Can ANYONE Learn Magic?

[Gnome Alone]

Heyyyyyy forum-goers. From time to lonesome time I wonder about two inter-related questions:

In the default "fluff" for 3.5, is magical ability supposed to biologically inherent, or something that anyone could theoretically learn? Like, surely sorcerers are born mage-ish, but even wizards need to be genetically predisposed/fated/whatever in order to cast spells?

Second, regardless of what the official d20 story is, how do you play it? Is your fighter not learning spells because he just physically can't or because he's a contrarian bastard who got kicked out of wizard academy?

[Sartharina]

Anyone with an INT of at least 10 has the capacity to learn magic, but it takes incredible dedication and study to actually be able to get anywhere. Some people are inherently talented, though (Adepts).

Fighters even with sufficient INT don't study magic because they don't have the time to do so AND maintain their physical regimens and martial exercises.

[Erik Vale]

I would claim you have levels in scout, but there's a good five minutes in the way.

But yes, DnD land, anyone with average [though perferably above average] and years to dedicate can be a wizard.

My characters either are wizards/equivalents, sorcerers, or to busy doing the 'saving the world crap' or going to retrain when they're to old to keep up the sword swinging.

[Sir Chuckles]

Purely fluff.

As long as your relevant casting stat is high enough and you take a level in a class level that grants spells known and/or spells per day, you can cast magic. There are no direct rules against cross classing into Sorcerer or Favored Soul, or any other "born with it" classes. You may require a spell book, you may require a bag full of bat droppings, but if you have it, you can shoot fire out your bum with a few fancy chants and finger wiggles.

[OldTrees1]

Magical ability can be achieved by nature(Sorcerer) or nurture(Wizard). Someone with the magical bloodline can choose their path. Lesser beings are restricted to using nurture.

[Deophaun]

More people have the skill set to effectively use magic than to wave a pointy stick around and hurt someone (else). For proof, see Warlock.

[Zanos]

Most people aren't going to have higher than a 10 in intelligence, so while I suppose they could study magic anything beyond a basic cantrip would be beyond them. You'd probably be better off hitting people with a club, to be honest.

I suppose least wish is still rather useful, though.

[TuggyNE]

There are no direct rules against cross classing into Sorcerer or Favored Soul, or any other "born with it" classes.

This deserves emphasis. Nearly all "the blood of X flows through your veins" mechanics in 3.x allow you to take them after first level: bloodlines, Sorcerer class, most such feats, and so on. So basically it's a case of PCs existing in a state of retroactively-reified uncertainty, where their effective ancestry is not fully defined until they stop leveling.

[Gnome Alone]

Is everybody answering my first question or my second?
Personal preferences (or assumptions) are distinct from the intent of game mechanics. So far it sounds like nobody goes the "magic is inherent" route... or that everybody believes that it should not be thus. Can't tell.


Most people aren't going to have higher than a 10 in intelligence

Oh right. That is a highly relevant thing I didn't think of - even in the kind of setting where anyone can study magic with they hope of executing it, it won't necessarily be agood idea.


This deserves emphasis. Nearly all "the blood of X flows through your veins" mechanics in 3.x allow you to take them after first level: bloodlines, Sorcerer class, most such feats, and so on. So basically it's a case of PCs existing in a state of retroactively-reified uncertainty, where their effective ancestry is not fully defined until they stop leveling.

Yar, that makes.sense. It ties into a thing I'm thinking, that many players whose PCs don't have magic powers don't have magic powers because they don't want them to have magic powers. And would feel like they need to suddenly discover that great-grandpa Joeborb was entirely too comfortable with pixies or something to make it believable that their dedicated aorta-severer can suddenly double in size.

[Sir Chuckles]

Yar, that makes.sense. It ties into a thing I'm thinking, that many players whose PCs don't have magic powers don't have magic powers because they don't want them to have magic powers. And would feel like they need to suddenly discover that great-grandpa Joeborb was entirely too comfortable with pixies or something to make it believable that their dedicated aorta-severer can suddenly double in size.

My first character was a Rogue that I wanted to cross class into a caster, because Rogue/Caster is fun. I didn't want to be a Wizard, because I was new and couldn't manage working with the smaller amount of spells/day (the Barbarian ate up a lot of the buffs and heals). Also I had 12 Int and 18 Charisma.
My DM fluffed it as "It was always in you. Nearly dying three times in the last day and a half made your subconscious go 'Well, I think it's time you start shooting lightning instead of dying.'"

[Erik Vale]

As to most people only having 10 in int, standard is 3 10's and 11's, so somewhere near half of the population can master level 1 spells... After 3-18 [I think, and only for humans] years of study.

[ryu]

As to most people only having 10 in int, standard is 3 10's and 11's, so somewhere near half of the population can master level 1 spells... After 3-18 [I think, and only for humans] years of study.

Keep in mind that there will still be people considerably above average. even among most NPCs.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's also the point to consider that magical knowledge is not publicly available in most settings. People who become wizards either become apprentices to someone who is already a wizard or have a family with enough income to afford one of the few magical colleges around.

Joe Farmboy either has to get lucky by finding an established wizard willing to take him on as an apprentice (despite the fact that his potential will likely top out at first level spells, if that) or win the genetic lottery and become a sorcerer.
He's much more likely to join the guard and get some fighter training instead.

[BWR]

Fluff-wise, it depends on the setting. In most, no not everyone can learn magic. It's an innate gift of varying rarity. Some puzzle out arcane secrets, some charm the multiverse into liking them, some sing well enough to do weird stuff, some ask gods really nicely, but not everyone is capable of this, no matter how hard they try. There are exceptions: the Arcane Age of Forgotten Realms, everyone and their mother had a little magic ability. This changed at some point. Other places like Alphatia in Mystara, had about 99% of the population having magical ability (still not universal, but close). Then they blew up their planet and came to a new world where only about 50% of the Alphatian population could use magic. This percentage dropped to about 25% over the course of 1000 years or more. Fluff/mechanics-wise, just about all elves know some magic in Mystara because they are innately magical.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, you have two bars that prevent you from becoming a wizard.

