Early Entry cheese to get 3rd level spells *prepared*

[Nettlekid]

Hey, I'm trying to make a 19th level cohort designed to be a Scroll-maker to support an Archivist, and I want it to have twelve levels of Warlock for Imbue Item and then five levels of Unbound Scroll. The issue is that Unbound Scroll requires the ability to prepare level 3 spells or infusions. Unfortunately, this means that a lot of usual early entry tricks like Sanctum Spell or Earth Spell or Illumian's pseudo-DMM won't work, because all of those apply as you're casting the spell, which is fine for prereqs which say "ability to cast 3rd level spells" but technically you haven't actually prepared a 3rd level spell, which is what Unbound Scroll requires.

So does anyone have a suggestion? At present I think the best thing I can do is have my first level be Wizard, use Precocious Apprentice to get some level 2 Necromancy spell, and prepare it with Heighten spell next to a Slaymate. But not only is this feat-intensive, and also troublesome because to keep that ability (I play that if you lose prereqs for a PrC you lose the features of the PrC) I'll either have to apply the casting progression from Unbound Scroll to Wizard instead of Warlock (so I can cast 3rd level spells as a Wizard normally) or keep the Slaymate around forever, neither of which I really want to do. Can anyone think of a better way? I haven't looked through Planar Touchstones and Magical Locations yet, which I expect might be able to do something like this.

EDIT: Alternatively, all of this could be circumvented if anyone could suggest some way for Artificers to make divine scrolls. Would there be some way to create an Artificer scroll of some spell, and then activate that scroll in the creation of another scroll and somehow get that scroll to be divine as opposed to unaligned (something like making a Scroll of Miracle, then activating Miracle to copy a divine spell, and then putting that spell into a scroll)? Hopefully in some way which is more cost-effective than making every scroll twice, since the whole point of Unbound Scroll is to halve the cost.

[Azoth]

Why not just make a Wizard that uses Alternate Spell Source or Southern Magic to prepair his spells as divine spells to go into Unbound Scroll with?

As an Archivist you can already snag any divine spell yourself. There aren't too many Arcane Spells of note that aren't on the Wiz/Sorc list.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Arcane thesis+heighten spell+invisible spell+energy substitution should work although feat intensive.

[Nettlekid]

Why not just make a Wizard that uses Alternate Spell Source or Southern Magic to prepair his spells as divine spells to go into Unbound Scroll with?

As an Archivist you can already snag any divine spell yourself. There aren't too many Arcane Spells of note that aren't on the Wiz/Sorc list.

*eyeroll* The cohort is the means by which the Archivist is getting the divine spells! By taking 12 levels of Warlock, the cohort will be able to make any spell into a divine scroll (a very strict DM might argue only any spell which in some way can already be cast as a divine spell, but that's a large number of them) which the Archivist will then copy. I'm trying to cut down on costs in making the scroll to transfer over. Also I have no idea what you're actually suggesting, because if I was just using a Wizard then I wouldn't need Southern Magician or anything since Unbound Scroll requires arcane casting, not divine. Or if you're suggesting that I have a Wizard and then use Southern Magician to make divine scrolls for the Archivist, again that's a no-go because Southern Magician swaps a spell's source at the time of casting and explicitly keeps preparation the same, and you never actually cast a spell that you make into a scroll, just use it up from its prepared slot.


Arcane thesis+heighten spell+invisible spell+energy substitution should work although feat intensive.

Hm, that might work, although I've always been a little unsure about Arcane Thesis interacting with Heighten. Since it doesn't reduce Heighten when Heighten is used alone, I could imagine a DM saying that any application of Heighten sets a new base spell level (since it's the real spell level being raised, not just the spell slot level) that Arcane Thesis can't go beneath. But that's a good thought in any case, although as you say it's painfully feat intensive.

[Azoth]

Southern Magic may not work. I was away from my books.

The feat Alternate Spell Source specifically calls out preping the spell as either arcane or divine, your choice. You would cast it at -1CL but as you said, you never cast it so not a problem.

When you go to make your scroll you are expending a divine spell to create it.

I was suggesting just using a wizard and having him prep any arcane spell you wanted as a divine spell for crafting your scroll.

