Best level to take planar shepherd.

[shadowseve]

So my dm(who is a first time dm) decided to finally let us prestige, my druid has just dinged lv 5 and I'm deciding on the best time to go into planar shepherd. Should I go into it right at 5 or go into it at ten and be druid 10/planar shepherd 10.

Since I'm already a NG druid with vow of poverty I figured the celestial realm ( The Azure Sky) is the obvious choice. I know solar angels kick ass and I'm hoping some of the earlier angels and magic creatures do too. It's been a while since I've read through the creatures in the exalted deeds book and paid attention to the celestial creatures in any of the monsters manual.

Now question 2 is since I'm changing into angels and such will I need the assume supernatural ability feat in order to take advantage of the magical beast and outsider beast properties or does that kinda come with the turf.

or is it better just to stay strait druid.

[eggynack]

You should jump ship now. Planar shepherd advances everything important, and its other class features are worse than what you would otherwise get. Planar shepherd is very much druid+, and that's just at the baseline pre-cheese level of competency. Honestly, I'm not all that sure what would incentivize you to stay. Pretty much the only thing I can think of is some sort of substitution level or ACF ability that comes online after 5. As for assume supernatural ability, you need it if you want magical beast Su abilities, but you get the outsider ones for free when you get the forms at 9th.

Edit: As for whether it's better to stay straight druid, it's a complicated question. In particular, if you're asking which is more powerful, it's just about always going to be the planar shepherd. That's just how the class is. However, in the majority of games, I would shy away from the class for that very reason. It's just an extremely powerful prestige class, verging into broken in some of its applications. If you're fine with that level of power, then go ahead, but it's an issue to keep in mind. It might be worth considering lion of talisid from book of exalted deeds as an alternate option. Significantly less powerful than planar shepherd, only marginally less powerful than druid, and it backs up your hyper-good flavor well.

[shadowseve]

You should jump ship now. Planar shepherd advances everything important, and its other class features are worse than what you would otherwise get. Planar shepherd is very much druid+, and that's just at the baseline pre-cheese level of competency. Honestly, I'm not all that sure what would incentivize you to stay. Pretty much the only thing I can think of is some sort of substitution level or ACF ability that comes online after 5. As for assume supernatural ability, you need it if you want magical beast Su abilities, but you get the outsider ones for free when you get the forms at 9th.

Edit: As for whether it's better to stay straight druid, it's a complicated question. In particular, if you're asking which is more powerful, it's just about always going to be the planar shepherd. That's just how the class is. However, in the majority of games, I would shy away from the class for that very reason. It's just an extremely powerful prestige class, verging into broken in some of its applications. If you're fine with that level of power, then go ahead, but it's an issue to keep in mind. It might be worth considering lion of talisid from book of exalted deeds as an alternate option. Significantly less powerful than planar shepherd, only marginally less powerful than druid, and it backs up your hyper-good flavor well.

She made the challange to me that I couldn't challange her as a dm. She isa first time dm too :-D. plus it fits with me being an exalted character.

Now would I need to take the assume super natural ability to get all the nifty feats that the angels and creatures get or does that come with the "turf".

Some of the angels look bad ass.

[eggynack]

She made the challange to me that I couldn't challange her as a dm. She isa first time dm too :-D. plus it fits with me being an exalted character.
If such is the demand of your heart, then go right ahead, but I should note that, unless she's either highly talented at optimization/rules, or she just fiats folks in the face, then you would likely be capable of challenging her as a straight druid. If you want to challenge her to the maximum degree though, I guess planar shepherd would work towards that goal.


Now would I need to take the assume super natural ability to get all the nifty feats that the angels and creatures get or does that come with the "turf".
As I've noted, the ability that grants outsider forms explicitly grants supernatural abilities of those forms, along with extraordinary and spell-likes. Magical beast do not get the same privilege, so if you're seeking Su's from those forms, you'll need the feat. I'm not sure whether you'd get feats from the Ex abilities, and if you do, it's unlikely to be all of them. It likely depends on the creature. In any case, if you can't get the feats from that, then you probably won't get them from anywhere else either.

[shadowseve]

If such is the demand of your heart, then go right ahead, but I should note that, unless she's either highly talented at optimization/rules, or she just fiats folks in the face, then you would likely be capable of challenging her as a straight druid. If you want to challenge her to the maximum degree though, I guess planar shepherd would work towards that goal.

As I've noted, the ability that grants outsider forms explicitly grants supernatural abilities of those forms, along with extraordinary and spell-likes. Magical beast do not get the same privilege, so if you're seeking Su's from those forms, you'll need the feat. I'm not sure whether you'd get feats from the Ex abilities, and if you do, it's unlikely to be all of them. It likely depends on the creature. In any case, if you can't get the feats from that, then you probably won't get them from anywhere else either.

I didn't see your reply on the assume super nat ability at first sorry about that.

She is a good friend who already knows that I like to min/max to the last degree, we raided in world of Warcraft together, so she expects that. we like to rival each other, It's part of our friendship so she wouldn't get pissed. She might throw a book at me but she would laugh while doing so.

Thanks for the advice.

[georgie_leech]

For posterity, keep a running total of the number of times your friend goes "wait, what?" or some other variation of "that can't be right." I suspect that if she's playing by the recommended guidelines like CR and Encounter size, and you play carefully, she'll have a hard time responding. If, on the other hand, she has no problem with sending out over CR'd challenges, she can always win by virtue of extra resources, even with something as brute force as "Here are two carbon copies of you that want you dead. Enjoy."

[shadowseve]

For posterity, keep a running total of the number of times your friend goes "wait, what?" or some other variation of "that can't be right." I suspect that if she's playing by the recommended guidelines like CR and Encounter size, and you play carefully, she'll have a hard time responding. If, on the other hand, she has no problem with sending out over CR'd challenges, she can always win by virtue of extra resources, even with something as brute force as "Here are two carbon copies of you that want you dead. Enjoy."

Ice assassin would always work but she doesn't know about that nor would I tell her. Lol. The party is nothing but tier 1 classes. Druid, wizard, and a cleric so it's going to be a heck of a ride as we go.

I think the cleric is going

cleric/crusader/ruby knight vindicator so the Dm is going to have her work cut out at higher levels anyways.

[Chronos]

Should I go into it right at 5 or go into it at ten and be druid 10/planar shepherd 10.
Either way, you're going to be druid 10/planar shepherd 10 (assuming you reach level 20). You'll run out of levels of planar shepherd eventually, and have to take something else... And the only thing that really makes sense for that something else is more druid. So it's really just a question of what order you take your levels in.

[TrueJordan]

The only thing planar shepherd doesn't progress as druid is the ability to Wild Shape into a plant at level 11... but you can already do that at level 2 of planar shepherd since you're allowed to apply templates, so as long as you choose one that you can apply the shadow template (such as Plane of Dreams or Shadow Realm) then any anything becomes a Magical Beast, as far as I remember.

Oh, but you're doing celestial stuff, so you'd have to wait till level 9 Planar Shepherd to turn into anything you want forever.

[Sian]

Playing Planar Shepherd is kinda like showing up to a bar brawl with a suitcase nuclear bomb

[shadowseve]

The only thing planar shepherd doesn't progress as druid is the ability to Wild Shape into a plant at level 11... but you can already do that at level 2 of planar shepherd since you're allowed to apply templates, so as long as you choose one that you can apply the shadow template (such as Plane of Dreams or Shadow Realm) then any anything becomes a Magical Beast, as far as I remember.

Oh, but you're doing celestial stuff, so you'd have to wait till level 9 Planar Shepherd to turn into anything you want forever.

I didn't think the planar shepherd progressed say like the ability to get wild shape huge, tiny, and large I just thought it stacked as far as times per day that I can use it?

[eggynack]

I didn't think the planar shepherd progressed say like the ability to get wild shape huge, tiny, and large I just thought it stacked as far as times per day that I can use it?
No, the wild shape ability explicitly advances uses/day, HD, and size.

[shadowseve]

No, the wild shape ability explicitly advances uses/day, HD, and size.

you are right, I didn't read all of the description.

[shadowseve]

No, the wild shape ability explicitly advances uses/day, HD, and size.


You have been very helpful to me in my journey as a first time druid. Thanks!!

[georgie_leech]

You have been very helpful to me in my journey as a first time druid. Thanks!!

Eggy's the resident expert on all things Druid. Speaking of which, were you still working on the handbook Eggynack? Or was it posted while I was lacking internet for a while. :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

Eggy's the resident expert on all things Druid. Speaking of which, were you still working on the handbook Eggynack? Or was it posted while I was lacking internet for a while. :smallbiggrin:
Still working on it. It's currently running at 81,472 words. I could PM over a copy, if you'd like.

[georgie_leech]

Still working on it. It's currently running at 81,472 words. I could PM over a copy, if you'd like.

Heh, as interested as I am, that's a bit wordy for my current plate; I've already got not one but two RL friends that want me to look at/edit stories they're writing. :smalleek:

[shadowseve]

Still working on it. It's currently running at 81,472 words. I could PM over a copy, if you'd like.

I would def like a copy.

I have two more questions.

I'm stuck between taking Fell Drain and ocular spell as feats. Fell drain looks wicked useful to use especially with spells that do damage each round, ocular looks pretty nice as well. Any benefit to one vs the other? I'm leaning more towards fell, the level drain is nice.

Also regarding taking Wild shape (elemental or outsider) at lv 9 planar shepherd. I know that taking some of the angel forms my BAB will be lower than the angels I'm turning into, I know they can cast as a cleric so divine power helps with that, not to mention all the other crap they get along with the casting. This may be me just being picky Now since I won't have the benefit of Divine Mete Persist cheese, would it be possible to to "borrow" a permanency scroll from the wizard, cast divine power, and hope I roll a dang good check on my use magical device. or is there an easier way? Solar angels get permanency, but I won't be getting that dude until lv 22 if we even make it that far.

[Immabozo]

I'm not sure whether you'd get feats from the Ex abilities, and if you do, it's unlikely to be all of them. It likely depends on the creature. In any case, if you can't get the feats from that, then you probably won't get them from anywhere else either.

Feats and skills are [Ex} abilities, so if you get [Ex} abilities, you get all the feats and skills of the form. Not though, they are not [Ex} attacks. Although I am sure an argument could be made for PA and the like.


Playing Planar Shepherd is kinda like showing up to a bar brawl with a suitcase nuclear bomb

It really depends on the plane of choice. the fast time planes are bringing a nuke to a knife fight. But Celestia is not one of those, as I recall. Just some very good forms to take the shape of.

Check out the Planar Shepherd Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1081076)

[eggynack]

I would def like a copy.
Will do.

I'm stuck between taking Fell Drain and ocular spell as feats. Fell drain looks wicked useful to use especially with spells that do damage each round, ocular looks pretty nice as well. Any benefit to one vs the other? I'm leaning more towards fell, the level drain is nice.
I haven't really significantly assessed either for druid use, as druids are not really the best class for metamagic abuse. I'm mostly familiar with ocular spell through the various cheese inherent to the feat, and I've yet to see significant analysis of what parts of that cheese druids get access to. As for fell drain, it's certainly an interesting feat, though I don't think druids get the spells that work best for it, like sonic snap and magic missile. I suppose you could run it with creeping cold or call lightning, but I don't think those work as well, due to their more conditional nature, and their higher spell level. It's still a rather nifty chunk of metamagic.


Also regarding taking Wild shape (elemental or outsider) at lv 9 planar shepherd. I know that taking some of the angel forms my BAB will be lower than the angels I'm turning into, I know they can cast as a cleric so divine power helps with that, not to mention all the other crap they get along with the casting. This may be me just being picky Now since I won't have the benefit of Divine Mete Persist cheese, would it be possible to to "borrow" a permanency scroll from the wizard, cast divine power, and hope I roll a dang good check on my use magical device. or is there an easier way? Solar angels get permanency, but I won't be getting that dude until lv 22 if we even make it that far.
In this particular case, it is irrelevant. Divine power is not on the list of spells that can be used with permanency.


Feats and skills are [Ex} abilities, so if you get [Ex} abilities, you get all the feats and skills of the form. Not though, they are not [Ex} attacks. Although I am sure an argument could be made for PA and the like.
It doesn't really matter whether they're Ex special attacks or not in this case, as planar shepherd's Ex ability access is all inclusive.

[Immabozo]

It doesn't really matter whether they're Ex special attacks or not in this case, as planar shepherd's Ex ability access is all inclusive.

Fair enough

[shadowseve]

Will do.

I haven't really significantly assessed either for druid use, as druids are not really the best class for metamagic abuse. I'm mostly familiar with ocular spell through the various cheese inherent to the feat, and I've yet to see significant analysis of what parts of that cheese druids get access to. As for fell drain, it's certainly an interesting feat, though I don't think druids get the spells that work best for it, like sonic snap and magic missile. I suppose you could run it with creeping cold or call lightning, but I don't think those work as well, due to their more conditional nature, and their higher spell level. It's still a rather nifty chunk of metamagic.

In this particular case, it is irrelevant. Divine power is not on the list of spells that can be used with permanency.


It doesn't really matter whether they're Ex special attacks or not in this case, as planar shepherd's Ex ability access is all inclusive.


yeah I didn't know if divine power could work that way, would be pretty op. Fell drain could be used with decomposition from the spell compendium but that's kinda taking my exalted character down a darker path then I may want to go. It may not be inherently called "evil", but it sure feels that way. I may take ocular spell to use some cheese with that. I do want the rp elements to line up with her abilities.

