Pathfinder Monk vs. Fighter [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Marthinwurer

2014-04-27, 09:33 PM

animewatcha

2014-04-27, 09:40 PM

Any chance that they might have been indirectly referring to archetypes without telling you about them first? Since you are not used to PF.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk

Tetori monk is supposed to be epitome of 'you ain't gettin' outta my grapple.'

Sayt

2014-04-27, 10:44 PM

Might I direct your to The Trial of Beastmas (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nix8?Zen-and-the-Art-of-Monk-Maintenance-A-Guide)?

Basically, the long and short of it is that monks got much better in Pathfinder. Is the vanilla monk better than the fighter? Probably not. Can specofic archetypes catapult it onto or above par of the Fighter? Probably. So in Core is actually specifically denying Monk the nice thing's it's been given, I'd at least open it up to the archetypes in the Ultimate series. Even then, PF monk's are half decent at combat maneuvers. Or rather, PC combatants don't tend to get the absolutely huge size bonuses to combat maneuver checks and defenses given for being gargantuan or colossal, so being tripped/disarmedm W/E isn't impossible.

And honestly? A reasonable version of this kind of competition could come down as much to build as it would to class, and even then, Which class is better in 1 vs. 1 duels to the death... doesn't sound like useful Data?

I also assume that Leadership is banned, as it negates the whole of`point of a class a v. class b?

Spore

2014-04-27, 11:05 PM

Monks. With the exception of NPC classes there are only two classes with lower "power levels". Cavalier and Fighter. And at least a clever cavalier can make himself into a spell less bard substitute.

StreamOfTheSky

2014-04-27, 11:42 PM

Several people that I know currently have the erroneous belief that pathfinder improved the monk so that it became a good class. I attempted to reason with them, but it has lead to war: a battle between a monk and fighter.

Rules:
All standard character creation, core only, no multiclassing, level 20.

Now, I don't really want to specifically optimize against a monk, but more in general, and I also want to do more of the stereotypical sword & board, weapon focus fighter, just to show them how much monk sucks. I'm doing tons of WBLmancy, getting flying, resistances, etc, and I'm really just looking for tips. I'm also not totally used to PF; 3.5 is my main schick. Any advice?

Monk is definitely worse, they nerfed most of his features.

As for tips...PF nerfed the hell out of combat maneuvers, I'd just ignore using them entirely. As a level 20 fighter, your biggest advantage will be auto-confirmed crits for +1 multiplier, so get an 18-20 weapon and keen or Imp. Crit. Whether you want crit feats or not is up to you. The entry feat sucks and the only good ones come super late. But...you're stuck with core feats only to pick from and are level 20, so whatever. Get your stunning/staggering crit stuff in there. Sword and board really is still a poor way to go, though, you're much better off 2H'ing a Falchion. If you are going S&B, I guess...go full in with TWF chain and the Shield Master feat, and off-hand a spiked bashing heavy shield. You can also use Shield Bash to deny enemies full attacks on you (but it might cut into your own full attack depending when in the iterative chain you use it), so that's something. Lunge is the one new martial feat in PF core that I would say is essential to have. Step Up is also nice for screwing over archers and reach weapon users, not so much on a monk. The Penetrating Strike feats will help if you are dueling the monk himself, and probably are handy vs. high level monsters anyway.

Basically...if you're doing S&B, you want these feats: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Imp. Shield Bash, Shield Slam, Shield Master
And just in general, you want: Imp. Initiative, Imp. Crit (or keen), Lunge, Penetrating Strike, Greater Penetrating Strike, Critical Focus (only b/c it's a pre-req), Staggering Critical, Stunning Critical, Power Attack

Sayt

2014-04-28, 01:25 AM

I think that against a standard, human fighter who put their favoured class points into HP, a monk could actually probably leverage tripping into something useful, so I'd consder putting your favoured class bonus into resisting trip, and I'd probalby put disarm as the other one, as while they can't take your weapon, they can take your shield.

I'd ask what point buy they consider standard, 15 or 20. I'd also ask what they construe to be core. Is it just the Core rulebook? The APG as well? The Ultimate Books? Because honestly, with just the core rulebook? Congrats, you've probably already won. And honestly, if that's true, I think you won the moment they agreed to make it core only.

Step up is nice, but I wouldn't bother in core, because you can't take Step Up And Strike (It's in the APG).

Monk is definitely worse, they nerfed most of his features.

Also... no offense meant, but I think you're categorically wrong, at least doing a side-by-side comparison of their class features (I could well be wrong about how useful they are in their comparative metas, or comparing their 3.5 ACFs and Pathfinder Archetypes.)

The Pathfinder Monk, compared to the 3.5 version, has a better AC bonus, two more attacks with flurry of blows which start off more accurate (At 20, when flurrying they basically count as having 20 BAB and count as having Greater TWF), they have more and better options in their bonus feats, stunning fist becomes a class feature with options for monks, ki strike is the same (merely requiring they have a ki point, not having to spend it), and they get options with a ki pool, flow fall advances at the same rate, abundant step is activated via the ki pool and isn't 1/day, diamond soul is the same, Quivering Palm went from once per week to once per day, Empty body changes from rounds equal to monk level to minute per 3 ki spent (Probably the only nerf, I can see).

