Coup de Grace: the insta-win?

[Oryan77]

Is a Coup de Grace pretty much the "insta-win" tactic even for a low level PC vs a high level NPC?

I understand how it works and I understand well what it means to be "helpless". What I don't understand is how easy it seems to be to kill any high level enemy that may have a boat load of hitpoints when a "Fort save vs 10+ damage dealt" means he dies if he fails it.

It's really pretty easy for a group to get a low level fighter or rogue to sneak up on a sleeping character. It's also not that hard to buff them up enough to do a reasonable about of damage that would require the high level NPC to need a natural 20 on his Fort save to succeed.

For example, a 4th level fighter using a Greataxe with a couple of buffs to enhance damage could easily do a mere 25 damage on a coup de grace. That would require a level 13 creature with 200 hitpoints and an 18 Fort save to make a DC 35 Fort save or die in one hit. Even with DR, it still has a very good chance of dying. The fighter also has a very good chance of doing 28 damage which means a natural 20 is required on the Fort save.

I know there could be plenty of circumstances for a CR 13 creature to avoid being snuck up on while sleeping. I'm just looking at this at face value and wondering if I'm missing something here. I'm also thinking of this from the other side. If a PC was level 13, and a level 4 NPC was buffed up and snuck up on the PC while he's sleeping in camp, that's an instant kill and seems cheesy/unlikely.

[pwykersotz]

Keep in mind that the system is designed so that if you take over 50hp of damage you also have to make a Fort Save or die. Not many DM's run with that rule, but one shot kills are expected.

[HighWater]

I omit the fortitude save and exchange it for the promise not to have NPCs do the same to PCs.

[Anxe]

Are you saying a 4th level fighter shouldn't be able to cut the head off of a sleeping target? It makes sense to me. I think I could do that in my real life too (not that I sneak around town with a greataxe).

My players have used this tactic as well. I don't have a problem with it. If a character plans right, then the plan should succeed.

Do you want to change the rule? Just an automatic critical seems like it'd work okay if you don't want instant death.

[Fouredged Sword]

I wasn't aware that people slept after 10th level, or if they do, they do so in unassailable places like a rope trick or other such effect. Getting to a mid level character as they sleep is HARD. A first level spell (alarm) makes it difficult, and a 2nd level spell (rope trick) makes it nearly impossible. Most adventurers only sleep 2 hours a day after 5th level or so (ring of sustenance), so they have 1 person sleep every 2 hours so there are at least 2-3 people awake at any time.

Getting someone helpless is HARD. It is an encounter in of itself.

But, yes, if you are standing over a sleeping level 20 fighter, and you happen to have a scythe, he is likely dead.

[OverdrivePrime]

So, what's the real problem you're facing with CdG? Is it the sleep + axe + throat = dead BBEG part, or that the BBEG is vulnerable when sleeping or otherwise indisposed?

A 1st level character should be able to kill a 20th level character if for some reason the 20th level character is helpless. However, as creatures gain in power, they are increasingly less likely to be in situations where they're helpless. To make it to 20th level, a BBEG would almost definitely have learned self-preservation through healthy paranoia. If a high power character lets himself get killed in his sleep, it's almost definitely because he's faking his death.

Remember that sleeping only imposes a +10 to one's perception modifier. So if some 4th level jamoke ranger (+12 to sneak) is trying to sneak up on a sleeping 10th level cleric (+16 to perception, -10 for sleeping), the cleric has a dangerously high chance of hearing the ranger and waking up.

And that's only if you have an extremely trusting/foolhardy/vulnerable NPC who's decided to:
sleep alone
without any guards
without an alarm spell
without any wards
without any traps
without contingencies
in a place the PCs expected to find him


That probably shouldn't happen with high level, sentient antagonists.

Monster NPCs have even more options, such as blindsight, tremorsense or hard-to-find resting places.

