DM is going to let me strike a deal with Asmodeus, need ideas

[Dalasio]

So, my DM is going to let me perform a ritual in order to speak with Asmodeus. I have absolutely no ideas what to make a deal with, as we're just level 4 characters without much in the way of powerful artifacts.

Ideas?

[hymer]

I believe one soul after use, sometimes for a predetermined maximum amount of time (333 days, mayhap), is the traditional thing to offer in these situations.

[Vedhin]

Don't perform the ritual. Ever.

That's the best plan-- dealing with Asmodeus is a lose/lose situation.

[HammeredWharf]

Unless your character is a super-genius, striking a deal with Asmodeus should screw you over RP wise. That's his niche and he's damn good at it.

[JeminiZero]

You seem to have things backwards. Most people have an idea of what they want BEFORE calling up Asmodeus to strike a deal. If you don't have a deal in mind yet, then DON'T call him up to make a deal.

Either just chat with him (maybe he has a plot hook for you), or else keep the ritual on standby for when you DO have a deal in mind.

[Dalasio]

Hmm..So, I am going to go ahead and assume that he would let me use the ritual to talk with anyone in The Nine Hells, so if that's the case then who should I strike a deal with? And..yeah, now trying to make a deal with Asmodeus sounds like a bad idea.

[malonkey1]

Don't perform the ritual. Ever.

That's the best plan-- dealing with Asmodeus is a lose/lose situation.

He's right. By the time you'd be powerful and skilled enough to come out on top, you could just take whatever you wanted from Asmodeus anyway.

[Talya]

Ensure you hire a team of the best lawyers in the multiverse to write up the contract.

Actually, no, that doesn't work. Hell already owns all the lawyers.

Yeah, don't make deals with Asmodeus.

[Captnq]

Treat it like a wish. Write everything out ahead of time.

Editor (Player Only): At this point we enter the realm of DM fiat. The DM will grant one of three effects:
1: Exactly what we wanted: This is the best option for us, as it gives us what we want, sadly, unless we are very inglorious about the effects of our wish, it is also the least likely.
2: A literal granting of the wish: For most DMs this is the most likely situation we as players will have to deal with if we attempt to abuse wish. It will be the focus of our guide. In a properly worded wish, this will be identical to possibility 1.
3: A partial fulfillment of the wish: This is the worst possible effect. The wish simply will not do what we want. This option is less likely than possibility 2, unless we seriously overreach ourselves. As players it will be our goal to avoid this possibility.
The most likely circumstance we will experience is a literal interpretation of the Wish. As the saying goes: be careful what you wish for. But lets look at exact how that might be overcome. I will be using a fairly standard wish: I wish I had one million gold pieces. To avoid a negative effect (yes, a failure is a negative effect, the spell costs 5000 XP) we must first establish the parameters of the spell: Where, When, What, and How.

Where: It is essential that we explicitly state where we want our effect to occur. This is especially important when we creating something or conjuring something. Take our example: I wish I had a million gold pieces. One million gold is going to weigh, by the PHB, 10 tons, and take up, by the Draconomicon, approximately 83 1/3 cubic feet of space. How does this affect our wish? Well, most sinisterly if that much gold happens to land on top of us, we had best pray that we have a contingency spell in place to prevent our imminent squishy death. Furthermore, the transportation of the gold is going to be a major factor. Even the largest bags of holding are far from capable of transporting such an amount of gold, so either you’ll need to wish for the gold to appear in the secure place you’d be wanting to transport it to (Such as your tower, if you’re a wizard you should have one), or to have a portable hole.

Example rewording: I wish that I had one million gold pieces in my possession, located in the basement of my tower.
However, we are seriously overreaching this wish (by 975,000 gold to be precise) and therefore we do not know where this gold is coming from, we only have specified that we wish to possess it. If it perhaps came from the personal trove of a CR 50 dragon, we are, as we say in the business, screwed. Therefore it is necessary to specify not only where in the end location, but the starting location. It is best in this case to specify the creation of the gold (although this will likely get the partial fulfillment option, gaining us only 25,000, I’ll discuss workarounds below).

Example rewording: I wish for one million gold pieces to be created in the basement of my tower.

When: It’s a somewhat trivial parameter, however it is sometimes necessary to indicate a temporal aspect. If you are wishing to obtain something, or cause something to occur, the DM could simply have it occur far later in the future, thus making it a moot point. For example, if we wished for a mortal creature to die, the GM could rule that the wish does nothing, other than assuring that that creature eventually dies, possibly of natural causes. Therefore it is sometimes necessary to establish something like “ten seconds after the completed speaking of this spell.” (One should not use “after the completion of this spell,” as that could be seen as paradoxical, the spell not being fully completed until after the gold has appeared, thus causing the spell to go on infinitely, unable to ever complete).

Example rewording: I wish for one million gold pieces to be created in the basement of my tower ten seconds after the completed speaking of this spell.

What: This is a surprisingly easy parameter to detail, it is mostly important to be exact and unambiguous in what we want to occur, and to realize exactly what we want to occur. For example, in our above wish, in game terms, we want to obtain 1,000,000 GP. However, by stating gold pieces, we open ourselves up to ambiguity. A piece could be the size of a pinhead. So a closer statement would be that we want 1,000,000 gold coins. Once again, we run into the troubling question how big is a coin? So a less ambiguous version of what we want is 10 tons of gold minted as coins. If your DM is a **** however, you might end up with two 5 ton coins. So an even better approximation of what we want is 10 tons of gold minted as solid 1 inch wide, 1/10 inch high cylinders.

Example rewording: I wish for 10 tons of gold, minted as solid 1 inch wide, 1/10 inch high cylinders, to be created in the basement of my tower ten seconds after the completed speaking of this spell

How: This is a somewhat ambiguous parameter, but it helps us wrap up our other parameters nicely. It primarily concerns measurements, sources (see where above), and over all preciseness. This is the parameter in which we ‘exactify’ our wording. The most important aspect of this parameter is providing definitions of measurements. The phrase “As per my understanding of the quantity/quality x” is our absolute best friend in this case. This prevents the DM from using the timeless perspective argument (one day in the eyes of god is as a million years to mortals).
Example rewording: I wish for 10 tons of pure gold, as per my understanding of the quantity ton and the quality gold, minted as solid 1 inch wide, 1/10 inch high cylinders, as per my understanding of the quantities cylinder and inch, to be created in the basement of my tower ten seconds, as per my understanding of the quantity seconds, after the completed speaking of this spell, as per my understanding of completed speaking.
However, we are still vastly overreaching ourselves, and our DM may simply rule that only 25,000 GP appears, as that is the guideline of the spell. Therefore it is necessary that we reevaluate our What and Where parameters. We do not really care if the spell creates the gold, we only care that we obtain said gold. Thus we could try to simply transmute the gold, or to transport it from elsewhere. I personally recommend the former (the epic level handbooks says that we can get many tons of adamantine when attempting to create an adamantine golem, which is worth more than gold, so there’s a precedent), however, for the sake of example let us choose the former, leaving the following example wish:

Example rewording: I wish that 10 tons of pure gold, as per my understanding of the quantity ton and quality gold, be transported from deposits of ore unclaimed as property by sentient entities, as per my understanding of the qualities unclaimed, property, sentient, and entity, to the basement of my tower, as per my understanding of ‘basement of my tower,’ and be minted as solid cylinders one inch in diameter and one tenth inch in height, as per my understanding of the quantity inch and of the qualities solid and cylinder, ten seconds from the completed speaking of this spell, as per my understanding of the quantity second and quality completed speaking.

Which leaves us with one final problem. What if we misspeak? Any DM at this point may in desperation have you make a skill check to pronounce it clearly, or have you speak it out loud for real and hope you sneeze. A cruel DM might say if you stop to take a breath, that’s the end of the wish. To avoid this, not only should you have your wish worded as above, but you should take the time to write it out, clearly and labeled at the top, “WISH CONTRACT”. No other writing should be on it. Then, if you feel the wish is too long to be read aloud, you should hold the wish contract in your hand and wish the following: “I wish the wish contract that I hold in my hand, as per my understanding of my hand and what a wish contract is, is fulfilled as the writing reads, as per my understanding of what writing and reading is.” If that doesn’t cover everything, I don’t know what will.