A - There are not many wizards around. Getting one to teach you is hard, and expensive. A spellbook is worth more than most people see in their lives, much less something you can just buy. Wizards and thus very picky about who they are willing to take on as apprentices. They have to not only be intelligent enough to be trained in the first place, but also meet the wizards sense of any other criteria needed.

B - Even if you have an int of 11 or 12, your total ability will be capped by your talent. Your teacher knows this, and thus will tend to only teach those who show real talent IE int 14-15+. Those levels of int are rare. You have to have an elite array with Int as your highest score. These are the average people who will reach 9th level spells within 20 levels.

[OldTrees1]

B - Even if you have an int of 11 or 12, your total ability will be capped by your talent. Your teacher knows this, and thus will tend to only teach those who show real talent IE int 14-15+. Those levels of int are rare. You have to have an elite array with Int as your highest score. These are the average people who will reach 9th level spells within 20 levels.

14-15 Int + increases every 4 HD = 9th level spells at 17th or 20th level.
08-09 Int + increases every 4 HD + a Headband of Intellect +6 = 9th level spells at 17th or 20th level.
03-07 Int + increases every 4 HD + a Headband of Intellect +6 + Tome of Clear Thought 1-5 = 9th level spells at 20th level.

So even the dumbest non animal NPC can become a Wizard casting 9th level spells within their wealth by level.

Of course there is the actual cost of the int boosts, opportunity costs and the level after level of no casting just to get enough wealth to unlock your potential.

Also teachers would likely prefer the first batch over the second batch(which take levels of patience) or the last batch(which take careers of patience)

[Fouredged Sword]

Pc wealth by level solves many things. My thought was that with few teachers, and the bars already to getting one, the intelligence bar is far higher than 11 to become a wizard. Yes, one can complete a MIT science degree without being really really smart, but they won't even give you the chance to start unless they already know you are smart.

[OldTrees1]

Pc wealth by level solves many things. My thought was that with few teachers, and the bars already to getting one, the intelligence bar is far higher than 11 to become a wizard. Yes, one can complete a MIT science degree without being really really smart, but they won't even give you the chance to start unless they already know you are smart.

Good summary. There may be the occasional exception (NPC Orc Wizard with a secret).

[NichG]

I hold to the position that the game mechanics are actually completely silent on the matter. As a player, you can choose to have your character take particular class levels, but there's no indication given one way or another whether or not that choice corresponds to an in-character decision (except to some degree in the presence of retraining rules, which only allow you to retrain feats and skills). As such, the mechanics allow you to run a game where everything about your character build is effectively inherent - that guy over there who is going to end up a Paladin 4, Cleric 3, Druid 2, Fighter 3, Scout 2 just got the genetic short straw. They also allow you to run a game where everything is choice, and you can opt to take a level of Sorceror or Wizard whenever you feel like it. And everything in between.

My personal preference is 'usually choice, sometimes inherent'. The idea of arcane magic as power gained by study loses thematic punch if only some people can actually do it, since then its not about the knowledge but rather just being born under the right star. Sorcerors though are clearly fluffed as having 'the blood of powerful creatures' as the source of their power, so I'd tend to run them as inherent (and if a PC cross-classes into Sorceror, they always had that blood running through their veins but didn't realize it until that moment).

[lordzya]

An important thing to think about is scarcity of magic as well. In some settings magical beings breed with mortals with abandon and wizards will train any peasant with promise, but it most I don't think that would be logical. In the setting I'm currently running, wizardry was taught to the first king in one of my kingdoms, and so magic is a privilege of the nobility. Through years of nobles intermarrying and passing on the knowledge to any talented relatives, most nobles have an uncle or grandmother who can teach them if they are so inclined. However, to common people, such training is generally unavailable. The middle ages didn't have a large middle class that could buy education, and wizards generally guard their secrets closely, so while a few bastards and renegades have leaked it, it is still exclusive. I would suggest inventing such a narrative in your setting to decide what role it plays instead of just settling on it either being common or on mages always being special snowflakes.

[Captnq]

Clerics = Suck up to a god enough and he likes you, you can become a cleric.
Druid = See cleric, but you suck up to nature.
Sorcerers = It's in the blood and random.
Wizard = Anyone can become a wizard, but it takes decades. A small percentage by chance and/or bloodline can learn much faster then others. It is not dependent on int. This factor is anywhere from 10 times faster to 10 thousand times faster.
Bards = Same as wizards.
Adepts = Random.
Favored Soul = Choice by outer planar entity.
Psionics = See wizard.

[Zombulian]

I've had this discussion with friends of mine before. The general idea we got to is that, "If you're special enough to be an adventurer, you have all sorts of crap in your bloodline." This is evidenced by the fact that anyone at any time can take a level in Sorcerer or Warlock. Those classes are supposed to be the awakening of distant bloodlines that make you a special snowflake with super powers, but any old joe that a player rolls up can decide to have that bloodline.
So yeah, I'd say anyone can learn magic... if they're an adventurer.

[Warlocknthewind]

There's a race in complete psionics, I believe, that is incapaple of using magic.

Psionics only (cause it's totally not magic you know)

[Gavinfoxx]

Warlock is a class that you can totally be functional with, with straight 8's or worse, that requires no skill or competence to enter. ANYONE can be a Warlock.

[Zombulian]

There's a race in complete psionics, I believe, that is incapaple of using magic.

Psionics only (cause it's totally not magic you know)

I'm not sure about that, but there's a race in Tome of Magic called Karsites that can't use magic.

[Seerow]

Why is everyone talking about spending years finding a master and learning magic?

Everyone knows all you have to do is get in a group of 4-5, go stab a couple dozen goblins, and magically your spell book will manifest into existence as you level up to Wizard 1. No training, study, money, or mentorship required. Learning to cast spells in D&D 3.5 is literally 100% as easy as learning to swing your sword a little more accurately. There is nothing special about it. Casters are normal people, just like everyone else.

[Warlocknthewind]

I'm not sure about that, but there's a race in Tome of Magic called Karsites that can't use magic.


That's the one! So no, not everyone can use majicks

[Duke of Urrel]

I've had this discussion with friends of mine before. The general idea we got to is that, "If you're special enough to be an adventurer, you have all sorts of crap in your bloodline." This is evidenced by the fact that anyone at any time can take a level in Sorcerer or Warlock. Those classes are supposed to be the awakening of distant bloodlines that make you a special snowflake with super powers, but any old joe that a player rolls up can decide to have that bloodline.
So yeah, I'd say anyone can learn magic... if they're an adventurer.

