Is it logically possible for someone in the DCU to beat the Flash?

[Shinken]

I mean in a one on one fight where both are physically fit (anyone could stab him in his sleep or something). I've lost interest in Flash stories after Mark Waid's masterpiece Terminal Velocity. It's very good, specially because it gives you a reson why Flash isn't running at full speed all the time - he fears being dragged into the Speed Force. At the end, though, Flash is just ridiculously powerful, being able to lend his speed to others while being faster than ever.
Aside from Reverse Flash, I can't think of anyone even close to being comparable to him. It's a big problem with speedsters in comics, something I've seen writers complain about specially in team books - it's just too powerful to be challenged. It's like Kid Flash in the Teen Titans cartoon - he does whatever he wants, when he wants and there is nothing you can do about it.
Sometimes writers use sneak attacks to catch speedsters off guard (Deathstroke shot Impulse in the knee using such a tactic), but that's simply bad writing - we have been told several times their reaction time is ridiculous (specially this new femtosecond nonsense with Barry), Bart should be able to listen the shot being fired then dodging it.
My question is - how can you challenge the Flash in an actual fight without resorting to bad writing or retcons?

[TeChameleon]

Lesse... just off the top of my head:

1) Anyone with the standard Kryptonian, Daxamite, or Martian powersets. Very nearly equivalent speed, plus a boatload of other powers as well. And there's not exactly a real shortage of those types running around in the DCU.

2) Any of the Colour Corps members (at least those that can create constructs or fire blasts). Lightspeed weaponry and flight. They may not have Flash's reaction time, but he can't reach them very easily, and their attacks move as fast as he does (at least, 'lightspeed' is usually presented as his top speed without time-jumping or entering the speed force... in practice... yeah.)

3) Illusion-casters, teleporters and mind-controllers/influencers. In practice, that's a lot of the magical and psychic characters in the DCU. As far as I can recall, the Flash (in whatever incarnation) is usually presented as being heavily dependent on sight, and anything that can mess with that can screw him over royally. Teleporters can move even faster than he does, and mind-powers don't seem to have any kind of need for direct targeting, and are thus largely un-dodgeable.

4) Anyone with 'ghosting' powers. Intangibility is something he really can't do a lot about, and if you couple that with invisibility, the Sultan of Speed is going to have a rough time of it.

5) Those with environmental control powers. If he suddenly finds himself in a vacuum, or the ground opening up to swallow him, there's not much he's going to be able to do.

6) Anyone who can remove his traction in one fashion or another. If he can't run, or get slapped into a wall by his own speed, his threat level is vastly reduced.

There's lots of DC characters that can give the Flash a fairly solid challenge; it's just a matter of the writers using them to their fullest advantage.

[factotum]

The main problem with dealing with the Flash is one of detection--how do you detect him approaching at the speeds he travels at? Once you've solved that issue (a mind-reader could do it easily, for instance) then the Flash ain't got much else as backup, unlike, say, Superman, who can travel pretty much as fast and is also invulnerable to pretty much anything you're likely to be able to throw at him!

[Tyrant]

Bart should be able to listen the shot being fired then dodging it.
I'm in no way an expert on the Flash or firearms, but I don't believe that would work. The loud crack you hear when a gun fires is the bullet breaking the sound barrier. Unless an enemy is using sub sonic for some reason (I can't think of why they would use slower bullets against The Flash), if you can hear the gun shot the bullet is already there because it is moving faster than the sound of the gun shot. I'm not saying The Flash isn't fast enough to dodge bullets, he is, I'm saying I'm pretty sure he's dead if he's relying on hearing the gun shot before he reacts.

Having said that, I agree that it can be difficult to come up with a plausible way to get around his powers if he is written properly. Then again, I have that same problem with Superman and many other comic book characters so I generally ignore it unless it is particularly aggravating.

[Closet_Skeleton]

4) Anyone with 'ghosting' powers. Intangibility is something he really can't do a lot about, and if you couple that with invisibility, the Sultan of Speed is going to have a rough time of it.

If the writer wants him to, there's no reason the Flash can't just 'vibrate at the exact right frequency' to touch ethereal entities. He can certainly move between dimensions and that's how Phantom Girl, DCs main intangible character, works.

But in the DC universe, The Anti-Monitor has already killed everyone there is (except himself and the Monitor who he only had to kill one of) an infinite number of times, so that's pretty simple. Johnny Quick was the Earth Three Flash and didn't last a panel if he even appeared while his universe was torn apart around him.

[Shinken]

Lesse... just off the top of my head:

1) Anyone with the standard Kryptonian, Daxamite, or Martian powersets. Very nearly equivalent speed, plus a boatload of other powers as well. And there's not exactly a real shortage of those types running around in the DCU.
Not really, the Flash is a lot faster than them.
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me5pimLoFP1r29qfqo1_500.jpg


2) Any of the Colour Corps members (at least those that can create constructs or fire blasts). Lightspeed weaponry and flight. They may not have Flash's reaction time, but he can't reach them very easily, and their attacks move as fast as he does (at least, 'lightspeed' is usually presented as his top speed without time-jumping or entering the speed force... in practice... yeah.)
But their reaction time is still human (or whatever their race is). They can't compete with Flash, really.


3) Illusion-casters, teleporters and mind-controllers/influencers. In practice, that's a lot of the magical and psychic characters in the DCU. As far as I can recall, the Flash (in whatever incarnation) is usually presented as being heavily dependent on sight, and anything that can mess with that can screw him over royally. Teleporters can move even faster than he does, and mind-powers don't seem to have any kind of need for direct targeting, and are thus largely un-dodgeable.
Mind powers and illusions wouldn't really work on a 1-on-1 fight, since even if the Flash misses a punch, it's still a nuke. You're just not in ground zero.


4) Anyone with 'ghosting' powers. Intangibility is something he really can't do a lot about, and if you couple that with invisibility, the Sultan of Speed is going to have a rough time of it.
That doesn't really work, the Flash's speed crosses dimensional boundaries.


5) Those with environmental control powers. If he suddenly finds himself in a vacuum, or the ground opening up to swallow him, there's not much he's going to be able to do.
But you can't do that before he reaches you and beats you.


6) Anyone who can remove his traction in one fashion or another. If he can't run, or get slapped into a wall by his own speed, his threat level is vastly reduced.
Again, you can't do it before he beats you.


There's lots of DC characters that can give the Flash a fairly solid challenge; it's just a matter of the writers using them to their fullest advantage.
That's mostly writers ignoring how fast he is, IMHO.


The main problem with dealing with the Flash is one of detection--how do you detect him approaching at the speeds he travels at? Once you've solved that issue (a mind-reader could do it easily, for instance) then the Flash ain't got much else as backup, unlike, say, Superman, who can travel pretty much as fast and is also invulnerable to pretty much anything you're likely to be able to throw at him!

You could know he was coming, but you can't react fast enough to do anything about it.


I'm in no way an expert on the Flash or firearms, but I don't believe that would work. The loud crack you hear when a gun fires is the bullet breaking the sound barrier. Unless an enemy is using sub sonic for some reason (I can't think of why they would use slower bullets against The Flash), if you can hear the gun shot the bullet is already there because it is moving faster than the sound of the gun shot. I'm not saying The Flash isn't fast enough to dodge bullets, he is, I'm saying I'm pretty sure he's dead if he's relying on hearing the gun shot before he reacts.

Having said that, I agree that it can be difficult to come up with a plausible way to get around his powers if he is written properly. Then again, I have that same problem with Superman and many other comic book characters so I generally ignore it unless it is particularly aggravating.

I almost thought bullets were slower than sound, didn't know that crack was a sonic boom. Yeah, if he was going to rely on sound, he would be pretty screwed.


If the writer wants him to, there's no reason the Flash can't just 'vibrate at the exact right frequency' to touch ethereal entities. He can certainly move between dimensions and that's how Phantom Girl, DCs main intangible character, works.

But in the DC universe, The Anti-Monitor has already killed everyone there is (except himself and the Monitor who he only had to kill one of) an infinite number of times, so that's pretty simple. Johnny Quick was the Earth Three Flash and didn't last a panel if he even appeared while his universe was torn apart around him.

But that's just bad writing, right? I remember one stupid story where the Batman "defeated" the whole Justice League - he defeats the Flash by throwing a smoke bomb towards the Flash, while the Flash was already running towards him. Let's see what's wrong with this scenario:
1) Batman was able to see the Flash moving in superspeed, from the other side of the room, had enough time to grab a smoke bomb from his utility belt and enough time to throw it, before the Flash (moving at superspeed) could reach him from the other side of the room.
2) Batman, knowing Flash is superfast, thought this stupid plan was a good idea.
3) The smoke bomb travels from Batman hand, hits the ground, explodes, the smokes fills the room all of that before the Flash moving in superseed runs across the damn room. Heck, I'm faster than that.
4) Flash stops running. The wind caused by the sudden stop somehow doesn't dissipate the smoke cloud.
5) Flash is "defeated", because he sure as hell can't cause a hurricane to dissipate the smoke or just walk out of the area (it's not even toxic smoke or anything).

[CarpeGuitarrem]

But that's just bad writing, right? I remember one stupid story where the Batman "defeated" the whole Justice League - he defeats the Flash by throwing a smoke bomb towards the Flash, while the Flash was already running towards him. Let's see what's wrong with this scenario:
1) Batman was able to see the Flash moving in superspeed, from the other side of the room, had enough time to grab a smoke bomb from his utility belt and enough time to throw it, before the Flash (moving at superspeed) could reach him from the other side of the room.
2) Batman, knowing Flash is superfast, thought this stupid plan was a good idea.
3) The smoke bomb travels from Batman hand, hits the ground, explodes, the smokes fills the room all of that before the Flash moving in superseed runs across the damn room. Heck, I'm faster than that.
4) Flash stops running. The wind caused by the sudden stop somehow doesn't dissipate the smoke cloud.
5) Flash is "defeated", because he sure as hell can't cause a hurricane to dissipate the smoke or just walk out of the area (it's not even toxic smoke or anything).
Obviously, it was a Flash-bane grenade.

:smallbiggrin:

[Shinken]

Obviously, it was a Flash-bane grenade.

:smallbiggrin:

Hahahahaha, that would actually make some sort of sense, wouldn't it?
Oh, btw, this is Flash removing everyone from a city after a nuke has been dropped but before it affects any of them.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/2/24850/533265-522446_jla89pg012jd8zn0ao_super.jpg

[Kato]

That doesn't really work, the Flash's speed crosses dimensional boundaries.


How does speed cross dimensional boundaries? :smallconfused:


If you're going to argue with the "you can't react fast enough" thing the only point one can make is just being immune to his powers. either just being so damn indestructible even his force doesn't matter or e.g. being able to absorb kinetic energy (like Marvel's Blob iirc)
Obviously, you can't very well win just because he can't hurt you but well..

But to be honest, most end-scale superheroess are so OP it's boring anyway and all loses or such are more or less bad writing... it's just better writing if you enjoy the story enough to ignore it.

