Glitterdust, Why all the Hype?

[CrazyYanmega]

My Sparrow Hengeyoukai Bard recently leveled up to 4, and that means 2nd level spells! I was looking through the list of possible spells to learn, and saw Glitterdust. I've heard a lot of "it's a Game Breaker" about it when people are talking about how spellcasters are broken. I just don't get what the big deal is.

So a -40 to Hide checks, and you can see invisible creatures caught in it, and they are blinded for a couple of rounds. I can see the benefit of slightly lowered enemy AC and opponent's miss chance, but how is this better than Suggestion or perhaps Mirror Image?

Could someone please explain to me the power behind these "Uber spells?"

[Eldan]

I'd prefer suggestion too. But essentially, it can easily win a combat. If the enemy is blinded, he can pretty easily be clubbed to death. And they can't really hit you: they have to guess where you are and you still get a 50% miss chance.

[Boci]

Mirror image doesn't make the fight any easier for you and your allies, it just protects you. Very powerful spell, but probably not the best first pick.

Suggestion is power, especially since, assuming spells were balanced (teehee) with the wizard in mind, its a level higher higher than glitterdust. But it only affects one target, and its mind affecting, so its easier to resist. It does however have uses in social encounters, unlike glitterdust. So yeah, its a different spell, but when spells are compared, you are usually talking about the 9th level casters, so glitterdust and suggestion are never in direct comparison.

[boxfox]

Also, no spell resistance and the saving throw is Will (Negates)...Will being the least common save at lower levels.

With that said, it's only 1 round/level in a 10-ft. radius spread...not going to do much. Really good against rogues.

It certainly has its uses.

Round 1, you go first, cast Glitterdust on monsters 30ft away.
Round 1, your "tank" charges into the group affected and starts wreaking extreme havoc for 3 rounds with no repercussions.
Round 1, your "rogue" can flank with no fear and make sneak attacks on everyone.

So...yeah it's nice.

[Person_Man]

It's not game breaking. It's just really good for it's level.

[JeminiZero]

Glitterdust is not brokenly powerful (or at least, no more than any other save-or-suck). What makes glitterdust so great is that its usable in wide variety of situations. As a save or suck, it is basically ineffective only against things that have blindsight (Oozes and some Aberrations) which are fairly rare around low levels. And it has the secondary utility of highlighting invisible/hidden creatures. Basically, if you're not sure what you're going to be fighting, you won't go too wrong with Glitterdust.


but how is this better than Suggestion or perhaps Mirror Image?
Glitterdust vs Suggestion:
-Suggestion is 1 level higher, and must compete for level 3 slots with other amazing spells like haste for wizards at least
-Glitterdust can hit multiple targets at once
-Glitterdust is SR:no
-Although both target will saves, Glitterdust is NOT mind affecting. That means it can disable constructs, undead and plants

Suggestion also has the problem that it must sound reasonable, and the DM decides what that means. How bad this makes it depends on the DM.

[Boci]

Glitterdust vs Suggestion:
-Suggestion is 1 level higher, and must compete for level 3 slots with other amazing spells like haste


Not relevant for a bard.

[CrazyYanmega]

Suggestion is 2nd level for bards.

[Endril]

That rogue over there has greater invisibility. You can't attack him unless you know what square he's in. If you know what square he's in and attack him, you have a 50% miss chance. You can't sneak attack him. No matter what he does, you can't take an attack of opportunity on him. He can be anywhere and get sneak attacks on any of you.

You cast glitterdust on his square, and he fails his will save.

That visible rogue over there can't see any of you. He can't attack you unless he knows what squares you're in. Even if he does, he has a 50% miss chance. He can no longer sneak attack you. He can't take attack of opportunities on any of you. The party's rogues can automatically sneak attack him.

Situations like this are why I believe all wizards, and most bards or sorcerers, should have glitterdust. Any level 5+ party should have an answer to invisibility imo, and this one hits an area and causes blindness to boot.

[KillianHawkeye]

Glitterdust isn't some super spell that will win every encounter for you. Is is, however, really good at nerfing anybody with a low Will Save (like most non-spellcasters). It absolutely wrecks anybody who wears light armor and relies on their Dexterity for defense. It also gives the party rogue a free ticket for the Sneak Attack Express.

The fact that you can also use it to make invisible things visible, while certainly useful, comes in at a distant second in the list of reasons to cast Glitterdust.

