Exalted Vilain in a non evil campaign

[Azoth]

So in a game I am running, I kind of want to mess with my players' heads. I haven't decided on a build or even chassis yet, but I am toying around with the idea of working in a major enemy for them that is actually exhaulted and has a fair number of if not most of the Vow feats.

My main hurdle is finding a motivation and method for this character to be an opposing force to the party. None of them are evil and they are the good guys doing the whole "Party of Heroes" thing.

The only thought I am having is to have someone they already trust to send them after this person. Have him abducting high ranking members of the city council and destroying certain structures.

Let the party investigate the scenes and try to piece together that this guy has made certain to not injure anyone when he destroys a structure and such as clues that he isn't necessarily Evil.

So, since my mind is coming up blank on ways to work this guy in...I turn to the playground. What motivations would an Exalted character have to be an opposing force to a party of do gooders?

[Kazudo]

Well, I can think of a few ways.

1) The players commit an act or string of acts that unknowingly and drastically furthers some evil chessmaster's plans in his game of Xanatos Speed Calvinball, and the Powers That Be send an Exalted warrior to shoot first and ask questions later.

2) The players do something to interrupt an Act of Unquestionable Good unknowingly that this being was in the middle of doing, and he retaliates against them due to the proportionate amount of good he has just failed to do.

3) The being was blatantly lied to by someone powerful enough to be able to do that.

4) The party is carrying around a horribly powerfully evil item (See: Xykon's Crown) which confuses said being on their actual alignment

5) The party has actually committed, in a scene of weakness or a time of crisis, a pretty heinous evil act and unthinkingly the being was dispatched.

When you're talking about sending a greater good after an already somewhat good or at least neutrally aligned party, it's pretty much got to be something serious to justify a being as great as the one you're describing. Essentially, the players are caught up in something so bad that it would be better to nuke them from orbit than attempt to correct or recover from anything they may or may not do.

[Honest Tiefling]

They're being manipulated. I am not 100% of Exalted feats, but I imagine some might still work even when being dominated, if not just mislead by the nose by a few well placed lies and deceptions.

And perhaps this being isn't hunting THEM down, but rather someone else. Maybe he committed an evil act in the past. Maybe he's still skimming things, or even outright punishing (I would not go as far as killing, but perhaps stripping titles and the like) people in his way. But you know what? Due to a combination of being born to the right family, one or more marriages that cement alliances, the guy is keeping stuff stable. If he falls, the entire web of intrigue and alliances comes crashing down and people who formerly had sworn blood oaths against each other are more then willing to bring up old feuds and rip apart the kingdom. And a giant civil war on two, three, etc. fronts gets nasty and bad news for the people who suffer the most: The peasants.

And when you have an entire army of demons, undead, eldritch abominations or what have you on your border, letting the guy keep the throne in exchange of dealing with the problem that will probably skin people and then wear said skin is probably more urgent then a morally questionable leader, who for the MOST part is just or fair enough to not worry about.

The PCs are the ones protecting that leader, or working for him. Some might resent him, but he pays what he says he does and doesn't begrudge the party for stuff they cannot control as long as they get the job done. He might not be entirely fair and honest, but at least he's treating the party alright. One of them could even be related to him or related to one of his wives, and involved in said web of politics.

However, this exalted being might be mistaken as to the true nature of the guy. Given that his duplicitous and selfish nature is so at odds with being Exalted, it might not even understand him. Wouldn't take all that much to convince such a pure, selfless being that he's not on the level and things might be better if someone else was on the throne. Perhaps, if there could be a source of such great magic to dominate or influence this being...To convince him that HE would be the better choice, given that he is a vessel of love, compassion, and goodness. What better leader could there be!

But maybe the being has other tasks he should be doing. Maybe it cannot understand others well enough to govern such a flawed, immoral people. Maybe it just sucks at politics, expecting others to think exactly like he does, not understanding why people would ever undermine the greater good or not treat such as suitable argument to do something. Maybe that thing influencing it would also influence it on the throne, and that is probably bad. Maybe that is why this being isn't dealing with that threat on the borders, because it has been influenced to care more about this guy on the throne.

[Azoth]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, but I am more looking for ways to make the party want to hunt the Exalted character down and dispose of him.

I want to see their reactions when they realize that the guy they picked a fight with is a shining beacon of good and righteousness. That they, as the good guys and heroes, have been hunting down and openly opposing a being that is a champion of Good in its highest regards.

