Battle Sorcerer

[Shadowscale]

With this Sorcerer variant would it be possible to build an effective melee fighter maybe wearing a mitheral breastplate or something, and what would be a good prc to go into?

More or less would want melee combat to be the main focus using the sorceror spell list to augment it.

[HammeredWharf]

Abjurant Champion is a good PRC for them. Unfortunately, the BAB advantage of this ACF is lost when they take a PRC, while the casting disadvantage stays.

[Muggins]

Battle Sorcerer gets a lot of flak for sacrificing long-term power for short-term power. Sure, you get 3/4 BAB and d8 hit points, but they cease to matter as soon as you get into a PrC. Meanwhile, your spells per day and spells known are permanently handicapped with a -1/level to each. Even the armoured casting is pretty wasteful, since beguilers, dread necromancers and warmages get it for free while most "gish" PrCs will give you an equivalent ability. It's pretty sub-standard, all considered, but there are a few ways around its weaknesses.

For example:

Races of Stone offers the Dwarf Sorcerer 9 substitution level, letting you combine your Constitution bonus and Charisma score to calculate your bonus spells for the day. More useful if you combine it with a Dwarf variant which doesn't have a penalty to Charisma, such as the Gold Dwarf from the Dungeon Master's Guide.
Sandstorm offers the Sand Shaper, a prestige class which gets you a ton of bonus spells known at level 1. There are other prestige classes like this, such as Fiend-Blooded from Heroes of Horror, and most of them can be found here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2777).
Races of Stone also offers the Shadowcraft Mage, a prestige class exclusive to gnomes (or, by DM fiat, a member of a certain organisation). Rather than adding more spells to your spell list, the Shadowcraft Mage just lets you mimic other spells using Silent Image and Shadow Evocation/Conjuration.
There are others, I'm sure, but these are just off the top of my head.

[Kurald Galain]

It may be easier to go Duskblade (if 3.5) or Magus (if pathfinder). Both are basically what the battle sorc tries to be.

[HammeredWharf]

- snip -

Let's not forget the Arcane Disciple feat. Some domains have great spells in them.

However, usually you'd choose Battle Sorc to avoid spending levels and feats, so improving it by taking levels of PRCs and spending feats on extra spells is a bit counter-intuitive.

[Shadowscale]

It may be easier to go Duskblade (if 3.5) or Magus (if pathfinder). Both are basically what the battle sorc tries to be.

I really like the idea of a caster who goes out there with a deadly arcane blade... reminds me of sorceress off diablo II. How would y'all compare hexblade, battle sorcerer, and duskblade?

[Muggins]

I really like the idea of a caster who goes out there with a deadly arcane blade... reminds me of sorceress off diablo II. How would y'all compare hexblade, battle sorcerer, and duskblade?
A Hexblade is little more than an evil, arcane paladin. His spells are practically nonexistant.

A Battle Sorcerer has average BAB, HP and spellcasting. He gets 9th level spells, but not a lot of them. Generally seen as sub-par compared to playing a regular sorcerer and stacking full-bab, full-casting prestige classes.

A Duskblade is your gish-in-a-can, with full bab and some decent spellcasting. Instead of 9th level spells, he gets loads of 1st-6th level spells and can cast spells while attacking. That said, most of his class features can me mimicked, simulated or superseded entirely through the use of prestige classes. His spells list isn't very strong either.

Out of the three, I would personally go for a Battle Sorcerer. Specifically, a Gold Dwarf Battle Sorcerer 9/Sand Shaper 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5.
Sand Shaper grants a few extra spells, Shadowcraft Mage grants some much-needed flexibility and Abjurant Champion is one of the go-to gish prestige classes.

[Kurald Galain]

I really like the idea of a caster who goes out there with a deadly arcane blade... reminds me of sorceress off diablo II. How would y'all compare hexblade, battle sorcerer, and duskblade?