[Fouredged Sword]

Really, on a bard chassis, I am going to go with suggestion before glitterdust. The wizard should be doing battle field control, the bard should get the social skills. You can sing or swashbuckle. Get a means of hiding your casting as normal singing and you can have a ton of fun with suggestion.

I would get both eventually, but suggestion will come first. The wizard got glitterdust a level ago, but he won't get suggestion for another level yet.

[JeminiZero]

Actually, since the Wizard is probably an Abrupt Jaunting Conjurer who banned Enchantment, he won't get Suggestion until level 7, when he can fake it with Voice if the Dragon. :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

Really, on a bard chassis, I am going to go with suggestion before glitterdust. The wizard should be doing battle field control, the bard should get the social skills. You can sing or swashbuckle. Get a means of hiding your casting as normal singing and you can have a ton of fun with suggestion.

I would get both eventually, but suggestion will come first. The wizard got glitterdust a level ago, but he won't get suggestion for another level yet.

In general, I'd pick up glitterdust if you're the party's primary arcane caster, and suggestion if you're more of a 5th wheel/socialmonkey.

[Deophaun]

Really, on a bard chassis, I am going to go with suggestion before glitterdust. The wizard should be doing battle field control, the bard should get the social skills. You can sing or swashbuckle. Get a means of hiding your casting as normal singing and you can have a ton of fun with suggestion.
That's actually the reason I wouldn't take suggestion. Your skills are already pulling a lot of the weight, so suggestion becomes more situational than it already is. Plus, you're getting suggestion at level 6 anyway through Bardic Music unless you intend to trade it away.

[Eldariel]

Glitterdust actually works on (corporeal) Undead, alongside tons of other stuff. That alone makes it way more versatile than the most options. The problem with Suggestion-like spells is that they're always restricted to enemies not immune to mind-affecting spells, and enemies not under mental protection or such. None of that matters for Glitterdust. A rather reliable AOE with a nice secondary effect and a brutal primary effect on a low level slot? Yeah, it's a keeper.

[Komatik]

I'd like to note here that a 4th-level Bard gets TWO 2nd-level spells known (unlike his poor Sorcerer buddy who's stuck with 1). Why not pick both?

EDIT: Scratch that, I forgot that Alter Self exists. Alter Self and Glitterdust it is.

[Shining Wrath]

Glitterdust is Conjuration; Suggestion is Enchantment.
Which are you more likely to want to spend a Spell Focus feat on?

The anti-invisibility portion of Glitterdust works on any target. And has a blinding effect on anything that needs eyes to see, which even at high levels is most things.

There are entire classes of monsters that are immune to Mind Affecting spells: Construct, Ooze, Plant, Undead, Vermin. There are entire dungeons, quite playable, that rely on only those things. In addition, it's not generally recommended to try to use Suggestion on a Dragon. And while Suggestion can work on Fey - well, two can play that game, and Fey can play it better than most.

Of the 2nd level spells, Glitterdust is on the short list of recommended spells.

[Zombulian]

I've never really thought of Glitterdust as broken as you say, but it is still a great choice for a spell. Even though you seemed to be downplaying it, I'd like to remind you that in the OP you listed 3 things that it does. 3 Things. As a second level spell! 2 of them work to make sure that your opponent can't sneak up on you or run away, and the other lets you stab them when they can't see and can't hit you.

[Vortenger]

Glitterdust:

AoE Spell- Not big, but lvl 2, so thats ok. Sculpt Spell gets good mileage here.
Conjuration (Creation)- Conjuration is considered the best school and is easy to get save DC bumps or effects as riders (Cloudy Conjuration). No SR.
Will Save Negates- While often higher than Reflex, this save is consistently lower than Fortitude, and most blindness effects hit Fort.
Glitter- Nullifies Invisibility and most ability to hide. (Check See Invisibility, while it covers ethereal, good-ol' Hide beats it handily)
Blindness- They lose Dex to AC and take another -2 just 'cause. It grants all party members a 50% miss chance from that creature (compare the better but self only mirror image), It makes it so rogues, wizards, and commoners can run by the creature without provoking. It enables Sneak Attack and its ilk.

Can you name another level 2 spell that offers this much control in a singular package?

Now, for a bard, the others are right. You absolutely can skip this spell, but it is highly recommended someone can cast it, if for the protection from stealthers and nothing else.

[Chronos]

Quoth Shining Wrath:

Glitterdust is Conjuration; Suggestion is Enchantment.
Which are you more likely to want to spend a Spell Focus feat on?
As a bard? Probably enchantment. They don't get very many conjuration spells with saves, but a lot of enchantments. Though a wizard will certainly prefer conjuration, and may even have banned enchantment.

