the claim that it's going to fit on every build.

[Rakaydos]

*munches popcorn an takes notes*

[Vogonjeltz]

You're assuming something that I don't think you can assume. Furthermore, even if you were to find an egg, that'd still be coming out of wealth by level, cause that's how the game works.

WBL is used to determine how much a new character of a particular level is estimated to have. Skills pretty neatly bypass the standard purchasing power of a character by allowing them to build their own items. And so long as the player has the time to hunt down their own mounts there's no reason they can't get them "free".


The former is plausible, though possibly expensive. The latter obviously is not.

Latter is breeding inherited template creatures. That's rules plausible.


Do you have a citation for the energy trait existing on its own?

Animated series handbook. There was even a link to a brilliant gameologists article from another thread here that had the trait written down.


I'm not sure how you got to four rounds of being at your enemy's mercy. Each individual spell has the ability to nearly completely shut down vast portions of the party. I don't need control winds and blizzard and call avalanche to stop archery. I just need blizzard. This isn't a crazy combo attack. It's just spells that are highly powerful. Meanwhile, the other mode of friendly fire has some good utility if the druid lacks the opportunity to evade the opponents long enough for a buff round.

As mentioned before, wind wall shuts down nothing at all, and hurricane at best gives some distance, but does nothing to stop those 2 rounds of ranged attacks, which may be benefitting from power shot.


It's that or it's something else. I mentioned the possibility before, but the druid could potentially actually be good, and have access to exalted wild shape, or he could be running rashemi elemental summoning, or he could be doing a bunch of other stuff. Hell, with greenbound summoning+a ring of the beast+a chronocharm of the uncaring archmage, the druid could cast SNA IV as a standard action, getting anything from a greenbound giant crocodile, to 1d4+1 greenbound crocodiles, each of whom can cast wall of thorns in that same round. This isn't schrodinger's druid, because just about any efficient druid build will have resources on approximately that scale.

Druid only has 4 feats, pick the 4 feats and that drastically narrows the options of whatever Druid being discussed. The exalted wild shape isn't even an option for almost all Druids.


That would be something if these feats were corner case, one-trick ponies. But Aberration Wild Shape is exceptionally useful. If you're a druid and you like Wild Shape and spell casting, it's pretty much the feat to have.

Dragon wild shape and that frost wild shape are also really useful. Lots of feats are useful, but the Druid at 9th only actually gets 4 of them, and only 2 come into play after wild shape is available.


Pity that this is 9th level. Also, please do. The druid would like nothing more than to kill off your party one. by. one. If the ninja wants to place himself in position where the rest of the party cannot help him, that's his choice. Just keep in mind, his body ain't going back to the Material.

This was actually 6th. You what-if'd a 9th level Druid so I did the same thing at 10th. Ninja goes ethereal for his turn and drops it off turn. Druid never gets the chance to fight back unless he stops being Ethereal.


And great, force weapons hit it. How are you seeing it? How do you even know what it is to know what it's doing? After all, it coup d'graced your expert last night, in the middle of your camp.

Are these rhetorical questions? There are ways to find ethereal enemies, just imagine the party has one.

[Coidzor]

WBL is used to determine how much a new character of a particular level is estimated to have. Skills pretty neatly bypass the standard purchasing power of a character by allowing them to build their own items. And so long as the player has the time to hunt down their own mounts there's no reason they can't get them "free".

The expert might just be able to help out a bit with tracking such things down in the wild, I suppose.

[Deophaun]

I wouldn't go that far. I've been warming up to the feat a lot recently, because it's often incorrectly marketed as being only good with assume supernatural ability, but it's one of several perfectly viable form adders. Aberration forms aren't necessarily better than what you get from exalted or dragon wild shape, and you're spending twice as many feats, which is a problem when you consider how feat starved a druid is.
Feat starved? Druid? I maintain the only feat a Druid "needs" is Natural Spell. You can take Toughness for the rest and you're still going to be at T1 effectiveness. Meanwhile, if you also want to be really good at something (wild shape, summoning, spell casting), you still have more than enough feats to do that. You're only feat starved if you're trying to be really good at everything. Then yes, you don't get to be a Dharculus that Twin-spells Greenbound summons or whatever.

But I will say it's hands-down better than Exalted. All exalted gets you is either the celestial template (limited to animal base creatures), or a couple somewhat interesting forms. Not saying Exalted is bad, just that it's not great.

I don't think this is a corner case, because you're also getting stuff like thoon elder brain and will-o'-wisp forms
Just scratching the surface. Umber Hulk, Rukanyr, Grell, Rust Monster (poor DM thought his four Iron Golems had me). And I'll rank it above Dragon Wild Shape simply because it comes online three levels earlier (six, if you're willing to forego Natural Spell, which I don't recommend), which means it's more likely to see play before the campaign ends.


in addition to this one, but I'm somewhat doubtful of the claim that it's going to fit on every build.
It's not. There are some people that don't want their naturalist shapeshifting into a living incarnation of anathema. I'm just saying that it's not like this is a special build designed solely for the challenge at hand: this is a powerful build that is pretty much universally effective.


Dragon wild shape and that frost wild shape are also really useful. Lots of feats are useful, but the Druid at 9th only actually gets 4 of them, and only 2 come into play after wild shape is available.
Druid only needs 1 feat: Natural Spell. And a Druid can have seven feats at level 9. (Human + 2 flaws).

This was actually 6th. You what-if'd a 9th level Druid so I did the same thing at 10th. Ninja goes ethereal for his turn and drops it off turn. Druid never gets the chance to fight back unless he stops being Ethereal.
I see nothing in the Ninja's entry that says he can drop it off turn. You spend the ki, you go ethereal for one round. That means Dharculus Druid gets a full attack on you, one-on-one.

Are these rhetorical questions? There are ways to find ethereal enemies, just imagine the party has one.
Oh, is that how we defend our positions? Fine then.

There are ways to kill all six of these characters without breaking a sweat, just imagine the druid uses one.

[Coidzor]

Nobody addressed the +1 Flying Sizing Tiny Riverine weapon turned Flying Colossal Animated Object yet. It only costs ~14k, ~10k with Mercantile background. It can be bought by 6 lvl3 WBL, 3 lvl4 WBL, 2 lvl5 WBL, 1 lvl6 WBL + Merc. BG, or 1 lvl7 WBL.

For the good of the community, they better do some cooperation.

I think mostly because it's just kind of kooky. And I'm not certain what the equivalent Op would be on the part of the Druid, but that may also factor into why it's not being taken up. Potentially the bit about it being WBLmancy used to create a creature which does most of the work itself, though that might also make the idea of the druid amassing minions through its abilities also a bit shaky.

[eggynack]

WBL is used to determine how much a new character of a particular level is estimated to have. Skills pretty neatly bypass the standard purchasing power of a character by allowing them to build their own items. And so long as the player has the time to hunt down their own mounts there's no reason they can't get them "free".
If you're hunting down these eggs, then it's presumably as part of an egg finding adventure. That means likely encounters, and with it, level gain. Usually fine, but in this case, it interferes with your capacity to fit in certain level ranges.


Latter is breeding inherited template creatures. That's rules plausible.
It's not about rules plausibility. It's about things you're actually doing. If you have some actual mechanism to accomplish this, sure, but without it, you can't assume success.



Animated series handbook. There was even a link to a brilliant gameologists article from another thread here that had the trait written down.
I'm looking right at it, and the bow looks like a single game object, with a single price. I see no evidence that you can divorce the property from the bow.



As mentioned before, wind wall shuts down nothing at all, and hurricane at best gives some distance, but does nothing to stop those 2 rounds of ranged attacks, which may be benefitting from power shot.
Wind wall shuts down ranged attacks that aren't occurring directly beneath you, and hurricane force winds also shut down ranged attacks pretty much completely. If you can afford an energy bow, that'd solve the problem, but I'm doubtful.



Druid only has 4 feats, pick the 4 feats and that drastically narrows the options of whatever Druid being discussed. The exalted wild shape isn't even an option for almost all Druids.
You're usually going to want about one thing from each feat group. That means a big summoning feat, possibly greenbound at first level, natural spell at 6th, and a form adder of some variety. The last object usually means one from the set of exalted wild shape, dragon wild shape, or aberration wild shape. Aberration eats into the third level feat, which cuts down the possibility of picking up something like natural bond, but that's not the biggest problem.

You're looking at this the wrong way. Aberration wild shape isn't a thing particularly optimized against melee guys, and if it's not this, it'll be something at a similar level of power. I mean, we can just use that build I just stated if everyone agrees. Greenbound at first, aberrant blood at third, natural spell at 6th, and aberration wild shape at 9th. There might also be a racial feat, depending on how the build plays out. As before, this is either going to be a human, or something at a similar level of power. I'd tend against a shifter build, because it's a bit unique, but an anthro bat or half-orc build could work.



Dragon wild shape and that frost wild shape are also really useful. Lots of feats are useful, but the Druid at 9th only actually gets 4 of them, and only 2 come into play after wild shape is available.
Dragon, yes, frozen, a lot less so. Neither is particularly relevant here, however, as they only come into play at later levels.


This was actually 6th. You what-if'd a 9th level Druid so I did the same thing at 10th. Ninja goes ethereal for his turn and drops it off turn. Druid never gets the chance to fight back unless he stops being Ethereal.




Are these rhetorical questions? There are ways to find ethereal enemies, just imagine the party has one.
There's no need to play imagination games. What method are you using?

Edit: As for exalted wild shape, getting the Ex abilities of all of your animal forms is pretty awesome, as is dimension door every round as a free action from blink dog. The latter especially isn't something that druids are particularly great at.

[ben-zayb]

Dispel magic.But Druids only get that starting level 7, don't they? Besides: Wall. Of. Force. By RAW, can't be affected by Dispel Magic.

[eggynack]

Feat starved? Druid? I maintain the only feat a Druid "needs" is Natural Spell. You can take Toughness for the rest and you're still going to be at T1 effectiveness.
Druids are at tier one effectiveness even without natural spell. That's not the point. It's not about how bad druids are without feats, but about how good druids can be with feats. That list I provided in my last post should be sufficient evidence of that, but there's more. A druid feat can go a long way, further a feat for most classes out there, just because there is so much to augment, and so many things to augment those things with.


Just scratching the surface. Umber Hulk, Rukanyr, Grell, Rust Monster (poor DM thought his four Iron Golems had me). And I'll rank it above Dragon Wild Shape simply because it comes online three levels earlier (six, if you're willing to forego Natural Spell, which I don't recommend), which means it's more likely to see play before the campaign ends.
I don't really see what makes those forms all that useful. They seem to provide reasonable things, but nothing that's seriously worth a feat, let alone two. They seem to be strictly side benefits, only really worth considering if you're taking the feats anyway. They're definitely not on the same scale as something like will-o'-wisp, with its magic immunity and invisibility, or to touch on dragon wild shape, something like tarterian dragon, with its always on FoM, or mist dragon, with its spell using gaseous form. I agree though, that the level thing is relevant when it's relevant. If you're starting around 9, though, it might be worth skipping greenbound and picking up rashemi elemental summoning, and then move the form adder to 12, where dragon is a solid option.

[dextercorvia]

At level 6-8 the team should be able to pool their resources to Chaos Shuffle the Fighter (or possibly the healer) into 9th level spells. That is too soon for the Druid to be able to afford any of the more abusable options I can think of to get him there.

[Deophaun]

But Druids only get that starting level 7, don't they?Level 7, yes. But before level 6, the Druid is at a disadvantage anyway, so I don't see why this group would be blowing their WBL on the item.

Besides: Wall. Of. Force. By RAW, can't be affected by Dispel Magic.
Not looking to get rid of the Wall. Of. Force. The permanencied animate object, on the other hand...

I don't really see what makes those forms all that useful. They seem to provide reasonable things, but nothing that's seriously worth a feat, let alone two. They seem to be strictly side benefits, only really worth considering if you're taking the feats anyway. They're definitely not on the same scale as something like will-o'-wisp, with its magic immunity and invisibility, or to touch on dragon wild shape, something like tarterian dragon, with its always on FoM, or mist dragon, with its spell using gaseous form.
The Grell's sightless quality is remarkably powerful in granting complete immunity to illusions. No, there's not even an exception for the shadow subschool. Hit it with a 120% real shadow evocationed disintegrate, and it acts like nothing happened.
Umber Hulk can burrow through rock and leave a passage, and the quickest way through a dungeon is a straight line.
Rukanyr is the basis of the pauper of smack build. The fast healing can be increased to 10 with healthful rest.
Rust Monster is just fun when it comes up, but I'll agree it's a side benefit.

The dragons, meanwhile; Always-on freedom of movement isn't all that powerful, because how many hours a day are you entangled? That's stuff you measure in rounds, and druids do get heart of water. And the mist form, while better than gaseous form, still isn't all that great. It's no less situational than the Umber Hulk's ability, and the Umber Hulk can actually take your animal companion/party with it.

[eggynack]

The Grell's sightless quality is remarkably powerful in granting complete immunity to illusions. No, there's not even an exception for the shadow subschool. Hit it with a 120% real shadow evocationed disintegrate, and it acts like nothing happened.
That's certainly good, but I can't really see what differentiates this from standard blindsight, or how being sightless impacts shadow spells.

Umber Hulk can burrow through rock and leave a passage, and the quickest way through a dungeon is a straight line.
You can generally accomplish this with either burrowing creatures, like the thoqqua, or perhaps dragon wild shape, using something like li lung.

The dragons, meanwhile; Always-on freedom of movement isn't all that powerful, because how many hours a day are you entangled? That's stuff you measure in rounds, and druids do get heart of water. And the mist form, while better than gaseous form, still isn't all that great. It's no less situational than the Umber Hulk's ability, and the Umber Hulk can actually take your animal companion/party with it.
I see freedom of movement as more of a supplemental thing, granting access to the ability when you wouldn't otherwise have it. Heart of water is great, but it struggles a bit when dealing with multiple FoM needing things in a day, so just having some spontaneous uses is great. Anyway, dragon grants a lot of other stuff. You get a bunch of immunities, both standard and non-standard, there's true seeing, several iterations of alternate form, odd breath weapons, some of the best movement mode access in the game, shadow blend, and occasionally an extra use of earthquake in a day. It's a lot of abilities, and they're more spontaneously accessible than some of the aberration abilities, which often require enhance wild shape to run properly.