Editor (DM Only): So the above section is some serious rules raping, as you may have noticed. May I suggest the following: Wish sages. To use wish sages is rather simple. A wish sage is someone with a high knowledge skill in Arcana or spellcraft, depending on your point of view of how the process works. The players makes a request, and the wish sage writes out a contract to fulfill it, based on his knowledge of wishes. He rolls against a DC set by how difficult the wish is. Getting a 50,000 gp object would be a DC 25 check. A million gold pieces might be DC 50. The roll is in secret, then he gets paid his fee and hands a wish contract to the player. The player says, “I wish this wish contract fulfilled.” Poof. The wish contracts vanishes and the wish is fulfilled depending on how well the sage rolled. Most sages won’t fill out suicidal contracts, but players are fine to roll on their own. This way, it gets rid of all the annoying crap while allowing the players a chance to get lucky, instead of just trying to abuse the system.

[Vedhin]

He's right. By the time you'd be powerful and skilled enough to come out on top, you could just take whatever you wanted from Asmodeus anyway.

Or rather, acquire it without involving Asmodeus at all.

[Dalasio]

Asmodeus -really- sounds like a bad idea now...hmm.

How does this wording sound?
"I wish to have a portion of your power and an Erinyes Devil under my command. The devil will, in no way, be able to harm me and the power will do the same. I want enough of your power to give me a portion of your magical ability and to give me the wings of a Pit Fiend, while still keeping my own consciousness and values. This deal will, in no way, kill me."

[BWR]

Short answer, you're better off cutting your own throat than trying to deal with any of the Lords of Nine. Your DM may be nice and let you win, but I wouldn't count on it.


*snip*
Meh, we tried that sort of stuff and still got screwed over. There are too many ways for a creative DM to mess with you. The best way to get what you want is ask your DM straight up what the limit of what you can reasonably get away with is, and stick to that. Try too much funny stuff and the DM will be funny right back at you. Sure, it may make for some fun stories and games (and that's always the best option to choose) but if you want to avoid any unfortunate situations, don't push your luck.

[Red Fel]

As everyone has already said, dealing with Asmodeus is a lose-lose. Heck, just talking to him is bad. Be sure to count your fingers after so much as shaking hands with the guy.

It's not that he will take things from you just for talking to him. It's that you will give him something. I guarantee it. You will do so willingly, maybe even knowingly.

"But wait," I hear you reply, "We don't have anything of value that he'd want." Aha, my friend, that's where you're wrong - people convinced that they have nothing of value are exactly the ones with the most to lose. A person who thinks he has something of value might be willing to trade it, but that's only a bauble. No, Asmodeus doesn't deal in baubles; he doesn't need them.

Asmodeus will ask for a favor. And I guarantee you that will end badly.

"But hold on," you observe, "If I call him up and don't ask for anything, he can't demand anything of me, right?" First off, Asmodeus never demands things - people offer them to him, willingly. Second, if you call him up without an agenda, he'll become your best friend. He'll likely give you, free of charge, a way to call him up in the future. Just to be friendly, no strings attached. And as soon as you accept that, he's got you.

That's the thing. Devils - particularly crafty ones - are all about giving you stuff for free that will end up costing you in the long run. Stuff that corrupts you gradually. A free gift, with no strings attached, is the ultimate temptation, and Asmodeus is the ultimate tempter.

All that aside, if - either for gameplay or character or personal reasons - you want to go through with this anyway, you need to have several things in mind.

1. You have something to bargain with. You are on the Material Plane, Asmodeus is not. You can do things there that he can't. And he will ask for you to do something. He won't ask for your soul; that's stupid and bad DMing. He will ask for your deeds, and nobody can help you if you break that contract.

2. Have an agenda first. You won't succeed absolutely, of course; that's the cost of doing business with Asmodeus. But As isn't a buddy you call up on the weekends to ask if he caught Game of Thrones; he's a businessman, his time is precious, and he will not be happy if you're just checking in to chat. Have something you want, and be prepared for one of three scenarios, all of them bad: (1) you don't get what you want; (2) you get what you want, sort of; (3) you get exactly what you want. That third one is the worst, and I shouldn't have to explain why.

3. Expect it to bite you. Hard. In the bottom. No sugar-coating this; Asmodeus will demand payment, and it will royally mess you over, likely at a major time.

I'd suggest asking for power. Asmodeus loves giving out power. You know what they say about power, after all.


How does this wording sound?
"I wish to have a portion of your power and an Erinyes Devil under my command. The devil will, in no way, be able to harm me and the power will do the same. I want enough of your power to give me a portion of your magical ability and to give me the wings of a Pit Fiend, while still keeping my own consciousness and values. This deal will, in no way, kill me."

Oh, that's adorable. You actually think you'll get away with that. Let's see how that could go horribly wrong.

1. You want a portion of Asmodeus' power. Fine. He turns you into an Outsider, specifically a Devil, to better harness his diabolical power. You can keep your own consciousness and values, but as an inherently Evil being, your perspective on them will change. As a Devil, you answer to him directly; he owns you now. This deal hasn't killed you.

2. You want an Erinyes under your command. Fine. You got it. Funny thing about commands, though, they can be easily misinterpreted. And when you aren't giving her commands, she's acting - duh - like an Erinyes. She makes an absolute mess of everything, and loudly announces her loyalty and obedience to you. Which gets you run out of every town you find as an evil diabolist. Have fun living in exile while your obedient minion gleefully ruins your life.

3. You want wings of a Pit Fiend. Fine. You never said what they were replacing. Hope you don't miss those arms, and take a bunch of points of permanent Con damage as your body gets ripped apart and reassembled.

4. This deal will in no way kill you. Too easy. If you honestly think that death is the worst thing that can happen when dealing with Devils, you haven't been paying attention. By the time it's over you'll beg for death.

As an alternative, Asmodeus may give you precisely what you asked for, without the drawbacks. But only temporarily. You never asked to be able to keep it in perpetuity. Of course, Asmodeus is a reasonable sort, and will gladly give you another taste of sweet nectar... For a price.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

So, my DM is going to let me perform a ritual in order to speak with Asmodeus. I have absolutely no ideas what to make a deal with, as we're just level 4 characters without much in the way of powerful artifacts.

Ideas?
This sounds like the most hilariously bad idea ever.

[Dalasio]

Oh, and, there is currently another God War that is about to start. I assume that he would want a piece of it, but have no way to get to other planes in order to do so. That's where I would come in? Hmm..I can think of clever ways to have this happen, but all of them seem bad.

[Vedhin]

Oh, and, there is currently another God War that is about to start.

In that case, the situation is closer to "lose everything/lose more than everything". And yes, that can happen.

Basically, there are two possibilities:
The DM RPs Asmodeus correctly; you get the short end of the stick.
The DM is using Asmodeus as a tool for applying fiat/railroading; you get the short end of the stick.

[Dalasio]

Oh, that's adorable. You actually think you'll get away with that. Let's see how that could go horribly wrong.

1. You want a portion of Asmodeus' power. Fine. He turns you into an Outsider, specifically a Devil, to better harness his diabolical power. You can keep your own consciousness and values, but as an inherently Evil being, your perspective on them will change. As a Devil, you answer to him directly; he owns you now. This deal hasn't killed you.

2. You want an Erinyes under your command. Fine. You got it. Funny thing about commands, though, they can be easily misinterpreted. And when you aren't giving her commands, she's acting - duh - like an Erinyes. She makes an absolute mess of everything, and loudly announces her loyalty and obedience to you. Which gets you run out of every town you find as an evil diabolist. Have fun living in exile while your obedient minion gleefully ruins your life.

3. You want wings of a Pit Fiend. Fine. You never said what they were replacing. Hope you don't miss those arms, and take a bunch of points of permanent Con damage as your body gets ripped apart and reassembled.

4. This deal will in no way kill you. Too easy. If you honestly think that death is the worst thing that can happen when dealing with Devils, you haven't been paying attention. By the time it's over you'll beg for death.

As an alternative, Asmodeus may give you precisely what you asked for, without the drawbacks. But only temporarily. You never asked to be able to keep it in perpetuity. Of course, Asmodeus is a reasonable sort, and will gladly give you another taste of sweet nectar... For a price.
So... how's this sound?

"I wish to have a portion of your power and an Erinyes Devil under my command. The devil will, in no way, directly or indirectly, be able to harm me and the power will do the same. She will do only what I wish for her to do. I want enough of your power to give me a portion of your magical ability and to give me the wings of a Pit Fiend, on my back, while still keeping my own consciousness and values. This deal will, in no way, kill or harm me. I will get all of this immediately after the wish, and they will last indefinitely."

[Sliver]

So... how's this sound?