[Sartharina]

If you're helpless against an enemy, you're dead. Likewise, if your enemy is helpless against you, he's dead. That's a feature, not a flaw. I think every other edition has a flat "If your enemy is helpless, a standard action will knock him out or kill him - your choice", bypassing fortitude saves and HP entirely. THe ridiculous thing is that it requires a greataxe to kill a sleeping, helpless humanoid foe.

[Seerow]

I actually like CdG rules for exactly the reasons the OP mentions. I like that if you have someone at your mercy with no allies around to support/protect them (CdG provokes an AoO), just about anyone* can succeed in killing even a high level threat. The trick for a high level character is to not be put in a position where they are threatened in such a way.

*Okay so you can have things like a commoner with a dagger dealing 5 average damage even with a guaranteed crit, provoking a DC15 fort save most high level characters can pass with ease. But hey, when that person gets up after the commoner just tried to slit their throat, that shows how much of a badass they are.

[Raimun]

Coup de Grace is not "an insta-win".

The cause that led to the Coup de Grace to be possible in the first place is "an insta-win".

If a creature is in a situation where it can be Coup de Graced, it has pretty much already lost.

[Aliek]

A good point on the 'sentient antagonist' part, however I'd adjust that mostly to sapient.

How would one go about not having his monster of legend/titanic creature being CdG while sleeping?

[Deophaun]

How would one go about not having his monster of legend/titanic creature being CdG while sleeping?
Natural alarms in the lair would be a start, like bat swarms or loose rocks.

[TuggyNE]

At mid-high levels, a character without fortification on their armor is kind of throwing the match. And there is no easy way for a 4th-level character to get past a Barbarian 20's heavy fortification armor (worn with that one armor crystal).


How would one go about not having his monster of legend/titanic creature being CdG while sleeping?

Have them not sleep, or possess an immense Fort save, or have special senses a la Smaug to wake up in time, or be immune to crits. AT least one of these is naturally present in some degree or other with the majority of higher-level monsters.

[tyckspoon]

How would one go about not having his monster of legend/titanic creature being CdG while sleeping?

Most creatures of that type have one or more special senses (Blindsense/sight, Tremorsense, just straight up Scent) as well as ludicrous Spot and/or Listen scores because of their gigantic number of HD and lack of anything else sensible to spend their skillpoints on. They're actually quite hard to sneak up on, and armed humanoids should be unusual enough to catch their attention even while they're asleep (incidentally, if you need to justify *that*, animals and animalistic monsters also often have interestingly high Wisdom scores.) You can get around those things, but to do so you're changing the scenario from 'woodsman wanders up and makes a trophy of the monster with his lumber axe' to 'We put together a hunting expedition specifically to overcome this creature', which seems alright to me.

[Grayson01]

I have to agree the CdG rules make plenty of sense. Slitting someones throat, chopping it off with an Axe, Putting a sword threw their spine. ETC ETC ETC makes sense. A rouge (or any Class) who specializes in sneaking up and Killing people swiftly and silently in one blow should have the option of acctually doing it at any level.

[ericgrau]

1. Listen check at a -10 penalty to wake up. A high level character can make it.

2. By level 13 you should have learned to keep watch every single night for the last 11 levels.

3. Bad luck kills D&D characters all the time, even purely from lucky rolls. That's why it has so much resurrection available. Keeping someone dead is a bit harder than merely killing him.

4. 2&3 is why you always have allies. Solo just plain isn't good for anyone in D&D. You simply can't make it very far regardless of circumstances before it's 1 bad roll and you lose. Allies prevent easy coup de graces too.

So its not so much coup de graces, rather 10,000 things in D&D that insta-win. Precautions and a party prevent them from happening easily from things weaker than you.

[Slipperychicken]

By the time someone can perform a CDG, the fight is basically over anyway. If your 4th level PCs can sneak up on the BBEG in his sleep, cast their buffs with no-one noticing, and bury an axe in his neck without him waking up, that BBEG has rightly earned his fate.

If we didn't have CDGs, I'd bet money that we would have monthly threads arguing about how easy it is to decapitate a sleeping person, and constant quips about how a commoner slitting someone's neck open only does 2 damage.

