Will Miko join the Linear Guild? "Dun dun dun"

[sethdarkwater]

Is it possible that if she (miko) meets nale in prison, being in her state of mind she will conspire with him to take revenge on the oots. All the while Nale believes he controls her, and natraully she believes she contols him? Yeah I really have no idea waht Im talkin about, or do I?

[Sage in the Playground]

Well, she does take disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights.

[Estelindis]

I think it's unlikely, just because it's what a lot of people expect to happen. However, a wild card is the presence of Belkar. He hates the Linear Guild... ...but he also hates Miko. Would he want to drive Azure City's #1 fallen paladin into the arms of his other enemies or not? Which would give him the most kicks?

[Awesome Girl]

I really doubt it.

[Querzis]

I dont want it to happen, since I like the Linear Guild but hate Miko, but I know its gonna happen. She is a way to good opposite for Belkar, not only because of their personnalities but also because Belkar want to do evil things but keep doing good things since he joined the OOTS while Miko want to do good things but keep doing evil things since she meet the OOTS.

And, like Sage said, she take disproportionate revenge over quasi-imaginated slights. She has everything you need to join the Linear Guild. Beside, the main goal of both the Linear Guild and Miko is revenge against the OOTS.

[Sisqui]

Well, she does take disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights.

You took the words right out of my mouth :smalltongue:

I think Nale is shrewd enough to see her injured and insulted pride and manipulative enough to trick her into joining. And Miko is, of course, oblivious enough to reality that she (who believed the OOTSers were tricking her) will believe the LG is helping her

[Rabiesbunny]

Ftt, Miko's way too zealous to turn to join with the evil people. She did an evil act, and is fallen, but that doesn't mean she's evil herself.

Ooh, that was SUCH a satisfying panel. x)

[Grod_The_Giant]

I really, really, hope not. I like Miko as a villain- she's got just the right balance of skill and insanity to be really scary. On the other hand, I don't paticularly like the LG- they're too 'goofy' and incompitant to be truely threatening.

[Finwe]

The Giant has constructed three antagonists for the OOTS: Xkyon's group, the LG, and Miko. He's not about to have them join forces when they can function perfectly well on their own.

[Sisqui]

The Giant has constructed three antagonists for the OOTS: Xkyon's group, the LG, and Miko. He's not about to have them join forces when they can function perfectly well on their own.

Ah, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.....for a little while........

[CardinalFang]

I have the feeling that the gate/the whole city will be destroyed (otherwise why would Xykon continue on to the next gate?), and thus Hinjo will have no reason to stay in the city. With no gate to defend, the Sapphire Guard's oath is essentially meaningless, so he'll join up with the OotS to check on the other gates. Hinjo's perfect opposite in the LG = Miko (Blackguard or just fallen, still the best opposite).

[Pax_Chi]

My two cents:

On the other hand, if Nale can convinced Elan, however briefly, that Haley might be evil, he could potentialyl convince Miko that he and his allies are all wrongfully imprisoned individuals as part of Roy's plot, given that they have fought Roy's group twice. He could even work it into being "The Will of the Gods" since the gods obviously wanted her to be captured and brought to the cell next to them so that they could join forces, escape and begin their true quest of stopping Roy's "evil scheme". Since she no longer has Detect Evil, she could easily fall for it.

Furthermore, joining their team would include having peaceful contact with an evil outsider, which could lead her to becoming a Blackguard, albiet, one who thinks she's still doing "good" and when she detects "evil" she's really detecting good and thus slaughters "evildoers" left and right, all while reading her allies as "good".

[drazz]

*sigh*

You are forgetting the other option for Miko.

Instead of joining the Linear Guild, she might end up with Team Evil (Xykon). Don't forget, it was Xykon and Redcloak that really helped force the big turn in her life during the tower scene. Yes, I know the paladins seem to have a bad history with Redcloak and his peoples, but they also have a history of not killing their leiges.

Anyway, that's been my thought since she first met Xykon.

[Jester42]

No way. Even though she is a bad guy she is not evil.
Even if she joined temperoraly they would have to hide the deamon.
Not that there is much of a linear guild left at this point in time.

[Pax_Chi]

*sigh*

You are forgetting the other option for Miko.

Instead of joining the Linear Guild, she might end up with Team Evil (Xykon). Don't forget, it was Xykon and Redcloak that really helped force the big turn in her life during the tower scene. Yes, I know the paladins seem to have a bad history with Redcloak and his peoples, but they also have a history of not killing their leiges.

Anyway, that's been my thought since she first met Xykon.

Except that she considers Xykon a "vile, unnatural abomination" and Redcloak a "souless nihlist who seeks to undo creation".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html

At least with Nale she has no preconcieved notions against them.

[EvilAndProud]

As per villain tradition I expect Nale to sweet talk her into it.