I mean, core, they're still one of the weakest classes in the game, there's no denying that, But I'd be gratified if you could explain how you think they got nerfed?

CrazyYanmega

2014-04-28, 03:38 AM

Anyone familiar with Pathfinder should probably also warn the OP about any tricks the Monk Players might try to use, such as Monk feats and/or items that would swing the battle in the other direction. Especially warn him about non-core stuff that they might try to stick in there without his knowing.

EDIT: Happy Monkday, everyone.

Urpriest

2014-04-28, 10:48 AM

Core-only isn't a thing in pathfinder, since it's online SRD includes content from all of its splatbooks. So I think you were misunderstanding your opponent there.

Ssalarn

2014-04-28, 12:10 PM

Yeah, Core monk still has issues with things like the fact that most of his class features want him to move while his main offensive features want him to stand still, and an inability to moderate his attacks to make them effective against high AC opponents.

That being said, Tetori, Zen Archer, Sensei, Qinggong, and Sohei all offer some pretty awesome and viable options for the monk.

This was something I threw up over in a Paizo thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q3xk&page=20?Monks-are-Better-than-Fighters-at-high-levels#965). It was part of a "tank off" comparing Fighter and Monk options using a 10th level Sensei with appropriate WBL as the party tank vs. a CR 12 Valkyrie.

"10th level Sensei on 20 point buy and standard WBL (I was going to give him old age adjustments to match the Sensei image in my head and decided it wasn't worth that debate)-

STR 10 CON 10 DEX 16 (+1 level) INT 10 WIS 20 (+2 human) CHA 8 (+1 level)

Note that I'm even playing a real character here and spending resources to shore up my one and only dump stat so I can use that Diplomacy class skill at some point.

Gear- Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6, Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes +2, Ring of Protection +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, potion of fly, potion of barkskin x2, oil of align weapon (lawful) x2, 50gp

Final stats-

STR 10 (+0) CON 10 (+0) DEX 16 (+3) INT 10 (+0) WIS 26 (+8)

Feats-
1st- Stunning Fist, Imp. Unarmed, Scorpion Style, Combat Reflexes, Dodge
3rd- Mantis Style
5th- Mobility
7th- Mantis Wisdom
9th- Mantis Torment
10th- Medusa's Wrath
(11th- Touch of Serenity, 13th- Combat Patrol)

If possible the Sensei drinks his potions of fly and barkskin before combat begins, and annoints his hands with oil of align weapon.

Attack +17/+12 Hit points- 60 (IG) AC 28 Saves- Fort 9 Ref 12 Will 17

Stunning Fist DC - 25 Scorpion Style DC - 23

Even chance that Sensei or Valkyrie go first.

Round 1- Activate Advice to gain benefits of Inspire Greatness, granting bonus hp, +2 to attack, and +1 to Fort saves to self and all allies. Fort save increased to +10. Ready action to strike out at Valkyrie when she charges past.
Round 1 (Valkyrie's turn)- Valkyrie uses Spirited Charge to take down nearest enemy (should be Sensei). Sensei's AC is 28 vs. Valkyrie's average charge attack of 35.5, so odds are Valkyrie hits, Sensei takes 25 points of damage. Sensei makes attack at full BAB with Mantis boost to attempt to Stun Valkyrie. +21 to hit vs. AC 25 (-2 for charging) = 80% chance of connecting. Stunning Fist DC 23 vs. Fort 10 = 75% chance of Stun.

Alternatively the Sensei can target the mount with Scorpion Style, but depending on what kind of mount the Valkyrie's riding that could change whether this is still a CR appropriate challenge. Given her high Ride check, probably not the best idea anyways.

Regardless, the Senseis is buffing the party, making them more likely to survive and better capable of helping to pile on the Valkyrie and quickly finish her off, with a solid chance of the Sensei succeeding on the attack and stun. And the reality is, once that Valkyrie's stunned the fight is over. Her damage goes down, her attack goes down, her AC goes way down, and the party just mops up. Even if she also pre-buffs, it doesn't do much to change the outcome. If you need to, you can keep hammering her in the face with stuns and staggers until the party has dealt enough damage to actually kill her. You've got a 60% chance of effectively ending the encounter during the first round of combat. If he doesn't close it down then Medusa's Wrath combined with his Advice ability are going to give him lots of opportunities to make up for not having Flurry, and plenty of chances to get that stun delivered.

And to be fair, this isn't the best monk tank, I just wanted to roll with the Sensei idea because it was a neat challenge. The thread's also a little vague about what constitutes "high levels". I was thinking like 12+, basically the stuff outside the range of PFS, so this is an area where I would figure the monk and fighter would be pretty on par as far as combat contributions."

Marthinwurer

2014-04-28, 12:25 PM

We are defining core only as things coming from the pathfinder core rulebook. Are any of the archetypes in there? Is it possible to trip someone while they are flying (I'm intending to be in flight most of the time)? What kind of silly monk stuff will I have to watch out for that isn't in 3.5? What other questions should I ask?