[Deophaun]

That's certainly good, but I can't really see what differentiates this from standard blindsight, or how being sightless impacts shadow spells.
There are lots of other things that differentiate the sightless quality from blindsight (like immunity to gaze attacks). But, to answer how it impacts shadow spells, it's because the sightless quality specifically says it grants immunity to illusions. An Illusion (shadow) is still an illusion, so Grells are immune. RAI? Highly doubtful. RAW? Absolutely.

You can generally accomplish this with either burrowing creatures, like the thoqqua, or perhaps dragon wild shape, using something like li lung.
The thoqqua is extremely slow. As its tunnels are only 1' in diameter, it has to corkscrew through rock to get a tunnel that's a useable size (and even then you're left with a stone donut hole you need to remove). You can summon one to get through a 10' section without a problem. But it's not useful for, say, tunneling an escape route under a wall.

The li lung, meanwhile, doesn't leave a useable tunnel.

[eggynack]

There are lots of other things that differentiate the sightless quality from blindsight (like immunity to gaze attacks). But, to answer how it impacts shadow spells, it's because the sightless quality specifically says it grants immunity to illusions. An Illusion (shadow) is still an illusion, so Grells are immune. RAI? Highly doubtful. RAW? Absolutely.
Do you have a citation for the fact that this is an inherent quality of blindness? It's certainly a quality of ooze blindness, but I can't tell whether it's a quality of grell blindness, or all blindness.

[Deophaun]

Do you have a citation for the fact that this is an inherent quality of blindness? It's certainly a quality of ooze blindness, but I can't tell whether it's a quality of grell blindness, or all blindness.
I didn't say it was a quality of blindness. I said it was a quality of the sightless ability:

Sightless (Ex): A grell is immune to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight.

[eggynack]

I didn't say it was a quality of blindness. I said it was a quality of the sightless ability:
That's odd. I think I must be looking at the wrong grell. What's the source on that one? Either way, yeah, that's a pretty strong ability. Pretty weird though, especially when you consider the caveat of "other attack forms that rely on sight".

[nedz]

What about non-visual Illusions, e.g. Ghost Sound ?

RAI, obviously not, but the RAW seems vague ?

[ben-zayb]

Not looking to get rid of the Wall. Of. Force. The permanencied animate object, on the other hand...Oh, no Animate Object spell required. It's built somewhat like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?185882-Shield-Bashing-fun&p=10294124&viewfull=1#post10294124), except it doesn't really have to be a shield, so the animation is on the magic Weapon itself. And the weapon itself isn't affected by dispel magic, so... fun times...:smallbiggrin:

And why wouldn't they blow up their WBL to create the ultimate weapon to solve their problem for them? (For a few levels anyway)

[Deophaun]

That's odd. I think I must be looking at the wrong grell. What's the source on that one?
You're probably looking at MMII. Grell was updated to 3.5 in Lords of Madness.

[eggynack]

You're probably looking at MMII. Grell was updated to 3.5 in Lords of Madness.
That I was, and that it is. That is an odd ability right there

[Ruethgar]

Level one, the expert wins with creative use of Lucid Dreaming.

[Rakaydos]

As a guideline for "You're specilizing too much for this one encounter"

The Druid is a BBEG
The party, if it wins, will be hearing about a evil cleric's cult next week. And an evil wizard the week after.

[Seppo87]

As a guideline for "You're specilizing too much for this one encounter"

The Druid is a BBEG
The party, if it wins, will be hearing about a evil cleric's cult next week. And an evil wizard the week after.
I'd roll my monk as a wis-based raptoran with Intuitive Attack, Stunning Fist, Ring the Golden Bell and the Decisive Attack ACF.
If LA reduction is allowed, it'd be a Saint Raptoran or a Winged Creature Strongheart Halfling with the same feats plus Yondalla's Sense. Quick Reconnoiter would help as well, with enough Spot.
Now, it's totally a one-trick pony, but I guess it might actually work against most low to mid-level casters

[Lans]

Is wildshape monk on the table?

[Yogibear41]

If they are all the same level barring some sort of post level 20 scenario shenanigans and epic spell casting, the druid should probably lose most of the time, regardless of level.


Bird form wildshape and fly up in the sky and shoot people with spells can only take you so far.

Curious:
Why expert and not an actual PC class?

[Vogonjeltz]

Feat starved? Druid? I maintain the only feat a Druid "needs" is Natural Spell. You can take Toughness for the rest and you're still going to be at T1 effectiveness. Meanwhile, if you also want to be really good at something (wild shape, summoning, spell casting), you still have more than enough feats to do that. You're only feat starved if you're trying to be really good at everything. Then yes, you don't get to be a Dharculus that Twin-spells Greenbound summons or whatever.

At the level we were talking about initially, yeah they only have 3 feats, and only 1 can be wild shape based. That's feat starved for someone who's apparently all about the special forms.



Druid only needs 1 feat: Natural Spell. And a Druid can have seven feats at level 9. (Human + 2 flaws).

Who said flaws were allowed? That's a DM option variant from unearthed arcana, not a default.


I see nothing in the Ninja's entry that says he can drop it off turn. You spend the ki, you go ethereal for one round. That means Dharculus Druid gets a full attack on you, one-on-one.

You can always stop using an ability, on your turn. There's almost never a good reason to do so, but I guess we just delineated one. With no action cost listed it defaults to free action



Oh, is that how we defend our positions? Fine then.

There are ways to kill all six of these characters without breaking a sweat, just imagine the druid uses one.

Hardy har har.


If you're hunting down these eggs, then it's presumably as part of an egg finding adventure. That means likely encounters, and with it, level gain. Usually fine, but in this case, it interferes with your capacity to fit in certain level ranges.

Or it's an errand. Adventures are things the DM makes, errands are things players make up.



I'm looking right at it, and the bow looks like a single game object, with a single price. I see no evidence that you can divorce the property from the bow.

Hrm, well I saw it listed here, I'll have to track it down.


Wind wall shuts down ranged attacks that aren't occurring directly beneath you, and hurricane force winds also shut down ranged attacks pretty much completely. If you can afford an energy bow, that'd solve the problem, but I'm doubtful.

As I am positing.


You're usually going to want about one thing from each feat group. That means a big summoning feat, possibly greenbound at first level, natural spell at 6th, and a form adder of some variety. The last object usually means one from the set of exalted wild shape, dragon wild shape, or aberration wild shape. Aberration eats into the third level feat, which cuts down the possibility of picking up something like natural bond, but that's not the biggest problem.

You're looking at this the wrong way. Aberration wild shape isn't a thing particularly optimized against melee guys, and if it's not this, it'll be something at a similar level of power. I mean, we can just use that build I just stated if everyone agrees. Greenbound at first, aberrant blood at third, natural spell at 6th, and aberration wild shape at 9th. There might also be a racial feat, depending on how the build plays out. As before, this is either going to be a human, or something at a similar level of power. I'd tend against a shifter build, because it's a bit unique, but an anthro bat or half-orc build could work.

Dragon, yes, frozen, a lot less so. Neither is particularly relevant here, however, as they only come into play at later levels.

This was actually 6th. You what-if'd a 9th level Druid so I did the same thing at 10th. Ninja goes ethereal for his turn and drops it off turn. Druid never gets the chance to fight back unless he stops being Ethereal.

There's no need to play imagination games. What method are you using?

Edit: As for exalted wild shape, getting the Ex abilities of all of your animal forms is pretty awesome, as is dimension door every round as a free action from blink dog. The latter especially isn't something that druids are particularly great at.

I think we just view it differently eggynack.

[eggynack]

Or it's an errand. Adventures are things the DM makes, errands are things players make up.
I don't think players can make up things in that manner. If this is happening during the game, then the DM has his world. If it's happening during character creation, then the egg by all rights comes out of WBL.



Hrm, well I saw it listed here, I'll have to track it down.

As I am positing.
Well, track down your bow, and you can posit away. As is, the only apparently available option seems to be well out of the reasonable price range of these characters.



I think we just view it differently eggynack.
Well, yes. I view it in a way that I've backed up with some pretty extensive evidence. I can't really see any argument of mine there that doesn't hold up under scrutiny, apart from the theoretical possibility that you come up with the actual game objects I've requested.

[Deophaun]

At the level we were talking about initially, yeah they only have 3 feats, and only 1 can be wild shape based. That's feat starved for someone who's apparently all about the special forms.
Please. Druids can do their job without the need for feats. Anything they get beyond Natural Spell is gravy.

Who said flaws were allowed? That's a DM option variant from unearthed arcana, not a default.
Everything's a DM option. After all, who said you could get your hands on any magic items? You certainly don't have a caster in the group to make them beyond the Paladin.

You can always stop using an ability, on your turn. There's almost never a good reason to do so, but I guess we just delineated one. With no action cost listed it defaults to free action.
Rules citation.

Hardy har har.
So, since you've apparently conceded that you have no means of detecting an ethereal creature, what's your alternative?

[Techwarrior]

Force is a +2 Ranged Weapon property from MIC.


A projectile weapon with the force property turns ammunition shot from it into a force attack.

There's more rules text, mostly reiterating what Force damage does. However, it also is no longer subject to Wind Wall as a side effect of being a bolt of force energy and not a 'normal ranged weapon.'

[eggynack]

Force is a +2 Ranged Weapon property from MIC.



There's more rules text, mostly reiterating what Force damage does. However, it also is no longer subject to Wind Wall as a side effect of being a bolt of force energy and not a 'normal ranged weapon.'
Yeah, that's definitely a bit cheaper. Still, we're talking more money than a 6th leveled character's wealth by level, which is obviously unfeasible, and over half of wealth by level at 9th, which also seems like too much unless the character is specialized in archery, and even then you're pulling serious resources, possibly in excess of what is plausible.

[Deophaun]

There's more rules text, mostly reiterating what Force damage does. However, it also is no longer subject to Wind Wall as a side effect of being a bolt of force energy and not a 'normal ranged weapon.'
It's not the "normal ranged weapon" that's an issue. It's the "Arrows and bolts" that is. There's a question as to whether being a turned into a force attack (which is as generic a term as you can get) means it's no longer an arrow or a bolt. An arrow made of force would still be blocked by wind wall, because wind wall doesn't care about the nature of the arrow, it just knows that arrows miss.

Anyway, as I don't hate archers, I let it go.

[Curmudgeon]

You can always stop using an ability, on your turn.
That's not correct. Here are some counterexamples. First, the Frenzied Berserker:
To end the frenzy before its duration expires, the character may attempt a DC 20 Will save once per round as a free action. Success ends the frenzy immediately; failure means it continues. The Power Attack feat:
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. A Monk using the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21):
Benefit: As an immediate action, you can become invisible for 1 round. You must wait 3 rounds before you can use this ability again.
...
Invisible fist is a supernatural ability. There's no option to not be invisible before that round is up.
Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. And if there were such an option, the default requirement for any Supernatural use option would be a standard action.

Unless an ability states that ending it is an option (and specifies what action that cessation requires), it continues.

[eggynack]

At the level we were talking about initially, yeah they only have 3 feats, and only 1 can be wild shape based. That's feat starved for someone who's apparently all about the special forms.

Missed this. You really can't construct this situation at level 6. That's the level where you take natural spell, pretty much no matter what. Level 9 or 12 is the form adding feat level, and I'm pretty sure that Deophaun's base build is consistent with that fact, and was constructed as a 9th level character. The 6th level version of the character does not have aberration wild shape.

Moreover, in most builds, you're not playing a character that's, "All about the special forms." No one has even implied that that's what this character would be, to my knowledge. Having one feat that adds forms, and then a second different feat that adds forms, is generally counterproductive, because you can't assume two forms at once. It's not the worst build decision in the world, because some of these forms are amazing, but you usually want to be doing something else.

So, this character has a feat. Maybe two feats, with human, or maybe four feats, with flaws. It's really as simple as that. Is that feat starved? Maybe, if by feat starved you just mean, "has a lot of great options." Still, it's probably enough. The character can likely make due without rashemi elemental summoning, or companion spellbond, or initiate of nature. It hurts, sometimes, being limited in this way. However, in another sense, it feels fantastic, having access to all of these amazing feats.

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't think players can make up things in that manner. If this is happening during the game, then the DM has his world.

I am suggesting this is something players do during their down-time between adventures (not character creation). Same as rogues shopping for the five-fingered discount.


Well, track down your bow, and you can posit away. As is, the only apparently available option seems to be well out of the reasonable price range of these characters.

Well, it's not what I was looking for (I know you're out there!) but the Force enhancement from MIC turns all damage into force damage, instead of physical damage.


Please. Druids can do their job without the need for feats. Anything they get beyond Natural Spell is gravy.

No one said they couldn't. What I did say was that they are feat starved. Which they are.


Everything's a DM option. After all, who said you could get your hands on any magic items? You certainly don't have a caster in the group to make them beyond the Paladin.

The availability of magic items is the default assumption, per the DMG and the MIC. Nobody has to be making them in a group.


Rules citation.

As it's not obvious from the quote, you are asking for a rules citation on ceasing an action: PHB delineates what are or aren't actions. It's typically a standard action to use an ability, no action is listed for ending most abilities. Those that specifically list an action have that action, failing that they would default to no action. All listed rules for not continuing to do something (ceasing concentration on a spell) are listed as free actions.


So, since you've apparently conceded that you have no means of detecting an ethereal creature, what's your alternative?

It's a two-way street: Things on the Material Plane, however, look gray, indistinct, and ghostly. An ethereal creature can’t affect the Material Plane, not even magically.
So the Ethereal creature (druid) has no idea who is around him.


