Viability of Prestige Classes for a Fighter

[Snownine]

I am currently a 2nd level Dwarven fighter in a campaign with a druid, rogue, swashbuckler, and duskblade. I do not feel like there is much to differentiate me from my swashbuckler and duskblade companions. I was wondering if I should go the route of a prestige class or multiclass to make me more useful/ stand out more. I would also like some opinions on good feats, since that is really all I have going for me right now, and opinions on what kind of magical enchantments would be good for a great axe or dwarven war-axe at this level. Sorry there are so many questions in this post, this is the farthest I have gone in a D&D campaign.

[Sir Chuckles]

Definitely.

If you're looking to stand out as a Fighter, or really any class, Prestige classes are your best bet.
What are your stats? You feats? Your equipment?

And what does your party generally do? These are all important if you want to contribute.

[Grayson01]

What do you wanna do with your fighter? What direction do you wish to take? What do you want him to do? What Feats do you have Already?

For a Fighter I suggest for Feats: Power Attack PHB & Leaping Attack, using a two-handed weapon.

[Coidzor]

Multiclassing and PrCing are highly recommended for Fighters after 2, 4, or 6 levels of the class.

A large part of what to recommend to you depends upon what you want to be doing and what sources you have available to you to draw upon. There are prestige classes that will let you pick up some magical tricks if you have the right mental ability scores and there are others that with a dip into Rogue or Barbarian you'll be able to keep on trucking pretty well or become a nigh-unstoppable killing machine of death. Or let you become Bearington Dwarfman the Dwarf bearbarianman.

As far as good weapon properties to put on your main weapon, Valorous (+1 equivalent), from Unapproachable East allows you to do double damage on a charge as if you were mounted and using a lance, and Collision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision)(+2 equivalent) from Expanded Psionics Handbook, which gives a nice flat bonus to damage that gets multiplied by critical hits and Valorous, come to mind.

If you like charging then getting feats like Shocktrooper(Complete Warrior) or Leap Attack(Complete Adventurer) is always good. Power Attack is pretty much standard to the point of raising eyebrows if you don't have it. Wild Cohort (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is good if you find yourself needing a mount that scales with you.

So, what do you want to do?

[mabriss lethe]

The short version: Yes. Prestige out.

The long version: Yes. Prestige out. Multiclass out. Do it as soon as it's feasible. Once you've gotten the feats you want out of fighter, move on to something else. It's a great 2-6ish level dip. Beyond that it's rather lackluster.

Where you go from here for both classes and feats is the question. One we can't reliably answer without a little extra information.

What sources are you allowed to use in your game? What do you want your character to do?

As for enhancements... At level 2, you're most likely not going to be able to afford magic enhancements on your weapon, unless your party's wealth by level is skewed horribly.

[Snownine]

I do not know all of my stats off the top of my head as my DM has my character sheet however I can look in a couple days. I do have 18 str and 18 con with the racial modifier. Ideally I would like to be a melee powerhouse, focusing on making things hurt with my axe. I can use core, tome of battle and complete adventurer. Another one of the players has several other books and I may be able to persuade my DM to let me pick from them as well. My starting feats were power attack and cleave, I have not picked my feat for 2nd level yet. That leap attack sounds pretty nice.

[Vogonjeltz]

What alignment? Some Prcs are alignment locked.

If you're using a dwarven waraxe (exotic weapon), the Exotic Weaponmaster might be of interest.

[Sir Chuckles]

I do not know all of my stats off the top of my head as my DM has my character sheet however I can look in a couple days. I do have 18 str and 18 con with the racial modifier. Ideally I would like to be a melee powerhouse, focusing on making things hurt with my axe. I can use core, tome of battle and complete adventurer. Another one of the players has several other books and I may be able to persuade my DM to let me pick from them as well. My starting feats were power attack and cleave, I have not picked my feat for 2nd level yet. That leap attack sounds pretty nice.

