Help w/ Arcane Archer reqs

[Endril]

Hey all!

I realize there's already plenty of posts about arcane archer - I've been reading through a good share of them - but I don't think my question here has really been addressed, and I'll try to keep it pretty specific.

I have a character in mind that I want to make, and I picture him imbuing nasty spells into arrows and firing them at people - grease, fireball, or even anti-magic field. I'll be taking two levels in arcane archer to do this. As far as the build goes, here are my initial thoughts:

1 Fighter (gets 1 base attack, as well as weapon/armor proficiency for spellsword)
6 wizard (wizard caster levels, 3 more base attack)
1 spellsword (1 more base attack w/out losing wizard caster level)
1 abjurant champion (1 more base attack w/out losing wizard caster level)
2 arcane archer (imbue arrow)

I don't care much about what I do after level 11... I'll likely pick up the other 4 levels of abjurant champion and then put 5 more levels in classes that have full spell progression.

My problem is playing this character until level 11 before he does his "thing". Until then, he's pretty much a wizard with archery feats he has little use for. So I've been wracking my brain trying to replace a couple of those wizard levels with another prestige class that can give me more base attack without giving up caster levels. So that's why I'm posting here to see if anyone has recommendations. I'm thinking I may have already tapped into everything I can, since the DM is not allowing outside campaign material, and it has to be from WotC 3.5 books, with some limitations on any books that aren't core/race/class books (complete or "races of" books are fine, while books like Magic Item Compendium and UA would only be approved case by case).

In addition to helping me meet arcane archer requirements early, opinions about this build are also welcome. I've heard people debate why imbue arrow is any better that just casting the spell centered on the target you'd hit with the arrow... is having the extra range from your bow (which doesn't matter in half the fights we're in where the enemy is maybe 20-40' away) worth dumping 2 levels into a class with no caster levels? I thought the antimagic field idea was neat, but there are some targets you wouldn't want to use that on, and for any other targets, how much better is hitting them with an arrow than just casting it and walking up to them?

[Ikeren]

My problem is playing this character until level 11 before he does his "thing". Until then, he's pretty much a wizard with archery feats he has little use for. So I've been wracking my brain trying to replace a couple of those wizard levels with another prestige class that can give me more base attack without giving up caster levels. So that's why I'm posting here to see if anyone has recommendations.

Very very very few prestige classes are enterable before level 5. Fewer full casting prestige classes provide more than 0.75 BAB. One option would be Unearthed Arcana's Battle Sorcerer, which would let you go: Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion 1/ as your entry, which gets imbue arrow at level 9.

Duskblade 6 would also let you enter at level 7, but would seriously weaken your casting.

As for the value of Imbue Arrow --- if you like the idea, play it. Being a primary caster with a few lost caster levels is probably still higher powered than a good chunk of your party, depending on your groups level of optimization.

[Endril]

Very very very few prestige classes are enterable before level 5. Fewer full casting prestige classes provide more than 0.75 BAB. One option would be Unearthed Arcana's Battle Sorcerer, which would let you go: Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion 1/ as your entry, which gets imbue arrow at level 9.
This is a great suggestion. Maybe I should have mentioned that this one had already been pointed out to me. The DM will probably allow it, and it does get Imbue Arrow at level 9 instead of level 11, which would be great for me because the minimum character level for the party will probably be level 9 when I start (it's already at least 8), so I won't have to spend half a dozen games looking like a wizard instead of an archer to be effective. The obvious problem is the lower spells known, but I realize you're presenting it to me as an option. And it's an option I would consider taking if it wasn't for the other problem I have with sorcerer, and that's taking another level to get spells. With the build already losing 3 caster levels, I'd have to be epic before I could cast something nasty into my arrows like disjunction.

I'm OK with a class taking 5 levels, if it's 1 level fighter, 4 levels wizard. I'm just trying to avoid classes that take away more spell levels; I'd like to cast level 9 spells by level 20. I'm also OK with 0.75 BAB if it can somehow get me to spellsword sooner. I had been looking at unseen seer since it's 0.75 BAB, but by the time I take spellsword, I'm not actually gaining any BAB from it (since it takes 5 levels to qualify for and only gives 1 BAB for first 2 levels, same as wizard). On a side note, it does have advanced learning at level 2, but I can't get the skill reqs without switching fighter for ranger, which messes up my armor proficiencies.

Also on the topic of sorcerer, another suggestion that was made to me was sublime chord, which would look something like this:
1 Fighter
4 Bard
1 spellsword
1 abjurant champion
2 arcane archer
1 more abjurant champion
1+ sublime chord
...and then I can maybe pick up 2nd level sublime chord for the ability and the other 3 levels of abjurant champion. When I look at what this build can do at higher levels, it seems worth it. I just don't picture my character as a bard. I really want him to fit into the archetypes of archer and wizard. I'd consider it if there were acf for bard that let me give up bardic music to help with my archery or magic, and if I could find something enjoyable to do with the character before level 11 (which is the same problem I mentioned in the OP).