"I wish to have a portion of your power and an Erinyes Devil under my command. The devil will, in no way, directly or indirectly, be able to harm me and the power will do the same. She will do only what I wish for her to do. I want enough of your power to give me a portion of your magical ability and to give me the wings of a Pit Fiend, on my back, while still keeping my own consciousness and values. This deal will, in no way, kill or harm me. I will get all of this immediately after the wish, and they will last indefinitely."

You didn't ask to not be teleported into another plane. :smallwink:

[Vedhin]

You didn't ask to not be teleported into another plane. :smallwink:

Or for the Pit Fiend to not try and get his wings back.

[Doc_Maynot]

You didn't ask to not be teleported into another plane. :smallwink:

They also didn't mention anything about being turned into a fiendish squirrel(with wings). Which would not harm them, give them a portion of his power, but leave them unable to command the Fiend.

"Mind if I go back to finish this blood war? Say "No" if I can't. Alright, I'll be off then."

[Actana]

I think the underlying problem here is that whenever you're making a deal with an NPC, the GM can and will screw you over if he really wants to regardless of how clever you think you can be. Any sort of lawyering won't help you against the GM. Because as it stands, you're not doing a legal battle against Asmodeus, you're doing a legal battle against Asmodeus and the person controlling him and the rest of the entire world and who can literally end your character with a single sentence.

So, if you're going to make a deal with the devil, tell your GM that you don't care for arbitrary long winded contracts that will have to find a massive loophole to exploit (because there will be one eventually. If there isn't, one will be made) or screwing the PC over through legal minutiae and would instead prefer something simpler but more dramatically effective, because you're expecting to be screwed over anyway, so it might as well be entertaining. If your GM agrees with this, then you'll both have an easier time with striking the deal and the consequences.

You're going to be screwed over regardless of what you do, so might as well ensure that it's going to be fun for both you and the GM.

[mashlagoo1982]

Or for the Pit Fiend to not try and get his wings back.

I was going to say that.

Granted, the Pit Fiend can't harm or kill the character... but he could imprison the character and make him listen to Randy Newman for eternity somehow probably.

[Red Fel]

So... how's this sound?

"I wish to have a portion of your power and an Erinyes Devil under my command. The devil will, in no way, directly or indirectly, be able to harm me and the power will do the same. She will do only what I wish for her to do. I want enough of your power to give me a portion of your magical ability and to give me the wings of a Pit Fiend, on my back, while still keeping my own consciousness and values. This deal will, in no way, kill or harm me. I will get all of this immediately after the wish, and they will last indefinitely."

Let's see.

1. How do you define "harm?" Because I can define it many, many ways.

2. Neither the Erinyes nor the power will harm you. Fine. But they can harm pretty much anybody and anything else, and the ensuing chaos - which will be a natural and foreseeable consequence of your own actions, nobody else's - will likely harm you. Tough break.

3. She will only do what you wish her to? So, you actually want her to be unable to act unless you expressly command her to do so? Do I have to explain to you why that's just as bad as leaving her able to act?

4. Wings of a Pit Fiend on your back. Fine. As others have pointed out, however, the Pit Fiend may want them back. And since they're his wings, and all, he probably knows where to find them. And since he's not included in the deal, you have no protection against him. Unless you want to renegotiate, of course. And naturally, the Erinyes can't do a thing to stop him if he attacks while you're sleeping - after all, she can't do anything unless you command it.

5. The deal will last indefinitely? Ooh, that's a fun one. Because that means the horrible side effects can too.

And as an aside, I can't help but notice that you're treating this like a wish, instead of like a contract. Asmodeus is not a genie. Everything has strings attached. Do you really think he's going to give you all this stuff, even with the nasty little twists, without demanding more explicit payment?

Bottom line, the more tightly you word the contract, the more tightly you're knotting the noose. In the immortal words of Asmodeus after the Pact Primeval was established, "Read the fine print." You can't outmaneuver Asmodeus on this deal.

But it'll be funny to watch you try.

[Vedhin]

But it'll be funny to watch you try.

Plus, if Asmodeus doesn't feel the deal is advantageous enough for him, he can always say "No". And possibly offer a counterdeal.

[Slipperychicken]

Your GM doesn't even have to be creative. Often enough, he just makes up a loophole and doesn't tell you.


I was going to say that.

Granted, the Pit Fiend can't harm or kill the character... but he could imprison the character and make him listen to Randy Newman for eternity somehow probably.

Or Asmodeus arranges to deliver a pit fiend's wings... in a very heavy box. To an address which the character doesn't live in anymore (or drop the box onto the character's back, if we use the alternate wording).

And then some other agents of hell immediately come over to appropriate the wings (on their own initiative, of course, with no connection to the deal), and reattach them to the original owner. They then (again, independently of the deal) decide to relocate the client to hell for processing.

[Callin]

You could always ask for your soul to be turned into a powerful ArchDevil with no Layer to Control upon death with no wait and to have the ability to Planeshift and Teleport. More Free Will than a Pit Fiend and zero stipulations of service or slavery upon said transformation.


Loopholes are still in there and im sure other Devils will hate ya and try to usurp your power but its a base to work on.

[TandemChelipeds]

Think of something you really, really want from Asmodeus. Write up a contract. Write it in the most airtight, unambiguous, black-and-white terms you can think of. Leave no loopholes. State your price, in the most precision you can manage. If at all possible, make it something that Asmodeus' end of the bargain renders irrelevant. Commence the ritual. Show him the contract. Wait for him to sign on his line.

Don't sign on yours. Call the deal off. Tear up the contract, rub it in his face, then dismiss him.

The consequences won't be pleasant, but they will be very, very amusing.

[Phelix-Mu]

On the other hand, if your character is crazy, stupid, ill-informed, or looks at life like a big joke, then go ahead and make a deal. Expect badness, but badness is pretty much the bread-and-butter of the average campaign. Think about how it will affect your character's mentality when everything goes wrong, life turns into a giant pile of sh*t and constantly running away from paladins. That's some pretty interesting role play material, especially if your character really starts to dislike/hate Asmodeus (and/or fiends generally).

In short, while this whole thing is out-of-game unwise from a perspective of trying to make/keep an effective character, it may be solid-gold for role play and shaping the future of your character's role in the campaign.

Still, they are some pretty big dice you are rolling. And Asmodeus only plays with loaded dice.

[LTwerewolf]

There's another issue here. Devils are legion. If you think he's coming alone, you haven't been paying attention. You also need to contend with Asmodeus' two "bodyguards" and 10,000,000 of his closest f(r)iends that are all likely to be watching the situation. And this wouldn't be the dm trying to screw you over, this would be Asmodeus acting like Asmodeus does. Why make anything remotely fair? Not only that, his deal with you would reinforce to those watching why he's the supreme devil.

[mashlagoo1982]

If I was dming I would probably allow the player to receive a decent portion of what was requests... with some setbacks.

However, I wouldn't have Asmodeus kill the player outright.

An agent on the material plane does have some value.

Instead, the player would need to perform some task to be determined at a later date... if the player does not want to perform the task, the granted requests become forfeit.

Of course, Asmodeus would present his requested task while the character is flying at a lethal height to fall from... or is somehow at the mercy of your Erinyes.

[John Longarrow]

When dealing with the lord of Hell, about the only kind of deal that you should be making is one that you KNOW he gets the better end of.

If you barter for a position in Hell (i.e. what type of devil you will turn into on death), you are not thinking on this enough.

If you set up a sliding scale on forms (with the one you want included) and stipulations on what you need to do once you've become a devil, then you start getting towards your goal.

Talk it out with the DM. If you are in a position to become a unique devil upon your death after delivering N number of souls to Hell, make sure you can more than double the number. That does give Asmodeus a good incentive to keep up his end of the bargain.

It would be even better if you could become the Inspector General of hell in the end...

[Slipperychicken]

Talk it out with the DM. If you are in a position to become a unique devil upon your death after delivering N number of souls to Hell, make sure you can more than double the number. That does give Asmodeus a good incentive to keep up his end of the bargain.

That would be like offering to let someone become head of marketing if he moves enough product (which is a terrible idea in case you didn't already guess). For the number of souls a PC could realistically collect, you're probably looking at entering at a slightly higher level than normal. Like being a Kyton or Erinyes instead of a Lemure. Also, when looking for archdevils (or any leadership position), Asmodeus is smart enough to know that he needs strong leaders who intimately understand how things work in hell, rather than just any bozo who can make a quota. Granted, said bozo could be useful in a position which takes advantage of his talents.

[John Longarrow]

Slipperychicken,

Reading the Fiendish Codex for Hell, Asmodeus is looking for energetic go-getters who are willing to move lots of souls. If you could come in even as an Erinyes you are waaaay ahead of the game.

