Killed my first PC-Fair?

[Mootsmcboots]

So newbie DM here. Last night, party level 2, I killed a PC for the first time. He was a bit choked up about it, and a more experienced player, and our DM in the past pointed out something shortly after, that kind of made me feel bad.

So mid combat, against a few goblins and a bugbear, our rogue/swashbuckler Changeling flanked the bugbear with our soul knife. Now, moments later a goblin then flanked the rogue. So we had a chain of flanks going.

Then our sorc rolled in, casts colour spray and the bugbear and rogue go down. Now it had already been close and dirty fighting, the soul knife murders the downed bug bear, and everyone kind of pilled in to a tight confined area, very dirty scrum like, slitting throats, bodies everywhere.

Now the gobbo who moved to flank saved against colour spray, and had already saved against colour spray earlier. So rogue goes down right(unconscious) in front of the him. And the goblin proceeds to kill him.

So here's what my player pointed out later, the sorc was within the move range of the gobbo who killed the rogue. The sorc had already tried to colourspray him earlier, he may have been inclined to head right for the sorc the moment the rogue went down instead of killing him.

Most of the blame has fallen on the sorc at this point, they seemed to be handling the encounter just fine, and he took the risk of downing his party mate with the colour spray.

My first instinct for explanation is that the goblins had already lost a few mates in the scrum, guys are getting blinded/knocked out left and right, throats slit, backs stabbed, the goblin had moved into the scrum to flank and and immediately sees the rogue knocked unconscious right in front of him. So, mid scrum, helpless enemy at an evil goblin's feet?

So he killed the rogue.

Sure he could have gone for the Sorc. But an unconscious foe suddenly at a goblin's feet mid scrum? If I didn't go after the rogue, I'd have felt like I was babying the PCs. I'd have felt like a wussy.

Fair, unfair? While I feel bad, I don't feel that bad. Casting spells that negatively affect your own party members carries risks. It wasn't done vindictively, though colour spray had been used to roll over some baddies in a prior encounter, and used again out of combat to down several potential opponents. Just, evil goblin. Helpless enemy. Scrum fighting. Seemed like what the gobbo would do.

[Madeiner]

I didn't really understand if the goblins kept fighting or had any hope of victory when they killed the unconscious character.

If only one or two goblins remained, i would assume they would have ran away rather than kill one enemy and then die.
If many goblins were still fighting, then it makes complete sense for one of them to stop and kill the enemy that is at his feet.

[Anlashok]

Do ya really think it makes that much sense that, when confronted with a bunch of people actively trying to murder him he'd go out of his way to attack the one person who's already out of the fight?

The "suicide bomber" mentality for enemies that otherwise don't normally think that way absolutely reeks of a DM trying to "win" the game by racking up a huge body count.

It just doesn't seem to make much sense that the goblin would even be concerned about the rogue at that point. Maybe if the goblin had a particular vendetta against the rogue, but the rogue was ganging up on the bugbear and the sorcerer was the one who took a shot at the goblin.

I'm not entirely sure why not going out of your way to try to kill players would be "babying" them either

[Brookshw]

Fair enough, there are arguments for both sides in the risk/reward of going after either. The sorcerer is still a threat while the rogue temporarily isn't. The creature decided to take the opportunity to permanently eliminate the rogues potential threat while leaving the sorcerer to carry on, and considering the sorcerer is already a liability to his own team his priority might be lower. Remember that a goblin doesn't have spellcraft though so the effects of the spell shouldn't be known.

It's a brutal move but not without some justification. I'd say your okay. It's your call and responsibility to make but consider also the impacts on the tone and precedent your setting for the campaign.

[VoxRationis]

Goblins are known for their viciousness more than their tactical acumen. It was a reasonable thing for it to do, taking this into account. It could easily have gone the other way, and maybe it will next time a similar situation comes up.
PCs die, especially when their fellow PCs use incapacitating spells on them. All you need to do is give them a fighting chance.

[hymer]

I'd put it like this: It could be defended as fair, but you shouldn't have done it anyway. :smallsmile:

I'll tell you why. The goblin had two excellent and obvious courses of action, it would seem. He could fight someone who was no threat to him now, but just might become one later. The upside to this was high likelihood of immediate success in that regard. Or he could fight the much more apparent and current threat. The downside was that it would take longer to get success in that regard.
Now, one option leads to a stop in the game, annoyance, frustration, discussion and posting of threads on internet forums. The other leads to the game continuing.
So if the goblin had had no other good option than CdG - and I don't see why a lowly goblin in the middle of a battle shouldn't just assume people who are down and bleeding are either dead or will die on their own, especially since there was no mention of healers putting people back on their feet - if he had only one obvious option and that option would lead to stops, annoyance, etc., yes, then and only then should the DM consider choosing to defecate where s/he forages. And this only in the interest of maintaining verisimilitude, mind.