[Xartyve]

It'd be cool if it happened. But who knows. The Xykon theory probably won't happen (cause of their previous encounter). And Miko has heared only word f mouth of the Linear Guild (the OOTS's mouth for that matter http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html) so has higher chances of joining Nale and his group.

[Demented]

It doesn't seem all that hard to do.

:nale: Hello there, sexy. I never thought I'd see a Paladin in jail.

:miko: An EX-paladin. But I have committed no crime!

:nale: Oh, sure, that's what they all say. Why are you...

:miko: It was the Order of the Stick! They seek to destroy Azure City, but I am on to their plans! If only I could get out of this cell, I could...

:miko: Wait... You're the evil twin of that fool in the Order of the Stick! You are the Linear Guild. They told me you were the ones responsible for the crimes committed while I was tracking them down!

:nale: What? No! The Order of the Stick did it. They're just pinning the blame on us.

:miko: That... that does make sense. I have heard scarcely anything but lies come from their blasphemous mouths. It is no surprise that they would have lied about that.

:nale: Good, good. Well, since we're past all that false blame, how would you like to join the Linear Guild? We are all about exacting vengeance, er, just retribution on the Order of the Stick for the crimes for which they're responsible. I can tell that you would make an excellent addition to the team.

:miko: Ally with you? Never! I may not be able to detect evil and your intentions seem honorable, but it is plainly obvious that you are evil, as you are allied with that contemptible evil fiend in your cell. I will not lower myself to association with such pathetic examples of vice, even though I no longer have to worry about the loss of my paladin abilities.

:sabine: Contemptible?

:nale: Shush. No, no, no, she's not a fiend. She's a... ah... a new kind of fey. Honest. It's the truth, my word of honor. You can trust us. Besides, all that good and evil stuff is old hat.

:miko: Very well. But, how do you expect to escape? These cells are magically warded and I oversaw the replacement of the locks with superior designed versions myself.

:nale: Shh.

*prison guards walks by*

:nale: *dangles prison cell keys* A sleight of hand check.

:miko: After the Order of the Stick are subdued, I will expect you to turn yourself in for theft.

[mockingbyrd7]

My two cents:

On the other hand, if Nale can convinced Elan, however briefly, that Haley might be evil, he could potentialyl convince Miko that he and his allies are all wrongfully imprisoned individuals as part of Roy's plot, given that they have fought Roy's group twice. He could even work it into being "The Will of the Gods" since the gods obviously wanted her to be captured and brought to the cell next to them so that they could join forces, escape and begin their true quest of stopping Roy's "evil scheme". Since she no longer has Detect Evil, she could easily fall for it.

Furthermore, joining their team would include having peaceful contact with an evil outsider, which could lead her to becoming a Blackguard, albiet, one who thinks she's still doing "good" and when she detects "evil" she's really detecting good and thus slaughters "evildoers" left and right, all while reading her allies as "good".


Very interesting theory, liable to happen that way actually, except:

I highly doubt that she could become a Blackguard and get new skills and not realize she's using them. She knows she's fallen. I think.

This whole thing sounds like the beginning of an OotS joke:

So Belkar, Miko, and the Linear Guild are all stuck in jail together and Xykon's horde of hobgoblins is on the way, and Belkar says...

[Pax_Chi]

Very interesting theory, liable to happen that way actually, except:

I highly doubt that she could become a Blackguard and get new skills and not realize she's using them. She knows she's fallen. I think.

This whole thing sounds like the beginning of an OotS joke:

So Belkar, Miko, and the Linear Guild are all stuck in jail together and Xykon's horde of hobgoblins is on the way, and Belkar says...

Well:

It's not so much that she doesn't realize that she's using them, she would be fully aware that she has what feels like her old powers back, just a bit different. But remember this is Miko we're talking about here, the queen of rationalizing and conclusion jumping. She could easily justify that the gods temporarily took her powers away so that she could meet her new allies, only to give her "new" and "more powerful" abilities. This would certainly fit with her world view as she would have unique powers that fits her perception that she's special amongst the Paladins, it would justify her loss to those she feels are beneath her, and it would further indept her to the LG because they have shown her the "true" path her gods wished her to follow. She realizes that she has her powers back and that they're a little different, she could just rationalize it in the same way she rationalized killing her lord and attempting to kill Hinjo.

[The Extinguisher]

The Giant has constructed three antagonists for the OOTS: Xkyon's group, the LG, and Miko. He's not about to have them join forces when they can function perfectly well on their own.

Quoted for freaking truth.

They would work better (as antagonists, not as villians) seperate then together. They are two clearly different character styles.

And the enemy of my enemy is not my freind. Thats why battle royals exist.

[Miklus]

Miko may join for a little while, but then Nale and Miko's egos are going to collide like two giant meteors. Nale thinks he's a super-genius and Miko thinks she is chosen by the gods.

[Spiky]

Not a chance. But not for all the reasons above, necessarily. Although most of them would work, too.

She is a loner. That's all.