[Crake]

Arcane thesis+heighten spell+invisible spell+energy substitution should work although feat intensive.

or you can just use sanctum spell and heighten spell with arcane thesis. Cuts out a feat, or you can get invisible/energy substitution plus magical training to be able to prepare 3rd level spells without any class levels, just 5 feats (5 feats is alot though)

[Jack_Simth]

A 1 level dip in Wizard, plus race selection, and several choices of feats, can do it. No, seriously.

Race: Elf.
1st Level: Wizard. Elven Generalist Substitution level, + Domain Wizard.
Feats: Uncanny Forethought (Exemplers of Evil), Versatile Spellcaster. You may need Heighten Spell and Practiced Spellcaster as well.

Uncanny Forethought lets you spontaneously cast spells. Versatile Spellcaster lets you combine two spell slots of level X to cast a spell of level X+1.
The Elven Generalist Substitution level gives you a single extra spell slot at the highest level you can cast (and the slot migrates).
Domain Wizard gives you spells known and an extra spell slot at all levels of spells you can cast (up to 9th).

The combination, if permitted, means that at 1st level, you can cast 1st level spells... and have enough slots for using Versatile Spellcaster to cast 2nd level spells.
However, as son as you can cast 2nd level spells, Domain Wizard gives you a 2nd level spell slot, and the Elven Generalist Substitution Level moves the bonus slot to 2nd level. Which means you have two second level spell slots, and so Versatile Spellcaster means you can cast 3rd level spells.
Theoretically, this would kick you all the way up to 9ths... but we don't need that, so we assume the caster level limit means you need a caster level of 5 to cast 3rd level spells, so we pick up Practiced Spellcaster to get our caster level up there, and let that be the end of it (as that's all we need).

[Vaz]

It works up to 3rd level spells (for this purpose), but it doesn't get you 9th level spells, because you only get 1 additional spell, which if you use to piggy back your way up to casting a higher level spell, clearly means you don't have it available to use to piggy back up to the next level.

[Kazudo]

Somehow working in ten levels of Geomancer might help, since Spell Versatility could theoretically be used to change arcane spells INTO divine spells. The whole mixing and matching of spellcasting parameters from any of the character's classes to gain the maximum possible advantage for any spell with a spell level equal to or less than his spell versatility score thing.

[Darrin]

The issue is that Unbound Scroll requires the ability to prepare level 3 spells or infusions. Unfortunately, this means that a lot of usual early entry tricks like Sanctum Spell or Earth Spell or Illumian's pseudo-DMM won't work, because all of those apply as you're casting the spell, which is fine for prereqs which say "ability to cast 3rd level spells" but technically you haven't actually prepared a 3rd level spell, which is what Unbound Scroll requires.


Can you use Dragonsblood Pool or the Extra Slot feat to get yourself a 3rd level spell slot? If so, then you could prepare a Heightened 2nd level spell in there.

[Sian]

Illumian with the Improved Sigil: Krau feat... two spells (any spells, doesn't matter if one is Arcane and the other is Divine), counts for all intends and purposes as one level higher ... and each time you gain new spells you're allowed to change which two spells thats buffed from the Sigil

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Arcane Thesis does not work with Heighten Spell, it says so right in the feat. Having Heighten Spell on the spell excludes it from benefiting from Arcane Thesis at all.


An Illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau and Sanctum Spell can make a 1st level spell count as 3rd level.

[Nettlekid]

I'm not going with the Elven Generalist thing. It's too cheesy and rule-ambiguous. If I was the DM I wouldn't allow it, and I wouldn't want to be allowed it if I was playing it.


Illumian with the Improved Sigil: Krau feat... two spells (any spells, doesn't matter if one is Arcane and the other is Divine), counts for all intends and purposes as one level higher ... and each time you gain new spells you're allowed to change which two spells thats buffed from the Sigil


Arcane Thesis does not work with Heighten Spell, it says so right in the feat. Having Heighten Spell on the spell excludes it from benefiting from Arcane Thesis at all.


An Illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau and Sanctum Spell can make a 1st level spell count as 3rd level.

These still won't work. Both Sanctum Spell and Improved Sigil: Krau take effect when the spell is cast. It is prepared as a 1st level spell, and cast as a 3rd level spell. I need it to somehow be prepared as a 3rd level spell.


Can you use Dragonsblood Pool or the Extra Slot feat to get yourself a 3rd level spell slot? If so, then you could prepare a Heightened 2nd level spell in there.

