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Shadow of the Sun
2007-02-10, 01:01 AM
I am just wondering, is there a Magic: the Gathering RPG yet, and if there isn't, why not? I can see a lot of creative potential for some interesting stuff, and a new campaign would turn up every 2 years or so. The only problem I could see is he magic system, but they already have races, an excellent alignment system (the colours) and the classes would be fairly easy to make.

I could see this as a derivative of GURPS, but it would be a hell of a lot better as a stand alone system.

oriong
2007-02-10, 01:08 AM
It would be interesting, but I think it would only really work as a setting. The main problem is that the primary mechanics behind Magic are set at an insanely high power level.

The planeswalker scale battles are clearly full of crazy madness simply because they're people who can summon armies and sink continents with a single spell. They're pretty nuts just by definition. A highly abstract system might be able to handle it, but it would approach something more like a board game with role-playing.

Even on the 'summoned creatures' end of things you get some nuts stuff. For instance the prodigal sorcer apparently has the power to simply slay a whole group of men with little effort, and more powerful cards could wipe out armies.

Not impossible but I can see it being a mechanical nightmare, there just doesn't seem to be any 'low level' scale to Magic.

Dervag
2007-02-10, 01:13 AM
Right. Magic: The Gathering card games are clearly set up to reflect battles between wizards who have power on the scale of nations, if not more. All those 'lands' they draw power from? I'm guessing that those have to be pretty big lands.

Human soldiers, even good ones, are flatly outclassed by all manner of powerful creatures which are in turn outclassed by all manner of spells that can kill them in a heartbeat. It's too lethal an environment for anyone other than the powerful mages that are summoning the creatures and casting the spells.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-10, 01:14 AM
That and the "alignment by color" thing changes from setting to setting. Remember the Krosan units? They're all twisted, evil, mutated GREEN creatures that enjoy destruction and corruption and like to eat things even when they're not hungry. Conversely, Green is typically the woodsy neutral types, or even good, as it seemed to be in Mirrodin.

I can see the power system getting resolved two ways:

1. The PC's are as they are in Magic. That is to say, you won't be playing Loxodon Mystic, you'll be playing a warlord type. This turns it into a RPG/Strategy game, though, of even more complexity than MTG.

2. Everyone plays low-power units. We're talking power 1, here. I have no clue how you would level up, but we'll leave it at that...

I don't even want to know how you would play in the Ravnaca Setting. "See, I work with the Good/Evil people, who are kinda lawful but really corrupt, and like to help and enslave people at the same time. Don't look at me like that, the alternative was those crazy Izzet types."

oriong
2007-02-10, 01:23 AM
I don't think the 'color=alignment' thing works. You've got Gold cards that cross multiple opposing colors after all. I think it would just have to stick with 'flavors' of energy, which may have their own tendencies towards nastiness or niceness.

I think magic could be the inspiration for a very interesting setting and game system, but it would have to happen completely below the scale of the normal card game (possibly rising as high as a 2/2 at near epic levels!). The color and land system could serve as an inspiration for a cool spellcasting system similar to the Arena book (which didn't have quite the same level of earth-shattering power as the card game).

Or it might be some odd, uber-powered version of Ars Magica, where the assumption is that everyone is some uber-mage, with perhaps some cohorts along for the ride, facing uber-mage level problems.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-10, 01:36 AM
Having read (and enjoyed!) Magic: The Gathering Arena, I believe it would be easy to create a system around which you could roleplay the game. However, I think for the most part if you're going to RP Magic: The Gathering you may as well just use the game itself and roleplay everything in between.

AngelSword
2007-02-10, 02:23 AM
I've come across a document that attempted to create rules for the Five Colors, and the classes that cast them. A player would choose one of the five colors, and would be a mage (Blue Mage, Red Mage, and the like).

Granted, nothing was fleshed out all that well (or elaborately, for that matter).

Now, I love the setting, and would be willing to turn it into a d20 thing. I've already tried, since I really dig slivers.

TheThan
2007-02-10, 02:31 AM
If you base it off the concept that the players are wizards battling each other, you end up with Yu-Gi-OH the RPG and I don’t think many people would find it interesting at all. Instead what is needed is a way to incorporate aspects of the game into whatever classes and races we come up with. I see instances and sorceries becoming spells and abilities like haste and first strike becoming class abilities for whatever classes exist. Creatures could easily become the monsters for the players to battle against, artifacts can be the equipment they carry, both magical objects and weapons and armor, lands could easily be cities, towns and other places to explore. For example:

A group of heroes travel through the plains and take refuge for the night in an abandoned outpost, when suddenly a Savanna Lion leaps out and attacks them.

Now the biggest problem is that magic: the gathering is constantly changing. Every four or so months there’s a new set out. So whatever classes, races, creatures and artifacts will become out dated very fast. Solving this problem is not easy but it can be done, you can stick with a certain block, or you can base it off of a certain plane, there’s lots of ways to do this.

Now the great thing is that we have a fully realized world, and several partially realized ones, so a lot of work has been done, in fact here’s a link or two to show how much has already been done:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Magic:_The_Gathering_characters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominaria

Starblade
2007-02-10, 02:56 AM
Im so interested in this. If you get this going I want in!