Truth is Asmodeus is looking for control. If he can get some schmuck who's a nobody in hell into a spot that makes said schmuck totally beholden to him while attracting the ire of every other Devil around, that's a win for him. The Schmuck can't work against him and all his subordinates are looking to oust the schmuck, thus not working against Asmodeus directly.

Politics in Hell are about as bad as politics on a General Staff.

[TandemChelipeds]

Slipperychicken,

Reading the Fiendish Codex for Hell, Asmodeus is looking for energetic go-getters who are willing to move lots of souls. If you could come in even as an Erinyes you are waaaay ahead of the game.

Truth is Asmodeus is looking for control. If he can get some schmuck who's a nobody in hell into a spot that makes said schmuck totally beholden to him while attracting the ire of every other Devil around, that's a win for him. The Schmuck can't work against him and all his subordinates are looking to oust the schmuck, thus not working against Asmodeus directly.

Politics in Hell are about as bad as politics on a General Staff.

So basically, devils are yuppies?

Now I really hate them.

[HaikenEdge]

The only deal you could probably made with Asmodeus and not be harmed by: "I wish to be instantly dead and my soul utterly and irrevocably destroyed, for all eternity, when this deal is accepted."

So, basically, absolute suicide by Asmodeus, if he takes the deal.

[Slipperychicken]

The only deal you could probably made with Asmodeus and not be harmed by: "I wish to be instantly dead and my soul utterly and irrevocably destroyed, for all eternity, when this deal is accepted."

"Please, enjoy Hell's finest waiting room while I consider your offer"

[Svata]

I cannot overstate just how bad of an idea it is to make a deal with Asmodeus. If youare dead set on doing it, go for something that would amuse him, in addition to giving you power. Complete and total control over Mephistopheles, as though he was under the effects of a Domnate Monster spellthat you had cast on him that could not be broken by any means, and would last untl you dismissed him, on purpose, and he could, in no way take revege in any way, directly, indirectly, or by proxy. You'll still get screwed over, but at least he won't screw you over QUITE as hard, because, well, you amused him.

[Dorian Gray]

You could always go for the old standby of wishing for a candle of invocation and hoping your DM isn't wise to the ways of the kobold.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh dear.

Every major entity in the Nine Hells is smarter than you will be at level 20, assuming Wizard maxing out intelligence. And Grey Elf.

Every major entity in the Nine Hells has done this sort of thing a nearly infinite number of times before.

Your DM is well within his rights to use this conversation to destroy not only your entire party, but your entire party for the next 10 campaigns, even if other people DM those campaigns.

[The Oni]

You could, with sufficient legalese, get some powerful juju out of this deal; but there's no way it won't inevitably bite you in the ass, eventually. Because the Big A has all the time in the world to wait, and he never gives anything away for free. Even if he could afford to do that, he's got a rep to maintain.

To get any benefit out of this at all, you must not only specify *exactly* what he's going to do, but exactly what he *isn't* going to do. In exquisite detail. Expect paragraphs. And you must also still fully expect to get utterly and irrevocably screwed at the end of it and be prepared for that, because that's what's going to happen. The questions to ask are "when", "how bad", and "can I come back from it."

[Toliudar]

As with wishes, the way that I'd choose to use this opportunity would be to follow up with the DM in a way something like this:


Hey, I really like the idea of my character making a deal with the devil.
I think it would be funny if the deal we struck screwed my character in some way that he won't like, but not in a way that unbalances the game or makes him un-fun to play.
Maybe we could also tie the fulfillment of the deal into the storyline you're building up.
Oh, and wings would be cool. You know, those big bat ones that pit fiends have? Yeah, those are cool.
What do you think?


In this way, you're putting something on the table that might actually make the DM's job easier, you're being clear about something you might want out of this, and you're acknowledging that whatever you do shouldn't lessen the fun of the game for other players (who now get the schadenfreude of watching your PC deal with the repercussions) or make your PC a lot more powerful than he should be at level 4. Maybe, to be completely safe, it takes a while to learn to use the wings - they start out as gliders, and only get true flying at level 6.

[malonkey1]

You could, with sufficient legalese, get some powerful juju out of this deal; but there's no way it won't inevitably bite you in the ass, eventually. Because the Big A has all the time in the world to wait, and he never gives anything away for free. Even if he could afford to do that, he's got a rep to maintain.

To get any benefit out of this at all, you must not only specify *exactly* what he's going to do, but exactly what he *isn't* going to do. In exquisite detail. Expect paragraphs. And you must also still fully expect to get utterly and irrevocably screwed at the end of it and be prepared for that, because that's what's going to happen. The questions to ask are "when", "how bad", and "can I come back from it."

This kind of things is exactly why Harvard Law banned D&D campaigns.

[Kane0]

Please allow me to drop links to these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?330204-How-Do-You-Like-Your-Devil-Contracts-Convoluted-or-Dark-Side-Up) three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?312587-Help-me-weasel-out-of-a-pact-sworn-in-blood) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302709-Asmosdeus-Campaign), they might be of use to you.

[Red Fel]

As with wishes, the way that I'd choose to use this opportunity would be to follow up with the DM in a way something like this:


Hey, I really like the idea of my character making a deal with the devil.
I think it would be funny if the deal we struck screwed my character in some way that he won't like, but not in a way that unbalances the game or makes him un-fun to play.
Maybe we could also tie the fulfillment of the deal into the storyline you're building up.
Oh, and wings would be cool. You know, those big bat ones that pit fiends have? Yeah, those are cool.
What do you think?


In this way, you're putting something on the table that might actually make the DM's job easier, you're being clear about something you might want out of this, and you're acknowledging that whatever you do shouldn't lessen the fun of the game for other players (who now get the schadenfreude of watching your PC deal with the repercussions) or make your PC a lot more powerful than he should be at level 4. Maybe, to be completely safe, it takes a while to learn to use the wings - they start out as gliders, and only get true flying at level 6.

This, very much. When dealing with Big A, it's understood that things will go south for you. In a very literal sense. But if you have certain agreements in advance with the DM - not specifically on what bad things will happen to you, but generally on how the contract will impact gameplay - it can still be fun for everyone involved.

The players, anyway. The characters... not so much.


Please allow me to drop links to these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?330204-How-Do-You-Like-Your-Devil-Contracts-Convoluted-or-Dark-Side-Up) three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?312587-Help-me-weasel-out-of-a-pact-sworn-in-blood) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302709-Asmosdeus-Campaign), they might be of use to you.

Oh, goodness, yes, those were lovely threads. When I think of that first one I get all warm and fuzzy.

[Techwarrior]

I think the underlying problem here is that whenever you're making a deal with an NPC, the GM can and will screw you over if he really wants to regardless of how clever you think you can be. Any sort of lawyering won't help you against the GM. Because as it stands, you're not doing a legal battle against Asmodeus, you're doing a legal battle against Asmodeus and the person controlling him and the rest of the entire world and who can literally end your character with a single sentence.

So, if you're going to make a deal with the devil, tell your GM that you don't care for arbitrary long winded contracts that will have to find a massive loophole to exploit (because there will be one eventually. If there isn't, one will be made) or screwing the PC over through legal minutiae and would instead prefer something simpler but more dramatically effective, because you're expecting to be screwed over anyway, so it might as well be entertaining. If your GM agrees with this, then you'll both have an easier time with striking the deal and the consequences.

You're going to be screwed over regardless of what you do, so might as well ensure that it's going to be fun for both you and the GM.

I fail to see how this is any different than dealing with Asmodeus 'alone.'

[Dalasio]

Thanks for all of the ideas, I know what I'll do now! :)

[John Longarrow]

And please remember to make sure you keep your race and/or gender intact...

Being an all powerful Pitfiend winged Dryad in the middle of a desert kinda sucks...

[Vedhin]

I fail to see how this is any different than dealing with Asmodeus 'alone.'

The DM doesn't need to disguise his fiat ability.

[HaikenEdge]

"Please, enjoy Hell's finest waiting room while I consider your offer"

Would that work, tho, if Asmodeus was summoned to the prime for this deal? The deal doesn't go into effect until it's accepted, and I'm not sure Asmodeus actually has any power over you until the deal is made.

Of course, I suppose you could add the clause, "This deal only stands right now; either take it, or leave it, but it's right now", but I'm not sure it that'd be helpful.

[NichG]

Every sentence or clause you add to a deal adds just one more place for loopholes or twisted interpretations.