That's not correct. Here are some counterexamples. First, the Frenzied Berserker:

The First two examples provide a penalty, and specifically note that certain conditions must be met to end the effect. Those would be specific exceptions to the general rule.
The Invisible Fist ACF appears to me to be functionally similar to the Ninja Ghost Step (Su) ability. Both say nothing about how the effect can be ended, however, the only thing that specifically requires an action is their activation.

Therefore ending them must be no action at all, or it would say what kind of action it is.

*Eggynack I definitely did not mean "has a lot of great options.".

[Curmudgeon]

The First two examples provide a penalty, and specifically note that certain conditions must be met to end the effect. Those would be specific exceptions to the general rule.
What general rule? I have no idea what you're referring to here. Please provide a citation.

[eggynack]

I am suggesting this is something players do during their down-time between adventures (not character creation). Same as rogues shopping for the five-fingered discount.
You can assume, to some extent, that there are things for a rogue to steal in existence. You can't really make the same assumption for pegasus eggs.


Well, it's not what I was looking for (I know you're out there!) but the Force enhancement from MIC turns all damage into force damage, instead of physical damage.
As has been noted, that item is also out of the reasonable price range of these characters, and it might not even work if the arrows remain arrows.


*Eggynack I definitely did not mean "has a lot of great options.".
Not really sure what you do mean then. I mean, aberration wild shape obviously does a bunch of great stuff, so it's a great option. Not many feats in the game grant access to illusion immunity, immunity to magic, and crazy ethereal attacks, all in one, even when you consider the fact that it costs two feats. Thus, if there aren't lots of great options, then the druid is pretty much locked in to taking aberration wild shape, which is a great option. I'm not really sure what else feat starved could mean in this context. The druid certainly doesn't need these feats, so any sort of feat starvation would be defined by how much the druid wants them.

[Deophaun]

No one said they couldn't. What I did say was that they are feat starved. Which they are.
Monty Python's argument sketch was a joke, you know?

As it's not obvious from the quote, you are asking for a rules citation on ceasing an action: PHB delineates what are or aren't actions. It's typically a standard action to use an ability, no action is listed for ending most abilities. Those that specifically list an action have that action, failing that they would default to no action. All listed rules for not continuing to do something (ceasing concentration on a spell) are listed as free actions.
You aren't concentrating on a spell. If anything, you are trying to dismiss it. If it was a spell, that would be a standard action. But, since the power doesn't say it's dismissible, you can't even do that:

(D) Dismissible

If the Duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell’s effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell’s verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

A spell that depends on concentration is dismissible by its very nature, and dismissing it does not take an action, since all you have to do to end the spell is to stop concentrating on your turn.

It's a two-way street: Things on the Material Plane, however, look gray, indistinct, and ghostly. An ethereal creature can’t affect the Material Plane, not even magically.
So the Ethereal creature (druid) has no idea who is around him.
Yeah, nice try. It's a DC 90 Jump check to go from "everything's kinda blurry" to "you have no idea." And it's still infinitely more information than the rest of the party has. More than enough for the druid to stalk the party and hit them when they're vulnerable.

And what's with the "can't affect the Material Plane?" Did you even bother to look up the creature before commenting?

[Vogonjeltz]

What general rule? I have no idea what you're referring to here. Please provide a citation.

I'm afb, but from what I can recall there are numerous places where the texts (PHB, MM, and DMG) state that doing such and such is an action of type X, where X is full round, standard, move, free, swift, or immediate. Given that the type is always defined, then it must follow that there is no action required to do something for which no action type is defined. To argue against this you implicitly are arguing the reverse, that there is a defined action type. So the general rule, in a roundabout way, is the idea that to be an action, it must be defined as such.


You can assume, to some extent, that there are things for a rogue to steal in existence. You can't really make the same assumption for pegasus eggs.

Why not? Are you saying they don't exist in D&D?



As has been noted, that item is also out of the reasonable price range of these characters, and it might not even work if the arrows remain arrows.

Not really sure what you do mean then. I mean, aberration wild shape obviously does a bunch of great stuff, so it's a great option. Not many feats in the game grant access to illusion immunity, immunity to magic, and crazy ethereal attacks, all in one, even when you consider the fact that it costs two feats. Thus, if there aren't lots of great options, then the druid is pretty much locked in to taking aberration wild shape, which is a great option. I'm not really sure what else feat starved could mean in this context. The druid certainly doesn't need these feats, so any sort of feat starvation would be defined by how much the druid wants them.

Craftable, at that price point.

We already established that Driuids want those feats. You went to great lengths to extol them. Desire is not a question.


Monty Python's argument sketch was a joke, you know?

You aren't concentrating on a spell. If anything, you are trying to dismiss it. If it was a spell, that would be a standard action. But, since the power doesn't say it's dismissible, you can't even do that:

Yeah, nice try. It's a DC 90 Jump check to go from "everything's kinda blurry" to "you have no idea." And it's still infinitely more information than the rest of the party has. More than enough for the druid to stalk the party and hit them when they're vulnerable.

And what's with the "can't affect the Material Plane?" Did you even bother to look up the creature before commenting?

No idea ~ can not identify
I was just copypastaing the relevant section from the srd20 site

[eggynack]

Why not? Are you saying they don't exist in D&D?
They exist. You just might not necessarily be able to spontaneously find them out in the wild.



Craftable, at that price point.
Perhaps, but it's still a lot of cash, and now a feat/XP, and the item still might not work.


We already established that Driuids want those feats. You went to great lengths to extol them. Desire is not a question.
I'm not sure what the question is then. If feat starved doesn't mean that the druid needs the feats, and it doesn't mean that druid feats are so awesome that the druid wants a lot of them, then what does it mean?

[Curmudgeon]

Given that the type is always defined, then it must follow that there is no action required to do something for which no action type is defined. To argue against this you implicitly are arguing the reverse, that there is a defined action type.
The highlighted statement isn't correct. There's no action type defined for making your opponent's head explode through an exercise of the Balance skill. However, using the Balance skill for any purpose is an example of something that's defined to take no action. D&D doesn't work on such a permissive (you can do anything unless forbidden) system.

The way D&D works is that for you to change the world around you, you must apply an option listed in the rules; that includes stopping something which the rules state will continue for a specified time. You need to provide a rules citation for that "general rule" you claim exists: that you can stop something unless stated otherwise. Otherwise, I'm calling shenanigans.

[Dorian Gray]

But if you steal the eggs... then the DM takes 2k out of the value of the next encounter. If it can be measured in GP, it's part of your WBL. That's like saying "Well, I stole this magic armor, so it doesn't count as part of my WBL."
Furthermore, druids are not, not, not! feat starved. They need one feat to function. Anything else is nice, but in no way necessary. Feat starved doesn't mean that they don't get a bunch of feats, it means that they need a lot of feats, which druids don't.
A good example to showcase the difference is a 9th level TWF rogue. The rogue needs TWF, improved TWF, and weapon finesse, which take up his 1st, 3rd, and 9th level feats- so if he's a human, he gets 2 feats to customise himself with. The druid, on the other hand, needs 1 feat, at level 6, so he has 4 spare feats to distribute.

[eggynack]

They need one feat to function.
Druids need zero feats to function. Druids are full casters, with a mass of other class features, and that's true whether you can cast in wild shape or not. Natural spell is incredibly powerful, and it's practically an actual class feature given how ubiquitous it is. It is not, however, necessary. Druids are crazy resilient like that.

[Dorian Gray]

Druids need zero feats to function. Druids are full casters, with a mass of other class features, and that's true whether you can cast in wild shape or not. Natural spell is incredibly powerful, and it's practically an actual class feature given how ubiquitous it is. It is not, however, necessary. Druids are crazy resilient like that.

Point taken. That being said, I think we can assume that our theoretical druid will always take natural spell- the theoretical rogue doesn't have to take weapon finesse, but yes he will.

[eggynack]

Point taken. That being said, I think we can assume that our theoretical druid will always take natural spell- the theoretical rogue doesn't have to take weapon finesse, but yes he will.
Sounds about right, though weapon finesse plans on a rogue have always suffered from prerequisite based silliness.

[Dorian Gray]

Sounds about right, though weapon finesse plans on a rogue have always suffered from prerequisite based silliness.

I know, right? It's as if one designer said, "Oh, that dexterity-based class we have? How about we make a feat that allows that class to contribute in a meaningful way to combat? That way the player won't have too many good class features"
And then another designer said "That's a good idea. But wait- we don't want the martials to have too much good stuff- how about we make the rogue wait until level 3? That way the player will start acclimating to being useless from level 1!"
See: why I don't use core classes Note: Blatant Lies

[Lans]

The healer can get a coutl companion that can bring sorceror casting and plane shift to the table

[Gnaeus]

So, by level 9, a 50 charge wand of Dispel Magic at CL 8 is avalable at 18000 gp, or half WBL. If partially charged wands are allowed, we will take level 10 CL wands instead. Reckless Wand wielder pushes that up to 10 and 12 if we need it to.

The Paladin buys the best dispel magic wand he can, Reckless Wand Wielder, and then cranks up spellcraft cross class and Initiative as much as he can.

The Expert (aka the party wizard in a can) buys the best dispel magic wand he can, maxes out his UMD, which should be at least +19 by level 9. Also takes full ranks in spellcraft (in class). Gets reckless wand wielder. Makes sure he has a good initiative as well.

Healer fills his level 3 slots with Hammer of Righteousness. Buys some potions of lesser restoration. Maxes initiative. Attempts to interrupt all the druids spells by launching force hammers (9d8, fort save for half, average 40, save 20).
Edit: The healer spends less than half of his WBL for a lesser rod of Maximize. So the Hammers do 80, save for 40. Should drop a Druid 9 in 3 rounds for sure, less if he fails a save. Range 190 feet. No miss chance. So, really, it might not even be worth it to save for interrupt. After the first 80 force damage, Mr. druid might be ready to withdraw.

If the paladin or expert get initiative, they ready an action to dispel magic as a counterspell if the druid casts something they are worried about. If the druid goes first, and casts some aoe or defense that is shutting down multiple party members, they put two dispels on that. Thats about a 75% chance to shut down anything threatening and spell based the druid is doing. Wind Wall? Dispel x2. Blizzard? Dispel x2.

Monk, Ninja and Fighter all kill the pet, then move to engage the druid if he hasn't fled yet.

If the druid goes abberrant + EWS and tries to snipe the party astrally, the dispel team readies actions to counterspell the EWS whenever druid partially materializes. And the healer is still happy with his force hammers.

Best part, this will work just as well with the evil cleric next week, and the evil wizard the week after that.

[Deophaun]

Best part, this will work just as well with the evil cleric next week, and the evil wizard the week after that.
But it's not working with the Aberration Wild Shape druid.

As I said, this thing is stalking the party, unseen, all day. Whenever the party is distracted or vulnerable, it pops out and drops a spell--blizzard, SNA, haboob--and then sits safely on the ethereal plane and watches. This isn't a single fight. They are being harried and their resources worn down. Relying on potions and wands simply makes the druid's ultimate victory all the easier, because his attacks now also hit your gear.

Additionally, dispel magic doesn't do anything against call avalanche, and it can make transmute rock to mud worse. Wind wall isn't really an issue at this level.

[Gnaeus]

But it's not working with the Aberration Wild Shape druid.

As I said, this thing is stalking the party, unseen, all day. Whenever the party is distracted or vulnerable, it pops out and drops a spell--blizzard, SNA, haboob--and then sits safely on the ethereal plane and watches. This isn't a single fight. They are being harried and their resources worn down. Relying on potions and wands simply makes the druid's ultimate victory all the easier, because his attacks now also hit your gear.

Additionally, dispel magic doesn't do anything against call avalanche, and it can make transmute rock to mud worse. Wind wall isn't really an issue at this level.

Fine. you pop out your tentacles and begin casting SNA or call avalanche. That takes a round, now we see you, and you can eat a bunch of damage. Pop out and Haboob. One wand charge dispels it, eat a bunch of damage. Did you pop back to ethereal on your next turn? Swift action for a corsairs eyepatch, eat a bunch of damage. And if one of the PCs has Permanent See Invisibility (which would make sense for this group) you are just as likely to be ambushed by us while you are sneaking around ethereally as the other way around.

And as far as the SNA goes, what exactly are you summoning with SNA V after blowing 3 feats on natural spell and aberrant wildshape that is going to cause more damage than a healer can heal before 3 muggles kill it? I guess if you live in faerun you could try to whittle us down with walls of thorns.

How many spells do you have, anyway, for your "war of attrition". It looks to me like a Druid 9 with Wisdom in the mid 20s will have 2 5ths, 3 4ths 5 3rds. Less than that if you are using Enhance Wild Shape. Way less if you are using enhance wild shape all day. The healer, on the other hand, has 4 5ths, 5 4ths, 7 3rds (mostly hammers of righteousness). Your Call Avalanche, does 28 damage, reflex for half. Most of us have good reflex saves. So the monk pulls out the healer. The healer drops a mass cure mod for 2d8+9+cha, and a couple of cure lights on whoever is left. You have used a bigger % of your daily resources than we did, assuming that we let you get your spell off.

[Deophaun]

Fine. you pop out your tentacles and begin casting SNA or call avalanche. That takes a round, now we see you...
Why does the party see the druid? Is the world a flat, featureless plane? No, it's not. If SNA, the druid has full cover and concealment. Camouflage is a first level spell. The party doesn't hear him, because his mouth is in the ethereal plane, so he can shout the verbal components and it won't reveal his location.

Swift action for a corsairs eyepatch, eat a bunch of damage.
A) Corsairs eyepatch functions for three rounds in the entire day. B) By virtue of being ethereal, the druid can easily be inside a tree, or in the ground. So great, the party can see him. The healer casts her maximized spell at him. It hits a solid object before it hits him. Healer takes three strength damage (maximized). Good job.