Ssalarn

2014-04-28, 12:47 PM

Core only the monk is probably only a hair's breadth better than the Rogue (at combat) :/
Just to make the usual disclaimers:

1) PVP is a bad gauge of overall effectiveness.

2) Monks are at their best vs. humanoid opponents.

3) All the good monk stuff came post CRB.

Comparing the monk to any other class without using the full Paizo SRD generally isn't a good proposition for the monk. Even if you don't use an archetype, none of the good monk toys are in the CRB. He could get some good tricks in using Stunning Fist, Gorgon's Fist, and Medusa's Wrath while sticking with CRB only materials, but all of his best stuff targets the Fighter's only save that's actually worth a damn, soooo...... Yeah.

Anlashok

2014-04-28, 02:46 PM

Ssalarn

2014-04-28, 03:15 PM

StreamOfTheSky

2014-04-28, 04:56 PM

Also... no offense meant, but I think you're categorically wrong, at least doing a side-by-side comparison of their class features (I could well be wrong about how useful they are in their comparative metas, or comparing their 3.5 ACFs and Pathfinder Archetypes.)

The Pathfinder Monk, compared to the 3.5 version, has a better AC bonus, two more attacks with flurry of blows which start off more accurate (At 20, when flurrying they basically count as having 20 BAB and count as having Greater TWF), they have more and better options in their bonus feats, stunning fist becomes a class feature with options for monks, ki strike is the same (merely requiring they have a ki point, not having to spend it), and they get options with a ki pool, flow fall advances at the same rate, abundant step is activated via the ki pool and isn't 1/day, diamond soul is the same, Quivering Palm went from once per week to once per day, Empty body changes from rounds equal to monk level to minute per 3 ki spent (Probably the only nerf, I can see).

I mean, core, they're still one of the weakest classes in the game, there's no denying that, But I'd be gratified if you could explain how you think they got nerfed?

Sure thing. In no particular order of places monk got nerfed or fell behind:

- Hit Die: Same (everyone who had a d4 or d6 saw an increase, and ranger went from d8 to d10)
- Flurry of Blows: You end w/ more attacks, but at lower bonuses (in 3E, all were at highest BAB) and it explicitly doesn't let you add 2ndary natural attacks at the end anymore (ironically, any other class fighting unarmed w/ the TWF chain in PF can do so).
- Fast Movement: Nerfed to land speeds only. Mid/late game "ground mobility" is an oxymoron, 3E monk at least could fly faster than most people.
- Imp. Natural Attack: Can't take it anymore.
- Tumble (ie, the thing that let monks survive melee w/ a d8 HD and poor total AC): Nerfed to the point of being suicidal. If you fail half the time, the enemy's getting 1.5x as many attacks as you if you try and hit and run, which is suicide even *if* the monk hit as hard as the monster (hint: he doesn't).
- Combat Maneuvers (in general): Much harder to land than in 3E. Feats split in 2, with the 2nd requiring BAB +6 (sure does suck to only have "full" BAB and not full BAB, huh?).
- Monks used to be able to get Imp. Trip at 6 w/o needing Int 13, vital for such a MAD class. Thanks to the previous, "Imp Trip" is now only half what it used to be and to get Greater...the monk has to spread his stats thinner, waste a feat on Expertise, and wait till level 9. Yay!
- Speaking of trip, it had its own slew of nerfs beyond the general ones for all maneuvers. The bonus attack is now an AoO instead of a free untyped bonus attack (you may shrug, but it's still a lost potential attack overall). Creatures now get +2 against it PER LEG BEYOND 2. In 3E, you simply got a +4 for more than 2 legs, in PF, the bonus can get obscene. Worse, many creatures now explicitly state that they cannot be tripped, including flyers, while as 3E had rules for using trip to stall flyers, for example.
- Grapple (the maneuver monks are especially tied to): Outrageously nerfed. Used to replace attacks and usable on AoOs. Now it's a standard (w/ non-core feats to do it as a move and swift as well at BAB +6 and +9...yay once again "full" BAB). Now (as all maneuvers) auto-fails on a 1. Which is especially bad when you're forced to "maintain" even a basic grapple (not just a pin) each turn and a 1 means you auto-slip up, not to mention maintaining robs you of your full attack. Grapple's also a lot less punitive than before; you can use 1H weapons, you can shoot into it safely, you can attack other creatures, you retain dex to AC... Even pin is nerfed, you can't silence a caster anymore (though the concentration DC did get much larger), and breaking a pin breaks the ENTIRE grapple. To reiterate: You spend two+ actions to get them to pinned, they spend one and break out of the entire grapple sequence.
- The fact that all physical stats are now tied to a single item slot severely hurts the MAD monk, who badly needs all 3 of them. It hurts many other martials, of course, but monk especially.

Also, I really do object to some of your "plusses."
The AC bonus? It's a whole ONE POINT better. Color me impressed! :smallannoyed:
Nobody seriously cares if Quivering Palm is 1/week or 1/day.
Stunning Fist has options, but until much later on, all of them are blatantly worse than just stunning a guy for 1 round. I'd say 12th level's staggered for d6+1 rounds is the first option I'd actually consider over stun.

