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View Full Version : And D&D becomes more like Diablo



Ramza00
2007-02-10, 11:54 AM
Now we have sockets and stuff to put into them. (Note there is some sneak attack love in this link)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070209a

Quietus
2007-02-10, 12:09 PM
An interesting option, and I did used to play D2 all the time, but I just don't think I like the idea behind it. Feels too much like playing lego inside the D&D world.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 12:22 PM
Fools! Crystals are psionic! Psionic! What nonsensical madness are these so-called "magic crystals"? You have made powerful enemies this day... enemies who can kill you with their minds!

Roderick_BR
2007-02-10, 12:52 PM
Heh.. . NeverwinterNights already uses them. Only that they are usually epic level stuff there.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-10, 01:26 PM
So the concept of modular magic is entirely Diablo's idea. Nobody else has ever had the idea before. Ever. ¬_¬

Yyyyyeah.

Seatbelt
2007-02-10, 01:27 PM
Heh.. . NeverwinterNights already uses them. Only that they are usually epic level stuff there.


I've beaten NWN twice and played through large tracts of Underdark multiple times. I dont remember ever seeing anything like this in NWN?

LurkerinthePlaygnd
2007-02-10, 01:32 PM
Sounds like Champions of Norrath too.

Quietus
2007-02-10, 01:40 PM
So the concept of modular magic is entirely Diablo's idea. Nobody else has ever had the idea before. Ever. ¬_¬

Yyyyyeah.

True. FF7 and its Materia system came out before this - and those crystals sound more like materia than runes/gems/jewels anyway. Since, in the process of taking a rune/gem/jewel out of an item, you destroy it. Materia could be used however you like.

Scorpina
2007-02-10, 01:43 PM
Mmm, I read this earlier. It's totally materia.

So, to make FFVII characters you need this and maybe Monkey Grip...

JaronK
2007-02-10, 01:43 PM
And there's an item of endless sneak attacking against undead! About damn time!

JaronK

JadedDM
2007-02-10, 01:43 PM
Now they just need to introduce save points and rule that staying one night at the inn heals all HP and we can call it a night!

Quietus
2007-02-10, 01:48 PM
Ugh... endless sneak attacking undead? HOW???? The fluff just doesn't make sense!

I wouldn't allow anything that would allow a Rogue to sneak attack undead into my game; Undead are part of what keeps the Rogue from killing everything in sight before the fighters/wizards/etc can get to them.

JaronK
2007-02-10, 01:49 PM
So... you haven't played a rogue then, huh?

JaronK

kamikasei
2007-02-10, 01:59 PM
I've beaten NWN twice and played through large tracts of Underdark multiple times. I dont remember ever seeing anything like this in NWN?

I think he's referring to the various light gems, which appeared as crafting items in (I think) Hordes of the Underdark. Since that was the expansion that brought in epic levels, that may be where the idea that the items were for epic play came from.

Those gems, though, could only be used to add a light effect to an item, and were consumed when used, so you couldn't keep a couple around and swap them out for different effects. Nor were there any that gave you a more advanced magical effect than a nice, coloured glow.

What these really remind me of are the modular lightsaber crystals from Knights of the Old Republic.

AmoDman
2007-02-10, 02:00 PM
Sorry, but this isn't materia. It is closest to D2 weapon enhancement socketing. Materia gives you spells and summons to cast, not truedeath effect to your bastard sword.

clericwithnogod
2007-02-10, 02:07 PM
Nice to put an end to this however they do it...

DM: You enter a village. There is an tavern near the edge of town as you approach.

Rogue Player: "I go into the tavern and chat up the other patrons to figure out where we are."

DM (in tavern wench voice): "Hi, welcome to Barovia! What *GAKKK!*

Rogue Player (Pinning now-prone DM with a mechanical pencil pressed against the DMs jugular): "I'm sorry...where did she say we were again?"

DM (rasping): "Baromia! Baromia! No undead here! Just problems with um... Drow, yeah Drow, that's it, and ummmm...."

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 02:11 PM
Ugh... endless sneak attacking undead? HOW???? The fluff just doesn't make sense!

I wouldn't allow anything that would allow a Rogue to sneak attack undead into my game; Undead are part of what keeps the Rogue from killing everything in sight before the fighters/wizards/etc can get to them.

Er... That's sarcastic, right?