And if the party has permanent see invisibility, they don't anymore. Dispel magic. As always, the druid appreciates them making their gear vulnerable.

[Gnaeus]

Why does the party see the druid? Is the world a flat, featureless plane? No, it's not. If SNA, the druid has full cover and concealment. Camouflage is a first level spell. The party doesn't hear him, because his mouth is in the ethereal plane, so he can shout the verbal components and it won't reveal his location.

A) Corsairs eyepatch functions for three rounds in the entire day. B) By virtue of being ethereal, the druid can easily be inside a tree, or in the ground. So great, the party can see him. The healer casts her maximized spell at him. It hits a solid object before it hits him. Healer takes three strength damage (maximized). Good job.

And if the party has permanent see invisibility, they don't anymore. Dispel magic. As always, the druid appreciates them making their gear vulnerable.

If you are in a tree, you can't cast spells. The tree blocks your line of effect just like mine.

How do you know the fighter or ninja has permanent see invisibility? You going to pop into existence and cast detect magic? Then try a dispel check against a higher level caster? Oh, and if you have dispel magic, thats one less spell you have for your feeble offence, and it means that you can't be using enhance wild shape all day, so now my chances of catching you on material are higher.

Come to think of it, you can't even communicate with your summons. So while you can get them to attack us, you have no good way to make them use their spell likes like wall of thorns.

And the world doesn't have to be a flat, featureless plane. It just requires us to be moving at some point in such a way that you can't keep cover between us and you. Camoflage is not hide in plain sight or invisibility. If you move out from behind cover at any point, we see you, no roll required.

Oh, and being ethereal allows you to pass through, but not see through solid objects (See Blink). So if you have total cover, you can't see us either, so your scouting kinda sucks. If you are somewhere where we can be seen, we can see you with see invis.

[Deophaun]

If you are in a tree, you can't cast spells. The tree blocks your line of effect just like mine.
Because we are always limited to moving before our standard action, never after.

How do you know the fighter or ninja has permanent see invisibility? You going to pop into existence and cast detect magic?
I could ask how the party knows the druid is ethereal? That said, the druid doesn't need to know it to cast dispel magic. A party of adventurers are coming after him? He's casting it.

But he certainly could. At night, when the party's camped.

Then try a dispel check against a higher level caster?
Not that much higher.

Oh, and if you have dispel magic, thats one less spell you have for your feeble offence, and it means that you can't be using enhance wild shape all day, so now my chances of catching you on material are higher.
A) One less spell when the druid can pick the party apart at his leisure is nothing. The druid can keep this up for months if need be. B) He's still enhanced for 18 hours of the day. Of course, at level 10, he's still enhanced for the entire day. C)The druid is glad that the party thinks his offense is feeble. It means the party has no idea what's happening.

[Gnaeus]

Because we are always limited to moving before our standard action, never after.

If it is a surprise round, you can't move if you are casting. If your tentacles are in the material, you can't enter a solid object.


I could ask how the party knows the druid is ethereal? That said, the druid doesn't need to know it to cast dispel magic. A party of adventurers are coming after him? He's casting it.

Nothing I suggested implies that we know the druid is ethereal. All I am assuming is that we know we are facing a druid.

So the druid always packs dispel magic in his only level 4 slot that isn't enhance wild shape, and whenever there is a potential encounter, before he scouts it out, his first reaction is to become partially material and cast his AOE dispel. Not a targeted dispel at the likely magic users, but an AOE dispel on a probably unbuffed party? Odd tactics.



But he certainly could. At night, when the party's camped.

Super. In the three rounds while you are material, within 60, and concentrating on a spell, you are meat.




A) One less spell when the druid can pick the party apart at his leisure is nothing. The druid can keep this up for months if need be.

And the first time he makes an error, he dies. If he has less than 80 HP at level 9, he dies the first time he fails a fort save. I'm happy enough playing cat and mouse.


B) He's still enhanced for 18 hours of the day. Of course, at level 10, he's still enhanced for the entire day

The higher level we go, the higher our WBL bonus gets. At level 9, we can out spend you by 180,000 gp. At level 10, that number goes to 245000. And since we can sell your gear once we killed you, once you have tried this on us once or twice, our willingness to spend 10 or 20k in scrolls when we go to town specifically to kill you becomes very reasonable. Shoot, lets buy 3 rings of Blink. It isn't like we will throw them away when the druid dies.


C)The druid is glad that the party thinks his offense is feeble. It means the party has no idea what's happening.

The healer is glad that the druid doesn't think the party understands. Because we have more resources, we will win a war of attrition. And if we get the drop on the druid once, its over.

Actually, now that I look at, vision for an ethereal creature on the material plane is only 60 feet. That means that you are following us pretty darn closely. Even short range attacks are likely to work.

[Deophaun]

If it is a surprise round, you can't move if you are casting. If your tentacles are in the material, you can't enter a solid object.
It's a surprise round. The party doesn't get to move at all.

Nothing I suggested implies that we know the druid is ethereal. All I am assuming is that we know we are facing a druid.
Who are known for their invisibility/etherealness.

So the druid always packs dispel magic in his only level 4 slot that isn't enhance wild shape, and whenever there is a potential encounter, before he scouts it out, his first reaction is to become partially material and cast his AOE dispel. Not a targeted dispel at the likely magic users, but an AOE dispel on a probably unbuffed party? Odd tactics.
Notice how many assumptions you packed into that statement? The druid has been scouting the party out. For days.

Super. In the three rounds while you are material, within 60, and concentrating on a spell, you are meat.
Concentration can be broken at will and it's a standard and a move back to safety. Plus, camouflage. For some reason you have this belief that the druid just appears in the open, in full view of everyone, and doesn't bother to stealth at all. That's simply not going to happen.

And the first time he makes an error, he dies.
No, the first time he makes an error, he gets an owwie.

The higher level we go, the higher our WBL bonus gets. At level 9, we can out spend you by 180,000 gp.
And the party is still having trouble with only class features. The druid I've proposed not only hasn't spent any WBL yet, he's also got at least one free feat, and an undefined race. Pelor help this party if he starts acquiring equipment.

The healer is glad that the druid doesn't think the party understands. Because we have more resources, we will win a war of attrition. And if we get the drop on the druid once, its over.
As I said, you don't understand. You may have more resources, but they're finite; they've blown it on wands, potions, and dispel-vulnerable permanency. The longer this goes on, the weaker the party gets. Meanwhile, the druid gets all of his stuff back every day. Attrition is a one-way street here.

Actually, now that I look at, vision for an ethereal creature on the material plane is only 60 feet. That means that you are following us pretty darn closely. Even short range attacks are likely to work.
They aren't likely to work at all because the druid never has to emerge from the ground.

[Gnaeus]

It's a surprise round. The party doesn't get to move at all.

So then we roll initiative. You are still visible and material. You lose init, you get spanked hard.


Who are known for their invisibility/etherealness.

If I were specifically aiming to kill an ethereal critter, its no contest. I assumed that the party would have a corsairs eyepatch (cheap and useful) and that it was very likely that one of the muggles in a 6 man party had a reliable way to see invis at will, like a permanencied see invis. There are lots of other ways. That one is pretty cheap and core. An optimized 9th level party will have ways to detect/fight invisible/incorporeal opponents. And we are talking about optimized characters here, since you are dumpster diving for obscure feats and forms.


Notice how many assumptions you packed into that statement? The druid has been scouting the party out. For days.

And since we know the target is an etherial tentacle beast the first time you cross a hallway, we all have each others measure.


Concentration can be broken at will and it's a standard and a move back to safety. Plus, camouflage. For some reason you have this belief that the druid just appears in the open, in full view of everyone, and doesn't bother to stealth at all. That's simply not going to happen.

For some reason you think that your stealth is 100% effective against a group of 6 characters, several of which can afford good hide/move silently, and their pets, notably the unicorn, which also has scent and good spot/listen. Camouflage is just a +10, on a class without hide/move silently in class, in a race without a very good dex. It doesn't guarantee that you will always have cover every minute of every day. It isn't even always on. It lasts for less than 2 hours.




And the party is still having trouble with only class features. The druid I've proposed not only hasn't spent any WBL yet, he's also got at least one free feat, and an undefined race. Pelor help this party if he starts acquiring equipment.

You have 36 k left to spend. I have more than 155k left to spend. All I've bought is 2 dispel magic wands, a corsairs eyepatch, one permanent spell, and a metamagic rod. You spent 3 feats (2 for aberrant wildshape, one for natural spell) and have 1 left. I spent 3 feats (2 for reckless wand wielder, one for skill focus UMD) and I have 21 left (+5 combat feats on the fighter, + monk bonus feats). If we include flaws and human, you have 4 feats (which must all be level 1 or 3), and I have 39 feats left. Blizzard? Haboob? Wall of Thorns? Iron Heart Surge. Lets make the ninja a fake druid with Fey Heritage line. Now, when you stand behind a tree and cast SNA 5, he drops a Confusion somewhere near you and if you fail your save you are likely screwed. Give our monk a fiendish legacy, so now he can teleport, and his job is to go back to town and buy the exact gear we need to kill ethereal druids with 100 k gold (And also, both the monk and ninja now get summons that are about as good as yours, so theres that). Yeah, you have options, but I have lots more options.


As I said, you don't understand. You may have more resources, but they're finite; they've blown it on wands, potions, and dispel-vulnerable permanency. The longer this goes on, the weaker the party gets. Meanwhile, the druid gets all of his stuff back every day. Attrition is a one-way street here.

Nope. By the statement listed, you are a BBEG. It is assumed that expendables will be used against a BBEG. Thats part of the normal WBL progression. Even if you did successfully end the permanency and drain both wands, and even if we incorrectly assumed that normal use of expendables was not recovered during normal adventuring, you have still only burned through less than 40k of the 70k we get just between level 9 and 10. And thats the best case for you. Remember that the healer has more spells than you, so any encounter where you don't do more damage than he can heal with equivalent level heal spells costs us nothing. We get more free healing from the paladin.


They aren't likely to work at all because the druid never has to emerge from the ground. Then you probably can't see us at all. I don't see anywhere that it says that ethereals see through solid objects. The blink description says that blinking creatures cannot, which I find persuasive. I know in PF they can't. Even if you can, you can't detect magic or do any of the other things you want to do from inside the ground, and you certainly have to come up and materialize to do anything.

Edit
Ethereal beings can see and hear what is happening in the same area of the Material Plane to a distance of 60 feet, though material objects still block sight and sound. (An ethereal creature can't see through a material wall, for instance.)

So lurk underground all you want. You may as well be on Mars.

[weckar]

Why an Expert, and not a Master?

[Gnaeus]

Why an Expert, and not a Master?

Because the Master would go back in time and kill the Druid's mother.

[Seppo87]

How about we try this once and for all?

I can be the judge if nobody else wants to.

[Rakaydos]

Concerning Scouting, didnt someone mention using Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) to seed the forest with woodland creatures who can scout the party for the druid?

As for rolling Inititive... how many of the PCs have a decent dex bonus? I'll grant the fighter Improved Inititive and the Ninja a high stat, but I'm not seeing any of your UMD characters having that high of a bonus.

[Gnaeus]

Concerning Scouting, didnt someone mention using Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) to seed the forest with woodland creatures who can scout the party for the druid?

Other than general physical descriptions, I'm not really seeing how effective that will be. It isn't like the druid is going to have that hard a time figuring out what we look like or generally where we are. And if he makes 4 minions, we are up 1k exp on him. If he seeds the forest with woodland creatures, we may be up half a level.


As for rolling Inititive... how many of the PCs have a decent dex bonus? I'll grant the fighter Improved Inititive and the Ninja a high stat, but I'm not seeing any of your UMD characters having that high of a bonus.

I was assuming dex as the secondary stat for the expert and the paladin. Maybe the primary based on point buy. Both of them don't really need any other stats besides charisma, and a 14 charisma should suffice. Both have enough feats to blow one for imp init, especially if human or flaws are allowed, since their primary job against caster foes is to ready to counterspell. They have 3 muggles with nothing better to do than hit things with sticks, so the paladin doesn't need to optimize for melee. He's basically just another wand wielder.

[Doug Lampert]

Other than general physical descriptions, I'm not really seeing how effective that will be. It isn't like the druid is going to have that hard a time figuring out what we look like or generally where we are. And if he makes 4 minions, we are up 1k exp on him. If he seeds the forest with woodland creatures, we may be up half a level.



I was assuming Dex as the secondary stat for the expert and the paladin. Maybe the primary based on point buy. Both of them don't really need any other stats besides charisma, and a 14 charisma should suffice. Both have enough feats to blow one for imp init, especially if human or flaws are allowed, since their primary job against caster foes is to ready to counterspell. They have 3 muggles with nothing better to do than hit things with sticks, so the paladin doesn't need to optimize for melee. He's basically just another wand wielder.

Wait, how did this bozo GET to level 9? He's a paladin who's dumped everything that would make him effective in actual combat. You're building to both the challenge and the level, and I'm pretty sure someone has already brought up buying partially charged wands for the party!

Then there's the whole argument that "I get free Pegasi because I want them" and "I get free mithral barding because I LIKE needing to spend several years crafting." (Note: The DMG rules for starting at higher level allows magic item crafting pre-play, IIRC nothing is said that would enable pre-play mundane crafting or animal training.)

Meanwhile those openly advocating druid without having spent anything much on items and have generally used a rather modest number of feats and built toward a viable 1-20 build.

They do want some minions, which is normal for a BBEG and overwhelmingly likely for a BBEG who can make his own.

When I started reading this thread I figured the druid would lose at most levels, WBL and Action Economy are very powerful things, but you guys have convinced me. If you need a paladin who's SPECIALIZED in wand use to the exclusion of actual paladin stuff and wants partially charged wand purchase it's because your party is so desperately weak as to have no chance in a real fight with vaguely realistic party planned to be playable against a range of threats from levels 1-20.

Similar comment for most of the rest of this. Seriously, I'm convinced, you can go back and edit in the blue text to these supposedly pro-group posts, it's obvious that no one is actually making a serious argument for that side at all.