And I'd like to point out that Paizo gave the monsters bigger numbers and bonuses compared to 3E (the biggest give-away definitely being the ability to have lots of "primary" natural attacks, of course), so in any area the monk treaded water, he fell behind. Ditto for other martials, monk was hardly the only martial nerfed by PF, he just got it worse than most (Rogue is the definite "winner" for most shafted by PF, though).

EDIT: Also, if you want to look outside of core, the Brawling armor property is an especially egregious offender. It gives +2 untyped bonus to unarmed attack/damage and grapple checks for only a +1 market price, but can only be put on light armor. Guess what? Technically*, Bracers of Armor is not "light armor," so if a Monk wants to use the property, he has to throw away half his main class features.
*And by technically, I mean it's been asked to death on paizo's forums and it's been confirmed as such, despite being utterly stupid and unfair.

Sayt

2014-04-28, 09:18 PM

StreamOfTheSky

2014-04-28, 09:38 PM

A few points. Hit dice were tied to BAB (Barring the barbarian), but that said an advancement to full BAB wouldn't have been out of line IMHO. CM system, is, I agree, basically pretty wacky and the size bonuses especially get pretty out of hand.

But yeah, I'd qualify most of those as system nerfs to the monk than the Monk class features actually becoming worse. But that doesn't actually change the fact that you've made a compelling case that the Monk got worse in play.

(I'm trying to alleviate some of that stuff, among others, in my house rules which I'm working on.)

Most nerfs to martials in PF come from the system rather than directly in-class. That's just how it is. Rogue is the most nerfed class in PF, and just about all of the nerfs come from changes to stuff outside the class text.

That's also what's so vexing about PF. Even when a DM *does* allow 3E material, so long as you're using PF as the rules chassis, a lot of martial stuff just isn't workable anymore, because PF poisoned mundanes right at the roots. Try playing a melee Swift Hunter build with pathfinder tumble rules, for example.

If you want to alleviate the damage and "what's wrong with PF," it's sad to say that you could just blindly reverse system changes PF made from 3.5 back to how it was in 3.5 and you'd end up with better balance most likely.

Psyren

2014-04-28, 10:47 PM

Sure thing. In no particular order of places monk got nerfed or fell behind:

*snip*

There's some misconceptions/exaggerations here:

- 3.5 monk has the same language about only unarmed strikes and special weapons being allowed in flurry. Natural weapons are neither, so this is not a nerf.
- Other classes can take the TWF line and do this, but they also need to spend feats and meet the prereqs to do so instead of getting these for free.
- You typically wouldn't be getting the +6 BAB feats (Greater X) at 6th level anyway, since that is when you get most of the Improved feats (in both editions/games.)
- The flurry attack bonuses are clearly higher in PF. Remember that in PF when you flurry, you go up to full BAB first and only then are the TWF penalties applied. You can see this on the table, e.g. a Monk 20 in 3.5 has a routine of +15/+15/+15/+10/+5, while the PF routine is +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3. You can also spend 1 ki as a swift to get another +18 on there.
- Tying all physical stats to one slot, once you can afford a +4/+6 all item in that slot, is a clear buff - now you have a bunch of other slots free for other things, instead of needing amulet of health on neck, giant strength on waist, and gloves of dex.

Now let's talk buffs. Core-only:

- Much easier to get a race with relevant stat boosts in core. (Dwarf: +2 Wis, +2 Con, Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc: +2 any, all medium size.)
- You can gain reach with unarmed strikes/flurry in core (Lunge.)
- Amulet of Mighty Fists: can now carry melee enhancements, and can even do so without having a +1 minimum. Also no longer competes for slot against Amulet of Health.
- Monks get Search now (Perception), use Wis for it, and can even spot traps. They also got Intimidate.
- Tumble: Monks don't need it past 12th level thanks to move action supernatural dimension door usable repeatedly.
- Can get +4 AC/CMD from ki that stacks with everything as needed. You can also dump leftover ki into Wholeness of Body each night.
- In addition to 50% more base feats, PF monks also get 2 more bonus feats than 3.5 ones do, from a larger list (core vs. core.)
- You always have a running start and can gain a +20 bonus to jump for 1 ki.

And if you go outside core, monks are shooting lasers, flying, slipping through cracks, auto-grappling etc. Not saying they are fantastic by any means but they can hold their own against a fighter (not that PvP means anything) with proper WBL.

StreamOfTheSky

2014-04-28, 11:58 PM

There's some misconceptions/exaggerations here:.
Perhaps some. Let's see.

- 3.5 monk has the same language about only unarmed strikes and special weapons being allowed in flurry. Natural weapons are neither, so this is not a nerf.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons... ...The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Yeah, no. You're the one exaggerating now. 3.5 just says you can't use non-monk weapons / unarmed as part of the flurry of blows, it says nothing about adding naturals AFTER the flurry is resolved (since flurry is still a full attack action with manufactured weapons), so at absolute worst 3.5 is unclear if you can. PF explicitly says YOU CANNOT DO THIS. That *is* a nerf.

