Ironsoul Forgemaster Questions

[Red Fel]

I was recently remarking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344454-Best-Prc-for-a-Dwarf-Fighter&p=17370388&viewfull=1#post17370388) about the awesomeness that is Ironsoul Forgemaster. This got me to thinking about the class, which leads to several questions.

1. IF 2 gains Secrets of the Forge, which, among other things, allows your CL for purposes of crafting arms and armor to be triple your IF level. I have heard about some shenanigans that involve taking IF and Battlesmith in order to inordinately jack up your crafting CL. However, the relevant Battlesmith ability is also called Secrets of the Forge, and it's my understanding that two identical abilities from separate classes, unless explicitly stated to stack, do not stack. Do they in this case?

2. At levels 1, 5 and 9 of the class, IF gains the ability to invest essentia in shields, armor, and weapons that he has crafted, respectively. Would this stack with the Soulbound enhancement found in the same book? For example, IF 1 gets you energy resistance 5 per essentia invested in a shield; Soulbound shield gets you +1 AC per essentia invested. If you invest 1 essentia in the shield, do you get energy resistance 5 and the AC bonus?

3. Why don't we have an Ironsoul Forgemaster handbook? For real, you guys.

4. Incarnum Focus items require Craft Wondrous Items rather than Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Obviously, an IF would have to take this feat separately in order to craft them. Assuming an IF took CWI, would Secrets of the Forge also apply to those items? (My inclination is no, due to the language of the ability, but I'd like a second opinion.) Does an IF even need the CL bonus from Secrets of the Forge to craft Incarnum Focus items? (It's not like they require spells to make, or anything.) And as an aside, do you think the ability to craft Incarnum Focus items is of particular value to an IF?

5. Seriously, guys, where's that handbook?

[Windstorm]

Still laughing at that linked post a day later.

for #1, I would think that they do not stack, as they have the same name, similar wording, and an identical effect. ultimately the raw is unclear so that's probably case-by-case for DMs.

#2: I would think that you would get both, since investing essentia is as written not an activation of an ability (like spending turning attempts on a divine wrath weapon) but giving the item an additional property of having x essentia invested, which then acts as a trigger for conditional effects. the fact that both effects have different sources with no mutual exclusion in the rules text seems to support this.

4A: secrets of the forge wouldn't apply for CWI, as the effective CL is explicitly called out as only for the purposes of magic arms and armor, not for any other use. However as a DM I'd be inclined to bend that a little since item creation is already so seldom seen, its a shame to punish stuff you'd like to see more of.
4B: the ironsoul forgemaster would not be able to craft the incarnum focus items, as they are not classed as armor (but wondrous items), and 4a above then applies making you unable to meet the CL6 requirement. As with 4A I'd likely bend this as a DM because it makes sense for an ironsoul forgemaster to be one of the primary sources of incarnum focused items, instead of a soulcaster with a bunch of creation feats.....

3&5: you could make one, considering you seem to have a really good handle on the class :smallwink:

[Ellowryn]

One thing of note: you gain the feat CWI as a bonus feat with IF, the problem is that without levels in a class that gives caster level you have an effective CL of 0.

The biggest problem i see with the class is that while it does have some cool abilities, it it still dragged down by the horrible essentia capacity progression. If your DM is willing to fix it, then yes this class becomes much better.

I also second you putting together a handbook if you want one, and im sure there are people out here on the playground that would be willing to help.

[WinWin]

Duergar (non psionic) have a racial caster level equal to twice their HD. So a Duergar Incarnate 5/IF 2 would have an effective caster level of 20 for the purpose of creating items. Not bad, if you're into that kind of thing.

[Red Fel]

Still laughing at that linked post a day later.

Glad you like. I'm pleased to aim.

Seriously, I'm pretty sure you could come up with one of those for just about any class. Fun little exercise, great way to summarize high points.


for #1, I would think that they do not stack, as they have the same name, similar wording, and an identical effect. ultimately the raw is unclear so that's probably case-by-case for DMs.

That's what I figured, yeah.


#2: I would think that you would get both, since investing essentia is as written not an activation of an ability (like spending turning attempts on a divine wrath weapon) but giving the item an additional property of having x essentia invested, which then acts as a trigger for conditional effects. the fact that both effects have different sources with no mutual exclusion in the rules text seems to support this.