[KillianHawkeye]

Though a wizard will certainly prefer conjuration, and may even have banned enchantment.

This is especially true if there is a Bard (or Beguiler) in the party, since the Wizard is banning a school that he knows other characters will be using a lot. If your Bard is in a party with a Wizard character, let the Wizard take Glitterdust. If not, take it yourself.

[Vogonjeltz]

That rogue over there has greater invisibility. You can't attack him unless you know what square he's in. If you know what square he's in and attack him, you have a 50% miss chance. You can't sneak attack him. No matter what he does, you can't take an attack of opportunity on him. He can be anywhere and get sneak attacks on any of you.

You cast glitterdust on his square, and he fails his will save.

That visible rogue over there can't see any of you. He can't attack you unless he knows what squares you're in. Even if he does, he has a 50% miss chance. He can no longer sneak attack you. He can't take attack of opportunities on any of you. The party's rogues can automatically sneak attack him.

Situations like this are why I believe all wizards, and most bards or sorcerers, should have glitterdust. Any level 5+ party should have an answer to invisibility imo, and this one hits an area and causes blindness to boot.

If the rogue has greater invisibility how do you know he's there, or even where he is to cast glitter dust on his location?

[KillianHawkeye]

If the rogue has greater invisibility how do you know he's there, or even where he is to cast glitter dust on his location?

If we were talking about a Wizard, I'd say because you already have See Invisibility running and you're using Glitterdust to make the Rogue visible to the rest of your party. But for a Bard? Maybe not.

[Bakkan]

If the rogue has greater invisibility how do you know he's there, or even where he is to cast glitter dust on his location?

The great thing about Glitterdust is you don't have to know exactly, just close enough. If your BSF just got shanked from the north, then casting Glitterdust 10-15 ft north of him has a decent chance of catching the rogue in its area.

[Curmudgeon]

If your BSF just got shanked from the north, then casting Glitterdust 10-15 ft north of him has a decent chance of catching the rogue in its area.
D&D has no "facing", so you don't know, even roughly, what direction an attack came from. You either can see the attacker or you can't. All characters are assumed to be constantly checking for danger in all directions. Being hit from somewhere while you're turning about is all you know. If you're hit by an invisible attacker you don't even know if it was a melee or ranged attack. (Ammunition which hits is destroyed on impact. Unlike in the cartoons, there aren't any arrow shafts pointing back in the direction of the attackers.)

[Dr.Gara]

D&D has no "facing", so you don't know, even roughly, what direction an attack came from. You either can see the attacker or you can't. All characters are assumed to be constantly checking for danger in all directions. Being hit from somewhere while you're turning about is all you know. If you're hit by an invisible attacker you don't even know if it was a melee or ranged attack. (Ammunition which hits is destroyed on impact. Unlike in the cartoons, there aren't any arrow shafts pointing back in the direction of the attackers.)

"Ow! I got stabbed!" "From where?" "I don't know! I just feel bad and have a hole in me!"
No. That's silly. Sure, RAW, you don't know where you got hit from, but who actually plays it that you have no idea where you got stabbed, when you are fully functional. Nope, no bleeding out of the wound, and he has no idea where the hole is.

[Curmudgeon]

"Ow! I got stabbed!" "From where?" "I don't know! I just feel bad and have a hole in me!"
No. That's silly. Sure, RAW, you don't know where you got hit from, but who actually plays it that you have no idea where you got stabbed, when you are fully functional. Nope, no bleeding out of the wound, and he has no idea where the hole is.
You don't know from what direction you got hit; you were twirling around to take into account possible threats from all directions. Sometime in the 6 seconds of the round, while you were twirling around, you got hit. Your attention was on known threats, but you didn't see that particular attacker.

Also, you don't have any holes in you: D&D doesn't have wound locations. You are indeed fully functional — as long as you have positive hit points. If you're going to retain the benefits of an abstract system (100% combat capable when you've lost 199 of your 200 HP, and enemies can't attack your sword arm), you have to retain the disadvantages of the abstraction (no idea of the direction of unseen attackers).

[Dr.Gara]

You don't know from what direction you got hit; you were twirling around to take into account possible threats from all directions. Sometime in the 6 seconds of the round, while you were twirling around, you got hit. Your attention was on known threats, but you didn't see that particular attacker.

Also, you don't have any holes in you: D&D doesn't have wound locations. You are indeed fully functional — as long as you have positive hit points. If you're going to retain the benefits of an abstract system (100% combat capable when you've lost 199 of your 200 HP, and enemies can't attack your sword arm), you have to retain the disadvantages of the abstraction (no idea of the direction of unseen attackers).