[Krytha]

Only if Nale can convince her they are good and wrongfully imprisoned. She would eat that with a spoon.

[Sisqui]

Of course the LG might get rid of her first. Although how Nale would get her in the leather.......:smalleek:

[VanBuren]

Out of curiosity, once peaceful contact has been made, does it have to be maintained?

I could potentially foresee Miko joining the LG long enough to make that contact and become a Blackguard under the rationale that she has to play along while she gets back on her feet, and then immediately turn on the LG once she's become one.

[Setra]

I'll go with "Maybe, but I doubt it"

In terms of voting, I went for the being with the similar soul to Alfador.

[Yzorth]

I voted no, but now that I think about it, the linear guild might return with Miko as a blackguard.

[Skydiving_Ninja]

No, because even though she's fallen, she still sees herself as the ultimate protector of good and destroyer of evil things. Thus, she will not join them.

[Elliot Kane]

She won't join if she realises they are evil, and is in fact more likely to end up killing them.

Nale is going to have a very hard time convincing Miko he's one of the good guys if Sabine is anywhere in sight or Thog starts talking. Miko is not the brightest person in the world and she's very unstable right now, but she's still dedicated to destroying evil.

I think Azure City will get at least partly over-run by Xykon's forces and they will all get to break out of jail, but I really can't see them teaming up.

[Faramir]

Well, if Nale convinces her that the LG is out to stop Xykon to save their own lives then she might assume that the gods temporarily removed her paladinhood so she could associate with such evil people in order to save the world. Then when she saves the world she can turn the LG in and the gods will reward her by restoring her paladin status.

Of course she won't tell them that any more than Nale will tell her that he hopes to learn how to use the gates.

[agentx42]

No.

And since I'm always wrong, yes.

[Callista]

Miko's too serious a character... I don't think she'd mesh well with the Linear Guild. Even as a Good character her personality was abrasive and unsuited to cooperation; as a fallen Paladin, her personality will be even worse. I doubt Nale would want to put up with her.

Miko is destined to be alone, and probably prefers to be alone. The only way I can see her working closely with people, as someone in an adventuring party would, is for her to recognize and correct the superior, isolationist attitude which has led to her downfall. Whether this leads to an Atonement, or just to a more easygoing Miko, it would allow her to become a functional part of a group.

As she is now, Miko is more effective as a character and as a person when she works alone. She is unable to consider herself to be a part of a group; as it is, she will consider herself to be superior and consider the group to be a distasteful necessity; that makes long-term cooperation as a group member quite unlikely.

[Planewalker]

I don't think that the two groups of OOTS-enemies woukd mix well. But I do think meeting Sabine in jail satisfies the "make peaceful contact with and evil outsider" requirement of the Blackguard.

[Raistlin1040]

No way. I at least hope not.

[toughluck]

The only problem with Miko meeting the Linear Guild is that Shojo ordered them taken away to isolation. However, this can be overcome because that was Shojo's word, and Hinjo's not obliged to abide by it. I will assume there was no time, or there has been a misunderstanding and either the LG is taken away to a regular prison, or Miko is to be taken to solitary confinement conveniently located between Belkar's and LG's cells.

1. LG are enemies of OotS, so also natural allies for Miko (or rather her delusions). Nale is very good with his Bluff skill, so he IS able to trick Miko into believing him.
2. The Giant has planned WAY ahead. We didn't see most of the plot twists coming, I doubt anyone expects otherwise right now. However, one thing is obvious: the Giant never thought Miko to be a paragon of virtue, and then had a flash that he could make her fall just as a neat plot twist.
3. Sabine is an outsider. If anything, this is a perfect setting for a fallen paladin to become a blackguard. Miko has possibly fulfilled all the prerequisites for becoming one (including the absurd five ranks of Hide requirement covered by her Monk levels). This seems way too convenient not to explore. "Restoring" Miko's paladin powers by Sabine provides neat plot twists:
- Miko will believe that gods ordained her meeting with LG and that she has "seen" through OotS treachery;
- she will also believe that since LG have been instrumental in restoring her paladinship, they obviously must be good;
- since Hinjo ordered LG locked away, he must be evil;

I don't know how many people read the Giant's articles concerning various characters (including how NOT to play paladins). I read them before OotS #1 (yes, I'm one of those people that haven't read through the archive backwards, but "live" forward). The article on how NOT to play paladins applies very neatly to Miko. In fact, as soon as I saw Miko talking to the OotS, she was obviously the moral police that Giant was talking about and advising against.

--- edit: addition ---
By the way, don't expect Miko to join with Xykon. OotS (according to her) is obviously working with him to destroy Azure City (she came to this conclusion and says so in her own words in #337: "...the danger posed by this lich, the goblin priest, and their obvious lackeys, the Order of the Stick.").
This precludes her from joining Xykon. LG are a different story, especially as they are the opposites of the OotS.

[ElphabaFanatic]

I think it is unlikly, but Nale might just manipulate her while she's in her current state of mind.

