Is this concept build even possible?

[Honeko]

Alright so, I'm in a campaign that will be starting soon. And I've got, what I feel is, an unusual concept in mind. I'm trying to figure out if it's even possible to work pre-epic, and fully playable from low level - as in the build does it's job without having to be mid to high level.

So the basic concept is a martial adapt gish using two-weapon fighting, going Swiftblade, and getting the standard 16+ BAB and 9th level spells. I'd like to have 9th Level maneuvers as well. And a dash of Abjurant Champion. I'm thinking Diamond Mind and Iron Heart Maneuvers Or White Raven. Plenty of buff spells, Haste, and a few blast-y spells for variety.

Party consists of me, a swift hunter, a druid, a "tanking" whirling frenzy barbarian, and a rogue-like(Not positive on exact class). I am positive that the party optimization level is next to non-existent. We'll be starting at 6th level, with access to most books, but no Psionics. Races for story reasons are limited to core plus their subraces basically, may be able to swing some other race but it's doubtful. Definitely no Monstrous Humanoid, Dragon, Outsider or Planetouched; doubtful on heritage feats or monster-like templates. Flaws are okay, but no bloodlines.

Now, a basic build that's come to mind is something like:
Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 2/Wizard 2/Swiftblade 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 3/Warblade 3

That'll give me 17 BAB, 7th Level spells at 14 CL, and 9th Level Maneuvers at 17 IL(if I'm reading ToB pg 39, Multiclass characters right.) Get TWF from the feat, and Practiced Spellcaster to get 18 CL. I'd need 3 more full casting levels to get 9th level Spells.

Truth be told I don't think we'll get to 20th Level, so maybe something more like:
Wizard 5/Warblade 1/Swiftblade 3/Abjurant Champion X/X X

Martial Wizard will give me TWF, Practice Spellcaster gets me 10 CL. 3 2nd Level Maneuvers at 3 IL, Haste 1/day(Before bonus Spells), and 7 BAB at 10th Level.

I know it's a tall order to fill, but is it possible? Any thoughts on improving it? If it's not possible is there a better way to get what I want? Only things that have to be in the build are martial adapt and swiftblade.

Thanks for any and all advice.

[Pyromancer999]

I'm not 100% sure on the rest! but I know for sure that for your "basic build", you will not ever get 9th level maneuvers. For your IL as a Multiclass initiator, your IL is equal to your levels in classes that give you maneuvers + half your levels in other classes. So at 17th level, you'd have an Initiator Level that is 9, not access to 9th level maneuvers. You'd have access to 5th level maneuvers at that point. Also not sure where you're getting that Martial Wizard would boost your IL. It does not do so in any way.

As for how to improve the build, I'd recommend taking a look at the Swiftblade Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6280.0), as that seems to be a major part of this build.

Edit: Swordsage'd!

[Red Fel]

Now, a basic build that's come to mind is something like:
Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 2/Wizard 2/Swiftblade 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 3/Warblade 3

That'll give me 17 BAB, 7th Level spells at 14 CL, and 9th Level Maneuvers at 17 IL(if I'm reading ToB pg 39, Multiclass characters right.) Get TWF from the feat, and Practiced Spellcaster to get 18 CL. I'd need 3 more full casting levels to get 9th level Spells.

You are not reading ToB right.

In order to determine your available maneuvers, you have to first determine your initiator level. There is only one class on your list that fully advances initiator level, and that's Warblade. All other classes are only worth 1/2 IL. Thus, your IL is 11 (17/2 = 8.5 (round down to 8) from non-IL classes, +3 from Warblade). According to the chart you cited, IL 11 entitles you to 6th-level maneuvers, not 9th.

It is possible to get high-level spells and maneuvers. Most people tend to do it through Jade Phoenix Mage. I can't see any way to do it using levels of both AbChamp and Swiftblade, however. The mix is just too diluted. Decide what it is you want and run with it.

