Warblade + Vital Recovery + Out of Combat = Automatic full HP?

[Amphetryon]

Question in title; previous discussions on this topic here appear very brief (without consensus that I could find) and very old. Between the way that a Warblade recovers Maneuvers and the text of the Vital Recovery Feat, does a Warblade who takes that Feat simply regain full HP between encounters without any extra resource expenditure of any kind?

Warblade Maneuver recovery text:
"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action". . .[and] "In the case of a long, drawn-out series of fights, or if an adept is out of combat entirely, assume that if a character makes no attacks of any kind, initiates no new maneuvers, and is not targeted by any enemy attacks for 1 full minute, he can recover all expended maneuvers."

Vital Recovery Feat text:
"When you recover one or more expended maneuvers, you heal 3 hit points + 1/initiator level. You can gain this benefit only once per encounter."

My initial reading on this interaction is that it's not intended to be usable outside of combat, because of the "per encounter" clause. . . but the concept of what constitutes an encounter is nebulous at best in 3.X.

[Callin]

The ToB defines it as around once per minute to refresh manuvers on their own. So the most favorable ruling is that it can happen once per minute of taking the time to actually focus on it. The worst ruling and RAI is probably once per actual combat where you are threatened either by a creature or trap. Sorta like the wording on the Devoted Spirit stuff needing an actual threat to heal.

[Fouredged Sword]

An encounter is more than just a combat. You can get steady healing all day with this feat, but not unlimited. It's more of a steady drip that heals you 3+IL 5-10 times per day. When every you refresh your maneuvers you can pick up a little HP, but it can't be spammed. Encounters can be the rogue disarming traps in a room (MOUNTAIN HAMMMMEEERRRRR!!!), or a locked door (MOUNTAIN HAMMMERRRRRR!!!!!).

[Amphetryon]

An encounter is more than just a combat. You can get steady healing all day with this feat, but not unlimited. It's more of a steady drip that heals you 3+IL 5-10 times per day. When every you refresh your maneuvers you can pick up a little HP, but it can't be spammed. Encounters can be the rogue disarming traps in a room (MOUNTAIN HAMMMMEEERRRRR!!!), or a locked door (MOUNTAIN HAMMMERRRRRR!!!!!).

The nature of how Warblades recover their Maneuvers means that spamming said recovery is actually extremely feasible, by RAW (if not by RAI).

[Fouredged Sword]

Technically no. Encounters are well defined. An encounter is a discrete element that provides a set amount of EXP based on it's CR. This is very visible from the DM side of the screen if you are using traditional exp rewards, though it is commonly invisible from the player side, as they get the actual EXP later in a batch after they reach a plot point or the end of the session.

A trap that is encountered with goblins is all part of one encounter and the CR of the encounter accounts for all the elements. A trap in another room from the goblins is counted interdependently from the goblins, and is a encounter of itself.

The DM should account for this and tell you the moment you enter a new encounter and your vital recovery refreshes.

[Amphetryon]

When "a single Swift Action" allows a Warblade to recover all maneuvers, is there a RAW argument you're making that prevents spamming recovery? For example, is there text that specifically limits use of Swift Actions to encounters, and if so, where is this text located?

[Fouredged Sword]

You can gain this benefit only once per encounter

Vital recovery. You can't just ignore that section and declare for yourself when an encounter starts and ends. The DM makes encounters, and you get to use this ability once per encounter. If you use it, you have to wait until another encounter starts to use it again. You can refresh your maneuvers as commonly as you like, you only get 1 healing per encounter.

[Red Fel]

When "a single Swift Action" allows a Warblade to recover all maneuvers, is there a RAW argument you're making that prevents spamming recovery? For example, is there text that specifically limits use of Swift Actions to encounters, and if so, where is this text located?

There are some interpretations that allow all-day abuse of healing-via-maneuver. For example, the Devoted Spirit stance Martial Spirit allows you, or an ally within 30 feet, to recover 2 health every time you make a "successful melee attack." Not once per encounter, not once per round, not on a living enemy or an enemy who threatens you with harm or an enemy with an opposed alignment. Every successful melee attack. That can be easily abused out of combat. You can make an incredibly high number of successful melee attacks against a large rock in a relatively short amount of time, for example.

But look back at Vital Recovery. The language there is clear: "once per encounter." And as others have stated, while encounters have various definitions, they are generally well defined as "a scene which may result in xp gain." That may include social encounters, puzzle encounters, combat encounters, or a number of other options.

It does not, generally, include sitting and doing nothing every minute or so.

[boxfox]

Question in title; previous discussions on this topic here appear very brief (without consensus that I could find) and very old. Between the way that a Warblade recovers Maneuvers and the text of the Vital Recovery Feat, does a Warblade who takes that Feat simply regain full HP between encounters without any extra resource expenditure of any kind?