The only way to get what you want out of a being like Asmodeus is to actually have something to offer him that he cannot get from anywhere else and which is far more valuable than a single mortal/soul, and have a way to ransom off that thing piece-wise for the rest of eternity (incidentally, you will run out and be screwed eventually). You're Lv4, so this is highly unlikely.

For example:
'I have the captured souls of two Solars, which I have hidden away in a fashion that will return them to Celestia via a dead man's switch if I'm interfered with. I will give you one of them now, and the other in 500 years if I am still alive and happy with my life then. No, I refuse to sign a contract or specify what happy or alive entail - if I'm dissatisfied in any way, I'll release the remaining soul; its on you to make me happy.'

Now, there's a good 50/50 chance that Asmodeus'd decide 'too much of a pain, I'll just take the one solar and then torment the guy', but at least there's some kind of leverage here. Calling him up with nothing and playing the legalese game gives you zero leverage.

[Slipperychicken]

Would that work, tho, if Asmodeus was summoned to the prime for this deal? The deal doesn't go into effect until it's accepted, and I'm not sure Asmodeus actually has any power over you until the deal is made.

The guy eats 4th level characters for breakfast, and his minions are an arbitrary number of CR 20s with mental scores out the wazoo, plane shift at will, and have been doing this since almost the beginning of time. I'm sure they can figure something out :smalltongue:

[HaikenEdge]

The guy eats 4th level characters for breakfast, and his minions are an arbitrary number of CR 20s with mental scores out the wazoo, plane shift at will, and have been doing this since almost the beginning of time. I'm sure they can figure something out :smalltongue:

I suppose you're right.

[Red Fel]

Would that work, tho, if Asmodeus was summoned to the prime for this deal? The deal doesn't go into effect until it's accepted, and I'm not sure Asmodeus actually has any power over you until the deal is made.

Asmodeus has oodles of power. As a creature of Law, however, you're correct in that he won't fling it about arbitrarily.

That doesn't mean that he lacks power over you before the deal is made. Dealing with Devils is an inherently Evil act, and performing Evil deeds tends to bring you gradually under the sway of Evil powers. Those who define what it means to be Evil. You know, like Asmodeus.

So you've summoned him, but have yet to make a compact. Doesn't matter - he knows who you are and what you want. He knows you now have a nasty stain on your soul. He doesn't even have to enter into a deal with you at this point - he can wait you out. The fact that you're willing to deal with him means you're willing to take the easy way, and the road to Hell is paved with the faces of people buried neck-deep in the burning sand who wanted to take the easy way. (It was originally paved with good intentions, but it's really hard to get stains out of those.)

He could turn you down, right then and there; you'd still be in his power. You're desperate enough to summon him, so you're bound to do it again when you're even more desperate. He could send you to Hell just for summoning him; since your last major act was Evil, he'd be within his rights to do so.

Or he could smile. He could smile and give you what you want. Because he's in it for the long game. He could punish you now, and gain a scintilla of suffering from you. Or he could unleash you upon an unsuspecting world, and gain hundreds, perhaps thousands of willing customers in the process.

Either way, he has power over you. Even if it's not active, mind-control power, he can direct your actions. Even if you never contract with him, he has influence. Even if you never cast the spell to summon him, the fact that you know it and have any willingness to use it brings you one step closer to his control.

Oh, dear. I forgot to use my evil font. How careless of me.

[Shining Wrath]

It's a medieval game, our D&D 3.5, and one needs a medieval attitude. To wit:

The *only* thing that keeps Asmodeus from seizing you RIGHT NOW and doing things to you that would give Yog-Soggoth nightmares, is that there are other entities of similar or greater power that would object.

That is, it's not your own cleverness or power that keeps you out of Hell, it's Pelor and St. Cuthbert and Boccob and Fharlanghn and that lot. And also Erythnul and Grummsh, as evil deities don't want to see other evil deities become more powerful than they are.

Whether you acknowledge them grudgingly or enthusiastically, in a world in which Powers walk the earth and meddle in the affairs of mortals, mortals had damn well better keep on the good side of at least one Power.

[Graypairofsocks]

Maybe your character could make a deal where:
1: If you harvest a certain amount of souls you get to start as better than a lemure (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Lemur_catta_001.jpg/800px-Lemur_catta_001.jpg) when you die(the character is almost certainly ending up in baator when they die) and retain your memories of life and abilities, depending on how many you harvested.

2: your character gets the abilities to make deals with other mortals that would result in their souls going to Baator when they die(so that Big A would get them).


This deal would probably make you useful alive.

One thing is this possibly won't have that much in game benefit.

There are probably lots of ways this could go badly, I just can't think of any right now.

[NichG]

Maybe your character could make a deal where:
1: If you harvest a certain amount of souls you get to start as better than a lemure (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Lemur_catta_001.jpg/800px-Lemur_catta_001.jpg) when you die(the character is almost certainly ending up in baator when they die) and retain your memories of life and abilities, depending on how many you harvested.

2: your character gets the abilities to make deals with other mortals that would result in their souls going to Baator when they die(so that Big A would get them).


This deal would probably make you useful alive.

One thing is this possibly won't have that much in game benefit.

There are probably lots of ways this could go badly, I just can't think of any right now.

The thing I like about this most is imagining the conversation between Asmodeus and his PR guy afterwards... "You've got them so scared of me they're just calling me up to give me their souls, and promising to be my agents in exchange for 'please don't kill me'. This is a lot better than when those wizards were gating me in to clean up orc lairs for them."

[Vedhin]

The thing I like about this most is imagining the conversation between Asmodeus and his PR guy afterwards... "You've got them so scared of me they're just calling me up to give me their souls, and promising to be my agents in exchange for 'please don't kill me'. This is a lot better than when those wizards were gating me in to clean up orc lairs for them."

You see how this works. No matter what you do, Asmodeus wins.

[Dalasio]

Well, we did this, all I got out of the deal was an Erinyes Devil under my command, and I have to kill a priest of every major god in Faerun within a year. Oh, and I have to kill the king of Neverwinter aswell.

[The Oni]

Let us know how that works out for you, haha.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm going to guess here: your definition of major god is not identical to that of Asmodeus.

You are about to lose.

[Yukitsu]

Hmm..So, I am going to go ahead and assume that he would let me use the ritual to talk with anyone in The Nine Hells, so if that's the case then who should I strike a deal with? And..yeah, now trying to make a deal with Asmodeus sounds like a bad idea.

Mephistopheles isn't so bad. Of the 9, that's the one I'd most want to negotiate with, as it's actual power, the way you want it. You just lose your soul in the process.

[malonkey1]

To be fair, if you can make a deal where he's better off not screwing you over and where he still gets what he wants, he'll definitely have no problem taking it. He's a business man first, horned interdimensional harbinger of calamity second.

[Vedhin]

To be fair, if you can make a deal where he's better off not screwing you over and where he still gets what he wants

He's Asmodeus. He's perfectly capable of getting exactly what he wants and screwing you over simultaneously.

[Mikezster]

In short, don't Asmodeus is effectively "God of Evil Lawyers" Setting up a contract with Asmodeus is basically a lose/lose/kinda win but then conscript your soul and the soul of your companions to hell so it's basically a loss anyway-esque deal. Infernal contracts, even with regular pit fiends or cornugons have a tendency to go badly.

[Graypairofsocks]

Well, we did this, all I got out of the deal was an Erinyes Devil under my command, and I have to kill a priest of every major god in Faerun within a year. Oh, and I have to kill the king of Neverwinter aswell.

Your character has booked a 1 way ticket to the Nine Hells of Baator.

[Madeiner]

Please allow me to drop links to these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?330204-How-Do-You-Like-Your-Devil-Contracts-Convoluted-or-Dark-Side-Up) three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?312587-Help-me-weasel-out-of-a-pact-sworn-in-blood) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302709-Asmosdeus-Campaign), they might be of use to you.

A little off topic but...
I think i hate you now.
I followed those links, found a few awesome (as usual) posts by Red Fel.
He also linked an interesting tvtropes page, with the usual warning about it sucking your life out. And i know that, because it happened a few times.
I opened the page anyway, only wanting to read one or two.

It was three hours ago. I still have six more tvtropes pages to read, open in my browser

I think Asmodeus is actually behind tvtropes.

[Vedhin]

A little off topic but...
I think i hate you now.
I followed those links, found a few awesome (as usual) posts by Red Fel.
He also linked an interesting tvtropes page, with the usual warning about it sucking your life out. And i know that, because it happened a few times.
I opened the page anyway, only wanting to read one or two.