It depends on what level you're going to be playing at. If it's 11-20, I'd go with the battle sorcerer because it gets higher level spells. If it's 1-10, I'd go with duskblade because it gets online faster and has good synergy between its caster and its fighter side. The hexblade is not very impressive; in fact it strikes me that the duskblade is basically a rewritten-only-better version of the hexblade.

[Larkas]

Don't forget to stack Stalwart on top of Battle Sorcerer.

[Erik Vale]

For armor, look ath the Psychoactive Skin of Ectoplasmic armor. For 6000gp it's light fullplate that doesn't actually take up the armor slot. Combine with cheese such as gith/feycraft Dastana, Chahar-Ania and Padded Armor for your armor enchantment needs if you can't convince your DM to let you enchant it as armor. The Enchantment bonus stacks as will any enchantments, and you don't need to worry about more expensive enchantments for your armor needs if you use them.

As for Duskblade being better than Hexblade... Mettle. That is all... Not that you can't get that as a dip.

As for actual PRCs, that depends on exactly what you wish to do with him, however many of the good casting ones loose out on the bonuses Battle Sorcerer gains.

[Kurald Galain]

As for Duskblade being better than Hexblade... Mettle. That is all... Not that you can't get that as a dip.

As I recall, the advantages the Duskblade has over Hexy is that it gets quite a lot more spells per day, as well as class features to combine attacking and spellcasting. Hexy gets curses but they just don't do enough. Mettle is good to have, but as you say you can also get that from other sources.

[HammeredWharf]

Hexblade is a decent 2-5 level class. During those levels, you get Mettle, a familiar, Cha to most saves, full BAB, a bonus feat, some 1t level spells and a rather bad curse power that is a free action. Still, you can combine Hexblade with a better spellcasting class like Sublime Chord to get a decent gish.

[John Longarrow]

Personally, I'd skip the Battle Sorcerer as you don't really get that much unless you ONLY go battle sorcerer.

I'd do a build more like this...

Lvl 1 - Warblade
Lvl 2-5 Sorcerer
Lvl 6 - Crusader

This gives you 4 caster levels (2nd level spells) and 4 BAB.

Lvl 7 - Spellsword
Lvl 8-12 Abjurant Champion (needs combat casting)
Lvl 13 - Dragon Slayer (I forget the feat prereqs, but does need 2 ranks tumble).

This will add 7 BAB and 7 CL with good HPs and some neat tricks.
At 13th, you'll have 11 BAB and CL.

For lvls 14-20 go Eldrich Knight for another 7 BAB and 6 CL giving you 8th level spells with a BAB of 18.

Battle Sorcerer in this mix gives you on average 8 more HPs and +1 to BAB but at a serious penalty to casting.

[fishyfishyfishy]

As others have stated, it's very possible to build an effective melee sorcerer with or without using this variant. I personally prefer the standard sorcadin build (Sorcerer 4/Paladin 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8). BAB of 16, 9th level spells, and a host of nifty class features from your prestige classes. It's powerful, effective, and flavorful. I played one of these using Lesser Aasimar as the race and had a ton of fun role playing myself as an arcane paladin.

[TheGeckoKing]

It should be noted that taking a Bloodline Feat (Dragon Magazine Compendium) can alleviate the most punishing aspect of the Battle Sorcerer ACF. Your Spells per Day are still better than a Wizard's, so that aspect is ok. I'd STILL suggest taking levels in Abjurant Champion and a dip in Sacred Exorcist (if alignment allows for it), because those levels are just that good.

[Shadowscale]

Don't forget to stack Stalwart on top of Battle Sorcerer.

I don't think its fair to take those together.
Just because wizards are tier one doesn't mean sorcerers need help catching up there.

For say a pure melee caster who essentially uses such as true strike and bull's strength along the lines of spell selection. Would there be a way to efficiently build a battle sorcerer 20 then, since multiclassing doesn't seem to be an efficient option?