My opinnion is that you are probably going to have to run it from the prospective of. You the player ARE a card. Likley a ledgend. You would be tromping about the lands of dominaria taking on various other monsters etc. Best example i can think of is a Warcraft 3 Mod Map. Where somone made heros based on the magic cards. Your abilities came to you as you leveled up and you could buy Artifacts and equipment from the shops. It was my favorite mod accept for the fact that it had some bugs that made some characters totaly overpowered. Sometimes invincible. Wizards also made a Xbox game you might use for ideas?

Shadow of the Sun
2007-02-10, 03:19 AM
That would be DOTA Allstars Starblade. The concept I was having of this would be people living in the realm while the players are screwing around with it and having to deal with the consequences. A character in the RPG may eventually reach Planeswalker status, he may not. Power would probably not be based on the card game- balance goes out the window if it is, but the setting, and some mechanics are the same (the colours, magic etc.)

AngelSword
2007-02-10, 04:44 AM
If you base it off the concept that the players are wizards battling each other, you end up with Yu-Gi-OH the RPG and I don’t think many people would find it interesting at all.

While I don't agree with this sentiment, I do agree that a Yu-Gi-Oh RPG would be incredibly boring, since its world is based solely on the card game.

The idea of spellcasters being broken up by color is not a bad idea, though. One could rework the wizard (and sorcerers, if they fit) to make them akin to specialist, granting them benefits and detriments as determined by the color pie.

This, of course, implies that there are other classes as well. The issue, though, is figuring out how to make them make sense.

oriong
2007-02-10, 04:50 AM
I really don't think Magic: The RPGING should be based off of D+D, or even the D20 system in general.

If we were just talking about the 'low-power' setting where anyone pre-epic is unlikely to appear as a 'card' level creature then it would be one thing. At that point it's not unfair to say 'this guy could be an X level ranger' and so on. You'd basically be playing D+D, in a different setting with perhaps a new magic system (or more likely the normal magic system with the 'schools' transformed into 'colors').

However, if you actually attempt to play it anywhere near the scale it appears in the card game itself: as either a legendary 'card' character or an actual 'card-user' (note, I'm using these from the perspective of the card game, not actually trying to claim that the in-game system will involve cards : P) you need a different option. D+D mechanics only work so well outside of 'heroic high fantasy'. When you get into 'world shaking epic' then they tend to break down a whole lot, especially when lots of magic is involved. A new system would be the best way.

Red Sky Knight
2007-02-10, 04:59 AM
For the purpose of describinbg how things work in the story lines, where characters with lowelr p/t were able to slay those with higher p/t; it has been stated that the mechanics of combat have been very simplified and dont really reflect the state of the world; the prodigal would not necessarily be able to take out whole units, and planeswalkers are very, very rare. besides the implications of the mtg mechanics, presumeably, dominaria and other places go on from day to day without caring about a planeswalker, or a prodigal sorcerer for that matter.

the settings themselves could be developed for dnd campaigns, with great flavour and a host of new monsters, places and mystical places and npcs that could largely ignore the mechanics, using only slightly modified dnd mechanics to give a feel for how the mtg multiverse is intended to work

axraelshelm
2007-02-10, 05:16 AM
buds it's going to be council of planewalkers getting together to save worlds or to rule them.
We need a game of epic scale even just starting it.
I think it wont be in the spirit of magic the gathering otherwise and in the end there are other planeswalkers to fight and magical artifacts to be had.
The stuff of legend. If everythings available that was in card i would so get the Legacy weapon "i have a 5 colour deck that works":smallbiggrin:

Red Sky Knight
2007-02-10, 05:40 AM
There is more to Magic then magic. What about the Kavu or the order of the ebon hand? Flying ships and the mirari? the arenas of the cabal, the krosan forest or the badlands?

oriong
2007-02-10, 05:52 AM
I guess it really comes down to whether or not you want Magic the game or Magic the setting.

The setting is easily doable, it doesn't take much beyond some custom races, and maybe some modifications to the spellcasting system. The sheer number of 'settings' from Magic would fill many, many books but I imagine that only about 1/3rd of the ones available are actually worth putting out as 'full' settings. This can be done with absolutely straightforward D+D mechanics.

The game (as in, an RPG that in some way emulates what happens in the card game) is what will give you hell.

axraelshelm
2007-02-10, 06:38 AM
There is more to Magic then magic. What about the Kavu or the order of the ebon hand? Flying ships and the mirari? the arenas of the cabal, the krosan forest or the badlands?

Penisous deed. tick tick tick boom! all of them then stone rain forest!

AngelSword
2007-02-10, 12:43 PM
There is more to Magic then magic. What about the Kavu or the order of the ebon hand? Flying ships and the mirari? the arenas of the cabal, the krosan forest or the badlands?
That's exactly what I was saying. Slightly altering casters would be the only thing you'd need to do to attain the feel of the game without the (literally) groundbreaking effects of planeswalkers.

I guess there'd also be a greater emphasis on magic item use. Despite the aftermath of the Brothers War, people still rely on the artificiers to make life easier.


Now that I think about it, therer's a bit that can be taken from Eberron, if it's needed.

