The Fighter Archetype: Game of Thrones Fighters

[Cybris75]

After reading some discussions about the fighter class I started to wonder: what exactly should the fighter class do? Which roles does it fill? What kind of characters would you like to be modelled with the fighter class, and what are the limitations of what you can achieve with it?

I've been watching Game of Thrones, and there are a lot of characters who, in theory, should be fighters. Very different kind of fighters. So I thought: can the fighter class do all that in a reasonable amount of levels (10 or less)? So, I present to you this build challenge: build a character from GoT, using at least two levels of the fighter class. Model the capabilities of the character, and if there are no rules for what these characters can do, tell us about that and say what D&D lacks in that regard.

I challenge you to make a viable D&D aproximation of one the following characters:

Ser Jamie Lannister, the Kingslayer
Ser Gregor Clegane, the Mountain
Ser Loras Tyrell
Bronn the Sellsword
Sandor Clegane, the Hound
Brienne of Tarth

If you want to do someone else, like Ser Barristan, Daario, or even Jaqen H'Ghar instead, please go ahead. And you should specify if there are differences between the book and TV versions and which you chose to build.

[OldTrees1]

I have not watched Game of Thrones. However I would bet that a solid starting place is Human Fighter[Thug] with some being Human Fighter[Thug, Zhentarim Soldier].

Some might have the Education feat for more Knowledge skills or the Noble Born feat for Diplomacy and Knowledge(nobility/royalty).

[Seerow]

I have not watched Game of Thrones. However I would bet that a solid starting place is Human Fighter[Thug] with some being Human Fighter[Thug, Zhentarim Soldier].

I'm pretty sure they all use heavy armor, so no Thug. Several could easily have Zhentarim though. I could see Gregor as a Zhentarim multiclassed into Warhulk, for example.

Most of them though are probably better off as Warblades, especially Jaime, Bron, and Sandor.

[OldTrees1]

I'm pretty sure they all use heavy armor, so no Thug. Several could easily have Zhentarim though. I could see Gregor as a Zhentarim multiclassed into Warhulk, for example.

Most of them though are probably better off as Warblades, especially Jaime, Bron, and Sandor.

Probably still thug. Heavy Armor Proficiency is 1 feat. +2 skill points per level is probably valuable for this exercise even at the cost of 2 feats.

[Seerow]

Probably still thug. Heavy Armor Proficiency is 1 feat, +2 skill points per level is probably more valuable.

2 feats actually (need to take Medium proficiency to qualify for heavy), and 3 when you account for the feat from being a Thug in the first place. Given you're looking at characters who on the outside MIGHT be as high as 6-8 (which in retrospect makes my warhulk multiclass note silly), basically giving up 3 feats (read: Your first 4 levels of fighter features) to gain 4 skill points per level seems unwise. At that point you really may as well be a Rogue/Fighter multiclass or something dumb like that. No, nobody who is using heavy armor is a single classed Thug Fighter. It's just a dumb idea.

[ArqArturo]

The mountaint definitely uses the Power Attack feat tree (albeit not the most optimized way) and monkey grip.

The hound is more or less a fighter/rogue mix, and quite possible also use the Power Attack tree, albeit he uses it right (two-handed weapons).

Jaime, him being a knight, I'm sure the cavalry feats, plus some combat expertise shenanigans might be there.

Bronn is definitely a thug (light armor, goes with knives when swords are awkward, etc).

[OldTrees1]

2 feats actually (need to take Medium proficiency to qualify for heavy), and 3 when you account for the feat from being a Thug in the first place. Given you're looking at characters who on the outside MIGHT be as high as 6-8 (which in retrospect makes my warhulk multiclass note silly), basically giving up 3 feats (read: Your first 4 levels of fighter features) to gain 4 skill points per level seems unwise. At that point you really may as well be a Rogue/Fighter multiclass or something dumb like that. No, nobody who is using heavy armor is a single classed Thug Fighter. It's just a dumb idea.

Good point. At those low levels would the Open Minded feat be useful?


Edit:
Zhentarim Soldier gives 1-3 levels of Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills. Some of the non Thugs might also consider the City Slicker feat for Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, and Knowledge (local).

[Seerow]

Good point. At those low levels would the Open Minded feat be useful?

Possibly, but not really. I've been playing E6 for a while now, and have gotten a couple sets of characters up to ~10 feats (that is 10 bonus feats plus what you get by level 6), and have yet to see any character actually pick up Open Minded yet, despite constant complaints about lack of skill points and how dumb the E6 feat that increases your skill rank cap is when you have to spend another feat to take advantage of the raised cap. It's one of those things that looks enticing, but when you actually weigh the costs and benefits there's so often going to be something much better.