Warblade Maneuver recovery text:
"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action". . .[and] "In the case of a long, drawn-out series of fights, or if an adept is out of combat entirely, assume that if a character makes no attacks of any kind, initiates no new maneuvers, and is not targeted by any enemy attacks for 1 full minute, he can recover all expended maneuvers."

Vital Recovery Feat text:
"When you recover one or more expended maneuvers, you heal 3 hit points + 1/initiator level. You can gain this benefit only once per encounter."

My initial reading on this interaction is that it's not intended to be usable outside of combat, because of the "per encounter" clause. . . but the concept of what constitutes an encounter is nebulous at best in 3.X.

I always took it to mean what it says...when you recover a maneuver, you get a few HP. You can't recover something that you haven't lost yet...

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, that is also a restriction, as you must expend a maneuver as it specifies you must recover "1 or more", but that does not remove or mitigate the "Per encounter" clause.

[Chronos]

An encounter is any time you're interacting with anything or anyone else. Hey, look, there's a rock over there, I wonder what's underneath it? Presto, that's an encounter. Hey, I'll bet I could see further if I climbed that tree! Another encounter. Yeah, you probably won't get any XP for either of those encounters, but you are interacting with the environment.

[Kazudo]

As a DM (who can be somewhat rules-light to begin with) I would probably rule that it would work. Unfortunately, because the definition of an "encounter" is pretty rough in 3.5, and as has been stated previously the DM decides what an "encounter" is, this would need a DM ruling to make work. Your hypothesis is sound, though the situation has to be just right for the theory to work.

[Metahuman1]

There are some interpretations that allow all-day abuse of healing-via-maneuver. For example, the Devoted Spirit stance Martial Spirit allows you, or an ally within 30 feet, to recover 2 health every time you make a "successful melee attack." Not once per encounter, not once per round, not on a living enemy or an enemy who threatens you with harm or an enemy with an opposed alignment. Every successful melee attack. That can be easily abused out of combat. You can make an incredibly high number of successful melee attacks against a large rock in a relatively short amount of time, for example.

But look back at Vital Recovery. The language there is clear: "once per encounter." And as others have stated, while encounters have various definitions, they are generally well defined as "a scene which may result in xp gain." That may include social encounters, puzzle encounters, combat encounters, or a number of other options.

It does not, generally, include sitting and doing nothing every minute or so.

I always though a little sprinkle of binder for that Vestige that gives the never ending Raven Familiar would be neat for this purpose.

[Malroth]

have the druid/sorcorer/etc use their summon elemental reserve feat and fight it as an encounter.

[Vogonjeltz]

There are some interpretations that allow all-day abuse of healing-via-maneuver. For example, the Devoted Spirit stance Martial Spirit allows you, or an ally within 30 feet, to recover 2 health every time you make a "successful melee attack." Not once per encounter, not once per round, not on a living enemy or an enemy who threatens you with harm or an enemy with an opposed alignment. Every successful melee attack. That can be easily abused out of combat. You can make an incredibly high number of successful melee attacks against a large rock in a relatively short amount of time, for example.

PHB defines a melee attack as something done against an opponent. A rock isn't an opponent, not even for sisyphus.

[Curmudgeon]

When "a single Swift Action" allows a Warblade to recover all maneuvers, is there a RAW argument you're making that prevents spamming recovery? For example, is there text that specifically limits use of Swift Actions to encounters, and if so, where is this text located?
Use of any combat actions is predicated on combat timing; i.e., it starts when you roll initiative and have individual turns. Otherwise, you're at the whim of your DM.
You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action.
You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.
turn: The point in the round at which you take your action(s). On your turn, you may perform one or more actions, as dictated by your current circumstances.
round: A 6-second unit of game time used to manage combat. Every combatant may take at least one action every round. Combat timing ends whenever the DM makes that decision. You lose the guaranteed capability of taking swift actions when combat timing ends. After that, it's the DM's call as to whether any swift actions are allowed.

[TuggyNE]

Use of any combat actions is predicated on combat timing; i.e., it starts when you roll initiative and have individual turns. Otherwise, you're at the whim of your DM. Combat timing ends whenever the DM makes that decision. You lose the guaranteed capability of taking swift actions when combat timing ends. After that, it's the DM's call as to whether any swift actions are allowed.

That's pretty ridiculous, since this applies to all other action types as well, which means (among many other things) that feather fall, fabricate, prestidigitation, Open Lock, Search, and Sleight of Hand can only be used in combat. This sort of misconception seems akin to believing that characters are limited to one per 5' square outside of combat: the simulator is explicitly intended to work on rule of common sense for simple things that are not mentioned like that.

Now, sure, if you want to argue that all of those only work with DM permission, maybe you're right, but only in a trivial sense, since all of those should always be allowed.

[Curmudgeon]

That's pretty ridiculous, since this applies to all other action types as well, which means (among many other things) that feather fall ...
Not quite all other action types. There are rules for long-distance travel which don't use combat timing. While you're traveling, Spot and Listen reactive (no action) skills will keep you apprised of your environment, and Balance will let you react to slippery or narrow surfaces. Resting and preparing spells don't use combat timing.