[toughluck]

Remember that this was first a gaming site. Rich created the comic to illustrate some concepts he put in his articles. The story itself is one giant illustration to his articles, although by now it has overshadowed everything else.

Bearing this in mind, I would like to direct your attention to these two quotes from Rich's articles:



http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html
The original paladin class created the precedent for one player thinking he has the right to dictate the morality of other players. That drives me nuts. Ever since, players who select a Lawful Good character automatically assume it is up to them to police the rest of the party, and too often, the rest of the party lets them. As far as I'm concerned, no player has the right to tell another player how to act. Lawful Good is not the "right" way to be, and it is unacceptable to push your character's ideals on other players whether they want them or not.
Note that he said "whether they want them or not". It's possible that a group would accept the paladin's ideals (indeed, that's what's usually the driver for people to join one), and I think Roy or Durkon would have little against accepting Miko's ideals, although not pushing them per se.


http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html
Don't forget that "positive" emotions (such as Love or Honor) might lead to villainy as well, if taken too far.

Here's Miko for you. You've got a fleshed-out villain. Becoming a Blackguard seems like the way to go for Miko. She's deluded enough to believe that the twelve gods have a special plan for her and that her fall and subsequent rise to a Blackguard was the sign that the gods have abandoned the Sapphire Guard and not her. She's deluded enough to believe that if they protect the gate in the throne room, it must be taken (and possibly destroyed or harnessed in some way).

[Demented]

She's deluded enough to believe that the twelve gods have a special plan for her and that her fall and subsequent rise to a Blackguard was the sign that the gods have abandoned the Sapphire Guard and not her.

I like it. No, I love it.

[Lord Zentei]

Note that he said "whether they want them or not". It's possible that a group would accept the paladin's ideals (indeed, that's what's usually the driver for people to join one), and I think Roy or Durkon would have little against accepting Miko's ideals, although not pushing them per se.

On this note:

Funny thing is, seeing as they are based on the Knights of the Round Table, the Paladins of Charlemagne, and others of that ilk; and moreover, they are meant to be uncompromising enforcers of Law and Good, then yes, yes they should do just that.

If they get stuff like Detect Evil, Smite Evil and absolutely cannot perform a single evil act or associate with evil characters it would seem quite bizarre that they should not enforce Lawful Good behaviour in their own damn party.


The main issue, then, is whether the players had gotten together and discussed how the group was meant to function before someone decided on a whim to be a paladin. Making your character a paladin is a descision that should meet with the consent of your fellow players, if you intend to play him to the hilt without any ugliness arising during the game.

I might add that I am not a particular fan of moral relativism, but it seems particularly off in a universe where Good and Evil are objective.

[toughluck]

Any RPG (non-computer, but more on that later) should be played like an actual role play. The players should not form a party, but rather characters that are to meet together to form a party. That way a paladin has his place in one. However, a player that wants to be a paladin must also have a reason and a chance to join the party with other players. If there are four people round the table, one of them plays a paladin and the rest are a CE thief, a LE wizard and a NE cleric of Bane, how is the first supposed to form a party with the others?
This can easily stand in a computer RPG because there likely won't be any buts about the composition (with a few notable exceptions, e.g. Baldur's Gate series). If you form the complete party (EoB style games), you can fiddle around with your characters, there won't be actual role playing anywhere in the actual game.

Lord Zentei -- I agree that paladins are de facto enforcers of law and good, and as such they are supposed to fulfill missions and quests, but when they work with a party, the rule is a bit off. A paladin-evil others party aside, the paladin recruits the help of the party to accomplish his goals, but also has to side with them when somebody else needs help, and has to take a side when somebody acts against his ideals. Even if a paladin should say that he cannot aid them in doing evil, he mustn't for that sole reason say he'll not play. Of course, the rest of the party might not agree to let a paladin into the formation, but if they agree, they have to try to keep up with his morality, or at least not act openly against it.

Miko was the opposite of how a paladin should be played. She wasn't sent to merge with the party, but subdue it, it's obvious. In due course, however, she actively pushed her morality on them, and not what's good or what's lawful, but what she considered her tenets (e.g. sleeping in a ditch).

---another addition :-) ---
Ooooo... Roy plans ahead! I've ran through some strips in the archive and Miko already knows about the LG:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html
They called Nale Elan's "evil twin". In her current state of mind, Miko will believe the following:
1. Linear Guild are the good guys since OotS are evil (according to her).
2. OotS are responsible for LG's loss of at least five party members.

Miko might have ranks in Hide:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0199.html
True, she didn't appear purely out of plot reasons, but even so, ranks in Hide would be helpful in creating that effect.

[Jayabalard]

As per villain tradition I expect Nale to sweet talk her into it.Yup.

They'll hide Sabine and bluff being the "good guys" ... eventually the truth will come out and Miko will have to make a decision, side with the linear guild and become a blackguard or work toward atoning for her evil.

Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if that's not finished until near the end of the next story arc, perhaps even saving/destroying the gate at the last moment before nale or Xykon take control of the snarl.

[rosebud]

Well, there's multiple love triangle possibilities. If we can have Beats Pay-Per-View (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) in this series, Miko might take Roy's advice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) with Sabine or Nale. It's not like she can detect evil anymore, and a fallen paladin might be irresistible to one of them.

[Indon]

Out of curiosity, once peaceful contact has been made, does it have to be maintained?

I could potentially foresee Miko joining the LG long enough to make that contact and become a Blackguard under the rationale that she has to play along while she gets back on her feet, and then immediately turn on the LG once she's become one.

This seems like the most likely scenario for me as well.

[Lord Zentei]

Any RPG (non-computer, but more on that later) should be played like an actual role play. The players should not form a party, but rather characters that are to meet together to form a party. That way a paladin has his place in one. However, a player that wants to be a paladin must also have a reason and a chance to join the party with other players. If there are four people round the table, one of them plays a paladin and the rest are a CE thief, a LE wizard and a NE cleric of Bane, how is the first supposed to form a party with the others?
This can easily stand in a computer RPG because there likely won't be any buts about the composition (with a few notable exceptions, e.g. Baldur's Gate series). If you form the complete party (EoB style games), you can fiddle around with your characters, there won't be actual role playing anywhere in the actual game.

Indeed, that's why I stated that the descision to play a paladin (and here I was talking about a tabletop game, obviously) should be one that has to be accepted by the player group overall.


Lord Zentei -- I agree that paladins are de facto enforcers of law and good, and as such they are supposed to fulfill missions and quests, but when they work with a party, the rule is a bit off. A paladin-evil others party aside, the paladin recruits the help of the party to accomplish his goals, but also has to side with them when somebody else needs help, and has to take a side when somebody acts against his ideals. Even if a paladin should say that he cannot aid them in doing evil, he mustn't for that sole reason say he'll not play. Of course, the rest of the party might not agree to let a paladin into the formation, but if they agree, they have to try to keep up with his morality, or at least not act openly against it.

Not really; the restrictions placed upon what actions a paladin can take as a consequence of his code is what balances his powerful abilities. To countenance behaviour that go against the code is not to play a paladin correctly. The chivalric ideal - in the manner of the classical conception of Launcelot and Galahad, etc. - is what the paladin is meant to be about; if he can simply ignore chivalric virtue at his convenience (in his allies, if not himself), then the code is without meaning, and the paladin simply becomes another LG fighter with some divine spells.

To play a paladin must therefore be a group descision since it influences the flavour entire campaign. If the group is not comfortable with that, then the alternative is not to "not play" as you claim, but to use a different character instead.


Miko was the opposite of how a paladin should be played. She wasn't sent to merge with the party, but subdue it, it's obvious. In due course, however, she actively pushed her morality on them, and not what's good or what's lawful, but what she considered her tenets (e.g. sleeping in a ditch).

Complete nonsense. If it was her mission to subdue and arrest the party then she was to do presicely that. You are assessing her behaviour from the assumption that she and the OOTS were run by players at a gaming table - doubly false: first because they were not "her" party, and second because you are confusing the player with the character (not that the characters in the story are actually being run by actual players anyway). Neither was she obligated to pay for room and board at some hotel on their behalf if they were her prisoners.

If the player cannot play the character in a manner that is correct given that characters class and alignment without causing friction with the other players, then there is something wrong with the party composition or the campaign or both.

[toughluck]

Complete nonsense. If it was her mission to subdue and arrest the party then she was to do presicely that.
Precisely. Subdue and deliver them to trial. Not preach about how sleeping in ditches helps build character or do side quests (dirt farmers) on the way.

You are assessing her behaviour from the assumption that she and the OOTS were run by players at a gaming table - doubly false: first because they were not "her" party, and second because you are confusing the player with the character (not that the characters in the story are actually being run by actual players anyway).
This is an assumption that flows straight from the fact that the site is devoted to rpgaming (tabletop mostly), and as OotS can be considered PCs, Miko is either a NPC or GMC.

Neither was she obligated to pay for room and board at some hotel on their behalf if they were her prisoners.
Not exactly prisoners. As could possibly be proven, she had no right to take them captive outside of her jurisdiction and they had the right to fight for their freedom.
She had no right to expect they would value sleeping in ditches if they wanted to sleep in an inn. If they were free to go, they would pay with their own money. If they're under her custody, she is supposed to pay for it with her money. She'll be compensated at home for all expenses. It's called penitentiary system.

[Lord Zentei]

Precisely. Subdue and deliver them to trial. Not preach about how sleeping in ditches helps build character or do side quests (dirt farmers) on the way.

There is no merit to the argument that the "sleeping in ditches" bit was out of line, particularly when the alternative was an expensive inn which she was not obligated to pay for.