Unless I wasn't. And, by your logic of lacking any facing sides, it doesn't matter if you were twirling around, because there's no such thing a different side you could possibly ever face. You can't face any other side. Thus, you cannot twirl. It doesn't hold up to itself.

And what's this about not having a hole in you? And here I was thinking that we had a skill all about mundane healing. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm) Are you trying to say that all characters have a very vague magic that lets them heal vague, placeless damage? So, then, why can't I sneak attack Undead or Constructs, afterall, I'm not actually hitting it in a "vital" point, I'm stabbing it in the Hit Points. Are Hit Points not "vital"... for some creatures?

[Curmudgeon]

And, by your logic of lacking any facing sides, it doesn't matter if you were twirling around, because there's no such thing a different side you could possibly ever face. You can't face any other side. Thus, you cannot twirl.
You've misinterpreted the rules. That "twirling around" is the result of not having facing as a game mechanic, not lacking any facing sides.
Combat Facing

The standard d20 combat rules intentionally ignore the direction a creature faces. The rules assume that creatures are constantly moving and shifting within their spaces, looking in all directions during a fight. That is, character have faces, but those faces are not pointed in any particular direction. To not have facing, the orientation of any character must be undetermined. The only way a character with a face cannot have any particular facing is if they are constantly moving and shifting within their spaces, looking in all directions. Because the rules intentionally ignore which direction a creature faces, it's impossible to have any clue from what direction an attack came other than by seeing the attacker.

[Dr.Gara]

You've misinterpreted the rules. That "twirling around" is the result of not having facing as a game mechanic, not lacking any facing sides. That is, character have faces, but those faces are not pointed in any particular direction. To not have facing, the orientation of any character must be undetermined. The only way a character with a face cannot have any particular facing is if they are constantly moving and shifting within their spaces, looking in all directions. Because the rules intentionally ignore which direction a creature faces, it's impossible to have any clue from what direction an attack came other than by seeing the attacker.

By that logic, am I consistently twirling around, even while flat-footed? What about while I'm asleep, am I twirling there too? And, sure, ruleswise you are perfectly right. I am now going to stop bleeding to death with a bucket of water, because that's equally as rules legal... and equally as ridiculous. Being right within the bounds of RAW doesn't mean much, because in any kind of reality, no, characters are not shifting in circles in every single direction possible. No, you do not stop bleeding out because someone got clever with some water.

And then, I have to go back to my original point on shifting. What about when I'm not shifting? Do characters instantly start shifting around in their square when there's a chance of combat, because the rules said they do... even when every hostile is invisible? In the middle of a surprise round? I think that would be something you notice, when you start uncontrollably turning around and around in your square in circles.

[Curmudgeon]

And then, I have to go back to my original point on shifting. What about when I'm not shifting?
The rules still ignore which direction you face.

[Dr.Gara]

The rules still ignore which direction you face.
The same rules that allow me to stop bleeding because I have a bucket on hand. I acknowledge that. I acknowledge that, yes, the rules are agnostic on what direction I'm facing.
But gameplay, however, is not.

[Adverb]

If anything that there isn't an explicit rule for doesn't exist, then only gnomes have noses.

[Jack_Simth]

D&D has no "facing", so you don't know, even roughly, what direction an attack came from. You either can see the attacker or you can't. All characters are assumed to be constantly checking for danger in all directions. Being hit from somewhere while you're turning about is all you know. If you're hit by an invisible attacker you don't even know if it was a melee or ranged attack. (Ammunition which hits is destroyed on impact. Unlike in the cartoons, there aren't any arrow shafts pointing back in the direction of the attackers.)
Ah Contraire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility):
If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

So if the invisible assailant is using a longspear or some such, then sure.

However, with the bow, there's another issue - most sources of invisibility specify that anything that goes more than a particular distance from you, or that you drop, becomes visible. So yes, that arrows might vanish mysteriously after striking... but you get to see it's flight path.

[Curmudgeon]

So if the invisible assailant is using a longspear or some such, then sure. It's not dependent on the weapon used; only whether the creature has reach greater than 5'. So any Ogre, even if adjacent to you, can't be pinpointed if invisible.

However, with the bow, there's another issue - most sources of invisibility specify that anything that goes more than a particular distance from you, or that you drop, becomes visible. So yes, that arrows might vanish mysteriously after striking... but you get to see it's flight path.
That's only if they're using a source of invisibility. If they've got Hide in Plain Sight they're just visually undetectable rather than invisible — and that applies to their attacks as well.