TheThan
2007-02-10, 02:29 PM
Yes I agree with making it a setting, trying to emulate the card game in an rpg is going to be very difficult and essentially pointless, when you can just go and play the card game. but I love the idea of it being a setting, where players can explore the rich worlds that have been created already.

While the decision on what type of system to use is still in the air, I have some ideas for use with a dnd 3.5 version. We could easily get the feel for the land/mana system by simply incorporating the spell point system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm), instead of the standard spell slot system, or we could use Recharge Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm) instead. It doesn’t matter to me much, but I am a bit partial to the spell point system.

I don’t think is necessary to break alignment up by color, but we could incorporate colors into the spell caster classes. For example Jaya Ballard is clearly a red wizard, since she focuses on fire spells. We could do this by making spell casters focus (kind of like school specialization), or we could completely rework the classes from scratch. This last solution would not be easy but it might be a better option than squeezing the color wheel into a system that doesn’t already support it.

oriong
2007-02-10, 02:55 PM
I think there's nothing that would go wrong if the spells were just reworked by Color rather than by School. A few might be classified as 'multi-color' as well, or some like conjuration spells might change color depending on the creature summoned.

TheThan
2007-02-10, 03:13 PM
Hmm maybe the easiest thing to do is to give each spell a color descriptor, like blue, black, green, red, and white.

For example fireball could look like this:
Fireball
Evocation [Fire, Red]
Level:Sor/Wiz 3
Components:V, S, M
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area:20-ft.-radius spread
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw:Reflex half
Spell Resistance:Yes

The problem is figuring out what each color descriptor would mean, nmm.

Orzel
2007-02-10, 03:18 PM
MTG classes are more thematic than color based. Thier magic use, special abilities and weapon and armor profiencies is base on the faction's theme. Most of MTG's settings is 5-10 different factions in a 3+ sided war. The civilized factins have soldiers and wizards. The primitive groups have warriors and shaman. Then there's druids, clerics, barbarians, knights rogues and others.

The setting and plane would need to be fleshed out by it could work 3.5. Most classes would work the same but many would get name changes and split. With the way WotC handle the colors, you wouldn't even need to change the spell list.

Really renaming sorcerers to shaman; paladins to knights; rangers to scouts; splitting fighters into soldiers and warriors; dropping turning, smiting, wild shape, animal companions, and bards; and stealing 1 spell per level from each full caster; that's like 1/2 the major changes.

oriong
2007-02-10, 03:27 PM
Why would any of those changes be necessary? None of them seem like they need to be dropped, they all fit perfectly well into the ideas of the magic system.

Orzel
2007-02-10, 03:39 PM
Turning, Smiting, Wild shape, Animal companions, and Bardsare not common in the classes they would be in MTG. They would be feats or PrCs if included. I remember when I tried to find bard references to make a Elan card. Tough times. MTG is like DnD with NPC classes. Nonlegendary folk are often simplistic losers.

TheThan
2007-02-10, 05:25 PM
Why would any of those changes be necessary? None of them seem like they need to be dropped, they all fit perfectly well into the ideas of the magic system.


Those changes are necessary to get the right feel we’re looking for. We want to essentially recreate Dominaria (or whatever plane is chosen) for players to adventure in.

Dhavaer
2007-02-10, 05:43 PM
Turning, Smiting, Wild shape, Animal companions, and Bardsare not common in the classes they would be in MTG.

There's at least one example of a Wild Shaping druid in the cards. I don't recall the name, but the flavour text was: He exercises his right to bear arms.

Selgeron
2007-02-10, 05:53 PM
what if you made a setting wherein various things happen in the world of Magic but the actual wizard/players are the Gods Themselves...

I mean honestly, they have a huge stack of abilities, START at 20 hitpoints.

But how many wizards are there...really...


Think of it like this. You have a few nations, each nation has its own patron god (Wizard player type). The god tells you what to do. So lets say you're playing as i dunno a goblin warrior with your goblin warrior party. Your job is to run in and kill some giant tree beast thats been savaging the mountains. You go on an adventure through the mountains maybe fighting some various things, then fighting an elf or two making it through the forest finding where the tree beasty is, what its weakness is by listening in on it... Then you kill it. Theres a days adventure

Of course in the magic the gathering campaign that was the equivilent of tapping one card.


So the only way it would work is if the wizards were nation controlling kings or gods or something that were entirely abstract, and you would work for them.


Alternatively you could just scrap the whole wizards thingy, and just make a setting with various monsters as your monsters and just run normal D&D with them.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-10, 06:14 PM
I did this once. The players all had to play as planeswalkers as a special sort of class I made up the stats for. Spellcasting, firstly, was deck-based. You actually drew a hand to get your spells and such. Spell levels determined what the maximum cost of any one card you had could be, as well as how many cards, total, your deck could have. Mana wasn't included in your deck; this was handled seperately, as an increasing daily usage pool. Each level, you picked a couple new lands for yourself. I think five/level (remember, these were BY DAY usage). Unless you specialized in a particular color, in which case all other colors were barred from you and you got seven/level. You obtained new cards for your deck by scribing them just like a wizard's spellbook, except that I physically hand you a card afterwards and you put it in your deck (or not, if you simply think it'll be handy for a later daily deck). Summons lasted until you either dispell them, sleep for more then one hour, or a day passes. A summon's HD was always handled based on it's casting cost (determines the dice size, from 1d4 (1 mana) to a maximum of d12 (5+ mana) multiplied by their toughness (constitution was never even thought of, and their saving throws were their toughness straight). Attack and damage bonuses were always the power of the creature, and their damage dice was calculated based on their casting cost as well (no maximum, I had to use the size charts a lot of times for the heavy hitters. Damn Leviathan...).

Spell combat was suddenly dynamic and pretty interesting.

ishi
2007-02-10, 06:17 PM
There's at least one example of a Wild Shaping druid in the cards. I don't recall the name, but the flavour text was: He exercises his right to bear arms.

That's the Werebear, so I guess it's a lycanthrope rather than a wildeshape-esque shifter. There's probably a druid shifter somewhere, though...

TheThan
2007-02-10, 06:19 PM
what if you made a setting wherein various things happen in the world of Magic but the actual wizard/players are the Gods Themselves...

I mean honestly, they have a huge stack of abilities, START at 20 hitpoints.

But how many wizards are there...really...


Think of it like this. You have a few nations, each nation has its own patron god (Wizard player type). The god tells you what to do. So lets say you're playing as i dunno a goblin warrior with your goblin warrior party. Your job is to run in and kill some giant tree beast thats been savaging the mountains. You go on an adventure through the mountains maybe fighting some various things, then fighting an elf or two making it through the forest finding where the tree beasty is, what its weakness is by listening in on it... Then you kill it. Theres a days adventure

Of course in the magic the gathering campaign that was the equivilent of tapping one card.


So the only way it would work is if the wizards were nation controlling kings or gods or something that were entirely abstract, and you would work for them.


Alternatively you could just scrap the whole wizards thingy, and just make a setting with various monsters as your monsters and just run normal D&D with them.


There’s 266 cards with the wizard type, so quite a few really.

but seriously I think the best way to go is to make it into a campaign setting.

Skydiving_Ninja
2007-02-10, 06:56 PM
A long, LONG while ago, tgva(random number), a bunch of other people, and I did some work on a Ravnica d20 setting. I wasn't able to stay in the actual game for long, though, and I'm not sure how it turned out, but we were able to make it work. We just took away dwarves, halflings, and half-orcs (gnomes seemed to fit in with ravnica) and added Imps, Viashino, Vedalken, and Loxodon. I don't think we did anything with turning the color pie into the magic system.

But it would be simple to turn dominaria (pre-Time Spiral, because Time Sprial-era Dominaria would be a NIGHTMARE) into a campaign setting where the PCs are equivalents to legendary creatures. The only things you would need are creating Phyrexians, Viashino, Slivers, Cat Warriors, Merfolk, Nantuko, and magic-y goblins (barbarians, not rogues). Then theres the whole color magic thing, which I think could work out pretty well. The only difficulty I can see is deciding which spells fall under which color besides the obvious stuff (Summon Nature's Ally is obviously a green spell, for example).

TheThan
2007-02-10, 08:34 PM
When I stop and think about it, spells wouldn’t be very hard. All we have to do is decide where each dnd spell fits in the color wheel. Now in order to do this we need to define what each color is about or more importantly, what each color’s spells are about. So here’s a short breakdown of the color pie.


White
Protection spells, healing, defensive spells
Examples
Cure Light Wounds, Mage Armor, Resistance

Red
Offensive spells, fire/earth spells, random effect spells
Examples
Wall of stone, Fireball, Confusion

Blue
Divination, illusion and other trickery spells, enchantment spells
Examples
Scrying, Hypnotism, silent image

Green
Summon spells, growth spells, nature-related spells
Examples
Summon Nature’s ally, Enlarge Person, Entangle

Black
Necromancy, negative energy spells, trade off spells,
Examples
Darkness, Animate Dead, Eyebite



Some spells naturally fall into the appropriate places on the color wheel. But some don’t but we can easily shove them into blue, the jack of all trades magic color (seriously blue can literally do it all). To make things easy we should just stick to the spells in the player’s handbook, we can homebrew or go to other sources from there.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-02-10, 08:40 PM
We so have to make a homebrew campaign based on this. It wouldn't be too hard, but we would have to decide which set to use as a basis. Mirrodin is no- it is far to Eberronesque, while Ravnica has to much of a multi-colour theme.

Kamigawa is a maybe, and I believe that Scourge would fit well.

PirateMonk
2007-02-10, 09:35 PM
The system-yes, you could just use or derive from some other system, but I think it would be better to give it its own system.

The setting- you could use the existing ones, but you can also make your own, and explain it away like they did Kamigawa- just throw it on the far side of the multiverse. It worked for SJ Games in the Infinite Worlds.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-10, 09:41 PM
Mirrodin? Like Ebberon? How?

In Mirrodin, practically everything is made of metal, even plant life. Not necessarily machines- and in fact, not usually machines- just warped organic metals and the handful of fleshy creatures that somehow survive in this (really, I can't offer a reason. Can they actually eat metal or something?). It isn't tech-y like Ebberon, it's... well, special. Like a whole world made out of artifacts.