[OverdrivePrime]

Many of those characters usually wear medium armor (breastplate (http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Graphics/Gallery/GameOfThrones_Jaime_01.png)) rather than full plate. Jaime Lannister is a warblade if I've ever seen one.

The Mountain is definitely a heavy-armor fighter, but even he doesn't seem to wear full plate. The show portrays armors of varying types, but in the books, I'm not sure that Westeros armor technology has made it to the point of full plate. Half-plate and field plate seem pretty common.

[Zanos]

The Mountain probably couldn't be modeled as a human. In the books I recall him being close to eight feet tall and weighing over 400 pounds, so it's highly probable he has some form of gigantism that would be best modeled by either being a goliath or having powerful build in some other fashion. Multiclass Barbarian/Fighter also seems about right for him. Nobody ever describes the mountain as being a skilled warrior, he just throws his massive strength around and nobody can really stand up to him. Throwing in Zhentarim Soldier for his fighter levels is appropriate, since intimidation through extreme displays of cruelty is his entire MO. He doesn't really need it though, as most of his underlings do the actual torturing for him. The problem I run into here is that he one-hands a six foot long greatsword. I decided that a large bastard sword would be a good approximation. Can't find anything that stacks with monkey grip without getting weird.

Levels: Goliath 1/Zhentarim Soldier 5+/Barbarian 1
32PB: STR 20 DEX 12 CON 18 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 10
Gregors Strength and Constitution are the stuff of legends. While he is kind of dumb muscle, nobody actually refers to him as having any sort of mental impairment. It's possible his mentals are lower, but I can't recall him actually being described as an idiot. Charisma is 10 because while he's not charming, people are afraid of him. Zhentarim Soldier is at 5 because Gregor definitely has a lasting effect on people, but I can't really justify having a character above level 6 in the ASoIaF universe.
Feats: Extra Rage, [Open], [Open]
Fighter: Power Attack, EWP(Bastard Sword), Mounted Combat
B:Skill Focus(Intimidate)
Skills: Ride +10, Intimidate + 12
Gear: Steel Heavy Shield, Large Bastard Sword, Full Plate

Can't really think of anything else to give him. Improved Grapple maybe, for that one time he did that thing to that person?

[ddude987]

Possibly, but not really. I've been playing E6 for a while now, and have gotten a couple sets of characters up to ~10 feats (that is 10 bonus feats plus what you get by level 6), and have yet to see any character actually pick up Open Minded yet, despite constant complaints about lack of skill points and how dumb the E6 feat that increases your skill rank cap is when you have to spend another feat to take advantage of the raised cap. It's one of those things that looks enticing, but when you actually weigh the costs and benefits there's so often going to be something much better.

On the contrary, in the group I'm in, we are playing e10 (level 8 is soft cap, with 9 and 10 being epic levels). Our DM increased every classes base skill allotment by 1.5 and allowed enhancement bonuses to int to give skill points (retroactively too) and yet many people in the group have taken open minded multiple times. That said, we also are level 10 with 25 feats before bonus feats from human, classes, and the like.

Assuming e6

Ser Jamie Lannister, the Kingslayer - warblade 5 (6? not sure if anyone is actually level 6)
Ser Gregor Clegane, the Mountain - fighter//barbarian
Bronn the Sellsword - fighter (thug)
Sandor Clegane, the Hound - figher (SA varient) (can you do zitraham too?)

[Averis Vol]

Okay, lets see nao......

The kingslayer: prodigy (dex) human fighter 2/ swashbuckler 3. Because of the way real swordsmanship works, most weapons should be considered finessable, if not he took companion guard style. A rather simple two handed fighter (using a longsword) who uses his combat instincts very well. He's a bit rakish and has a tendency to wear minimal armor.

The mountain: he is also a knight, but that class really doesn't fit. I would say half ogre fighter 2/ barbarian 1. He is a giant of a man with the social graces of a fish. He is incredibly strongbut prone to easy fits of anger, going so far as to remove the head of his horse because sir loras poisoned it and it gave out on him (one clean swing of his greatsword by the by).
But I can't see him being terribly high level, because Oberyn's poison tears him up on the inside, which leads me to believe that while he may have a decent fort save, it can't be too high.

Ser Loras Tyrell: Fighter 2. He's an okay fighter, definitely better then your common soldier, but he lacks the prodigious combat skill of jamie, the strength of the mountain, or the cunning of bronn.

Bronn: Human sneak attack fighter 3. Fairly cut and dry, bronn is an underhanded fighter that would rather let his opponent wear himself out before striking, or strike when he knows the person couldn't properly defend himself. He's smart and cunning, but not particularly strong or or stable.