In closing: I'd try to use my rationalizing of NPC behaviour to improve the game, not stop it.

[RedMage125]

As a DM, I try to avoid targeting downed characters with monster's attacks*. As has been pointed out, from a meta-game perspective, it's just less fun for everyone involved. That doesn't mean I've never killed a PC. I've done so 3 times. Once at level 1, first session, and a lucky crit from a monster while I was rolling in the open. Sometimes the dice fall where they may. That was, in my opinion, entirely neutral and fair. But intentionally going for the guy in negative hit points makes the player (not the character, but your friend sitting at the table) feel persecuted.

*I will make exceptions in specific circumstances. For example, a grick is a creature that explicitly in its tactics that it will target an unconscious character with a grapple check and attempt to drag them back to their lair. A fairly low DC Knowledge (Dungeoneering) check will reveal that to my players, so every time I've actually run a fight with gricks, my players have been aware of the grick's tendency to do exactly that. At that point, no one feels persecuted or singled out by the DM when the monster targets them.

[Madeiner]

Not entirely relevant, but i think goblins are the perfect creatures to play the role of a homicidal murderer.
It would make sense for the goblin to even stay an additional round just attacking the dead creature and using a stone to repeatedly carve his skull in, even if he's already dead. It's easy, he has a lot of hate inside, and he's just venting extreme rage.

[Mootsmcboots]

So first off, I'm not coming from a trying to win mentality, nor am I trying to rack up a body count. My major concern for lvls 1-5 was not killing a number of PCs in my first campaign, kinda a buzzkill. The way the encounters had been going seemed like this should be no problem.

The rogue was not down, bleeding out from a PC attack. He was unconscious from his ally's colour spray.

There were other goblins still in the fight, bugbear was unconscious from colour spray, but the gobbo didn't really have any where to run, everyone was piled up in a small area, and could have moved to the sorc but would have likely been flanked the next round by another pc.

The rogue wasn't bleeding, just unconscious. The goblins wouldn't know colour spray, nor it's effects. It was used on another goblin earlier, but he was killed promptly the next round, so they wouldn't have observed an approx effect duration.

Again, newbie DM, which is why I ask. Again, I am not a murder happy type of DM. It was just the circumstances, the type of fight it was, and the opportunity for the goblin, plus it being evil that lead me to go for the attack. If he had been down and bleeding or something, sure I'd figure threat eliminated, but down from a spell they don't recognize? That guy could get up any second. Goblins just come off as opportunistic like that.

I'll have to do a better job of weighing NPC actions it seems. Again new DM so much of this is learning as I go as far as playing the other side of combat, and never having played 1-5 hasn't helped.

So unless enemies are blatently suicidal, if a PC goes down in combat bleeding, unconscious etc, and there's another viable target, most enemies will head for the other target. Save any vandettas.

Either way, he's dead now. Can't change that.

[Saintsqc]

I think you did good.

In the heat of action, it's hard as a DM to deeply think about the course of action. You think it was the best thing to do, then it's fine.

The sorc did a bad move. Next time, your group will have to be better prepared. They did a stupid move, they have to deal with it.

IMO, knowing that the possibility of dying is highly possible add a lot of fun and challenge to encounters. The best fights I remember are those where my PC almost died.

[Mootsmcboots]

It has lead to some interesting party issues. The rogue was a changeling posing as a human. The Sorc was his life long former orphan friend.

The cleric in the party is a Zarus worshipper, so he was ticked about the whole posing as a human thing, and is now seriously suspicious of the Sorc, and if he knew he was a human poser the entire time.

So glass half full, party conflict can be interesting, makes for great RP

[Talar]

Personally as a player I would be fine with that move on the part of the DM. Adventuring is dangerous, and goblins are vicious creatures (at least in my campaign setting they are, goblins seems to be one of the creatures DM's like to change around a bit for their personal setting) Please keep in my mind I learned in a hybrid 1st/2nd edition game where the relationship between DM and PC's was a bit more antagonistic. It's combat, rounds last all of six seconds, all of a sudden the enemy you planned on attacking is knocked unconscious by his own ally no less seems like a golden opportunity. I understand PC death can/does bother players but it is part of the game, death happens. And there are avenues for overcoming it.