So for getting the angels BAB I guess using divine power and other buffs, which I know are some are insane, will have to do.

Man thanks again for all the help. I know I'm asking a ton of questions but this is really proving useful. Thanks also for the handbook. I'll add it to the one's I've looked at already.

Now time to take a break from this forum and finish writing a paper for my class lol.

[shadowseve]

Feats and skills are [Ex} abilities, so if you get [Ex} abilities, you get all the feats and skills of the form. Not though, they are not [Ex} attacks. Although I am sure an argument could be made for PA and the like.



It really depends on the plane of choice. the fast time planes are bringing a nuke to a knife fight. But Celestia is not one of those, as I recall. Just some very good forms to take the shape of.

Check out the Planar Shepherd Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1081076)


Yeah I read that handbook the fast time is border line broken. I wanted some cheese that really fit the theme of my character, add some nice power, and not create Pun Pun, or Chuck the ruby red knight vindicator.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2548.0

That's just too crazy.

[georgie_leech]

Chuck the ruby red knight vindicator.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2548.0

That's just too crazy.

Good lord I'd forgotten about that guy. Running faster than the speed of light FTW.

[Chronos]

While there is an argument that, per the rules, you can get the spellcasting of the forms you turn into...

You really shouldn't be using that rule, and your DM shouldn't let you try. Even by the standards of the planar shepherd, that's crazy broken.

[Immabozo]

Yeah I read that handbook the fast time is border line broken. I wanted some cheese that really fit the theme of my character, add some nice power, and not create Pun Pun, or Chuck the ruby red knight vindicator.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2548.0

That's just too crazy.

O.O wow....

[shadowseve]

While there is an argument that, per the rules, you can get the spellcasting of the forms you turn into...

You really shouldn't be using that rule, and your DM shouldn't let you try. Even by the standards of the planar shepherd, that's crazy broken.

Then what would be the point in taking the angel from the celestial realm or any other outsider? I might as well play strait druid if that was the case.

If you deny the class one of the core features that make the class special, why even have the class. A good dm can challenge any pc. Anything a player can throw a dm can throw right back.

[Chronos]

Angels have a lot of other abilities besides their spells. Planar Shepherds still get spell-like abilities, right? Those alone are enough to make an angel worthwhile.

[shadowseve]

Angels have a lot of other abilities besides their spells. Planar Shepherds still get spell-like abilities, right? Those alone are enough to make an angel worthwhile.

If a dm nerfed a core feature to a class with out discussing it with me first, or without good justification, I would quite the campaign.

The abilities granted by that realm, while powerful, aren't game breaking by any means. But alas we will have to agree to disagree.

[eggynack]

If a dm nerfed a core feature to a class with out discussing it with me first, or without good justification, I would quite the campaign.

The abilities granted by that realm, while powerful, aren't game breaking by any means. But alas we will have to agree to disagree.
I think you're making too much of this. Casting on outsider forms is nowhere near a core feature of the class, and there are perfectly reasonable interpretations of the text that says you don't get it. I mean, seriously, you're spending a feat that doesn't even qualify as a tax, and you get a mass of very powerful class features, including perfect advancement of casting and the animal companion, more than perfect wild shape advancement, and planar bubble, which can be borked as all hell. To make this perfectly clear, my assessment of planar shepherd as an overpowered class, verging on broken, changes not a whit on the basis of this outsider spells thing.

[shadowseve]

I think you're making too much of this. Casting on outsider forms is nowhere near a core feature of the class, and there are perfectly reasonable interpretations of the text that says you don't get it. I mean, seriously, you're spending a feat that doesn't even qualify as a tax, and you get a mass of very powerful class features, including perfect advancement of casting and the animal companion, more than perfect wild shape advancement, and planar bubble, which can be borked as all hell. To make this perfectly clear, my assessment of planar shepherd as an overpowered class, verging on broken, changes not a whit on the basis of this outsider spells thing.

fair enough. You as always make a great point.

[Agamemmnoth]

fair enough. You as always make a great point.

Dude you just got smacked down. You should feel bad.

Some good advice here as I was thinking about doing this with my druid.

[eggynack]

Dude you just got smacked down. You should feel bad.

Man, ya shouldn't feel bad about being wrong about stuff. I've been wrong about crazy amounts of stuff, some of it very much druid related, some of it completely unrelated to druids, and a small portion of it probably in the last 24 hours. As Jake the Dog once said, "suckin' at somethin' is the first step towards bein' sorta good at somethin'."