Really, this is like a monkday thread x6.

[Deophaun]

So then we roll initiative. You are still visible and material. You lose init, you get spanked hard.
And you still have to know where the druid is. And when the druid sticks a tentacle out, well, he's not limited to 60 ft. visibility any more.

And since we know the target is an etherial tentacle beast the first time you cross a hallway, we all have each others measure.
Blow more WBL and I just switch to a different form.

For some reason you think that your stealth is 100% effective against a group of 6 characters, several of which can afford good hide/move silently, and their pets, notably the unicorn, which also has scent and good spot/listen.
The party's hide/move silently is irrelevant. For one, they can't hide while being observed, and it doesn't help you see anything anyway. The Unicorn is the only threat, but scent can be neutralized by being downwind (which is nice, because the druid can always determine when and where an encounter takes place). Plus, add distance penalties and the druid has a +17-18 to his Hide check versus a +11 to Spot. Depending on how much the DM cares about verisimilitude, the druid could also have a +8 Hide bonus as the tentacle is probably the size of a tiny creature.

You have 36 k left to spend. I have more than 155k left to spend. All I've bought is 2 dispel magic wands, a corsairs eyepatch, one permanent spell, and a metamagic rod.
Try buying something that matters then. I'm waiting.

You spent 3 feats (2 for aberrant wildshape, one for natural spell) and have 1 left. I spent 3 feats (2 for reckless wand wielder, one for skill focus UMD) and I have 21 left (+5 combat feats on the fighter, + monk bonus feats).
15. You forgot that everyone's taken Improved Initiative.

If we include flaws and human, you have 4 feats (which must all be level 1 or 3), and I have 39 feats left. Blizzard? Haboob? Wall of Thorns? Iron Heart Surge.
I'll give you IHS, but if you're triggering it on a Haboob... you don't have a refresh mechanic. That's it.

Lets make the ninja a fake druid with Fey Heritage line. Now, when you stand behind a tree and cast SNA 5, he drops a Confusion somewhere near you and if you fail your save you are likely screwed.
Confusion affects a 15' burst. At level 9, when you get this, SNA has a range of 45 feet. That's a massive area where the spell could have come from. Furthermore, the spell comes into effect at the beginning of the druid's turn. So the ally comes in and the druid goes ethereal again, and moves. The ninja's confusion never comes into play.

Give our monk a fiendish legacy, so now he can teleport, and his job is to go back to town and buy the exact gear we need to kill ethereal druids with 100 k gold (And also, both the monk and ninja now get summons that are about as good as yours, so theres that). Yeah, you have options, but I have lots more options.
I love it. Spend more money and divide the party. Man, you are going to be surprised when you learn druids can turn into more than one form. I'm having the druid stick with this one to see how much gold I can get the party to waste combating a single line of attack.

Nope. By the statement listed, you are a BBEG. It is assumed that expendables will be used against a BBEG. Thats part of the normal WBL progression.
That's fine. But the party still has to beat the BBEG to recover it. The party does not have an unlimited amount of funds to spend on consumables.

Even if you did successfully end the permanency and drain both wands, and even if we incorrectly assumed that normal use of expendables was not recovered during normal adventuring, you have still only burned through less than 40k of the 70k we get just between level 9 and 10. And thats the best case for you. Remember that the healer has more spells than you, so any encounter where you don't do more damage than he can heal with equivalent level heal spells costs us nothing. We get more free healing from the paladin.
Which is why the druid's goal is to separate the party, and the exemplar and the healer are the primary targets. Don't worry. When the druid decides to do more than a probing attack, one of those will die.

Then you probably can't see us at all.
The druid can see you just fine. Line of sight is measured from the corners. Honestly, it's a single tentacle that needs to break the plane.

Even if you can, you can't detect magic or do any of the other things you want to do from inside the ground, and you certainly have to come up and materialize to do anything.
That is true. But I'm not limited to 60ft. then.

[Gnaeus]

Wait, how did this bozo GET to level 9? He's a paladin who's dumped everything that would make him effective in actual combat. You're building to both the challenge and the level, and I'm pretty sure someone has already brought up buying partially charged wands for the party!

Because he is in a party of 6. If I was sitting down with my 5 buddies, and the DM told us we all had to face Tier 1 casters with tier 5s, we would specialize. The paladin is a backup caster. He needs to fill a slot that is more helpful than "additional meatshield". The fighter and ninja have been doing adequate damage since level 1. Why SHOULDN't the paladin have been rocking a wand of bless at that level and buffing on the first round of combat.


And you still have to know where the druid is. And when the druid sticks a tentacle out, well, he's not limited to 60 ft. visibility any more.

The druid can see you just fine. Line of sight is measured from the corners. Honestly, it's a single tentacle that needs to break the plane.

That is true. But I'm not limited to 60ft. then.

If you are material and can see and target me, I can see and target you.


Blow more WBL and I just switch to a different form.

Great. Unless that form is immune to damage, I can eat your lunch. The only thing keeping you alive at all is the etherealness.


The party's hide/move silently is irrelevant. For one, they can't hide while being observed, and it doesn't help you see anything anyway.

Sorry, I said hide/move silently when I meant spot listen. You still lack hide as a class skill, and we still get half a dozen spot checks.


Plus, add distance penalties and the druid has a +17-18 to his Hide check versus a +11 to Spot. Depending on how much the DM cares about verisimilitude, the druid could also have a +8 Hide bonus as the tentacle is probably the size of a tiny creature.

Rules don't work that way. You are a medium creature. You can dumpster dive for a cheesy form, but you are still medium. When the tentacle is in the open and material I can see it. And as I mentioned, I meant spot/listen, not hide/move silently. Ninjas have spot in class, and in class reasons to have decent wisdom. The expert has skills to burn and no reason not to have spot and listen in class.


Try buying something that matters then. I'm waiting.

Right back at you. So far, your attacks have been 8d6 reflex for half and summon a creature which will immediately be beaten into a bloody spot. I have suggested a viable route to blow you to hades. I admit, if your strategy is to annoy me to death, I might have to make a will save. Otherwise, I'm not worried.


15. You forgot that everyone's taken Improved Initiative.

The fighter, and probably the pally and expert. The fighter did it with a bonus feat. That leaves 19.


I'll give you IHS, but if you're triggering it on a Haboob... you don't have a refresh mechanic. That's it.

I don't need one. You have 5 total 5th and 4th level spells. One is Dispel Magic. 2 are Enhance wild shape. You have 2 5s left. If I choose to go fey/fiendish, I have 2 level 5 summons of my own, and 4 5th level spells from the healer. If you run away and come back, IHS will have refreshed. So now we know you are there, we stopped your spell with no expenditure, and you will.........


Confusion affects a 15' burst. At level 9, when you get this, SNA has a range of 45 feet. That's a massive area where the spell could have come from. Furthermore, the spell comes into effect at the beginning of the druid's turn. So the ally comes in and the druid goes ethereal again, and moves. The ninja's confusion never comes into play.

Fair enough. But it will work fine if you try to say cast a spell and then move your tentacle behind cover. Which SNA 5 is actually a threat to my party again?


I love it. Spend more money and divide the party. Man, you are going to be surprised when you learn druids can turn into more than one form. I'm having the druid stick with this one to see how much gold I can get the party to waste combating a single line of attack.

We don't have to spend anything. You haven't suggested an effective attack yet.


That's fine. But the party still has to beat the BBEG to recover it. The party does not have an unlimited amount of funds to spend on consumables.

Plenty for these skirmishes. You act like we are spending huge amounts of gold in each one. Each dispel costs about 300 gp. And thats if we have a dispel-worthy target. Holding readied actions costs us nothing.


Which is why the druid's goal is to separate the party, and the exemplar and the healer are the primary targets. Don't worry. When the druid decides to do more than a probing attack, one of those will die.

Yawn. All talk. No damage.

[Lans]

Would the paladin going sword of arcane order and grabbing appropriate appropriate ACFs be better than him being an umd wand user? I think he can grab DMM persist along with it if it matters

[Dorian Gray]

Fair enough. But it will work fine if you try to say cast a spell and then move your tentacle behind cover. Which SNA 5 is actually a threat to my party again?


Dire Lion? Giant Constrictor Snake? 1d3 Yellow Musk Creepers? 1d3 Giant Crocodiles? All of those would seriously hurt the party, and would take a lot of resources to kill/recover from.

[Jack_Simth]

...and talk about the Evil Druid who is blighting the lands. For the good of the community, they must defeat him!

Assuming equal level, 1v6... at what levels does the fight go unstoppably one way or the other?
Unstoppably either way? Never. Player > Build > Class. Assuming the players are roughly equally skilled, I'd mostly give it to the party rather than the druid, but the dice will reign at any level.

In a straight up fight, known: At most levels, assuming relatively equal optimization, and that both parties have a pretty good idea what's up: The group of six will probably win, but it's not a given.
At low levels, dice and the action economy advantage suggest that the group of six will probably win. Far from reliable, though.
At mid levels, the expert and Ninja can both use UMD, which means that if they plan this out and pool resources, the party can indeed out-cast the Druid if they choose to go that route (or just have a few high caster level scrolls / wands of (Greater) Dispel Magic handy to strip the Druid of buffs and counter any spells the Druid might use). Additionally, the party Healer gets neutralisers for a lot of the Druid's status and battlefield control spells. Meanwhile, the Paladin, Fighter, and Monk can see about meleeing the Druid to death (possibly after drinking a potion of Fly each). Lots of die rolls, though.
At high levels, the expert and Ninja can both UMD high caster level scrolls of Greater Dispel Magic, while the Healer can Gate in powerful allies. Druid has several useful things, but probably can't keep up. Paladin, Fighter, and Monk fly over to the druid and begin bashing as well. Lots of die rolls, but Gate gives things the Druid has a much harder time of obtaining.

In a war of stealth, known: Assuming that both teams know approximately what's up: I'm calling this one about even, with the Druid having a bit of an edge.
At low levels: Ninja, Expert, and Monk get actual stealth skills. The Druid gets Spot and Listen, and has Wisdom as a primary stat, so has reasonable odds of knowing one of the three is coming. As the scenario has the Druid playing defense, and the Druid gets the AC, Druid is probably ahead here, but it's really a roll of the dice, mostly because they effectively can't make any use of the fighter, Druid, and Healer.
At mid levels: Druid is very difficult to find... but not impossible; the Druid doesn't have any way to avoid Arcane Sight, which both the Ninja and Expert can arrange to have Permanencied (UMD). The Druid has a significant advantage in finding the other team (Scrying), and Wildshape means that when the Druid does find the team, that the team can be taken out from extreme range while the Druid is almost impossible to finger... if the Druid remembers to keep enough range, and prepares enough long-range offensive spells to exhaust the healer. This will probably end up as a Draw, but I think the Druid has a bit of an edge.
At high levels: Discern Location + Gate from the Healer. It's now a straight-up fight again, and I gave that to the team of six earlier.

Straight-up fight, Druid Surprised: Druid's dead. Tier-1 casters pretty much have to prepare to have a decent chance. Druid's best option is to run away and turn it into a known war of stealth or come back with a known straight-up fight.

War of stealth, Druid Surprised: Druid's dead. Tier-1 casters pretty much have to prepare to have a decent chance. I'd say the Druid's best option (if the Druid gets an action at all, which is not a given) is to run away and turn it into a known war of stealth or come back with a known straight-up fight

Party Surprised: Does not fit the presented scenario, so I'm ignoring this.

[Gnaeus]

Dire Lion? Giant Constrictor Snake? 1d3 Yellow Musk Creepers? 1d3 Giant Crocodiles? All of those would seriously hurt the party, and would take a lot of resources to kill/recover from.

No, they really wouldn't. The creepers probably can't even hit the ninja or monk. They have to beat a DC 14 will save to be a threat at all. And with 22hp and 14 AC even the paladin should be able to kill one in a single round if he could be bothered.

The others are not even the equal of an optimized fighter. The dire lion averages less than 35 damage, IF all its attacks hit, including the rake. Its 15 AC and 60 hp can't survive even a round of attacks by ninja+monk+ fighter. If the level 5 spell managed to do 35 damage, the healer casts a cure Crit, and its done. I'll trade a 4th level healer spell (of which I have 5 compared with the Druid's 2 5th level spells and 0 free 4th level spells) any time.

Also remember, the druid has no way to direct them other than positioning and ordering to attack. He's on another plane in a form that can't speak. So it isn't like they will do anything but charge and die.

[Deophaun]

If you are material and can see and target me, I can see and target you.
The druid can hit the party from long range. So that's what, -40 to the party's Spot checks? And unless they're hiding all the time, the druid doesn't need to make a Spot check to see them.

Great. Unless that form is immune to damage, I can eat your lunch.
Some of them are for practical purposes. Will o' Wisp? Well, now they're limited to bows, and only one person has see invisibility.

Sorry, I said hide/move silently when I meant spot listen. You still lack hide as a class skill, and we still get half a dozen spot checks.
You've got two characters with Spot/Listen. Two characters. What's the watch rotation?

Rules don't work that way.
Actually, considering I talked about DM preference, and Rule 0 is a thing, they do work exactly that way.

Right back at you. So far, your attacks have been 8d6 reflex for half
And bury the party, dealing crushing damage every turn, which could rapidly be followed up with blizzard to bury them under an additional 10'.

and summon a creature which will immediately be beaten into a bloody spot.
Really? So, the party is going to immediately disengaged from the War Trolls that they're holding the line against to kill a summoned creature? Great! (Remember, the druid chooses when to engage; which could be in the middle of an ongoing combat)

I have suggested a viable route to blow you to hades.
Can you link me the thread?

The fighter, and probably the pally and expert. The fighter did it with a bonus feat. That leaves 19.
So only one of the characters the druid cares about has improved initiative.

I don't need one. You have 5 total 5th and 4th level spells. One is Dispel Magic.
For the first week. After which, I'm fairly confident the druid's CL check has taken out everything of value.