[squiggit]

So unless enemies are blatently suicidal, if a PC goes down in combat bleeding, unconscious etc, and there's another viable target, most enemies will head for the other target. Save any vandettas.
Well not suicidal necessarily. Some enemies hold grudges bad and will want to eviscerate an enemy first. Mindless enemies might attack someone until they go cold. Other enemies, as mentioned by others, have tactics that involve dealing with unconscious targets.

I'm not sure a goblin falls into that territory though. They're evil and vindictive for sure, not the most tactically minded enemy but I do think one would ignore a character on the ground not moving in favor of more immediate threats. They're not a stupid race, so I think one might realize that more active threats should be a higher priority.

If anything I'd think that vindictive and angry nature would get him more keen on dealing with the sorcerer throwing magic a him.

[BWR]

Given that the goblin didn't want to run away, it would have made more sense to go for someone who was still a threat rather than a helpless target. Sure, there are always reasons to make sure something is dead, but they rarely apply in pitched battles of this sort. If you are up against guys who have an annoying tendency to bring their helpless collagues back into the fight, then it makes sense to spend that extra action to make sure he stays down. If you are up against most normal opponents it's a wasted action because you might get lucky and down another enemy with the attack you otherwise would use to kill a helpless target.
Of course, tying with the goblin thread also on this forum, goblins may be crazy little bleeders but they aren't stupid. If you want your goblins to be so feral they don't use tactics, fine, but they have an Intelligence of 10 - they are fully capable of thinking tactically. Sometimes 'babying' the PCs actually makes sense in universe.

More generally, you're obviously a fairly new DM and this sort of thing happens. I'm sure every DM has tales of times they've screwed up, intentionally or unintentionally, and all the bad calls they've made. All players probably remember their first character death. It's a bit annoying right then and there but later they make for good stories about how you all were real noobs and the DM totally screwed you over in that one combat.

[Brookshw]

It has lead to some interesting party issues. The rogue was a changeling posing as a human. The Sorc was his life long former orphan friend.


This is kinda awesome, now the sorcerer gets to brood on his casual application of cosmic powers leading to his friends demise. Queue angst. Tarquin would approve! Now you need to do something substantial with the goblin! Did he survive?

Also a plus 1 for looking for how this situation can be used to further roleplay with the group. A positive there.

[Seerow]

Do ya really think it makes that much sense that, when confronted with a bunch of people actively trying to murder him he'd go out of his way to attack the one person who's already out of the fight?


To my understanding, the PCs started this type of action. Note: Before the PC gets CdGed by the goblin, the Soulknife takes out the Bugbear who was knocked unconscious by the color spray. So in this case, I'd go with it's the party's fault. The Sorcerer's fault for knocking out the rogue; the Soulknife's fault for setting the standard of "Kill guys while they're down rather than focus on living threats". I'm not sure I would have played it the exact same way, but saying there's no logical justification to kill an enemy that's out of the fight when player characters are already doing just that feels wrong to me.

[Mootsmcboots]

When I mentioned the babying PC's part. I'm just trying to find that balance of challenge vs survivability.

I don't want to be blatently not killing them, or not be taking a shot that an NPC would logically take(Questionable for the goblin in this case it seems) to blatently avoid the chance of killing them. Nor do I want to accidentally murder PC after PC.

Alot of this is feeling in the dark, the DM mantle came my way abruptly, and unexpectedly. They know I am inexperienced. So, I think our rogue won't take it personally, he's a good sport. I do feel a bit bad, but in reality it won't be the first mistakish thing I do as DM.

Note: DMing is daunting. props to DMs, whether it's occasional sessions or every week long term. It's fun, but daunting

[Baroknik]

I wouldn't say it was a mistake, personally. It may not have been the nicest option, but CdG'ing a party member makes sense -- especially if the gobbo has seen color spray before and knows its temporary. Since he has had it cast at him 2x now, I'd say it is reasonable he knew the rogue wasn't out for good.

And to those saying it's not tactical...
Which is more tactical:
CdG the guy who is down for one round
Or
Give a attack roll to MAYBE hit someone who has an extra turn over the rogue

CdGs are deadly efficient, use them when appropriate and players will learn to not get caught with their pants down!