I am also curious to see if they will try and make ammends to side with him and learn the truth or just follow typical gamer mindset and see him as a sack of XP to be busted like a birthday piñata.

[Kazudo]

Oh. That's totally not the impression I got from your first post.

It depends on how GOOD this creature really is. The nature of good is discussed pretty heavily in the Book of Exalted Deeds and, IIRC, Complete Champion.

Really, just have the guy do something that would be totally evil if you didn't understand the reasoning. Burn down an orphanage that is unknowingly filled with demons posing as children in an attempt to taint the local population by osmosis, leaving the dominated adults and caretakers unharmed. Something of that effect. It's MUCH easier to trick PCs into doing the wrong thing than an Exemplar of Good.

If the being is, however, so stinking good that he can do nothing that could possibly be construed as an evil act, then have him be the one thing that could possibly stop a catastrophe and make the players so enraged at his lack of action that they end up accusing him of being evil through inaction and try to knock some sense into him.

As to how your players will react, that's...pretty much entirely up to them.

[Zanthy1]

Here is an idea, one that my buddy and I are actually trying to smooth out to run in a campaign we are co-Dming.

There is this guy who is exalted, he is awesome and super cool and friendly and everyone loves him. Then there is this other guy who is a sneaky jerk face who manipulates people or something. This sneaky guy manipulates the party into believing that the Exalted fellow is not who he says he is, and that he needs to be brought to justice.

For example: the elected leader of the town is exalted, but the sheriff wants to be in control, so he convinces the party that the leader is evil, and corrupt, and needs to be killed. He then sets up various scenes for the players to find, all of which get blamed on the leader. Then wen they finally hunt down and kill Mr. Exalted, the real baddie reveals himself, laughs at them, then has them arrested for murder, and claims the title of hero, thus giving him the position of power that he wanted. Essentially he frames the players.

[Honest Tiefling]

Perhaps the party is put into a position that they have to make a difficult choice: The life of this exalted being, who they may or may not know is exalted, or themselves, their leader, or even a loved one who unknowingly committed an evil act. (To steal ideas from Kazudo, as they were good ideas and I am not Exalted). The thing might also be hunting them to either bring them to justice or to undo the damage they did. They may not want to pay it, or figure there's other things they could be doing, thanks, that demon army isn't going to defeat itself (At least not in a way that's good for any mortal).

[Vogonjeltz]

Oh. That's totally not the impression I got from your first post.

It depends on how GOOD this creature really is. The nature of good is discussed pretty heavily in the Book of Exalted Deeds and, IIRC, Complete Champion.

Really, just have the guy do something that would be totally evil if you didn't understand the reasoning. Burn down an orphanage that is unknowingly filled with demons posing as children in an attempt to taint the local population by osmosis, leaving the dominated adults and caretakers unharmed. Something of that effect. It's MUCH easier to trick PCs into doing the wrong thing than an Exemplar of Good.

If the being is, however, so stinking good that he can do nothing that could possibly be construed as an evil act, then have him be the one thing that could possibly stop a catastrophe and make the players so enraged at his lack of action that they end up accusing him of being evil through inaction and try to knock some sense into him.

As to how your players will react, that's...pretty much entirely up to them.

The Book of Exalted Deeds is quite clear that committing an evil act is evil no matter the motive. Doing evil to achieve good ends is patently evil.

The only way to have an Exalted Opponent who remains Exalted is to have them oppose some goal of the PCs.

Example: Evil Guy hires party to retrieve a Mcguffin, ostensibly for some noble purpose (perhaps the heart of a unicorn is necessary to create a potion to heal the king). The exalted character is a guardian of the forest and, naturally, objects to the commission of an evil act (harvesting the organs of an intelligent creature). Conflict ensues if the party won't back down.

[Kazudo]

Neither of the things I said went against that statement. The first one wasn't even evil but could be perceived that way (if, say, all of the orphans were evil fiends, the destruction of which is listed SOMEWHERE as a patently good act and the only "innocent dominated people" were left unscathed, the party naturally would just see some jackhole burn down an orphanage and feel good about it.) The second one was actually legitimately inaction. Both of these, granted, are total extremes.

Just to clarify.