As for the dirt farmers: leaving them to their fate would have been a non-Good act. Simply because she is placing the OotS under arrest does not mean that she is not to aid people in need along the way.


This is an assumption that flows straight from the fact that the site is devoted to rpgaming (tabletop mostly), and as OotS can be considered PCs, Miko is either a NPC or GMC.

That changes nothing; the player is not the character.

In any case, if she is a NPC/GMPC, then the argument that she is being "played incorrectly" with references to powerplayers falls flat on its face: then she is an antagonist, plain and simple, moreover, an antagonist that follows her alignment and mission profile correctly.


Not exactly prisoners. As could possibly be proven, she had no right to take them captive outside of her jurisdiction and they had the right to fight for their freedom.

Nonsense. The Sapphire Guard has universal jurisdiction: Shojo explained this distinction during the trial. Moreover, regardless of whether the charges were trumped up, they are her prisoners regardless.

And yes, they are prisoners, since they were under arrest to be taken to trial.


She had no right to expect they would value sleeping in ditches if they wanted to sleep in an inn. If they were free to go, they would pay with their own money. If they're under her custody, she is supposed to pay for it with her money. She'll be compensated at home for all expenses. It's called penitentiary system.

So: when you are arrested by the cops, you have the right to expect them to pay for and/or allow you a night at the Hilton along the way to the slammer? Give me a break.

[Willahad]

If she turns evil, then she will most likely (I hope) become a black gaurd

[toughluck]

So: when you are arrested by the cops, you have the right to expect them to pay for and/or allow you a night at the Hilton along the way to the slammer? Give me a break.
If anybody is arrested by the police that act outside of their jurisdiction, then yes.
I know Shojo explained about universal jurisdiction. But I disagree. They have jurisdiction only where the twelve gods' influence extends. If there were paladins of, say, Thor, they should be the ones to prosecute OotS, as Dorukan's gate was under their jurisdiction (temples and whatnot, with Thor flinging thunderbolts over there). If anything, OotS were still only suspected, not guilty as charged.

[Lord Zentei]

If anybody is arrested by the police that act outside of their jurisdiction, then yes.

Rubbish.


I know Shojo explained about universal jurisdiction. But I disagree. They have jurisdiction only where the twelve gods' influence extends. If there were paladins of, say, Thor, they should be the ones to prosecute OotS, as Dorukan's gate was under their jurisdiction (temples and whatnot, with Thor flinging thunderbolts over there). If anything, OotS were still only suspected, not guilty as charged.

The Twelve Gods participated in the creation of the entire world, not just the south lands. Moreover, the destruction of the gate concerns Azure City also, since it would be destroyed were the Snarl released.

Anyway, everyone is "only suspected" until their trial is over, that has nothing to do with the claim that they can expect to be treated to the Hilton while under arrest.

[toughluck]

OK, let's just agree to disagree. After all, it started as a discussion of whether or not Miko had the right to push her tenets (and not morality) on OotS.

I still think that she had no right to. She might be accustomed to sleeping in ditches, but OotS are not. And I doubt everyone in Azure City sleeps in ditches either, so Miko might be the only one who believes it helps build the character. She didn't pack camping supplies and an inn was nearby, what were they supposed to do?

[Josh Inno]

The scenario I view as likely:
Miko is thrown in the lock up. The linear guild is nearbye. When the linear guild breaks out during the battle (as they will according to the OotS's own logic) they will likewise free Miko. Perhaps by accident, perhaps by Nale's design.

Then once outside of the antimagic field, Sabine will disguise herself as a celestial, and play upon Miko's conviction that she is destined for something greater, and will make a Willing Miko a blackguard who believes herself to be a holy champion who must undertake unsavory actions in the name of good.

[Lord Zentei]

OK, let's just agree to disagree. After all, it started as a discussion of whether or not Miko had the right to push her tenets (and not morality) on OotS.

Heh, saying "lets agree to disagree" and then shooting off more arguments. It's either the one or the other, you know.

Anyway: "tenets and not morality"? Would you accept her pushing morality alone then? That means, I guess, that the dirt farmer scene is no longer a source of objection for you?


I still think that she had no right to. She might be accustomed to sleeping in ditches, but OotS are not. And I doubt everyone in Azure City sleeps in ditches either, so Miko might be the only one who believes it helps build the character. She didn't pack camping supplies and an inn was nearby, what were they supposed to do?

Not be uncooperative under arrest? And they had travelled through the Wooden Forest without any pit stops at local Hiltons, so I don't buy that "not used to/not equipped for camping" schtick. Besides, an arresting officer is not required to pay for luxuries for prisoners along the way.

Was their behaviour understandible? Hell, yes. Was Miko unjustified in being reluctant to pay for high priced hotels for prisoners? Hell no. What kind of budget do you think a paladin and/or police ourfit would be running in such a case? Should Nale have expected to be treated to the Hilton as well had it been him?