[gorfnab]

Slightly different build that can work at lower levels as a support caster: Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar or Sacred Exorcist 3. This setup gets 9th level spells, 16 BAB, decent amount of skills, inspire courage and other buffs.

[Ikeren]

Yep, I think Sublime Chord is your answer here. Just refluff and see about trading away abilities you think don't suit the character --- there are a decent number of ACF's, or work something out with your DM.

[gorfnab]

IF you're not the primary caster and just want a halfways decent Arcane Archer take a look at this Duskblade based Arcane Archer: Susan the Arcane Archer: by carnivore (third post down) (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.20)

[Endril]

Thanks gorfnab. I had also come accross that thread while I was searching, before posting here. I see you've been busy, because there were some thread I saw you comment on around 2009 or so.

I'm picturing an elven ranger/wizard that has good survival/stealth skills and supports the party with ranged dps, but instead of going the ranger/scout skirmish route, he adds to his damage with the spells he imbues his arrows with. It could work, maybe not as well as ranger/scout, as pretty much any build we've discussed here imo. I might be willing to take a hit on my skills and go the duskblade route, but the duskblade spell list doesn't synergize well with imbue arrow. I'd pretty much be limited to channeled pyroblast and doom scarabs, right?

I've discussed this with a couple friends, and they're in agreement that the sublime chord build is the better option, but there aren't any ACF's I'm interested in to give up music to improve my fighting/casting, so I may have to get creative with my performance to fit how I picture my character... I don't picture him singing or prancing around, or really drawing attention to himself in any way. That, and I've been helping a friend build a bard/mindbender/warweaver who will go sublime chord at 11, and that may cause some redudancy.

All good suggestions though. If I decide to go with this character, I'm sure my best option is one of the ones mentioned here.

[Telonius]

Your Perform skill doesn't have to involve song or dance. It can be poetry, percussion, oratory, pantomime, even insult comedy. It doesn't have to be something the enemies notice, either; as long as your allies can hear or see it, it works. With an archer, an intuitive (though maybe too obvious) option would be some sort of stringed instrument - bass, maybe.

[John Longarrow]

L1-Fighter (1)
L2-Wizard (2)
L3-Elf Paragon (1)
L4-Elf Paragon (2)
L5-Elf Paragon (3)
L6-Wizard (2)
L7-Spell Sword (1)

Trades 1 caster level for 1 BAB and a +2 to dex. Similar to the "Take a 2nd level in Fighter (or Ranger), but you get a good stat boost to. Also, remember your level limit of imbue arrrow. Means you will want more levels of Arcane Archer to keep up the max spell level.

[Darkweave31]

The problem with arcane archer is that outside the name and imbue arrow (which is really only good for a few niche tricks), it does nothing to advance the concept as a whole. So unless you REALLY want to be able to pull of the antimagic field arrow trick all it gets you is the name and frankly you can call yourself whatever you want already. So alternatives!!!

The simple way to be a wizard (or sorcerer) based arcane archer from level 1...

Be a wizard (or sorcerer) and say that all your spells appear to be arrows, the somatic gestures consist of you pulling the bowstring back as the spell materializes as an ephemeral silver arrow that flies towards its target.

If that doesn't fly... take the spell thematics feat and say the same thing, but this time you took a feat that says you can.

If that still doesn't fly... well then you're looking at a gish build. Swap out your wizard bonus feats and scribe scroll for fighter bonus feats to cover the archery feat tax. Abjurant Champion's level 4 ability is quite wonderful for an "arcane archer" since you can spend a spell slot to improve your damage with every shot for the round by twice its level as a swift action. Swiftblade, despite the intention of being melee focused is also nice for a very mobile ranged gish. Something like Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 ends up with a BAB and CL of 17 and an extra standard action every round. Use manyshot to get 8 attacks that deal massive damage (buffed from abjurant champion 4 and swiftblade's non-precision based skirmish damage). Note if you just want to gish it up, this works beautifully with the first two options as well.


Other Alternatives for being an arcane archer from level 1:
Bard using her bardic music to weave greater magical power into her arrows (inspire courage, possibly with dragonfire inspiration) as she sings ancient songs of arcane might

Sword of the arcane order ranger (or even paladin, look up A-game paladin for combining it with bardic music as above) is also a nice way to get that arcane archer feel on a somewhat lower power tier (do your arrows really NEED to rewrite reality... who am I kidding of course they do :smallbiggrin:)