There are two important things to consider here.

The first, which numerous others have pointed out already, is that from the perspective of the Rules As Written, there's nothing stopping you from developing spellcasting ability except for a mental ability score that's too low.

The second, which I believe doesn't get emphasized enough, is the perspective of world-building. If the Dungeon Master applies nothing but the RAW and common sense, the only logical world is one in which everybody with at least one mental ability that is average or higher is a spellcaster. I side with DMs who find this kind of world to be frightfully boring. If everybody who isn't a complete simpleton has magical powers, then magical powers aren't special any more. They're just too common.

So I believe Zombulian has the right idea. Spellcasting ability is something that should be unusual and available only to a minority. Only creatures with elite ability scores, such as adventurers, should have it.

Player-characters may of course decide, for various reasons, to add spellcasting ability to their repertoire of extraordinary powers. This doesn't mean that we have to accept the idea that anybody can do magic who works hard, or who invades enough dungeons. There's always a way to work around that lazy logic with some creative fluff. If you're a tenth-level fighter who only now starts to discover that you're a sorcerer, I explain that this is an innate power that you've always had, but has lain dormant and undiscovered until now. Some native talents choose to manifest themselves comparatively late in life. Just ask Grandma Moses. Divine spellcasting ability is even easier to explain. So for all your life, over 13 levels of adventuring experience as a monk, you never had cleric spells until just now? Maybe that's because [insert deity's name here] didn't consider you worthy until now, or because you never attained spiritual enlightenment or rebirth until now.

As a DM, I prefer player-characters to differ from each other. This enables me to tailor challenges for each one of them, so that each one can have some special work to do. If all PCs become hyper-blended poly-class gishes, they're too much alike for me to use this strategy, and I think that makes the game less interesting. However, if it happens that all PCs decide they want to be somewhat blended versions of each other (which a DM cannot always discourage), there's a fluffy way to explain that, too. People who hang out together long enough start to become more and more like each other.

On the other hand, if you're a fighter who just wants to be a fighter without all the magic frou-frou – to which I say, good on you! – this doesn't mean you're stupid or lazy. It only means that you don't have the innate or spiritual ability to make magic happen. You're a muggle, and that's all there is to it; or you're just not religious enough, and that's all there is to it. Unless, of course, you decide at the time of your next level gain that maybe you're also a spellcaster of some kind, suddenly manifesting innate or spiritual powers that you never knew you had. In which case, I also say: good on you! You're a PC, and PCs are supposed to be special, unusual, and exceptional in surprising ways. That's what makes them heroes.

[Seerow]

The second, which I believe doesn't get emphasized enough, is the perspective of world-building. If the Dungeon Master applies nothing but the RAW and common sense, the only logical world is one in which everybody with at least one mental ability that is average or higher is a spellcaster. I side with DMs who find this kind of world to be frightfully boring. If everybody who isn't a complete simpleton has magical powers, then magical powers aren't special any more. They're just too common.


Magical Powers being special and rare though is one of those thought processes that directly feeds into the "mundanes can't have nice things" deal. The fact is that it's not magical powers that should be rare, but any PC class should be relatively rare.

The real issue comes up when people insist that the average city guard or militiaman is a Fighter 2, or your average street thief is a Rogue 1... but then insist that Magic is this rare and mystical thing that only a tiny fragment of the population should ever have access to. Whereas in truth, a character with an actual level in Rogue instead of Expert should be every bit as rare as the guy who has a level of Wizard.

[Zombulian]

Magical Powers being special and rare though is one of those thought processes that directly feeds into the "mundanes can't have nice things" deal. The fact is that it's not magical powers that should be rare, but any PC class should be relatively rare.

The real issue comes up when people insist that the average city guard or militiaman is a Fighter 2, or your average street thief is a Rogue 1... but then insist that Magic is this rare and mystical thing that only a tiny fragment of the population should ever have access to. Whereas in truth, a character with an actual level in Rogue instead of Expert should be every bit as rare as the guy who has a level of Wizard.

That's a good point.

[Coidzor]

Yar, that makes.sense. It ties into a thing I'm thinking, that many players whose PCs don't have magic powers don't have magic powers because they don't want them to have magic powers. And would feel like they need to suddenly discover that great-grandpa Joeborb was entirely too comfortable with pixies or something to make it believable that their dedicated aorta-severer can suddenly double in size.

Or they dumped the relevant mental ability scores for the kind of casting they'd want to pick up. Or didn't think of it as an option for any number of reasons relating to blinders and perceived paty roles.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

In addition to the Karsite race from Tome of Magic which can't ever cast spells, Secrets of Sarlona has the Qourbred template which makes a creature incapable of ever manifesting powers.

[Graypairofsocks]

Heyyyyyy forum-goers. From time to lonesome time I wonder about two inter-related questions:

In the default "fluff" for 3.5, is magical ability supposed to biologically inherent, or something that anyone could theoretically learn? Like, surely sorcerers are born mage-ish, but even wizards need to be genetically predisposed/fated/whatever in order to cast spells?

Second, regardless of what the official d20 story is, how do you play it? Is your fighter not learning spells because he just physically can't or because he's a contrarian bastard who got kicked out of wizard academy?


There is a race of creatures called Ormyrr (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_98.jpg)(found in Monster Manual II) that lacks magical aptitude, I think it was said some where that their goal as a race was to breed a sorcerer.

[Slipperychicken]

I like to imagine that many people (even those with the relevant ability scores above average) simply don't have a high enough Midichlorian count to cast spells. Or "the spark", or whatever is required to cast magic. This allows for smart, charismatic, and wise muggles to exist. Also allows people to be more envious of magic-users, and develop superstitions about them.

You could also have an equivalent to force-sensitivity, where some people can learn to cast magic, but it's not immediately obvious without some kind of test. So someone might live in the cupboard under the stairs without being tested for most of his life, then only later learn that he can cast spells.

[NichG]

Magical Powers being special and rare though is one of those thought processes that directly feeds into the "mundanes can't have nice things" deal. The fact is that it's not magical powers that should be rare, but any PC class should be relatively rare.