It was three hours ago. I still have six more tvtropes pages to read, open in my browser

I think Asmodeus is actually behind tvtropes.

Actually, it's a 1st level spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17350642#post17350642). As for Asmodeus being behind its creation, I'm not going to comment.

[Anium]

I'm going to start a new pc soon and this gave me an idea. Could a cleric summon asmodeus and just offer his services for free?
Like, man, i'm your biggest fan, want to work for you, will do for free, just no contracts or strings attached, just send me a mail when you need something done.

[Vedhin]

I'm going to start a new pc soon and this gave me an idea. Could a cleric summon asmodeus and just offer his services for free?
Like, man, i'm your biggest fan, want to work for you, will do for free, just no contracts or strings attached, just send me a mail when you need something done.

You could always have a cleric of Asmodeus. Though I think he's not technically a deity in 3.5, so you'd be a cleric of an ideal who follows Asmodeus.

[Mystia]

I think the best, or 'least worse' deal you could strike with Asmodeus was to ask him to permanently be your lawyer, and act accordingly, in the best of your interests.
Of course, you'd still be in the very short end, and this deal would have consequences that'd haunt you for the rest of your life, and even after. But, regarding lawyers, when doesn't it end like that?
At least you would never lose at court again, ever. Plus, when you go to hell, as per Fiendish Codex, you have the right for a court to decide the destiny of your soul - for which, you've guessed, you can call in your own lawyer.

Edit: There it goes. Thanks, Slipperychicken!

[Slipperychicken]

I think the best, or 'least worse' deal you could strike with Asmodeus was to ask him to permanently be your lawyer, and act accordingly, in the best of your interests.

I'm not even sure what anyone (much less a 4th level character) could possibly give him to make that deal worthwhile. EDIT: Whoops, missed a spot check there.

You can make blue text by selecting the "color" dropdown menu here, and selecting the desired color.
http://i.imgur.com/kFmoCNC.png


I'm going to start a new pc soon and this gave me an idea. Could a cleric summon asmodeus and just offer his services for free?
Like, man, i'm your biggest fan, want to work for you, will do for free, just no contracts or strings attached, just send me a mail when you need something done.

By the time you can summon Asmodeus, you really don't need his help.

[underlaud]

The best option is Not to do it... Not with Asmodeus, not with Bel, not with Dispater, not with a Imp. IF your dm plays a devil correctly, the odds of you getting a lasting benefit from a Contract is very low for a cost very high (your soul.) IF you are insistent, read the Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells and that will at least show you what you are getting into. They have a chapter (or a subsection of a chapter) regrading the differnet types of contracts you can get.

In no situation have I ever seen anything but bad things come of making a deal with a devil, the Arch-Devils much more so.

[Graypairofsocks]

You could always have a cleric of Asmodeus. Though I think he's not technically a deity in 3.5, so you'd be a cleric of an ideal who follows Asmodeus.

You can actually be a cleric of creatures that aren't deities and still get spells.

I think the domains his clerics get are described somewhere(Probably Fiendish Codex II).

[Thiyr]

He's Asmodeus. He's perfectly capable of getting exactly what he wants and screwing you over simultaneously.

The trick is setting it up so that Big A doesn't -want- to screw you over, for his own reasons. Don't try and hide that you're manipulating him, 'cause you'll fail. But if not screwing you over is more profitable in the long run for him, why would he bother to do that?

Big guidelines to consider: Request something he'd want to do anyway. If you want material wealth, don't ask for a hoard of treasure. Ask for the means to personally cause the economic ruin of a local wealthy good-aligned church. You're getting what you want, he's getting something that further's his goals (spreading evil) with a small enough footprint that he won't have to retweak all of his plans around it (and why wouldn't he want the progress, however small it is? He has plenty of time), and you haven't even gotten to what you're giving him yet.

Asmodeus is all about having power. He want to be in control, and he's smart. That means he recognizes that a dead pawn is far less useful than a living one, meaning he will not sacrifice you lightly if you prove yourself to be a useful pawn. If your request is framed in the context of doing his work, of being someone he can use, that's all the more reason for him to take it. His agents don't appear from nowhere, and it never hurts having more minions. Grow, excel, and he will be willing to expend more effort on keeping you breathing and enacting his plans.

Finally, remember to keep a check on yourself. When you're a small fry, don't ask for his ruby rod. Not only will you lack sufficient capital to barter with him for it, but you're gonna piss him off, both for wasting his time and for insinuating that you could use it better. Keep your requests within reasonable limits based on who you are. As mentioned before, the more useful, powerful, and above all loyal you are, the more willing he will be to put a bit more your way. Rewarding good service is in fitting with his lawful nature, provided there's no other factors.

Speaking of other factors, do not try to double deal him at all. If you're dealing with Asmodeus, if you care about having any life expectancy, every action you ever take from that point on needs to be dedicated to furthering his goals, in a way he finds acceptable. He has agents everywhere, he will find out if you skim a few pennies off the top. Don't give him a single thing to ever truly hold against you. That's not to say you need to be his mindless yesman. Bucking his authority in a way that benefits him is acceptable, but that's material more for the Advanced Agents of Asmodeus 401 class.

Ultimately, if that's the direction you'd like the game to go, deal away. Otherwise, might be better to pocket the ritual until you really, really need it, and make a deal that is absurdly lopsided in his favor but still gets you exactly what you need. Preferably at the very, very end of the campaign, as your ace in the hole.

Or wish for a doughnut. A fresh cake doughnut. With frosting, and sprinkles.

[Vedhin]

The trick is setting it up so that Big A doesn't -want- to screw you over, for his own reasons. Don't try and hide that you're manipulating him, 'cause you'll fail. But if not screwing you over is more profitable in the long run for him, why would he bother to do that?

And, pray tell, how would you set things up so that him screwing you over will always be worse than him not doing so?

[Red Fel]

The trick is setting it up so that Big A doesn't -want- to screw you over, for his own reasons. Don't try and hide that you're manipulating him, 'cause you'll fail. But if not screwing you over is more profitable in the long run for him, why would he bother to do that?
Oh, I could think of a few reasons.
Because he's Evil. Because nothing you could to would make it more profitable for him to not screw you over. Because he's seriously Evil. Because he doesn't want people to start thinking that they can get the better of him in any deal. Did I mention just how Evil? Because he sincerely believes that Evil mortals deserve punishment, and simply entering into a deal with him is an Evil act. I can't believe I have to repeat myself. Capital-E Evil. Because he is a Lawful being, and it is his duty, not merely his pleasure, to inflict suffering on the wicked. That includes you.

[Thiyr]

And, pray tell, how would you set things up so that him screwing you over will always be worse than him not doing so?

I never said it was easy :P That was my biggest thing, even if you do successfully deal with him, its a long, hard road. That said, its all a matter of what he gains and loses by screwing you over. Easiest path is the "become a new agent for him" route, though eventually it could a matter of making it difficult enough for him to do that it won't be worth the time and effort. The big point is mostly that legalese is doomed to fail outright. If you try to trick him, he will turn it around on you. But playing to his desires, giving without taking, that at least has a chance to work. Specifics are a matter of setting though, to be honest, but if you can figure out what he wants and, even if not provide it outright, provide tangible progress towards it, that works as well.


Oh, I could think of a few reasons.
Because he's Evil. Because nothing you could to would make it more profitable for him to not screw you over. Because he's seriously Evil. Because he doesn't want people to start thinking that they can get the better of him in any deal. Did I mention just how Evil? Because he sincerely believes that Evil mortals deserve punishment, and simply entering into a deal with him is an Evil act. I can't believe I have to repeat myself. Capital-E Evil. Because he is a Lawful being, and it is his duty, not merely his pleasure, to inflict suffering on the wicked. That includes you.