Use this. (http://dndtools.eu/)

It sounds like you could very well become a good charging Dwarf. Pick up a nice big two handed weapon and enjoy the x1.5 Str to damage. If you want to stick with axes, the Greataxe is the most obvious choice, with no reason to really look too hard for something different. With he two levels in Fighter you have, I'd seriously consider jumping right out of it and going into a Tomb of Battle class. Your other stats would determine whether Warblade or Crusader is better for you. Either that or follow an Ubercharger handbook/guide, but that may take some DM book convincing, or finagling to work with the allowed material.

[Snownine]

My alignment is neutral good. Have I shot myself in the foot starting as a fighter or is there a way to make my 2 levels of fighter work in my favor?

[Zetapup]

I do not know all of my stats off the top of my head as my DM has my character sheet however I can look in a couple days. I do have 18 str and 18 con with the racial modifier. Ideally I would like to be a melee powerhouse, focusing on making things hurt with my axe. I can use core, tome of battle and complete adventurer. Another one of the players has several other books and I may be able to persuade my DM to let me pick from them as well. My starting feats were power attack and cleave, I have not picked my feat for 2nd level yet. That leap attack sounds pretty nice.

Unfortunately, leap attack requires 8 ranks in jump, so you'll have to wait until fifth level before you can take it. In the meantime, you could get a feat that gives you extra options with whatever you decide to do- the devotion feats from Complete Champion IIRC are pretty good for this. I recommend travel devotion, animal devotion, and law devotion in particular. Knowledge devotion is pretty good for some builds, but you prolly won't be able to spare the skill points for that.

A level or two in barbarian gives you some nice options. You can trade out rage for the whirling frenzy acf here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ). I'd also suggest looking at a few of the totems here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarianVariantTotemB arbarian) and seeing if you like any of them. It also opens up the possibility of the bear warrior prestige class (from complete warrior), which is pretty awesome.

I'd advise against focusing too much on power attack charges since it can turn the game into rocket tag- you either charge and do enough damage to splat the enemy into a fine mist or you can't charge for whatever reason and do mediocre damage instead. Taking leap attack and power attack should be fine, but taking shock trooper, leap attack, dipping a level of barbarian for pounce, wielding a valorous weapon, and all the other various charge boosters is probably a bit too much.

I'd recommend reading through the melee combo guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127026-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Melee-Combos). It gives some excellent information about the various options available to melee characters.

Edit:

My alignment is neutral good. Have I shot myself in the foot starting as a fighter or is there a way to make my 2 levels of fighter work in my favor?

Nah, taking 2 levels of fighter and multiclassing into something else is pretty common. If your current alignment would be problematic with prestige classes, you can work with your dm and roleplay an alignment change. I'll second the recommendation of crusader or warblade- remember that your initiator level is equal to your levels in initiating classes (eg warblade, crusader, etc) + half your levels in other classes. This makes the ToB classes very multiclassing friendly.

[Coidzor]

You've got access to Tome of Battle? Hitting that up as a Warblade or Crusader should do nicely for the rest of your build, really.

It really depends on what feats you've taken whether the two levels of Fighter have worked out in your favor. Even if those two levels were set on fire, going into an initiating class from Tome of Battle would alleviate that for the most part.

Cleave isn't the best of feats, but it is a prerequisite for some things.

[Sir Chuckles]

My alignment is neutral good. Have I shot myself in the foot starting as a fighter or is there a way to make my 2 levels of fighter work in my favor?

Two levels in Fighter, particularly Fighter with no ACFs or extra features, is considered the sweet spot for maximum levels in Fighter. So you're wearing high heels right now, but the heels just keep getting higher as you take more Fighter levels. Eventually, your ankle would break, but that's not a risk at level 2.

[Baroknik]

If you are considering going ToB for multiclass, consider waiting til 5 to do so, as you learn a large number of maneuvers at level 1 and that way you have access to level 2 maneuvers with those.

[Vogonjeltz]

My alignment is neutral good. Have I shot myself in the foot starting as a fighter or is there a way to make my 2 levels of fighter work in my favor?

Ok that rules out some of the evil based classes (ravager, for example.)

Not at all to the foot shooting. As to using Tome of Battle, it's a question of style.