[Callin]

I say ya did fine. In the cluster of CQB and you just moved up to attack someone last round and provide flanks and everyone else is fighting all around and not being able to move around much. Ya a goblin will take the easy way out EVERY TIME! Cowards, Evil Cowards, but Cowards none the less. That was a fight he could win, with 0 peril to himself. He took it. And let his clanmates fight the ones still active. Then when he sees his opportunity he sneaks in again and attacks. That Goblin was going for Goblin King haha.

[dascarletm]

I agree with the call.

1: Think of the goblin as a living entity fighting in the heat of battle. He doesn't view it from above as an omniscient (or close to) otherworldly observer who has time to weigh pros/cons of an action. He's in the heat of it, allies and friends dying left and right. An enemy responsible for all this is knocked down from a barrage of colors, I'd say it would make less sense to ignore that opportunity to take out an enemy. If escape was an option (which you said it really wasn't) he could have done that as well.

2: Not everything takes the most optimal course of action. Failing these things is what makes characters believable. Sure sometimes the most optimal choices are in character, but would this goblin from his view even have time to think about that?

[Elkad]

Yup, fair.

I killed my wife's rogue at 3rd level in a similar situation. Big party (8 PCs), various mooks, BBEG behind them. It's crowded. Rogue tries to tumble to a flanking position, blows her check, gets whacked repeatedly and knocked unconscious (at -2 or so).

BBEG is a cleric with a melee bent, currently in the back ranks. She has Death Knell as one of her prepared spells. Intention was to use it on one of her own followers if she had nothing better to do. Turns out she has a free round, and there is the rogue within range (and in a spot that is AoO free). Use it on a dying mook when a PC is right there? I don't think so.

Bam, will save. No? Sorry honey, your character just died and powered up the bad guy in the process.

That fight went VERY poorly for the PCs. Only the fact that our completely unoptimized Druid (new player) had oddly chosen Die Hard as a feat saved them from a TPK. Everyone was down except the druid, who was at negative hitpoints finishing off badguys with Flame Blade. Since she couldn't move and attack both, when it was down to her and the nearly dead BBEG, I had the BBEG run. Intent was to heal up and either return to finish the job or possibly flee and return later. As the BBEG runs down a long hallway, druid calmly pulls out her sling, rolls a nat 20, confirms, and drops BBEG.

[Agincourt]

Yes, I would say this is a fair maneuver. The PCs delivered a Coup de Grace on an unconscious foe. Goblins have average intelligence and it would be reasonable, in the thick of melee, for a goblin to conclude this was a tactically sound thing to do.

One thing: a Coup de Grace provokes an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm). You said "everyone kind of pilled in to a tight confined area, very dirty scrum." 2 Coup de Graces occurred in a tightly confined area, but no mention of any attacks of opportunity. I would think at least one character would have been in range.

[Lightlawbliss]

in my mind, the sor killed him. The npc just did what the sor effectively begged for.

[ngilop]

in my mind, the sor killed him. The npc just did what the sor effectively begged for.

I agree with this.with the added caveat that the soulknife really initiated the action.

The goblin knew he was on borrowed time, and seeing the coup-de-grace going ons thought 'well, if I have to witness that and am going down, i'll give them a taste of their own medicine and take one with me'

But then again I am of the player/DM type that if logically and cinematically my/a character is killed its all legit.

if not.. then no dude that's not cool

examples incoming.
legit death: what happened to your rouge

uncool death: PC mage dies to a max damage crit on a battle axe from a mook orc. Who walked past the fighter and paladin incurring 2 AoOs and surving somehow (fighter missed)

[Shining Wrath]

You could play it that the goblin was contemptuous of the sorcerer's feeble Color Spray, having saved twice, and thought the guy with a knife was a greater threat.

Me, I try to not kill PCs if there's a plausible way to avoid it. But in the heat of battle you did what you did, and it's OK.

[ImaDeadMan]

I definitely feel you did the right thing. I always tell my players that if you take risks, you have to deal with the consequences, whether they're good or bad. I also tell them that if they act stupid, bad things may follow. I'm not saying the sorcerer made a stupid move. I'm saying the sorcerer took a risk and he didn't fully win. Launching a color spray into a crowd of allies and enemies probably isn't the most tactically sound decision, knowing that you may incapacitate your allies.

As far as the goblin's actions, he took advantage of an opportunity. He saw the character wasn't bleeding and just fell over after a blast of color. He just saw the soulknife attack someone who went down after the same blast of color. It's a perfectly reasonable assumption that the rogue isn't dead and the malicious goblin would take advantage of that.