Good catch on the invisibility citation, though. :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

Well it gives foes a 50% miss chance and it's hard for foes to find your square. Note hard, not a wild guess. You can make listen checks which are usually DC 20 not-actions against anyone engaging in combat. It can be higher if someone really wants to be quiet, but that has the drawback of not engaging in combat. That's something a lot of DMs miss. It also sucks when a foe saves.

It's much better than suggestion because you can often hit 2 targets, though not always.

Other than that I'd say web is way better because it has a larger area and it's pretty good at delaying foes even when they save. Sometimes you don't have two opposing surfaces, but also sometimes foes are immune to glitterdust. Likewise flaming sphere is nicer at low level for the repeated damage. But for a bard glitterdust is a pretty solid choice.

Pathfinder nerfed glitterdust pretty hard, and it really didn't need nerfing. It was only an ok spell before PF touched it. So PF glitterdust is close to useless given all the other options that weren't nerfed and the new spells. In PF I'd pick up gallant inspiration instead. That's the best 2nd level PF bard spell I know. Immediate actions are amazing, creating a hit for allied melee damage as an immediate action is downright nutso. If you run out of spells per day, I'd switch to scroll spamming. Don't mind the cost; you won't find a better item than "hit for allied melee damage every round on top of your regular turn".

[Sith_Happens]

Ah Contraire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility):

Shoddy rules organization strikes again! Seriously, what is it with all these mechanics that get put in both Special Abilities and Conditions, and often some third place too, but with each instance containing some crucial piece of information you won't find in the other(s)?:smallsigh:

[Talya]

Mirror image doesn't make the fight any easier for you and your allies, it just protects you. Very powerful spell, but probably not the best first pick.

Suggestion is power, especially since, assuming spells were balanced (teehee) with the wizard in mind, its a level higher higher than glitterdust. But it only affects one target, and its mind affecting, so its easier to resist. It does however have uses in social encounters, unlike glitterdust. So yeah, its a different spell, but when spells are compared, you are usually talking about the 9th level casters, so glitterdust and suggestion are never in direct comparison.

He said he's a bard. Suggestion is also level 2 for a bard.

[TuggyNE]

Shoddy rules organization strikes again! Seriously, what is it with all these mechanics that get put in both Special Abilities and Conditions, and often some third place too, but with each instance containing some crucial piece of information you won't find in the other(s)?:smallsigh:

I don't know. I'm a little surprised Curmudgeon didn't catch this, but then I didn't either until it was mentioned, so let's just say "knowing all the corners of the rules as printed is Hard" and leave it at that.

Invisibility and incorporeality are probably the two worst offenders in this specific regard (i.e. Special Abilities/Conditions/Types and Subtypes duplication), but there are a lot of others with broadly similar rules duplication. It's especially bad when you have to find implicitly general definitions in e.g. spell text. Or when there's some apparently-general rule that is nothing but a whole bunch of identical specific rules for different cases that unfortunately leave out one or two important edge cases. :smallsigh:

[Anlashok]

I prefer glitterdust over suggestion because blinding people is awesome.

More importantly though I'm not a fan of the niche Suggestion fills. Normally skill-replacer spells are pretty awesome (alter self to replace climb, jump and swim for instance) but Diplomacy happens to be one of the best skills in the game and also the bard's specialty. Doubling up on something you're already amazing at seems less enticing than adding new options. IMO.

[Sith_Happens]

Or when there's some apparently-general rule that is nothing but a whole bunch of identical specific rules for different cases that unfortunately leave out one or two important edge cases. :smallsigh:

Please don't remind me of the time I wanted to know what the Balance DC for an Ice Slick spell is.:smallyuk:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A properly played spellcaster typically attacks an opponent's weakest saves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm). Glitterdust is one of the better Will save-or-suck spells because it hits multiple opponents at once, plus it provides utility in its ability to reveal invisible creatures. When you run into a mixed group of opponents, hitting them all with Glitterdust is usually a safe bet because someone is probably going to fail that save.

Say you cast Glitterdust and hit six opponents, only two of which fail their saves. You spent a single standard action, and one of your spells, in exchange for two opponents being blinded for four rounds. That's two opponents who aren't doing anything productive for four rounds, you've basically spent a standard action to rob the opponents of eight full-round actions collectively. If your party is four characters, you've turned a 4v6 into a 4v4 for four rounds, which should be plenty of time to eliminate two of those opponents. If your party is six characters, you've turned a 6v6 into a 6v4. It helps to even the odds, or it puts your party at an advantage, for a significant amount of time in combat. A lot can happen in four rounds, and having multiple opponents miss out on doing anything useful for four rounds can completely turn a fight around.