Warblade is going to mean picking canned actions, the actions you pick up will also dictate what skills you invest heavily in, what weapons you use, and what combat situations you're looking for. If your DM has the book and is amenable, there's no harm in checking out the class.

Sticking with Fighter means more feats (and more feat customization) which means somewhat more opportunity to have a scattered build.

[Sir Chuckles]

Ok that rules out some of the evil based classes (ravager, for example.)

Not at all to the foot shooting. As to using Tome of Battle, it's a question of style.

Warblade is going to mean picking canned actions, the actions you pick up will also dictate what skills you invest heavily in, what weapons you use, and what combat situations you're looking for. If your DM has the book and is amenable, there's no harm in checking out the class.

Sticking with Fighter means more feats (and more feat customization) which means somewhat more opportunity to have a scattered build.

Do remember that a scattered build will contribute far less than a focused character. Warblade or Crusader will give you more skill points to work with, as well as more skills.
Though I'm not sure what Vogon means by canned actions and weapon use.

[Gwendol]

You've got access to Tome of Battle? Hitting that up as a Warblade or Crusader should do nicely for the rest of your build, really.

It really depends on what feats you've taken whether the two levels of Fighter have worked out in your favor. Even if those two levels were set on fire, going into an initiating class from Tome of Battle would alleviate that for the most part.

Cleave isn't the best of feats, but it is a prerequisite for some things.

With your strength and constitution I would recommend a level or two of Barbarian. Extra speed is nice, and rage will let you auto-buff yourself during important fights. PA and cleave are a good start, since you will likely be dealing the killing blow quite a few times in your career. Eventually you will want to take TOB classes (read: warblade or crusader, depending on your style).

[HammeredWharf]

Taking a level of Barbarian is a good idea for almost any melee class. Rage and Pounce are great abilities and the former opens the doors to some excellent PRCs. Bear Warrior and Exotic Weapon Master come to mind as decent melee PRCs. You could go Fighter 2 / Barb 1 / Cleric 1 / Warblade or Crusader X. Generally, I'd recommend taking a level of Cleric for extra versatility and the excellent Devotion feats from Complete Champion that you can take instead of domains.

[Coidzor]

There's even some collected and codified advice for what all you can get from dipping Cleric 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0).

[Telonius]

To give a bit more specific advice for Tome of Battle, the Warblade class is generally seen as a "replacement" class for Fighter. Crusader is the "replacement" for Paladin. Warblade is the more offensive-minded class, and dealing loads of damage. Crusader is more about soaking up massive amounts of damage and healing yourself and your friends while you're at it. (Note that either class can be made to do different things, but those are the easiest roles to fill). With that many people with good-ish attack bonuses, the White Raven school will be even more useful than usual.

If you're going into Tome of Battle, I'd strongly recommend showing the Swordsage class to your Swashbuckler and Rogue. It can mesh really well with their abilities. (They'll be very happy if they're aware of the Shadow Blade feat, too).

[Snownine]

Do remember that a scattered build will contribute far less than a focused character. Warblade or Crusader will give you more skill points to work with, as well as more skills.
Though I'm not sure what Vogon means by canned actions and weapon use.

By scattered build do you mean dipping into multiple classes or having started as a fighter?

[Coidzor]

By scattered build do you mean dipping into multiple classes or having started as a fighter?

I read it more as having grabbed feats from parallel feat trees instead of focusing on a main schtick.

Like grabbing point blank shot > rapid shot, Combat Expertise > Improved Trip + Improved Disarm, & Power Attack > Cleave instead of something more focused, such as Power Attack > Leap Attack + Improved Bull Rush > Shock Trooper for a charger or Combat Expertise > Improved Trip, Stand Still, Knock-Down, [Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain,] and Power Attack for a lock-down tripper with a reach weapon.

[Sir Chuckles]

By scattered build do you mean dipping into multiple classes or having started as a fighter?

Essentially what was said above.

If you're a Power Attacking charge based Fighter, the times when Point Blank Shot will be use are few and far between. Despite the fluff, a Fighter is not a Master at Arms. He's a "really potentially good at this one thing".
Oh, and looking at your party, Warblade and Crusader are still both most recommended. Any more than three levels in a non-initiator class will make you lose out on 9th level ToB maneuvers, at least pre-Epic.
The choice between the two classes boils down to the party's habits, optimization level, DM's optimization level (is the boss a 5th level Orc Fighter with weapon focus, or is it a Feral Dragonborn Forest Dwarf Cleric with nightsticks?), and your mental stats.

[Coidzor]

Oh, and looking at your party, Warblade and Crusader are still both most recommended. Any more than three levels in a non-initiator class will make you lose out on 9th level ToB maneuvers, at least pre-Epic.
The choice between the two classes boils down to the party's habits, optimization level, DM's optimization level (is the boss a 5th level Orc Fighter with weapon focus, or is it a Feral Dragonborn Forest Dwarf Cleric with nightsticks?), and your mental stats.

Hmm? I thought you'd still be able to get them with up to 6 levels of non-initiator because 6/2 = 3 & 3 +14 = 17. :smallconfused: At least 4 levels should be good because that still gives IL 18 & more levels of martial adept to get the required number of maneuvers to get up to 9th level ones. :smallconfused:

A lot of what's the best choice does depend upon the play style of the group and the level of optimization the DM and fellow players employ though.

[Red Fel]

You mentioned ToB and CA. Do you, by any chance, have access to Magic of Incarnum? Because the Ironsoul Forgemaster (shameless plug in my sig) has some excellent features for you, and will allow you to craft gear for the rest of your party as well. A non-caster-based IF can be a melee powerhouse, with hand-crafted equipment that you can inflate well beyond the usual limits. The daze-on-hit ability from Weapon Bond will be very helpful if you decide to go with a lockdown build, and soulmelds will give you some incredible day-to-day versatility.

[Snownine]

The game has little if no optimization from either the party or the DM, we are basically just doing what we think is fun and cool without stressing too much on optimization. That does not mean I want to be a useless or disposable party member however, hence my request for advice. As for the Magic Incarnum, Red Fel, I do not remember that being one of the books my friend or the DM had.

[KorbeltheReader]

Some explanations of stuff mentioned in this thread:

All of the lion totem barbarian stuff is irrelevant if you don't have access to Complete Champion. Frankly, that gimps any charging build you go for pretty hard, so I don't think you want to pursue that as a strategy.

A level of barbarian may still be useful to you as you get rage and 10ft. added to your movement (which negates the dwarf's major disadvantage in combat). On the other hand, rage would somewhat limit your ability to use martial adept maneuvers. For instance, you wouldn't be able to use maneuvers that rely on concentration checks, such the Diamond Mind saving throw interrupts, which are three of the best maneuvers available. Plus, unless you take 4 levels in barbarian, you'll only be able to rage once per day.

Tome of Battle: level 5 is generally considered the "optimal" time to dip martial adept, as you'll get 2nd level maneuvers to start out with and you get a ton of maneuvers with your first martial adept level. That being said, there's really no need to delay starting your martial adept levels if you don't have something good to take levels in first. Four levels of fighter is a fine start before switching, but really 2 levels of fighter is fine, too.

The major decision for martial adepts is whether to go Warblade or Crusader, and that in my mind is going to depend on whether you want the Devoted Spirit maneuvers and the Steely Resolve + Stone Power damage reduction trick, or you want Diamond Mind and Iron Heart maneuvers.

Devoted Spirit maneuvers are defensive and often focused on benefiting nearby allies or forcing adjacent foes to attack you. In a party where all 5 PCs are potentially melee combatants, this can be quite powerful especially combined with White Raven maneuvers which are similarly geared toward improving your allies' offensive capabilities.

Steely Resolve + Stone Power: When you get hit, you take the first 5 points of damage and sequester it in your steely resolve damage pool. On your turn, you take a full attack action and subtract 3 points, giving you 6 temporary hp. Then at the end of your turn the points in your damage pool take effect, subtracting 5 hit points, except you just gained 6 temporary hp, so you don't actually lose any of your regular hp. Repeat every turn you get hit. See?

Diamond Mind and Iron Heart maneuvers: Diamond Mind maneuvers rely on concentration checks to deliver high damage attacks and negate harmful spells. Its 3 saving throw interrupts (Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Mind Over Body) replace your save with a concentration check, with the added benefit of making a 1 no longer an auto-fail. Iron Heart is another high damage school featuring the amazing Iron Heart Surge which removes just about any status effect.

As an aside, I would like to point out the Deepwarden prestige class. It's a great dip in that 2 levels gets you your CON bonus to AC.

Hope this helps.

[Coidzor]

The game has little if no optimization from either the party or the DM, we are basically just doing what we think is fun and cool without stressing too much on optimization. That does not mean I want to be a useless or disposable party member however, hence my request for advice. As for the Magic Incarnum, Red Fel, I do not remember that being one of the books my friend or the DM had.

In that case, especially if in character your character has a good rapport with them, I'd recommend with encouraging the players of the Rogue and Swashbuckler to check it out with you. Might even provide fodder for some interesting story hooks.

[Vogonjeltz]

Do remember that a scattered build will contribute far less than a focused character. Warblade or Crusader will give you more skill points to work with, as well as more skills.
Though I'm not sure what Vogon means by canned actions and weapon use.

Oh just that the maneuvers have very defined circumstances and actions. Picking synergistic maneuvers and stances is about as critical for the Warblade as feats are for the Fighter.

[Coidzor]

Oh just that the maneuvers have very defined circumstances and actions. Picking synergistic maneuvers and stances is about as critical for the Warblade as feats are for the Fighter.

Ehh, less so. You still *want* to pick them with a mind for synergy, but you're a much more effective warblade with almost-random selections of maneuvers(the main thing being avoiding a random outcome where one doesn't actually learn level appropriate maneuvers on time due to focusing on the previous level of maneuvers and lagging that way) than a Fighter with random or almost random or even just unfocused feat selection.

[Ansem]

Unless you multilclass, none. You only go fighter for the dips to lighten the feat tax.

[Sir Chuckles]

Hmm? I thought you'd still be able to get them with up to 6 levels of non-initiator because 6/2 = 3 & 3 +14 = 17. :smallconfused: At least 4 levels should be good because that still gives IL 18 & more levels of martial adept to get the required number of maneuvers to get up to 9th level ones. :smallconfused:

A lot of what's the best choice does depend upon the play style of the group and the level of optimization the DM and fellow players employ though.

I derped my math. I need to go to bed earlier.


Oh just that the maneuvers have very defined circumstances and actions. Picking synergistic maneuvers and stances is about as critical for the Warblade as feats are for the Fighter.

Still doesn't effect weapon choice. Heck, he said he hasn't chosen his 2nd level Fighter bonus feat. He could still grab an exotic weapon for a big pile of numbers, like the Greathammer.
It's not as critial, but still important like a Sorcerer's spells. And many of them aren't terribly situational, either. Elder Mountain Hammer is a +6d6, with the bonus of ignoring DR and Hardness. Trapped in prison with no weapons? Eh, whatever. My Elder Mountain Hammer with my unarmed strike and 18 Strength does an average of around 22 damage that ignores Hardness.

[Snownine]

Thank you for all of the responses, I appreciate all of the ideas. About my other question, the magical enhancements to my great axe, what is a good element to use? I think fire and frost sound the coolest but I am worried about enemies having resistances to them.

[HammeredWharf]

About my other question, the magical enhancements to my great axe, what is a good element to use? I think fire and frost sound the coolest but I am worried about enemies having resistances to them.

Honestly, elemental enchantments are some of the worst enchantments out there. Usually, you want your enchantments to do something more significant. For example, Warning gives you +5 initiative, Valorous doubles your damage on a charge and Magebane gives a more significant bonus against spellcasters, who tend to be the most dangerous of your foes.

[Chadamantium]

For what you have there are few options for +1 enchantments. Mighty cleaving and keening would go nice with what you have now.

Vicious might be another option if you go the crusader route and use steely resolve to mitigate the damage

Bane is good if you know the kind of campaign you're in and what monsters you'll be facing.

if you can manage to get a +2 enchantment, I'd personally go with paralyzing. People may disagree or suggest better options but a DC17 early on in the campaign is nothing to scoff at.

[Snownine]

As it stands now I do not know what kind of threats we will be facing but we have largely fought humanoids and undead up to this point.

[Yorrin]

Another thought for a NG PrC that's viable for Fighters is Hellreaver, from FC2. Kinda like a Crusader in some ways (and meshes well with a level or two of Crusader on the way into it) it's a PrC that greatly improves your survivability as well as giving some bonuses against evil outsiders to give you something to distinguish you from your allies.

In terms of enchantments: I like to stick with basics like keen and/or ghost touch. Anything else will really be specific to your build, which you're still trying to figure out.

[HammeredWharf]

I'd vote against Ghost Touch. There's a cheaper way of doing the same thing: The Ghostblight weapon capsule from Complete Adventurer. It only lasts a three rounds, but is really cheap and you usually won't be fighting that many incorporeal enemies. Keen is a good one, if your weapon can crit reliably with it. Axes can't, so I wouldn't pick it. A flat bonus that's always active is better than something that you'll only use once in a while.

While we're at it, weapon capsules provide solid bonus damage during your early levels. They're not quite cheap enough to spam, but a 3d6 of bonus damage is nothing to scoff at in a tough fight. It's especially good if you've got a build that can attack several times per round.

[John Longarrow]

Four different paths to follow:

Go nature warrior.
Build is Barbarian/Ranger for at least 2 levels each before going for nature related prestige classes. Gets you Rage, Fast movement, and some Ranger goodies to. With a Dwarf (Favored class = fighter) this works really well since you can still grab either Dwarf Paragon or more levels of Fighter to meet BAB requirements for higher level nature related classes.

Go Gish.
Next level Barbarian for speed, Level after ANY FULL BAB (Dusk blade wouldn't be bad), then one level Crusader or Warblade for anti-DR maneuvers. You now have a BAB of +5 at 5th level. Level 6 take ONE level in Sorcerer and grab the spell SHIELD. Also take Combat Casting. You can now grab 5 levels in Abjurant Champion (gives 3rd level spells at the end) and a level in SpellSword. If you can work in the prereqs for DragonSlayer you'll be able to cast 4th level spells 13th level. You will want to cherry pick self buff spells (like Luminous Armor) while keeping up your speed. From there, you can go Jade Pheonix Mage for more casting and maneuvers.

Go Sneaky.
Start taking levels in Martial Rogue. You'll trade some BAB for more skill points and more feats. Yes, you become the skill monkey/feat monkey, but even more so.

Go ToB.
2 more levels in Fighter and you'll be a 3rd level initiator when you start taking ToB classes. From there, mix Warblade and Crusader to taste. You'll get some good crunchy maneuvers out of the box (more so if you go Fighter 4 (2 initiator levels), Crusader 2 (2 more) then Warblade (starting with an Initiator level of 5 for 3rd level maneuvers).

[John Longarrow]

Thank you for all of the responses, I appreciate all of the ideas. About my other question, the magical enhancements to my great axe, what is a good element to use? I think fire and frost sound the coolest but I am worried about enemies having resistances to them.

If you have access to the Magic Item Compendium, look for weapon crystals. How strong of a crystal you can use is based on how magical the base weapon is, but they are very inexpensive (comparably) for adding energy damage to a weapon. They also have the big benefit that you can swap them out, thus changing the energy on your weapon OR swapping to a different weapon that is more useful in a given fight.

[Snownine]

In regards to my weapon enhancement question; my DM game me the choice take Great axe with the speed enhancement on it instead of the +1 Great axe of defending I found but I would have to give up half of the XP we got from the encounter (540 instead of 1080). This would give me 3320 XP instead of 3820. Do you guys think this is a good trade?

[Angelalex242]

...Defending is +1. Speed is +3. TAKE THE SPEED AXE! It's more then worth it.

In cold hard cash terms, you're giving 500 XP for 24,000 GP. (+1 Defending is 8k. +1 Speed is 32k.)

I cannot say enough how worthy a trade that is.