[JeminiZero]

There is also the Gish Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715) too look at.

The others above me are right: It is not possible to invest so heavily in Swiftblade AND get 9th level spells AND get 9th level maneuvers.

At least not naturally. But here is the thing about Maneuvers: Unlike spells, you can BUY your way into them. And I shall quote myself here:

It should be noted that the Martial Adepts, although lacking true Martial Weapon proficiency, gain the ability to recover maneuvers in the middle of combat. And while a 1 level dip will not net you anything spectacular, you CAN pick up additional maneuvers through feats or items.

Aim for low level maneuvers that are powerful for their level (White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge). Iron Heart Surge in particular, may be worth investing a feat in, giving a Warblade-based gish the ability to reliably shut down AMFs (as well as get himself out of all sorts of situations in general).

Alternatively, you can pick up high level maneuvers that do not have onerous requirements (Shadow Blink, Mountain Tombstone Strike), or which you gun for by investing in the prerequisite maneuvers (e.g. a 1 level Crusader dip can pick up both level 1 Devoted Spirit strikes, and Martial Spirit Stance, which counts as 3 Maneuvers in all, and qualifies him to learn Strike of Righteous Vitality from an item).
If you are willing to invest a couple more levels (and pick up more maneuvers), you might even be able to qualify for some of the other high end stuff. For example, Time Stands Still requires 4 Diamond mind maneuvers. If you take 2 your Warblade levels late, and channel all 4 maneuvers known into Diamond mind then you can qualify to pick up Time Stands Still from an item.

E.g. You take Warblade on level 5. So you are 4 Other / 1 Warblade. Your levels in 'other' count as half towards IL, so you count as a level 2+1 = 3 warblade. This qualifies you for level 2 maneuvers. You invest in e.g. Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Emerald Razor (we assume you spend your stance on something else that scales to higher levels, like Blood in the Water (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241913) or Leading the Charge). Now further down the road, say you have 4 Other / 1 Warblade / 2 Other. You take another level in Warblade. At this point, your 6 level in 'other' counts as 3 towards IL, so you have 3 + 2 = 5 IL. This qualifies you for level 3 maneuver, and you take mind over body. You now have 4 Diamond Mind maneuvers. You can now buy a Master Ring of Diamond Mind, and use that to pick up Time Stands Still. (You can also pick up Mountain Tombstone strike, due to its low prereqs).

[nedz]

I could be wrong, but I didn't think double 9s in Spells and Manoeuvres was possible.
I thought that 9/8, either way, was the best anyone had ever achieved.

[ben-zayb]

I could be wrong, but I didn't think double 9s in Spells and Manoeuvres was possible.
I thought that 9/8, either way, was the best anyone had ever achieved.Even if you are a beholder?:smallamused:

The closest I can think of would be a Hengeyokai w/ Assume Supernatural Ability PAOd twice to Beholder, then Beholder Mage 2/ Warblade 4/ Swiftblade 4/ JPM 10. CL22, IL17. Double 9ths. You'd need to use Polymorph and similar spells to dual wield though.

[Honeko]

Alright. I was reading that PrC count for full IL not half. Good to know that they also only count half. I've read both Handbooks actually, I guess what I'm trying to do is get High level spells and Manuevers without Jade Phoenix Mage. I know that Swiftblade isn't super conductive to that as it loses 4 CL over ten levels, but that's why I ask here. I'm willing to work a bit with the build as I want to play the martial adapt gish, which the handbooks don't but lightly touch on, both with Jade Phoenix Mage. I'm still learning ToB so that doesn't help my confusion with this build.

So to reiterate, I'm looking to get high level spells and maneuvers without using Jade Phoenix Mage, but using Swiftblade. I can get TWF from a feat, to cover that part of the build, or I could drop TWF for something else. As I've said, only the martial adapt and Swiftblade are set in stone. How many levels of each is a different matter.