Later on you can (Lesser Rod of) Extend it if you don't think it lasts long enough, and/or get a Circlet of Rapid Casting and cast it as a swift action (which won't take any longer to cast with metamagic as that only applies to standard-action or longer casting times) so you're not even spending your standard actions to rob the opponents of multiple rounds.

[CrazyYanmega]

I'd like to note here that a 4th-level Bard gets TWO 2nd-level spells known (unlike his poor Sorcerer buddy who's stuck with 1). Why not pick both?

EDIT: Scratch that, I forgot that Alter Self exists. Alter Self and Glitterdust it is.

I'm a sparrow hengeyoukai with Disguise Self. I can already make a +24 Disguise check. And I already discussed with my group that I'm gonna be getting Insidious Rhythm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyKiQwPrQ9c)to interfere with enemy casters and mess with the players at the table.

[da_chicken]

Glitterdust is a fantastic spell, but the big drawback is that it's an area effect spell. It's a 10 foot radius effect. At low level, that encompasses the entire battlefield in a lot of cases, and at low level the strategy for a large number of characters is "close to melee range". That means unless you win initiative, you're hitting party members with the effect. The last thing you want to do is blind the fighter and rogue and watch the ogres make their save.

Personally, I'd go with suggestion early on. It has so many more uses for a Bard than mere combat, although that usually requires the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick from Complete Scoundrel. Fascinate seems too narrow to ever work for me, though.

[CrazyYanmega]

I've chosen Glitterdust to help the party with melee combatants, and Insidious Rhythm to deal with casters. I'll either take Suggestion or Blindness/Deafness next level.

[Boci]

I've chosen Glitterdust to help the party with melee combatants, and Insidious Rhythm to deal with casters. I'll either take Suggestion or Blindness/Deafness next level.

Take suggestion. Blindness/Deafness is a pretty weak spell.

[Jack_Simth]

It's not dependent on the weapon used; only whether the creature has reach greater than 5'. So any Ogre, even if adjacent to you, can't be pinpointed if invisible.

I was including that as part of "or some such". Humanoids with class levels to cause (or use items of) Invisibility is (at least at the gaming tables I've visited) more common than monsters doing the same.


That's only if they're using a source of invisibility. If they've got Hide in Plain Sight they're just visually undetectable rather than invisible — and that applies to their attacks as well.

True, but then they hit the rather large (but able to be overcome) sniping penalties; per the Hide Skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm)
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Ironically, the hide penalty for sniping happens to match the hide bonus for being invisible....


Good catch on the invisibility citation, though. :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

Note that, even if your opponent has reach, you still learn their "general location". While that term isn't precisely defined, it's probably close enough that you at least have a decent chance of catching them in a Dust.

And even with hidden attackers using ranged weapons, you're still likely to have a decent chance to guess where they are, just from circumstantial cues. Have you already secured some areas of the battlefield? Is there any obvious source of concealment that someone could be hiding behind? If you were going to try to ambush someone here, where would you hide?

[ericgrau]

Invisibility doesn't come up much until high level. By then you carry 1 or more scrolls of see invisibility or if you can spare it you learn the spell. Then you glitterdust round 2 so your allies can find the foe, or take him out yourself. There are ways to guess where an invisible foe is, but your odds aren't great with a mere 10 foot radius spell when there's only 1 invisible foe as there often is. After 2-3 guesses, the damage is already done.

[Vortenger]

Someone arguing rules with Curmudgeon? What is this website coming to? :smalleek:

[Shinken]

Someone arguing rules with Curmudgeon? What is this website coming to? :smalleek:

Someone actually catching something Curmudgeon missed?! I'm... I... I don't know. I think I'm going to be sick.

[Vertharrad]

To give you an idea of how useful/powerful glitterdust is. Me and my 16th lvl party were travelling through Rappan Athuk and we had a encounter that included a group of Illithids one of which was a sorcerer could cast greater invisibility. After dropping a circle of death(one of the only AoE's my necro had that wouldn't hurt the party) the invised Illithid brain grappled our bard. I was combing my spell list and items looking for a spell to help when I came upon glitterdust(which I had down because why not I just picked a low level spell at random to fill that spot). I cast glitterdust lighting up the invised Illithid, our mnk/rog Zalan went to town(full attack stunning fist which worked and between hitting and SA dice) and the Illithid went from full hp to dead...in 1 full attack and 1 spell. We saved our bard and defeated a CR17 iirc. I gained an appreciation of glitterdust that day.