The real issue comes up when people insist that the average city guard or militiaman is a Fighter 2, or your average street thief is a Rogue 1... but then insist that Magic is this rare and mystical thing that only a tiny fragment of the population should ever have access to. Whereas in truth, a character with an actual level in Rogue instead of Expert should be every bit as rare as the guy who has a level of Wizard.

See, I actually disagree with this one. Because the effective power of a wizard and their ability to influence the setting is much higher than the equivalent for a fighter or a rogue, they must be intrinsically more difficult to qualify for to even explain having an equal number of each much less anything else. Otherwise there'd be a strong incentive for everyone to send their kids to wizarding school.

So once you have these other factors changing the equilibrium, there's no particular reason to put that equilibrium at equal values of each class. Maybe wizards are 10000 times harder than fighters to train, but 1000 times as many people want to be wizards so their representation in the population is about 1/10th of the average. Or maybe 100k times as many people want to be wizards so they're at 10x the average.

Basically, its pretty easy to justify any particular rate of relative abundance you want to have in your setting.

[Warlocknthewind]

In addition to the Karsite race from Tome of Magic which can't ever cast spells, Secrets of Sarlona has the Qourbred template which makes a creature incapable of ever manifesting powers.

So a Quorbred Karsite is stuck using soulmelds

Or would even that be out the window?

[Seerow]

See, I actually disagree with this one. Because the effective power of a wizard and their ability to influence the setting is much higher than the equivalent for a fighter or a rogue, they must be intrinsically more difficult to qualify for to even explain having an equal number of each much less anything else. Otherwise there'd be a strong incentive for everyone to send their kids to wizarding school.

So once you have these other factors changing the equilibrium, there's no particular reason to put that equilibrium at equal values of each class. Maybe wizards are 10000 times harder than fighters to train, but 1000 times as many people want to be wizards so their representation in the population is about 1/10th of the average. Or maybe 100k times as many people want to be wizards so they're at 10x the average.

Basically, its pretty easy to justify any particular rate of relative abundance you want to have in your setting.

When you say "A Magic User needs to be more difficult to qualify for because they have a greater impact on the setting" you are intrinsically saying "A non magic user should have no ability to have a great impact on the setting". Basically your post sums up the entire "Mundanes can't have nice things" argument, by insisting that the balancing factor on the all powerful mage classes is that they are rarer and fewer people can get into them.

[Psyren]

Anyone can learn magic, in much the same way that anyone can become a doctor or theoretical physicist. Or put another way, just about anyone can grasp the basics but the chances of an average person getting to the level where that knowledge is truly practical/ipactful is unlikely.

The DMG population tables (web enhancement) give a good idea of how rare spellcasters - particularly "learned" ones like wizards - are compared to the mundane classes.


When you say "A Magic User needs to be more difficult to qualify for because they have a greater impact on the setting" you are intrinsically saying "A non magic user should have no ability to have a great impact on the setting". Basically your post sums up the entire "Mundanes can't have nice things" argument, by insisting that the balancing factor on the all powerful mage classes is that they are rarer and fewer people can get into them.

This all depends on your definition of "nice things." I feel that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that mundanes should be incapable of things like, say, resurrection, that nevertheless can have a profound impact on a setting.

[Andion Isurand]

I could see some individuals acquiring innate bloodline abilities by the process of exposing themselves to particular magical energies and substances, although they would likely acquire them as an unwilling test subject among a list of other failed test subjects who didn't fare so well.

[Sartharina]

I could see some individuals acquiring innate bloodline abilities by the process of exposing themselves to particular magical energies and substances, although they would likely acquire them as an unwilling test subject among a list of other failed test subjects who didn't fare so well.

Or just by adventuring and getting exposed to the weird **** that adventurers have to deal with on a daily basis.

[Slipperychicken]

This all depends on your definition of "nice things." I feel that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that mundanes should be incapable of things like, say, resurrection, that nevertheless can have a profound impact on a setting.

Nonmagical resurrection = Go to hell and drag the target back to the material plane.

[Coidzor]

So a Quorbred Karsite is stuck using soulmelds

Or would even that be out the window?

I believe binding, shadowcasting, and truenaming would still be on the table as well. Not sure about Warlocks/DFAs though.

[Rijan_Sai]

So a Quorbred Karsite is stuck using soulmelds

Or would even that be out the window?


I believe binding, shadowcasting, and truenaming would still be on the table as well. Not sure about Warlocks/DFAs though.

Not sure...I don't have access to SoS, so I can't check it out. But, if Quorbred only blocks manifesting, then yes, SLA's are still available, per Karsite.

[Graypairofsocks]

Nonmagical resurrection = Go to hell and drag the target back to the material plane.

The only thing is that will bring back a twisted version of the guy you wanted to bring back.

[Coidzor]

The only thing is that will bring back a twisted version of the guy you wanted to bring back.

Well, depends on if you look back at them or not, doesn't it?

[The Shadowmind]

The easiest "magic" to use is Binding.
The entire process: Doodle on the ground, talk to a Being from Beyond the StarsTM , and vioa. Power.
No stats requirements, no years studying old tomes, no begging a god.

Is is even canon that becoming a binder is easy.

[Graypairofsocks]

Well, depends on if you look back at them or not, doesn't it?

Um, could you please clarify?

[Psyren]

Nonmagical resurrection = Go to hell and drag the target back to the material plane.

That requires a cosmology that supports that kind of unaided physical interaction with the metaphysical concept of death. (For instance, you need a "hell" to begin with, and it has to be accessible.) Which is the sort of setting where nothing is truly "mundane" anyway.

In D&D, reaching other planes without magic is extremely difficult. The ones where dead folks tend to go are even harder, because even when you get that magic/access, you tend to land at the front door and have to explore the plane manually. And all the while, the dead person is or already has been changed quite drastically from their living form, whether through trauma or actualization.

[Coidzor]

Um, could you please clarify?

I was referencing Orpheus/Izanagi, since at least ostensibly things would have worked out somehow with Izanami if Izanagi hadn't looked back, but Orpheus is much more famous as having cocked it all up by having looked back.