[Shinken]

How does speed cross dimensional boundaries? :smallconfused:
Beats me. Flash vibrates in ways that makes him a multidimensional being. I don't think that makes any sense, but it is what it is.



If you're going to argue with the "you can't react fast enough" thing the only point one can make is just being immune to his powers. either just being so damn indestructible even his force doesn't matter or e.g. being able to absorb kinetic energy (like Marvel's Blob iirc)
Obviously, you can't very well win just because he can't hurt you but well..
Yeah, that's my point.


But to be honest, most end-scale superheroess are so OP it's boring anyway and all loses or such are more or less bad writing... it's just better writing if you enjoy the story enough to ignore it.
My problem is mostly with Flash being this demigod dude who gets trouble from random freaks with gadgets every month. Why do the writers say he is so powerful only to ignore it later? Marvel's Quicksilver is a speedster, but he is a lot slower, so it makes sense when he gets defeated, for example. New52's Wonder Woman is always shown to be the goddess she quite clearly is, in another example.
I guess what I'm saying is, why does it seem so hard for the writers to write Flash stories that portray him as the Flash instead of making him look like an idiot? If he is too powerful to be written right, why don't they make him less powerful?

[factotum]

Hahahahaha, that would actually make some sort of sense, wouldn't it?
Oh, btw, this is Flash removing everyone from a city after a nuke has been dropped but before it affects any of them.


Doesn't work. Look at the numbers--there are 532,000 people in the city, and they were carried "one or two" at a time. Let's be charitable and assume all of them were carried 2 at a time, so only 266,000 round trips of 70 miles were required. That's a total distance of more than 18 million miles, and even at "a hair's breadth short of the speed of light" that distance would take more than a minute and a half to cover. To do it in the 0.00001 microseconds stated in the strip, Flash would have to be travelling at 10^13 times lightspeed--or, to put it another way, he could travel from Earth to the Andromeda galaxy in around 6 seconds!

[Shinken]

Doesn't work. Look at the numbers--there are 532,000 people in the city, and they were carried "one or two" at a time. Let's be charitable and assume all of them were carried 2 at a time, so only 266,000 round trips of 70 miles were required. That's a total distance of more than 18 million miles, and even at "a hair's breadth short of the speed of light" that distance would take more than a minute and a half to cover. To do it in the 0.00001 microseconds stated in the strip, Flash would have to be travelling at 10^13 times lightspeed--or, to put it another way, he could travel from Earth to the Andromeda galaxy in around 6 seconds!

More bad writing, then. :smalltongue:

[otakuryoga]

not to mention...what should have happened when Flash grabs someone standing still and they are instantly accelerated to his "speed of light" velocity

can someone say "messy"?
--good thing flash dresses in red

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm pretty sure they explained that by having the speed force protect Flash and whatever he wants from friction.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Doesn't work. Look at the numbers--there are 532,000 people in the city, and they were carried "one or two" at a time. Let's be charitable and assume all of them were carried 2 at a time, so only 266,000 round trips of 70 miles were required. That's a total distance of more than 18 million miles, and even at "a hair's breadth short of the speed of light" that distance would take more than a minute and a half to cover. To do it in the 0.00001 microseconds stated in the strip, Flash would have to be travelling at 10^13 times lightspeed--or, to put it another way, he could travel from Earth to the Andromeda galaxy in around 6 seconds!

Comics writers don't do math?

[huttj509]

I'm pretty sure they explained that by having the speed force protect Flash and whatever he wants from friction.

Not friction, just inertia/acceleration. Weld an iron bar to a truck sticking out sideways, and have that bar hit you in the chest at 80 mph. It will literally knock your socks off (for certain socks, on a shaved leg...thanks Mythbusters). It will also possibly knock your legs off (at minimum that'd be significant joint injuries, from your torso trying to "pull" your arms and legs to stay together).

Like when someone's falling, and Superman slams into them from the side right before they hit. Ouch.

[Prime32]

How does speed cross dimensional boundaries? :smallconfused:...is exactly what Iron Man asked in the JLA/Avengers crossover. :smalltongue:

The DCU has very strange physical laws, even when the writers are paying attention to them. Not only does "charging an object with speed" let it travel between dimensions, Flash sometimes makes his costume out of solid speed. And depending on which writer you ask, the universe is slowly being contaminated by "speed energy" that gives everyone superpowers. Retroactively. Maybe their speed of light is faster than ours?

[Z3ro]

I'm pretty sure they explained that by having the speed force protect Flash and whatever he wants from friction.

At relativistic speeds it's not so much friction you need to worry about as fusion.

[Sayt]

I'm in no way an expert on the Flash or firearms, but I don't believe that would work. The loud crack you hear when a gun fires is the bullet breaking the sound barrier. Unless an enemy is using sub sonic for some reason (I can't think of why they would use slower bullets against The Flash), if you can hear the gun shot the bullet is already there because it is moving faster than the sound of the gun shot. I'm not saying The Flash isn't fast enough to dodge bullets, he is, I'm saying I'm pretty sure he's dead if he's relying on hearing the gun shot before he reacts.

Having said that, I agree that it can be difficult to come up with a plausible way to get around his powers if he is written properly. Then again, I have that same problem with Superman and many other comic book characters so I generally ignore it unless it is particularly aggravating.

Basically, there's two ways it can happen. The gun fires a bullet which is either subsonic or supersonic. If the round is supersonic, the bullet reaches the flash before he hears it, but not necessarily before it's seen, if his perception is in synch with his motion (Which is not an implausible thing, considering he can put his feet around debris on the ground while moving at mach billion).

If the bullet is subsonic, if arrives after the sound wave generated by the expanding gasses which launched it, and he and he gets a listen check as well as spot.

[otakuryoga]

both styles of bullet shooting made moot of course by using a nice high powered laser sniper rifle
:smallbiggrin:

[TeChameleon]

Not really, the Flash is a lot faster than them.
... ugh, that bit >.< How much faster the Flash is than Superman (and the others with his powerset) varies wildly from writer to writer, but even with a significant speed advantage on the Flash's part, they're still borderline-immune to everything he can do, and strong enough to turn him into a fine red mist with one punch. And also fry him from orbit with heat vision/flash vision/martian vision (yes, really, that's a thing, sad as it may be).


But their reaction time is still human (or whatever their race is). They can't compete with Flash, really.
What are you expecting the colour corps members to be doing in a fight with Flash, exactly? Or are you thinking of that one JLU fight where Sinestro was an imbecile and confronted the Flash in a tightly enclosed, underground space where Wally had every advantage... and still won? Even if they walked up to the Flash and said "Imma kill you!", whereupon Barry/Wally promptly attempted to remove their head or other relevant appendage, the rings have automated defenses. I'll grant that the infinite mass punch might potentially overwhelm those- they're canonically nowhere near as powerful as the shields generated by the users will or whatever- but it gives them a chance to tank that first attack. And if they manage that, there is a better-than-even chance (depending on the Lantern, of course) that the Flash is pretty screwed. He can't fly, they can. Eventually, one way or another, they're going to nail him and he's not going to be able to do much about it.


Mind powers and illusions wouldn't really work on a 1-on-1 fight, since even if the Flash misses a punch, it's still a nuke. You're just not in ground zero.
Uhm... really not sure how the Flash has nuclear blast punches- if you're assuming rod-from-god-type kinetic strikes, it kind of begs the question of how he's even running, since his feet would be hitting with that same amount of force with every step- but even if that were the case, there's no real reason to assume that the one casting the illusion would be anywhere near where the Flash thought they were. And it really seems to me that you're kind of selling the whole illusion-casting thing short. All they really need to do is subtly alter the height of one curb, for example; one broken/sprained ankle later, and the Flash has a cracked skull under the intermingled ruins of the sixteen buildings he just smashed through headfirst. And why wouldn't mind control work, exactly? One self-induced nuclear punch(?) to the face later, and the Flash's speed would kind of be a non-issue.


(Intangibility) doesn't really work, the Flash's speed crosses dimensional boundaries.
To be honest, I was more thinking of Gentleman Ghost when I said that; unless the Flash's speed somehow lets him punch actual, mystical-type ghosts, they're still going to give him fits. And if it's Kitty Pryde-type phasing that he's facing, then we're down to who can abuse the word 'molecule' more effectively. And invisibility is still going to give him problems either way.


But you can't (alter the environment) before he reaches you and beats you.
... so the Flash's arbitrary speed beats the arbitrary speed at which environment manipulators work? Again, what, exactly, are you expecting the combatants to be doing here? The Flash casually punching Terra's head off while she monologues, or what? Flash does have to slow down to interact with the rest of the world, including holding a conversation or figuring out what's actually going on through dialogue.


Again, you can't (remove his traction) before he beats you.
As far as I can tell, your assumption is that the two characters get dropped onto an infinite featureless plane with the fore-ordained knowledge that they're going to kill one another, and then Barry/Wally instantaneously punches the other character's head off. In anything more nuanced, there might be actual reasons why that doesn't happen, and the one who's removing the traction would have a chance to do so- as a simple example, while announcing "Imma kill you!" to the Flash.


But (the Anti-Monitor killing the Flash is) just bad writing, right?
Uh... the universe-eating demigod killing the Flash is bad writing? Wha..? The guy was erasing entire realities with waves of antimatter. If the friggin' planet is gone, the Flash dying along with it is not 'bad writing'!

How the Flash perceives things has always been an issue that the writers carefully ignore. Broadly speaking, he'd have to be able to 'shift gears' gradually between hyperspeed-awareness and 'can interact with the rest of the world'. The process cannot be instantaneous, or else he'd have two pairs of possibly-contradictory neural impulses- the regular ones and the superfast ones- hitting his muscles at the same time, with rather unpleasant results.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Basically, there's two ways it can happen. The gun fires a bullet which is either subsonic or supersonic. If the round is supersonic, the bullet reaches the flash before he hears it, but not necessarily before it's seen, if his perception is in synch with his motion (Which is not an implausible thing, considering he can put his feet around debris on the ground while moving at mach billion).

...huh. So you could theoretically shoot him from behind, presuming that he's not paying attention to what's behind him. Then again, he has all the time in the world to look back...so you set up people on every angle to shoot him. Wow, this is complicated. :smalltongue:

[GeekGirl]

Bart should be able to listen the shot being fired then dodging it.

I know Barry, i think in the new 52, was able to react to the bullet pressing on the skin of his neck and get out of the way (I'll see if I can find a scan). So it's possible Bart (or and Flashes) may have the reaction speed to get out of the way.

[Sayt]

...huh. So you could theoretically shoot him from behind, presuming that he's not paying attention to what's behind him. Then again, he has all the time in the world to look back...so you set up people on every angle to shoot him. Wow, this is complicated. :smalltongue:

Also he needs to not outrun the bullet.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I know Barry, i think in the new 52, was able to react to the bullet pressing on the skin of his neck and get out of the way (I'll see if I can find a scan). So it's possible Bart (or and Flashes) may have the reaction speed to get out of the way.
...I call HAX.

