Bard vs Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer (Enchantment focused)

[Cicciograna]

I was rereading this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) strip, and thought, which build would be better, level-by-level, straight Bard or the multiclass combo picked by Nale? We have on one side an overall good Tier 3 class against a combo featuring the weakest of the PC classes, a good skillmonkey (potentially Tier 3-ish with good optimization) and a Tier 2, albeit focusing on one of the weakest schools.
Let's say that we begin our comparation at level 3, when the multiclasser got his 3rd class.

Ready? GO!

[Jeff the Green]

Bard. It gets more skill points in toto and never has to spend them cross class. Its spells are set at the levels they are so they're useful when you get them, unlike a multiclassing sorcerer. Its class features synergize and there are feats that build off them. It doesn't get wasted proficiencies. It has ACFs that greatly boost the various roles it can play.

Now, a Sorcerer/Rogue or a Sorcerer/Fighter can work and probably be better than Bard with the appropriate PrCs (Unseen Seer, Abjurant Champion, etc.). But combining all three makes it too scattered to work well.

[HammeredWharf]

Depends on how many levels of Sorc the multiclasser takes and what the Bard's options are like. If the multiclasser is F1/R1/S18, he's better than a Bard 20. Of course, the bard could be a Sublime Chord and beat the Sorc at his own game. In a low-level game, the Bard could be more useful and is definitely more versatile due to having good skills when they still matter and optimized Inspire Courage / DFI.

However, I think the comparison fails when you think about it, because the combos are too different. A Bard is good because of his skills and music. The multiclasser is strictly worse when it comes to skills and doesn't get music at all.

[eggynack]

If you relax the enchantment focus assumption, then it seems possible that the win goes to the sorcerer, at least at this one moment. A first level sorcerer's casting is just better than that of a third level bard in most ways that matter. I'm not sure if that factor alone is enough to cause sorcerer superiority, but it goes a long way. Still, within a single level, even that advantage vanishes, as the bard gets second level casting.

Now, if you don't relax the enchantment focus at all, that might be enough on its own to grant bards caster superiority as well. I mean, the sorcerer's running something like charm person+sleep, and the bard can pull silent image+grease+maybe also charm person, and that might put the bard ahead, especially when you factor all of the bard's cool bard stuff into the equation. At later levels, the power of the multiclass is pretty heavily dependent on how much of a sorcerer this fellow is, with an even split causing bardic advantage, and taking nothing but sorcerer from then on causing sorcerer advantage.

[With a box]

Is Elan multiclassed with Dashing-swordman, isn't it?

[Cicciograna]

Yes he is, but note that I've just referenced the strip as a source of my question, not to compare the two respective builds :smallwink:

But since you introduced the topic, let's compare a Bard 16 (as if Elan never took the PrC) and a Fighter 5/Rogue 2/Sorcerer 8 as the build for Nale (as per the Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329816-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XII-Even-Nerds-Call-Us-Nerds&p=16946855&viewfull=1#post16946855) thread), assuming the lowest possible hypotized levels in the Rogue and Sorcerer classes given what we saw in the comic.

Which build is more powerful in terms of raw damage? And in terms of versatility? Of problem solving?

[Endril]

Questions like this can be so hard to answer, because it depends on the situation. I'm assuming you just mean how much hp damage they can do in your typical fight, but does it count if the bard can make someone helpless and then coup de grace them?

Regardless of that, you're comparing a bard with more BAB, more skill ranks, and 6th level spells, to a multi class sorcerer with 4th level spells. I'm having a hard time seeing where the multi class build would excel at anything without the help of prestige classes.

[zingbobco000]

On one hand we have someone who is a skill-monkey gish... While on the other we have a buffer-monkey-bot. In theroy I think that Nale would probobly win if he played his cards correctly. Though bards work best as a supporting role so I'm not sure how that would work out.

[nedz]

If your focus is Skills+Enchantment then Beguiler beats both options.
It's not so good at hitting things though.

[da_chicken]

It was true under 3.0, primarily because Bards suffered ASF and only had 4 skill points a level. I distinctly remember threads on the old WotC vBulletin boards where people showed that an Enchanter/Rogue was just better. You do have to remember that the 3.0 splatbooks were all that there was, so there wasn't much support.