[NichG]

When you say "A Magic User needs to be more difficult to qualify for because they have a greater impact on the setting" you are intrinsically saying "A non magic user should have no ability to have a great impact on the setting". Basically your post sums up the entire "Mundanes can't have nice things" argument, by insisting that the balancing factor on the all powerful mage classes is that they are rarer and fewer people can get into them.

No, I'm not intrinsically saying that that 'should' be true. I'm saying that, given the rules mechanics for the various classes, its simply the case that wizards will have the tools to make a greater overt impact than fighters with less time or resources expended and less overall effort or skill required.

[Slipperychicken]

In D&D, reaching other planes without magic is extremely difficult. The ones where dead folks tend to go are even harder, because even when you get that magic/access, you tend to land at the front door and have to explore the plane manually. And all the while, the dead person is or already has been changed quite drastically from their living form, whether through trauma or actualization.

I didn't say it would be easy.

[The Oni]

Warlock is a class that you can totally be functional with, with straight 8's or worse, that requires no skill or competence to enter. ANYONE can be a Warlock.

Well, that's the point. The fluff of Warlock is such that their power is not their own.

[Melcar]

There is the easy answer. Yes, just pick a level in a spellcasting class and your home free, as long as you have 10 in the main spellcasting ability. Int for wizards and so on. Now, specifically for wizards in 3.0 ed its a purely academic subject. So anyone can learn it... (with int 10 or above).

A sorcerere on the other hand are born with gifts... so cant lean if not born with it. YOu still just have to have 10 charisma to pick a level of sorcerer.

In out campaing both wizards and sorcerers excist, but we have chosen that in order to lean magic, one would have to be born with the talent. Just like the AD&D mage class. So even though wizardry is an academic subject, one still have to have the right gift or blood or ancestry. It does notchange any mechanics, but it adds some fluff, that for us makes sence.

Hope this helps.

[Firechanter]

Well, basically you can define it any way you want. Personally, I go with the approach that anyone can learn magic provided they have the required Ability score.

However, you could also say that you need to have an innate ability -- genetic or otherwise -- that determines your magic potential. So what then if a player decides to pick up a Wizard level after 5 levels or Fighter? Well, obviously the genetic potential was always there.

And yet again, D&D seems to have a threefold approach, depending on the type of magic:
- Arcane Int caster: learned. Anyone with high enough Int can learn this type of magic (e.g. Wizardry).
- Arcane Cha caster: innate. It's in your blood, and just up to you to develop.
- Cleric and similar: chosen. Some higher power has picked you as their instrument, and it did so because you seemed to be particularly well suited, due to your high Wisdom (or Charisma) score.

For my homebrew setting, I pretty much go with this. With the added caveat that Wizards and Magic Academies only take in students with at least 16 Int, which explains why there aren't that many of them. Similarly for Cleric acolytes and other caster classes. If you only have, say, Int 14, and lack the physical skills to become a Warblade or the like, you might have a future as an Artificer, because magic items are always in high demand.

[deuxhero]

As long as your relevant casting stat is high enough and you take a level in a class level that grants spells known and/or spells per day, you can cast magic.

You could also take magical training (and precocious apprentice with it for more power)

[Grayson01]

To Answer your question it's both: Born with it or have to Learn it.

Yes you have to have a high enough intellect to study it, but you also have to have enough force of will (CHA) to use what you were born with.

As to the question of why the fighter does not use magic but uses his big sword. it's because he etehr A) never found a taste for magic, B) never had the chance to learn, C) Was not born with the Talent D) does not have a strong enough ability in the releveant score.

[Duke of Urrel]

Magical Powers being special and rare though is one of those thought processes that directly feeds into the "mundanes can't have nice things" deal. The fact is that it's not magical powers that should be rare, but any PC class should be relatively rare.

The real issue comes up when people insist that the average city guard or militiaman is a Fighter 2, or your average street thief is a Rogue 1... but then insist that Magic is this rare and mystical thing that only a tiny fragment of the population should ever have access to. Whereas in truth, a character with an actual level in Rogue instead of Expert should be every bit as rare as the guy who has a level of Wizard.

This is a very good point, and I agree with it.

In worlds that I manage as a DM, all PC classes are rather unusual, because they aren't available to creatures with average ability scores. Average creatures can be commoners, warriors, or perhaps aristocrats – and that's all. Even adepts require elite abilities, as do all spellcasters in worlds that I manage.

Most creatures with elite abilities in my world belong to the expert class. Commoners born with elite rather than average abilities become experts by default; I don't consider this class to be exclusively urban. However, a few commoners born with elite abilities become adventurers and enter PC classes. Warriors and aristocrats born with elite abilities become adventurers by default.

[Psyren]

I didn't say it would be easy.

So you agree then it should be the province of the few rather than the many? How then do you justify that divide, if not by strong faith, intellect or birthright?

[Coidzor]

The more this is discussed, the more I find myself preferring not to go to the trouble of explicitly defining things, because it seems like a whole lot of work for very little pay-off in comparison with just figuring out the desired proportions of the various NPC, PC, and casting classes in a setting.


Most creatures with elite abilities in my world belong to the expert class. Commoners born with elite rather than average abilities become experts by default; I don't consider this class to be exclusively urban. However, a few commoners born with elite abilities become adventurers and enter PC classes. Warriors and aristocrats born with elite abilities become adventurers by default.

Well, no, an Expert could be a Yeoman Farmer that's good at what they do and has some skills related to living roughly on their own or a woodsman. They're certainly better suited to being a mass of frontiersmen than Commoners and fill the role without the magic of Rangers or the Rogueishness of Wilderness Rogues.

[Psyren]

You don't have to figure out the proportions - as I said, the DMG has population tables that do that. They've done the heavy lifting and you can simply adopt or tweak the numbers as you see fit.

[Slipperychicken]

So you agree then it should be the province of the few rather than the many? How then do you justify that divide, if not by strong faith, intellect or birthright?

The province of heroes strong, fast, or wily enough to snatch souls from under the devil's nose. Such an undertaking would essentially be an adventure through hell, or perhaps defeating a psychopomp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp) as it guides the target's soul to the afterlife.