Orzel
2007-02-10, 09:51 PM
Dominaria would be the easiest plane but a generic basic plane would be best. Half of MTG's planes have too much baggage and high level turmoil to make the idea of leveling sensible or survivable. MTG legends tend to transform, switch styles, change mortality, or random gain powers rather than learn skills and spell once they leave home/schooling.

The weird thing about MTG spell users is that they are rather thematic and personal. The only real difference between a red wizard and a blue one is how they wish to kill you. They can both blast you away or just make you disappear, they just prefer one way. White and black clerics and green druids are similiar with their off color themes.

TheThan
2007-02-10, 11:49 PM
Yeah, that’s why I was thinking of a generic spellcaster class, whereupon you pick the color theme that best fits your personality and go from there. So a red mage and a blue mage would both come from the same class, but be completely different in theme and style.

Maybe we should carry this over to the homebrew boards perhaps we could talk a mod into making a Magic: the RPG sub forum for the people who want to get this thing off the ground. There we can vote for such things as what plane to place the setting in, what classes we want represented, what races feats, spells etc.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-02-10, 11:59 PM
Good idea TheThan. I would lead it, but I think a communal effort works far better. Mainly because I am not so perfect at designing classes.

Divides
2007-02-11, 12:44 AM
For the purpose of describinbg how things work in the story lines, where characters with lowelr p/t were able to slay those with higher p/t; it has been stated that the mechanics of combat have been very simplified and dont really reflect the state of the world; the prodigal would not necessarily be able to take out whole units, and planeswalkers are very, very rare. besides the implications of the mtg mechanics, presumeably, dominaria and other places go on from day to day without caring about a planeswalker, or a prodigal sorcerer for that matter.

the settings themselves could be developed for dnd campaigns, with great flavour and a host of new monsters, places and mystical places and npcs that could largely ignore the mechanics, using only slightly modified dnd mechanics to give a feel for how the mtg multiverse is intended to work

*Agrees.*

Actually, the only thing that would need any mechanic changes at all for an MtG Multiverse based game would be spellcasting, to allow for "tagging," "tapping," and POSSIBLY color specialization.



There is more to Magic then magic. What about the Kavu or the order of the ebon hand? Flying ships and the mirari? the arenas of the cabal, the krosan forest or the badlands?

How about the world found in just the original series? Estuelk (if I'm getting my names right) makes for a pretty cool setting, IMHO.

AngelSword
2007-02-11, 05:54 AM
I feel that Dominaria would be the best bet for a setting, since it was used most by the card game, and thus, most widely known.

Whoever said that blue can do it all, what? Blue is pretty much good only at manipulating others, and others' magic. Their dominion over ice is a secondary thing, and the "Tim" ability has shifted to red.

I still say that spellcasting need only change as much as to allow colors to be fitted.

...Estuelk? Where was this?

dead_but_dreaming
2007-02-11, 07:08 AM
I guess you could create "colored mage" base classes for d20. I've actually been giving this some thought... They would have alternate spell lists, focus on summoning magic and use some recharge magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm) variant where the mages draw mana from the land, more easily so in a land of their type. They would also have strong powers connected with locations, they could for example designate an "abode" and gain special bonuses from being there if it was situated in land of their type... such as the ability to draw energy from a distance and easier summoning.

EDIT: Oops, sorry... I guess should have read through the thread... Anyway, perhaps my thoughts still have some value?

Orzel
2007-02-11, 08:14 AM
I feel that Dominaria would be the best bet for a setting, since it was used most by the card game, and thus, most widely known.

Whoever said that blue can do it all, what? Blue is pretty much good only at manipulating others, and others' magic. Their dominion over ice is a secondary thing, and the "Tim" ability has shifted to red.



Yeah, that’s why I was thinking of a generic spellcaster class, whereupon you pick the color theme that best fits your personality and go from there. So a red mage and a blue mage would both come from the same class, but be completely different in theme and style.


I was thinking of something like this. Basically Rangerized each multicolored class. Each class that would be used by different colors would gain special powers.

Fighter:
White Blue or Black Soldier= Same as Thug + all armor + Good will save
Red Green or Black Warrior= Same as fighter + d12 HD + good ref save

Barbarian:
Red Barbarian= Totem barbarian with any 2 totems

Cleric
White or Black Cleric = cloistered cleric + medium armor
Green Druid= cloistered cleric + medium armor with druid spells, spont summon,.

SorWiz
Red Wizard= evoker variant ban 3 schools
Blue Wizard= Abujer variant ban 3 schools,
White Wizard= diviner variant, ban 2 schools,
Black Wizard= generalist, greater spell focus (any)
Green Shaman= conjurer variant, ban 3 schools
Green Enchantress= enchant variant, ban 3 schools
Red Shaman= transmuter variant ban 3 schools

etc.

PirateMonk
2007-02-11, 08:49 AM
what plane to place the setting in

Like I said, it's easy to just use any setting or make up your own.

TheThan
2007-02-11, 05:10 PM
I feel that Dominaria would be the best bet for a setting, since it was used most by the card game, and thus, most widely known.