- Other classes can take the TWF line and do this, but they also need to spend feats and meet the prereqs to do so instead of getting these for free.
Duh? Did this really need to be said? Other classes also get bonus feats and are less MAD, so...what are you proving here?

- You typically wouldn't be getting the +6 BAB feats (Greater X) at 6th level anyway, since that is when you get most of the Improved feats (in both editions/games.).
Nope. In 3E you could get them at 1 if you wanted, or at 6 as a monk and ignore pre-reqs. In PF, you can't get the equivalent of 3.5 Improved maneuver feats until at least 6th, monk not till at least 9th, and monk is not able to ignore pre-reqs. Nerf.

- The flurry attack bonuses are clearly higher in PF. Remember that in PF when you flurry, you go up to full BAB first and only then are the TWF penalties applied. You can see this on the table, e.g. a Monk 20 in 3.5 has a routine of +15/+15/+15/+10/+5, while the PF routine is +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3. You can also spend 1 ki as a swift to get another +18 on there..
Yes, the full BAB when flurrying is the only reason it's higher. And the ki point for an extra attack truly is nice, I will agree with that. But they're still attacks at lower BAB, and are less "portable" than 3E's flurry, where you can hop into actually decent full BAB classes and end up w/ near full BAB and a bonus attack at highest. That matters when it's a class as horribad as monk. The end result is barely higher bonuses, though that's largely negated by the beefed up monsters. Also, I think a 3E "monk" that quickly dipped out to full BAB classes and picked up Snap Kick would have about the same or better attack numbers, though. Still, point to you.

- Tying all physical stats to one slot, once you can afford a +4/+6 all item in that slot, is a clear buff - now you have a bunch of other slots free for other things, instead of needing amulet of health on neck, giant strength on waist, and gloves of dex.
Bu...wha?! You're seriously trying to sell it as a positive? Ok, let's ignore MIC's existence (and its rule fix on common item property costs added to other items) for a sec... The PF belt isn't any cheaper than just paying +50% ANYWAY! Come on now! That's exactly how it's priced! (look at Belt of Phys. Perfection for example; three +2's is 16K [4k +6k +6k], three +4's is 64K [16k +24k +24k], three +6's is 144K [36k +54k +54k]) You're absolutely no better off trying to cram multiple stat boosts in the same slot. In fact, your worse off since in 3E you could say... have a +4 Str and +2 Con belt, but in PF, they both have to be either +2 or +4, making it take longer to afford the upgrade. Absolutely a nerf!

Now let's talk buffs. Core-only:

- Much easier to get a race with relevant stat boosts in core. (Dwarf: +2 Wis, +2 Con, Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc: +2 any, all medium size.)
Well, it's certainly easier for casters to get mental stat boosts w/o LA now... Monk's still got limited options since he really wants Str and Wis or Str and either physical stat. There's like...3 uncommon Str/Wis races, and not a single race that's Str/Dex or Str/Con I know of. In any case, your examples were terrible, and freaking core 3E had better options. Wood Elf, 3.5 MM1. +2 Str/Dex, -2 Con/Int. Already more appealing, even w/ the fact that PF boosted racial stat mods by a net +2.

- You can gain reach with unarmed strikes/flurry in core (Lunge.)
So can all weapon users and monsters for that matter, except they'll surely hit the BAB +6 for it before you. In any case, you're never going to lockdown a big area fighting unarmed, the only reason you care about more reach in PF is because tumble is now suicide.

- Amulet of Mighty Fists: can now carry melee enhancements, and can even do so without having a +1 minimum. Also no longer competes for slot against Amulet of Health.
True, except for the last part. They also cut the price a bit (in later errata). Still too expensive for a monk beyond getting some +1 property on the cheap. But a minor boon to the class (even more of a boon to druid and summoner, of course).

- Monks get Search now (Perception), use Wis for it, and can even spot traps. They also got Intimidate.
Ok, class skills are jokes now and search is wis for everyone and EVERYONE is awesome at perception in PF anyway because you'd be a fool not to be. The trap thing also applies to everyone and is more of a rogue nerf, and besides infinite detect magic means casters are better at trapfinding still anyway. And they got intimidate, but they lost diplomacy (which now includes gather info, too). Not that class skill matters much anyway.

- Tumble: Monks don't need it past 12th level thanks to move action supernatural dimension door usable repeatedly.
Until you run out of the TWO ki per use! Not to mention the fact your turn ends immediately after doing it, which might be problematic... Good luck surviving till level 12, though.

- Can get +4 AC/CMD from ki that stacks with everything as needed. You can also dump leftover ki into Wholeness of Body each night.
It sure must be nice to have infinite ki. Both of those uses are an utter waste, wholeness of body is especially terrible (Monk: I get 1/2 level + wis ki per day and can spend 2 as a standard to heal myself 2*level! Paladin: I get 1/2 level + cha lay on hands per day and can spend 1 use as a swift to heal 1d6/2 levels! O_o) The ki basically exist for extra attacks and teleporting, all the other options are awful.

- In addition to 50% more base feats, PF monks also get 2 more bonus feats than 3.5 ones do, from a larger list (core vs. core.)
But PF also nerfed and split up the feats and until level 10 there's no change in bonus feats. Quality > quantity. The only new bonus feat that's better than the 3E options is Medusa's Wrath at level 10, if you can set it up.