Also he needs to not outrun the bullet.
...right. That.

[Mordar]

I think this is a "Flash Wins" against almost everyone *if he wants to* and *if he starts the fight*. Furthermore, I think he wins against almost everyone even if they start the fight. As with all things, there is a "whose book is it" effect to consider as well.

If He Starts the Fight
Through multiple attacks, fetching a specific weapon, restraints, or pretty much any other such avenue, he can eliminate most of the JL-level heroes before they know they're even in a fight. Even the traditionally invulnerables are susceptible to an object (say a pebble) vibrated intangibly through their skin and deposited in any of a variety of fatal locations...alternatively, the Professor Zoom tactic of inducing death with just his fingers (that should handle Jonn and bypass questions about his ability to go incorporeal as well). Mind readers - even if they can decipher his hyperspeed thoughts (is it like listening to someone talk way too fast?) - couldn't process, much less act on, the information before Flash took them out. Plus, are they listening to everyone in the world? Unlikely. Environment manipulators, traction types, blasters and so forth all are unable to act before they are ended. Flyers do present a problem so long as they are in flight too high for Flash to legitimately impact via projectiles (at the moment he decides to start the fight) or if they are traditionally invulnerable.

If They Start the Fight
His perception and reaction time match his speed advantage. He can sense and dodge virtually any physical attack that he can detect, and escape the area of effect. Weaknesses to mind control, subtle perception manipulation, planetary destruction and FTL attacks all play against him...and probably magic, particularly non-physical outputs from a range beyond his perception, and equal-potency speedsters. I think a Lantern should be able to take him out via dirty tricks (say a lantern energy pebble in his brain), as should Zatanna and a handful of others. Planet-wide destruction would be clearly successful. The gray areas come with things like Supes heat vision...Batman's plotpower would probably enable him to come up with a speed force neutralizer, and thus Lex Luthor could probably do it as well...beyond that, I think Flash can pull the win.

- M

[Raimun]

I'm sure Batman could do it.

You know what he would do? Throw a batarang at him and then tie him up.

Or he would have some kind of Bat-Flash-Defense-Gadget on his belt. Or fly-so-fast-it-reverses-the-time-itself-gadget. It wouldn't be a problem.

Or... he could beat him if given enough prep time!

You know why?

BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN!

[Fjolnir]

The thing is, removing the Flash's traction has always been one of the keys to stopping him, he has several villians in his own rogues gallery that do exactly that including captain cold and the weather wizard.


And what is this "speed force" everyone knows that his anti-friction powers come from a 5th-dimension imp

[CarpeGuitarrem]

"Prepare to meet your nemesis, Flash! I am THE MIGHTY CRISCO!"

[Shinken]

I think this is a "Flash Wins" against almost everyone *if he wants to* and *if he starts the fight*. Furthermore, I think he wins against almost everyone even if they start the fight. As with all things, there is a "whose book is it" effect to consider as well.

If He Starts the Fight
Through multiple attacks, fetching a specific weapon, restraints, or pretty much any other such avenue, he can eliminate most of the JL-level heroes before they know they're even in a fight. Even the traditionally invulnerables are susceptible to an object (say a pebble) vibrated intangibly through their skin and deposited in any of a variety of fatal locations...alternatively, the Professor Zoom tactic of inducing death with just his fingers (that should handle Jonn and bypass questions about his ability to go incorporeal as well). Mind readers - even if they can decipher his hyperspeed thoughts (is it like listening to someone talk way too fast?) - couldn't process, much less act on, the information before Flash took them out. Plus, are they listening to everyone in the world? Unlikely. Environment manipulators, traction types, blasters and so forth all are unable to act before they are ended. Flyers do present a problem so long as they are in flight too high for Flash to legitimately impact via projectiles (at the moment he decides to start the fight) or if they are traditionally invulnerable.

If They Start the Fight
His perception and reaction time match his speed advantage. He can sense and dodge virtually any physical attack that he can detect, and escape the area of effect. Weaknesses to mind control, subtle perception manipulation, planetary destruction and FTL attacks all play against him...and probably magic, particularly non-physical outputs from a range beyond his perception, and equal-potency speedsters. I think a Lantern should be able to take him out via dirty tricks (say a lantern energy pebble in his brain), as should Zatanna and a handful of others. Planet-wide destruction would be clearly successful. The gray areas come with things like Supes heat vision...Batman's plotpower would probably enable him to come up with a speed force neutralizer, and thus Lex Luthor could probably do it as well...beyond that, I think Flash can pull the win.

- M

That's a very nice way to put it, agreed.

[Hopeless]

How about standing still?

Traditionally speedsters have a problem with doing nothing for any length of time, not sure if this applies to Barry though!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Heh. I don't know much about the DCU Flash, but the webcomic JL8 certainly portrays him as having a problem with standing still...

[Jayngfet]

Generally speaking, the only times Flash has been beat, it's more due to familiarity than power or technique, unless it's another speedster on that level. The rogues know flash well enough to predict his moves, and so does deathstroke. When he fought Green Lantern, Hal knew enough to make a mobeus strip racetrack then use his own momentum to crash him into his teammates.

The only way to beat someone that fast is to know the move they make before they think to make it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

For what it's worth Kid Flash (Wally West) and Impulse in Young Justice were shown to have trouble staying still (though Wally did outgrow that towards the second season).

[TeChameleon]

For what it's worth Kid Flash (Wally West) and Impulse in Young Justice were shown to have trouble staying still (though Wally did outgrow that towards the second season).
*chuckle*

Well, given that Impulse (at least in his original comics incarnation) has been referred to as 'the living personification of ADHD'...

[Metahuman1]

An energy absorber with an arbitrarily high/no upper limit of how much energy he can absorb and no relevant type of energy limits would be functionally invincible vs. Barry, assuming Barry's Morals are turned on and he's not prepared to phase his hand through the guys head then re-solidify it or some such.

A telepath with a reasonable power level or any kind of competent reality warper can shut him down pretty fast, especially if they know what there up against and get to make the opening move.

High enough caliber invulnerability can also allow you to rope-a-dope him as he does have a stamina limit, or, barring that, just go about your business while he keeps breaking his fists on you, letting them heal at speeds that would make deadpool green with envy and then hit you again just to re-break it.



As for his rogues, many of them come form the silver age at a time were making comics make sense was bottom of the priority list. Because there classic hold overs, the usual excuse is that Barry seldom if ever really fights them like a man who's playing for keeps, and they have there own mental issues to deal with so as often as not, they might do something so out there that Barry's Mind just draws a blank for a bit on how to deal with it, but he inevitably comes out on top.

There's an episode of Justice League Unlimited were Batman and Orian are helping flash on a day he's being honored by Central City deal with his Rouges Gallery, the episode in general and the scene in the diner with Batman, Orian, Flash and the Trickster in particular are very telling of this.

[Aotrs Commander]

There's an episode of Justice League Unlimited were Batman and Orian are helping flash on a day he's being honored by Central City deal with his Rouges Gallery, the episode in general and the scene in the diner with Batman, Orian, Flash and the Trickster in particular are very telling of this.

That was Wally, but point remains valid.

Also, that was a really great scene.

Poor Wally. He was my Flash. Dead in his most recent animated continuity (Young Justice) and non-existant in the current main one. He deserves better.



Wait, I just checked wiki. They introduced him into the new 52 as a dead guy?! Not... even showed up to kill him off, they introduced him already dead?!

For the love of...

...

*sigh*

I would like to say I'm surprised, but I really, really am not.

[Jayngfet]

An energy absorber with an arbitrarily high/no upper limit of how much energy he can absorb and no relevant type of energy limits would be functionally invincible vs. Barry, assuming Barry's Morals are turned on and he's not prepared to phase his hand through the guys head then re-solidify it or some such.

A telepath with a reasonable power level or any kind of competent reality warper can shut him down pretty fast, especially if they know what there up against and get to make the opening move.

High enough caliber invulnerability can also allow you to rope-a-dope him as he does have a stamina limit, or, barring that, just go about your business while he keeps breaking his fists on you, letting them heal at speeds that would make deadpool green with envy and then hit you again just to re-break it.



Barry is an energy absorber. He can just take all the kinetic energy out of bullets and use it for himself. Given Barry's other abilities let him manipulate the landscape better he still wins.

Likewise, the telepath or warper has to be able to think faster than he can move, which is very nearly lightspeed. Picking out an experienced target that fast is basically impossible for a human brain that isn't heavily augmented to handle. You've got an attosecond to launch your attack, and not a moment longer.

Invulnerability may work, but something in the neighborhood of an infinite mass punch would just leave you sunk a mile underground anyway while flash just vibrates his way to the surface. An inelegant solution, but it'd effectively allow him to "win". Even otherwise, that's not really "beating" the flash since you can't exactly counterattack unless you assume a scientist is dumb enough to wear himself out then collapse in front of you.

[Fan]

I have to step in and say that Barry isn't very nearly lightspeed.

he is in excess of TRILLIONS OF TIMES faster than light.

He is on an entirely different level from anyone else in the JL, and this holds true /all the way back in The Silver age/ when he gets serious?

Don't believe me?

Here's him destroying the Anti Monitor's Armor (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114806/3707117-2657489924-33142.jpg) a feat that the rest of the DC universe /together/ couldn't complete back in the Silver Age. This is all the Supermen of The Silver Age working in tandem, every Lantern, all the surviving members of alternate earths across INFINITY. Yeah those guys who were /faster than infinity/ couldn't manage the task.

Not a one could accomplish the task that Barry Allen did that day.

Everyone here should know that I am a superman fan first and foremost, but Flash would hand him his ass on a silver platter if he was ever serious about it. Wonder Woman too excepting if she had The Godwave, but that's a dubious power up state.

None of the other members in the JL, or even any of the non abstracts in the DCU would be able to /touch/ Flash, let alone give him a decent fight if we allow all his best feats.

[factotum]

None of the other members in the JL, or even any of the non abstracts in the DCU would be able to /touch/ Flash, let alone give him a decent fight if we allow all his best feats.

Well, except if you add together all the *best* feats of some of the other superheroes they'd be even more broken and overpowered--that's what tends to happen when you have various different writers handling a character who can't agree on what he can do, or else write themselves into corners where they have to invent a new power to get him out of the situation which are then completely forgotten about and never referred to again! :smallwink:

[Jayngfet]

Well, except if you add together all the *best* feats of some of the other superheroes they'd be even more broken and overpowered--that's what tends to happen when you have various different writers handling a character who can't agree on what he can do, or else write themselves into corners where they have to invent a new power to get him out of the situation which are then completely forgotten about and never referred to again! :smallwink:

Or, perhaps, some characters really are that good.:smallwink::smallwink::smallwink: I mean Flash is consistently faster than light. A lantern ring is consistently a planetary scale device. Superman can consistently smash planets. The only ones with true inconsistencies are characters like Wonder Woman, who keeps getting beefed up so she can be girl superman in some event then either get depowered or get yet another meaningless powerup.