That makes sense. I mean, it's not a case of "invest essentia in this particular function of the shield," it's just "as long as you have at least 1 essentia invested in the shield," so I figure it works for both. Wanted to be sure, though.


4A: secrets of the forge wouldn't apply for CWI, as the effective CL is explicitly called out as only for the purposes of magic arms and armor, not for any other use. However as a DM I'd be inclined to bend that a little since item creation is already so seldom seen, its a shame to punish stuff you'd like to see more of.

That's what I figured, yeah. SotF explicitly says for crafting arms and armor, so I figure that if anything, it would have to be with DM permission.


4B: the ironsoul forgemaster would not be able to craft the incarnum focus items, as they are not classed as armor (but wondrous items), and 4a above then applies making you unable to meet the CL6 requirement. As with 4A I'd likely bend this as a DM because it makes sense for an ironsoul forgemaster to be one of the primary sources of incarnum focused items, instead of a soulcaster with a bunch of creation feats.....

Ahh, see, that's the part I forgot. You're right; Incarnum Focus items require a CL 6, and the IF, by RAW, lacks a CL for wondrous items, even if he takes CWI as a separate feat.

Funny thing; I did a quick check, and I could only find two classes that get CWI as a bonus feat - Dread Necromancer 19, in preparation for his phylactery, and Artificer 3, because Artificer. Funny, that. Basically, it renders wondrous items the exclusive purview of caster-crafters (and Artificers).

However, the Artificer class doesn't seem to say what his CL is for purposes of CWI. Now, it says his CL for making magic items - that's his Artificer level +2, or his actual level if the item duplicates a spell. I'm not clear whether that extends to CWI or not. If it does, he would need to take Artificer 4 in order to craft Incarnum Focus items, since they require CL 6. If not... Well, then, I haven't the slightest idea how to calculate CL for any CWI-crafter other than an actual caster. Does an Artificer even have a CL on his own? He uses infusions...


3&5: you could make one, considering you seem to have a really good handle on the class :smallwink:

Ha! As Descartes famously said before vanishing in a puff of logic, "I think not." What I make up for in enthusiasm, I lack in talent.


One thing of note: you gain the feat CWI as a bonus feat with IF, the problem is that without levels in a class that gives caster level you have an effective CL of 0.

I didn't see CWI on the class description. I only saw Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Was there an errata?


The biggest problem i see with the class is that while it does have some cool abilities, it it still dragged down by the horrible essentia capacity progression. If your DM is willing to fix it, then yes this class becomes much better.

Yeah, I think essentia capacity is a problem throughout the system. It's very much a prioritization issue - despite having awesome (and diverse!) inflatable abilities, you only have so much fuel for the fire, and generally have to invest it for the day.


I also second you putting together a handbook if you want one, and im sure there are people out here on the playground that would be willing to help.

The ones who are willing to help likely know the system better than I do. But if they want my help, they know where to find me! :smallbiggrin:

[Windstorm]

Duergar (non psionic) have a racial caster level equal to twice their HD. So a Duergar Incarnate 5/IF 2 would have an effective caster level of 20 for the purpose of creating items. Not bad, if you're into that kind of thing.

duergar only have spell-like abilites, and the caster level mentioned is for the purpose of determining DC and effects of those SLAs only.

[Ellowryn]

Oops, my bad, yeah its just Craft Magic Arms and Armor, i need to stop glancing at abilities and actually read them. :smallbiggrin:

Assuming you go Incarnate 10/IF 10, and all applicable feats, your max essentia capacity is only 6 an level 18+. So that's 30 resistance to most elements, which isn't all that bad, DR 6/- which is crap, and DC 16 + Con mod for the Weapon bond, also pretty low unless you min-max Con. From what limited knowledge i have of this forum that seems to be the #1 issue anybody has with that system.

And to quote a rather okay movie, "If you build it, they will come". Worst that will happen is you get 3/4 of the way done with a guide and someone else will come along and make a better one, but either way it will get a guide made!

[WinWin]

duergar only have spell-like abilites, and the caster level mentioned is for the purpose of determining DC and effects of those SLAs only.