In order

So? Evil doesn't mean wasteful.
Really? There are absolutely NO ways that Asmodeus could make use of someone who wants to help him? If that's the case, then he is the absolute worst chess player ever. New eyes and ears on the material plane never hurt a schemer like that. Someone willing to torch a town to prevent the rise of a great hero (or stop a misguided cultist from torching it so the hero never gets inspired). Hell, even just someone willing to spread that evil goodness around the prime. Think of it like an extention of the Evil Overlord List's rule 32. good minions, like messengers, are hard to find. when one is handing themselves over to you, act with caution, but take it.
And he's seriously smart. The epitome of the Chessmaster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChessmaster). More pieces on the board means more options.
Good thing you're not trying to get the better of him. That was my point, you make every effort to make him get the better of you for your benefit.
Did I mention how smart he is? I did? Well, how about his willingness to work on both the large and small scales. BoVD describes him as "willing to focus his attention even on the status of even a lowly mortal soul." He's not some ravening demon, he's a devil. If he can make use of you, he will, mercilessly.
That doesn't jive with his stated goals (see his description in BoVD/FCII), where one of his primary motives is spreading evil. Also, why/how would he have human cults (mind you, the biggest cults of any of the lords of the hells) if he was so gung-ho about immediate punishment?
Capital-E Evil =/= mustache twirling villainy.
Interestingly enough, that's actually not QUITE accurate. He is bound to punish those who break the law, not those that are evil. He similarly encourages evil actions to take place, ensuring souls continue to enter his domain, to be turned into devils, thus giving him more power. Suitably powerful and evil individuals could get bumped up the ladder from the get-go, meaning he would encourage people to act in evil ways prior to their inevitable demise, in order to provide him stronger soldiers. Why NOT encourage you to reach your full (evil) potential before snapping you up? And in the meantime, why NOT get some work he wanted done completed? Less power expended, more gained, a major part of his motives fulfilled on the small scale.

[Red Fel]

In order

So? Evil doesn't mean wasteful.
Really? There are absolutely NO ways that Asmodeus could make use of someone who wants to help him? If that's the case, then he is the absolute worst chess player ever. New eyes and ears on the material plane never hurt a schemer like that. Someone willing to torch a town to prevent the rise of a great hero (or stop a misguided cultist from torching it so the hero never gets inspired). Hell, even just someone willing to spread that evil goodness around the prime. Think of it like an extention of the Evil Overlord List's rule 32. good minions, like messengers, are hard to find. when one is handing themselves over to you, act with caution, but take it.
And he's seriously smart. The epitome of the Chessmaster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChessmaster). More pieces on the board means more options.
Good thing you're not trying to get the better of him. That was my point, you make every effort to make him get the better of you for your benefit.
Did I mention how smart he is? I did? Well, how about his willingness to work on both the large and small scales. BoVD describes him as "willing to focus his attention even on the status of even a lowly mortal soul." He's not some ravening demon, he's a devil. If he can make use of you, he will, mercilessly.
That doesn't jive with his stated goals (see his description in BoVD/FCII), where one of his primary motives is spreading evil. Also, why/how would he have human cults (mind you, the biggest cults of any of the lords of the hells) if he was so gung-ho about immediate punishment?
Capital-E Evil =/= mustache twirling villainy.
Interestingly enough, that's actually not QUITE accurate. He is bound to punish those who break the law, not those that are evil. He similarly encourages evil actions to take place, ensuring souls continue to enter his domain, to be turned into devils, thus giving him more power. Suitably powerful and evil individuals could get bumped up the ladder from the get-go, meaning he would encourage people to act in evil ways prior to their inevitable demise, in order to provide him stronger soldiers. Why NOT encourage you to reach your full (evil) potential before snapping you up? And in the meantime, why NOT get some work he wanted done completed? Less power expended, more gained, a major part of his motives fulfilled on the small scale.


Yay, post ping-pong!
True. Not every villain does it "for the evulz." But even the most organized, efficient, ruthlessly effective villains should take the time to kick the puppy. It's very cathartic. Asmodeus doesn't care if you want to help him. You, the PC, are an insignificant and ephemeral mote in the cosmos. If an ant came to you and offered you assistance - even if it were capable of such a thing - would you even consider it? Honestly? That's what we're dealing with here. He has had aeons to plan his chess moves. Do you really think he's going to offer you anything in exchange for becoming yet another pawn? He's better served just ignoring you, and letting you think you can impress him with your acts. Ah, but you are getting the better of him, by getting out of the deal without penalty. Nobody walks away with clean hands; it sets a bad precedent. If. Actually, it does jive with his goals. He wants to spread Evil, and punish it. Two-fer. Entirely valid point. Like I said above, he wants to spread Evil so that he can punish it. The problem is, he doesn't need sycophants. They'll just remain larval-level devils for centuries, crawling on their bellies in death just as they did in life. He wants people with ambition. And people who come to him asking for nothing, and offering everything, are not people with ambition; they're worms.
I do like your analysis, though.

And at the end of the day, Asmodeus is a DM prop. So your mileage will vary.

[malonkey1]

Yay, post ping-pong!
True. Not every villain does it "for the evulz." But even the most organized, efficient, ruthlessly effective villains should take the time to kick the puppy. It's very cathartic. Asmodeus doesn't care if you want to help him. You, the PC, are an insignificant and ephemeral mote in the cosmos. If an ant came to you and offered you assistance - even if it were capable of such a thing - would you even consider it? Honestly? That's what we're dealing with here. He has had aeons to plan his chess moves. Do you really think he's going to offer you anything in exchange for becoming yet another pawn? He's better served just ignoring you, and letting you think you can impress him with your acts. Ah, but you are getting the better of him, by getting out of the deal without penalty. Nobody walks away with clean hands; it sets a bad precedent. If. Actually, it does jive with his goals. He wants to spread Evil, and punish it. Two-fer. Entirely valid point. Like I said above, he wants to spread Evil so that he can punish it. The problem is, he doesn't need sycophants. They'll just remain larval-level devils for centuries, crawling on their bellies in death just as they did in life. He wants people with ambition. And people who come to him asking for nothing, and offering everything, are not people with ambition; they're worms.
I do like your analysis, though.

And at the end of the day, Asmodeus is a DM prop. So your mileage will vary.


That may be, but point 2 in your response would nullify the argument in point 1. If mortals are so insignificant, why waste time hurting it? I hate ants, but I have better things to do with my time than kill all the ants that come near me.
If I found an ant that was capable of helping me further my goals, yeah I'd enlist its aid. Heck, Daedalus did exactly that to run a string through a conch shell.
You're assuming that ignoring the mortal would fit better with his plans than enlisting the mortal. For all we know, Asmodeus could have been moving pieces to specifically enlist certain mortals for whatever reason, and only he'd know which mortals are important to his plan.
So serving somebody for their mutual benefit is "getting the better of somebody? Does that make employees con artists, fleecing their bosses?
He punishes it after death. That's why the Hells exist and he doesn't just roam the Material plane.
This is just to bullet points the lines lining up.
Ambition is about motive, not actions. Getting connections in Hell can be just as important if not more important than power itself. Infernal networking is a must for any upwardly mobile cultist.

[Vedhin]

Good thing you're not trying to get the better of him. That was my point, you make every effort to make him get the better of you for your benefit.



Well, If you're going to screw yourself over for him, it's a moot point about him screwing you over.

[Graypairofsocks]

And, pray tell, how would you set things up so that him screwing you over will always be worse than him not doing so?


See my post earlier in this current thread: Link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344968-DM-is-going-to-let-me-strike-a-deal-with-Asmodeus-need-ideas&p=17389167&viewfull=1#post17389167)

One of things here is that if you are alive you will get him more souls than if he just turns you into a lemure.

[Vedhin]

See my post earlier in this current thread: Link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344968-DM-is-going-to-let-me-strike-a-deal-with-Asmodeus-need-ideas&p=17389167&viewfull=1#post17389167)

One of things here is that if you are alive you will get him more souls than if he just turns you into a lemure.

And see the post below it:


The thing I like about this most is imagining the conversation between Asmodeus and his PR guy afterwards... "You've got them so scared of me they're just calling me up to give me their souls, and promising to be my agents in exchange for 'please don't kill me'. This is a lot better than when those wizards were gating me in to clean up orc lairs for them."

And then my post above the one you just made.

[Graypairofsocks]

And then my post above the one you just made.


Meh, I should have read it better.



Thinking about it the deal is really only "good" as is in some situations: You were already Lawful Evil and were going to end up in Baator anyways, You made another deal where you end up going to Baator(Overlaps with the previous), You want (to retain) power in the next life(?).

[Thiyr]

That may be, but point 2 in your response would nullify the argument in point 1. If mortals are so insignificant, why waste time hurting it? I hate ants, but I have better things to do with my time than kill all the ants that come near me.
If I found an ant that was capable of helping me further my goals, yeah I'd enlist its aid. Heck, Daedalus did exactly that to run a string through a conch shell.
You're assuming that ignoring the mortal would fit better with his plans than enlisting the mortal. For all we know, Asmodeus could have been moving pieces to specifically enlist certain mortals for whatever reason, and only he'd know which mortals are important to his plan.
So serving somebody for their mutual benefit is "getting the better of somebody? Does that make employees con artists, fleecing their bosses?
He punishes it after death. That's why the Hells exist and he doesn't just roam the Material plane.
This is just to bullet points the lines lining up.
Ambition is about motive, not actions. Getting connections in Hell can be just as important if not more important than power itself. Infernal networking is a must for any upwardly mobile cultist.