What these really remind me of are the modular lightsaber crystals from Knights of the Old Republic.

Yeah, except you don't have to go back to the Ebon Hawk every time you want to change it out.

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-10, 02:18 PM
^^I don't get it

clericwithnogod
2007-02-10, 02:28 PM
Being able to swap them in and out via a couple move actions bugs me. Getting the perfect enhancement for whatever you're facing on the fly is kind of bleh. Having it take non-combat amounts of time like overnight or something to attune seems a little more balanced to me.

EDIT: Wow, that Restful armor crystal sucks. 250 GP to wipe out one of the few benefits of the endurance feat and a benefit for characters that wear light armor. There's a point where having magic items that do everything and change every other rule in the game, particularly this cheaply, make having limitiations at all kind of pointless.

Hallavast
2007-02-10, 03:04 PM
Yep. Just like Diablo 2. But I liked that particular facet of D2.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-10, 03:15 PM
^^I don't get it

Knights of the Old Republic and it's rushed-out sequel featured customizable lightsabers. You could build them with various crystals to enhance their powers (eg You could make a lightsaber that dealt extra damage to droids, or a lightsaber that dealt lots of damage on a critical, or one that stunned opponents, etc). To change out crystals, you had to return to your ship, the Ebon Hawk, and alter the saber on a workbench (there were also several workbenches in various machine shops and the like throughout the games). This was simple if you were in a friendly town, but if you were inside a "dungeon" it would prove more difficult (often, getting back to the Hawk would be literally impossible before clearing the dungeon--you'd have to hope for a workbench to turn up somewhere or else carry multiple lightsabers to deal with every contingency). These enhancement crystals, on the other hand, are far easier to swap out: With it only requiring a total of two move actions (no AoO) to change from one crystal to another, you can feasably change crystals in the middle of combat. That's too easy, I think.

tarbrush
2007-02-10, 03:21 PM
You realise they're also following D2 in producing 'set' items. Get 3 from the same set and get extra benefits type of thing.

Still, the crystals and the sets are good ideas.

However what I'm most looking forward to is revised rules for magic item creation and a big fat nerf bat for the candle of invocation.

Inyssius Tor
2007-02-10, 03:22 PM
Balance-Wise: Eeeugh. Even with my rudimentary skills at balance, these look bad.

Overall Flavor-Wise: I hate it. No matter how much fluff you stuff it with, it feels ambiance-destroying.

Fluff: These amethysts are enchanted with powerful divination magic and resonates with positive energy; they were shaped long ago by the highest of a long-forgotten order, with which to destroy the undead scourge. Even at their least powerful, they can infuse magic weapons with holy energy; at their strongest, they can enhance the perception of their wielders, allowing them to strike at weak points and flaws in the negative energy flow that powers undead.

Thiel
2007-02-10, 03:28 PM
Ugh... endless sneak attacking undead? HOW???? The fluff just doesn't make sense!

I wouldn't allow anything that would allow a Rogue to sneak attack undead into my game; Undead are part of what keeps the Rogue from killing everything in sight before the fighters/wizards/etc can get to them.
I'm fairly certain there's a feat out there that does the same thing.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-02-10, 03:29 PM
well; the idea behind modular magic is ancient. It's about time they put some rulings into the game for DnD. Now.. crystals... hmmm... I don't think there is anything else, besides wicked expensive gems that they could have used.

Quietus
2007-02-10, 03:37 PM
I'm fairly certain there's a feat out there that does the same thing.

And without some sort of awesome backstory to it, I wouldn't allow that either. Maybe I've just had bad experiences, but the most overpowered characters I've seen in my time DMing have all been rogues - the ONLY way to throw a challenge at them was to send something they couldn't kill in one turn of sneak attacks. That meant undead, plants, and elementals became a bit more common - not to stupid amounts, but enough so that the rogue didn't dominate every fight. Because if the rogue could sneak attack it, the target became a fine red mist constantly.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-10, 11:25 PM
Save points already exist, in a way. Go see the CO boards on Wizards some time. :P

clericwithnogod
2007-02-10, 11:42 PM
OK, one of these looks like this:

Lesser: As the least...
Greater: As the lesser...

and one looks like this:

Lesser: As the least...
Greater: As the least...

Typo or deliberate?