2 are Enhance wild shape. You have 2 5s left. If I choose to go fey/fiendish, I have 2 level 5 summons of my own, and 4 5th level spells from the healer. If you run away and come back, IHS will have refreshed. So now we know you are there, we stopped your spell with no expenditure, and you will...
Flesh to Salt the Healer.

Yawn. All talk. No damage.
Damage is the least effective way to deal with anything.

[Gnaeus]

Unstoppably either way? Never. Player > Build > Class. Assuming the players are roughly equally skilled, I'd mostly give it to the party rather than the druid, but the dice will reign at any level.

In a straight up fight, known: At most levels, assuming relatively equal optimization, and that both parties have a pretty good idea what's up: The group of six will probably win, but it's not a given.
At low levels, dice and the action economy advantage suggest that the group of six will probably win. Far from reliable, though.
At mid levels, the expert and Ninja can both use UMD, which means that if they plan this out and pool resources, the party can indeed out-cast the Druid if they choose to go that route (or just have a few high caster level scrolls / wands of (Greater) Dispel Magic handy to strip the Druid of buffs and counter any spells the Druid might use). Additionally, the party Healer gets neutralisers for a lot of the Druid's status and battlefield control spells. Meanwhile, the Paladin, Fighter, and Monk can see about meleeing the Druid to death (possibly after drinking a potion of Fly each). Lots of die rolls, though.
At high levels, the expert and Ninja can both UMD high caster level scrolls of Greater Dispel Magic, while the Healer can Gate in powerful allies. Druid has several useful things, but probably can't keep up. Paladin, Fighter, and Monk fly over to the druid and begin bashing as well. Lots of die rolls, but Gate gives things the Druid has a much harder time of obtaining.

In a war of stealth, known: Assuming that both teams know approximately what's up: I'm calling this one about even, with the Druid having a bit of an edge.
At low levels: Ninja, Expert, and Monk get actual stealth skills. The Druid gets Spot and Listen, and has Wisdom as a primary stat, so has reasonable odds of knowing one of the three is coming. As the scenario has the Druid playing defense, and the Druid gets the AC, Druid is probably ahead here, but it's really a roll of the dice, mostly because they effectively can't make any use of the fighter, Druid, and Healer.
At mid levels: Druid is very difficult to find... but not impossible; the Druid doesn't have any way to avoid Arcane Sight, which both the Ninja and Expert can arrange to have Permanencied (UMD). The Druid has a significant advantage in finding the other team (Scrying), and Wildshape means that when the Druid does find the team, that the team can be taken out from extreme range while the Druid is almost impossible to finger... if the Druid remembers to keep enough range, and prepares enough long-range offensive spells to exhaust the healer. This will probably end up as a Draw, but I think the Druid has a bit of an edge.
At high levels: Discern Location + Gate from the Healer. It's now a straight-up fight again, and I gave that to the team of six earlier.

Straight-up fight, Druid Surprised: Druid's dead. Tier-1 casters pretty much have to prepare to have a decent chance. Druid's best option is to run away and turn it into a known war of stealth or come back with a known straight-up fight.

War of stealth, Druid Surprised: Druid's dead. Tier-1 casters pretty much have to prepare to have a decent chance. I'd say the Druid's best option (if the Druid gets an action at all, which is not a given) is to run away and turn it into a known war of stealth or come back with a known straight-up fight

Party Surprised: Does not fit the presented scenario, so I'm ignoring this.


I mostly agree. But alas, Ninja can't UMD. At least it isn't in class or related to a primary stat. Thats why I was using the paladin in that role.

[Jack_Simth]

I mostly agree. But alas, Ninja can't UMD. At least it isn't in class or related to a primary stat. Thats why I was using the paladin in that role.

They can't? Checks. Huh, you're right. Still, yes, Paladin naturally has Charisma as one of the biggies, and has a regular Dispel Magic on the list, so can take over that with only a little cross-classery. The basic premise still works.

[Gnaeus]

Some of them are for practical purposes. Will o' Wisp? Well, now they're limited to bows, and only one person has see invisibility.

Permanently. Potions are a thing. Corsairs eyepatch is a better thing.


You've got two characters with Spot/Listen. Two characters. What's the watch rotation?

All the characters have spot/listen. Two are just much much better than you. Since you can't effectively spy on us astrally without giving yourself away, and this subthread only started because you were trying to figure out who can see invis, how can you tell the difference between the ninja, monk, and expert?


Actually, considering I talked about DM preference, and Rule 0 is a thing, they do work exactly that way.

Rule 0. Your druid could not possibly be familiar with an unusual planar creature enough to take its form. Mine's at least as likely as yours.


And bury the party, dealing crushing damage every turn, which could rapidly be followed up with blizzard to bury them under an additional 10'.

Our reflex saves are pretty good. We have a monk and a ninja. The Dex Focused paladin's is probably pretty good, and the unicorn has a decent save and improved evasion (and it gives us all +2 resist vs your spells, if it matters) The spell specifies that buried creatures can be freed. So you bury us. We pull out 2 party members. then it starts snowing, and you are out of 5th level spells, so we calmly dig out the others.


Really? So, the party is going to immediately disengaged from the War Trolls that they're holding the line against to kill a summoned creature? Great! (Remember, the druid chooses when to engage; which could be in the middle of an ongoing combat)

No, we will choose to force hammer you while you are attacked by ghosts on the ethereal plane. Please, you are making stuff up, and it is embarassing. Even if I granted your scenario, you still haven't presented any credible threat that could tip a battle one way or the other, but you DID just push up the ECL of an encounter into the stratosphere, enabling us to go all out with expendibles and accelerating the day when we level past you.

[Lans]

Flesh to Salt the Healer.

.
Seems like a bad choice, 1/2 level d6 then maybe a save or die effect against its one of its high saves?

[eggynack]

The spell specifies that buried creatures can be freed. So you bury us. We pull out 2 party members. then it starts snowing, and you are out of 5th level spells, so we calmly dig out the others.

Buried creatures can be freed, but it's not easy. The sidebar on the same page as call avalanche states that it takes a minute for a creature to clear its heavy load limit in snow. I don't think there's any way to divide that down, though the double speed thing might cut that to half a minute instead of doubling what you can move, so it's going to take at least 5-10 rounds to pull out 2 party members. That's assuming that you can move that much snow in that amount of time, and I doubt you can. It looks like the snow extends vertically to about 90 feet, and a cube of snow weights 500 pounds. Call avalanche is pretty awesome.

Edit:
Seems like a bad choice, 1/2 level d6 then maybe a save or die effect against its one of its high saves?
I agree. Baleful polymorph might be a better option, though it suffers a bit from dispel vulnerability.

[Deophaun]

Permanently. Potions are a thing. Corsairs eyepatch is a better thing.
3 rounds a day. It's no thing.

All the characters have spot/listen. Two are just much much better than you. Since you can't effectively spy on us astrally without giving yourself away, and this subthread only started because you were trying to figure out who can see invis, how can you tell the difference between the ninja, monk, and expert?
Does the party all have telepathy as well? They're bedding down for the night. You're telling me they don't talk to each other? Plan out loud? You're telling me the druid has to have Line of Sight to them? The druid? With listen as a class skill?

Rule 0. Your druid could not possibly be familiar with an unusual planar creature enough to take its form.
It's an aberration, not planar, and low HD. Also, you're forgetting that this is the BBEG. So you're saying that the DM has Rule 0'ed away his own villain. Does that often happen in your games?

Our reflex saves are pretty good. We have a monk and a ninja. The Dex Focused paladin's is probably pretty good, and the unicorn has a decent save and improved evasion (and it gives us all +2 resist vs your spells, if it matters) The spell specifies that buried creatures can be freed. So you bury us. We pull out 2 party members. then it starts snowing, and you are out of 5th level spells, so we calmly dig out the others.
Already pointed out how you grossly underestimate the amount of snow you're dealing with.

No, we will choose to force hammer you while you are attacked by ghosts on the ethereal plane.
I'm curious as to how the party is going to do that. The Druid is the BBEG, so it's easy for him to lure the party wherever in terrain with which he is familiar.

Please, you are making stuff up, and it is embarassing.
Yes. I have made up that there can be encounters besides a one on one with a druid. We all know how every campaign is a single fight where the characters are dropped into an arena, the BBEG gives his speech, and then they fight.

Even if I granted your scenario,
Do you understand how examples work? No, I think you don't.

Seems like a bad choice, 1/2 level d6 then maybe a save or die effect against its one of its high saves?
The save or die is what I'm after, and eggynack has pointed out the dispel angle. Remember: this is not a case of the druid ever committing to a fight. He's hit and run, and he's willing to do this over a long stretch of time. Yeah, in a singular encounter, flesh to salt isn't a good choice. But, we're talking a dozen encounters. Each one, the Healer has to SoD. So, we're in a case of "save until you fail."

And even then, the Healer would have a +15 to Fort maybe? A druid with a Wis of 20, owl's wisdom, and owl's insight forces a DC 24 Fort save. It's not a sure thing for the Healer.

[Lans]

The save or die is what I'm after, and eggynack has pointed out the dispel angle. Remember: this is not a case of the druid ever committing to a fight. He's hit and run, and he's willing to do this over a long stretch of time. Yeah, in a singular encounter, flesh to salt isn't a good choice. But, we're talking a dozen encounters. Each one, the Healer has to SoD. So, we're in a case of "save until you fail."

And even then, the Healer would have a +15 to Fort maybe? A druid with a Wis of 20, owl's wisdom, and owl's insight forces a DC 24 Fort save. It's not a sure thing for the Healer.

Except the save only happens after you deal 1/2 the healers hp with it, so its unlikely to even get to the Save or part.

[Deophaun]

Except the save only happens after you deal 1/2 the healers hp with it, so its unlikely to even get to the Save or part.
Meh. There's a lot of 3rd-level slots for vortex of teeth.

[Doug Lampert]

Because he is in a party of 6. If I was sitting down with my 5 buddies, and the DM told us we all had to face Tier 1 casters with tier 5s, we would specialize. The paladin is a backup caster. He needs to fill a slot that is more helpful than "additional meatshield". The fighter and ninja have been doing adequate damage since level 1. Why SHOULDN't the paladin have been rocking a wand of bless at that level and buffing on the first round of combat.

The first post indicates that these characters got together specifically to fight this foe, there is no indication that they were designed as a party or were together prior to this.

This should be a character who was viable in a range of adventures from level 1 on. Not a character built for this particular encounter, and your builds don't even pretend to come close.

If you assume a continuing group then the BBEG is one of dozens of adventures, and they aren't built for it. If you assume the casual grouping implied by meeting in a bar then they weren't built for it and won't pool resources.

That you feel the NEED to build for this specific encounter while the druid advocates present builds viable from level 1 to whatever, that you feel the NEED to have character's spend half their wealth per level on a consumable of limited general use, those are HOW you have convinced me of the implausible conclusion that a druid is just so much more powerful that WBL and action economy won't crush him.

[Tysis]

Couldn't the party just use +1 binding flasks of acid to make ranged touch attacks at the tentacles and trap them on the material plane for 10 minutes?

[Seer_of_Heart]

I say the 6 man party probably wins since they can DCS their feats to grant themselves 9th level spells. A 4th level fighter could be built easily to get enough feats for that. (2 leveling, 4 elf, 3 from fighter, 2 for worshiping an elder evil, 4 for armor/shield proficencies that say fighters get the feats for free. Then it's just a matter of abusing things like shape change or other 9ths.

[dascarletm]

The first post indicates that these characters got together specifically to fight this foe, there is no indication that they were designed as a party or were together prior to this.

This should be a character who was viable in a range of adventures from level 1 on. Not a character built for this particular encounter, and your builds don't even pretend to come close.

If you assume a continuing group then the BBEG is one of dozens of adventures, and they aren't built for it. If you assume the casual grouping implied by meeting in a bar then they weren't built for it and won't pool resources.

That you feel the NEED to build for this specific encounter while the druid advocates present builds viable from level 1 to whatever, that you feel the NEED to have character's spend half their wealth per level on a consumable of limited general use, those are HOW you have convinced me of the implausible conclusion that a druid is just so much more powerful that WBL and action economy won't crush him.

I'll just leave this here....



Best part, this will work just as well with the evil cleric next week, and the evil wizard the week after that.

Also....



It's an aberration, not planar, and low HD. Also, you're forgetting that this is the BBEG. So you're saying that the DM has Rule 0'ed away his own villain. Does that often happen in your games?


Yeah, and fighters are better than wizards, because none of my players play fighters, and since I only make fighters the BBEG, I rule 0 that they can't be negatively impacted by casters of any kind. I mean fighters are just way too cool for that. So really fighters are better because rule 0.



Yes. I have made up that there can be encounters besides a one on one with a druid. We all know how every campaign is a single fight where the characters are dropped into an arena, the BBEG gives his speech, and then they fight.


See extraneous variables.

[Lans]

Meh. There's a lot of 3rd-level slots for vortex of teeth.

Your looking at a different vortex if teeth than I am... 3d8 damage on the start of your turn and 4th level

[Angelalex242]

For purposes of the exercise, the druid must be evil, or else most of a Paladin's offense doesn't work. (and if he's not evil, the correct answer is diplomacy the druid, not kill him.) Since druids must be part neutral, the druid is therefore Neutral Evil, with all that implies.

As for actually creating these characters...

Hand everyone (including the druid) a 32 point buy, and go from there. Many of the tier 5s have serious MAD problems, so lower point buys only help the druid (with a 25 point buy, the Druid starts with wisdom 18, doesn't care about his other stats, and grins. The monk and paladin cry, a lot.)

Or raise it higher then 32 if you like, suit yourself about that.

Anyways, my Paladins tend to have a dex of 12, and not one point more. Just enough to get the most possible out of the full plate he'll be wearing. Charisma and Strength are my top priorities.