As was mentioned before, +1 for recognizing RP potential from the situation :)

[Vhaidara]

examples incoming.
legit death: what happened to your rouge

uncool death: PC mage dies to a max damage crit on a battle axe from a mook orc. Who walked past the fighter and paladin incurring 2 AoOs and surving somehow (fighter missed)

Points to this man


I definitely feel you did the right thing. I always tell my players that if you take risks, you have to deal with the consequences, whether they're good or bad. I also tell them that if they act stupid, bad things may follow. I'm not saying the sorcerer made a stupid move. I'm saying the sorcerer took a risk and he didn't fully win. Launching a color spray into a crowd of allies and enemies probably isn't the most tactically sound decision, knowing that you may incapacitate your allies.

As far as the goblin's actions, he took advantage of an opportunity. He saw the character wasn't bleeding and just fell over after a blast of color. He just saw the soulknife attack someone who went down after the same blast of color. It's a perfectly reasonable assumption that the rogue isn't dead and the malicious goblin would take advantage of that.

As was mentioned before, +1 for recognizing RP potential from the situation :)

As one of the players, I can vouch that this works. It also motivates us to not devolve into rocket tagging.


I feel you played it right. I've always felt that goblins are one of the creature types that, when outnumbered, are most inclined to surrender, using the following mentality:
On the one hand, almost certain death
On the other hand, absolutely certain death

[Grayson01]

I have to say it was an okay move. One thing to rememebr that these fights maybe be turn based but in a real battle thi sis all happing in seconds, taking a few seconds to insure that the taget is not getting up is worth a few seonds. From someone who spent time fighting in real war that few seconds is well worth it.

[Yawgmoth]

Do ya really think it makes that much sense that, when confronted with a bunch of people actively trying to murder him he'd go out of his way to attack the one person who's already out of the fight? This, 100% this, and nothing but this. If you have an unconscious person and >0 conscious people who want to kill you, your number N+2 priority is killing the unconscious guy; N being the number of remaining hostiles, N+1 being escape. Nothing is going to spend precious time not fighting hostiles; even animals are smart enough to know that survival takes priority over everything else - this includes eating and petty revenge.

So yes, you did wrong. You did a wrong thing for wrong reasons and at no point are you allowed to blame the sorcerer for any of this. He might have left you alone in the room with a gun, but you're the one who picked it up and pulled the trigger.

[Seerow]

This, 100% this, and nothing but this. If you have an unconscious person and >0 conscious people who want to kill you, your number N+2 priority is killing the unconscious guy; N being the number of remaining hostiles, N+1 being escape. Nothing is going to spend precious time not fighting hostiles; even animals are smart enough to know that survival takes priority over everything else - this includes eating and petty revenge.

So yes, you did wrong. You did a wrong thing for wrong reasons and at no point are you allowed to blame the sorcerer for any of this. He might have left you alone in the room with a gun, but you're the one who picked it up and pulled the trigger.

Pointing out once again the PCs set the precedent of killing foe who were knocked unconscious. If it is never an acceptable use of an action, the PCs shouldn't be doing it. The goblin only initiated a CdG AFTER the bugbear got CdGed by the Soulknife. At that point, going for the kill rather than incapacitation became the rule of the day.

[Anlashok]

Pointing out once again the PCs set the precedent of killing foe who were knocked unconscious. If it is never an acceptable use of an action, the PCs shouldn't be doing it. The goblin only initiated a CdG AFTER the bugbear got CdGed by the Soulknife. At that point, going for the kill rather than incapacitation became the rule of the day.

The PCs CdGing first might have made it "fair game" but it doesn't really change the point that it's an extremely questionable move for the goblin to do too.


I always tell my players that if you take risks, you have to deal with the consequences, whether they're good or bad. I also tell them that if they act stupid, bad things may follow.
This should naturally be the case. Though one reason I don't like this argument here is that the person who took a risk and acted stupid isn't the one who had to pay the price in this, so it seems slightly ill-fitting.

and on that note:

As was mentioned before, +1 for recognizing RP potential from the situation :)
So not only does someone else pay for the sorcerer's incompetence, but he gets potential roleplay and plot opportunities out of it.

Really making someone "deal with the consequences" of their actions.


especially if the gobbo has seen color spray before and knows its temporary.
OP did say specifically that the goblin wasn't aware of what color spray did.

[nedz]

I think the call is fine.