Whoever said that blue can do it all, what? Blue is pretty much good only at manipulating others, and others' magic. Their dominion over ice is a secondary thing, and the "Tim" ability has shifted to red.

I still say that spellcasting need only change as much as to allow colors to be fitted.

...Estuelk? Where was this?

Umm yeah, blue can do it all:

Burn (red)
Psionic blast
Psychic chill
Suffocation

Destruction (red, black, white, green)
Winter’s chill
Volcanic eruption

Creature pump (green, red)
Piracy charm

Negative counters (black)
Ovinize

Searching (blue, green)
Mask of the mimic
Shoreline ranger
Riptide shapeshifter

Protection (white, green)
Telekinetics
Silhouette

It’s not until recently that they began to really focus on redefining what blue’s capabilities are (along with shifting thins around in the color pie). Blue is capable of doing pretty much anything, because it doesn’t focus on a theme as well as the other colors, as a result it doesn’t do any one of the things the other colors can do as well as those colors.


But anyway back on topic. I don’t think we need to go so far as to colorize each class (we haven’t even decided on what classes to have yet.). I think that’s getting too complicated, I don’t think we really need five different versions of the same class. Keeping it simple is probably the best way to go.

I think we need to address the aspect of color with how it effects the magic the spell casting classes use. I think it’d be best to take all the magic spells in the srd, do away with the different schools (how important are they anyway), divide them all according to color, and create one generic spell casting class. This class at 1st level would have to choose a color (or school if you will) and can only choose spells from the chosen color, this would give each spell caster a uniqueness and force them to sacrifice one thing for the other. We can probably allow this class to diversify in later levels, giving it access to allied colors (for example a red/green spell caster, with destruction and summoning at his disposal).

But before we get too far we need to decide on what classes and races are going to be represented as player races and classes.

Shadow (can I call you shadow?) have you talked to a mod about opening a sub forum in the homebrew section?

Skydiving_Ninja
2007-02-11, 09:59 PM
If anyone is to make a M:tG color magic system, they should use the established color pie, and not the eaten color pie used in Planar Chaos, Time Spiral, and before the color pie was baked.

But a campaign setting of ria post-Ice Age and pre-Invasion would rock. Apocolyptic events like the Brother's War aren't much fun.

AngelSword
2007-02-11, 10:07 PM
So, you've listed ways it can do it all. But can it do any of them decently?

Who's to say that a new class has to be created? I think doing away with school is a bad idea, since they would provide a good basis on which new spells could be analyzed and placed. Divine magic wouldn't need to be changed, since gods can and will grant whatever spell they damn well please.

I think what would be best would be to determine what each color can do, and fit spells into the colors based on that.

(I'm taking this idea from a guide [which I cannot locate] in the homebrew section about placing spells to schools).

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-11, 10:49 PM
That's why I literally replaced the entire magic system with the cards. I got to outright ditch the entire D&D spellcasting and include my own without much work, and it even included specializations. The only big difference is that I forced everyone to be my special mage class, since it was the point of the campaign. I could have just as easily allowed all the normal classes and just switched up the magic portion (being easy to adapt as it was), but it fit the flavor of the setting less. To me at least.

Behold_the_Void
2007-02-11, 11:03 PM
Personally, I say screw going low-powered. Play high-epic planeswalker wizard characters that can travel between the planes and screw with each other. Craft all kinds of epic spells for them to use to do battle, and let them shape the planes to their whim. At least until another planeswalker decides to come by and kill them, that is.

TheThan
2007-02-11, 11:29 PM
I never said blue could do any of those things very well, but still it can do them.


I’m not going to argue with you there, just so long as each spell’s school is not the only deciding factor.
I think we should use the spell schools to help organize the work, otherwise it could easily get a bit chaotic.

I love the idea of a Pre-brother’s war Dominaria. It keeps anything we think up from conflicting with established cannon, and keeps us from having to incorporate our material into a world that has already been established. There’s very little known about Pre-brother’s war Dominaria, but there are some guidelines, mainly Thran Vs Phyrexia.

AngelSword
2007-02-12, 01:02 AM
Exactly. Whether spell schools are actually going to be a crucial part of the game or not, using them in development would be a huge boon.

I love Thran-era Dominaria. I think it's because there is little information about it (granted, I've never read any of the very early Magic books).

Wehrkind
2007-02-12, 01:28 AM
What might be an interesting way of setting up casters is give them a deck, like in Magic. Characters can learn spells (get new cards) at each level. They also get one to two lands of their choice at each level. Each card casts as is. Rounds of combat play out as rounds of magic for casters. Each point of power and toughness on a card is equal to a d6 HD, and likewise damage cards are 1d6 of damage per point of damage. Some spells would need to be changed (Stone Rain doesn't destroy 'real' land, but rather counters spell casters land plays). When a caster is out of cards, they need to rest to regain their spells, like the Vancian system.

Might be a fun thing to try and jack into the D&D rules with a little work.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-02-12, 01:38 AM
TheThan, yes you can call me Shadow, or SotS like a lot of people do. I haven't pinged a mod yet- school and living in Australia sort of stopped that. Could you please do it for me? Pleeeeeeeeeeeease?