[Psyren]

The province of heroes strong, fast, or wily enough to snatch souls from under the devil's nose. Such an undertaking would essentially be an adventure through hell, or perhaps defeating a psychopomp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp) as it guides the target's soul to the afterlife.

1) Even if you did that, the cause of death would remain. Taking out a grim reaper wouldn't, say, drain the poison from a victim's body, or close the hole in their throat where it was slit, or restore them from being mashed to a pulp by a collapsed ceiling or burnt to ashes in a fire.

2) Taking on such creatures still means you're using magic - you're simply subverting that of the psychopomp rather than relying on your own. Either way it's not exactly "mundane."

[Coidzor]

You don't have to figure out the proportions - as I said, the DMG has population tables that do that. They've done the heavy lifting and you can simply adopt or tweak the numbers as you see fit.

Well, yeah, but deciding to use the standard distribution or not is still a decision, technically, and tweaking it would involve deciding how you wanted it tweaked. It's definitely the decision that requires the least amount of work though, yeah.

[Slipperychicken]

1) Even if you did that, the cause of death would remain. Taking out a grim reaper wouldn't, say, drain the poison from a victim's body, or close the hole in their throat where it was slit, or restore them from being mashed to a pulp by a collapsed ceiling or burnt to ashes in a fire.

2) Taking on such creatures still means you're using magic - you're simply subverting that of the psychopomp rather than relying on your own. Either way it's not exactly "mundane."

I figured that it would work out however Hercules managed it. Like how someone who walks out of Hades still has a body and everything, or how (in Greek myth at least) a dead person can use a coin under his body's tongue to pay Charon's toll.

As for magic, I was trying to use the popular definition of "mundane", which basically means "cannot cast spells". I'd hardly say that subverting a supernatural being counts as using magic (by such a broad definition, even Frodo would be considered magical since he used the One Ring and defeated Sauron).

[Sir Chuckles]

Ultimately, per mechanics, anyone with sufficient stats and time can become a Caster 1, and anyone with sufficient stats and at least 1000 exp can become a Something 1/Caster 1.

Distribution, exclusivity, finding a Wizard's College to study at, all those things are purely setting and DM specific. Some setting call for no full casters, period. Some DMs call for "You must make it to Hogwarts, Harry!" in order to become a caster. Other settings have low level casters as common guards in large cities. Some DMs, myself included, call for "You have 15 int? You've seen the party's Cleric be effective? Congrats, you find a dusty old beat up spell book with two cantrips and Burning Hands in it on a crusty skeleton."

[Psyren]

I figured that it would work out however Hercules managed it. Like how someone who walks out of Hades still has a body and everything, or how (in Greek myth at least) a dead person can use a coin under his body's tongue to pay Charon's toll.

Hercules is hardly mundane though, being half-deity.


As for magic, I was trying to use the popular definition of "mundane", which basically means "cannot cast spells". I'd hardly say that subverting a supernatural being counts as using magic (by such a broad definition, even Frodo would be considered magical since he used the One Ring and defeated Sauron).

The one ring is a magic item (an artifact at that), so... yeah, as a matter of fact.

And by that definition of mundane, Psions are mundane, Incarnates are mundane, Truenamers, Binders etc.

[ericgrau]

I'm going to look at this mechanically.

Assuming there are all kinds of ability score arrangements, you might expect 1/6 to 1/3 of PCs and elite NPCs to have the int to become a wizard.

Others are a bit different. Those with PC class levels are uncommon, and level 5 people are much more rare than that. Level 11 is downright legendary. In all but very high optimization settings, levels 1-4 are going to suck for a wizard and many people will not want to do it unless they have no choice. Why bother with wizard when their chances of ever leveling much are slim to none? Either you somehow know ahead of time that you're 1 in a million, or you weren't good at anything else. In fact... toughness is looking like a darn good feat choice in this awful world.

PCs are spoiled.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, the level 2 feat rogue guard with the toughness feat and two fighter feat feels like he is at the top of his world as far as things go. He's got enough HP to take a hit, evasion and light armor prof to avoid the hit, enough skill points to be skillful despite that 10 int.

Considering all his companions are warrior 1 / expert 1 for classes, he feels pretty elite.

[ShurikVch]

From the Forgotten Realms - Campaign Setting (pg. 194, underlined for emphasis):

Halruaa
...
Life and Society
...
Halruaans receive public schooling until at least the age of thirteen. Screening for magical aptitude occurs at age five, and magic-capable students often master cantrips by the time they are fifteen.
Although practicing magic is not necessary to live well in Halruaa, it helps. Those who are capable of casting wizard spells "have the gift," even if they do not make use of their talents. Roughly one-third of all Halruaans have the gift. Of that number, approximately two-thirds have some arcane knowledge (as described in the Magical Training feat; see Chapter 1: Characters) and the rest have at least one level of wizard. To Halruaans, the true Art is wizardry — sorcery is viewed as a dangerously undisciplined and primitive approach to magic. The few Halruaans whose gifts force them to become sorcerers instead of wizards either downplay the extent of their powers or leave the country.

Also, from Secrets of the Phoenix:
Non-Magical: Green-Green-White Nezumi have no talent in magic of any kind, and can never gain a level in any spellcasting class.

[NichG]

I'm going to look at this mechanically.

Assuming there are all kinds of ability score arrangements, you might expect 1/6 to 1/3 of PCs and elite NPCs to have the int to become a wizard.

Others are a bit different. Those with PC class levels are uncommon, and level 5 people are much more rare than that. Level 11 is downright legendary. In all but very high optimization settings, levels 1-4 are going to suck for a wizard and many people will not want to do it unless they have no choice. Why bother with wizard when their chances of ever leveling much are slim to none? Either you somehow know ahead of time that you're 1 in a million, or you weren't good at anything else. In fact... toughness is looking like a darn good feat choice in this awful world.

PCs are spoiled.

On the other hand, the PCs are the only ones insane enough to make a living through constant life-or-death combat. If you're a Lv1 wizard you can burn all your spell slots on things to make day to day life easier and just work as a scribe or something. Or make 20-30gp a day casting spells for people - a 15 minute work day where you can spend the rest of the time lazing around. So from the point of view of NPCs who aren't all grinding monsters for their daily bread, being a wizard is probably a pretty sweet deal even at Lv1.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, if that level 1 adept can't sell his 1-2 cure light wounds castings in a day, he isn't in a big enough city. He can pull in more money in a day than most do in a month, without any physical labor. He can get craft wonderous item at 3rd level and start making pearls of power (level 1) to further his daily income.