In addition to this finely crafted bullet point by Mal, regardless of the catharsis provided by the puppy-kicking, Asmodeus certainly understands the value of good PR, even for a lord of hell, and nobody likes a puppy kicker. Besides, there are plenty of ways to get catharsis that can better fit his image.
In addition, of course I'd take the ant up on its offer, especially if it led to more ants serving me. Then I could totally become Ant Man and beat things to a pulp with swarms of ants.
As an addendum, who's to say that the ritual wasn't guided to that precise location for the PC to find through eons of planning? "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world."
Besides, who said without penalty? It just a matter of avoiding immediate penalty. You're entering a pact with a devil, by its nature an evil act, and evil will cosmically punish you. He doesn't need to do anything at that point but wait.
See above point. Besides, if he encourages evil to punish it, why not encourage MORE evil so he can punish MORE of it so he can get MORE power-per-evil?
This entire list was made mostly as an excuse to continue this trend of bullet-points, inspired by what this one is a response/addendum to.
As I said in my original post, "That's not to say you need to be his mindless yesman. Bucking his authority in a way that benefits him is acceptable, but that's material more for the Advanced Agents of Asmodeus 401 class."


In all, its just treating this like any other job interview. Its not about what they can give you, but what you can give them. Your boss just happens to be a guy with more style, skill, and knowhow than everyone else combined.

(clearly I'm not on his payroll already. Pay no attention to the Lord of Hell behind the curtain.)

[Vedhin]

Besides, who said without penalty? It just a matter of avoiding immediate penalty. You're entering a pact with a devil, by its nature an evil act, and evil will cosmically punish you. He doesn't need to do anything at that point but wait.


So you admit that simply making a deal with him screws you over?

[Sith_Happens]

So you admit that simply making a deal with him screws you over?

Not necessarily in an important way, at least.

[Alex12]

The number of people who can reliably and safely make pacts/deals/what-have-you withevil extraplanar entities is, IMHO, quite low. It's pretty much screw and counter-screw, except that one side has way more experience and power than the other.
Powerful spellcasters can compel some such beings into servitude, but in that sort of situation, it's because they're reversing the usual power dynamics. They've generally got more power than the things they're compelling- Mageguy McWizard can cast Planar Binding, but he's strong enough that he could plausibly handle whatever he calls up, plus he's smart enough to work out a mutually-acceptable deal.
Tainted Scholars get this sort of ability as a class feature at 9th level- a once-daily ability to make an evil deal for a Limited Wish, in exchange for getting a Geas/Quest placed on them (This works really well if they're immune to mind-affecting stuff). The thing is, that sort of thing is the Tainted Scholar's area of specialization. They're supposed to be able to do it better than anyone else.

[Cikomyr]

I usually prefer my players to hang themselves with the rope i give them, when i want to screw them over/seduce them to the Dark Side.

They are usually damn skilled at thinking themselves in control, you just need a little push and encouragement to have them do stupid and damnable actions.

[atemu1234]

If my PCs did this, I'd go out of my way to screw them over for it. First of all, you're going about this all wrong. For one, you shouldn't be going to any devil offering them your soul. You're instantly putting yourself on the defensive, deal-wise, so it's likely you won't get a good offer. If your DM offers a chance to sell your soul to you, however, I can see allowing it.

Secondly, if Asmodeus wants you to do something for power, odds are it has some strings attached. If you have to kill all these clerics and a king, odds are they'd be far more powerful than you, just to get on his radar. You'd have gone to him for nothing.

Thirdly, by offering your soul, without a major roleplaying breakthrough, your character is now lawful evil, and cannot be redeemed, going by the logic put forth by dante, " there can be no penance prior to the commitment of a sin". For absolution you must feel sorry, and you won't feel sorry for it if you yourself put it out there.

Fourthly, I'll expand on two. If they are as powerful as you, they aren't powerful enough to be on his radar, which means he wouldn't have done this deal. Odds are he expects you to die. He gave you an impossible yet seemingly possible task that will kill you, giving you a one-way ticket to the nine, and you fell for it like a rookie. Deals made with Asmodeus never end well.

We're talking the patron saint (while, demon lord) of lawyers here. Any deal made with him will get you killed. Just accept that and move on. If you like making deals with devils and demons, become a mountebank. It's core concept is to be too useful to demons for them to kill you. Once your PC dies (as this deal will no doubt culminate in) run this past your DM.

[NichG]

'The deal will get you killed' is actually more what I'd expect from a lower functionary, someone who has yet to grasp the finer points of manipulation. No, the real infernal bargain is something where you get everything you ask for and regret every bit of it for its own sake. Its easy to go and screw someone over and have them hate you for it, but the real art is in being the vehicle by which they screw themselves over and hate themselves for it - if you're really good, then they'll even absolve you of your part in it at the end and put the blame wholly on themselves when really you orchestrated the entire thing.

A PC wishes for an Erinyes henchman... okay, fine, the payment is that the PC must undertake a pilgrimage to a particular ritual site to re-summon the Erinyes each year. No lien on their soul or anything - aside from the whole infernal contract thing, they're welcome to end up in Celestia or wherever.

Of course the Erinyes is an Erinyes - obeys dutifully, but always mentioned little details to create paranoia and suspicion. "Do you think the king is really telling the truth about this mission, or are you just expendable mercenaries to him?". And this is not just random - the Erinyes is always spot on on her analysis, and establishes herself as a wise advisor. Then after awhile, the advice starts to be personal. "Did you notice that your friends stopped talking when you entered the room? I wonder what they're hiding from you. Maybe they want to throw you a surprise party?"

Then comes the one push. The Erinyes exaggerates something real but innocent, lets that paranoia grow, and it destroys one of the PC's relationships, ruins a friendship, maybe even gets a favorite NPC killed (unlikely to get another PC killed). Maybe its even something like the Erinyes allowing herself to be detected by a cleric and setting up a conflict between the PC and the forces of righteousness, with the usual PC pride of 'I'm doing this to save the world!' smacking full-force into doctrinaire Lawful Good Paladins.

If the Erinyes has done her job right, she doesn't even need to lie or push directly - all she needs to do is encourage a mindset that fosters paranoia, suspicion, ambition, etc in her master, and then let that lead to its natural consequences.

In the end, Asmodeus has managed to have an Erinyes servant walking the Prime for years, doing his bidding during the entirety of the time she's not directly working for her mortal master. So that's fine as far as his payout. At the same time, she's also creating a person of significant power and influence who has a personality that means they're likely to strike out with random acts of cruelty and self-destruct spectacularly. Death is too easy.

[Lord Vukodlak]

My advice is one word
Don't

[Cikomyr]

The rules governing making a deal with Asmodeus are the sames as the laws of Thermodynamics:


1. You can't win.
2. You can't break even.
3. You can't get out of the game.

Physics (and Asmodeus) is a bastard sometimes. (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/431.html)

[Clistenes]

The OP reminds me a film I watched years ago: Three guys (a rogue priest, a heavy metal musician and a paranormal "expert") think that Doomsday is close to happening. They summon Satan to ask him. Once they have completed the ritual from within their summoning circle they wait for a sign, and then one of them notices that a big roach is walking around them, following the circle's border without entering it, and they are all "hey it's Satan, he's here! he has take the shape of a roach!".

While they are speaking all excited, they hear a clopping sound, raise their heads, and watch a donkey-sized jet-black billygoat standing in front of them. The billygoat walks towards them, and once it's next to the circle, it gets on its hind legs, standing like a human, waiting for them to say something.

The three guys stay there, silent, not knowing what to do or say, and Satan stays there, waiting. Then the priest decides to do something and steps out of the circle, and stares to Satan's eyes, but he still doesn't know what to say.

Satan grunts, and dissappears. The notes about the summoning ritual burn.

Later, they are discussing what have just happened. The musician, who has taken some drugs to ease the stress laughs, and shows the other the burn paper; the unburnt words form a phrase: "this is not a game".

[Red Fel]

The rules governing making a deal with Asmodeus are the sames as the laws of Thermodynamics:


1. You can't win.
2. You can't break even.
3. You can't get out of the game.

Physics (and Asmodeus) is a bastard sometimes. (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/431.html)

You're quite a Wiz at these straw-man arguments, aren't you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s8i60gdx7o)?