Tactical battle map

[arcane_asp]

Good morning/evening to all in the playground!

After a shaky start, my RP group are now quite involved with a long running 4E D&D campaign. They've grasped the rules, started optimizing, planned tactics, etc

Im having a problem with the way they are 'using' the battle grid in combat scenarios. The melee classes are getting stuck in and having a blast, but the squishier casters and ranged strikers always follow the same routine when they take their turns - they make a beeline for the nearest corner of the battle grid/map, and use it as a safe haven to have their back against whilst hurling out damage.

They even ask if they can 'move' off of the map, on squares that arent technically represented on the board. Sometimes I refuse this if there is a good terrain related reason (precipice, water etc) but if they are in an open forest there is no real reason their characters couldnt occupy 'off the board' squares. Its getting repetitive and makes for unrealistic playing. I need to address this problem before the next combat.

Has anyone else had issues with this? Can anyone suggest a way to stop them exploiting the corners of the battle map?

[Inevitability]

Okay. It looks like the players are trying to keep as far from combat as possible. Remember, 4e is a team game, and if you are trying to remove yourself from the others, you'll suffer the consequences.

Some solutions:

1) One in a while, throw some lurkers at the party. Let them sneak up, and then suddenly attack with combat advantage, taking a huge chunk out of the ranged characters. Worse, the leader will probably not be able to close the distance in order to heal, and the defender's punishment will not work.

2) Use battle maps with clear corners. Maybe some old fashioned dungeon-crawling?

3) Make enemies come from multiple sides. This forces the ranged guys to carefully think about positioning.

4) Ask your players why they constantly move of the board, and ask them to not do so.

[arcane_asp]

Wow, swift reply! Good service here :smallbiggrin:


1) One in a while, throw some lurkers at the party. Let them sneak up, and then suddenly attack with combat advantage, taking a huge chunk out of the ranged characters. Worse, the leader will probably not be able to close the distance in order to heal, and the defender's punishment will not work.

This may work - should get them shifted from their comfortable corner position and get them thinking more about what they're doing!


2) Use battle maps with clear corners. Maybe some old fashioned dungeon-crawling?

This in particular. At least they'll know that hiding in the corner leads to getting trapped by enemies.


3) Make enemies come from multiple sides. This forces the ranged guys to carefully think about positioning.

Perhaps... depends on where they start the combat. I try to get a loose idea of where they are standing in the room before breaking out the battlemap (if I get one out before combat begins then they know to expect a fight)


4) Ask your players why they constantly move of the board, and ask them to not do so.

That would be the most direct route, but the players will always try to second guess me - if I start asking why their characters are staying glued to the corners of the map they will know its a tactic I have a problem with and will fight tooth-and-nail to keep their characters in the corners.

Its a tricky issues, I suppose in reality less melee orientated characters would be inclined to shy away from mobs of monsters, but they wouldnt have the advantage of an arbitrary battlefield 'edge' to exploit :smallannoyed:

[Leewei]

One of the unexpected delights of 4E is the way that terrain affects combat mechanics. I'd suggest having an encounter or two where there is clearly advantageous terrain that isn't a corner. This might be defensible high ground that negates enemy cover, or else a large boulder from which PCs can snipe while enjoying a good measure of defense against enemy ranged attacks.

The fight should involve PC ranged attackers positioning themselves here, while their allies work to hold the position.

A battle standard or two would give some additional incentive to hold the ground.

A final thought: The problem here isn't that the PCs are wrong to seek out the best tactical position. The problem is that the best position always seems to be a corner in your encounters.

[Inevitability]

The interesting terrain got me thinking; why make it a static zone? If that's the case, the PC's can just move behind it and keep there for the most part of the fight. Make it a moving area, constantly changing form and maybe benefits.

[Kurald Galain]

the squishier casters and ranged strikers always follow the same routine when they take their turns - they make a beeline for the nearest corner of the battle grid/map, and use it as a safe haven to have their back against whilst hurling out damage.

It's worth noting that most casters and ranged strikers (except rangers) have just about zero powers with a range over 10 squares - which is well within charge range of standard enemies.

The question you should ask is, do the players have an issue with this behavior? Because if they don't, well, you might as well let them. They have (correctly) figured out that kiting tactics are highly effective in 4E, if not all that interesting to play against.

[Tegu8788]

I have a player with Sensing Eye. He not only goes for corners, he hides behind them. My Ranger also gets to the edge of the map and Twin Strikes away, often asking if he can slide a bit off of my forest maps.


Until a wandering monster that was supposed to help them by attacking the first guy it found (coming from where the Ranger had flanked my bad guys), and the beast plowed into him, took a third of his health in one hit.

The Ranger now uses Prime Shot to it's full advantage. Just because the woods are open, doesn't mean they are safe. Go too far out, and you never know what else you may find.

[Laserlight]

They even ask if they can 'move' off of the map, on squares that arent technically represented on the board.