One interesting option you could have considered would have been for the Goblin to grab the unconscious PC and threaten to CdG him if the party don't surrender. It creates a crisis and demands a decision, and if the party carry on fighting then they know what will happen.

[rexx1888]

Id say good work. Most DM's tend to not kill PC's, and there game suffers for it. Players need to know they arent invincible, otherwise when they succeed it doesnt feel right or good, because there was bugger all risk involved. Sure, you can mitigate this by involving risk from elsewhere, but it isnt the same as showing them that they may die in any and every fight there in.

keep in mind that your still allowed to nerf fights if they seem broken(certain at will abilities that have no limit an deal alot of d6's to specific alignments come to mind) but thats about finding balance in your game. Once you have found it, its your job to be an antagonist when you are playing an antagonist. that means killing pc's that need killing. For instance, i can guarantee that if dms followed the same negative hitpoints with their npcs, the players would start stabbing downed opponents more often, for fear of them getting back up later. As it is, they are more than happy to decapitate dead corpses to avoid undead an such, its only logical. Id say good work to you :D

[Yogibear41]

So its 1 level 1 goblin against a group of several level 2 players. The goblin essentially gets 1 more move before he dies, and he decides to kill the one player that is down.

Should of just run away IMO. Creatures especially smart ones, don't always have to fight to the death.



One interesting option you could have considered would have been for the Goblin to grab the unconscious PC and threaten to CdG him if the party don't surrender. It creates a crisis and demands a decision, and if the party carry on fighting then they know what will happen.

This is even better.

[Seerow]

So its 1 level 1 goblin against a group of several level 2 players. The goblin essentially gets 1 more move before he dies, and he decides to kill the one player that is down.

Should of just run away IMO. Creatures especially smart ones, don't always have to fight to the death.

You ever seen a goblin run away successfully in situations like this? Trying is a good way to die uselessly. Whereas instead killing the PC means one less enemy to get back up in a few minutes and go back to killing his friends/family.

The only way the goblins' action doesn't make sense is from the context of "The PCs are special and the DM should never take an action specifically to kill them!".

[ScubaGoomba]

It's a perfectly fine move, but expect your game to grow a beard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrowingTheBeard). The reason I wouldn't make the call is because I'd be too afraid of my game, rather than growing a beard, turning into a group of misanthropic killers.

[Anlashok]

You ever seen a goblin run away successfully in situations like this? Trying is a good way to die uselessly.This is getting into metagame knowledge though.

Whereas instead killing the PC means one less enemy to get back up in a few minutes and go back to killing his friends/family.
Because goblins are known for being altruistic. Even barring that, stabbing someone unconscious to death is a great way to set up a revenge-plot for the rest of the party, making it an even worst idea.


The only way the goblins' action doesn't make sense is from the context of "The PCs are special and the DM should never take an action specifically to kill them!".
Or if we're assuming the goblin is intending to win or at least survive the fight. In either of those contexts the CdG is still your worst option, especially when you're unaware of how color spray functions and therefore unaware that the rogue is gonna be back up soon (and hell, even if you do 3d4+1 rounds is plenty of time to let you worry about the rogue later).

The second part of that quote is patently absurd. If anything you have it backwards: Committing suicide purely to make sure a PC dies is the out-of-character "PCs are special snowflakes and our lives are meaningless without them" dribble. And the idea that if we don't go out of our way to try to murder them in uncharacteristic and bizarre methods we're "babying" them or making them "special" is completely ridiculous and you know it is.

[Grayson01]

This, 100% this, and nothing but this. If you have an unconscious person and >0 conscious people who want to kill you, your number N+2 priority is killing the unconscious guy; N being the number of remaining hostiles, N+1 being escape. Nothing is going to spend precious time not fighting hostiles; even animals are smart enough to know that survival takes priority over everything else - this includes eating and petty revenge.

So yes, you did wrong. You did a wrong thing for wrong reasons and at no point are you allowed to blame the sorcerer for any of this. He might have left you alone in the room with a gun, but you're the one who picked it up and pulled the trigger.

Yeah, No! Taking the extra 16 seocnds to make sure the unconscious/downed person does not get up and knife you in the back is a tactically smart decison. Not to mention that the Goblin doesn't really know why the rouge just dropped down or is unconscious he is knows he is now s Vulnerable target that can be taken out of teh fight for good quickly. The Goblin probably does not have Knowledge Arcana or SPell Craft so has no idea what the effects of or what color Spray is, so has no idea how long the PC will be out of the fight. He also just saw and enemy stab a downed ally who fell from the same effect so logically the goblin can think "hey they might know something I don't know about what happen so following the same course of attack is probably a good idea".