[AllisterH]

I think Paladins are a badly designed class. Moreso than any other class, a paladin's "roll-playing" benefits are matched by "role-playing" drawbacks which should NEVER be under a PC's control especially when they can be affected by the party. When 3E was designed, they supposedly made paladins equal to all other classes but it still was saddled with the role-playing drawbacks but not once does the DMG mention the role-playing benefits that should go along.

A paladin, in a normal D%D world, should be the rarest of ANY of the DMG classes AND the prestige classes (excluding their direct opposites blackguards). While unlike previous editions, a paladin doesn't have hard limits, it still has the most "needed" stats in the game. The only dump stat a paladin has is DEX and INT (and really, a dumb paladin seems so OOC that at the least, this should be average) plus you have the restriction of being LG AND then you dump an even more restrictive moral code AND the fact that paladins are called by the gods? Just the idea of having a paladin be interested with you should make a normal party crap their pants. They should be thinking "oh bloody hell, what type of trouble are we in now?"

This arc with Miko has FIRMLY convinced me that paladins should be an NPC class. As the previous poster mentioned, the paladins are based on the fantastical interpretations of chilvary and virtue of King arthur and Charlemagne. What a lot of people forget is that there were "social" benefits to being a member of that class. The idea that other adventurers (especially good-aligned ones) would treat them just like say they interact if they ran into a fighter is wrong IMO

[Lord Zentei]

AllisterH, agreed entirely, though with one important caveat: it might be possible to play a paladin campaign IF all players are aboard for the theme and IF they are skilled roleplayers.

As for instance, there is an acutal King Arthur roleplaying game based on the Runequest system: needless to say the chivalric theme is a core issue to the game design. As for instance:
All the players must play chivalric knights.
The characters are actually rated on over a dozen personality stats reflecting their chivalry. Failure has specific drawbacks to the characters' awesomeness.
The future history of the campaign is set in stone, with each set of sessions representing a year of Arthur's reign. Large scale events are unavoidable. Camelot will fall, and the characters will die. It is Fated. The question is only how well they die and how well they lived up to their ideals.Very fatalistic and tragically heroic, and not the stuff for a casual game. But it can be done.

[Ampersand]

I don't think that the two groups of OOTS-enemies woukd mix well. But I do think meeting Sabine in jail satisfies the "make peaceful contact with and evil outsider" requirement of the Blackguard.

It actually doesn't, because Sabine is on the material plane under her own power. (Well, technically speaking another fiend's power, but she's still there as a result of a Plane Shift spell and not a summoning, which is the important distinction)

And the extent of contact matters as well...a few minutes chatting about the weather, exchanged greetings, or any other trivial interaction shouldn't count. (I'd like to say it can't, but I'm not writing the strip)


I think Paladins are a badly designed class. Moreso than any other class, a paladin's "roll-playing" benefits are matched by "role-playing" drawbacks which should NEVER be under a PC's control especially when they can be affected by the party. When 3E was designed, they supposedly made paladins equal to all other classes but it still was saddled with the role-playing drawbacks but not once does the DMG mention the role-playing benefits that should go along.

Not to mention that the "role-playing" draw backs are completely subjective. Bloody hellfire, look at the Miko discussions from...well, pretty much her introduction up on to the present and into the future. There's been people arguing that she should have Fallen for practically every action she's ever taken, including breathing (obviously the premeditated genocide of billions of bacteria and fungi spores!).

Just about any action your typical "Good-aligned" adventuring group takes during your average mission could be made into a violation of the paladin code...after all, they sterotypically routinely engage in unprovked slaughter and looting. Heck, paladins can fall because the DM had a fight with their boss/SO/message board and is looking for someone to take it out on...

[toughluck]

Lord_Zentei: Morality, yes. Tenets, as in rituals, no. Hope this clears things up. But I still mean tenets as in some ideals which are accepted by the chosen few (ie. the paladins).

I assume most people in Azure City (maybe not the nobles and their ninja squads) take on the morality stemming from the twelve gods. There might be tenets of faith they are accepting as well. And then there are ideals (sometimes named 'tenets' as well) that some individuals live by.

You can accept any given morality without accepting the tenets of a religion that embraces it as its own. And if there are some strict rules some individuals live by, not even every member of the religion is expected to live by them.

A good example would be the Catholic faith. It accepts morality stemming from Judaism as well as Roman law. Many other religious systems draw from these sources, as well as splinter religions. A single person, however, is expected to accept one of those religions as their own, not each that would work for them. Then there are monastic orders within a religion, and not every believer is expected to join one, and different orders accept different rules.

So I still stand by my assertion that even though a paladin expects the party he's in to act according to his morality, he should never impose his way of life, including his tenets or rituals, on anyone.

Did Miko have the right to expect them to sleep in a ditch. No way.