We just had a fight where the caster, as usual, stayed safely to the rear....until a pack of were-rats came up from behind and surrounded him, and suddenly he was feeling very, very lonely. In fact, he'd failed two death saves and was about to fail his third when the combat ended. I expect he'll still hang back, but perhaps not quite so far.

[Leewei]

It is also possible that your tactical maps are too open. Fights in short, winding corridors will necessitate your ranged PCs closing to where they have LoS to the enemies.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Including some terrain that blocks LoS or LoE would definitely go a long way. Or if it doesn't block, at least it gives a concealment bonus to defense.

[Kurald Galain]

at least it gives a concealment bonus to defense.

Yes, but bear in mind that this works on ranged attacks, but not on area spells.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Oooh, good point. Good point.

[arcane_asp]

Okay, so it looks like breaking out some new terrain could be useful. Some great ideas on here, enclosed spaces definitely seem the way to break the habits and get me thinking of some better layouts for the combat maps.

One slight problem - the characters are all venturing through a huge jungle based area atm, there will more than a few random encoutners amidst the trees. Im thinking maybe some larger (4 square size) trees to break up the LOS, and enemies up in the trees to snipe down at them (heh, nowhere is safe!)
There will a dungeon or two coming up shortly, where some of the interior ideas will come into play too.

[Leewei]

Dense, outdoor terrain is great for sneaky enemies. Make your squishy PCs paranoid by periodically having enemies hide, sneak around, then attack from a different area.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Jungle-based area, you say?

Here, this might help establish a sense of scale. (http://www.srl.caltech.edu/personnel/krubal/rainforest/Edit560s6/www/images/plants/treetrunk.jpg) :smallbiggrin: (That tree totally takes up four squares.)

Don't forget ruins! Remnants of stone walls and the like.

[arcane_asp]

Jungle-based area, you say?

Here, this might help establish a sense of scale. (http://www.srl.caltech.edu/personnel/krubal/rainforest/Edit560s6/www/images/plants/treetrunk.jpg) :smallbiggrin: (That tree totally takes up four squares.)

Don't forget ruins! Remnants of stone walls and the like.

Now THAT is a big tree. Yes, this is going to work. Trees that large, the lower branches will likely be at least 1 square wide. Im gonna do a split level map i think, one for the ground, and one for 3/4 squares 'up' on the level of the lower branches. The party ranger is gonna have a blast with that, the others will be running for cover, or failing athletics checks to climb trees :smallbiggrin:

I do remember seeing a thread somewhere on GitP regarding 3d battle maps, might have to check that out too

[docHigh]

I will hate myself for this but.. use night-encounters. Most characters don't have low-light vision and for a ranged PC you need to see in order to hit.

You are in jungle - it is even worse. The trees cover off the moonlight and you need light-source to see. But you know what - the local monsters are used to it. :smallfurious: Add more lurkers and that ranger or blaster is damn sure to stay close to the healer and the light-source.

If the players say they will shoot "random", then:
i) minor action to use perception to locate the square where the enemy might be;
ii) dim-light gives concealment, darkness gives total concealment: that is -2 or -5 to attack-roll (except blasts/bursts);

Fighting in the dark and tree-filled area is a nightmare for ranged PCs ;)
Good luck and I applogize in advance in front of your players :smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

I will hate myself for this but.. use night-encounters. Most characters don't have low-light vision and for a ranged PC you need to see in order to hit.
Sunrod. Problem solved.

[obryn]

Terrain is always a good one, yeah.

But one note that hasn't been suggested yet is that damage allocation is a party resource. If your long-range guys are always off the map, then all damage gets allocated to the guys in the thick of it. It's a defender's job to attract attacks ... but not all the attacks.

If your Bow Ranger is always 20 squares away and taking no damage, their 7 (or whatever) healing surges are all wasted, absent rituals like Comrade's Succor which more or less blow this to pieces.

So ... push them harder. Either use one of several excellent tweaks about extended rests, or make sure you're getting your full 4+ encounters in a day. Eventually they may realize they're not that squishy despite the big W painted on their robes. And their melee folks aren't that durable that one Fighter can take all attacks from all monsters all day.

[Epinephrine]

I will hate myself for this but.. use night-encounters. Most characters don't have low-light vision and for a ranged PC you need to see in order to hit.
Ugh, I have the opposite issue; my whole party has darkvision. They want to carry things like Bottled Twilight and other items that douse lights, which is a nightmare. PCs can counter darkness by carrying light sources, harder to justify why enemies with lit fires, etc., would also each have light sources they could activate.

Split level maps can be a pain to run, but yes, you can map the forest floor and map branches.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Ugh, I have the opposite issue; my whole party has darkvision. They want to carry things like Bottled Twilight and other items that douse lights, which is a nightmare. PCs can counter darkness by carrying light sources, harder to justify why enemies with lit fires, etc., would also each have light sources they could activate.