If typo, what's most likely?
a) Acknowledged as typo and corrected in errata by WotC
b) Completely ignored by WotC
c) Claimed to be deliberate by WotC

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-11, 12:12 AM
Yea, I'm smelling Blizzarditis... D2 and WoW both have these (although the WoW crystals were usually only able to be put on the UberGear and extremely rare/expensive).

*sniffs the air* What's that I smell... Limburger... because that's the only kind of cheeze that smells this bad...

Mr. Haul? Mr. Haul? Hey Monty... I think someone's trying to muscle in on your territory...

I just realized... this also sounds a LOT like the EQ Augment system when it first came out. You can safely remove augments as you like (although some of them can cost up to 4k to remove them safely). Of course, with the advent of DoN and multi-slot items, things just got stupid, but hey... what's EQ without a lot of mudflation?

Jack Mann
2007-02-11, 12:24 AM
^^I don't get it

If you were referring to Cleric's post, he's talking about the setting of Return to Castle Ravenloft, an undead that focuses a great deal on the undead. Not the best combat situation for a rogue, normally.

Wehrkind
2007-02-11, 12:27 AM
I suspect things of this nature crop up because when you get right down to it, there is not a great way for WotC to make money off D&D without new rules. Players can make their own monsters, their own items, their own stories and worlds. With the internet, such things are practically free, as 1000's of people make things and share them (see this board's section, for example.) The only things WotC has a monopoly on are rules. Players can house rule things, but only WotC makes "official rules" that players are more or less compelled to accept. So, sometimes WotC feels the need to freshen up the rules and add some things in order to keep people buying books.
Games Workshop does this all the time as well. Not that it is necessarily good, but it seems to make them money and keep the hobby moving.

clericwithnogod
2007-02-11, 02:11 AM
If you were referring to Cleric's post, he's talking about the setting of Return to Castle Ravenloft, an undead that focuses a great deal on the undead. Not the best combat situation for a rogue, normally.

Depends on how unlucky you are...224 pages of sucks to be a rogue in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft or lord only knows how many pages of sucks to be a rogue in converted Ravenloft campaign setting stuff....

Roderick_BR
2007-02-11, 03:42 AM
I've beaten NWN twice and played through large tracts of Underdark multiple times. I dont remember ever seeing anything like this in NWN?
Maybe it's customizable for settings. In the server I'm playing, I'm carrying a Katana with sockets for 4 gems.

Dhavaer
2007-02-11, 04:51 AM
On the upside, it lets you further customise weapons and makes a decent enhancement bonus a little more desireable.

On the downside, two move actions? Have Wizards been smoking their spellbooks again? I'd say a day, minimum. You shouldn't be able to alter your weapon like this during combat. They seem amazingly underpriced, as well. 2,500gp for an untyped +5 AC bonus? Even if it is limited to just ranged attacks, that's still amazing. Requiring a shield is not that much of a disadvantage. So much for beholders.

JaronK
2007-02-11, 04:56 AM
I'm absolutely cracking up that some people are saying "man, it's so overpowered that rogues, a d6 HD 3/4BAB light armour only melee class, will now not be totally worthless in undead campaigns! Nerf them!

Come on. Seriously. Rogues are good if they manage to flank the target or get the drop on them, but if they're flanking they're often very vulnerable, and if they can't get the drop on the target, it's really tough. With their low HPs, need for Int (and thus worse melee stats), and massive reliance on sneak attack, they're not exactly competing with Warblades for damage output... or even with Barbarians. And melees need all the help they can get.

JaronK

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-11, 05:21 AM
And without some sort of awesome backstory to it, I wouldn't allow that either. Maybe I've just had bad experiences, but the most overpowered characters I've seen in my time DMing have all been rogues - the ONLY way to throw a challenge at them was to send something they couldn't kill in one turn of sneak attacks. That meant undead, plants, and elementals became a bit more common - not to stupid amounts, but enough so that the rogue didn't dominate every fight. Because if the rogue could sneak attack it, the target became a fine red mist constantly.

Man what?
The Melee Rogue™ is appealing to a lot of newbies. I used to love'em. But it just doesn't work that way.
Rogues are fragile. Frontlining is a good way to get yourself splattered. They have, generally, a low-ish attack bonus. They won't land every attack, so their real damage output is less than their potential damage output.
Plus, their fort AND will saves are weak. Magic? Poison? Pwned.