Secrets of the Forge explicitly stacks with other caster levels.

SLA's can be used in item creation.

So far as I am aware, there is no rule preventing a creature with an effective caster level, using that effective caster level to qualify for item creation feats. Without a diverse spell access, the items they can create on their own will be limited, but they can still take the feat. See 'Warlock' for more information.

[Jeff the Green]

Also note that, as far as I know, there aren't any items that require a CL to create. The CL listed is the CL of the item; note how it's separated from the rest of the prerequisites with a semicolon, not a comma. You'll still need the CL to get crafting feats, but no higher.

[WinWin]

Without access to an actual spellcaster or other source of spells, you're limited (in Core) to placing enhancement bonuses on items. Even the Spellstoring Weapon enchancement has the prerequisite that you be a 12th level spellcaster (as opposed to merely having a CL of 12). I believe that once you can achieve a CL of 15, intelligent items become available for crafting, which may be able to meet certain spell prerequisites, though it is an expensive way to go about it.

[Red Fel]

Also note that, as far as I know, there aren't any items that require a CL to create. The CL listed is the CL of the item; note how it's separated from the rest of the prerequisites with a semicolon, not a comma. You'll still need the CL to get crafting feats, but no higher.

Ahh, see, now there's a thing. Yeah, I wasn't sure, since I've never actually had to figure out how to craft items, exactly what the mechanics were, but from what I read in the book, the requirements to craft an Incarnum Focus item are the Split Chakra feat and an essentia pool, not spells or CL.


Without access to an actual spellcaster or other source of spells, you're limited (in Core) to placing enhancement bonuses on items. Even the Spellstoring Weapon enchancement has the prerequisite that you be a 12th level spellcaster (as opposed to merely having a CL of 12). I believe that once you can achieve a CL of 15, intelligent items become available for crafting, which may be able to meet certain spell prerequisites, though it is an expensive way to go about it.

Also good to know. Now, with regard to Incarnum Focus items, that's no big deal; I don't know what a "+1 Necklace" would do, for example. But with regard to arms and armor, that's admittedly a larger problem.

Now, in theory, the fluff of the class suggests that Dwarven spellcasters, particularly Clerics, love IFs so gosh-darned much that they'll pretty much slap spells on anything you put in front of them. But I don't recall if enhancements have to be placed on gear during crafting, or whether they can be added on later. On the other hand, Soulbound armor requires Magic Vestment, and Soulbound weapons require Magic Weapon; both are Cleric spells. Five levels of Cleric gets you the spells you need. That said, it seems it'd just be easier to hire a spellcaster to help you in the crafting.

[Windstorm]

Also note that, as far as I know, there aren't any items that require a CL to create. The CL listed is the CL of the item; note how it's separated from the rest of the prerequisites with a semicolon, not a comma. You'll still need the CL to get crafting feats, but no higher.

DMG page 282 where it has the base rules for item creation state that the caster level is one of the primary requirements for creating a magic item, and any specific spells and materials are in addition to that requirement. right at the beginning of the first section. It is also one of the fundamental tools used by the original designers to balance access to magic items of varying power throughout the levels.

like all wondrous items, incarnum focus items have a CL requirement listed as part of the item creation costs bracket, and are subject to all the same rules for caster level requirements, just like arms and armor are as well (however ISFM gets a special feature exemption to not meeting the requirements for arms and armor)

additionally, if you read the text for spell like abilities for the 3.5 races, all of them say that "treat the caster level as (HD, X value, etc) for the purposes of determining save DCs and variable effects." the last line excludes that CL use for any other reason than determining the values of those spell like abilities.

[Jeff the Green]

DMG page 282 where it has the base rules for item creation state that the caster level is one of the primary requirements for creating a magic item, and any specific spells and materials are in addition to that requirement. right at the beginning of the first section. It is also one of the fundamental tools used by the original designers to balance access to magic items of varying power throughout the levels.

:smallconfused: That's not even remotely true. Here's what it actually says (also replicated here in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)):

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

It references caster level only when talking about pricing, and that only applies to cost of items that duplicate spell effects.