[shadowseve]

Man, ya shouldn't feel bad about being wrong about stuff. I've been wrong about crazy amounts of stuff, some of it very much druid related, some of it completely unrelated to druids, and a small portion of it probably in the last 24 hours. As Jake the Dog once said, "suckin' at somethin' is the first step towards bein' sorta good at somethin'."


I think that dude was just being immature. I really appreciate your help with everything though Eggy. So I'm actually thinking of not going down this road. I don't think anyone else is taking a prestige and it does kinda make me wonder about me being overpowered. Cleric and a wizard are my companions. I guess I'll talk to them tomorrow to see if they're ok with me going this route and them being a little overshadowed. Granted both wizard and cleric are tier 1 but so is a strait druid.

At higher levels how much would I overshadow them?

[HammeredWharf]

At higher levels how much would I overshadow them?

Depends on how much they optimize within their classes, but generally yes. If they're not taking prestige classes, they're probably not optimizing much. In that case, you'd be grossly overpowered compared to them.

[shadowseve]

Depends on how much they optimize within their classes, but generally yes. If they're not taking prestige classes, they're probably not optimizing much. In that case, you'd be grossly overpowered compared to them.

My wife is the cleric and she really doesn't care about min/maxing like I do. She loves the story and rp much more. Marcus, the wizard, loves to min/max and we both love bouncing ideas off of each other. I know nothing of wizards so I have no idea what he's going to do. This is his first time as a wizard so I doubt he really knows what to do. We just hit level 5 so... we're not that far into it yet.

This is why I want to decide now on how deep down the rabbit hole I want to go.
I typically play angelic/ holy characters anyways. I'm a christian :smallbiggrin: so angels are kinda up my ally. What can i say. :D

I don't want to completely isolate them either and make them feel useless.

[HammeredWharf]

Luckily for you, Syrania isn't the greatest of planes. The angels have some powerful abilities, but they're not completely broken like Efreeti. Its planar traits are also not overpowered. Not that the ability to spam 7th level spells at will on level 14 is balanced, but it's not as ridiculous as free wishes and you only get free wishes from Solar, which is an Epic form.

[shadowseve]

Luckily for you, Syrania isn't the greatest of planes. The angels have some powerful abilities, but they're not completely broken like Efreeti. Its planar traits are also not overpowered. Not that the ability to spam 7th level spells at will on level 14 is balanced, but it's not as ridiculous as free wishes and you only get free wishes from Solar, which is an Epic form.


Yeah I also didn't want dream as the whole 10/1 round ratio was a bit crazy. So since my druid is exalted anyways, taking a vow of poverty, the celestial realm made better sense. it seemed like a good plane that wasn't too "borked".

Yeah solar is viscous. though I'll be 22 before I can take that bad boy, I doubt we'll make it that far.

[Lokd0wn]

Yeah I also didn't want dream as the whole 10/1 round ratio was a bit crazy. So since my druid is exalted anyways, taking a vow of poverty, the celestial realm made better sense. it seemed like a good plane that wasn't too "borked".

To be honest you're not going to get the craziness of Wild Shaping into Angels with all of their goodies until level 14 anyway. At that level a full caster is pretty nasty anyway and if you're taking VoP then unless you're in a low wealth game the fistful of special abilities and spell-likes will be somewhat balanced out as long as you keep yourself in check. A more pertinent question will be what magical beasts will be available to you. Planar Shepherd does specifically state that templated creatures do count so it's something you'll really have to thrash out with your DM. Do remember that you don't the Ex, Su or spell-likes from the magical beast Wild Shape option (although do bear in mind you can get Ex and Su abilities via Exalted Wild Shape).

[shadowseve]

To be honest you're not going to get the craziness of Wild Shaping into Angels with all of their goodies until level 14 anyway. At that level a full caster is pretty nasty anyway and if you're taking VoP then unless you're in a low wealth game the fistful of special abilities and spell-likes will be somewhat balanced out as long as you keep yourself in check. A more pertinent question will be what magical beasts will be available to you. Planar Shepherd does specifically state that templated creatures do count so it's something you'll really have to thrash out with your DM. Do remember that you don't the Ex, Su or spell-likes from the magical beast Wild Shape option (although do bear in mind you can get Ex and Su abilities via Exalted Wild Shape).


I do plan on taking exalted wild shape once able as a druid. This is a lower money campaign but there is plenty of magic items around it seems. My wife is getting rid of the cleric for a crusader, which I've never built a lock down crusader before so I'll def be opening up a separate thread for help with that.