[HunterOfJello]

Alright. I was reading that PrC count for full IL not half. Good to know that they also only count half. I've read both Handbooks actually, I guess what I'm trying to do is get High level spells and Manuevers without Jade Phoenix Mage. I know that Swiftblade isn't super conductive to that as it loses 4 CL over ten levels, but that's why I ask here. I'm willing to work a bit with the build as I want to play the martial adapt gish, which the handbooks don't but lightly touch on, both with Jade Phoenix Mage. I'm still learning ToB so that doesn't help my confusion with this build.

So to reiterate, I'm looking to get high level spells and maneuvers without using Jade Phoenix Mage, but using Swiftblade. I can get TWF from a feat, to cover that part of the build, or I could drop TWF for something else. As I've said, only the martial adapt and Swiftblade are set in stone. How many levels of each is a different matter.

What is it about Swiftblade that you love so much and would you object if we found a way to replicate that without using that specific PrC?

You're not going to get high level maneuvers and spells without using Jade Phoenix Mage or using Pun-Pun level or extremely cheesy tricks.

[Red Fel]

Here's a rather important point: Swiftblade isn't a gish class.

Gish classes are noted for their ability to combine melee power with spellcasting ability, usually in the form of buffs or battlefield control. Swiftblade doesn't do the latter.

Swiftblade is a class that breaks the rules. It doesn't advance casting the way a gish class should. It doesn't give you oodles of useful buffs or battlefield control options. It does one thing.

It makes you helluva fast.

And it does it well. So well, in fact, that people are willing to ignore how it limits your options, because the one option it gives you is pretty darn good. But you're trying to turn Swiftblade into a gish, and it's just not that. If you want to play a Swiftblade, play a Swiftblade. Put it onto a healthy melee chassis and cut loose with haste-charged melee goodness. You're tying yourself into knots to do something else.

So let's move past that. What you're trying to do is to get a high CL and a high IL. There are two ways to do this.

1. Gestalt. Put an IL class on one side and a CL class on the other, and go to town. Problem solved.

2. Grab a class that advances both CL and IL at the same time. If you're not willing to explore homebrew, that basically gives you two choices: Jade Phoenix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator. RKV advances divine casting, so that's no good for you. And you don't want JPM, so that's no good for you.

You've explicitly stated that you don't want the only thing, outside of gestalt, that can get you what you say you want. Do you see why this is a problem?

The only way to get high-level spells is through the appropriate CL. The only way to get high-level maneuvers is to meet the IL requirement. The only way to get both is with a class that advances both - a class you refuse to take.

Under that premise, no, your proposed build is not possible.

[ben-zayb]

Alright. I was reading that PrC count for full IL not half. Good to know that they also only count half. I've read both Handbooks actually, I guess what I'm trying to do is get High level spells and Manuevers without Jade Phoenix Mage. I know that Swiftblade isn't super conductive to that as it loses 4 CL over ten levels, but that's why I ask here. I'm willing to work a bit with the build as I want to play the martial adapt gish, which the handbooks don't but lightly touch on, both with Jade Phoenix Mage. I'm still learning ToB so that doesn't help my confusion with this build.

So to reiterate, I'm looking to get high level spells and maneuvers without using Jade Phoenix Mage, but using Swiftblade. I can get TWF from a feat, to cover that part of the build, or I could drop TWF for something else. As I've said, only the martial adapt and Swiftblade are set in stone. How many levels of each is a different matter.Take 2 then...