[HunterOfJello]

Striking the killing blow on an opponent who has been knocked down by magic is an important tactic. It's also something that a cowardly, bloodthristy, and frightened goblin would do.

The sorcerer sprayed rainbows at him twice and nothing happened. Goblins don't know anything about magic, but apparently that magic wasn't very effective against him. (This is all goblin thinking here). A big human rogue stabbing people with sharp steel weapons from human cities is scary. Rainbows aren't. Treating the big human's vulnerable throat just like the bugbear's was would seem like a good idea at the time.


~~~


The PC died a legit death. It happens and it's highly likely to happen at low levels. It's also a good thing to get out of the way early on so that players will feel like the game has a real danger to it in the future.

The PC had control and made decisions that put him in that position except for the color spray. The color spray was cast by a PC and not an NPC, which led to the CdG. (If it was an NPC using color spray + CdG, then I might regard that differently.) Finally, the goblin took an action identical to one it just saw a PC do. His friend's throat was slit while he was unconscious. Don't expect Goblins to use more humane tactics than PCs.

[Agincourt]

Anlashok, you are not addressing why it is okay for the PCs to Coup de Grace, but not for the NPCs. Anything the PCs can do, an NPC can reasonably be expected to do it too.


The PCs CdGing first might have made it "fair game" but it doesn't really change the point that it's an extremely questionable move for the goblin to do too.

If it's stupid tactically, well sometimes characters make stupid moves. But it was not so obviously "questionable," and we know this because a PC actually did it first. In the heat of the moment, with just seconds to make a decision, people make questionable decision all the time. You likened it to "suicide" but why was not not suicidal for the soulknife?

It boils down to this: whatever explanation the soulknife had for the Coup de Grace, the goblin could have the exact same thought, with the added motivation of a little bit of vengeance for his fallen bugbear ally.

[Anlashok]

Anlashok, you are not addressing why it is okay for the PCs to Coup de Grace, but not for the NPCs. Anything the PCs can do, an NPC can reasonably be expected to do it too.
I never said either of those things in the first place though.

If it's stupid tactically, well sometimes characters make stupid moves. But it was not so obviously "questionable," and we know this because a PC actually did it first. In the heat of the moment, with just seconds to make a decision, people make questionable decision all the time.
The PC chose to play a soulknife, so I don't think we can necessarily assert that just because a PC did it makes it not extremely questionable...

Nevermind that whether or not a PC decided to do it doesn't really change whether or not it was a good move for the goblin to do it. The circumstances between the two parties were not the same anyways, so this idea that the two situations are equitable by definition is silly to begin with.


You likened it to "suicide" but why was not not suicidal for the soulknife?
Either the layout of the battlefield was more favorable or the GM forgot to have the soulknife eat a half dozen AoOs. Though I suppose you could argue target priority there. A bugbear being usually one of the more powerful or leaderly components of a goblin raid, though I'm not sure that favors this argument either since, from the description, the rogue hadn't done much.


It boils down to this: whatever explanation the soulknife had for the Coup de Grace, the goblin could have the exact same thought, with the added motivation of a little bit of vengeance for his fallen bugbear ally.
Well, goblins aren't known for being particularly altruistic, but I suppose these goblins could have been especially dumb and especially altruistic (since that seems to be the prevailing wisdom here).

Even so, again: The soul knife doing it doesn't suddenly make it a wise move for the goblin to also do. The situations the two sides of the battlefield are in are not the same situation, the OP even states that team player was having an easy time with the fight prior to the badly aimed color spray.

Though, to be entirely blunt: The arguments you're putting forward are actually reasonable arguments in favor of the OP's position. It's the bit about "babying" players if you don't go out of your way to murder them and "making players feel the consequence for their actions" when you're doing nothing of the sort that are particularly annoying me here.

[Yogibear41]

You ever seen a goblin run away successfully in situations like this?

Yes, its not as hard as you think if you think outside the box. Of course few if any of the encounters I have ever had with goblins involve them standing there and saying okay I will melee you even though I know I stand almost no chance of winning. Its usually more along the lines of I will get up on this cliff 30 ft over head and shot you, or hide and shoot you, or push small rocks off the cliff on your head, and when you try to shoot me back to bad I have full cover, and when you take the time to climb up to get me to bad I'm no longer there.