[Arc_knight25]

I have a lvl 15 Magus in our PF game and I have to say that Glitterdust is one of my go to's for combat. My Int(26) is through the roof so my dc is 20. You get that on something with a low will save they won't be making that will save anytime soon.

PF has a save every round on the blindness. That was the nerf they gave it from 3.5.

[andreww]

Take suggestion. Blindness/Deafness is a pretty weak spell.
Suggestion is more versatile but blindness is an excellent spell for screwing over arcane casters and rogue types.

[andreww]

I have a lvl 15 Magus in our PF game and I have to say that Glitterdust is one of my go to's for combat. My Int(26) is through the roof so my dc is 20. You get that on something with a low will save they won't be making that will save anytime soon.

PF has a save every round on the blindness. That was the nerf they gave it from 3.5.
If you haven't already then invest in Persistent Spell. Forcing multiple saves every time is a huge increase in the likelihood of landing glitterdust and keeping it on them.

[Lord Vukodlak]

If you haven't already then invest in Persistent Spell. Forcing multiple saves every time is a huge increase in the likelihood of landing glitterdust and keeping it on them.

Folks so there is no confusion this is Pathfinder's persistent spell (http://paizo.com/PRD/advanced/advancedFeats.html#persistent-spell) not to be confused with 3.5's persistent spell which effects duration.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm a sparrow hengeyoukai with Disguise Self. I can already make a +24 Disguise check. And I already discussed with my group that I'm gonna be getting Insidious Rhythm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyKiQwPrQ9c)to interfere with enemy casters and mess with the players at the table.

You are missing the purpose of Alter Self!

The purpose of Alter Self is to dumpster dive every MM in existence and find the 5 HD creature with your type and something you want from the following list: Mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

Extra attacks (you don't get them for extra limbs, but you do get bite), movement modes, armor class, bonus feats, racial skill bonuses!

If you want to be disguised as something then you alter self and then disguise, but alter self isn't Disguise Self, that's a lower level different spell

[ericgrau]

I have a lvl 15 Magus in our PF game and I have to say that Glitterdust is one of my go to's for combat. My Int(26) is through the roof so my dc is 20. You get that on something with a low will save they won't be making that will save anytime soon.

PF has a save every round on the blindness. That was the nerf they gave it from 3.5.

I couldn't find a MM1 monster with less than a +13 will save without SR or blind fight or outright immunity or some such.... Maybe your DM is using low CR foes or things with low saves from having class levels with poor gear.

But that's to be expected at level 15. It's better at low level. Persistent spell is a good idea. Though so many things have SR you really want SR no spells by level 15. In PF I wouldn't use glitterdust at all, that save every round is a killer. Though not if you're against easy foes that can never make their save against anything.

[Zirconia]

I couldn't find a MM1 monster with less than a +13 will save without SR or blind fight or outright immunity or some such.... Maybe your DM is using low CR foes or things with low saves from having class levels with poor gear.

As a note, at least in D&D 3.5, Glitterdust is SR: No, so you don't have to worry about Spell Resistance. Also the Blindfight feat only works effectively in melee, the blinded ranged attacker is still in fairly deep trouble trying to hit you, and you still have bonuses against the blinded Blindfight feat user if you attack THEM at range. Thus it is still, IMHO, one of the few offensive 2nd level spells you may still be using at high levels.

[CrazyYanmega]

You are missing the purpose of Alter Self!

The purpose of Alter Self is to dumpster dive every MM in existence and find the 5 HD creature with your type and something you want from the following list: Mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

Extra attacks (you don't get them for extra limbs, but you do get bite), movement modes, armor class, bonus feats, racial skill bonuses!

If you want to be disguised as something then you alter self and then disguise, but alter self isn't Disguise Self, that's a lower level different spell
Wait, so Alter Self is basically a Super Wildshape? The heck?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wait, so Alter Self is basically a Super Wildshape? The heck?

Alter Self Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0)

If you're a nonhuman, you can Alter Self into a human and get the extra feat and skill points. That feat can be spent to make something a class-skill (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0) so you can use the skill points to put max ranks in it, otherwise get Skill Focus or similar. That's a 2nd level spell which allows you to make checks with any one skill at maximum proficiency as often as you want throughout its duration.