The Flash is a lightspeed plus hero, end of story. The fact that he fights street crooks doesn't mean they challenge him. The rogues give him a challenge by virtue of also being that good, regularly beating other speedsters or pulling out crazy new techniques to match him. The heaviest hitters of the league are heavy hitters for a reason. Hal, Barry, and Clark by virtue of canon are so powerful and respected that their names become legends for thousands of years even after their deaths, even compared to their nearest equivalents, their symbols plastered everywhere from here to the far side of the universe.

It's not just brute force or raw numbers that make them good, but their skill that's basically peerless, save perhaps for one other person each(Wally in Barrys case). Even if someone else manages to get ahold of super speed, they usually aren't as good with it, and for a reason.

[Kitten Champion]

I have to say, given what I've learnt about DC heroes in this forum and elsewhere, I'm quite impressed with the DCAU cartoons. Everyone's still impressive, but without being insultingly so. I didn't question why Wally West wasn't solving all their problems instantaneously, and why the hell Gotham was still a dump.

I guess that's what happens when you've got a cohesive creative vision for your whole fictional universe, the pieces fit together more self-assuredly and competently. It's a shame they didn't have similar organization with regards to their reboot or I'd might have gotten into their comics.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Here's him destroying the Anti Monitor's Armor (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114806/3707117-2657489924-33142.jpg) a feat that the rest of the DC universe /together/ couldn't complete back in the Silver Age. This is all the Supermen of The Silver Age working in tandem, every Lantern, all the surviving members of alternate earths across INFINITY. Yeah those guys who were /faster than infinity/ couldn't manage the task.

Not a one could accomplish the task that Barry Allen did that day.

Super Girl destroyed the Anti Monitor's armour too.

[Shinken]

Barry is an energy absorber. He can just take all the kinetic energy out of bullets and use it for himself. Given Barry's other abilities let him manipulate the landscape better he still wins.

Likewise, the telepath or warper has to be able to think faster than he can move, which is very nearly lightspeed. Picking out an experienced target that fast is basically impossible for a human brain that isn't heavily augmented to handle. You've got an attosecond to launch your attack, and not a moment longer.

Invulnerability may work, but something in the neighborhood of an infinite mass punch would just leave you sunk a mile underground anyway while flash just vibrates his way to the surface. An inelegant solution, but it'd effectively allow him to "win". Even otherwise, that's not really "beating" the flash since you can't exactly counterattack unless you assume a scientist is dumb enough to wear himself out then collapse in front of you.

Against someone invulnerable, Flash could just grab them, run into the Speed Force, leave them there and come back.
EDIT: Of course, no one is really invulnerable in comics anyway, just highly resistant. Considering the Flash can deal inifinte damage...

[Tyrant]

Against someone invulnerable, Flash could just grab them, run into the Speed Force, leave them there and come back.
EDIT: Of course, no one is really invulnerable in comics anyway, just highly resistant. Considering the Flash can deal inifinte damage...
Didn't they try that, or something similar, with Superboy Prime and have it not really work out too well for them?

[Fan]

Super Girl destroyed the Anti Monitor's armour too.

She destroyed his life shell, not the armor proper.

There is a difference in regards to that.

With the Life Shell Superman and his Earth 2 counter part were able to do considerable damage, if not break it out right, and Supergirl knowingly allowed herself to be KILLED to accomplish that task via ignoring the damage she was taking through sheer force of will in order to get enough hits in to do so.

It was a heroic sacrifice where she gave her own life to be able to deal that much damage. The reason no one else did wasn't because she was stronger than them but because they wanted to get home alive AND win. She was just willing to pay the ultimate price. It literally says as she goes in to do so "She knows full well that the force that hurt her powerful cousin could destroy her, but her concerns are not for herself, but for those she loves."

Superboy Prime got out of The Speed Force thanks to being helped by the Anti Monitor and getting the armor that beefed him up to allow him to take pretty much everyone on at once.

[Shinken]

Didn't they try that, or something similar, with Superboy Prime and have it not really work out too well for them?

Wasn't that how they defeated him?

[Mordar]

Wasn't that how they defeated him?

...and then he punched reality.

Fer realz.

[Metahuman1]

...and then he punched reality.

Fer realz.

And we've regretted it every since, for had it not happened, Jason Todd would STILL be dead and Batman's Canon would be better off for it.

[Fan]

And we've regretted it every since, for had it not happened, Jason Todd would STILL be dead and Batman's Canon would be better off for it.

Batman's current canon is garbage.

I remember the days of yore, when Killing Joke was still canon and things were much better for him.

Then we got his Allstar Book and all became despair.

Thanks Frank Millar.

[Metahuman1]

Batman's Canon is hurting more then it should be, but it is not Garbage. Anything involving Jason Todd that wasn't either prior too/about him being dead were in he is still dead, or the initial reveal of "yeah, I'm back and now I'm evil" has been Garbage. The way they've treated Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain has been Garbage. The manner in which they got Barbara out of the chair while not saying she was never it in was Garbage.

The rest? Not so much. This is more thanks to the talents of people like Grant Morrison and Gail Simone then anything else though.

And no, sadly, Frank miller can't be blamed for this as he didn't write much of anything in the new 52 that I'm aware of. Though yes, Dark Knight Strikes Again and Allstar Crazy Steve and **** Grayson Age 12 are an insult to comic books, Batman, and Comicbooks about Batman.



Billy Bastion's Canon otoh......

[Jayngfet]

Batman's Canon is hurting more then it should be, but it is not Garbage. Anything involving Jason Todd that wasn't either prior too/about him being dead were in he is still dead, or the initial reveal of "yeah, I'm back and now I'm evil" has been Garbage. The way they've treated Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain has been Garbage. The manner in which they got Barbara out of the chair while not saying she was never it in was Garbage.

The rest? Not so much. This is more thanks to the talents of people like Grant Morrison and Gail Simone then anything else though.

And no, sadly, Frank miller can't be blamed for this as he didn't write much of anything in the new 52 that I'm aware of. Though yes, Dark Knight Strikes Again and Allstar Crazy Steve and **** Grayson Age 12 are an insult to comic books, Batman, and Comicbooks about Batman.



Billy Bastion's Canon otoh......

Lets not be so quick to absolve Gail Simone of sin here. She is the one who handled Barbra Gordon after all. Likewise, I'm not so quick to absolve her of The Movement, which reads like a report on 4chan circa 2007.

[Metahuman1]

She also had lot's of bad executive/editorial mandates she had to jump through and a lesser writer would have made Batgirl's entire title utterly unreadable in all probability.

And note, she's not the only author I mentioned either here, nor are her titles exclusively the good one's from DC, though they are part of a steadily shrinking list form were I'm sitting.

[MLai]

But wait, Under The Red Hood was one of the best DCAU movies I've ever seen. Isn't it directly based on the comics events? How can you hate Jason Todd so much when the cartoon was so good?

[Shinken]

But wait, Under The Red Hood was one of the best DCAU movies I've ever seen. Isn't it directly based on the comics events? How can you hate Jason Todd so much when the cartoon was so good?

Maybe he didn't see the movie, I don't know. Jason Todd after coming back is a different character in every comic he is in anyway.

[Traab]

I mean in a one on one fight where both are physically fit (anyone could stab him in his sleep or something). I've lost interest in Flash stories after Mark Waid's masterpiece Terminal Velocity. It's very good, specially because it gives you a reson why Flash isn't running at full speed all the time - he fears being dragged into the Speed Force. At the end, though, Flash is just ridiculously powerful, being able to lend his speed to others while being faster than ever.
Aside from Reverse Flash, I can't think of anyone even close to being comparable to him. It's a big problem with speedsters in comics, something I've seen writers complain about specially in team books - it's just too powerful to be challenged. It's like Kid Flash in the Teen Titans cartoon - he does whatever he wants, when he wants and there is nothing you can do about it.
Sometimes writers use sneak attacks to catch speedsters off guard (Deathstroke shot Impulse in the knee using such a tactic), but that's simply bad writing - we have been told several times their reaction time is ridiculous (specially this new femtosecond nonsense with Barry), Bart should be able to listen the shot being fired then dodging it.
My question is - how can you challenge the Flash in an actual fight without resorting to bad writing or retcons?

Not sure if this is covered but, many guns are supersonic, meaning they hit you before the sound reaches you. So your reaction starts after you take a bullet wound already. And thats just regular real guns, god knows what the weapons in dcu are capable of.

*EDIT* Ok, so guns were mentioned, sue me. As far as the flash goes, I dont read his comics, but you want to know what he sounds like to me? Like writers actually sat down and played what if games with his established power set and actually considered all the unintended consequences of his powers. What I mean is, we here like to argue about powers and what a character could do with them right? like take harry potter and that freaking time turner, everyone who has thought about it has probably come up with a half dozen ways they could have ended the whole voldemort issue easily using that thing. The problem is, the writer generally doesnt. They come out with, "Ok, the power will do this to beat the bad guy" then leaves it at that, while we go, "If it could do THIS then THAT would also be possible." Since the flash has one base power, "He is really really fast" writers are able to play around with that and do all this whacky shenanigan type nonsense.

"Why doesnt everything he touch disintegrate when he grabs someone traveling at light speed?"

"Oh, speed force, it protects them."

"Ok then, that means he could do x,y, and z"

"True, but that means he is also capable of doing this."

repeat forever as the flash is able to use speed to basically counter everything forever. You could probably do the same thing with superman or any other hero, but because he has such a wide list of varied powers, it would take an insanely long time to break them all down to their various elements and come up with the billion ways every different power makes him god, and not just the whole package. Im sure if I tried hard enough, I could justify superman using his freezing breath to halt the speed force itself because of scan xyz where it was so powerful it was basically exhale able entropy.

[Metahuman1]

But wait, Under The Red Hood was one of the best DCAU movies I've ever seen. Isn't it directly based on the comics events? How can you hate Jason Todd so much when the cartoon was so good?

3 reasons.

1: They made a major change form the comic books to the movie. In the movie, Ra's did something that in hind sight offended his honor and couldn't let it stand so he tried to make it right. This made sense.

In the comic book, Super Boy Prime, a character everyone hates, punched reality in the face and it spat out not dead Jason Todd. You read that right. This isn't even "So awesome we don't care about the stupid." it's just "stupid.".

2: Jason Todd was a rare case were there were more and better stories to be told in his death then his life. His death gave us character growth for Batman and Nightwing, a reminder that there are consequences in this world, even for big name hero's, and that dressing a kid up in a brightly colored costume to fight serial killers and mob bosses wasn't necessarily gonna have a happy ending, and it paved the way for the BEST robin of the bunch, Tim Drake. He's best cause, see 3 for Jason Todd, Stephanie Brown did it for 5 minutes and I maintain she didn't really start coming into her own till she was Batgirl, Carrie Kelly only did it for part of one Graphic Novel that has Miller Taint, Damian didn't get over his own issues in time before he died, and **** didn't come into his own till he was Nightwing. Tim was his own and awesome out the starting gate as Robin.