Unlike Caster Level progression, IL determination has a peculiarity that it is based on Class Levels (either x1 or x0.5). This causes some cheddar with the addition of Bloodlines, which counts as class levels in all your classes (including PrC). A Major Bloodline counts as 3 class lvl, on ALL classes. And with multiple one-level dips, they all count as four class levels for purposes of IL. So with that, the build is:


(Any Major Bloodline) 3/ Beholder Mage 2/ Mindbender 1/ Paragnostic Disciple 1/ Loremaster 1/ Swiftblade 10/ Archmage 1/ Warblade 1
BM levels count twice for CL, so that's CL24. The IL for that is:
Beholder Mage: 0.5*(2+3) = 2.5
Mindbender: 0.5*(1+3) = 2
Paragnostic Disciple: 0.5*(1+3) = 2
Loremaster: 0.5*(1+3) = 2
Swiftblade: 0.5*(10+3) = 6.5
Archmage: 0.5*(1+3) = 2
Warblade: 1*(1+3) = 4
TOTAL: 21

You can trade 1 of the dips for one more Warblade level for IL20, or another initiator class (Swordsage or Crusader) for Warblade IL 21, and Crusader/Swordsage IL19.

[WhamBamSam]

I could be wrong, but I didn't think double 9s in Spells and Manoeuvres was possible.
I thought that 9/8, either way, was the best anyone had ever achieved.If you count fast progression casters then you can manage it without huge difficulty.

Clostered Cleric 1/Warblade 3/Crusader 4/Divine Crusader of Wee Jas 1/Prestige Paladin 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 works perfectly well. If Wee Jas is dead in your setting then maybe Swordsage 4/Crusader 1/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Warblade 1/Crusader +1/Swordsage +1.

Sublime Chord only works if you can cheese your way in with Sanctum Spell or something. If you can, then Bard 4/Crusader 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 2/Jade Phoenix Mage +8 just barely makes 9th level spells and IL 17 with a new maneuver known at 20th level.

[Honeko]

You're not going to get high level maneuvers and spells without using Jade Phoenix Mage or using Pun-Pun level or extremely cheesy tricks.
This is mainly what I was looking for. For this character I don't think Desert Wind or Devoted Spirit Manuevers work well, thus no Jade Phoenix Mage. I was trying to see if anyone knew of a non-homebrew Jade Phoenix Mage type PrC with different disciplines. Apparently not.


Here's a rather important point: Swiftblade isn't a gish class.
See this is where my research lead me to, from all accounts I've read, Swiftblade is one of the best gish PrC's out there. I was looking for another one similar to Abjurant Champion, but was unable to do so.


You're tying yourself into knots to do something else.
Yes, that's why I came here.


Under that premise, no, your proposed build is not possible.
Then I guess I should ask, what can be done to help improve the build without totally destroying the concept I have in mind?


Would you object if we found a way to replicate that without using that specific PrC?
Beyond the facts that my research wasn't as intensive as it should have been, and my DM already okaying the PrC, the concept was to make a quick mobile gish that TWF. So in answer to your question: I would not object as long as the core concept was kept the same.

I felt that maneuvers, specially like Diamond Mind ones, would fit that concept better than say a scout or a ninja. During my research, I was unable to find even a similar build to my concept, so I came and asked here. Also, I didn't want to step on any of my party's toes, by being too much like them, aka the swift hunter or the barbarian.

And as for cheese, I'm trying to limit it as much as possible so as not to take away from the enjoyment of the rest of the group. Plus Bloodlines are not allowed for story reasons.

So what can be done?

[Vhaidara]

The only way your doing this without the smelliest of Gouda is to homebrew a variant of JPM. We're using one in a campaign I'm in: The Diamond Greathorn Mage, which is similar to JPM, but with an earth theme and using Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon.

[ben-zayb]

I'm pretty sure Diamond Mind is the OHKO discipline. Don't you mean to say Tiger Claw?

And I think other than bloodlines, your only resort now is homebrew. Though I am not to sure... what is it with swiftbkade that you like? The extra attack? The extra actions? Miss chance? I think each of those would be easily replicable with the right Discipline (easier if homebrewed of course).

And, I think this must be brought up: Fluff is mutable. If you don't want to have jades and phoenixes in your theme, you canjust refluff it as something else.