[Psyren]

Suggestion causes arguments at the table and Glitterdust does not. It's really that simple for me.

[nedz]

If you're a nonhuman, you can Alter Self into a human and get the extra feat and skill points. That feat can be spent to make something a class-skill (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0) so you can use the skill points to put max ranks in it, otherwise get Skill Focus or similar. That's a 2nd level spell which allows you to make checks with any one skill at maximum proficiency as often as you want throughout its duration.

By that argument though a Human casting Alter Self into an Elf, say, loses their Bonus feat.

[Curmudgeon]

Alter Self Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0)

If you're a nonhuman, you can Alter Self into a human and get the extra feat and skill points.
The Human level 1 racial bonus feat is available if you assume Human form (or lost if you started as Human); however, skill points are not included in the benefit of Alter Self; only "racial skill bonuses" are. There is no necessary connection between skill points and skill bonuses except as a function of existing skill ranks and class levels. (For instance, every Human bonus skill point could be spent on a different cross-class skill, yielding ½ rank in each and no change to any skill bonuses. Alter Self provides only racial (not class) benefits, so you cannot assume any class-dependent allotment of skill points.)

[ericgrau]

As a note, at least in D&D 3.5, Glitterdust is SR: No, so you don't have to worry about Spell Resistance. Also the Blindfight feat only works effectively in melee, the blinded ranged attacker is still in fairly deep trouble trying to hit you, and you still have bonuses against the blinded Blindfight feat user if you attack THEM at range. Thus it is still, IMHO, one of the few offensive 2nd level spells you may still be using at high levels.

Weird, that's the first obviously magical direct core spell I've noticed that's SR no. Good to know. Then IIRC the lowest save that wasn't outright immune was around a +8 or +9. There might have been one +6 with blind fight. All the things with blind fight were melee, why else would they have the feat? That leaves about half of foes that aren't that affected. And the remaining half have about a 50:50 change to save. 75% by round 2 in PF, 87.5% by round 3, etc.

[Curmudgeon]

The biggest advantage of Glitterdust is that the afflictions and remedies are asymmetrical. You can make enemies blind with a level 2 spell, but it takes a level 3 spell to fix that condition. Remove Blindness/Deafness is level 3 (for Clerics and Paladins). Blacklight is level 3 (for Sorcerers/Wizards and Clerics with the Blackness domain); it would arguably overcome the blindness, but only in the affected area.
You create an area of total darkness. The darkness is impenetrable to normal vision and darkvision, but you can see normally within the blacklit area. As for the -40 to Hide, that can also be counteracted but requires both Invisibility and remaining immobile. :smallannoyed:

The only straightforward counter is Dispel Magic, a level 3 (or 4 for Druids) spell, which might fail with a bad roll for the dispel check. Essentially, the game gives Glitterdust an unopposed advantage for 2 levels. You can mitigate its effects by keeping party members more than 20' away from each other and out of sight as much as possible, but that's not always practical.

[Phelix-Mu]

I also find it interesting that it is such a low-level fix to a problem that DMs really have to be careful at throwing at low-level parties. Invisible opponents can be tpks at low level if the party isn't prepared at all. Versus if they have the defenses/glitterdust/flour bags, and then most enemies with invisibility (barring enemy casters) are probably not that hard to beat once they lose their invisibility.

In short, even if all it did was counter invisibility, glitterdust is either mandatory or useless. But, since it does way more than just counter invisibility, it's never useless, and furthermore can be total win in a fairly wide variety of situations.

I also want to note that this was grandfathered in from earlier editions, where it was also quite impressive, IIRC.

[ericgrau]

You can also make easy listen checks.

I was in the reverse situation where in the big long boss fight myself and another had managed to greater invisibility the entire back line. Which I pointed out when the BBEG broke through the melee and charged the back row. The DM didn't want the BBEG to be so helpless so on the spot he gave the BBEG's major artifact and macguffin an ability to overcome the invisibility half the time. Which is exactly what a listen check would have done had the DM known. A lot of the game destroying effects from lack of vision come from not knowing the rules well.

As for stopping invisibility with glitterdust, I've never seen it work well. As soon as you're in a 40 foot or wider space, which is only 8 inches on a battle mat, you tend to miss. I like to carry a 150 gp scroll of see invisibility which I save for the one invisible foe fight. Maybe 2 scrolls if I expect more.

[AnonymousPepper]

The short answer to the OP - without having read the rest of the thread because I'm tired and lazy - is that Glitterdust + Haste + a rogue in the party = bad times for any enemy that doesn't have crit protection.