[eggynack]

For purposes of the exercise, the druid must be evil, or else most of a Paladin's offense doesn't work. (and if he's not evil, the correct answer is diplomacy the druid, not kill him.) Since druids must be part neutral, the druid is therefore Neutral Evil, with all that implies.

This doesn't seem like a fair assertion. It's not really the druid's responsibility to make decisions based on what would be optimal for the opposition, and non-evil characters can have issues worth fighting over with other non-evil characters. Besides, evil is the least optimal druid alignment, with neutral and good acting as far better options, depending on factors. You don't really get anything out of evil, except for access to random crappy stuff like talontar blightlord.

[Lans]

This doesn't seem like a fair assertion. It's not really the druid's responsibility to make decisions based on what would be optimal for the opposition, and non-evil characters can have issues worth fighting over with other non-evil characters. Besides, evil is the least optimal druid alignment, with neutral and good acting as far better options, depending on factors. You don't really get anything out of evil, except for access to random crappy stuff like talontar blightlord.

Well, it is the premise of the thread...

[eggynack]

Well, it is the premise of the thread...
Perhaps, though it is a premise I questioned pretty early on, and it is certainly not a premise based on what a paladin would want to fight. As is, I see no compelling reason for this druid to be evil.

[Rakaydos]

Given the problems the druid is causing the surrounding lands, and Druid's alignment requirements, Say it's either Neutral Evil or Chaotic Neutral.

Either one would work for the Abberant Druid that's been suggested as the base villian...

[dascarletm]

Big Bad Evil Guy

Yes I know it's a saying, but still.

[Angelalex242]

As I so enjoyed saying whenever Paladin Ethics comes up elsewhere...

Quoth the Book of Exalted Deeds:Violence against good is not good. As such, the paladin should never raise his sword against a good opponent. Diplomacy is the only option.

Even with Good vs. Neutral, diplomacy is the first option. You go in there sword sheathed and try to work it out. Only if the Druid is evil can the Paladin go in sword swinging.

Ethics, ethics, ethics. Never forget ethics in a Paladin thread.

The Paladin's presence also prevents the party members from being evil, or doing evil deeds in their attempt to kill the druid. This must also be factored into the battle.

[eggynack]

Given the problems the druid is causing the surrounding lands, and Druid's alignment requirements, Say it's either Neutral Evil or Chaotic Neutral.

Either one would work for the Abberant Druid that's been suggested as the base villian...
Chaotic neutral is an acceptable alignment.

Big Bad Evil Guy

Yes I know it's a saying, but still.
Seems like a descriptive rather than prescriptive thing, I think.

As I so enjoyed saying whenever Paladin Ethics comes up elsewhere...

Quoth the Book of Exalted Deeds:Violence against good is not good. As such, the paladin should never raise his sword against a good opponent. Diplomacy is the only option.

Even with Good vs. Neutral, diplomacy is the first option. You go in there sword sheathed and try to work it out. Only if the Druid is evil can the Paladin go in sword swinging.

Ethics, ethics, ethics. Never forget ethics in a Paladin thread.
That's the paladin's prerogative. The druid's going to just keep on keeping on, doing things that the paladin presumably disagrees with. If you'd like, the combat could theoretically take place in a universe where diplomacy has been attempted, but failed.

[Talya]

I think the idea is no ACF's that modify Tier...

Sword of the Arcane Order is a feat, not an ACF. And does it modify tier? Paladin Casting is still pretty limited, even by virtue of the number of spell slots at levels they get...

[Angelalex242]

Okay.

We need to determine just what this druid is doing that's so terrible to get a Paladin on his case in the first place.

What 'evil' has the druid done? Why is the fight happening? What's the backstory? I expect 4 paragraphs at least before I make a call on what the Paladin should do.

[eggynack]

Okay.

We need to determine just what this druid is doing that's so terrible to get a Paladin on his case in the first place.

What 'evil' has the druid done? Why is the fight happening? What's the backstory? I expect 4 paragraphs at least before I make a call on what the Paladin should do.
Does it really matter all that much? I feel like, even if it's not necessarily true in a normal game, the answer is that the paladin is going to take whatever action will lead to the druid's death in the most expedient manner possible. It's not like anyone's going to call for an immediate forfeiture of paladinhood after the fight, and even if someone were to do so, the fight would still be over in team tier 5's favor. I'd rather this not turn into a paladin code alignment change thread, even if it could feasible do so.

[ben-zayb]

I agree. Why is the Druid's alignment even being questioned? Is it really so unbelievable that evil Druids exist, or to make up a fluff for such druid that easily fits the "paladin schmuck and other schmucks meet in a bar and tries to take on the evil druid" scenario?

We're PnP/PbP players, you know. I'd like to think imagination is one of our schtick.:smalltongue:

[eggynack]

I agree. Why is the Druid's alignment even being questioned? Is it really so unbelievable that evil Druids exist, or to make up a fluff for such druid that easily fits the "paladin schmuck and other schmucks meet in a bar and tries to take on the evil druid" scenario?

I don't think this is the thing at issue. My argument is that the druid isn't evil, or isn't necessarily evil, primarily because I seek the marginally higher capacity for optimization made available by being non-evil. In particular, good druids get the benefit of exalted feats and the ability to self-target luminous armor, neutral druids can cast spells ranging from vile to sanctified, and evil druids get next to nothing.

[ben-zayb]

I don't think this is the thing at issue. My argument is that the druid isn't evil, or isn't necessarily evil, primarily because I seek the marginally higher capacity for optimization made available by being non-evil. In particular, good druids get the benefit of exalted feats and the ability to self-target luminous armor, neutral druids can cast spells ranging from vile to sanctified, and evil druids get next to nothing.I should have specified: I agree with Lans.

Evil Druid is the Premise of the thread. If we go out of our way to change the premise (spoken and tacit, such as no Pun-Pun) to fit optimization options, I'd vote +1 on Fallen Paladin just to get this over with.

[eggynack]

I should have specified: I agree with Lans.

Evil Druid is the Premise of the thread. If we go out of our way to change the premise (spoken and tacit, such as no Pun-Pun) to fit optimization options, I'd vote +1 on Fallen Paladin just to get this over with.
I don't particularly see the issue with altering the premise in this fashion. We're presumably attempting to test the best versions of these classes, after all.

Edit: Also, going non-evil will let us screw around with animate with the spirit and benign projection. That just seems like a barrel of laughs in these circumstances.

[ben-zayb]

I don't particularly see the issue with altering the premise in this fashion. We're presumably attempting to test the best versions of these classes, after all.

Edit: Also, going non-evil will let us screw around with animate with the spirit and benign projection. That just seems like a barrel of laughs in these circumstances.I... sort of don't get that. On one hand, I agree about testing many versions of the classes. But that's another thread topic.

On the other hand, allowing that means the thread is already resolved with Team Redshirt winning at all levels. And Pun-Pun isn't a specific build for evil boss of the week, so there's that. Is it a cheap win? Yes. Does it answer the thread? Technically.

[eggynack]

I... sort of don't get that. On one hand, I agree about testing many versions of the classes. But that's another thread topic.

On the other hand, allowing that means the thread is already resolved with Team Redshirt winning at all levels. And Pun-Pun isn't a specific build for evil boss of the week, so there's that. Is it a cheap win? Yes. Does it answer the thread? Technically.
We don't really have to break all premises in existence. It's not like the challenge will spontaneously combust if the druid suddenly gets access to a few more things. This is just a standard usage of practical optimization that I would consider in pretty much any campaign, even if I don't ultimately act on it, especially with druids.

[Angelalex242]

My final point on the matter.

If the Druid is NG, the fight goes like this.

Pal:I attack the druid! Rolled a 15 on the die, do I hit?
DM:Yes, you do. But he was an NG druid, so your powers are forfeit, and you're now a fighter with no feats. And all for 7 points of damage.
Druid:Best 7 points of damage I ever took. One down, 5 to go.

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't think this is the thing at issue. My argument is that the druid isn't evil, or isn't necessarily evil, primarily because I seek the marginally higher capacity for optimization made available by being non-evil. In particular, good druids get the benefit of exalted feats and the ability to self-target luminous armor, neutral druids can cast spells ranging from vile to sanctified, and evil druids get next to nothing.

An Exalted Druid would never resort to violence against this party which, because it includes a Paladin, must be non evil.

Neutral Good no.
Lawful or Chaotic Neutral maybe.
Neutral Evil probably.

[eggynack]

An Exalted Druid would never resort to violence against this party which, because it includes a Paladin, must be non evil.

Neutral Good no.
Lawful or Chaotic Neutral maybe.
Neutral Evil probably.
Neutral on the good/evil axis is reasonable enough, and it offers enough benefits so as to be reasonably optimal. You do still get non-luminous armor sanctified spells, after all, along with either all corrupt spells, or nearly all corrupt spells (I've yet to check whether there is some restriction as the one on luminous armor). The fact that this druid is apparently running aberration wild shape also eliminates most of the build benefits of good, so it all works out alright.

Edit: Also, incidentally, what should we use for race? My initial suspicion, if we're going all in on the ethereal attack plan, is that shifter would be the best option. You presumably can't use the ethereal travel ability with an animal companion in tow, so he would usually be a bit of a target, and we should seek the best trade possible as a result. Of course, if we're just using this as one plan of many, the animal companion might become more of an option.

[ben-zayb]

We don't really have to break all premises in existence. It's not like the challenge will spontaneously combust if the druid suddenly gets access to a few more things. This is just a standard usage of practical optimization that I would consider in pretty much any campaign, even if I don't ultimately act on it, especially with druids.Oh yes, but because it already did. It's no surprise that 3.5 is broken, and the Spells system in general (or Druid spellcasting in this instance) is why we have to pit as much as 6 redshirts just to stand a change against the druid of the same level. It's the same reason why at 17th level, the lines go blurry with the Healer getting Gate. It's easy to make other stuff irrelevant with just a few select options.

If the Druid goes as far as changing the premises simply for optimization, I don't see what's wrong with doing the same for the other 6, for the purpose of this Vs.-like thread. The only technical difference in opening such a floodgate is that the returns of investment is lesser for a druid than it is for a paladin at certain levels.

[Incanur]

Evil is almost always the best optimization option when you get beyond the mechanics alone, simply because it lets the character do whatever it takes to win. Additionally, the BoVD sacrifice rules constitute a solid boost if you've got the down time.

An high-opt party of fighter, monk, paladin, ninja, healer, and expert have tons of tricks to pull, but then the druid's probably got Aberration Wild Shape shenanigans going on. (I'm assuming not prestige classes, because otherwise the planar shepherd eventually gives the druid ten turns to the party's six.)

It comes down to the player and build more than anything, as other have said, but I tend to think the party has the advantage at the lower levels while the druid gets it starting around level 9. That's assuming it's in part a prep war.

[eggynack]

Oh yes, but because it already did. It's no surprise that 3.5 is broken, and the Spells system in general (or Druid spellcasting in this instance) is why we have to pit as much as 6 redshirts just to stand a change against the druid of the same level. It's the same reason why at 17th level, the lines go blurry with the Healer getting Gate. It's easy to make other stuff irrelevant with just a few select options.

If the Druid goes as far as changing the premises simply for optimization, I don't see what's wrong with doing the same for the other 6, for the purpose of this Vs.-like thread. The only technical difference in opening such a floodgate is that the returns of investment is lesser for a druid than it is for a paladin at certain levels.
The technical difference is that my shift is practical optimization, while yours is very much theoretical. As long as your character don't move from the one to the other, I've gotta figure that things will be reasonably fine. It helps that the thing about the druid being evil was always something of a minor premise, and that the OP accepted the possibility of a CN druid.

[ben-zayb]

The technical difference is that my shift is practical optimization, while yours is very much theoretical. As long as your character don't move from the one to the other, I've gotta figure that things will be reasonably fine. It helps that the thing about the druid being evil was always something of a minor premise, and that the OP accepted the possibility of a CN druid.But one's TO is just another one's PO, isn't it? In my experience, I'm yet to see a thread explaining where one ends and the other begins (of course, kindly point me such thread if something already exists).:smallconfused:

EDIT: I'm aware of the 10 commandments, by the way, with #9 being "Respect the parameters of the request." Note that Pun-Pun doesn't technically break this thread, while your non-evil druid will. Of course, unless we tacitly agree that "No Pun-Pun" is part of the parameter.

I'm yet to see the OP commenting on a differently-aligned Druid, but I won't call that a minor premise, since it's actually 1 of only 3 of those.

...and talk about the Evil Druid who is blighting the lands. For the good of the community, they must defeat him!

Assuming equal level, 1v6... at what levels does the fight go unstoppably one way or the other?Premises:
1. Team Redshirt just met in a bar
2. Evil Druid blighting the land exists
3. Assume equal level

[eggynack]

But one's TO is just another one's PO, isn't it? In my experience, I'm yet to see a thread explaining where one ends and the other begins (of course, kindly point me such thread if something already exists).:smallconfused:
Yes, but I can say with reasonable certainty that choosing an alignment falls on the PO side, while pun-pun falls on the TO side. Everyone picks an alignment, after all, even if they don't do so in a manner that's motivated by build stuff.


EDIT: I'm aware of the 10 commandments, by the way, with #9 being "Respect the parameters of the request." Note that Pun-Pun doesn't technically break this thread, while your non-evil druid will. Of course, unless we tacitly agree that "No Pun-Pun" is part of the parameter.
I'm mostly questioning the necessity of the parameter, as I'm aware that it currently exists. In other words, I put the following question to you: should the challenge be alignment restricted? My assertion is that it shouldn't, or it should't be as restricted as it currently is.


I'm yet to see the OP commenting on a differently-aligned Druid
To quote the OP,

Given the problems the druid is causing the surrounding lands, and Druid's alignment requirements, Say it's either Neutral Evil or Chaotic Neutral.


but I won't call that a minor premise, since it's actually 1 of only 3 of those.