Since the change to an immediate action, Feather Fall can only be used in combat (or by a character with at least 2 levels of Scout).
You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
I'm not disagreeing that it's pretty ridiculous, mind. It's just the RAW.

[TuggyNE]

Not quite all other action types. There are rules for long-distance travel which don't use combat timing. While you're traveling, Spot and Listen reactive (no action) skills will keep you apprised of your environment, and Balance will let you react to slippery or narrow surfaces. Resting and preparing spells don't use combat timing.

Those are not action types, and I note the complete lack of any answer to most of my examples, which are only the tip of the iceberg.


Since the change to an immediate action, Feather Fall can only be used in combat (or by a character with at least 2 levels of Scout).
I'm not disagreeing that it's pretty ridiculous, mind. It's just the RAW.

Hrm. Actually, thank you for posting that, because I've realized that that too is wrong. Ironically, this is backwards: you're saying that flat-footedness (which in both its definition and its explanation in the combat section is explicitly tied to actual combat) applies outside of combat, and that action types (which are nowhere tied to initiative, as far as I can tell) do not. Both are blatantly dysfunctional, and I find the RAW support entirely lacking in both cases.

[Vogonjeltz]

Use of any combat actions is predicated on combat timing; i.e., it starts when you roll initiative and have individual turns. Otherwise, you're at the whim of your DM. Combat timing ends whenever the DM makes that decision. You lose the guaranteed capability of taking swift actions when combat timing ends. After that, it's the DM's call as to whether any swift actions are allowed.

That last bit about swift actions is what let's you do them out of combat: you can do a swift action anytime you could do a free action.

[Amphetryon]

Hrm. Actually, thank you for posting that, because I've realized that that too is wrong. Ironically, this is backwards: you're saying that flat-footedness (which in both its definition and its explanation in the combat section is explicitly tied to actual combat) applies outside of combat, and that action types (which are nowhere tied to initiative, as far as I can tell) do not. Both are blatantly dysfunctional, and I find the RAW support entirely lacking in both cases.
Indeed, I would like to see the passages in the RAW where 'a Character is always flat-footed outside of combat' or 'action types are exclusive to the Initiative/Combat system' is spelled out.

[Troacctid]

This sort of misconception seems akin to believing that characters are limited to one per 5' square outside of combat: the simulator is explicitly intended to work on rule of common sense for simple things that are not mentioned like that.

That one actually is explicitly mentioned in RAW, as it happens.


In general, when the characters aren’t engaged in round-by-round combat, they should be able to move anywhere and in any manner that you can imagine real people could. A 5-foot square, for instance, can hold several characters; they just can’t all fight effectively in that small space.

[TuggyNE]

That one actually is explicitly mentioned in RAW, as it happens.

Yes. That's why I used it, because it's impossible to argue against. :smallwink: My point was that the rules tell you, "hey dudes, outside of combat things are more relaxed, particularly as far as exact positioning and all that kind of bookkeeping", so arguing that, outside of combat, you are suddenly not allowed to do vast swathes of possible things without special "DM may I" permission is absurd.

[HighWater]

I find "per encounter" to be pretty well defined, all things considered. It definitely doesn't mean endless healing outside of combat. The DMG has a chapter on encounters (which predictably deals almost exclusively with combat), which includes the following list of encounter-types:



Combat:
Combat encounters can be divided into two groups:
attack and defense.(...)
Negotiation:
Although threats can often be involved, a negotiation encounter involves less swordplay and more wordplay. Convincing NPCs to do what the PCs want them to is challenging for both players and DM(...)
Environmental:
Weather, earthquakes, landslides, fast-moving rivers, and fires are just some of the environmental conditions that can challenge even mid- to high-level PCs.
Problem-Solving:
Mysteries, puzzles, riddles, or anything that requires the players to use logic and reason to try to overcome the challenge counts as a problem-solving encounter.
Judgment Calls:
“Do we help the prisoner here in the dungeon, even though it might be a trap?” Rather than depending on logic, these encounters usually involve inclination and gut
instinct.
Investigation:
This is a long-term sort of encounter involving some negotiation and some problem-solving. An investigation may be called for to solve a mystery or to learn something new.
Sure, following this to the letter isn't full-proof (what happens if you have a combat during an investigation?), but it's pretty clear that sitting around and doing a combat manoever every minute or so does not an encounter make. Be careful with applying (stretched) real world meanings to the term encounter. Nobody in the real world will call picking up a rock an encounter. Even when there is no clear boundry as to what is an encounter, the conclusion that everything is an encounter is still not a correct conclusion to draw.
In the end, the DM determines what is an encounter. This feat was clearly meant to be used during a dangerous episode only, and only once during each particular dangerous episode. So, no infinite healing, buy a wand.