The answer here is "reputation". You don't go around using the "instant night" trick without word getting around. Eventually, enemies know to start packing light sources and sunrods.

[docHigh]

Ugh, I have the opposite issue; my whole party has darkvision.

You can sometimes make a variation: generate some heavy fog/smoke so that there is (total) concealment. But give to the monsters infra-vision or tremorsense or scent. Or sth. It is almost the same as invisibility or phasing. They probably haven't thought of it yet.

[MrUberGr]

Coming from an ex ranged ranger:

Close quarters combat is fun, but it is very tiring. Your not meant to take a lot of hits, and a single opportunity attack can change the tide of the battle. On our campaing we didn't have a single fight where I could actually go off the map. Either due to thick woods, or because we wore dungeon crawling or because of hard terrain etc etc etc. Just keep in mind to keep it diverse.

Dungeon crawling, misty or dense forest, defending a high point, battle in open field, there should be a bit of everything.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sunrod. Problem solved.

If you are in a jungle that sunrod does nothing to help you see more than maybe 5 feet. Even in a normal wooded area in parts of Ky/Oh/Pa you would only see about 5 to 10 feet and jungles tend to be way more dense.

Other places light can still be blocked by an object. Bright light in a room with pillars? Well behind each of those pillars is a zone of darkness. Heck with the only light source in a room (depending on angle and height of table) a under a table could be a great place to hide an enemy. No one ever checks under tables anymore...

Edit:

Coming from an ex ranged ranger:

Close quarters combat is fun, but it is very tiring. Your not meant to take a lot of hits, and a single opportunity attack can change the tide of the battle. On our campaing we didn't have a single fight where I could actually go off the map. Either due to thick woods, or because we wore dungeon crawling or because of hard terrain etc etc etc. Just keep in mind to keep it diverse.

Dungeon crawling, misty or dense forest, defending a high point, battle in open field, there should be a bit of everything.

Going off this...

Make sure to every once in a while let your players use their tactics just as planed. Let things go off without a hitch and let them feel like badasses.

Cause if you always defeat their tactics or always cause massive problems they may start to feel like they aren't allowed to do as they want. This can lead to problems.

[Kurald Galain]

If you are in a jungle that sunrod does nothing to help you see more than maybe 5 feet. Even in a normal wooded area in parts of Ky/Oh/Pa you would only see about 5 to 10 feet and jungles tend to be way more dense.
Sure, but if the vegetation is that dense, then it doesn't matter any more whether it's night or not, you won't be able to use ranged weapons anyway.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sure, but if the vegetation is that dense, then it doesn't matter any more whether it's night or not, you won't be able to use ranged weapons anyway.

Like that would stop a PC from doing it anyways haha

[Tegu8788]

I'm considering doing a fight in a deep pit, full of spiderwebs. The biggest trick I see is getting it built so that minis can stand, and a way to map out a 3D chart. I've got a flying chargebarain, so I've started adding in second floors to things, archers in treetops, other flying baddies, or stuff that needs someone near the ceiling to trigger.

[Laserlight]

Make sure to every once in a while let your players use their tactics just as planned. Let things go off without a hitch and let them feel like badasses.

Cause if you always defeat their tactics or always cause massive problems, they may start to feel like they aren't allowed to do as they want. This can lead to problems.

Quoted for Truth.

[arcane_asp]

Hehe, just to let you know, I had the party get stalked and eventually attacked by a Bristle Spider (MM2 I think?)

The fighter & rogue got in there and pinned the spider, the ranger, wizard and warlock backed up and began their volley fire. Then -

POW! Stealthy sneaking 2nd bristle spider got a sneak attack in on the warlock and floored him in one hit. Totally worth it to see the looks on their faces! The others formed up deeper into the map and found a good defensible position against the other spider. It made a great battle, there was some genuine terror but was enjoyed by all!

Thanks GitP!

[Epinephrine]

POW! Stealthy sneaking 2nd bristle spider got a sneak attack in on the warlock and floored him in one hit. Totally worth it to see the looks on their faces!

Sounds like great fun! Glad it worked.

[Echobeats]

I'm considering doing a fight in a deep pit, full of spiderwebs. The biggest trick I see is getting it built so that minis can stand, and a way to map out a 3D chart. I've got a flying chargebarain, so I've started adding in second floors to things, archers in treetops, other flying baddies, or stuff that needs someone near the ceiling to trigger.

I did this, minus the spiderwebs. Draw a plus sign on your grid (five squares, one for each PC to occupy, but they can brace themselves against an opposite wall to climb). Then draw another one diagonally beside it, with lines connecting the corners. That's the space above their heads. Then draw more pluses. Climbing up = moving along the diagonal sequence. Obviously the enemies should be climbing creatures. I recommend cave fishers at the top.

(Caveat: In my encounter, the PCs were swimming through a tunnel, found a nice vertical shaft to come up for air in, and got caught by cave fisher anglers. So they wanted to be at the bottom rather than the top. Tactics may be different for a pit situation.)