He can get around 30 gp a day if he sells all his spells.

[ericgrau]

That's great for an adept or cleric, but not so much for a wizard. Mundane options are much cheaper for dealing with bad weather, travel and so on rather than anything a wizard provides. At least from PHB spells. You have to wait for adventurers with stuff to identify before the wizard can make his 10 gp, and that's only after borrowing the pearl to cast the spell. And the number of level 1 wizards far outstrips the number of mid to high level adventurers, so you won't necessarily be the wizard that gets the prize.

You're better off making a living on profession checks for 5-10 gp a week.

But maybe there's some splatbook spell out there.

Come to think of it I wonder if there are enough emergency injuries to pay all the clerics 10 gp every day. I would think even this would be an occasional thing, and most of the time people would rather get heal checks. Unless the cleric was feeling generous to someone too poor to pay, as is often the case. 10 gp sounds more like the "if you want to take my services away from those in dire need you better pay well to help out the temple" adventurer or rich man price. Heck, it says right in the holy water description that clerics make the flasks pro bono because it's for a good cause.

Likewise a well trained soldier might be hired on as a bodyguard by someone well off. And a rogue might do well stealing from the wealthy.

[Psyren]

Yeah, if that level 1 adept can't sell his 1-2 cure light wounds castings in a day, he isn't in a big enough city. He can pull in more money in a day than most do in a month, without any physical labor. He can get craft wonderous item at 3rd level and start making pearls of power (level 1) to further his daily income.

He can get around 30 gp a day if he sells all his spells.

You have to factor out the church's cut as well as the time/effort of performing the various rites. That latter is probably what turns people off religion, except in Eberron - though in Eberron, just about everybody has low magic anyway thanks to the Dragonmarks.

[NichG]

That's great for an adept or cleric, but not so much for a wizard. Mundane options are much cheaper for dealing with bad weather, travel and so on rather than anything a wizard provides. At least from PHB spells. You have to wait for adventurers with stuff to identify before the wizard can make his 10 gp, and that's only after borrowing the pearl to cast the spell. And the number of level 1 wizards far outstrips the number of mid to high level adventurers, so you won't necessarily be the wizard that gets the prize.

You're better off making a living on profession checks for 5-10 gp a week.

But maybe there's some splatbook spell out there.


PHB spells for convenience of living:

- Unseen Servant
- Prestidigitation
- Endure Elements
- Alarm
- Silent Image
- Erase

PHB spells you could conceivably sell at a reasonable rate:

- Identify
- Magic Aura (buy my magic medicines!)
- Erase (for when a scribe messes up an expensive book)
- Message
- Mending
- Prestidigitation
- Arcane Mark
- Detect Poison
- Detect Magic

So, far more cantrips than 1st level spells, but that's good actually since you get more of them. At 5gp/cantrip, you could easily make a living at a shop verifying that their stock and purchases are properly magical/non-magical (and making sure their customers aren't using Enchantments to get a leg up on the bargaining), fixing up places, making food tasters for paranoid nobles unnecessary, etc.

I'd guess that the Detect Magic role is probably the most likely use of the Lv1 wizard - any shop-keeper in a major city who deals with significant amounts of gold probably wants a wizard to be scanning their customers for evidence of Glibness and the like. For example, it makes sense to have a wizard witness any transaction over 200gp (2.5% tax to protect against scams seems reasonable). Also good for gambling dens.

Clerics do have a more desirable spell list though, except for, as you point out:



Come to think of it I wonder if there are enough emergency injuries to pay all the clerics 10 gp every day. I would think even this would be an occasional thing, and most of the time people would rather get heal checks. Unless the cleric was feeling generous to someone too poor to pay, as is often the case. 10 gp sounds more like the "if you want to take my services away from those in dire need you better pay well to help out the temple" adventurer or rich man price. Heck, it says right in the holy water description that clerics make the flasks pro bono because it's for a good cause.

Thats why even if clerics have spells in higher demand, wizards are the selfish choice for the NPC who wants a live of luxury. As a cleric you probably don't get to keep your 'income'.


Likewise a well trained soldier might be hired on as a bodyguard by someone well off. And a rogue might do well stealing from the wealthy.

Both of these are potentially much higher risk jobs than casting 'Detect Magic' three times a day.

[qwertyu63]

Heyyyyyy forum-goers. From time to lonesome time I wonder about two inter-related questions:

In the default "fluff" for 3.5, is magical ability supposed to biologically inherent, or something that anyone could theoretically learn? Like, surely sorcerers are born mage-ish, but even wizards need to be genetically predisposed/fated/whatever in order to cast spells?


As far as I know, no. Wizardry is something anyone (with the required time and ability scores) can learn.

Second, regardless of what the official d20 story is, how do you play it? Is your fighter not learning spells because he just physically can't or because he's a contrarian bastard who got kicked out of wizard academy?

Usually the fighter isn't learning spells because they don't want to spend the time, or because they lack the Int score.

[Sir Chuckles]

Usually the fighter isn't learning spells because they don't want to spend the time, or because they lack the Int score.

Except that, by technicality (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html), the Fighter spends little to no time to become a Wizard on level up. All he needs is the spellbook, Intelligence score, and desire.
Kinda funny how that works.

[Gnome Alone]

Wow, I started a discussion people care about. Go me. First time for everything I guess, wokka wokka.

I realize that it's the kind of question that might actually best be shrugged away, as Coidzor suggested. I imagine it doesn't have much impact on games either way, because even in the kind of game where you have to have some kinda kernel of untapped innate magic mojo to suddenly multiclass to wizard, every PC that wants to is going to turn out to have that, Schrödinger's cat-style.

Certainly a DM who says otherwise ("no, you can't learn spells cuz your no-boolean count is higher than your yes-boolean count") is being a Beeg Fat Stoopid Jerk.

Thanks, everybody, for your input - I probably won't contribute much more to the discussion cuz I don't really have much of a position to push or anything; I was mainly just curious. Some cool ideas, though. Like....


In the setting I'm currently running, wizardry was taught to the first king in one of my kingdoms, and so magic is a privilege of the nobility. Through years of nobles intermarrying and passing on the knowledge to any talented relatives, most nobles have an uncle or grandmother who can teach them if they are so inclined. However, to common people, such training is generally unavailable. The middle ages didn't have a large middle class that could buy education, and wizards generally guard their secrets closely, so while a few bastards and renegades have leaked it, it is still exclusive. I would suggest inventing such a narrative in your setting to decide what role it plays instead of just settling on it either being common or on mages always being special snowflakes.

I'm totally gonna have to steal this, it is an idea that sounds both sensible and fun, like a regularly disinfected ball pit.

And after the discussion about the potential for low-level NPC wizards of moderate intelligence to make a decent living casting useful spells for the townsfolk, well now I wanna roll like a 14 INT wizard that works as a tailor or something. "Let's see, I think I'll prepare Mending today. And Mending. Hmm, better prepare another Mending...."

[Knaight]

Even if you have an int of 11 or 12, your total ability will be capped by your talent. Your teacher knows this, and thus will tend to only teach those who show real talent IE int 14-15+. Those levels of int are rare. You have to have an elite array with Int as your highest score. These are the average people who will reach 9th level spells within 20 levels.


As to most people only having 10 in int, standard is 3 10's and 11's, so somewhere near half of the population can master level 1 spells... After 3-18 [I think, and only for humans] years of study.

Neither of these are accurate. The standard array is 10s and 11s, but there's the age table to consider, wherein there's a +1 to all mental stats per age category. If one starts with an 11 in int, they will have a 14 by the time they are venerable, assuming they haven't suffered ability drain to the stat, and that's without level gain.

[Erik Vale]

Ok, so assuming a base 11 int and leveling up to keep up with their maximum spell and putting all ranks in int, before they croak they will have 14 int, meaning a level 7, bosting int up to 15 so 9, boosting up to 16 so 11.

So average joe has the ability to make ok level 9-11 wizards before they croak...

At least in PF you can halt your aging at that point, in 3.5, not so much, so humans get to enjoy their maybe 50 years of ultimate power... Or they could retrain later [like my characters do] and have something cushy to do in their old age.

[Sartharina]

At 5gp/cantrip, you could easily make a living at a shop verifying that their stock and purchases are properly magical/non-magical (and making sure their customers aren't using Enchantments to get a leg up on the bargaining), fixing up places, making food tasters for paranoid nobles unnecessary, etc.But is the convenience of the cantrip worth the 5 GP pricetag per casting, especially in mundane situations?

[tyckspoon]

But is the convenience of the cantrip worth the 5 GP pricetag per casting, especially in mundane situations?

If you're dealing with people who can afford to pay you 5 gp for a convenience spell, then yes, they very likely will consider it worth the price (consider - you could pay a really good tailor maybe 1 GP to fix up the fancy cloak you ripped. But he'll need like all day to do it, and that's *if* he'll drop all his other projects for you! You need that cloak to impress the ladies at the Big Social Event tonight! So you go find a Wizard, and he uses Mending to save you from your own stupidity, on the spot, no waiting, for the low, low price of 5 GP.) Likewise, if you're working with merchants who deal in multi-hundred GP sales and trades, 5 GP for a basic assurance of fair dealing is a bargain.

If you're in a place where the people can't afford 5 GP, well, lower your prices or find somewhere more affluent to peddle your magic. You could also make a living being a rural Wizard and getting paid in farm products and craft goods, after all, you just won't be living in particularly high style.

(Tangent re: spell levels castable from a starting Int of 11 - if you make it to level 3/Int 12 you can take Craft Wondrous Item, learn Fox's Cunning, and make yourself a Headband of Intellect. The +4 version makes Int 19 reachable, and +6 makes it pretty trivial, although I don't think it's reasonable to expect the Commoner-turned-Wizard to lead the kind of life that results in reaching level 17.)

[NichG]

But is the convenience of the cantrip worth the 5 GP pricetag per casting, especially in mundane situations?

Well a cart costs 15gp, so if you had one get smashed up to the point where you'd have to replace it outright, Mending is a good deal (and Mending explicitly can repair multiple breaks in wooden objects). For a city job, smashed works of art is even better and may be the only solution to preserve the art (it can repair multiple breaks in ceramics as well). Also things like broken locks (50gp lock or 5gp Mending) could be a big deal. Damaged armor would also be a big deal considering how expensive armor can get (150gp for new chainmail, or 5gp for a Mending?). Broken masterwork weapons or sufficiently large weapons could be a reasonable deal as well.

[ericgrau]

There are some useful spells to sell, but mundane options are cheaper. I suspect people wouldn't actually pay list price 95% of the time and actually opt for a more normal approach. For example 3 cp for a real servant for a day over 10 gp for an unseen servant for an hour. You only actually sell spells now and then. I suspect that price has to come from somewhere; why does anyone ever pay so much for spells when there are much cheaper ways? But some adventurers do with good reason; it's not overpriced to the right buyer. What's more likely is that untrained labor is paid copper, trained assistants in silvers, professional in gold, and those with PC classes in platinum. The price of a spell is the price to pull such a person away from his highly prestigious work, which comes high paid regardless of his class. It's the going rate for Seals or special forces or bodyguards for the wealthy or etc. He doesn't serve among general infantry nor help people with their basic day to day tasks; that would be a total waste.

That's just level 1-3 with PC classes. Level 5 are the captains, star athletes and other celebrities who get the real crazy money. About the best achievable in the real world.

[Slipperychicken]

I could totally see someone paying 5gp to dry-clean a suit in a hurry with Prestidigitation.

I think the ones who would be making bank (at least at low levels) are clerics who sell various healing effects. Paying a cleric to heal you (or remove diseases/curses, cure your addictions, or heal psychological trauma) is even cheaper than a wand charge or scroll, so there should be a good amount of demand for it. Also, clerics get their whole list, without having to worry about pouring startup capital into a spellbook.

[Gnome Alone]

I could totally see someone paying 5gp to dry-clean a suit in a hurry with Prestidigitation.

Ok, now I just gotta roll that wizard tailor.