The hound: Human fighter 4. While not as strong as Gregor, Sandor clegane is probably a better swordsman. He's cruel and has incredibly battle focus, as well as a position to do basically whatever he wants. Like most people, he's a fairly typical two handed fighter because thats the style of the era.

Brienna of Tarth: Human knight 3. Brienna is probably the only person on the list who actually exemplifies the qualities of a knight. She's kind of an ogre, but that lends the advantage to her in combat. She's good enough to stand toe to toe with an injured and handcuffed jamie.

[Vogonjeltz]

Bronn sketch: quick draw, dodge, combat expertise, improved disarm, combat reflexes, improved feint, probably weapon focus in dagger.

[Thealtruistorc]

Bronn sketch: quick draw, dodge, combat expertise, improved disarm, combat reflexes, improved feint, probably weapon focus in dagger.

As a fan of the books, I recall him using a bastard sword or similarly large weapon when he fought for Tyrion in the Vale. Other than that, I would say the build is fairly accurate, as Bronn relies on manuverability and endurance to incapacitate his foes before closing in and delivering the final blow.

Gregor Clegane is not likely entirely human (Hodor apparently has giant ancestry, so why not Gregor). As such, I would make his basis either half-giant or goliath packing a greatsword. His feats should include power attack and the cleave line. War Hulk would be an obvious choice if permitted.

Brienne of Tarth (that is how you spell it) is a knight, but has a few tricks up her sleeve. Give her a couple feats devoted to moving in armor and using combat maneuvers and that could work out.

[Alikat]

What alignment do you think Bronn the sellsword would be?

My guess would be chaotic neutral or neutral evil.

[Troacctid]

True Neutral, of course.

[khachaturian]

so is syrio forel a straight-up swashbuckler?

[Seerow]

so is syrio forel a straight-up swashbuckler?

He's a guy who managed to get the class features of a 6th level Swashbuckler, Duelist, and Fighter all by level 5.


Which is to say, he's using a awful fighting style, but breaks the rules via sheer awesomeness just enough to make it work anyway.

[Azoth]

I can see The Mountain having the feat Jotunbrud. Would explain his large size fairly easily and gets him treated as large when it is beneficial to him for combat maneuvers and intimidate.

While I despise Monkey Grip if you couple it with Jotunbrud it is basically Powerful Build with a -2 to attack.

I wonder how we would build Khal Drogo or Dario Nahara.

[Sayt]

Khal Drogo is probably a Barbarian with an ACF or PF archetype which gives him a horse animal companion.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Khal Drogo is probably a Barbarian with an ACF or PF archetype which gives him a horse animal companion.

Wild Cohort perhaps?

[ddude987]

He's a guy who managed to get the class features of a 6th level Swashbuckler, Duelist, and Fighter all by level 5.


Which is to say, he's using a awful fighting style, but breaks the rules via sheer awesomeness just enough to make it work anyway.

So he is a tristalt. I would say he has martial maneuvers tacked on there on top of all that.

[Dienekes]

So he is a tristalt. I would say he has martial maneuvers tacked on there on top of all that.

Honestly, I would model a bunch of these warriors as at least a gestalt of a couple things just to get the required proficiencies, skill points, and martial maneuvers so that they can actually do things that they were shown to do in the books.

Anyway, I'm going off the books. In them, most of these guys definitely were heavy armor, though they don't walk around in their armor all day every day like the characters seem to do in the show. For the tournament they were shown to have quite elaborate plate.

Anyway:
To everyone who took part in the semi-finals of the tournament; Jaime Lannister, The Hound, Ser Loras, Gregor Clegane. I would give them Heavy Armor Proficiency, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, and Spirited Charge

Jaime Lannister: Generally wielded a bastard sword with or without a shield. So Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword, Improved Shield Bash. Sadly, we don't really get to see him fight at his peak. He was beaten by Sandor at the joust, he doesn't participate too much with his attack on Eddard's guard, and then gets captured offscreen. The best we get to see from him is his fight with Brienne. Though they don't portray it as such in the show, according to Brienne if it wasn't for the fact that he was shackled and forced to be in a cage for a year he would have killed her, he was that good. And he almost did, until Brienne got in grapple range and well, she's bigger and stronger than he is. So handwave an effective build for him.

Sandor Clegane: Probably the only character of equal level to Jaime (at least of the Westeros crew, Khal Drogo, Grey Worm, Syrio Forel, and Strong Belwas may give him a run for his money).
He has a similar build to Jaime. He also wields a bastard sword in one hand or both, depending on the situation. So Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword, and Improved Shield Bash.
His battle with Gregor clearly shows he is great at defense: Combat Expertise and/or Steel Wind. Clegane also hunts a few times, and apparently tracked down Arya's friend from the first book. So he gets the Track feat. His rescue of Sansa from the mob of nearly a hundred in the books (they bring it down to 4 in the show), has him definitely using some Power Attack and Cleave (maybe Great Cleave, he cuts a lot of suckers down).