Premises:
1. Team Redshirt just met in a bar
2. Evil Druid blighting the land exists
3. Assume equal level
As for this part, I consider it a minor premise because I view it as extraneous to the argument. The argument, as I perceive it, is not, "When can these tier 5 characters prevail against a druid that is specifically evil?" but, "When can these tier 5 characters prevail against a druid?" The former may have been the the actual text, but it's an argument that I think tells us less about the situation.

[Rakaydos]

Evil is almost always the best optimization option when you get beyond the mechanics alone, simply because it lets the character do whatever it takes to win. Additionally, the BoVD sacrifice rules constitute a solid boost if you've got the down time.

This seems promicing... so does this mean the druid can slaughter half the woodland creatures to enslave the other half as awakened mindlinked puppets, before the party goes after him?

[ben-zayb]

I'm mostly questioning the necessity of the parameter, as I'm aware that it currently exists. In other words, I put the following question to you: should the challenge be alignment restricted? My assertion is that it shouldn't, or it should't be as restricted as it currently is.

To quote the OPI would say that I agree that it ought not to, but thought the thread explicitly specified that it is, and my inclination (and reason) is we should hold with (or respect) what was already given as premise, minor or not. Of course, seeing that quote, alignment really doesn't seem to be a deterrent for the OP, so just ignore what I previously said and carry on with the actual scenario discussions.:smallbiggrin:

[Incanur]

This seems promicing... so does this mean the druid can slaughter half the woodland creatures to enslave the other half as awakened mindlinked puppets, before the party goes after him?

Something along those lines, anyway. As I learned over the course of an evil campaign, BoVD sacrifice rules constitute a notable power boost assuming downtime. If the druid operates as a proper BBEG, one plausible scenario is that the party attacks em and ey withdraws. (Druids are pretty good at escaping.) Then the hunters become the hunted. The druid's lack of knowledge (religion) makes sacrificing less lucrative, but a single feat fixes that problem. You only need to make a DC 25 check to get 20th-caster-level divine power for 24 hours! And it gets worse (for the party) from there. Basically the druid buffs and then ambushes the party, or sends buffed minions after them.

[eggynack]

I would say that I agree that it ought not to, but thought the thread explicitly specified that it is, and my inclination (and reason) is we should hold with (or respect) what was already given as premise, minor or not. Of course, seeing that quote, alignment really doesn't seem to be a deterrent for the OP, so just ignore what I previously said and carry on with the actual scenario discussions.:smallbiggrin:
Very nifty. In that case, it's time to do the traditional non-evil thing, and see what kinds of powerful corpses our druid can find and reanimate. Life is weird, sometimes. Incidentally, I wonder how much our dharculus-druid can shift things across from the material to the ethereal and back. In particular, the goal here is to sneak our maws into the material, snatch up a corpse, shift it back to the ethereal, spend ten minutes casting animate with the spirit, and toss our outsider-zombie at the adventuring party. It certainly sounds amusing, if not necessarily viable.

[Angelalex242]

It is still the case, however, that the party has the best chance against an evil druid. One can be sure, after all, that during such a battle, the Paladin will burn every smite evil he's got if the druid is appropriately aligned in his attempts to kill him. Things like Bless Weapon also help with the confirming of crits.

[eggynack]

It is still the case, however, that the party has the best chance against an evil druid. One can be sure, after all, that during such a battle, the Paladin will burn every smite evil he's got if the druid is appropriately aligned in his attempts to kill him. Things like Bless Weapon also help with the confirming of crits.
Honestly, that seems more like a problem with the paladin than a problem with differently aligning the druid. Not all conflicts are necessarily going to put you up against the type of foe that your build is optimized against, which is why it's best to not optimize against particular foes unless you have some assurance that you'll be fighting those foes. I mean, were this a druid versus cleric argument, I could make the same argument you're making right now, except the druid would be forced to be a necropolitan, such that the cleric's anti-undead stuff would work.

[Rakaydos]

So, what I'm, getting from this thread, is that given equal op and equal levels, this is actually a pretty close fight at most levels? That if I wanted to run this, say, as a convention game with pregen characters, the PCs would have just enough advantage to turn the tables?

[eggynack]

So, what I'm, getting from this thread, is that given equal op and equal levels, this is actually a pretty close fight at most levels? That if I wanted to run this, say, as a convention game with pregen characters, the PCs would have just enough advantage to turn the tables?
I'm not really sure. I mean, the current analysis, at level 9, seems heavily favored for the druid, and the previous wind wall focused analysis, at level 6, also seemed at least somewhat druid favorable. We'd probably have to actually run the latter, however. At level one, there's a pretty good chance that the party just explodes the druid into non-existence before he even gets to act, but if there's some way we could prevent that from happening, possibly with as simple a method as the druid taking cover, maybe behind the animal companion, something as simple as a greenbound summoning created wall of thorns would probably decide the match in the druid's favor also.

At levels two through five, things the chance of an instant kill reduce some, and the powers of greenbound summoning really only increase (especially with a chronocharm of the uncaring archmage), so if we can get the first level fight to favor the druid, those levels would likely fall into place with little effort. Similarly, I think that the level 6 plan will hold up through to level 8, and that the level 9 plan will hold up long enough that the druid will have a newer and better plan by the time the aberration plan can be overcome. Thus, I would place these fights as somewhat druid favorable, though perhaps not by much at most levels, and perhaps weighted towards the party at certain ranges.

[Angelalex242]

Doesn't follow. Necropolitan Druid isn't found in the core rulebook.

Neutral Evil Druid IS found in the core rulebooks.

But yes, the Paladin is specialized such that he's only useful against evil foes. Against everything else, he's actually tier 6. The problem is that smite isn't powerful enough that he's Tier 4 against evil. And he really should be. He should be dominating evil rangers and barbarians and rogues and monks and fighters in his sleep. But...he's not even doing that right.

[eggynack]

Doesn't follow. Necropolitan Druid isn't found in the core rulebook.

Neutral Evil Druid IS found in the core rulebooks.
Don't really see what this has to do with anything. I mean, if you'd like, I can revise it such that it's a ranger with a particular favored enemy against someone who can choose to be that favored enemy or not.


But yes, the Paladin is specialized such that he's only useful against evil foes. Against everything else, he's actually tier 6. The problem is that smite isn't powerful enough that he's Tier 4 against evil. And he really should be. He should be dominating evil rangers and barbarians and rogues and monks and fighters in his sleep. But...he's not even doing that right.
I'm somewhat doubtful of the tier shift. Smite evil seems like a pretty minor ability, with stuff like casting, the mount, and other not-smite stuff being bigger tier factors. At the same time, really, it doesn't matter. You keep arguing this thing, that swapping the druid's alignment makes the paladin worse, but I'm failing to see why that's a thing I should care about. It's bad for the paladin, but y'know, huzzah for druidry. If it helps, if this argument hits higher levels, I won't demand that the party be made of characters without neutral in their alignment, such that word of balance works on them, and neither will I demand that they be nongood such that leonal's roar works on them. I'm just nice like that.

[TuggyNE]

Doesn't follow. Necropolitan Druid isn't found in the core rulebook.

Neutral Evil Druid IS found in the core rulebooks.

Where did Core-only come into this? :smallconfused:

[Curmudgeon]

Where did Core-only come into this? :smallconfused:
It couldn't, actually; Ninja and Healer aren't core classes, so the question presupposes non-core content.

[Vogonjeltz]

Is the expert a DMNpc minion then? (Since experts aren't player classes)

Lastly can we safely assume the Druid is going to be evil, otherwise where does the conflict come from? (Read as: it's easier to explain why this Druid needs a killin)

[eggynack]

Is the expert a DMNpc minion then? (Since experts aren't player classes)
NPC classes weren't designed for players, and the game seems to think that all of them (except the aristocrat and the expert, conveniently) fail to hold up as player classes, but I don't think there's anything explicitly stopping a player from taking on one of those classes. It's somewhat irrelevant though, as the party with the expert as a minion and the party with the expert as a PC would presumably play identically.

Lastly can we safely assume the Druid is going to be evil, otherwise where does the conflict come from? (Read as: it's easier to explain why this Druid needs a killin).
As has been heavily discussed, it really isn't safe to assume that. Good characters can come in conflict with each other, and there's always the oft ignored lawful versus chaotic conflict. Really, any time there's a work with both gray and gray morality and conflict, there's your conflict. I've been thinking something like Princess Mononoke, cause that fits this type of adventure in a lot of ways. In any case, I think we've generally settled on chaotic neutral, as it's a reasonable compromise between optimization and conflict causing. Evil is just a really mediocre alignment for druids.

[Lans]

You guys could just run 2 scenarios

[eggynack]

You guys could just run 2 scenarios
Doesn't seem like the best idea on this basis, especially as we're not even really running one scenario now, and double-especially as 2 scenarios really means double some mass of scenarios, as this is presumably taking place across a number of levels.

[Lans]

Doesn't seem like the best idea on this basis, especially as we're not even really running one scenario now, and double-especially as 2 scenarios really means double some mass of scenarios, as this is presumably taking place across a number of levels.


How about you run the CN one and make conjecture on how things would of played out if he was NE?

[eggynack]

How about you run the CN one and make conjecture on how things would of played out if he was NE?
They're pretty similar apart from spell list, especially as there's not much in the way of build in that alignment shift. So, it'd probably play out the same way, except the CN druid would be able to toss out movanic deva empowered corpses from the ethereal plane, cast crappy project image, get some year long allies, and a couple other reasonable things. There might be call to add a bone ring to the item list, depending on level, such that the ability draining spells won't do that. It's pretty much a straight improvement to capabilities, which is part of why I find going evil somewhat problematic.

[Lans]

They're pretty similar apart from spell list, especially as there's not much in the way of build in that alignment shift. So, it'd probably play out the same way, except the CN druid would be able to toss out movanic deva empowered corpses from the ethereal plane, cast crappy project image, get some year long allies, and a couple other reasonable things. There might be call to add a bone ring to the item list, depending on level, such that the ability draining spells won't do that. It's pretty much a straight improvement to capabilities, which is part of why I find going evil somewhat problematic.

I figured NE was a bone to the paladin and healer, between 2 at will detect evils, smite evil, and sanctified spells

[eggynack]

I figured NE was a bone to the paladin and healer, between 2 at will detect evils, smite evil, and sanctified spells
That's also a factor, I suppose. I think that list covers most of it, though neutral druid also gets unicorn summoning, which is sweet.

[Vogonjeltz]

NPC classes weren't designed for players, and the game seems to think that all of them (except the aristocrat and the expert, conveniently) fail to hold up as player classes, but I don't think there's anything explicitly stopping a player from taking on one of those classes. It's somewhat irrelevant though, as the party with the expert as a minion and the party with the expert as a PC would presumably play identically.

As has been heavily discussed, it really isn't safe to assume that. Good characters can come in conflict with each other, and there's always the oft ignored lawful versus chaotic conflict. Really, any time there's a work with both gray and gray morality and conflict, there's your conflict. I've been thinking something like Princess Mononoke, cause that fits this type of adventure in a lot of ways. In any case, I think we've generally settled on chaotic neutral, as it's a reasonable compromise between optimization and conflict causing. Evil is just a really mediocre alignment for druids.

I don't see a way for neutral good Druid and lawful good paladin to actually come to blows. Both would resort to diplomacy first, and once they are talking neither can attack the other first without it being an evil act. So that rules out the paladin doing anything first, if you'd care to make the case for what would provoke a NG character to violence against strangers, I'd be interested to hear the theory.

The example of good fighting good is the hypothetical variant of good is relative from book of exalted deeds, good however isn't relative in standard d&d.

So what level are we proposing? 6th? 10th? 15th? Or 20th?

[Rakaydos]

I don't see a way for neutral good Druid and lawful good paladin to actually come to blows. Both would resort to diplomacy first, and once they are talking neither can attack the other first without it being an evil act. So that rules out the paladin doing anything first, if you'd care to make the case for what would provoke a NG character to violence against strangers, I'd be interested to hear the theory.

The example of good fighting good is the hypothetical variant of good is relative from book of exalted deeds, good however isn't relative in standard d&d.

So what level are we proposing? 6th? 10th? 15th? Or 20th?

It sounds like 9th level LG party vs 9th level CN Druid on it's home territory. But other levels would work too.

[eggynack]

I don't see a way for neutral good Druid and lawful good paladin to actually come to blows. Both would resort to diplomacy first, and once they are talking neither can attack the other first without it being an evil act. So that rules out the paladin doing anything first, if you'd care to make the case for what would provoke a NG character to violence against strangers, I'd be interested to hear the theory.

The example of good fighting good is the hypothetical variant of good is relative from book of exalted deeds, good however isn't relative in standard d&d.
That's not really an issue, as I think we're going with the chaotic neutral druid, rather than the neutral good druid. They're both perfectly viable paths for a druid to take, and the chaotic neutral version might actually be better given that the build is somewhat locked in with non-exalted feats. I think there are probably realistic scenarios for the good v. good thing, especially if the paladin is taking orders from some governing body, but it's not really significantly worth discussing.


So what level are we proposing? 6th? 10th? 15th? Or 20th?
I'm really not all that sure. 20 is probably pointless, as it just becomes an odd competition between shapechange and gate for which is the more broken spell. I'd tend towards shapechange, especially due to its costless nature, but we're not really talking about a six against one match at that point. As for 6 and 10, I think we have decent druid builds for those, and I'm still not entirely sure how the team is bypassing the dualplanar thing. 15 is a somewhat undiscussed level, though I'd suspect a druid victory absent really significant shenanigans. Also, for the 10th level thing, doing the actual combat with various minions from across the ethereal plane seems pretty hard to deal with, as the druid doesn't even need to be all that close when the minions get tossed out.

[Lans]

Be able to bind Malphus, and or going shape soulmeld->open crown chakra>mind sight are both options to swing scouting more into T5 favor

For the monk I would give it a shadow jaunt ability from martial study and take the sun school feat so he can teleport next to the druid and try stunning. Make it Martial and invisible fist so he can have weapon supremancy, and snap kick