3: Jason was a jerk before he died, a two bit thug that left you scratching your head as to why Batman was trying to save him in this particular manner. After his initial resurrection, he might have been interesting as a straight up Villain, or if he was played as an Anti-hero outside of Gothem City or other majorly established city in the DCU, but instead, he's gotta be all over the place in Batbooks trying to be a 90's Anti hero who's even more of a jerk and now allowed to maim, cripple, dismember and kill on an impulse. He's had no serious growth since literally coming back form the dead, he's had no smart writing or insights, they brought him back and forgot what they were gonna do with him then. Hell, he could still have redeemed this if he'd been allowed to Kill Joker and bring and end to the Clowns Karma Evasion, but they didn't go that route, so no luck there.

[Shinken]

3 reasons.

1: They made a major change form the comic books to the movie. In the movie, Ra's did something that in hind sight offended his honor and couldn't let it stand so he tried to make it right. This made sense.

In the comic book, Super Boy Prime, a character everyone hates, punched reality in the face and it spat out not dead Jason Todd. You read that right. This isn't even "So awesome we don't care about the stupid." it's just "stupid.".
You know this is not the case since New 52, right?


2: Jason Todd was a rare case were there were more and better stories to be told in his death then his life. His death gave us character growth for Batman and Nightwing, a reminder that there are consequences in this world, even for big name hero's, and that dressing a kid up in a brightly colored costume to fight serial killers and mob bosses wasn't necessarily gonna have a happy ending, and it paved the way for the BEST robin of the bunch, Tim Drake. He's best cause, see 3 for Jason Todd, Stephanie Brown did it for 5 minutes and I maintain she didn't really start coming into her own till she was Batgirl, Carrie Kelly only did it for part of one Graphic Novel that has Miller Taint, Damian didn't get over his own issues in time before he died, and **** didn't come into his own till he was Nightwing. Tim was his own and awesome out the starting gate as Robin.
You're not dissing the Dark Knight Returns, are you? Because it looks like you are.


3: Jason was a jerk before he died, a two bit thug that left you scratching your head as to why Batman was trying to save him in this particular manner. After his initial resurrection, he might have been interesting as a straight up Villain, or if he was played as an Anti-hero outside of Gothem City or other majorly established city in the DCU, but instead, he's gotta be all over the place in Batbooks trying to be a 90's Anti hero who's even more of a jerk and now allowed to maim, cripple, dismember and kill on an impulse. He's had no serious growth since literally coming back form the dead, he's had no smart writing or insights, they brought him back and forgot what they were gonna do with him then. Hell, he could still have redeemed this if he'd been allowed to Kill Joker and bring and end to the Clowns Karma Evasion, but they didn't go that route, so no luck there.
I'm not a fan of Jason, but you're wrong here. He had plenty of character development. In fact, your description of him does not come even close tot he way he is portrayed in his own title or thw way he was protrayed (as a villain) in Batman & Robin.

[Closet_Skeleton]

3: Jason was a jerk before he died, a two bit thug that left you scratching your head as to why Batman was trying to save him in this particular manner.

Just as often he was identical to how **** had been as Robin. Which is usually put down to the writers not caring that he was supposed to be a different character so those stories are ignored when evaluating Jason's personality which make him even more of a jerk since you're focusing on the stories where he was a problem child.

Those 'problem child' stories were written as an attempt to differentiate Jason from **** in the first place and ****, being a 1940s character was pretty flat as Robin so making him 'less perfect' probably sounded like a good way to make a 'modern Robin' at the time.

The problem is that 'angstier less perfect Robin' is a terrible idea since Robin's role (his original one, not his Teen Titans/Young Justice one or his less justifiable solo one) is to be Batman's brightly coloured sidekick and therefore needs to be a complementing character to an already angsty super hero. 'Psychopath Robin' only works if you say, replace Bruce with **** in the Batman costume.

[Jayngfet]

The problem is that 'angstier less perfect Robin' is a terrible idea since Robin's role (his original one, not his Teen Titans/Young Justice one or his less justifiable solo one) is to be Batman's brightly coloured sidekick and therefore needs to be a complementing character to an already angsty super hero. 'Psychopath Robin' only works if you say, replace Bruce with **** in the Batman costume.


It could work, hypothetically. If **** had wound up softening Bruce to a significant degree and he wasn't dealing with high body counts every other week there could be room for development.

But sadly, Jason is largely a product of the 70's and 80's, when comics had just rediscovered how to kill people and thus began the(unending) trend of killing off as many random extras as possible to show off how tough the Joker is.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It could work, hypothetically. If **** had wound up softening Bruce to a significant degree and he wasn't dealing with high body counts every other week there could be room for development.

Bruce Wayne is immune to character development (Clark Kent on the other hand is not, but only in the limited scope of marrying Lois). It just wouldn't be possible outside of an Elseworld (or a prequel but that's been done and done).

Which is a shame because the only actual versions of Bruce I like are the older alternate universe versions of him in Kingdom Come and Batman Beyond (DKR Bruce is also evidence for 'old man Bruce is cooler' but ain't likable).

Jason Todd growing up to get over his personality problems could have been an okay story but killing him is kind of like admitting that he could never have gotten better even if he'd lived.

[Shinken]

Jason Todd growing up to get over his personality problems could have been an okay story but killing him is kind of like admitting that he could never have gotten better even if he'd lived.
But but but but that's exactly what happened.

[Metahuman1]

You know this is not the case since New 52, right?


You're not dissing the Dark Knight Returns, are you? Because it looks like you are.


I'm not a fan of Jason, but you're wrong here. He had plenty of character development. In fact, your description of him does not come even close tot he way he is portrayed in his own title or thw way he was protrayed (as a villain) in Batman & Robin.

Look up Linkara's reveiw of Red Hood and the Outlaws Number 1. He rather succsinctly lays out why after issue 1 I was unwilling to spend a cent on anything DC was doing with any of the three designated protagonists.

No, I'm dissing on Frank Miller, the man who wrote The Dark Knight Returns. Dark Knigth Returns was a good book, but Carrie didn'lt get the screen time there needed to put her in serious contention for best robin slot. And the only other time We've seen her to my knowledge was the dark knight strikes again, which was horrible because by that point miller wasn't an artist with a thing you might or might not care for, he was just nuts.

Yes, he developed form a kid with a thugish streak to a potentially extreamly interesting Anti-hero breaking from the Bat family mold, or a potentially extreamly interesting additon to Batmans rouges gallery, to a bad generic early 90's angsty Anti-hero after his inital resurection storyline was wrapped up. And they've not gotten better since.

As for a differnt take on Robin, Both Tim Drake and Damian Wayne did it far, far better, and in two very different manners form either **** or each other.



Edit: Oh, and I forgot one other beef I've got with Jason. Because the Writers got away with making him a villian/kills-at-drop-of-hat-anti-hero, they spent years trying desperatly to get away with making Cassandra Cain, a character who was already very interesting in her own right that I was quite fond of, be the female version of him, much to my rage. It doesn't help that he get's picked up right off the bat for the New 52 and gives us Red Hood and the Outlaws, and her backstory had to be totally wiped so they could bring her in as a blank slate in order to make room for there favorites to be at the launch while we meet her like 3 years into this mess. And Given that the Tim Drake in the New 52 is an Insult to the pre New 52 version, I doubt there gonna manage to make this work for her or stephanie brown cause they hate those three pretty equally for not being ****, Jason, Barbara and Damian.

[Fan]

You know this is not the case since New 52, right?


You're not dissing the Dark Knight Returns, are you? Because it looks like you are.


I'm not a fan of Jason, but you're wrong here. He had plenty of character development. In fact, your description of him does not come even close tot he way he is portrayed in his own title or thw way he was protrayed (as a villain) in Batman & Robin.

I'll diss Dark Knight Returns and Sin City.

People over hype this works as classics, but they're still objectively terrible screams of Frank Millar's own political beliefs using beloved characters, warping them for his intent and creating monsters who barely resemble the excellent characters he had to work with.

If it was possible to commit literary murder, he is at least partly responsible for the dark age of comics, and the curreny train of hyper grit that we're experiencing with Damian Wayne in New 52 through his influences on the medium, and this makes him guilty of killing several character's who were once extremely good.

The man is also a horrific misogynist, an insane monster who's against gay rights period, and an all around bag of *****.

Frank Millar gets a -10/10, he is to writing what Rob Liefeld is to art in comics.

[Kitten Champion]

All I can say is that the 80's must have really sucked if crazy billionaire white dude angrily punching his way through urban crime was considered profound. I would think it was supposed to be ironic, but knowing Miller it really just seemed like pseudo-fascist wish fulfillment to me.

[Shinken]

Look up Linkara's reveiw of Red Hood and the Outlaws Number 1. He rather succsinctly lays out why after issue 1 I was unwilling to spend a cent on anything DC was doing with any of the three designated protagonists.
It is a very bad issue, but you not knowing about something does not mean it not happened. :smalltongue:
I stopeed respecting Linkara when he badmouthed Amazing Fantasy #15 anyway...


No, I'm dissing on Frank Miller, the man who wrote The Dark Knight Returns. Dark Knigth Returns was a good book, but Carrie didn'lt get the screen time there needed to put her in serious contention for best robin slot. And the only other time We've seen her to my knowledge was the dark knight strikes again, which was horrible because by that point miller wasn't an artist with a thing you might or might not care for, he was just nuts.
Ah, OK. I just don't get it why people dismiss Miller's 80s work just because today the man has gone insane.


Yes, he developed form a kid with a thugish streak to a potentially extreamly interesting Anti-hero breaking from the Bat family mold, or a potentially extreamly interesting additon to Batmans rouges gallery, to a bad generic early 90's angsty Anti-hero after his inital resurection storyline was wrapped up. And they've not gotten better since.
You aren't even reading. How could you know?


I'll diss Dark Knight Returns and Sin City.

People over hype this works as classics, but they're still objectively terrible screams of Frank Millar's own political beliefs using beloved characters, warping them for his intent and creating monsters who barely resemble the excellent characters he had to work with.

If it was possible to commit literary murder, he is at least partly responsible for the dark age of comics, and the curreny train of hyper grit that we're experiencing with Damian Wayne in New 52 through his influences on the medium, and this makes him guilty of killing several character's who were once extremely good.

The man is also a horrific misogynist, an insane monster who's against gay rights period, and an all around bag of *****.

Frank Millar gets a -10/10, he is to writing what Rob Liefeld is to art in comics.
Frank Millar doesn't exist. It's Frank Miller.
Miller's writing is really good. He composes scenes wells and gives each character a very distinct voice . His Daredevil run is superb and would be the character's most defining moment if Mark Waid wasn't such a genius. Your criticism to Sin City makes no sense. The iron age was already well underway when it was published, he doesn't use any stablished characters
Miller is a jerk and his more recent work simply stinks, but if you're dismissing his 80s work because of that, you're just wrong. You have all the right in the world to not buy any of it because you don't agree with his crazy political ideals or something, but that does not make his work objectively bad.
Also, bashing Liefeld is just tired. Don't pretend that the mean didn't have any good work. His New Mutants run is actually good. Also, Liefeld is handicapped.

[MLai]

Frank Miller's writing is really good. Miller is a jerk and his more recent work simply stinks, but if you're dismissing his 80s work because of that, you're just wrong.
Don't worry you're not alone.
If Miller wasn't an objectively good writer/artist making an objectively good graphic novel TDKR, the book wouldn't be consider unanimously worthy, by casuals and critics alike. Random posters can say whatever they like, but it's 2 opinions vs 200 million. Contrary to belief, readers in the 80's weren't objectively stupid.


Also, Liefeld is handicapped.
Wait really?
So he draws with his feet or something?

[Fan]

Frank Millar doesn't exist. It's Frank Miller.
Miller's writing is really good. He composes scenes wells and gives each character a very distinct voice . His Daredevil run is superb and would be the character's most defining moment if Mark Waid wasn't such a genius. Your criticism to Sin City makes no sense. The iron age was already well underway when it was published, he doesn't use any stablished characters
Miller is a jerk and his more recent work simply stinks, but if you're dismissing his 80s work because of that, you're just wrong. You have all the right in the world to not buy any of it because you don't agree with his crazy political ideals or something, but that does not make his work objectively bad.
Also, bashing Liefeld is just tired. Don't pretend that the mean didn't have any good work. His New Mutants run is actually good. Also, Liefeld is handicapped.

I don't like Daredevil, so I haven't read any of that. It's a conscious choice based on his concept and exposure to a few seperate arcs.

However, Sin City was terrible. It wasn't original, it wasn't anything new. It was just Ultra Violence taken an extreme in an already established medium of film noir.

It's hailed as ground breaking, but it wasn't. It's hailed as revolutionary when it wasn't. The writing is trite, the female characters are literally all sex objects who exist to do nothing more than stroke egos or be saved.

I am not a social justice guy, I routinely lobby against these people because I believe their views are incorrect on a lot of things.

However, Frank Miller is hailed as a genius for his 80's work because they saw it as some sort of literary masterpiece when the writing was garbage.

The Dark Knight Returns was essentially a man constantly screaming BIG GOVERNMENT IS BAD BIG GOVERNMENT IS BAD BIG GOVERNMENT IS BAD. They literally use the too big to fail analogy with Batman. It is turning a great character into a political mouth piece. How people can like it when it butchers every other character involved except for the Robin is beyond me, and the only reason it doesn't butcher Robin is because it's a wholly original character.

Also Liefeld's handicap doesn't make him immune to criticism, if you expect to be taken seriously as a professional you don't get a free pass when there are other people vying for the same jobs and positions. You don't magically get to be in the same business as more talented and available people because your body isn't able to keep up with them. It's like saying that because a person's test scores are lower because of their dyslexia that they should still be allowed to be a codebreaker when they can't work past their disability. Liefeld's art is bad, that is the comparison I was making, and it's bad because it is. Regardless of his disability that is completely irrelevant.

[SowZ]

Apparently, with moderate super-human reflexes, intelligence, and enough skill, it is possible for a mortal to defeat the Flash. It has been demonstrated in DCU that both the Green Arrow and Slade are capable of hitting the Flash, (with an arrow and a sword, respectively.) I think that is patently absurd, and past a certain power level all the skill in the world should not enable you to harm that super, but the DCU is filled with logical contradictions. So even people who have no business tangling with the Flash can pose a challenge to him. Once again proving Stan Lee's point that any hero can beat any other hero, because comics are written based on narratives not power levels.


I don't like Daredevil, so I haven't read any of that. It's a conscious choice based on his concept and exposure to a few seperate arcs.

However, Sin City was terrible. It wasn't original, it wasn't anything new. It was just Ultra Violence taken an extreme in an already established medium of film noir.

It's hailed as ground breaking, but it wasn't. It's hailed as revolutionary when it wasn't. The writing is trite, the female characters are literally all sex objects who exist to do nothing more than stroke egos or be saved.

I am not a social justice guy, I routinely lobby against these people because I believe their views are incorrect on a lot of things.

However, Frank Miller is hailed as a genius for his 80's work because they saw it as some sort of literary masterpiece when the writing was garbage.

The Dark Knight Returns was essentially a man constantly screaming BIG GOVERNMENT IS BAD BIG GOVERNMENT IS BAD BIG GOVERNMENT IS BAD. They literally use the too big to fail analogy with Batman. It is turning a great character into a political mouth piece. How people can like it when it butchers every other character involved except for the Robin is beyond me, and the only reason it doesn't butcher Robin is because it's a wholly original character.

Also Liefeld's handicap doesn't make him immune to criticism, if you expect to be taken seriously as a professional you don't get a free pass when there are other people vying for the same jobs and positions. You don't magically get to be in the same business as more talented and available people because your body isn't able to keep up with them. It's like saying that because a person's test scores are lower because of their dyslexia that they should still be allowed to be a codebreaker when they can't work past their disability. Liefeld's art is bad, that is the comparison I was making, and it's bad because it is. Regardless of his disability that is completely irrelevant.

What? The detractors of Batmanin DKR are proven to be right in that series. Bruce does as much if not more damage than he prevents, he creates his villains, and Batman is almost as psychotic as his villains. That is the character portrayed in DKR. DKSA, however...

[Kitten Champion]

I've never read Sin City, but I enjoyed his run on Daredevil. I don't think the writing in The Dark Knight Returns was necessarily bad, but the overall message was something I found absolutely repellent.

If I've learnt anything from reading him, Miller woefully needs an editor.

[SowZ]

I've never read Sin City, but I enjoyed his run on Daredevil. I don't think the writing in The Dark Knight Returns was necessarily bad, but the overall message was something I found absolutely repellent.

If I've learnt anything from reading him, Miller woefully needs an editor.

What did you hate about the message? The actual message was the opposite of the surface message. The whole thing, like Watchmen, was a critique and deconstruction of the superhero genre. Not saying it did quite as well as Watchmen, but not being as good as Watchmen is hardly an insult.

[Kitten Champion]

What did you hate about the message? The actual message was the opposite of the surface message. The whole thing, like Watchmen, was a critique and deconstruction of the superhero genre. Not saying it did quite as well as Watchmen, but not being as good as Watchmen is hardly an insult.

I don't think it is. Considering Miller's repeated salutes to Fascism and general political perspective, that it's supposed to be ironic seems less and less likely. His shots at everyone left it feeling absurdly misanthropic and Batman being this paternalistic violence-loving icon people need is BS.

[SowZ]

I don't think it is. Considering Miller's repeated salutes to Fascism and general political perspective, that it's supposed to be ironic seems less and less likely. His shots at everyone left it feeling absurdly misanthropic and Batman being this paternalistic violence-loving icon people need is BS.

But inside the work itself, all of Batman's detractors are proven correct. Batman really does create his villains. His coming back to fight the gang problem actually does reawaken a docile Joker. Batman's own soldiers are rapists and murders and unleashing them on Gotham creates almost as much havoc as it solves. The older Bruce gets, the younger and younger his Robin's become and Batman becomes incapable of viewing them as their real identity. He merges the Robins into one person in his head. Alfred even calls Batman out on this and since when is Alfred ever wrong?

Batman almost admits the only difference between him and his villains is that he doesn't kill, otherwise he is just as sick and puts on a costume and attacks people. The guy is almost suicidal, too, at the point in his life where he actively seeks a good death. When you are that close to the line of life and death, it usually amplifies any psychosis you have.

Bruce hears voices in his head and sees things. He even half admits once or twice that the city is better off without him, but he is incapable of not being Batman. It is clear, I think, that Batman is Batman for his own sake, not Gotham, and that he is totally psychotic. And Miller knows that, too. Almost everything I point out here is pointed out by someone in the book, too, so Frank is aware of all this.

We tend to side with Batman in the books, and say, "Hey, screw you douchey psychologist guy!" when Batman is criticized and we hail Jim Gordon and not the new, anti-Bats commissioner. But it is intentional emotional manipulation on Frank's part. We side with Batman, then the story destroys our image of him. It is like how we side with the main character in 'I Am Legend' only to realize at the end we have been rooting for the villain all along. A very effective strategy. It is why DKR is widely acknowledged by critics as a deconstruction of the super heroes genre. There is a reason it is considered in the same spiritual vein as Watchmen, (even though I have to give the nod to Watchmen here. DKR is still good, though.)

One of the most reasonable and competent people is the female police commissioner, who uses logic/well reasoned arguments to destroy Batman's chosen path to combat crime and deconstructs the Batman pretty well.

The only time Batman 'wins' and it is a plus is after the nukes drop, which I interpret as an intentional dig at Batman's world view. It states that his philosophy only works in a post apocalyptic setting. It basically says that Batman, and other vigilantes like him, have no place in an actual functioning society. The government is shown to be pretty incompetent, too, but that is standard fair in fiction and real life.

Frank's worlds are often sexist, fascistic, and everything you accuse it of and on the surface, they seem to glorify those things. But I think Miller is very self aware. He is intentionally representing the whole medium in a way that takes the assumptions of comic book worlds to their natural conclusions, turns it up to 11, and gives it a glamour coat to make the whole thing feel creepy and uncomfortable. He isn't quite a satirist, and it is clear to some degree he does revel in the ridiculous underpinnings of the genre and he enjoys the aesthetic/types of stories that can be told there, but that doesn't mean he isn't self aware. Some of his critiques of comic books within his comic books are far too poignant to be accidental.

Lots of people took the groundwork DKR and a few other books laid and ran with it, any hint of satire going over their heads and we had this whole 90s decade where comics were all trying to outdo each other with 'who could be more grimdark' and bloody and nihilistic for cynicism sake. DKR wasn't doing that, though, it was more pointed. It is possible that Frank has come to agree with Batman more as he ages, but DKR is not a propaganda piece for Bruce. It started a whole wave of people thinking critically about how nutso their heroes actually are.

Frank Miller can't be taken totally seriously. His works, while definite dramas, are still not dead serious. There is snark to it. And even if Frank's personal views lean more towards a political side that may agree with Batman's tactics, that doesn't mean he doesn't realize how absurd the whole thing, (and human society in general,) is and dissects the comic book universe. Frank's worlds are cynical, though. Cynical enough that I doubt Miller even believes his own political philosophies would work in the real world, (because nothing ever works long term in Miller world,) and I agree with him. No political system or even lack of a system can really work, because they are run by people, but Batman's answer? Shape the world into how I want it by force and attack my enemies by punching them over and over? That's clearly not the response of a sane person. It is an insane response to an insane world. And I think Miller knows it.

[Fan]

Apparently, with moderate super-human reflexes, intelligence, and enough skill, it is possible for a mortal to defeat the Flash. It has been demonstrated in DCU that both the Green Arrow and Slade are capable of hitting the Flash, (with an arrow and a sword, respectively.) I think that is patently absurd, and past a certain power level all the skill in the world should not enable you to harm that super, but the DCU is filled with logical contradictions. So even people who have no business tangling with the Flash can pose a challenge to him. Once again proving Stan Lee's point that any hero can beat any other hero, because comics are written based on narratives not power levels.



What? The detractors of Batmanin DKR are proven to be right in that series. Bruce does as much if not more damage than he prevents, he creates his villains, and Batman is almost as psychotic as his villains. That is the character portrayed in DKR. DKSA, however...

Please explain how they are proven right, the Anti Bats Commissioner was the one who said the too big to fail line. Superman is made to acknolwedge that Bruce's methods are the only right ones and that he has to work with him, the sons of Batman end up becoming an underground crime fighting organization that fights against the totally evil big government that is ruining everything and literally enslaving all the old super heroes.

TDKSA wasn't that long ago, it was in 2002.

Millar hasn't changed at all, he's the same awful person he's always been, and if he has changed it has been to become more awful.

[MLai]

Thank you, SowZ.

At least someone around here has the sense to separate the author from the good work he produced once upon a time. Otherwise we should all just go ahead and burn Star Wars IV-VI.

[Closet_Skeleton]

evil big government that is ruining everything and literally enslaving all the old super heroes.

How is 'oppose big government' fascist? Fascism is all about government being the only power. Fascists are generally okay with their own vigilante actions (when they aren't in power) but are against the idea of individuals opposing the government.



At least someone around here has the sense to separate the author from the good work he produced once upon a time. Otherwise we should all just go ahead and burn Star Wars IV-VI.

I don't think George Lucas changed politically or ideologically at all. He was always a bad director, he just got way too much control over the prequels (something that ruins even good directors like Alfred Hitchcock and seems to have affected J. Cameron and R. Scott pretty badly too). He's not like Steven Spielberg who really seems to have lost his touch completely. Lucas' basic problem is that he's always wanted to make **** movies and has only really cared about special effects. Lucas vision for Star Wars was to recreate the films from his child hood that he really enjoyed but knew weren't very good. Quality was simply never an aspiration for him and some degree badness was a sign of success.

[Traab]

As far as the original topic is concerned, im sure many of the high end heavy hitters of the DCU could beat flash in a fight. Yes flash has all sorts of obscene and twisted applications of his powers, but that doesnt stop someone else from creating their own obscene twist in return. Its not exactly an uncommon theme after all, for a character to magically develop a new way to use his or her power to overcome a supposedly unbeatable foe. The real problem is coming up with a winning solution that isnt chess mastered away. "Ah but if so and so tried that, all flash has to do is THIS!" And in the end we wind up with a counter to the countering counter I countered your counter with when you tried to counter the counter counter of my counter! In other words, flash is batman and always has the perfect way to defeat everyone ready to use at all times and so can never be stopped. But then flash fights batman and the impact of two perfectly prepared for everything opponents reboots the dcu AGAIN!

[LordShotGun]

Logic.....


Comic book heroes.....


I can hear the dying cat girls from here!!!


PLEASE! THINK OF THE CAT GIRLS!!!

[Metahuman1]

Such as Superman using Kryptonian science or Green Lantern using his ring or Wonder Woman getting a favor cashed in form some god in a different pantheon then she normally deals with to shut down the Speed force inside a specified area to make him beatable. It's exactly the sort of thing I could see happening.


Anyway, I'm sorry you don't respect him. Tell me, is Roy Harper a functional single father and Starfire an intelligent mature competent person who isn't all about sex all the time yet? Till that happens I don't care how many things there doing with Darling Jason.

Ok, Miller.

Daredevil: He had a solid run, and yes, this likely would be the definitive run to this day if not for Mark Waid.

Dark Knight Returns/Batman Year One: Fairly good stories, a story about an old warrior coming out of retirement for one last go against evil/a man beginning his fight against evil in Ernest. Not the greatest thing ever written but good. Oh, and yes, I am aware of the treatment of Superman in DKR and Selena Kyle in both, and yes, that actually is costing it points. Read Justice League: The New Frontier for superman toes government line done right

300: Mediocre, not horrible, but it's really all style and no substance.

Sin City: Dark, Noired, Stylized. Yes, Women aren't always treated wonderfully in this setting, but I'd like to point out the most lethal person in the city is consistently the enforcer form old town who doesn't even need a gun and stands less then 5ft tall weighting barely 100lbs if that, Miho. And another woman, an assassin, Code Name Blue Eyes, is easily in the top 3. It's not as bad as your making out fan. Particularly in light of even more stupidly Grim Dark things being wildly popular today, such as The Walking Dead or in the anime/manga world Attack on Titan.

Movie versions of the last two: This worked not cause of miller but because of Robert Rodriguez and Quentin Tarantino.

Everything else he's ever touched: God awful trash not worth the paper it was printed on.



And if it helps Fan, All Star Superman, What's Wrong With Truth Justice And The American Way, 3rd Blue Beetle, Powergirl Solo Run, Justice League The New Frontier and Kingdom Come all blow pretty much everything miller did out of the water with the exception of being about 33% responsible for getting adam wests batman out of the public mind as the way batman is. I Wish someone would do that for Aquaman. I'm sick of the all the powers of sponge bob jokes.

[TeChameleon]

I'm not sure it's possible to give Aquaman the Dark Knight Returns treatment. I'm fairly certain that part of the reason DKR worked so well, and broke out of the comic book ghetto to the degree that it did, is for the same reason that Star Wars managed to escape the SciFi-only demographic; the story it told could have been told in any number of settings with very few changes in terms of plot.

For example, it could just as easily have been an aging imperial Samurai coming out of hiding to once again oppose the Shogunate in Edo period Japan. Or the old Sheriff riding the range one last time to stave off the Westward march of the corrupt Eastern land barons and their hired thugs in the US' Wild West. Any time period with notable unrest, a government system either unwilling or unable to deal with that, and an iconic warrior figure to combat it could tell pretty much the same story without needing very much rewriting.

Aquaman, on the other hand, simply can't be jammed into as many genres as the Batman. For one, he's got the (typical of many early DC characters) torn-between-two-worlds syndrome, with Atlantis and 'the surface world' (read 'America, especially the Eastern Seaboard'). Then there's the fact that him being royalty is part of his very character concept. Add in him being a strongly maritime-themed hero, and he's rather more difficult to write purely archetypical plots for, at least if you want to do the character any kind of justice. Add in the Superfriends stigma, gimmicky villains with stupid names and wildly inconsistent characterization ('the Fisherman'? Really?) making up very nearly his entire rogues' gallery, and the difficulty of making him the protector of the oceans without him coming off as some kind of eco-terrorist, and you've got a recipe for quiet obscurity.

More on-topic, applying logic, even comic book logic, to the Flash is just asking for a headache. The more esoteric uses of his powers tend to be a bizarre mix of embracing physics and ignoring them as hard as possible at the same time, whether or not his powers are affected by physics at all is erratic at best, and the question of how, exactly, his perceptions and nervous system work is one that is best not thought about too hard.

Narratively speaking, though, it's entirely possible for a character to beat the Flash. He comes from a strange era in comics, where the transition from 'Mystery Man' to 'Superhero' wasn't yet complete; that's why so many of his foes are relatively ordinary guys with a gimmick. And yet they manage to be a threat to the fastest man alive. Thinking about that, I found it rather interesting that in the JLU episode someone mentioned earlier ("Flash and Substance", if memory serves), a handful of Flash villains managed to casually school Batman and Orion, the former of whom basically specializes in dismantling guys like them, and the latter of whom can go toe-to-toe with Superman without any trouble. Pretty much implying that a major reason they can make it in Central City is because they're just that good.

But I stand by my earlier statement; it's possible to take the Flash down, largely because he can't be at speed all the time.

[MLai]

Everything else he's ever touched: God awful trash not worth the paper it was printed on.
While this I can agree with, I don't like the judgement you pass on his other, actually good, works: "Okay I admit they're good but they're not the best thing ever."
What is "the best thing ever"? Wizard Of Oz is not the best thing ever. Great Gatsby is not the best thing ever. Pride & Prejudice is not the best thing ever. That qualification means nothing, and is only put forward so you don't have to give Miller straight praise.


And if it helps Fan, All Star Superman, What's Wrong With Truth Justice And The American Way, 3rd Blue Beetle, Powergirl Solo Run, Justice League The New Frontier and Kingdom Come all blow pretty much everything miller did out of the water with the exception of being about 33% responsible for getting adam wests batman out of the public mind as the way batman is. I Wish someone would do that for Aquaman. I'm sick of the all the powers of sponge bob jokes.
None of those comics compares with TDKR. They're merely good comics runs. In terms of cultural influence they do not come close. And I actually read one of those (Kingdom Come), and it bored me to tears. It was... okay? Not transcendant like TDKR.

[Traab]

I dunno, I mean, batman had some really REALLY stupid bad guys show up in his life time. The secret is to ignore calendar man and his ilk, and concentrate on the jokers in his lineup. Combine that with updating the bad guys that could have a decent power set so they are less jokes and more threats and you could have a pared down, but more viable enemy list. After all, lots of bad guys get heavy duty makeovers and can be made to look more badass and intimidating.

[Shinken]

Anyway, I'm sorry you don't respect him. Tell me, is Roy Harper a functional single father and Starfire an intelligent mature competent person who isn't all about sex all the time yet? Till that happens I don't care how many things there doing with Darling Jason.
The Starfire thing is just a front she is using and that has been clear from issue #2. I don't like it, but she is intelligent, competent and not as sexualized as plenty other superheroines.
Also, you have all the right in the world to not care about Jason Todd. You just can't say "they didn't do X" when you don't know what they did because you are not reading. My point is: dislike Jason all you want, but don't say what he is now because you don't know what he is now.


While this I can agree with, I don't like the judgement you pass on his other, actually good, works: "Okay I admit they're good but they're not the best thing ever."
What is "the best thing ever"? Wizard Of Oz is not the best thing ever. Great Gatsby is not the best thing ever. Pride & Prejudice is not the best thing ever. That qualification means nothing, and is only put forward so you don't have to give Miller straight praise.
Agreed.


None of those comics compares with TDKR. They're merely good comics runs. In terms of cultural influence they do not come close. And I actually read one of those (Kingdom Come), and it bored me to tears. It was... okay? Not transcendant like TDKR.
Kingdom Come is awesome. I have no idea how it could bore you, specially with Alex Ross rocking that amazing art of his. I think it is exactly as transcendent as TDKR is: Kingdom Come pretty much killed the Iron Age.
Also, if you haven't read all of those comics, you can't really judge how good they are, can you? Plenty of it are just exaggerations, just overall good comics, but Kingdom Come and All Star Superman are masterpieces.
Of course, All Star Superman is not as historically important as Kingdom Come.
Yet.

[Jayngfet]

The Starfire thing is just a front she is using and that has been clear from issue #2. I don't like it, but she is intelligent, competent and not as sexualized as plenty other superheroines.
Also, you have all the right in the world to not care about Jason Todd. You just can't say "they didn't do X" when you don't know what they did because you are not reading. My point is: dislike Jason all you want, but don't say what he is now because you don't know what he is now.