Trying to cut back on cheese though. Never was a fan of trying to cheat the system for optimization's sake. Kinda ruins the spirit of the game.

[HammeredWharf]

I don't think its fair to take those together.
Just because wizards are tier one doesn't mean sorcerers need help catching up there.

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is probably one of the most suboptimal Sorcerer builds out there. Spells are what makes a Sorcerer powerful. Giving them up for some extra HP is really not worth it.

[John Longarrow]

As a straight melee build, Sorcerer specializing on protection and buff spells along with transmutation will beat out one that swings a sword.

Lvl 12 turning into a (effectively 1/2 dragon) war troll and laying waste with a big stick while buffed to the point you can't get hit is much more effective than using a sword.

Levels 1-3 are about the only spot where the AFCs really pay off. After that, the caster hit puts you behind a straight sorcerer.
Going from D4 to D8 for HP is the same as getting +4 to CON.
Getting +1 on BAB looses out to +4 to STR.
Wearing armor looses out to Alter Self fun.

Start tossing in the 3rd level spells the straight sorcerer gets when most other builds are getting their 2nd, and you can see where this is going.

[Prime32]

There was an unofficial hexblade fix floating around from one of the writers of the book. I can't remember all the details, but he admitted that they'd greatly overestimated the power of casting in armour.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I don't think its fair to take those together.
Just because wizards are tier one doesn't mean sorcerers need help catching up there.

For say a pure melee caster who essentially uses such as true strike and bull's strength along the lines of spell selection. Would there be a way to efficiently build a battle sorcerer 20 then, since multiclassing doesn't seem to be an efficient option?

Trying to cut back on cheese though. Never was a fan of trying to cheat the system for optimization's sake. Kinda ruins the spirit of the game.

Optimization =/= cheating the system. In fact, the build I posted earlier is decently optimized for a specific character concept and has nothing to do with Munchkinry.

That said, it mostly comes down to spell selection. Pick the good buffs like Polymorph, Haste, Wraithstrike, and Greater Mighty Whollop. Change into a troll and beat people to death with your giant stick you magicked up. Oh and take the feat Arcane Strike. Burn those slots for bonus damage.

Multiclassing isn't a bad choice if you're taking a dip into fighter so you can grab a bonus feat and take levels in a full bab-full casting class. Sorcerer lacks any real class features so taking levels in a prestige can give you some nice abilities.

[Rebel7284]

Remember, prestige classes are technically an optional rule.

Without prestige classes, a Stallwart Battle Sorcerer is a GREAT gish-in-a-can! Chose your best buff spells, and cast them every day. Be the meatshield of the group that still has a couple of slots to break reality if the gishing fails. Sure it's not optimal, but it works.

In a game with full access to prestige classes, it's a lot more difficult to justify going in this direction, the main appeal being simplicity. Remember, this type of character isn't replacing the wizard, they're replacing the barbarian.

[Larkas]

I don't think its fair to take those together.
Just because wizards are tier one doesn't mean sorcerers need help catching up there.

For say a pure melee caster who essentially uses such as true strike and bull's strength along the lines of spell selection. Would there be a way to efficiently build a battle sorcerer 20 then, since multiclassing doesn't seem to be an efficient option?

Trying to cut back on cheese though. Never was a fan of trying to cheat the system for optimization's sake. Kinda ruins the spirit of the game.

"Fair"? "Cheat"? Are you sure you're playing the same game I am? A Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 20 is inferior to a Sorcadin, or even to a straight Sorcerer. Taking both ACFs is just a way of saying "hey, if I'm gimping myself to play a straight Gish-in-a-can, might as well go the whole way". Seriously. Just read both variants.

[Pluto!]

"Fair"? "Cheat"? Are you sure you're playing the same game I am? A Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 20 is inferior to a Sorcadin.
Battle Sorcerer casts Polymorph when Sorcadin casts Fly and a Time Stop's worth of Greater Arcane Fusions when Sorcadin casts just one.

With the exception of Divine Grace, Battle Sorcerer 7 and Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1's PrC options are the same, and BS will often be ahead by a feat if Sorcadin uses Practiced Spellcaster to make up its lost CL.

I think people get misled by inclinations to use BS as a straight replacement for normal sorcerer levels in multiclassed builds or caught up with eking every point of HP advantage while the variant's actual strength is replacing the sorcerer/noncaster combinations altogether with Straightclassed Sorc-rate spell level progression, and that strength isn't affected by dipping out for AbjChamp, Sacred Exorcist or similar.

[Larkas]

Battle Sorcerer casts Polymorph when Sorcadin casts Fly and a Time Stop's worth of Greater Arcane Fusions when Sorcadin casts just one.

With the exception of Divine Grace, Battle Sorcerer 7 and Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1's PrC options are the same, and BS will often be ahead by a feat if Sorcadin uses Practiced Spellcaster to make up its lost CL.

I think people get misled by inclinations to use BS as a straight replacement for normal sorcerer levels in multiclassed builds or caught up with eking every point of HP advantage while the variant's actual strength is replacing the sorcerer/noncaster combinations altogether with Straightclassed Sorc-rate spell level progression, and that strength isn't affected by dipping out for AbjChamp, Sacred Exorcist or similar.

I was actually talking about being better at the Gish shtick, not being straight up stronger. The Sorcadin manages to get that fourth attack that a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 20 won't (there's nothing stopping the latter from going Abjurant Champion, but that is beside the point). Besides, the build flows very well, and has actual class features. Thus, it's a better, not stronger, build. Valid points, though.

[zingbobco000]

I'm unsure if you want a spell choice or an idea but here's a AMAZING idea.

Be a kobold dragonwrought white dragonspawn sorcerer. Then take the dragon physcosis, spellhoarding. This allows you to make your sorcerer casting wizard casting while still leveling up in sorcerer. All you need to do then is to take battle and stalwart sorcerer and then you take no penalty because it states sorcerer spell known and spells per day. Ta-Da! You also get some nifty bonuses from having that psychosis. If your DM allows take loredrake. Also take the GDRoP.

[dextercorvia]

Let's not forget the Arcane Disciple feat. Some domains have great spells in them.


Arcane Disciple is usually a bad choice for Sorcerers, since it adds the spells to your list, you still have to learn them with one of your few spells known.

[zingbobco000]

Arcane Disciple is usually a bad choice for Sorcerers, since it adds the spells to your list, you still have to learn them with one of your few spells known.

I agree, arcane disciple is meant more for wizard.

[Troacctid]

I agree, arcane disciple is meant more for wizard.

Right, Sorcerers get their domain access through an alternate class feature instead.

[dextercorvia]

Right, Sorcerers get their domain access through an alternate class feature instead.

That is a pretty subpar choice as well. It forces you into 9 spells. Most domains don't have 9 spells that you want on your limited spells known list.

[Larkas]

That is a pretty subpar choice as well. It forces you into 9 spells. Most domains don't have 9 spells that you want on your limited spells known list.

"Most" is the keyword here. Envy is pretty solid, Pact is situational but useful, Portal is very versatile and pretty good, Summoner is pretty ridiculous, Time is great, Wrath can be nice for a Battle Sorcerer, and from the SRD, Travel is good for utility.

[dextercorvia]

Pact Domain:

Command is so so, but not great by the time you get it at 5th level. Speak with Dead and Shield Other are worthless to a Sorcerer. The pacts are interesting spells, but they are permanent until triggered -- not something you want to cast every day. UMD a scroll for them.

Portal Domain:

This is a decent domain, but Analyze Portal is a waste of a spell known. Things like Etherealness and Dimensional Anchor are also not everyday spells.

Time Domain:

Gentle Repose, Legend Lore and Permanency don't get cast every day. 8th level Foresight is nice, but most of these spells are already on the Sorcerer spell list, so a Runestaff would work.

Wrath:

Even if everything else were gold (and it is not) Tensor's Transformation.

Travel:

One of my favorite domains, but wasting a sorcerer spell known on Locate Object or Find the Path hurts my heart.

[zingbobco000]

If you want a good sorcerer that helps with the melee fighting get battle sorcerer. This gives you no ASF in light armor it also gives you a decent bab. Take around 4 levels in this so that you know at least some spells. Then take around 2 - 6 levels in a melee class, probably fighter or barbarian paladin could be nice as well. After that take 10 levels of dragon disciple the sorcerer PRC that there never was. After that take the remaining levels of the fighting class. There you have a minimal casting fighting sorcerer.

[Pluto!]

I think at that point, you could cut to the chase and just play an Aristocrat.

[Xerlith]

*sigh*
Paladin2/Crusader2/Sorcerer2/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Crusader+X

Melee capabilities with 4th level Sorcerer spells, while you get 8th level Crusader maneuvers. 19BAB.

Paladin4/Crusader2/Suel Arcanamach4/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1/Crusader+X

Crusader1/Bard 8/Swiftblade10/Spelldancer1

[zingbobco000]

*sigh*
Paladin2/Crusader2/Sorcerer2/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Crusader+X

Melee capabilities with 4th level Sorcerer spells, while you get 8th level Crusader maneuvers. 19BAB.

Paladin4/Crusader2/Suel Arcanamach4/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1/Crusader+X

Crusader1/Bard 8/Swiftblade10/Spelldancer1

That works to... *huddles in the corner and starts to cry*

[Larkas]

Wrath:

Even if everything else were gold (and it is not) Tensor's Transformation.

That's why I said "to a Battle Sorcerer". For anyone else, it's terrible, but a Battle Sorcerer might get some use out of it.

[dextercorvia]

That's why I said "to a Battle Sorcerer". For anyone else, it's terrible, but a Battle Sorcerer might get some use out of it.

Still, not really. You completely lose your spellcasting for the duration. By the time you can cast 6th level spells you should have magic items or other spells which cover your Enhancement bonuses to stats, and a Natural Armor bonus. You should already have the weapon proficiencies you want, so all it is getting you is a few points of BAB. Not worth it for any caster.


Apprentice Spellcaster is really nice for a Sorcerer. Among other (much nicer) things things it gets you UMD as a class skill. So, wand chamber a Wand of Divine Power, if you are worried about BAB. But, really, your Gishyness should account for all the BAB you need.

[zingbobco000]

I think at that point, you could cut to the chase and just play an Aristocrat.

Not really as dragon disciples gain a ton of crazy benefits for fighting.

[Larkas]

Still, not really. You completely lose your spellcasting for the duration. By the time you can cast 6th level spells you should have magic items or other spells which cover your Enhancement bonuses to stats, and a Natural Armor bonus. You should already have the weapon proficiencies you want, so all it is getting you is a few points of BAB. Not worth it for any caster.

Hmm, point taken.

[PsyBomb]

Battle Sorc is good for only two things:

1) You can't PrC for some reason.
2) You are attempting a build that REQUIRES certain BAB by a certain point, and Duskblade casting won't do it (I recently built a Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion that started off with Ftr1/Battle Sorc 4, and used it once for an Arcane Archer build that leaned more on the melee side)

[zingbobco000]

Battle Sorc is good for only two things:

1) You can't PrC for some reason.
2) You are attempting a build that REQUIRES certain BAB by a certain point, and Duskblade casting won't do it (I recently built a Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion that started off with Ftr1/Battle Sorc 4, and used it once for an Arcane Archer build that leaned more on the melee side)

From my perspective stalwart sorcerer is a better option. It makes your HP actually better than a cleric/druid/rogue but only for around 6 levels.

[dextercorvia]

Hmm, point taken.

Note: that I really want it to be a decent option. I love mixing my arcane and divine.

[chainer1216]

i built this awhile ago as a thought experiment, basically what a warforged sorcerer who was trained during The Last War would look like, working on the assumption that sorcerer magic pops up randomly and cannot be gained through study/training. so this character was trained to think/act like a warforged of that time, but is also a natural magic user.

warforged stalwart(CM) battle(UA) sorcerer 10 w/spell shield(dungeonscape)

stats
Str:18(16)
Dex:14
Con:22(18)
Int:14
Wis:14
Cha:20(18)**

HP: 142

saves
Fort: 9
Ref: 5
Will: 9

AC: 15

BAB: 7/2

attack: greatsword +15/+10 2d6+9 plus slam +7 1d4+2

1st: power attack
Alt: M.W.prof. greatsword and longbow, W.F. greatsword
3rd: somantic weaponry
6th: Arcane Strike
9th: improved fortification

spells per day
lvl0:5
lvl1:7
lvl2:6
lvl3:6
lvl4:5
lvl5:3

spells known:
0(8):
1(4):repair light damage, grease, featherfall, identify
2(3):wraith strike, invisibility, resist energy
3(2):repair serious damage,fly
4(1):animate dead
5(1):teleport


gear: 7k left
belt of +2str/+4con
+2 amulet of cha
+3 greataxe

obviously not the best build ever, but man does it look like it'd be fun to play.

[zingbobco000]

i built this awhile ago as a thought experiment, basically what a warforged sorcerer who was trained during The Last War would look like, working on the assumption that sorcerer magic pops up randomly and cannot be gained through study/training. so this character was trained to think/act like a warforged of that time, but is also a natural magic user.

warforged stalwart(CM) battle(UA) sorcerer 10 w/spell shield(dungeonscape)

stats
Str:18(16)
Dex:14
Con:22(18)
Int:14
Wis:14
Cha:20(18)**

HP: 142

saves
Fort: 9
Ref: 5
Will: 9

AC: 15

BAB: 7/2

attack: greatsword +15/+10 2d6+9 plus slam +7 1d4+2

1st: power attack
Alt: M.W.prof. greatsword and longbow, W.F. greatsword
3rd: somantic weaponry
6th: Arcane Strike
9th: improved fortification

spells per day
lvl0:5
lvl1:7
lvl2:6
lvl3:6
lvl4:5
lvl5:3

spells known:
0(8):
1(4):repair light damage, grease, featherfall, identify
2(3):wraith strike, invisibility, resist energy
3(2):repair serious damage,fly
4(1):animate dead
5(1):teleport


gear: 7k left
belt of +2str/+4con
+2 amulet of cha
+3 greataxe

obviously not the best build ever, but man does it look like it'd be fun to play.

How did you determine his stats?

[chainer1216]

my group uses an...odd system of stat rolling (4d6, 7 times, drop the lowest, reroll 1s sometimes 2s) which is a pain in the ass when your a DM so i came up with a few standard stat sets for "important NPCs" and this one was 18,16,16,14,14,14.

[zingbobco000]

my group uses an...odd system of stat rolling (4d6, 7 times, drop the lowest, reroll 1s sometimes 2s) which is a pain in the ass when your a DM so i came up with a few standard stat sets for "important NPCs" and this one was 18,16,16,14,14,14.

Sort of confusing but ok.

[chainer1216]

yep. its a system that was in place before i joined the group and i just roll with it (haha, pun!), they just like to have higher stats i guess, and in the end it doesn't matter too much, it just allows MAD builds to work out better.

[zingbobco000]

yep. its a system that was in place before i joined the group and i just roll with it (haha, pun!), they just like to have higher stats i guess, and in the end it doesn't matter too much, it just allows MAD builds to work out better.

Do you want any help with it or something?