Dervag
2007-02-12, 01:49 AM
I'd say that a setting is best because it can be done without completely reinventing D&D from the ground up. Trying to model the way MtG magic works would require its own system, even though it might still use D20.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-12, 01:52 AM
A few thoughts on this.

First of all, I think any attempt to reflect the mechanics of the card game in the RPG would be a terrible mistake. The level of planeswalkers and their battles is hugely abstracted. I mean, a 1/1 creature could be one tiny goblin...or it could be a company of archers. For the same cost of two groups of skeletons, you can blanket the land in plague. It just wouldn't translate well to the power level of D&D characters.

I would also advance the idea that making a setting is all that is needed, with some new classes perhaps, new races, etc. What I mean is, I don't know if it's actually necessary to divide up the classes, or even the spells, by color. Again, the level of the planeswalkers is very abstract. The colors of mana are like archetypes of the world, themes in creation. Does a Prodigal Sorceror know he's blue, necessarily? I'd say no: he's a blue card because of his tricky, worldly character. A Serra Angel is a white card because she represents the forces of order and purity or whatever. Fireball is red because of it's destructive essence.

The planeswalkers, like unto gods, can see these themes, and draw upon the energies of life and growth, or death and decay, or guile and trickery, in order to cast spells that reflect that energy. But a Firemaw Kavu doesn't know anything about "the energy of destruction and chaos." It's simply a destructive, chaotic, firebreathing monster. While the Darting Merfolk might know that they value trickery, they don't necessarily see what they have in common with an AEther Storm.

And there's NO call to create color-coded versions of the base classes. Color is not the same as alignment, but it has some similarities. You can be a good fighter or an evil one, without getting different class abilities. It's in the roleplay. Similarly, I think a black fighter doesn't have to be mechanically different from a red one. Compare the old classic Black Knight and White Knight: both mounted warriors trained in combat, but standing for different principles.

The idea of a M:tG D&D setting is awesome. What I think you need to make a successful one is pretty simple - flesh out the world. That shouldn't even be too hard because so much of it is right there in the cards. One could maybe sort the preexisting spells into colors, and maybe maybe write up some alignment-like guidelines for roleplaying a particularly "blue" character. Throw in some prestige classes and a bunch of new creatures, and you're good to go. It might be fun to throw in a few more base classes, but the existing ones have a lot of flexibility already. I'd say you could have a party with a Prodigal Sorceror, a D'Avenant Archer, and an Initiate of the Ebon Hand with the rules we've got now.

Orzel
2007-02-12, 09:47 AM
Old school Magic and the revisited TS era is very very stupid themewise. Somethiong close to Onslaught/Otaria era Magic is probably the best reference point. If we were to split up and editted DnD feats, skills, and magic in MTG's colors of this time we could easily rip them right off the cards. It's one of the few settings where adventuring made sense since there was little worldwide destruction. Just two powerful women, an artifact, loco wizards, and giant squirrels.

In an average MTG plane:
The formerly trained classes (fighter, wizards) would be mainly white and blue. The natural talent classes (sorc, barbarian) would be manly red and green. Black characters could go either way depending on which one they need to be. Arcane cating would be mostly red and blue whereas divine casters would mostly be white and green. Black as usual can go both ways. Rogues and roguish classes would have different foci based on their color. Scouting (all except black), theft (blue and red), detection (blue and green), conversation (white and blue), and assassination (red and black).


Changing the feat and class feature trees and requirements is also another idea.

Hyrael
2007-02-12, 05:39 PM
Trying to directly transcribe the rules of the card game into an RPG would be pointless. In order to get a feel for Magic the Gathering's setting, one would need to read the books. Not the recent ones, the old good ones, like The Brother's War, The Eternal Ice, Time Streams. The Gathering Dark is a very good example of low-power MTG.
The 0-level spell Light would be in all colors. White would create a ball of pure white light, red would make a flame, back a flickering purple-tinged corpse light, blue a tiny little electrical bolt, and green a handfull of luminescent fungi.

Current D&D spells would be mostly unchanged, and just put in one color or the other, with a few multicolored spells. However, it should be pointed out that certain spells might fit in multiple colors. spells that screw with the opponent's mind would be mostly blue, but black would also get some of those effects, if at a higher price. SPells would be ascribed mana costs based on their power, thouhg it should be pointed out that in MTG power does not necessarily equal expense. Compare Dosan's Oldest Chant to Vindicate.

Summoning creatures is difficult in MTG, because you arent pulling them from somewhere else, you are whipping them up from raw magic. For a while in MTG history, mortal mages couldnt figure out how to do it, until pioneers like jodah. Simple, elemental creatures are easiest, like fire elementals, shadows, illusory beings, and nature spirits. Bears are mich harder. Humans are hardest of all, and even then are incomplete (see The Eternal Ice and Lim-dul's summoned sages). only experienced mages can do it (say, above 7th level).

True resurection is impossible. The best you can get is a summoned, idealised copy of the departed, or a re-animated corpse that might, if you do it right, have the memories of the fallen. Spells like Breath of Life in MTG are just bringing back summoned creatures, after all, and zombify or vigor mortis is, well, zombifying them.

Color doesnt just determine what spells you can cast. Its like alignment, but better. Any particular person in MTG has a mana essence affected by their personalities, where they grew up, ect.