I doubt a paladin could ever fall when he's travelling with a good-aligned group (or even any non-evil-aligned group). What he doesn't know won't hurt him (as party members will hide some things from him), he can always chide somebody for his actions, moralise if something goes wrong ('I told you gluttony would lead to stomach ache, it'll pass, I won't lay on hands'), but I don't think he would smite somebody for kicking a rat (or fall if he failed to).

The true reason for a paladin's fall would either be what Miko did (she so totally deserved it), or what Ampersand said (DM had a fight with somebody and wants to take it out on somebody else).

[sethdarkwater]

It doesn't seem all that hard to do.

:nale: Hello there, sexy. I never thought I'd see a Paladin in jail.

:miko: An EX-paladin. But I have committed no crime!

:nale: Oh, sure, that's what they all say. Why are you...

:miko: It was the Order of the Stick! They seek to destroy Azure City, but I am on to their plans! If only I could get out of this cell, I could...

:miko: Wait... You're the evil twin of that fool in the Order of the Stick! You are the Linear Guild. They told me you were the ones responsible for the crimes committed while I was tracking them down!

:nale: What? No! The Order of the Stick did it. They're just pinning the blame on us.

:miko: That... that does make sense. I have heard scarcely anything but lies come from their blasphemous mouths. It is no surprise that they would have lied about that.

:nale: Good, good. Well, since we're past all that false blame, how would you like to join the Linear Guild? We are all about exacting vengeance, er, just retribution on the Order of the Stick for the crimes for which they're responsible. I can tell that you would make an excellent addition to the team.

:miko: Ally with you? Never! I may not be able to detect evil and your intentions seem honorable, but it is plainly obvious that you are evil, as you are allied with that contemptible evil fiend in your cell. I will not lower myself to association with such pathetic examples of vice, even though I no longer have to worry about the loss of my paladin abilities.

:sabine: Contemptible?

:nale: Shush. No, no, no, she's not a fiend. She's a... ah... a new kind of fey. Honest. It's the truth, my word of honor. You can trust us. Besides, all that good and evil stuff is old hat.

:miko: Very well. But, how do you expect to escape? These cells are magically warded and I oversaw the replacement of the locks with superior designed versions myself.

:nale: Shh.

*prison guards walks by*

:nale: *dangles prison cell keys* A sleight of hand check.

:miko: After the Order of the Stick are subdued, I will expect you to turn yourself in for theft.

That is excactly what I had in mind when I started this thread. Thankyou.

[AllisterH]

<snip discussion about IRL religion>

Did Miko have the right to expect them to sleep in a ditch. No way.




Yes she does. You keep forgetting they WERE HER PRISONERS. She is under no obligation to provide other than the basic necessities. Especially when she herself was willing to sleep in the ditch herself so you can't use the argument cruel and unusual punishment either.

Furthermore, you still are treating a paladin like she's just like any other class. A paladin in any game world should be rarer than dragon's teeth and should be somebody that non-paladin good-aligned people automaitcally kowtow to. If paladins are going to be saddled with such a restrictive role-playing drawback, they're should be a benefit as well since the class itself in 3E is supposedly balanced on the roll-playing side.

You're also allowing the paladin's to basically ignore their code when it suits them. The whole point of the code is that they are no deviations allowed. By not lecturing a party when it does something wrong, the paladin is implicitly saying "I agree with the "evil" action". By rights, a paladin should start losing their powers right then and there.

Players of course, pretty much won't play the game like that, but that's the fault of the players.

[Lord Zentei]

Lord_Zentei: Morality, yes. Tenets, as in rituals, no. Hope this clears things up. But I still mean tenets as in some ideals which are accepted by the chosen few (ie. the paladins).

<SNIP BLAH BLAH>

Did Miko have the right to expect them to sleep in a ditch. No way.

She was their captor, they were her prisoners. Therefore, she calls the shots. End of story. All this rant is nothing but a colossal red herring.

EDIT: And doubly so, since she did in fact not only allow them to stay at the inn, but actually agreed to pay for it, even when she had no moral or logical requirement to do either.

Moreover: that you assert that "she had no right to expect them to sleep outside" is irrelevant, since what she did is not force them to do so, but try and convince them to do so, which is by no means out of line, even were she an actual member of their party.


I doubt a paladin could ever fall when he's travelling with a good-aligned group (or even any non-evil-aligned group). What he doesn't know won't hurt him (as party members will hide some things from him), he can always chide somebody for his actions, moralise if something goes wrong ('I told you gluttony would lead to stomach ache, it'll pass, I won't lay on hands'), but I don't think he would smite somebody for kicking a rat (or fall if he failed to).

What exactly are you trying to say here?


The true reason for a paladin's fall would either be what Miko did (she so totally deserved it), or what Ampersand said (DM had a fight with somebody and wants to take it out on somebody else).

Deserved it for killing Shojo, yes. Deserved it for anything else, no.

[sethdarkwater]

Oh my it seems no and thog smashing the poll are in the lead. Well thanks for all the supporters of Miko's joining the LG