[Curmudgeon]

At mid-high levels, a character without fortification on their armor is kind of throwing the match.
Why would you want Fortification on your armor when you can have Fortification on your person instead? A Gemstone of Fortification can get implanted in you for the cost of an NPC spellcaster using Limited Wish for the "surgery". This option is both more secure and more cost-effective. Plus, you don't have to be confined to stinky armor all the time. :smallbiggrin:

[Erik Vale]

Stinky? I refute that on the grounds that prestdigitation is a level 1 spell... That and in DnD you can get some damn comfortable armors.

[Curmudgeon]

Even when made of mithral, full plate armor weighs 25 lbs. I know if I'm just walking along with a 25 lb. pack I'm sweating vigorously. Maybe if you had someone to come in and hit you every hour with Prestidigitation while you slept you'd be OK, but otherwise you're going to wake up smelling funky every morning. :smallannoyed:

[hymer]

@ Curmudgeon: Well, unless you're sleepwalking, you shouldn't be sweating more of nights because of extra weight. Anyway, contrary to popular belief, sweat doesn't smell bad. It's the bacteria that thrive in it that smell. If you prestidigitate twice a day, you really should not smell.
Otherwise, just play an elf. Never a bad hair day, arse as clean as a hotel room, the works.

[Slipperychicken]

Even when made of mithral, full plate armor weighs 25 lbs. I know if I'm just walking along with a 25 lb. pack I'm sweating vigorously. Maybe if you had someone to come in and hit you every hour with Prestidigitation while you slept you'd be OK, but otherwise you're going to wake up smelling funky every morning. :smallannoyed:


@ Curmudgeon: Well, unless you're sleepwalking, you shouldn't be sweating more of nights because of extra weight. Anyway, contrary to popular belief, sweat doesn't smell bad. It's the bacteria that thrive in it that smell. If you prestidigitate twice a day, you really should not smell.
Otherwise, just play an elf. Never a bad hair day, arse as clean as a hotel room, the works.

Doesn't Prestidigitation only clean nonliving matter?

[hymer]

Doesn't Prestidigitation only clean nonliving matter?

I'm sure you're right. I was mostly trying to be amusing. Still, clean clothes and armour is well over half the battle, I should think. You're not helpless whilst tubbing.

Edit: I'm still mostly trying to be amusing. Unless the adventurers go straight to the king's court from the dungeon, my group and I don't usually interest ourselves with how they manage to offend, or the level of BO they can produce.

[Deadline]

Is a Coup de Grace pretty much the "insta-win" tactic even for a low level PC vs a high level NPC?

No, because getting access to a helpless target (of appropriate or higher CR) is ridiculously hard to do.

[John Longarrow]

Oryan77,

While I wouldn't say CdG is too good, it may be that in your game getting to a point where you can do so has been made too easy.

For myself, in real life someone would need to get into my apartment building (not too hard) through my dead bolted front door (hard to do quietly), and into my bedroom without waking me up. Unless they know which room is mine and can see in the dark (not too hard in D&D) they will run into problems getting to me without revealing themselves. That also assumes my GF doesn't get woken up while they try.

For a 13th level character, even without guards or heavy magic you will be looking at getting past levels of mundane security and an unknown floor plan to get to the target.

For animals, you have to find their lair (if they have one) then get in without the animal (or animals in most cases) noticing. One mess up and everyone wakes up....

As others have noted, CdG after rendering something helpless (ray of stupidity to the Hydra any one?) isn't that much of a game changer. Just speeds up combat a couple rounds.

[Slipperychicken]

Edit: I'm still mostly trying to be amusing. Unless the adventurers go straight to the king's court from the dungeon, my group and I don't usually interest ourselves with how they manage to offend, or the level of BO they can produce.

This is another reason I like ACKS. The system assumes that the PCs take a few minutes after each dungeon encounter to clean blood off their armor, recover arrows, and do other routine tasks like looting bodies and searching for hidden traps and doors.