Compare that to the section Magic Item Basics > Magic Item Descriptions. Here it says that each item has listed, "in notational form," aura, caster level, prerequisites, market price, cost to create, and weight. It specifies that caster level is the "caster level of the item, indicating its relative power." Now look at a wondrous item. At random, I picked Decanter of Endless Water. At the end of the entry it says
Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, control water; Price 9,000 gp; Weight 2 lb.

Note how CL is in an entirely separate section from Craft Wondrous Item and the spell and there's no other CL listed—which there needs to be, since the item has to have its own caster level.


additionally, if you read the text for spell like abilities for the 3.5 races, all of them say that "treat the caster level as (HD, X value, etc) for the purposes of determining save DCs and variable effects." the last line excludes that CL use for any other reason than determining the values of those spell like abilities. attempting to use that CL for crafting doesn't make any kind of sense except in the most legalistic, awful munchkin kind of logic and its those kind of things that are blatant twists on the rules that give optimizers bad reps at many tables; please don't do it.

That's also not true. I'm looking at the text for duergar right here:

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—enlarge person and invisibility as a wizard of twice the duergar’s class level (minimum caster level 3rd); these abilities affect only the duergar and whatever it carries.

The text for gnomes in the PHB is basically identical. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's specific rules saying you can use SLAs to craft items, though I'm not sure where they are. I also know for certain that you can use other items (e.g. scrolls, wands) to make more items.

Seriously, either you're making things up, misremembering a houserule as RAW, or have some pre-errata books I don't. I see absolutely nothing like what you've been saying in any book.

[Windstorm]

you are apparently correct on the caster level requirements. pre-errata DMG has a line about meeting caster level prereqs, in the post errata reprint my friend has, the line is completely omitted, despite no mention of a change in the errata document I have. quite strange.

on the subject of using SLAs to qualify for magic item creation, I'm still calling hogwash. it allows you to cast specific spells AS a wizard of x level, not "do anything and everything as if a wizard of X level" its a specific clarifying clause meant for the sole purpose of defining an otherwise hanging variable in the spells. you might be able to create a wondrous item that requires those spells, but I'd be surprised if ANY DM let you get away with making magic arms and armor that way.

I know I got upset, but personal attacks aren't something either of us should engage in in a debate, edited my post accordingly.

[Jeff the Green]

I wasn't insulting you (or at least didn't intend to); those were just the only reasons I could think of for you saying what you did. (Granted, I wrongly thought the second was more likely than the correct third one.)

Anyway, I found the rules allowing the use of SLAs to craft items. It's in Complete Arcane.

In the context of a feat or a prestige class requirement, a caster level prerequisite (such as "caster level 5th") measures the character’s ability to channel a minimum amount of magical power. For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster level, creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations instead of spells use either their fixed caster level or their class level to determine qualification. For example, Craft Wondrous Item has a requirement of caster level 3rd, so both a 3rd-level warlock and a nixie (caster level 4th for its charm person spell-like ability) meet the requirement.

...

A requirement based on a specific spell measures whether the character or creature in question is capable of producing the necessary effect, and as such, invocations and spell-like abilities that generate the relevant effect meet the requirements for specific spell knowledge. For example, a prestige class with a spellcasting requirement of "Must know (or be able to cast) darkness" is met by a warlock who chooses darkness as one of her invocations, or by any creature with darkness as a spell-like ability.

Although it doesn't explicitly say you can use SLAs for crafting, crafting does fall under the "requirements for specific spell knowledge" category.

Also, I have had DMs that allow SLAs to count for crafting, and would myself when I DM (it hasn't come up in my games).

[Windstorm]

its been ages since I read that section of complete arcane..... I can only describe this as "horribly wonderful" for various reasons. mostly the potential things you could do knowing that section is written as it is.

its this kind of thing that aggravates me about 3.5. stuff like magic item creation is so complex you could read most of the splatbooks and still easily miss, misread, or misinterpret things.

so it seems that you can infact make pretty much anything with an appropriate race ironsoul forgemaster with a soulcaster cohort. guess we figured out who runs the magic marts of the world.

[Jeff the Green]

Eh, Artificer's still better. They'll need the occasional assist from particular races, people who can turn/rebuke undead, etc., but they're still leagues ahead of an ISFM