TheThan
2007-02-12, 06:43 PM
I don’t think we need to differentiate between arcane and divine magic. I mean a cleric of healing is drawing upon the same white mana as that soldier that casts righteousness on himself. I’m thinking of one generic spell caster class. The players can decide on what they want to focus on, two people with the same class could be completely different, depending on what spells they focus on, mechanically speaking that is.
Having one generic spell casting class helps us keep things balanced because now we don’t have to worry about such things like codzillas, since they aren’t even in the rules.
I think that splitting all the magic spells (both arcane and divine) up by color is all we really need to do with the color wheel. Having five different versions of each class is getting overly complicated and as spiderbrigade said, it’s all in the role-playing. However I think that because the magic users in the cards are highly thematic, it’s a good idea to let their magic reflect those themes. I mean a red based wizard isn’t going to decide to cast a boomerang spell on that summoned creature, when a lightning bolt will do. Sure they get similar results but with different style and flare.

The problem I’ve always had with working with a preexisting world is that any sort of story or plot that is come up with will have to fit into the reestablished timeline and canon, meaning we are very restricted with what we can do. But using a world as a base (say Dominaria in magic or Forgotten Realms for instance) is great, because a lot of the world has already been created. Now we can easily use thran era or even pre-thran era Dominaria as a base because there is little to any actual work done on that part of the time line. That means we are free to work and play in that era without having to worry about upsetting the way of things.

Edit

I sent a PM to Roland St. Jude, hopefully he'll be able to help us out

Roland St. Jude
2007-02-12, 07:15 PM
I'll just tell you all here what I told TheThan in response to his PM. I wish you all the best in your efforts. We have a similar community effort to build a homebrew monster compendium going on in Homebrew right now. Go ahead and make a thread for it. (Usually it's one thread per topic, but if you guys need a few threads, it'll probably be okay.) Use something like "[MTG RPG]" in the subject line to highlight what the thread is about. Also, be careful not to violate anyone's copyright!

Also, sorry, but we won't be creating a new subforum for this. Subforums add another level of complexity, technological, moderational, and otherwise, such that new subforums will be very rare. But you should be able to achieve your purposes in Homebrew without one.

So good luck with your effort, I wish you all the best!

Aez
2007-02-12, 08:00 PM
I'd like to try an RPG card game - a deck instead of a character sheet. You open a class booster everytime you lvl and the group open a item booster when they open a chest. The character creation would be unique and the fights always interesting. It would also prevent the constant book search downtime.

Now, I can't decide if it would be better with or with out the normal d20 map with miniatures.

TheThan
2007-02-13, 06:31 PM
I kind of figured we wouldn’t get a sub-forum, but it was worth a shot. Thanks anyway Roland.

Ok lets see a show of hands as to who is interested in getting this project off the ground.
We need to decide on who does what and what’s being worked on at the moment.
Right now we’ll start taking volunteers. After we get three or four people I’ll open a discussion thread in the homebrewing forums (where this should go) where we can discuss this more.

We have the following areas that need to be worked on.

Classes
Races
Monsters
Spells (aka the color wheel)
World generation (regions, maps, nations, etc)
World fluff (history, noteworthy people, npcs, etc)


I’ll volunteer for class creation and I can probably lend a hand on a few other pieces.

Skydiving_Ninja
2007-02-14, 09:34 PM
I can work on races and borrow a few things from the old Ravnica campaign, if I can find it. I'll assume Dominarian races.

Yakk
2007-02-15, 04:09 PM
First, let's make the game feel like magic.

That means characters power-up during combat, deploy resources, and have an unpredictable supply of abilities.

...

Next, we want the colours of magic to matter.

...

Next, we want more than just "minor mages". Ideally every class would be colour-affiliated, but ...

Do we want to be humanoid-biased? That seems the safe bet.

How about 3 classes per colour:
Brute, Agile, Mage

White Brute: Knight
White Agile: ??
White Mage: Healer

Black Brute: Abomination
Black Agile: Assasin
Black Mage: Necromancer

Blue Brute: Pirate ?
Blue Agile: Swashbuckler ?
Blue Mage: Diviner

Green Brute: Berzerker
Green Agile: Fey
Green Mage: Druid

Red Brute: Giantkin
Red Agile: Goblinkin
Red Mage: Pyromancer

Orzel
2007-02-15, 05:35 PM
The thing about magic setting when converted from the cards is that the colors have things the they share and things that are almost exclusive to the color. Look at spells.

Draw- Divination- blue, green, and black
Counter spells - Abjuration- mostly blue
Elemental Damage - Evocation -red and green

and character types...

Formally trained fighter- white and black
Thieves- blue and red
Formally trained wizards -All colors
Barbarians- red

The best way to handle the colors is through feat trees and prerequisites.

Power Attack tree for all but blue.
Combat Expertises for all but red.
Mounted Combat tree for white red and black.

If you want I could handle core, style, and racial feat.

TheThan
2007-02-15, 10:03 PM
Well its good to see we have people interested in making this. So I’m going to go and open up a discussion thread in the homebrewing section.
Magic: the gathering the rpg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35081)