Rogues just aren't viable melee types. A rogue with TWF (heavy feat investment) does about the same damage as a solid Greatsword Guy who Power Attacks for reasonable values. He can't do as much damage as an optimized melee damage guy.

MandoFTR
2007-02-11, 06:03 AM
Why do so many people seem to think that without sneak attack, rogues are useless?

Rogues could still:
-Sneak past guards
-disable lethal traps
-open pesky adamantine doors
-steal

Iron_Mouse
2007-02-11, 06:39 AM
You realise they're also following D2 in producing 'set' items. Get 3 from the same set and get extra benefits type of thing.

We already have some sets in D&D, for example, the Regalia of Good/Evil/Neutrality. Okay, they are artifacts, but still...

For the crystals, I have to admit that I like the idea, despite the fact that they remind of Diablo 2.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-11, 10:14 AM
Seriously, a rogue's power doesn't come from sneak attack. It comes from the fact that an intelligently played rogue will never need to enter combat.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-11, 10:16 AM
...yeah, his buddies will be delighted that he's standing by while they're slugging it out.

JellyPooga
2007-02-11, 10:25 AM
...and they'll be more delighted when he tries to entre combat, dies and they have to either a) fork out for ressurection or b) pay for burial...

...If Rogues are as bad at combat as people seem to think...(which I don't)

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-11, 10:28 AM
Rogues are fine in combat, as long as they don't try to slug it out with tough monsters. Sneak Attack makes them viable in a fight where they wouldn't be otherwise.

Ramza00
2007-02-11, 12:18 PM
Why do so many people seem to think that without sneak attack, rogues are useless?

Rogues could still:
-Sneak past guards
-disable lethal traps
-open pesky adamantine doors
-steal

Bingo this is why giving the rogue the ability to sneak attack undead won't overpower them.

Behold_the_Void
2007-02-11, 01:49 PM
Not to mention it requires the rogue to have at least one if not two weapons with a base +3 enhancement to attack and damage.

Arceliar
2007-02-11, 02:49 PM
Diablo 2...
Sequal to Diablo...
Which was a graphical adaptation...
Of the Rogue-like genera...
Which consists of dungeon crawling games like Rogue...
Which was directly based on early D&D.

So now WotC is copying a copy?...

The undead thing does seem overpowered to me. That's the kind of thing you'd expect some good divine-caster/rogue prestige class to get, not any idiot with 10k gp lying around.

"I sneak-attack one of the skeleton's completely nonvital vertebrae. Extra 4d6 damage!"

Deus Mortus
2007-02-11, 03:41 PM
D2 was a solid and good game and I loved the gem system, so I don't mind that they are put in, thought perhaps the time needed to change is a bit short, I'd say 5 fullround actions which each provokes an AoO.

Duraska
2007-02-12, 12:09 AM
I guess this really isn't surprizing. D&D is being turned into an action game more and more each day.

3.0 and 3.5 pretty much require miniatures to play out all the combat rules. Add in the 8-bajillion base classes and prestige classes (found in various Wizard-published books), and now socketable enhancements, and you're pretty much looking at a table-top version of a computer "roleplaying" game.

It's quite sad in my opinion. But, you can always just ignore all these new rules. Heck, there's nothing stopping me from playing 2e if I want to. However, I do find myself starting to notice just how much the d20 system screams "license me for use in a video game." :sigh:

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-12, 12:19 AM
That's actually what my players love most about D&D. They're all avid players of video game RPG's, so this is like the single most expansive RPG ever made to them. It really did astound them to begin with when I explained the depth of the customization and how pretty much anything was possible.

And what I meant by the rogues not having to enter combat is that they have a plethora of other ways of dealing with enemies besides "roll initiative". Certainly I'd be a little peeved if I was a class only good at fighting and all I got to do was soak damage from suddenly CR-inappropriate monsters, but a rogue's contribution in the fight is infinitely less necessary then their ability to, say, completely avoid those monsters and loot the dungeon blind without being caught. The sneak attack is more there to help the party out then yourself.

Jack Mann
2007-02-12, 12:42 AM
The undead thing does seem overpowered to me. That's the kind of thing you'd expect some good divine-caster/rogue prestige class to get, not any idiot with 10k gp lying around.