Gregor Clegane: A raping pillaging lunatic. Prone to go into psychotic rages were he will strike whatever's in front of him, including people who have nothing to do with the fight. Implied to kill his mother and father in one of his rages. If there's a guy in Game of Thrones who has a level in Frenzied Berserker it's this guy. So that gives him the feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage I'd also give him Improved Sunder. He also carries a great sword in one hand. Honestly I'm not up on all that Monkey Grip type shenanigans, so you guys figure out how that works. He is also very, very good at grappling. He has, at minimum: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and I would argue for Earth's Embrace. Amusingly, despite the pretty high list of feats I'd give him, I'd rank him as lower leveled than Jaime and Sandor who definitely have more skill than he does, while he relies on his ridiculously high strength to keep up, and he still can't aim.

Loras Tyrell: A younger, lower leveled version of Jaime Lannister. That's really all we can say about him. Probably has Weapon Focus (Lance), as that was his specialty. His brother Garlan though, who was dropped for the show, is quite a fighter, who definitely has some Cleave on him, battling 3 guys in duels at once. Pity he was dropped, always liked Garlan.

Bronn: Now in the books it was basically acknowledged that though Bronn was awesome, he didn't have the training as any of the above actual knights. He could beat the grey haired Vardis, but against such opponents he relied on quick thinking and cheating. He cheated a lot. In the show it seems like they're building him up to be on the same level as guys like Clegane. Requires: Two-weapon fighting. He definitely has some sneak attack thrown in. Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, and Improvised Weapon Proficiency. He can probably get away with wearing only medium armor. The heaviest we see him in is chainmail. Though I think he wears plate for at least one occasion latter on with a joust type scenario so maybe give him the standard knight array? Maybe not Spirited Charge.

Brienne: Lower level than Jaime, higher than Loras. She's a heavily armored grappler, which is how she beats Jaime and Loras. Improved Unarmed Strike, and Improved Grappling. I wouldn't give her Earth's Embrace, she is not as good as Gregor. Other than that, I think she's another bastard sword with sometimes shield fighter. For some reason, I see her as fighting more defensively, but I can't really think of anything from the books to suggest this.

Syrio Forel: This guy, is pretty crazy. Good enough to take down 5 medium armored guards with a practice sword, and hold off a fully armored knight with a broken practice sword, at least for a time. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of feat support for einhander. He probably has the Einhander feat. Other than that, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Feint, Combat Reflexes. Probably, Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target as well. I'd probably give him some variant of Warblade that uses Wisdom instead of Intelligence, has perception skills, and only light armor.

[Gnome Alone]

Aw, they dropped Garlan the Gallant from the show? I already thought that guy was cool, and then when he was the one who actually called Joffrey out for destroying Tyrion's incredibly rare book gift, I flipped out and added him to the... oh, 4 or 5 ASOIAF characters that might actually merit a Good alignment. It's too bad they dropped him just for that reason. I haven't seen anything past the 2nd season so I dunno if they had someone else give Joffrey crap about it, but maaaaaaaan...

[Zombulian]

I've actually already built Bronn a few times. Generally it would go Fighter 2/Scout (riposte variant)/Rogue X with Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit plus Swift Ambusher. Or Fighter 2/Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw.

[The Insaniac]

I'd probably give him some variant of Warblade that uses Wisdom instead of Intelligence, has perception skills, and only light armor.

Like swordsage? That's what I'd stat Syrio at. A few levels of swordsage (probably with a non-magical version of desert wind) with either a warblade dip or martial study for a few iron heart maneuvers.

For the mountain, I'd say half-ogre frenzied berzerker.

[Dienekes]

Like swordsage? That's what I'd stat Syrio at. A few levels of swordsage (probably with a non-magical version of desert wind) with either a warblade dip or martial study for a few iron heart maneuvers.

For the mountain, I'd say half-ogre frenzied berzerker.

Yes... the Swordsage is indeed a class that fits that description. This is why I shouldn't type posts at 3 in the morning when I am supposed to be finishing my report for work. Though, honestly I would just give him Iron Heart in exchange for Desert Wind with the caveat he can't use too supernatural abilities from Shadow Hand as well.

[Averis Vol]

As a fan of the books, I recall him using a bastard sword or similarly large weapon when he fought for Tyrion in the Vale. Other than that, I would say the build is fairly accurate, as Bronn relies on manuverability and endurance to incapacitate his foes before closing in and delivering the final blow.

The way I remember it described screamed arming sword to me. So a basic one handed sword that left his off hand open for some other use, namely a khukri or for grappling.