- You always have a running start and can gain a +20 bonus to jump for 1 ki.
And no one cares.

And if you go outside core, monks are shooting lasers, flying, slipping through cracks, auto-grappling etc. Not saying they are fantastic by any means but they can hold their own against a fighter (not that PvP means anything) with proper WBL.

And splat book 3E monk is still getting better stuff, so meh.

137beth

2014-04-29, 01:58 AM

I don't understand why "core only" pathfinder would be a thing.

In 3.5 books usually get banned because of availability ot having new systems you need to learn... And none of those are really an issue in pathfinder because everything is online and the new systems are all third party (good third party, but still).

For the same reason they banned XPH in 3.5 despite it being on d20srd: irrationality.

Anyways, while I haven't seen one in play, Quigong monk seems to have numerous advantages in versatility over fighters (and normal monks...)
SotS, since you pretty clearly understand these things better than me [<--not sarcastic at all], where do you think Quigong monk fits into the tiers? I don't think it has the power to be tier 3, but it might have the required versatility. If any variant of the pathfinder monk is going to break into tier 3 territory, it seems like it would be the Quigong (or a path of war class, but those are obviously too good for Paizo:smallmad:)

Psyren

2014-04-29, 02:39 AM

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons... ...The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Yeah, no. You're the one exaggerating now. 3.5 just says you can't use non-monk weapons / unarmed as part of the flurry of blows, it says nothing about adding naturals AFTER the flurry is resolved (since flurry is still a full attack action with manufactured weapons), so at absolute worst 3.5 is unclear if you can. PF explicitly says YOU CANNOT DO THIS. That *is* a nerf.

It is a clarification, not a nerf. Unless you have something that says 3.5 natural attacks are a "special monk weapon," that is.

Duh? Did this really need to be said? Other classes also get bonus feats and are less MAD, so...what are you proving here?

Not all of them get as many as the monk does. Rogue/Ninja clearly want to TWF for instance, but they both get... one or two each? Combat Trick and... actually I think that might be it. Maybe Forgotten Trick for another Combat Trick or something else I don't remember.

Nope. In 3E you could get them at 1 if you wanted, or at 6 as a monk and ignore pre-reqs. In PF, you can't get the equivalent of 3.5 Improved maneuver feats until at least 6th, monk not till at least 9th, and monk is not able to ignore pre-reqs. Nerf.

The Greaters do more than just the Improveds of 3.5, but I'll certainly agree with you that I don't mind reconsolidating them back to 2.

Bu...wha?! You're seriously trying to sell it as a positive? Ok, let's ignore MIC's existence (and its rule fix on common item property costs added to other items) for a sec... The PF belt isn't any cheaper than just paying +50% ANYWAY! Come on now! That's exactly how it's priced! (look at Belt of Phys. Perfection for example; three +2's is 16K [4k +6k +6k], three +4's is 64K [16k +24k +24k], three +6's is 144K [36k +54k +54k]) You're absolutely no better off trying to cram multiple stat boosts in the same slot. In fact, your worse off since in 3E you could say... have a +4 Str and +2 Con belt, but in PF, they both have to be either +2 or +4, making it take longer to afford the upgrade. Absolutely a nerf!

You're forgetting the very obvious point that "cramming multiple stat boosts into the same slot" requires custom items. Loot tables are a thing that DMs use, and this goes treble for sanctioned play.

I mean, if you're going to allow custom items as a solution anyway, then why not make Awesome Gloves of Monk Fixing that grant the Greater versions of all the feats to your monk for free?

Well, it's certainly easier for casters to get mental stat boosts w/o LA now... Monk's still got limited options since he really wants Str and Wis or Str and either physical stat. There's like...3 uncommon Str/Wis races, and not a single race that's Str/Dex or Str/Con I know of. In any case, your examples were terrible, and freaking core 3E had better options. Wood Elf, 3.5 MM1. +2 Str/Dex, -2 Con/Int. Already more appealing, even w/ the fact that PF boosted racial stat mods by a net +2.

+2 Str is hardly the gold standard you make it out to be, not when you can - on a race like Dwarf for instance - start with lower Con or lower Wis or and put those points towards Strength anyway. So long as the race has stats you need you're coming out on top.

So can all weapon users and monsters for that matter, except they'll surely hit the BAB +6 for it before you. In any case, you're never going to lockdown a big area fighting unarmed, the only reason you care about more reach in PF is because tumble is now suicide.

For monsters, the only ones with full BAB are dragons and outsiders, and generally by the time you're fighting the dangerous ones you're past 9th-level anyway. "Weapon users" is pretty vague, but I'll assume you mean the full BAB ones; even if they beat you to it at level 6 or so, just get in close and render their reach pointless. At 6th level you should have little problem beating their CMD for a nice grapple or disarm.

True, except for the last part.

No, Con goes on belts now, or are you bringing in custom items again?