But I can only speak for my experiences in the games I have played in which are very likely much different from the types of games you have played in, so to each their own.

[Adverb]

Then our sorc rolled in, casts colour spray and the bugbear and rogue go down.
Hitting your allies with save-or-lose is... impolite.


The rogue was a changeling posing as a human. The Sorc was his life long former orphan friend.
Wait, the friendly he hit was his BFF? Not cool!


the soul knife murders the downed bug bear
This is the thing that, to me, makes the whole thing okay. Once the PCs set the tone of "this is a fight with cold-blooded coup de grace kills", that's where things are.

It seems pretty... normal? for someone in combat to say "you just slit my friend's throat, FINE I WILL SLIT YOUR FRIEND'S THROAT SEE HOW YOU LIKE IT" even though that might not be the best idea for self-preservation. Especially since, if self-preservation is job one, you'd never pick a fight with anything, and certainly never with a party of PCs.

Mostly, though, I just think that anyone who fights dirty shouldn't be surprised to see their opponents fight dirty too.

[Mizr]

Anyone who has actually been in a fight where its life or death knows you don't have time to think things through, and a creature like a goblin doesn't survive by being stupid and leaving things alive behind him. Especially when a round earlier the rogue was stabbing the bugbear in the back. The Goblin doesn't know what the rainbow does, as everyone is quick to point out. So how does he know that the rogue won't get up the second he goes to attack the sorcerer? Boom, flanked. Dead goblin. It is far more logical to take a few seconds to confirm a kill and then move on, than to move on and risk being stabbed in the back.

This was a good move by the DM. Hell, its not even the worst case of a PC casting a spell and inadvertently causing another PC to die. I was DMing once, and as the PCs walked down a hallway, a Yuan-ti cleric inside a room cast a spell at them. In response, the Wizard in the party cast wall of force to seal the room. He didn't announce what he was doing out loud. The warmage in the party in a fit of Derpiness on the player's part, decided to fire a twin-cast fireball through the door... That she was standing next to. Fireball hits wall of force... Boom. She passed her save and still killed herself (sometimes optimizing your character to do tons of damage can backfire :p).

[Mootsmcboots]

The idea of the gobbo holding the rogue hostage definitely would have worked. But again, new DM, new with combat, making snap decisions, there will be opportunities I will miss as the experience grows.

I don't blame the sorc, it's not as if he was like "Hey DM Bro, Ima colour spray this guy, kill him". The rogue does blame him for sure though.

I am not unhappy with the decision. It seemed like one of those moments when your learning, and everything is progressing normally, then suddenly takes a random turn, and you just do your best.

It seemed to have been be rolling along just like previous combat had, mostly the PC's having a fairly easy time of it(Still trying to balance combat difficulty), then suddenly devolved into a mess of bodies and murder. I wasn't really expecting a murder scrum to occur, so it was a snap decision.

I do appreciate all the input and feedback though. It'll definitely help in future situations.

[killem2]

Here is the way I look at it.

When I am a player killing bad guys, I don't double tap people. I don't see why an enemy unless maybe they are a barbarian raging, would it make sense for them to attack the target again "maybe".

And even then, I don't like it.

[Cikomyr]

Twas an "okay" move. I wouldn't call bull**** on it by any measure of the term. But you could have played it a bit better as a GM. I usually flat-out tell my players "You realize you would die there, right? You owe me one" and then pull the favor later on in the game. Getting player cooperation for certain things is usually sweet.


An alternative (and clever) option you could have had is the goblin taking the downed rogue hostage. He puts a knife to the rogue's troath, and ask to be allowed to leave with his life. Maybe with some money.

Would 100% work with the coward-yet-combattive mentality of goblins.

[VoxRationis]

I'd argue that a barbarian raging would be less likely to attack a fallen target, so long as there were other targets above. A coup-de-grace is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, and thus clearly requires a fair degree of concentration (you're not just attacking them while prone, you're carefully lining up an attack against a vital spot).

[Mikezster]

I'd say the call is fine. Little on the harsh side but logical nonetheless, goblins have been known for being sadistic to those who they can exact their limited power on, and never shy about spilling of blood to ensure that they're down.

Personally though, if this was one of their first "lethal" encounters, I've always had a habit of having some higher power of the enemies say something along the lines of "The moment they drop slit their throats, no survivors" as a warning to ensure no one feels particularly picked on, it's up to the players to pull their unconscious friend out of the firing line before the enemies get to them. If not, so be it.