Hmm, now that looks promising. Since Dragonsblood Pool specifies that it can grant a slot of up to third level that you can CAST, the previous tricks work for getting a 3rd level spell cast. Once it gives me a third level spell slot, I can then prepare a Heightened spell like you said. Would it be easiest to use Improved Sigil: Krau and Sanctum Spell, or to be a Naenhoon Illumian with one level of Wizard and one level of Cleric and use the Cleric's Turning to fuel Heighten Spell? Since Clerics can convert spells spontaneously into Cures, could I turn a 1st level Cleric spell into a freely Heightened Cure Light Wounds (or the reverse, a freely Heightened 1st level spell into a Cure Moderate Wounds) to apply for Dragonsblood Pool?

[dextercorvia]

Magical Training (Spont), Precoscious Apprentice, Spell Focus (any), Metamagic School Focus, Heighten Spell, Arcane Preparation. I think that gets you there in the fewest number of feats (short of using a Dragonsblood pool).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Magical Training (Spont), Precoscious Apprentice, Spell Focus (any), Metamagic School Focus, Heighten Spell, Arcane Preparation. I think that gets you there in the fewest number of feats (short of using a Dragonsblood pool).

Precocious Apprentice, Metamagic School Focus (specialist), and Heighten Spell on a prepared caster should be able to do the exact same thing.

[Jack_Simth]

It works up to 3rd level spells (for this purpose), but it doesn't get you 9th level spells, because you only get 1 additional spell, which if you use to piggy back your way up to casting a higher level spell, clearly means you don't have it available to use to piggy back up to the next level.
That's where the domain wizard aspect comes in. The Domain Wizard variant gives you a spell slot permanently as soon as you can cast spells of that level. And, of course, once you get the slot, you continue to be able to cast spells of that level. The Elven Generalist Substitution level only gives you the one spell slot, but it moves up as you go. So you end up with a Wizard-1 (with flaws...) that has:
Standard Wizard-1 Spell Slots.
A Domain spell slot of each spell level 1-9.
A generic spell slot of level 9.
Bonus spell slots for a high Intelligence score.

There's a couple of bits of ambiguity in there that could cause problems (how does a wizard define spells known for versatile spellcaster, for instance; also what is the minimum caster level to cast a spell in such cases) but a rather lot of cheese has that... and the OP was specifically requesting cheese (which this is - the rules were not intended to interact this way, and the spirit of the elven generalist substitution level is counter to the spirit of the domain wizard variant). However, given the OP's situation, Practised Spellcaster gets past the minimum caster level issue even under a fairly tight DM enough for the OP's purposes, and most readings of spells known for a Wizard mean anything in the spellbook (and nothing stops you from adding scrolls of spells higher than you can cast into your spellbook; might need Spell Mastery as well, potentially, for a particularly stringent DM).

[Nettlekid]

OP wants to put a stop to Elven Generalist Domain Wizard discussions. I did say cheese, but in the realm of "this works within reasonable interpretation even if it's kind of strange." The Domain Wizard stuff is just too dubious. So no more about that, please. I'd be glad to hear more suggestions of making the Dragonsblood Pool more effective/efficient.

[Taelas]

You have an odd definition of what cheese is if you accept early entry tricks at all but reject the Elven Generalist trick. They use precisely the same sort of logic.

[dextercorvia]

You have an odd definition of what cheese is if you accept early entry tricks at all but reject the Elven Generalist trick. They use precisely the same sort of logic.

They do, but the devil is in the degree, here. I've been suggesting it for years, and even played it once, but the people who are comfortable with the Versatile Domain Generalist form a strict subset of the people who are comfortable allowing early entry.

[Nettlekid]

It's mostly fluff and flavor that I don't like about things like Elven Generalist Domain Wizard. For Precocious Apprentice working to cast 2nd level spells, that's quite simple fluff. You're not great at doing it, but you're pushing yourself beyond your normal limits and you can break into something new early. To combine Precocious Apprentice with Sanctum Spell for 3rd level spells is saying the same, and then that you're drawing on mystical power of the location to heighten yourself beyond your capabilities, which severely limits you to both the single slot and the location. But with the Elven Generalist...I mean, what's the justification? Nothing but poorly-phrased RAW and handwaving the actual behavior of the magic. You wake up and think "Today I'll cast a stronger spell than normal. Oh, what's this? I can suddenly do it twice as much. I'll make that stronger. Oh, what's this? I can suddenly do it twice as much. Oh? Oh? Oh?" There's no style to it.