"I sneak-attack one of the skeleton's completely nonvital vertebrae. Extra 4d6 damage!"
It really isn't. Rogues will never dominate combat, no matter if they can sneak attack undead or not. This just allows them to do something aside from hide during combat against zombies.

And skeletons still have weak spots. So do zombies. They aren't amorphous oozes. They may not have functional organs, but they still have joints and moving parts that can be damaged.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-12, 12:45 AM
I did always assume that the reason sneak attack doesn't work on undead is because they don't understand how they work well enough, anatomy-wise. "Stab them in the gut, nothing? Slit their throat, no dice? Well that's weird." Of course, having a GEM let you suddenly "Ohh, I have to strike it in places that inhibit movement and such!" is pretty... odd.

It'd be cooler as a feat.

ObiwanNekody
2007-02-12, 01:06 AM
I don't like this. Perhaps if it was an investment in the weapon - ie the ability to add a +3 value crystal is a +3(or perhaps +4) effect on the weapon, or the crystals could be expendable, possibly running out of charge, or having them be destroyed by low level effect such as dispel magic, or, as others have suggested, making it take longer to change the crystal, it would be ok.

The worst thing is that it further cheapens the 'awe' in magic weapons, to the point of which you character is not justified in carrying just-in-case magic weapons, such as a +1 ghost touch dagger, or not always useful major ones, such as +2 dragon-bane great sword, when they could just have a +3 greatsword with ghost touch and dragon-bane crystals.(hopefuly they don't just have a -foo-bane crystal, where you pick the target type when you put the crystal in).
...This really ruins weapon fluff. and i like killing those kitties with the fluff.

About the sneak attack i have noticed that the munchkin-like people[in my group] like the rogue the most. I don't like the crystal giving the power, but i do like the idea of the feat - so long as it takes something like two ranks of Knowledge: Necromancy(or perhaps the ability to turn undead?) to get it.

Thomas
2007-02-12, 01:09 AM
Wait, what? How do optional extra magic items ruin anything at all? That's ridiculous. Nobody's forcing you to include them in your game.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-02-12, 01:22 AM
I did always assume that the reason sneak attack doesn't work on undead is because they don't understand how they work well enough, anatomy-wise. "Stab them in the gut, nothing? Slit their throat, no dice? Well that's weird." Of course, having a GEM let you suddenly "Ohh, I have to strike it in places that inhibit movement and such!" is pretty... odd.

It'd be cooler as a feat.Eh, it already exists as a spell (Gravestrike) which makes it weird to not be available in any other magical form.

Really though, these are a potentially interesting option. Considering how quickly magic weapons get expensive, it's nice to have baby steps available for customizing your weapon. The fact that they can be swapped out as move actions does seem a bit much, though. Following the KotOR example, spending a little bit of time at a work bench seems like a pretty fair way to do it.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-12, 01:24 AM
And without some sort of awesome backstory to it, I wouldn't allow that either. Maybe I've just had bad experiences, but the most overpowered characters I've seen in my time DMing have all been rogues - the ONLY way to throw a challenge at them was to send something they couldn't kill in one turn of sneak attacks. That meant undead, plants, and elementals became a bit more common - not to stupid amounts, but enough so that the rogue didn't dominate every fight. Because if the rogue could sneak attack it, the target became a fine red mist constantly.

Rogues, by their nature, have crappy HD and thus, are easily killable. Just a few examples off the top of my head:

<> Other Rogues: A Rogue who's level 4 or higher can't be flanked, and thus becomes more difficult to Sneak Attack.

<> Likewise, a Barbarian beyond 1st level can't be Sneak Attacked, pretty much any time. Barbarians don't ever lose to Rogues unless they're somehow immobilized.

<> Anything which is likely to get a surprise round.

<> Anything with a decently high Dexterity and Improved Initiative. The Rogue can't hit someone flat-footed unless he or she beats their initiative roll.

<> Anything from the following creature types: Many abberations, all constructs, all elementals, some giants (if the Rogue can't reach the vital spots, she doesn't get Sneak Attack damage... and I'd rule that any vital spots are out of reach if the Giants wear Medium or Heavy armor), all ooze, all plants, all undead, anything which is huge or larger (see the Giant entry).

Any of the above, and you've got a recipe for tasty rogue death. Rogues are death on humanoids they've got the drop on, but there are quite a few options for the enterprising DM who's willing to move into the realm of real monsters.