[Baroknik]

Another idea: the exalted character is required to sacrifice something of great personal value for the greater good, but he will not do it. Remember that not all exalted characters are Saints (template) and so may not act perfectly. While it apparently is best to force this sacrifice, it is his choice (make him CG exalted), and he refuses to do so. The king may declare him an outlaw and the hunt for this "fallen" knight/retainer/vassal is on. It is not a matter of him truly failing to do good, but of him refusing to bow down to authority.

Remember, not all oppositions are good/evil: law/chaos could be the initial conflict here!

[Vogonjeltz]

Neither of the things I said went against that statement. The first one wasn't even evil but could be perceived that way (if, say, all of the orphans were evil fiends, the destruction of which is listed SOMEWHERE as a patently good act and the only "innocent dominated people" were left unscathed, the party naturally would just see some jackhole burn down an orphanage and feel good about it.) The second one was actually legitimately inaction. Both of these, granted, are total extremes.

Just to clarify.

BoED states that even fiends can be redeemed. Not that it matters, murdering children is still murder (always evil) regardless of the species or alignment.

[Fyermind]

So Mr. Exalted is intent on bringing justice and salvation to evildoers. There is great evil in the military and Mr. Exalted is abducting members of the policing forces and putting them through a portal to the upper planes where they can be shown true kindness and mend their ways.

Of course, when the police force is being decimated by an unknown force, criminals start to realize they can get away with anything which should get the PCs involved in the story arc. When the PCs find out that Mr. Exalted is going after the prince for his crimes against the citizens, it's time to step in to the deep end, fighting around a portal surrounded by a cult of casters prepared to banish the evil prince to a paradise even he cannot damage.

[HammeredWharf]

The good old "for the greater good" motive works in this case. Exalted beings don't commit evil acts for the greater good. Good PCs can and often do, especially if the "greater good" is the survival of them and everyone they know.

[TandemChelipeds]

The Exalted villain is working in the service of another, genuinely evil villain, who is actually far weaker than the Exalted villain. The Exalted villain's reasons are that they believe that if they can aid the villain in achieving their goals, they can ease their suffering and dissolve the attachments that keep them bound to evil, redeeming them and saving the world quite a bit of torment in the long run.

This idea isn't original on my part, I'm basically ripping the plot of Fate/Extra, the final boss of which is Buddha.

[Deophaun]

The Exalted thing is something that happened recently in your "villain's" life. Previously, he was notorious bad guy. Nations still tremble when you mention his name.

That's all in the past, though. He's repented and undertaken a heroic quest for atonement. During this quest, he discovered that some *bad thing* is on the horizon. Maybe it's an Elder Evil, maybe it's a rift to the Abyss dozens of miles long. Whatever, the only way to combat it is to unite the various kingdoms. Problem is, these kingdoms have centuries of bad blood between them, and the only time they ever united was when they were facing him.

So that's your "villain's" plan; let everyone know that he's back, make the kingdoms believe he is amassing an army, and get them to put aside their differences so they can fight the true threat.

As the PCs follow on this guy's heels, they'll run into the cultists or mad sorcerers or whatever that are ushering in the true threat. As far as they can tell, he's responsible for it, because wherever he goes, these things seem to pop up. And your "villain" is happy to play into their fears, because they have direct lines back to a court or two or three, and can verify that the thing these kingdoms fear most is back and they need to get the gang back together.

[Aliek]

This reminds me of handsome jack from borderlands a bit, in a way he genuinely believes to be a good guy. Perhaps he might serve as some inspiration?

But mostly it'll boil down to misunderstanding intentions somehow, or law/chaos conflicts. Perhaps he has a big ego and doesn't like a pc stepping on his toes, so he tries to find something bad in their past?

[NichG]

First of all, this requires a different approach than you'd normally use for a D&D villain. If this character is actually and seriously exalted, he's going to have to be a sort of mastermind type rather than a direct combatant. If he ever basically lowers himself to beating up good people to get his way, he's not really exalted.

So, here's a proposed scenario:

- The just and rightful ruler of a kingdom has died, leaving three potential heirs. Cue civil war. One heir is obviously awful, but the other two are both well-meaning, goodly people who have a strong disagreement over how the country should be run (perhaps one wants a enlightened monarchy and the other wants to take a shot at a new system of government run by the citizens - democracy/republic/whatever). Out of the two goodly heirs, their forces are somewhat asymmetric. The exalted villain basically wants to resolve the conflict one way because it will make for the shortest war and thus the least death all around. The party is aimed at wanting to/supporting someone who wants a particular heir to win the war out of the three, but not the same one as the exalted villain wants to win.