[dextercorvia]

There's no style to it.

You pierce me, sir.

For the Archives of the Paragnostic Assembly. Recorded the 8th day of Mikali, in the year 5347, Assembly’s Reckoning, by Recorder of the 1st Precept, Dalehvenon Greenbriar.

Member Broehnwynvar of Misty Reach brought us an interesting puzzle, and our newest member today. He arrived in the teleportation chamber at approximately noon with his newest apprentice in tow. The young elven woman is unremarkable in appearance. She bears traits consistent with her Gray Elven mother and Shadow Elf father. Her gray on gray features make her appear unassuming and inconspicuous. Verathalyn of Misty Reach, or Vera as she insists upon being called, is in fact, most remarkable. She began her studies with Broehnwynvar three weeks ago by his reckoning.
Most apprentice wizards consider themselves superior to their lessons. In the case of Vera, it appears she was correct. Her master reports that she mastered her first cantrips after a week of study – precocious but not particularly noteworthy. It was last night, as she began her study of true wizardry that something changed. When Broehnwynvar retired for the evening, Vera had her spellbook out and was attempting to record her first spell. When he awoke this morning, she had recorded twenty one spells above the level of cantrip, and eight of them were above the novice level as well. We have reviewed the facts of the case. Verathalyn of Misty Reach recorded Shapechange in her book. This is a spell that Member Broehnwynvar neither has recorded in his spellbook, or on any scroll. In fact this is a spell that is beyond his ability to cast. He ordered her to trance and then prepare her spells. When she had completed, he brought her directly here for an exhibition and examination of her abilities. The assembled members were astonished, and some even cried foul until Member Boehnwynvar’s story was corroborated.
As she is beyond the abilities of Member Broehwynvar, Vera has been entrusted to the Assembly for further study and education.

[Snowbluff]

They do, but the devil is in the degree, here. I've been suggesting it for years, and even played it once, but the people who are comfortable with the Versatile Domain Generalist is form a strict subset of the people who are comfortable allowing early entry.

Yeah, pretty much. Early entry is cool, but I rarely pull 9th level spells out at all, and certainly not at level 1.

[Taelas]

They do, but the devil is in the degree, here. I've been suggesting it for years, and even played it once, but the people who are comfortable with the Versatile Domain Generalist form a strict subset of the people who are comfortable allowing early entry.

You cannot pick and choose how logic applies on an individual basis. If one insists on allowing early entry tricks fue to a particular reading of the rules, it is the height of hypocrisy to disallow the Versatile Domain Generalist that is based on the exact same logic.

[Bakkan]

You cannot pick and choose how logic applies on an individual basis. If one insists on allowing early entry tricks fue to a particular reading of the rules, it is the height of hypocrisy to disallow the Versatile Domain Generalist that is based on the exact same logic.

Unless it is the case that "cheese" refers to a the ends of the optimization as well as or instead of the means. If the same reasoning in one situation produces a result far greater in magnitude than the same reasoning in another situation, it is entirely reasonable to call the first "cheese" and the other "not cheese" if such a metric is being used.

[dextercorvia]

You cannot pick and choose how logic applies on an individual basis. If one insists on allowing early entry tricks fue to a particular reading of the rules, it is the height of hypocrisy to disallow the Versatile Domain Generalist that is based on the exact same logic.

By the same token, if you allow Early Entry Cheese, you should allow Pun Pun? Or, if you allow this one piece of homebrew, you must allow all of it, regardless of content?

No, it is up to each DM (with the players) to determine how much rule bending, homebrew, and/or RAW abuse should be at his table.

[Jack_Simth]

You cannot pick and choose how logic applies on an individual basis. If one insists on allowing early entry tricks fue to a particular reading of the rules, it is the height of hypocrisy to disallow the Versatile Domain Generalist that is based on the exact same logic.

If you're basing it on how logic applies, sure. However, when it comes down to it, you don't generally want a computer running the game. The real question isn't "Is this fully rules-legal according to our understanding of the rules?" it's "If this is permitted, do we reasonably expect everyone involved to have the expected degree of 'fun' at the game?"