Ok, class skills are jokes now and search is wis for everyone and EVERYONE is awesome at perception in PF anyway because you'd be a fool not to be. The trap thing also applies to everyone and is more of a rogue nerf, and besides infinite detect magic means casters are better at trapfinding still anyway. And they got intimidate, but they lost diplomacy (which now includes gather info, too). Not that class skill matters much anyway.

It doesn't matter that "everyone can do it," everyone still has to roll so you'd better be good at it too. Yours could be the one that lets you take part in the surprise round while the guys who failed lose a turn and are flat-footed. And unlike some other classes you probably have a decent wis mod too.

They never had Gather Info to begin with so that's no loss.

Until you run out of the TWO ki per use! Not to mention the fact your turn ends immediately after doing it, which might be problematic... Good luck surviving till level 12, though.

So punch/trip/etc. and then port so you don't waste your standard, it's not rocket science man. And by the time you get that you have 6+Wis ki not counting Extra Ki (which is in core) or items. Really, how often do you need to be teleporting out of melee, the place you're supposed to be?

It sure must be nice to have infinite ki.

You don't need "infinite." Again I ask how often you plan on doing this stuff.

Both of those uses are an utter waste,

Oh, I wouldn't do it in combat or anything, but being able to patch yourself up before bed can be useful in a survival campaign. Not every ability is there for monty haul you know.

But PF also nerfed and split up the feats and until level 10 there's no change in bonus feats. Quality > quantity. The only new bonus feat that's better than the 3E options is Medusa's Wrath at level 10, if you can set it up.

No change in bonus feats, but you get an extra regular feat in that span - and what do you know, 1 extra feat is just what you need to finish the split chain.

And no one cares.

What kind of boring games are you in that nobody has to jump? Or is everyone flying at level 1? Are all the dungeons flat featureless corridors?

T.G. Oskar

2014-04-29, 05:42 AM

The Greaters do more than just the Improveds of 3.5, but I'll certainly agree with you that I don't mind reconsolidating them back to 2.

Erm...I beg to differ. I'm doing a little project, and I happened to check on ALL the feats. Well, ALL Combat, General, Racial, Style and Metamagic feats (and at the time of writing, I only miss Teamwork feats). I checked them through another perspective, but the notes are general enough to work. In order:

Greater Bull Rush allows you to provoke attacks of opportunity from your allies. Thing is, this was built-in on 3.5's Bull Rush, with the caveat that the movement also provoked AoO's from opponents as part of your movement.
Greater Disarm only lets you move the opponent's weapon away after a Disarm. That's more, but not better; you either want the target to grab the weapon (and provoke an Attack of Opportunity) or let it draw a new one. If you let the target grab its weapon, it has to suck up another hit of yours; if it draws another, it'll draw another if you throw it again. Net benefit: higher than 0, less than effective. A better Greater Disarm feat would have allowed an AoO after the move, just like the rest.
Greater Feint is one I can give you as an improvement: the ability to deny your Dex bonus to AC for one round is great...though mostly for Rogues and Ninjas, or the odd build that can benefit from it.
Greater Grapple allows you to maintain your Grapple as a move action (from a standard action); Grapple in 3.5 was maintained as a free action. There's no way Greater Grapple is a buff.
Greater Overrun provokes an AoO if the target falls prone, so it's about the only way the move is worthwhile. The only way you can make a build that, without a shadow of a doubt, weaponizes Overrun is a Mounted Combat build (hence, a Paladin or Cavalier who spends a bunch of its feats on Overrun while still keeping enough for Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge).
Greater Sunder lets you deal the damage overflow to your target...if you destroy the item. You may recall why Sunder was useless in 3.5, and this is just the case. Remember that the overflow bonus doesn't apply if the weapon is merely broken (about the only thing that's...well, decent and prop-worthy from the Paizo devs regarding the Sunder feat) or left at 1 hit point.
Greater Trip got nerfed and buffed, but it really relies on teamwork: if you have someone who can make an attack of opportunity within the area, then you land two attacks instead of one. If it's you alone, then you waste your only Attack of Opportunity on it. However, the net change is a nerf; the idea is that you would make the prone character either stay prone (and not move) or make it attempt to stand up (and thus provoke an AoO, which you'd turn into a Trip, which would imply another attack from 3.5's Improved Trip).
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting is identical to 3.5's GTWF, so no change.

That means there's one feat that grants something different (Greater Disarm), one feat that's worse than the original (Greater Trip), two feats that grant things that the 3.5 version had from scratch (Greater Bull Rush and Greater Grapple), one feat that grants something new but worthless (Greater Sunder) and two feats that grant something fairly decent (Greater Feint and Greater Overrun). Being fair and ignoring Greater TWF because it's identical, that's...dead even, just by looks. IMO, it's at a loss because the benefit from Greater Disarm IMO is pointless.

Maybe the "Greater" feats are better if we count the Paizo-exclusive ones? Let's see...
Greater Dirty Trick extends the duration of the maneuver and makes it harder to remove. That's a plus, particularly because I can blind or sicken the target. Frankly, Dirty Trick is my favorite combat maneuver.
Greater Drag allows attacks of opportunity when you move the target, but let's face it: unless I can see just how great the Drag maneuver is, the feat is as worthless as the maneuver itself.
Greater Reposition allows attacks of opportunity when you move the target, as with Bull Rush and Drag. This one is slightly better, though not as great as Tactical Reposition, which is the whole reason you'd use Reposition anyways (normally, you'd use it to set the target into a flanking position, but the move doesn't provoke an AoO until Greater, so you need to focus on it).
Greater Vital Strike lets you make a melee attack that deals 4[W] damage + modifiers. Only respectable when you have a big weapon (Greatsword, for example) and/or the Devastating Strike maneuver, and it all relies on what feats combine with it.

All four grant something else, but of the four...I'd say Greater Dirty Trick is the clear winner. Both Drag and Reposition require a standard action to use, and require ANOTHER feat to be moderately useful (Quick Drag and Quick Reposition). Vital Strike really depends on what feats combine with it (unless I'm wrong, that's Cleave and Power Attack; you may illustrate on which other feats does this count, and whether you can use stuff like the THFighter's Piledriver with it). With 1 win and 3 so-so's, that isn't really promising enough to argument that the "Greater feats do more"; at the very best, some do great, some just grant stuff that was already there before, and some give you stuff you really didn't need.

Psyren

2014-04-29, 12:04 PM

T.G. Oskar

2014-04-29, 04:39 PM

@ above essay: I won't deny there are some nerfs within the combat maneuver system itself, but given that both the monk and fighter are affected by these equally I'm not really seeing the relevance to this topic. And anyway, why is it such a big deal? If your table likes them better the way they were, change them back. Like I said, I'm perfectly fine with returning the maneuver feats to the way they were before.

I took the tangent to clear a statement: "The Greaters do more than the Improveds of 3.5". Certainly, it affects both the Monk and the Fighter, and most other classes who have it worse because they might not have enough feats or the breadth of stats to make it possible. That you mentioned this (as an afterthought or as a positive statement) is enough to make it relevant, since it was an answer to something that IS relevant to the discussion; Monks have delayed access to these Greater [Combat Maneuver] feats.

So, to clear out: while some of the Greater feats are in a way better than their counterparts (Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Overrun, Greater Feint), the others either don't offer anything worthwhile, or offer something that the previous version offered by default. How is this relevant, then? SotS mentions the inability to get the Greater versions at-level (and for free, though not all of them unless you include the UA martial art styles) is a nerf, because they're the equivalent of the 3.5 Improved [special attack] feats, removing one of the advantages of the Monk (getting the feats that improve special attacks/Combat Maneuvers without effort). Your answer is what I debate, as it suggests that waiting for the Greater [Combat Maneuver] feats is worthwhile, which is exactly what I debate.

So, in short: if that's not relevant, then how that answer you gave is relevant to his answer? By all means, while you agree that they could be re-collapsed into a better feat, you don't really address whether the change of features is a nerf or not, and you expect that answer to serve as the reason why you don't see it as a nerf. Is that relevant enough for you?

StreamOfTheSky

2014-04-29, 07:04 PM

I'll try and reply to Psyren later on...

Anyways, while I haven't seen one in play, Quigong monk seems to have numerous advantages in versatility over fighters (and normal monks...)
SotS, since you pretty clearly understand these things better than me [<--not sarcastic at all], where do you think Quigong monk fits into the tiers? I don't think it has the power to be tier 3, but it might have the required versatility. If any variant of the pathfinder monk is going to break into tier 3 territory, it seems like it would be the Quigong (or a path of war class, but those are obviously too good for Paizo:smallmad:)

I reviewed Qingong when it came out (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?308138-Guide-to-the-Qinggong-Monk-%28Ultimate-Magic%29), briefly. I tried to be pretty gentle on my grading since they're basically free no strings attached options and I don't have a high bar for "good for monks", but there's still not that many good options.

Basically: Blowing a class feature for the ability to spend ki to use a feat for 1 round is a horrible waste, so any that weren't 0 ki (effectively infinite use) weren't even rated and assumed to be negative stars. I also didn't bother to rate ones that were just the monk class features (since you can "buy them back"). So I only looked at the spell-like abilities and the ki-free feats, because...those are the only ones worth considering.

The gems were Barkskin (saves some money, basically), True Strike (only when you can combine it w/ Quicken SLA), Gaseous Form, Restoration (self-only, it's good solely due to not paying gp for it), ki leech (abuse for infinite ki and make the class finally playable), and battlemind link (only affordable w/ ki leech abuse).

It basically...gives you a tiny amount of casting from a very limited set of options w/ no real gamebreakers. So, it can put monk into tier 4 around where Ranger is, maybe a bit lower than them inside the tier. Which is a decent improvement from "bottom of tier 5."

Psyren

2014-04-29, 08:11 PM

Scorching Ray isn't bad either, a 4d6 - 12d6 ranged touch stays relevant for quite a while. Beats the hell out of shuriken usually.

StreamOfTheSky

2014-04-29, 08:19 PM

Scorching Ray isn't bad either, a 4d6 - 12d6 ranged touch stays relevant for quite a while. Beats the hell out of shuriken usually.

It's not bad, but for 2 ki it's really costly. Too costly, especially at low-mid levels.