[Honeko]

Tiger Claw feels too rage-y for me. Diamond Mind's fluff reads more into what I think the character is, quick strikes and calculated attacks. Where as Tiger Claw is more savage and animalistic. I just don't feel that fits with the character, and it'd be better for a more aggressive type of character.

The reason I like the Swiftblade is because it is fast. It's more the fluff of class that I think fits so well with the character concept.

As for the Jade Phoenix Mage, it's not so much the fluff at fault, just the limit to Manuevers you can get. Desert Wind could work with the character, but Devoted Spirit just doesn't. And I don't want to have just one Discipline for variety reasons. Though that is a small enough change that I don't think my DM will say no to it.

I'll have to run that by them. Thanks for all the help so far.

[infomatic]

Just curious, but why not just do Jade Phoenix Mage and restrict to Desert Wind? "Variety Reasons?" Your spell casting will give you plenty of variety, won't it?

[Xerlith]

Run this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?235493-Mage-of-Blades-3-5-Theurge-Fluff-lite-ToB-Magic) by your DM. It's a basic, generic theurge clas.
Its class features (except the captone) are a tad bit weaker than the JPM, but a wizard5/Warblade1/MoB10/Abjurant Champion4 gets 9th level spells and maneuvers. 14BAB is a shame, though.

There's also this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?57794-Eldritch-Knight-Redux-PrC), bit stronger than the former.

You won't be able to gain much from official sourcebooks, since ToB has no support outside of, well, ToB.

[Vhaidara]

Also, from what you're describing, you're going to want to spend feats on Martial study to pick up Shadow Hand maneuvers.

[Honeko]

"Variety Reasons?"
I will be the only Martial Adapt, and wanted to show off a bit of the maneuvers.


Pick up Shadow Hand maneuvers.
Other than to get Shadow Blade for Dex to Damage, how would that help the build?


You won't be able to gain much from official sourcebooks, since ToB has no support outside of, well, ToB.
That's a bit sad to hear. I thought there would be a set of article's that I hadn't found on the WotC website, or in Dragon or Dungeon. Oh well.


There's also this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?57794-Eldritch-Knight-Redux-PrC), bit stronger than the former.
That may actually be exactly what I'm looking for.

So Maybe something like:
Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 2/Wizard 2/Warblade 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight Redux 5/X 2
Or
Wizard 5/Warblade 1/Eldritch Knight Redux 10/Abjurant Champion 4
Or something... Can't quite put my finger on what's off about it though..

[Xerlith]

Well, to begin with, the second build is illegal - you don't qualify because of BAB requirement. Try Warblade1/Wizard4/Warblade+1 as the entry.

A simple build would be HP1/Wiz1/HP+2/Warblade1/Wiz+1/Eldritch Knight2/Abjurant Champion5/EK+X


That's a bit sad to hear. I thought there would be a set of article's that I hadn't found on the WotC website, or in Dragon or Dungeon. Oh well.


Well, it is. As ToB was one of the last 3.5 books before Wizards switched over to 4ed, it didn't have much time to shine. But that does not mean there's not enough materials (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255468). :smallbiggrin:

[Honeko]

But that does not mean there's not enough materials (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255468).
True enough. :smallcool:

Alright well then how does this sound:
Human Paragon 1 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Casting, Extend Spell(flaw), Martial Study(Shadow Hand Maneuver)
Immediate Focused Conjurer 1 - Scribe Scroll
Human Paragon 2 - Bonus Feat, Feat
Human Paragon 3 - +3 Ability Increase
Warblade 1 - 3 2nd Level Maneuvers, 1 2nd Level Stance
Immediate Focused Conjurer 2 - Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance)
Eldritch Knight Redux 1 - Bonus Feat
Abjurant Champion 1 - +1 Ability Increase
Eldritch Knight Redux +X/Abjurant Champion +4(Interchangeable after this point)

With this build I can get Shadow Blade at 9 for Dex to Damage. If I'm reading the feat right, I can push back Martial Study to 6 and pick up Cloak of Deception, and pick up Assassin's Stance with the Eldritch Knight Redux Bonus Fighter Feat. I can switch Scribe Scroll with a Fighter Bonus Feat if I take Martial Wizard. Also, I can free up two feats if I chose Shadow Hand as my third discipline for Eldritch Knight Redux, and still get Shadow Blade at 9, if I go Eldritch Knight Redux for 8 and 9 pushing Abjurant Champion back until 10.

I don't think Arcane Strike Works with TWF. Nor do I think Craven works with Assassin's Stance. I don't wanna try and add rogue levels either. Also, I don't wanna outshine the Charging Barbarian in Melee damage output, or the Swift Hunter in extra damage dice. I'm avoiding Blood in the Water as I don't wanna crit fish/be stuck with Kukri's. Persistent Spell would be nice, but I won't be able to use it until like 16th Level.

So with that in mind, what are some other feats I could take or switch out? I'll take some spell and Maneuver suggestions as well. :smallwink: Thanks

[Ruethgar]

White Dragonspawn Loredrake(intended but not outright stated for true dragons only) Kobold Silver Dragon Bloodline 3/Sorcerer 14/Warblade 8 gets IL 19 for 9th level maneuvers and sorcerer level 18 for 9th level spells. Add Abomination for a potential +6 sorcerer levels and open up 6 levels to taste.

Major Bloodline 3/Expert 1/Warblade 10/Ur Priest 9. IL of 19 for 9th level maneuvers plus ninth level spells from Ur Priest.

Major Bloodline 3/Elven Generalist 1/Warblade 8/Whatever 11. IL of 18 and 9th level spells.

Minor Bloodline 1/Wizard 17/Uncanny Trickster(Bloodline) 1/Warblade 2. IL and CL of infinite.

[Dorian Gray]

Major Bloodline 3/Expert 1/Warblade 10/Ur Priest 9. IL of 19 for 9th level maneuvers plus ninth level spells from Ur Priest.


If only RKV wasn't tied to Wee Jas- you could get 9th level spells while still having five levels to spare!

[ben-zayb]

White Dragonspawn Loredrake(intended but not outright stated for true dragons only) Kobold Silver Dragon Bloodline 3/Sorcerer 14/Warblade 8 gets IL 19 for 9th level maneuvers and sorcerer level 18 for 9th level spells. Add Abomination for a potential +6 sorcerer levels and open up 6 levels to taste.

Major Bloodline 3/Expert 1/Warblade 10/Ur Priest 9. IL of 19 for 9th level maneuvers plus ninth level spells from Ur Priest.

Major Bloodline 3/Elven Generalist 1/Warblade 8/Whatever 11. IL of 18 and 9th level spells.

Minor Bloodline 1/Wizard 17/Uncanny Trickster(Bloodline) 1/Warblade 2. IL and CL of infinite.Eh, Bloodlines aren't classes, so Uncanny Loop is out. Point is mooted though, since Bloodlines aren't allowed based on what the OP specified (otherwise, I already made a similar post above to properly abuse bloodlines:smallamused:)

[Red Fel]

If only RKV wasn't tied to Wee Jas- you could get 9th level spells while still having five levels to spare!

It's not. The book acknowledges (ToB p. 125) that you could expand it to any thematically-appropriate deity. Under the right circumstances, and with the right fluff and a good DM, that can be almost anybody.

See what I mean (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?139711-ToB-Alternate-Vindicators)? (Note: Fallen tables make Red Fel sad.)

[Xerlith]

Just a detail - Craven does work with Assassin's Stance.

[Honeko]

Just a detail - Craven does work with Assassin's Stance.

But doesn't Craven say it requires the class feature Sneak Attack? And Assassin's Stance says it grants the ability Sneak Attack, not the class feature. Or am I seeing something that isn't there.

[Xerlith]

Well, generally speaking, stances are Swordsage's class feature. You're welcome. :smallbiggrin: