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INDYSTAR188
2014-04-28, 08:34 AM
Greetings Playgrounders!

My players are about to reach epic level and so we are reaching the exciting conclusion of our paragon tier story arc (this is 4E but I don't think that really matters). The scene is Cormyr (in Forgotten Realms), the situation is that Orcus has used an evil cult to spread his blasphemies throughout the kingdom (and into other countries), enough to have taken over Suzail and the royal families loyalty. The PC's are now leaders of the 'Free Cormyrian Army' (the FCA) and have gathered several nations support to their cause, the idea being lets stop this NOW before it spreads to 'your' countries like it has here.

I know before they gather their army and march on Suzail they are going to hold a great council meeting. I was planning on having a sleeper agent sneak into the council and explode a bomb. The point isn't to kill PC's, rather it's to kill NPC's and make the players angry enough to attack Suzail foolishly.

I got this idea from Chris Perkins in his blog (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dmxp/20120927). My question to you is, would you be upset about this? Would it make you rush off and do something silly in-game? Do you think it's unfair to blow up NPC's that they care about (and even made up for backstory purposes)? I want to make the game more suspensful and I want for it to feel like no one has plot armour and the bad guys are taking the fight to the heros.

Thoughts, suggestions, any shared experiences (and how did your players react)?

DrBurr
2014-04-28, 09:13 AM
Well are the PCs hiding the fact they are building an army? If not I'd definitely send an assassin. Hell, I've sent Assassin's after my players when they hadn't yet realized they had an enemy. In my experience this action tends to rile their feathers and get Players to act even if they aren't ready yet.

Unless your player's think your trying to win (which I doubt since you've played to Epic tier in 4th) then there shouldn't be any lasting fall out, you might get a scowl or two but that's just part of the game, by the next session they'll accept

INDYSTAR188
2014-04-28, 10:50 AM
Well are the PCs hiding the fact they are building an army? If not I'd definitely send an assassin. Hell, I've sent Assassin's after my players when they hadn't yet realized they had an enemy. In my experience this action tends to rile their feathers and get Players to act even if they aren't ready yet.

Unless your player's think your trying to win (which I doubt since you've played to Epic tier in 4th) then there shouldn't be any lasting fall out, you might get a scowl or two but that's just part of the game, by the next session they'll accept

They have made no attempt to gather this army secretly. Furthermore, they have gone out of their way to look for allies and have even used an artifact as a bargaining chip with some nefarious powers. The only things I'm worried about are 1) they took the time to create NPC's and I want to blow them up, 2) I don't want any bad feelings at the game table.

I think most of my guys will roll with it but my 'most invested' player might be upset. He's put the most time and effort into his PC and that characters background, he's also my rules lawyer and is the other DM of the group. One time I had the PC's in a dungeon and they were in a particularly nasty trap/puzzle and he got po'd and just rushed through and was basically saying (paraphrasing here, it was over a year ago), "I close my eyes and rush through the room, go ahead and kill me now since you're going to anyway."

I don't want to make it sound like he's a consistent problem player, he's not, we have fun and it usually isn't an issue.

VoxRationis
2014-04-28, 12:46 PM
Would cultists of Orcus really even think twice about attempting to kill people in the middle of parlay?
I think not.
PS: At first, I thought you meant "would you as a player blow up NPCs," in a sort of Mass Effect 2: Arrival situation or something.

Nutella Knight
2014-04-28, 05:17 PM
Personally I think killing NPC's they care about is a great way of getting them more invested, when used with temperance, and in this case you have a logical reason for this attack. Targeting a meeting attended by the head of the enemy army is a sound strategy, specially for evil cultists :smallamused:.

Also, the death of these NPC's might give your PC's the chance to use them as martyrs to gather sympathy and rally forces for their cause, specially if the council is partially composed by representatives from the allied nations as well.

INDYSTAR188
2014-04-28, 06:28 PM
Would cultists of Orcus really even think twice about attempting to kill people in the middle of parlay?
I think not.
PS: At first, I thought you meant "would you as a player blow up NPCs," in a sort of Mass Effect 2: Arrival situation or something.

:smalltongue: Well, would you blow them up? You're right, I doubt that they would care at all. Maybe some residual bomb magic turns their favorite NPC's into powerful undead?


Personally I think killing NPC's they care about is a great way of getting them more invested, when used with temperance, and in this case you have a logical reason for this attack. Targeting a meeting attended by the head of the enemy army is a sound strategy, specially for evil cultists .

Also, the death of these NPC's might give your PC's the chance to use them as martyrs to gather sympathy and rally forces for their cause, specially if the council is partially composed by representatives from the allied nations as well.

This is a pretty fantastic point that I didn't even think about - genius! The only questions left are:

- how big should the blast be?
- which of the NPC's should leap in front of the PC's to shield them from the blast?
- should I leave some obvious clue as to who did it or let them sort it out?

Sartharina
2014-04-28, 06:57 PM
And, if the party is truly invested in the NPCs... well, Resurrection and Raise Dead don't have "player Character" specified in the target zone!

Nutella Knight
2014-04-29, 01:03 PM
My guess is that if the blast is big and sudden enough to make it hard to pinpoint who actually did it, but not engulf the whole council, the PC's might find their allies pointing fingers to each other, especially if there is another mole to instigate it. This could make an interesting path as they try to uncover the authors while preserving their alliances, these allies should be more than a little offended if the PC's seem to suspect them.

Having an NPC, who is actually loyal but for whatever reason has earned their distrust, attempt to shield them would make for a rather cool scene in my opinion :smalltongue:, NPC's last tear jerking words for a combo.

As you said it was said this is bordering epic I imagine it could be possible for high level cultists of Orcus to have means of preventing resurrection if they plan this through, no? Well, I never played 4th Edition so my credibility is rather moot on this haha.

But great idea, hitting when their guard is low will keep them on their toes for quite some time.

Dorian Gray
2014-05-01, 05:03 PM
If I were you, I would, in the middle of RP-ing the council session, start rolling dice. I would then take a bite of pizza, continue rolling dice, and not stop until the players ask what is going on. At that point I would grin, say something like, "Suddenly, the world seems to shift. You feel yourself lifted from your feet and you slam against the marble floor. The ruins of the chamber spin in front of your eyes, and warm blood spurts from gashes in your gut and legs."
At that point, end the session and say that the encounter will be concluded next time. :smallbiggrin:

Sith_Happens
2014-05-01, 05:37 PM
My guess is that if the blast is big and sudden enough to make it hard to pinpoint who actually did it, but not engulf the whole council, the PC's might find their allies pointing fingers to each other, especially if there is another mole to instigate it. This could make an interesting path as they try to uncover the authors while preserving their alliances, these allies should be more than a little offended if the PC's seem to suspect them.

I know if I were a demon then this would be exactly the outcome I'd hope for. I might even plant some evidence implicating several different people/factions, including especially the PCs.:smallamused:

Fayd
2014-05-01, 06:29 PM
One of the most memorable moments of one of the few times I was DMing was when I killed an NPC. My PC's ...well, not favorite NPC but dang near close, and the group parental figure. If done well, with good impact, it can really be a turning point, and your PCs could LOVE it, as mine did. I even had an absentee that session who, upon being texted about the event, drove 30ish miles to find out what happened in person. It was GRAND.

Knaight
2014-05-02, 02:15 PM
On killing NPCs - I'm not averse to my NPCs ending up dead. They often do. That said, deliberately going out to kill NPCs for emotional impact (as opposed to adjudicating what happens and allowing it as a possibility, with the possibility for spin for interest between multiple probably options) can easily backfire. Doing it once should be a non issue, but if you routinely kill NPCs that players like, the response will probably just be to stop liking NPCs.

There's a podcast by the name of Fear The Boot with an episode on this. It might be worth looking into.

Spamotron
2014-05-02, 06:51 PM
One potential issue. It is hopefully obvious that this big meeting of allies opposed to him would be a prime target for Orcus and his minions. Your players may think to set up security messures of some sort. If so they may get upset if they feel you just fiated your way past whatever precautions they set up.

INDYSTAR188
2014-05-02, 07:38 PM
On killing NPCs - I'm not averse to my NPCs ending up dead. They often do. That said, deliberately going out to kill NPCs for emotional impact (as opposed to adjudicating what happens and allowing it as a possibility, with the possibility for spin for interest between multiple probably options) can easily backfire. Doing it once should be a non issue, but if you routinely kill NPCs that players like, the response will probably just be to stop liking NPCs.

There's a podcast by the name of Fear The Boot with an episode on this. It might be worth looking into.

I'll check out the podcast. I don't want to kill all the NPC's they like, just a couple :smallamused:. I take your point though and it's worth considering.


One potential issue. It is hopefully obvious that this big meeting of allies opposed to him would be a prime target for Orcus and his minions. Your players may think to set up security messures of some sort. If so they may get upset if they feel you just fiated your way past whatever precautions they set up.

I don't want to fiat the explosion just for plot purposes. They have made deals with some shady groups in an effort to turn the tide in fighting Orcus and this plauge-thing I have going on. They called a 'Great Council' for all the various groups to send representatives and plan for a big battle to take back Suzail and Cormyr and hopefully end the Orcus threat (they won't they're going to have to go to the Shadowfell for that, they just don't know it yet). I'm planning on one of the representatives or their servants to be the culprit. So it's the PC's inviting the people into their stronghold.

Any suggestions for how the bomb might be used (in a Forgotten Realms campaign) or how I can logically explain the culprit doing it would be great!

Sith_Happens
2014-05-02, 09:24 PM
Any suggestions for how the bomb might be used (in a Forgotten Realms campaign) or how I can logically explain the culprit doing it would be great!

What's the closest thing in 4E to a Necklace of Fireballs? Or better yet, a Staff of Power?

Kornaki
2014-05-02, 09:45 PM
"On his surprise round, the wizard seems to cast meteor swarm on his own square, killing himself and six nearby civilians"

It is only later as they are sifting through the rubble that they find a sealed vial filled with some sort of poisonous gas on the body of the nearest person to the wizard. It goes from the DM randomly killing off a favored NPC to the NPC performing a noble deed to save everyone (well, most everyone) else's lives.

aspi
2014-05-03, 08:17 AM
If I were you, I would, in the middle of RP-ing the council session, start rolling dice. I would then take a bite of pizza, continue rolling dice, and not stop until the players ask what is going on. At that point I would grin, say something like, "Suddenly, the world seems to shift. You feel yourself lifted from your feet and you slam against the marble floor. The ruins of the chamber spin in front of your eyes, and warm blood spurts from gashes in your gut and legs."
At that point, end the session and say that the encounter will be concluded next time. :smallbiggrin:
I have to say that as a player, I never mind NPC deaths if they advance the story or build suspense. However, I'd actually be rather unhappy if it went down the way Dorian Gray described - and I'm surprised noone else mentioned this already. If the players are organizing the event, the security for the event and are attending personally, they deserve a chance to stop it. It doesn't have to be a huge chance but it should be there. Have the cultists plan the hit and then execute it accordingly, but give the PCs a chance to catch on and prevent it.

You'll pretty much get the same result as before - your PCs will be angry and might rush into action, especially if someone points out that this could happen again at any time until the enemy is defeated.

DigoDragon
2014-05-03, 08:47 AM
Injuring/killing a beloved NPC of the party can be a sure-fire way of getting the PCs motivated to attack. You just have to make sure that the death is believable (example: the NPC goes off on his own to the market, gets run over by runaway carriage) and that the PCs really like the NPC target.

In Shadowrun, the party really cared about one of their Johnson, named Ms. M. The party had several enemies at the time and at one point one found out what kind of car Ms. M drives. As the PCs were chillin' in their safehouse taking time off, they get a call from a friend that someone rigged an improvised bomb in Ms. M's car. She didn't die, but she was hospitalized in ICU.

The team got together, did the detective work to figure out who planted the bomb, and then went in and took out the villain themselves in the most violent way possible (They blew up his house with him still in it). Sometimes when you motivate the players like that, they get together like the Death Star-- something blows up good in their wake.

Coidzor
2014-05-04, 12:04 AM
Well, I'd be hesitant about invoking "Cut-scene" rules where the players are a captive audience and unable to interact with the world while NPCs they've invested in are killed. I'd also be hesitant about killing large numbers of high-value NPCs in one stroke and would probably have more injured than killed if it came to it.

Any time where you're just straight up doing something and the players have no input or ability to try to prevent or avoid it is something that I feel should be weighed carefully, since spending too much of that kind of currency can sour the player-GM dynamic. That said, as a sort of one-off or once-a-campaign thing you should probably be able to get away with it without spending too much.

Gamgee
2014-05-04, 12:07 AM
I would eviscerate them if I feel it would make the game more interesting. :smallamused:

Edit
As a player would I kill NPC's? Don't make me laugh, but I will (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAf0QnLFS7Q). I killed hundreds of thousands of imperial guardsmen, a dozen tech priest skitarri, thousands of adeptus arbites, hundreds of tanks, let a fellow PC die, a million or more innocent civilians, and massacred the general and lord of the planet all so I could instate myself as Lord General of the planet. There was already a plot to assassinate the lord of the planet and the general to take his place during an ork invasion. It was nothing more than a slight alteration to the plan, but it cost a ton of lives. In the long term? Sacrifice was well worth it I assure you.

Edit
I did it all under the guise of being a hero as well. The people practically begged me to be their leader. All the GM could say was "your really Machiavellian".

russdm
2014-05-04, 12:53 AM
When you need to hurt the PCs, hurt the NPCs. Give the PCs actions consequences. If a hero gets married and then ruins some evil guy's/girl's day with the fact of the hero's marriage know, then have the bad guy/girl harm their loved one. If you really want the PCs to care enough to make the effort if that is not their default, you have to hit them where it hurts and repeatedly.

Of Course, this mentality does cause me to kill every villain I can so there are no loose ends to worry about. Its nice afterward to be able to lie and relax without worrying about anyone showing up to ruin my character's day.

Yeah, I would blow up NPCs, its way they happen to be there. NPCs are either targets or minions.

Sartharina
2014-05-07, 02:08 AM
When you need to hurt the PCs, hurt the NPCs. Give the PCs actions consequences. If a hero gets married and then ruins some evil guy's/girl's day with the fact of the hero's marriage know, then have the bad guy/girl harm their loved one. If you really want the PCs to care enough to make the effort if that is not their default, you have to hit them where it hurts and repeatedly.

Of Course, this mentality does cause me to kill every villain I can so there are no loose ends to worry about. Its nice afterward to be able to lie and relax without worrying about anyone showing up to ruin my character's day.

Yeah, I would blow up NPCs, its way they happen to be there. NPCs are either targets or minions.

THe problem with "Kill every villain you can" is when that is disproportionate to the inconvenience they give you, and you end up with a friend or family member coming to avenge them.

Coidzor
2014-05-07, 12:42 PM
THe problem with "Kill every villain you can" is when that is disproportionate to the inconvenience they give you, and you end up with a friend or family member coming to avenge them.

Not really. They're villains too, they're just coming to you so you don't have to ferret them out as much. :smalltongue:

Sartharina
2014-05-07, 01:31 PM
Hello. My name is Yok-Yok. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

Coidzor
2014-05-07, 05:01 PM
Hello. My name is Yok-Yok. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

So a joke character as serious argument? :smalltongue:

Sartharina
2014-05-07, 09:16 PM
So a joke character as serious argument? :smalltongue:
Not all who seek vengeance are villains, or even Non-good.

INDYSTAR188
2014-05-07, 11:08 PM
What I'm hoping for here are two things; first that the death of one or two npc buddies will get the players fired up about the enemy and second that the various factions at this great council will accuse each other and give the players some headache to deal with. The party has a very high level bard, he probably will find a way to stop the arguing. I think that's pretty great because it will give his character a chance to do his thing, which is nice.

Nutella Knight
2014-05-08, 02:21 AM
If you plan to give the bard the chance to shine you could make it personal for him. One of the NPC's that dies been specially close to him or been the one accused by the other factions, if he has a favorite of course, should make him invested in stop the infighting and finding the real culprit. 'I gave that bard some drama, bards love drama'.

Inspectre
2014-05-08, 08:54 PM
If you really want to sucker punch your players, figure out ahead of time how these cultists are actually going to blow up the meeting chambers.
Doesn't have to be "by the rules" par se in that you don't need to go find a 4E "blow up everyone in this room" spell, but you should have a clear plan of what the explosive is, how the cultists will detonate it, and what the PCs can do to stop it.

Now, you shouldn't set up one and only one way for the PCs to stop this ahead of time, if they actually do take precautions to set up security.
Figure out how you can drop subtle clues that something bad might happen during the meeting, that the cultists will be trying to interfere.
This shouldn't be anything obvious that would suggest "the cultists are going to smuggle in a bomb", but in hindsight it should be obvious to your players.

Now, here's where the sucker punch comes in.
Your players aren't stupid - they're going to expect the cultists to try and interfere with some sort of attack.
So give it to them - have a bunch of crazy cultists come riding in on the back of a dracolich or some other ridiculous, flashy thing.
Heck, make up some rumors that the cultists are assembling a strike team to hit the meeting if your players keep their ear to the ground.
When these guys show up, your players will think they're the strike team.
And then while they're out fighting the distraction, and all the other dignitaries are huddled up together in the bunker . . . BOOM. :smallcool:

For added drama, have the explosion not caused by the Orcus cult after all - it was some idiot with a grudge who saw this as his chance to take out an old racial enemy (or a bunch).
If they're recruiting anyone and everyone, there's bound to be some bad blood between the dignitaries, right?
Then they don't already have to deal with the cult, and the fallout from having their meeting blown up, but they also have to figure out what to do with one of their "allies" who is a complete loose cannon. :xykon:

ChaosArchon
2014-05-09, 11:10 PM
I would eviscerate them if I feel it would make the game more interesting. :smallamused:

Edit
As a player would I kill NPC's? Don't make me laugh, but I will (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAf0QnLFS7Q). I killed hundreds of thousands of imperial guardsmen, a dozen tech priest skitarri, thousands of adeptus arbites, hundreds of tanks, let a fellow PC die, a million or more innocent civilians, and massacred the general and lord of the planet all so I could instate myself as Lord General of the planet. There was already a plot to assassinate the lord of the planet and the general to take his place during an ork invasion. It was nothing more than a slight alteration to the plan, but it cost a ton of lives. In the long term? Sacrifice was well worth it I assure you.

Edit
I did it all under the guise of being a hero as well. The people practically begged me to be their leader. All the GM could say was "your really Machiavellian".

That sounds like a great story to tell the Playground... just saying