So now the party is trying to get Wise President Harold in charge despite his weaker forces and therefore more drawn-out conflict, and the exalted villain is trying to help Wise King Gregory ascend the throne since he has the forces to take out the evil brother. Furthermore, he wants Harold to not be destroyed by violence, but to be convinced of the futility of his claim to the throne and to join his army with his brother's, since that would help take out the evil brother more decisively and further minimize the casualties.

This villain will not directly attack the PCs or anyone of Good alignment, nor will he send people 'after' the PCs. What he will do however is use diplomacy, espionage, and strategy to manipulate events in ways that disadvantage the PCs and their goals.

One thing to keep in mind about this scenario - this guy could easily become an ally instead of an enemy, if either the PCs present a very solid case for why there will be less death their way than his way (keeping in mind that the sanctity of life in this particular conflict is his concern, not the freedom of self-rule or potential 'what-ifs' about future monarchs being rotten), or if the PCs decide they agree with him and join his side of the conflict. So this isn't a ramp-up-to-BBEG sort of campaign, but rather a shifting alliances sort of campaign where there may not be a climactic battle between the PCs and some powerful figure.

[Sith_Happens]

The Exalted NPC is sworn to protect some MacGuffin that the PCs need. Though the cause for which they need it may in fact be quite noble, it could also be used for great evil and the PCs have no way to prove their intentions to the NPC, who as such won't give it up.

As an aside, if the party is uncomfortable with the idea of fighting a champion of Good there should be a way for them to avoid doing so. In the above scenario, they could potentially back off at first and come back with sufficient evidence to prove that the MacGuffin is safe in their hands, though such evidence may be extremely difficult to acquire since the NPC will only part with the item if he has no doubts whatsoever that they're genuine (or, alternatively, he'll want to come with them).

[Kazudo]

BoED states that even fiends can be redeemed. Not that it matters, murdering children is still murder (always evil) regardless of the species or alignment.

Even if the children are polymorphed fully grown fiends which the exalted being has prior knowledge of?

It sounds a lot like you're saying "There's no such thing as an always evil person but there is such a thing as an always evil act" which negates the concept of irredeemably evil children.

[Runestar]

Is it possible that your exalted NPC is currently in the midst of some grand scheme (eg: trying to prevent the end of the world or manage the fallout from any such impending catastrophe, like the movie 2012) and feels the actions of the PCs might threaten to undermine his work somehow? He can't explain the situation to them; he doesn't want news of this to spread and cause widespread chaos and panic, so he tries to stymie the PCs at every turn, and possibly even be forced to personally step in once in a while?

[Grayson01]

If I may, I like your idea of "Exalted Villian", suggest the Villian being ether a Paladin/Hellreaver or a Barbarian/Hellreaver maybe even Tiefling or Hellbread. And you can use the idea of the Orphanage of Demons, but maybe there is a cult raising them, or a High up Political figure has made a deal with some powerful Devils so he has been creating centers of powers for the Devils/Demons and the Hellreaver (is the child or a relative of the head deal making outsider) is attacking and destorying these on "Legit" Orghanages, Battered Womens Shelters, Homeless shelters, Polictical houses... the political leader who made the deal asks the PCs to stop teh attacks from the mysterious figure seen leaving the destroction.

[Malroth]

the Exaulted character is rounding up magical amplifiers in order to perform a ritual that will cast Programmed Amnesia on everyone everywhere to erase even the capability of evil thoughts from existing.

[SimonMoon6]

I once had a small gathering of demons (in human guise) in a secluded location who helped out the PCs (for reasons that benefited themselves). So, naturally, the PCs thought kindly of these demons. Then, the demons mentioned their great enemy who was coming to destroy them (they didn't mention that he was a powerful paladin). So, the PCs felt obligated to fight the paladin to defend the demons.

Of course this relied on the PCs not knowing that the demons were demons. And after the fight, the PCs weren't quite sure if the paladin was a paladin or not.

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You can easily have a good character who is misinformed.

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You can have good people who actually have conflicting ideas on what is the right thing to do. If you've ever had inter-party strife, you can imagine how this might work.

For example, should a magic item be destroyed to prevent an evil guy from getting it? Or must it be protected because of the good it does? (This is much like the Snarl's gates in OOTS.)

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Good guys can be jerks. That's often all it takes to tick off the PCs. They might eagerly attack a noble, exalted PC who's so much of a goody-goody that he prevents the PCs from doing what they want to do.