Personally, the only good thing about New 52 starfire was issues 10-11 of Outlaws. Mostly because it was revealed that Starfire was a civilian disguise to keep her friends safe, and that each night she dons a costume and faces her enemies...

...as commander shepard (http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120614202811/batman/images/0/04/Red_Hood_and_The_Outlaws_Vol_1-10_Cover-1.jpg). It was such a bizarre turn for the character that is somehow managed to work perfectly, simply because the new costume and MO were so different you kind of had to just go with it.

Of course this kind of wound up being abandoned once they wanted to drag the book into yet another bat-crossover, but it was still an ideal example of exactly how the New 52 is supposed to work in theory.

[MLai]

Kingdom Come is awesome. I have no idea how it could bore you, specially with Alex Ross rocking that amazing art of his. I think it is exactly as transcendent as TDKR is: Kingdom Come pretty much killed the Iron Age.
Also, if you haven't read all of those comics, you can't really judge how good they are, can you? Plenty of it are just exaggerations, just overall good comics, but Kingdom Come and All Star Superman are masterpieces..
No. And I'm not just saying that to spite ppl who diss TDKR. Even if TDKR didn't get mentioned, I'd still say I didn't like KC.

The first thing I didn't like was the art. Alex Ross paintings make great cover art, but is horrible for actual comics. My eyes got so tired trying to make out the shapes and colors which all blended together, small panel to small panel. It got especially bad in busy panels/pages. Because there were zero hard lines or heavy contrast, nothing directed the eye across panels/pages, there was no feeling of movement. My brain couldn't just get immersed; it had to struggle to make out the images instead of thinking about the story.

And I won't reply to anyone that says get glasses, okay? My work requires good vision/perception, and I'm fine with that. I'm an artist who likes to draw details, and I'm fine with that. I can use 0.05mm point to ink my pencils, and I'm fine with that.

The story? It doesn't transcend the comics genre like TDKR. When I first read TDKR as a kid, I had never read a single DC comic in my life. The only thing I knew (a little bit) was Superman movies, Adam West Batman, and Wonder Woman TV show. I didn't even know Superman or Batman's names. And I was able to follow the comic, and believe in it. You can't do that with Kingdom Come. I was reading it and the first thing that came to my mind was, "This is a comic book story." WTF was a Spirit-thing superhero doing visiting some elderly nobody? Their dialogue was ridiculously cheesy. Everything was so cheesy.

Something that earns my respect has to be something that makes me like it despite my vitriolic hatred for American comics.

[Jayngfet]

No. And I'm not just saying that to spite ppl who diss TDKR. Even if TDKR didn't get mentioned, I'd still say I didn't like KC.

The first thing I didn't like was the art. Alex Ross paintings make great cover art, but is horrible for actual comics. My eyes got so tired trying to make out the shapes and colors which all blended together, small panel to small panel. It got especially bad in busy panels/pages. Because there were zero hard lines or heavy contrast, nothing directed the eye across panels/pages, there was no feeling of movement. My brain couldn't just get immersed; it had to struggle to make out the images instead of thinking about the story.

And I won't reply to anyone that says get glasses, okay? My work requires good vision/perception, and I'm fine with that. I'm an artist who likes to draw details, and I'm fine with that. I can use 0.05mm point to ink my pencils, and I'm fine with that.

That's an entirely fair criticism, honestly.

What a lot of people don't get is that there's no one blanket solution and you really do need multiple methods for multiple situations. Hence why TV and Theatrical animation had to look so different until recently, besides money: A smaller screen at lower resolution needs clear lines and less ambiguity. It's also why video games need to be so different in comparison to a CGI film. The same obviously holds true for comics, where something with many smaller panels must look different in comparison to something with big splash pages everywhere. Which is especially visible in say, an Archie Comic printed in 5 x 8.5 with 6-8 panels per page and needed to develop a super graphic style as a result.

Kingdom Come is a visual novelty and Alex Ross has artistic merit, that goes without saying, but he's not flawless, because nobody is.

[BWR]

The first thing I didn't like was the art. Alex Ross paintings make great cover art, but is horrible for actual comics. My eyes got so tired trying to make out the shapes and colors which all blended together, small panel to small panel. It got especially bad in busy panels/pages. Because there were zero hard lines or heavy contrast, nothing directed the eye across panels/pages, there was no feeling of movement. My brain couldn't just get immersed; it had to struggle to make out the images instead of thinking about the story.

I was the complete opposite. I enjoyed everything about the art of both KC and 'Justice' and would probably be a bigger fan of comics had more stuff this level of writing and art. I understand why that's not going to happen, but I can dream.

[MLai]

That's an entirely fair criticism, honestly.
Well, okay, you said it in a much less confrontational manner.
Sometimes I just can't stay calm regarding American comics, sorry.

I didn't mention, but I will say that if the comic is anything like the animated feature, then All-Star Superman does IMO transcend comics in a Franz Kafka-esque way. Superman's life events during his last days were so fantastic and out-there (for a comics non-reader who's only familiar with movie Superman), the unrelatable adventures of a space god. However, that absurdity sets up the perfect juxtaposition which rivets the reader's attention on what the story is actually about: The last days of a saintly man as he knowingly journeys towards death with grace and dignity.

[Metahuman1]

MLai: All Star Superman was better then the movie for the simple reason that the movie had to rush in a number of places to try and fit everything in, and the Comic had more time to take it's time and set thing's up/let things play out at a more normal pace.

I'll Concede that Kingdome Come needs you to be rather familiar with most/all the characters too work. That said, the Dark Knight Returns is not praised as a master piece for being a story told many times and in many places, though that is a helpful baseline if you don't follow comics, it's praised as a master piece for being a darker more realistic piece that shocked people out of the image of Burt Ward and Adam West going "Holy Snickies Batman!" "Quickly Robin, The Bat Anti-Rubber Shark Repellant!". It, along with Allen Moore's Killing Joke, The Death in the Family Story arc, the Tim Burton Movie and subsequent Animated series, is what made Batman a thing that you could actually take a little bit seriously for half a moment again instead of just and endless stream of camp jokes. The other thing it has to it's credit is that Along with Watchmen, V for Vendetta, and the other two Batman storyline's listed, brought about the rise of the Iron Age of Comics and the Fall of the Bronze Age. Kingdom Come is a master stroke because it ended that Iron Age, contrary to what some people in the industry seem to think has happened.


Having said all that, as I said, I like Dark Knight Returns as a whole and I liked Year One. My so called bad turn of phrase to avoid giving them straight praise? You got that back words, that was me attempting to be polite in a relatively civil discussion. Rather then, you know, just incohearantly tearing everything he's ever done ever apart by simple virtue of the fact that he did it with out actually reading any of it. The mere fact that after reading The Dark Knight Strikes Again, Holy War, Batman/Spawn and All Star Batman and Robin I'm willing to do that much for the guy and remember that he's done things that, again, while not as sharp about what they were doing as, let's say Watchmen, show's a rather even handed approach I'd say.

Shinken: What character growth beyond "Anti Hero that use to work with Batman, died, came back and now uses guns and bombs and knives and lethal force + what Batman taught him, and get's women while angsting." has he had that didn't bring you right directly back to something in the descriptive statement I just gave? Was it that several year long thing were he and Kyle Reiner were in a love triangle with Donna Troy? Was it that thing from the New 52 were he evidently tried to kill his way to the top of the league of assassin's and pulled it off? Or Was it that time he tried to murder Tim Drake to prove he was better then him at being Robin?

I'm really curious, cause as I said, I see this character and I see so, so much wasted potential in his resurrection after the story arc were it happened and is revealed. And it quite frankly infuriates me that this guy barely got altered at all for the new 52, but all these other much more interesting and better used and developed characters got screwed to make room for people like Jason Todd.

Also, I notice you didn't touch on Roy Harper when you responded to tell me it was all just an Act. Which, BTW, reeks of DC not wanting to really change her behavior that was problematic but attempting to damage control it after that first issue had lot's of people like me throwing it down and never spending a penny on any of the three characters again.

Jang: ... What. ... ... ... Ok, you know what, that could almost, ALMOST could have redeemed the Starfire corner of that little three man band. If this had been kept consistent, an argument could have been made to me that even if Jason and Roy were still people I had zero desire to read about, Starfire was worth supporting the title.

You did however say, unless I misunderstood, that they dropped it after like 2 issues and we've not seen it since, correct?

[Dienekes]

MLai: All Star Superman was better then the movie for the simple reason that the movie had to rush in a number of places to try and fit everything in, and the Comic had more time to take it's time and set thing's up/let things play out at a more normal pace.

I'm going to say, All-Star the comic was better for 99% of it, but the movie handled Luthor's revelation better. And considering that was basically the big climactic moment of the story, it gets a lot of points for that.

[Shinken]

Metahuman, the thing with Jason is that every single issue adds more evidence that the 90s antihero shtick is an act. There is a heartwarming flashback with Batman early on, Jason always helps everyone (specially when he says otherwise), he only keeps the team together because he thinks the others need it. He is a complex character with a lot going on.
Now, I don't even like the Red Hood series. But if there is one thing they did right, it was giving Jason hidden depth.

[Jayngfet]

Jang: ... What. ... ... ... Ok, you know what, that could almost, ALMOST could have redeemed the Starfire corner of that little three man band. If this had been kept consistent, an argument could have been made to me that even if Jason and Roy were still people I had zero desire to read about, Starfire was worth supporting the title.

You did however say, unless I misunderstood, that they dropped it after like 2 issues and we've not seen it since, correct?

Yeah, no more appearances. Sucks, but that's life for a Batcomic character who isn't a batfolk I guess.

Damn shame, since without Mystery in Space we have no real eye on the day to day sections of Cosmic DC. Not since Geoff Johns decided that green lanterns needed to be ALL FIGHT SCENES ALL THE TIME.

[Metahuman1]

Shinken: Alright, look, how many books is Jason up too at the moment? I will give him, when I have money (which, right this minute is so tight it's painful and likely won't be improving for some months if not longer.), one more chance to convince me he is something more then two story arcs and after that a love letter to early 90's image comics.

Jayngfet: God, you know Jones, I want to like you, I do. But you just keep doing things that make me want to beat my head against a wall till I bleed in the hopes of going numb enough to stop feeling the sting. I can still defend you with "Better then Joe Qusada", but your making that increasingly thin as a defense.

[Mystic Muse]

...Better than Joe Quesada really isn't saying much at all.:smalltongue:

[Metahuman1]

I am painfully aware of this.

[Shinken]

Shinken: Alright, look, how many books is Jason up too at the moment? I will give him, when I have money (which, right this minute is so tight it's painful and likely won't be improving for some months if not longer.), one more chance to convince me he is something more then two story arcs and after that a love letter to early 90's image comics.
I'm definitely not telling you to do that. :smalltongue: Red Hood and the Outlaws is not a good comic at all. Read it if you can borrow from someone, but don't buy it.