[Vogonjeltz]

Even if the children are polymorphed fully grown fiends which the exalted being has prior knowledge of?

It sounds a lot like you're saying "There's no such thing as an always evil person but there is such a thing as an always evil act" which negates the concept of irredeemably evil children.

Polymorphing is a temporary mask, underlying that is the creatures actual nature. So, no, they wouldn't be children. That being said, if the Exalted character has no proof the fiends have done anything wrong, and nothing to show they intend to do something, it would be wrong to murder them.

*and yes, by RAW there really are only evil acts, alignments are always subject to change.

[Jack_Simth]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, but I am more looking for ways to make the party want to hunt the Exalted character down and dispose of him.

I want to see their reactions when they realize that the guy they picked a fight with is a shining beacon of good and righteousness. That they, as the good guys and heroes, have been hunting down and openly opposing a being that is a champion of Good in its highest regards.

I am also curious to see if they will try and make ammends to side with him and learn the truth or just follow typical gamer mindset and see him as a sack of XP to be busted like a birthday piñata.

There are a great many ways to do this. Here's a couple with wildcards:

Trick the party. Manipulation Man (MM) frames Good Guy (GG). Depending on how much the party tends to check things out, his could be as simple as putting up a couple of wanted posters, or could be as involved as having someone in disguise commit a few crimes in such a way as to not seem to want to be found out, while a couple of (honest, but planted there by some form of manipulation) witnesses watch.

Mutually exclusive goals. [Noun] is needed to end [Immediate Problem]. However, it could also be used to prevent [Bigger But Not Immediate Problem] from ever happening. Trouble is, [Noun] can't be used for both. Party is contacted to arrange for one of them, GG is set upon the other.

Disguised Evil. GG is actually going through and cleaning up a [Disguised Evil]. However, [Disguised Evil] is very well disguised, and appears to be [Good Thing]. GG knows this, and is going through and destroying [Disguised Evil] left and right. Sadly, GG knows very well that everyone thinks [Disguised Evil] is [Good Thing], but is willing to sacrifice GG's reputation to end [Disguised Evil].

Trick GG. GG is under [False Impression], and is acting based on that. Essentially the same as the one immediately prior, except this time, [Good Thing] really is [Good Thing], it's just that GG thinks [Good Thing] is [Disguised Evil].

[Warlocknthewind]

Obligitory Pelor the Burning Hate mention.

Paladin of Pelor thinks he's doin' good, and has good effects, so that it's all still hunky dory, all the while Pelor's setting up a curse against all who aren't purely human so they rise as twisted undead upon their demise. "They rose from the dead, supernaturally, independent of currupt spellcasting, they must all be soulless and evil at their core", cue genocide against all other races (especially elves) to preform a ritual so they do not rise, allowing their souls to ascend to the outer planes. If he did NOT kill them and do said ritual, their souls would be tortured and consumed in an undead state.

This infuriated the philosophical pair of players at my table, trying to figure out which way was the most moral path (taking a portal to the Plane of Shadow, going back in time and preventing Pelor from rising in the first place from Gehenna was their conclusion, and it worked for me)

:smallwink:

[dantiesilva]

This just screams make Frollo from the hunchback of Notre dame. Cleric/ spell thief/church inquistor. Have fun at the ultimate law that makes nonsense rules like no teleporting inside of the town. No use of magic in the market, except by officials. All new commers to the city must report to the church to have all there items inventories, and take away contraband that is not allowed inside.

[Yomega]

I have always loved the story situation where there is a clear goal (IE : End Of The World) and having your Antagonist be working for the major faction in the area.

The big hook is that your players have information or ability (destined blood, an old prophesy, a one on one talk with the great old one about to engulf the world) that for some reason the other faction will not acknowledge. Putting you in position where you both are clearly good (commoners like you), you have common enemies, hell you can even have social events with the other good faction. But end of the day they think your method is wrong and you think theres is wrong.

And then as a last minute twist have it come out that your method has been wrong the hole time, but that's just cause I love to twist things like that :smallbiggrin:

You can highlight this kind of situation by referring to the parties as protagonist and antagonist, just because your the center of the story does not mean you are right, and just because they oppose you doesnt make them evil. Compromise and diligence will win the day.

And finaly how epic would it be to cow an exalted hero of the people good guy by out gooding him :smallfurious: