It's A Trap! Things to Avoid.

[Element Zero]

A lot of people spend a lot of time and a lot of text describing what is good and why. I'm curious about the opposite.

What are some feats, PrCs, class/race combos, anything that are widely considered to be AWFUL, and why? I just want to see what everyone thinks are the best things to avoid.

[Ohiohi]

Monk. :biggrin:

[Gnaeus]

Monk
Fighter
Vow of Poverty
Reaping Mauler.

Why? They focus on elements of the game that are not themselves necessary (defense and speed for the monk, base numbers for VoP and fighter, grappling for the mauler) and then they execute them badly. (casters are faster and more survivable than monks, lots of things do more damage than fighters, items are better than VoP, and mauler doesn't help in grapples without unusual optimization).

[Element Zero]

Monk
Fighter
Vow of Poverty
Reaping Mauler.

Fist time I've seen someone mention Vow of Poverty as bad. I'm not disputing your claim, but I'd like to know the thought process behind it. :smallsmile:

[LTwerewolf]

Fist time I've seen someone mention Vow of Poverty as bad. I'm not disputing your claim, but I'd like to know the thought process behind it. :smallsmile:

You must not hang around here often. The only build i've ever head of it being ok in includes forsaker.

[Element Zero]

You must not hang around here often.

Not as often as I'd like, no, and until recently didn't know that Monk was considered "bad" either. In my usual play group, Vow of Poverty is banned because almost everyone thinks it's too -good-, and is therefore broken. I'm not one of those people, and would actually like some articulate words to back up my argument. Mostly I just grunt and shake my head in denial of their spurious claims.

[Endril]

Samurai [because intimidate is terrible (because you're burning actions to give them -2, assuming they fail the roll, and assuming they're not immune)]

Half-Elf (because their lack of ability increase or bonus feat makes them strictly worse that human/elf imo, unless you use a supplemental book to improve them, then I still think they're worse)

This list could be long... longer than a list of good class/feat/race/etc. I like to look at all the class/build handbooks people post online, and you'll often find the terrible abilities in black and the good ones in blue. Then there's the obvious bad choices... a kobold, with its smaller size and strength penalty, would make a terrible barbarian (unless it uses an ability from the serpent kingdom that should have never been printed in combination with some other poorly worded abilities to make its strength arbritrarily high... don't get me started on that).

[Hamste]

Tier ones can use vop as well (excluding ones that require expensive items to function).

Also Monkey grip

[ben-zayb]

Tempest.
Truenamer.
Soulborn.

[ChocoSuisse]

Almost all races with racial HD and/or LA.

They might be fun to play with because "RAWR IMMA RAKSHASA!" , but they're weak.

[Hyena]

Vow of powerty is bad, because everything it gets for you is absolutely overshadowed by everything WBL gives you.

[Endril]

I'm assuming people think vow of poverty is under powered because you can always buy items that give you much better bonuses than the feat does. I'm assuming some people think it's overpowered because of its synergy with classes that don't use gear, such as monk. I don't think it's strong enough to ban, even when used that way (since they're no better off than they would be with magic items), but I don't think it belongs on this list either, as long as it's used with synergy. I don't see it as much of a hindrance to spellcasters either, since the ac bonus is better than braces of armor, and they can still cast spells on themselves. A martial spellcaster with antimagic field could make good use of this too, as most of those abilities (aside from ac and dr) are (ex), meaning you get your ability increases, natural armor, freedom of movement, etc, and your opponent gets nothing supernatural/magic.

[ben-zayb]

I'm assuming people think vow of poverty is under powered because you can always buy items that give you much better bonuses than the feat does. I'm assuming some people think it's overpowered because of its synergy with classes that don't use gear, such as monk. I don't think it's strong enough to ban, even when used that way (since they're no better off than they would be with magic items), but I don't think it belongs on this list either, as long as it's used with synergy. I don't see it as much of a hindrance to spellcasters either, since the ac bonus is better than braces of armor, and they can still cast spells on themselves. A martial spellcaster with antimagic field could make good use of this too, as most of those abilities (aside from ac and dr) are (ex), meaning you get your ability increases, natural armor, freedom of movement, etc, and your opponent gets nothing supernatural/magic.
Monks being nonrelianf to items is a myth. They are in fact the most one of the most item dependent class.

[Hecuba]

Fist time I've seen someone mention Vow of Poverty as bad. I'm not disputing your claim, but I'd like to know the thought process behind it. :smallsmile:

The short answer:

All the bonuses look shiny, but stack up poorly in comparison to what would can get with standard wealth by level.
The bonus exalted feats look shiny too, but there aren't actually that many exalted feats worth their salt.
As written, you can't have things like holy symbols, spellbooks, and expensive spell focuses.

It is only really worth taking if you are already going to be very substantially below standard wealth by level (either because your DM is stingy or because you character is going to give away their gold even if they don't get bonuses from it).

For the long answer, search for a thread on the topic: there are many.

[Element Zero]

Samurai [because intimidate is terrible (because you're burning actions to give them -2, assuming they fail the roll, and assuming they're not immune)]


-This- is the kind of logic I'm looking for! :smallsmile: Also, I suppose I should have clarified my intention. I want to find the things that either aren't obviously bad or could be taken by unwary new people thinking they are optimizing.

[WinWin]

VoP causes RP issues; they get a share of treasue, which they are expected to then give away. Some players take issue with that, especially if they have to dig into their own pockets or resources to aid the VoP character (by providing them with spells, healing, shelter or practically any other resource). Some players take it in stride, but I personally know a player that relished telling a VoP character to "go sleep in the ####ing barn, you ####ing hobo, I'm not paying for your room."

The utility of VoP is questionable. If you have a tight DM that does not hand out much treasure from adventuring, then VoP is attractive. If your group getting at least the minimum amount of Wealth By Level, according to the table in the DMG, then VoP actually makes you worse off after a few levels, and you paid 2 feats for the privellage of being worse off. How much worse off depends on the class you are playing; spellcasters tend to suffer much less than melee classes.

[Fouredged Sword]

The only Vow worth taking is Vow of Non-Violence, and only on the right class chassis, like beguiler who wants diplomacy and deals non-lethal damage all the time anyway. All others are bad, ether not worth the feat or giving up too much for it.

[Inevitability]

Actually, there isn't a lot truly bad stuff, as almost everything has it's niches.
Unless you are defining 'bad' as 'completely overshadowed by something else', every single feat, class, race or ACF can be useful.

You want to play a commoner? Sure, just create your own dinosaur army.
You want to play a truenamer? With proper optimization, you are a bad warlock... And then you suddenly get gate at-will.
You want to play a Half-Elf? Lucky you, they get some godly bard substitution levels.

[Garonak]

Frenzied Berserker, perhaps not mechanically, but fluff: "Hi, I'm a warrior who goes berserk in combat, loses all control and might attack my allies, can I join you guys?".

[Fouredged Sword]

The mechanics of FB is pretty bad as well. Getting set off by stepping on a caltrop and instagibbing the rogue isn't my idea of useful.

[Dr. Cliché]

With regard to Vow of Poverty, has anyone used it on NPCs or Villains?

[Zombulian]

I'm the type of person who plays low tiers as a sort of optimization challenge. The thing is, not everything is necessarily bad. Because you can generally get any class to do something well. The issue is that doing it with lower tiers generally limits you to that one trick you chose. Whether it's damage (Barbarian), Intimidate (Samurai with Imperious Command), or healing (any caster optimizing healing).

As for the name of the thread, I would count both Rogue and Healing optimization to be traps. Healing in D&D is pretty terrible, as generally the best way to make sure you don't die is to prevent damage in the first place or to kill the thing doing damage quickly (preferably both). For Rogues... well Factotums are basically the same class but better.

[Element Zero]

instagibbing


I just wanted to point out how much I love this word and will from now on be using it in my regular vocabulary.

As for using VoP on NPCs...nope, can't say that I have. I tend to think of NPCs in terms of Bad Guys (caps on purpose) rather than allies or teammates, which is something I should probably correct. Then again, a Good aligned NPC with VoP as a Bad Guy probably would be fun.

Also, someone up above me there mentioned Tempest as being bad, which I have a hard time seeing. Then again, I usually pair it with Dervish and Swashbuckler, so...yeah. That seems to flow just right.

[Inevitability]

Give the tarrasque the celestial creature template, then give it VoP. :smallbiggrin:

[Zombulian]

I just wanted to point out how much I love this word and will from now on be using it in my regular vocabulary.

As for using VoP on NPCs...nope, can't say that I have. I tend to think of NPCs in terms of Bad Guys (caps on purpose) rather than allies or teammates, which is something I should probably correct. Then again, a Good aligned NPC with VoP as a Bad Guy probably would be fun.

Also, someone up above me there mentioned Tempest as being bad, which I have a hard time seeing. Then again, I usually pair it with Dervish and Swashbuckler, so...yeah. That seems to flow just right.

For Tempest I'd say the issue is that it has a very heavy feat tax for very lackluster abilities. I get pairing it with Dervish I suppose, but even then it's not great.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Fist time I've seen someone mention Vow of Poverty as bad. I'm not disputing your claim, but I'd like to know the thought process behind it. :smallsmile:
If I remember correctly, the pure numerical bonuses approximate what you can get through gear, but VoP leaves you no way of gaining abilities beyond those from your class and feats. No Wings of Flight, no Anklets of Translocation, no Bags of Holding, no skill boosting items... heck, no wands or scrolls, even. The less your class can do in isolation, the worse the feat becomes. So it's OK for a Druid* (who's got two ways of doing whatever he needs to do, spells and wild shape), passable for someone like a Warlock (can pick up a decent number of things through invocations), and crap for someone like a Monk (can punch things and not much else).

*On heavy shapeshifters (Druids and Wildshape Rangers), it actually gets a lot better than normal, as it saves you the trouble and expense of getting gear that transforms with you. Incarnum characters are in a similar boat-- they get a wide range of effects organically, and magic items often conflict with their soulmelds.

Anyway, what hasn't been mentioned...

Truenamers (requires serious optimization to use their abilities; terribly editing makes things really vague)
Almost all the PrCs in the DMG that don't advance casting (Duelist, Dwarven Defender, and so on. Horizon Walker and Shadow Dancer are OK, though)
Any caster PrC that misses more than two or three spellcasting levels, as a general rule.

[John Longarrow]

Playing any optimized build you find on line without understanding how it works/why it works/what its weaknesses are.

I've met too many people who try to run with someone elses build that can't figure out why it won't work for THEM.

Take chargers who want to go after goblins who are hiding in difficult terrain...

Or the Druid "Grappler" who can't figure out why ranged combatants don't come close...

[Ravens_cry]

I'm the type of person who plays low tiers as a sorr of optimization challenge. The thing is, not everything is necessarily bad. Because you can generally get any class to do something well. The issue is that doing it with lower tiers generally limits you to that one trick you chose. Whether it's damage (Barbarian), Intimidate (Samurai with Imperious Command), or healing (any caster optimizing healing).

As for the name of the thread, I would count both Rogue and Healing optimization to be traps. Healing in D&D is pretty terrible, as generally the best way to make sure you don't die is to prevent damage in the first place or to kill the thing doing damage quickly (preferably both). For Rogues... well Factotums are basically the same class but better.
I don't really like Factotums. Their really is no soul or centre that the class is built around, they just feel like a conglomeration of abilities. Even Barbarian has that, and Rogue certainly, it's your Sneaky, Skilly, Stabby, Kill You in Your Sleep™ Medicine©

[Zombulian]

I don't really like Factotums. Their really is no soul or centre that the class is built around, they just feel like a conglomeration of abilities. Even Barbarian has that, and Rogue certainly, it's your Sneaky, Skilly, Stabby, Kill You in Your Sleep™ Medicine©

Well see, the way I see Factotum is that you can build it in certain ways to do certain things. So you can be the Factotum/Chameleon who does everything. Or you can be the Sneaky, Skilly, Stabby type, and much more.

[Ansem]

Monks being nonrelianf to items is a myth. They are in fact the most one of the most item dependent class.

This, it can't be emphasized enough.

[Ravens_cry]

Well see, the way I see Factotum is that you can build it in certain ways to do certain things. So you can be the Factotum/Chameleon who does everything. Or you can be the Sneaky, Skilly, Stabby type, and much more.
You can, certainly, but that's rather missing my point of contention. I feel like Factotum is a like a big box store, so diverse as to be bland.
Moreover, some of us suffer from paralysis of choice, so being able to do so much isn't always a good thing.

[Element Zero]

This, it can't be emphasized enough.

I agree. Monks being free of item dependency is a fallacy I've tried to correct in my playgroup. The ability to add enchantments to you strikes, alone, is enough to make me raise my eyebrows when looking over the class. Sure, I can make him hit with magic/silver/adamantine fists or whatever, but I can't have, say, a +2 Keen Defending Flaming Burst Foot. Not that I'm aware of, anyway, outside of Pathfinder.

[Zombulian]

I agree. Monks being free of item dependency is a fallacy I've tried to correct in my playgroup. The ability to add enchantments to you strikes, alone, is enough to make me raise my eyebrows when looking over the class. Sure, I can make him hit with magic/silver/adamantine fists or whatever, but I can't have, say, a +2 Keen Defending Flaming Burst Foot. Not that I'm aware of, anyway, outside of Pathfinder.

You arguably can. Unarmed Strikes are treated as both Natural Weapons and Manufactured Weapons, so some say you can enchant them. Even if you can't, if you buy an Amulet of Natural Attacks, you can enchant that. Or you can buy a Scorpion Kama (can flurry with it and does your UA damage) and enchant that.

Edit: may have misunderstood the meaning of your post, but I'll leave my own how it is I guess.

[Chronos]

Monkey Grip. Wielding an oversized weapon will usually only give you, on average, about 2.5-4 extra damage (depending on whether the weapon is one-handed or two-handed). And you're taking a -2 to attack to get that, even with the feat. But you could have gotten that same amount of extra damage from Power Attack, plus that gives you the option to trade in more or less attack for damage depending on the situation, plus it's a prerequisite for a bunch of other good things, and you'll have a lot easier time finding an appropriate-sized weapon.

Now, increasing weapon size can be good if you're increasing it by a whole bunch of steps, not just one. But Money Grip still isn't worthwhile there, since it doesn't end up stacking with most of those.

[Zombulian]

Monkey Grip. Wielding an oversized weapon will usually only give you, on average, about 2.5-4 extra damage (depending on whether the weapon is one-handed or two-handed). And you're taking a -2 to attack to get that, even with the feat. But you could have gotten that same amount of extra damage from Power Attack, plus that gives you the option to trade in more or less attack for damage depending on the situation, plus it's a prerequisite for a bunch of other good things, and you'll have a lot easier time finding an appropriate-sized weapon.

Now, increasing weapon size can be good if you're increasing it by a whole bunch of steps, not just one. But Money Grip still isn't worthwhile there, since it doesn't end up stacking with most of those.

I have a lot of trouble convincing my friends that Monkey Grip is as terrible as it is. I think they just like the idea of being Cloud from Final Fantasy a little too much.

[Graypairofsocks]

Almost all races with racial HD and/or LA.

They might be fun to play with because "RAWR IMMA RAKSHASA!" , but they're weak.

I heard that WotC tended to go overboard on the LA.

[Element Zero]

I have a lot of trouble convincing my friends that Monkey Grip is as terrible as it is. I think they just like the idea of being Cloud from Final Fantasy a little too much.

Same. We had a lot of guys pulling Fullblades with this. We once even had a guy playing a 90-pound elf Warmage with Monkey Grip, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and two Fullblades. It was...patently ridiculous.

[Zombulian]

Same. We had a lot of guys pulling Fullblades with this. We once even had a guy playing a 90-pound elf Warmage with Monkey Grip, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and two Fullblades. It was...patently ridiculous.

Well for that image it's almost worth it. :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Same. We had a lot of guys pulling Fullblades with this. We once even had a guy playing a 90-pound elf Warmage with Monkey Grip, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and two Fullblades. It was...patently ridiculous.
Their character's name wasn't Cirrus, Stratocumulus, or something like that, was it?
Or even just the general term.:smalltongue:

[Telonius]

The Master of Masks PrC - for anything more than a level or (at most) two. There are a couple of decent masks - Assassin and Faceless - but the really awesome one is the Gladiator mask. Proficiency in pretty much everything.

But if you're going into MoM, you're most likely entering it as either a Bard or a Rogue. If you're a Bard, it does not advance Bardic Music, and it only advances 4/10 spellcasting levels. If you're a Rogue, it's 4+Int skill point. The list of class skills is godawful, and doesn't include Tumble, Search, Disable Device, or UMD. The Gladiator mask (and maybe the Assassin mask) might be worth two levels. They aren't worth more than that.

EDIT: I think it really is a shame that the PrC turned out as badly as it did. I love the idea, love a couple of the masks ... it's so awesomely flavorful and front-loaded with some genuinely nice things, that you could be five or six levels in before you realize what's happened.

[Big Fau]

If I remember correctly, the pure numerical bonuses approximate what you can get through gear, but VoP leaves you no way of gaining abilities beyond those from your class and feats. No Wings of Flight, no Anklets of Translocation, no Bags of Holding, no skill boosting items... heck, no wands or scrolls, even. The less your class can do in isolation, the worse the feat becomes. So it's OK for a Druid* (who's got two ways of doing whatever he needs to do, spells and wild shape), passable for someone like a Warlock (can pick up a decent number of things through invocations), and crap for someone like a Monk (can punch things and not much else).
[/LIST]

VoP's bonuses aren't comparable to gear. The ability enhancements fall short of a +6 Belt of Magnificence (which absolutely no class in the game needs) and a single +5 Tome/Manual (which every class needs). The AC boost is comparable to +2 Full Plate (something available from 6th level onward, and something which VoP users don't get until 17th level), the Deflection bonus is +3 at 20th level (2 points lower), the Resistance bonus to saves is likewise shorted, the Natural Armor is a measly +2 (+5 is easy to get, and you can have higher), the energy resistances are half of what you could have, the Freedom of Movement comes online later than you need it, and the Exalted Strike is slow as hell for a mere +5.


Same. We had a lot of guys pulling Fullblades with this. We once even had a guy playing a 90-pound elf Warmage with Monkey Grip, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and two Fullblades. It was...patently ridiculous.

Monkey Grip expressly prohibits using oversized weapons in your off-hand, and OTWF only reduces the penalties for using a one-handed weapon in your off-hand (it does not allow you to use Monkey Grip on your off-hand).

[Element Zero]

Monkey Grip expressly prohibits using oversized weapons in your off-hand, and OTWF only reduces the penalties for using a one-handed weapon in your off-hand (it does not allow you to use Monkey Grip on your off-hand).

This was a -very- long time ago, and we didn't do intelligent things like "read the entire feat" or "pay attention when other people are making stupid characters". We also made use of third party material pretty heavily at the time, and it's possible he had snagged something from there to balance out...but it's highly unlikely.

As for Master of Masks...I've never really read it. I looked at the skills and caster levels and turned the page with a sigh and a shake of my head.

[PsyBomb]

I played a VoP Gnome Fighter on a bet once... didn't last long, but he was hilarious.

Anyway, on topic, the fact that most Vows suck has been commented on. People see them as a way to get bonuses for trivial RP requirements, but fail to remember that they are still FEATS. The only place I've ever used them successfully (read: being worth the slot) were on my VoP builds (3 over the years)

The Skill Boost feats (Acrobatic and the like) are also prime examples here. Even in their buffed form from Pathfinder they are only rarely worth taking a feat for outside of prerequisites (and that's in a system with 50% more feats available).

The Invulnerability armor enchantment is a big standout to me, providing a scrawny DR 5 and then having the gall to make it /MAGIC, and it's a +3. The Spell Resistance armor enchantments are, if anything, even more worthless. Especially for the +5 version, which gives only SR 19.

[Dr. Cliché]

The Invulnerability armor enchantment is a big standout to me, providing a scrawny DR 5 and then having the gall to make it /MAGIC, and it's a +3.

DRX/Magic always depresses me - regardless of its value or what it's on.

I find that it just becomes useless far too quickly.

I guess it might occasionally be useful for story purposes (e.g. why the local militia or whatever is having problems with a particular creature), but it would be nice if it was a bit more effective against adventuring parties too.

[torrasque666]

For a DM, Gestalt games.

[Shining Wrath]

Tower Shield. Cover is nice, +4 AC is OK, but that shield is just too much trouble.

Great Cleave. You really won't have too many times you drop multiple enemies in a round.

Reserve feats except the elemental summoning one. Usually not worth a feat.

[Dr. Cliché]

Tower Shield. Cover is nice, +4 AC is OK, but that shield is just too much trouble.


Nah, just hide behind it to grant yourself and all your possessions - including the shield - cover. :smallwink:

[Eldest]

Tower Shield. Cover is nice, +4 AC is OK, but that shield is just too much trouble.

I have a psion with one and a flying carpet. Has yet to get hit in combat, mostly due to a dominated enemy-turned-really-long-term-minion who gives them both full cover vs the worst threat.

[T.G. Oskar]

Reserve feats except the elemental summoning one. Usually not worth a feat.

You mean the ones on Complete Mage, right? The reserve feats in Complete Champion are somewhat better, what with Touch of Healing being one of the most sought-after (despite healing only up to half your HP, it saves resources like nothing), and if you happen to gain access to the War domain, you can get Holy Warrior for extra damage so as long as you don't expend your highest level War domain spell. Charnel Miasma is also pretty interesting, as it can either shaken or panic a character for 1 minute, the latter being what nearly all Imperious Command builds strive for.

Even the ones in Complete Mage can be decent on the right build: Blade of Force and Minor Shapeshift come to mind for gish builds, for example.

[deuxhero]

Vow of powerty is bad, because everything it gets for you is absolutely overshadowed by everything WBL gives you.

Yep. Only possible thing improved is a wild shape druid who doesn't have MIC access and loses a lot of magic items benefits in wildshape, and that's STILL questionable.

[ben-zayb]

You mean the ones on Complete Mage, right? The reserve feats in Complete Champion are somewhat better, what with Touch of Healing being one of the most sought-after (despite healing only up to half your HP, it saves resources like nothing), and if you happen to gain access to the War domain, you can get Holy Warrior for extra damage so as long as you don't expend your highest level War domain spell. Charnel Miasma is also pretty interesting, as it can either shaken or panic a character for 1 minute, the latter being what nearly all Imperious Command builds strive for.

Even the ones in Complete Mage can be decent on the right build: Blade of Force and Minor Shapeshift come to mind for gish builds, for example.Acidic Splatter also means you're now a warlock with a legit spellcasting in place of limited invocations and the nasty SR check for your "Eldritch Blast".

[Hurnn]

I think VoP gets a bad rap here because it is always assumed you will always be able to obtain every item you want that is the best fit for you at your level and build at all times form lvl 1-20. In actual practice it is not bad on a couple of classes especially where magic treasure is random and magic marts are limited either in availability and or cost of said items. I think that a sorcerer druid and warlock (possibly some others) could all do better than average taking it in the above scenario.

[nedz]

Reserve feats except the elemental summoning one. Usually not worth a feat.

I quite like Dimensional Jaunt, on the right character.

[Ravens_cry]

Yep. Only possible thing improved is a wild shape druid who doesn't have MIC access and loses a lot of magic items benefits in wildshape, and that's STILL questionable.
The thing is though, it's better than taking a vow of poverty in-character and getting, well, nothing at all. The idea is to allow an ascetic character concept to even be marginally workable. The trouble is that it assumes a certain level of optimization, while games in actual play can go above or below it.

[da_chicken]

Fist time I've seen someone mention Vow of Poverty as bad. I'm not disputing your claim, but I'd like to know the thought process behind it. :smallsmile:

It basically amounts to this question:

Does your DM follow Wealth By Level (WBL)? If the answer is yes, then Vow of Poverty is not worth it. You can get better abilities buying your own gear. If the answer is no, then Vow of Poverty is worthwhile... but IMX DMs that don't follow WBL also don't allow VoP because it's "way too good". If I remember right, VoP works out to about 70% of WBL through level 10 or so, and after that drops even faster. It simply doesn't keep up with real magic items from wealth.

Other traps I can think of:
Monk -- Simply put, they need too many things to be playable. Requires too many good ability scores and should have had full BAB.

Fighter -- Just not well designed. The same class could be given feats every level and would still probably not be worth it. Class abilities are better than feats, and you get class abilities faster than this class gets feats! Feats are less flexible, too.

Healer and Warmage are both traps. They're too narrow, especially the healer. The healer isn't even the best at healing!

Half-Elves -- No abilities make up for what you lost from not being Human or Elven instead.

Pretty much all the DMG Prestige Classes. Only Loremaster and Archmage are decent, and those have pretty steep requirements.

Any Prestige Class that doesn't have full caster progression is very probably, almost certainly a trap.

Whirlwind Attack feat chain. Too much investment for too little return.

Heavy Armor is nearly a trap.

The vast majority of Level Adjusted races. Every race LA +2 or higher is not worth it, and most LA +1 are not worth it either. The only time we've ever run high LA races is when everybody did, and then we all just ignored the LA.

It really depends how you play the game, too. These boards are heavily slanted towards optimization, and people here don't seem to have a problem with grabbing a half dozen prestige classes to get a few abilities that show up low on the progression chart and skipping out. If you don't see a problem with playing a Wizard/Mage of the Arcane Order/Fatespinner/Sacred Exorcist/Paragnostic Apostle, then lots of things are "traps," like "melee classes." Me personally? I couldn't play something so frenetic because prestige classes to me and most of my group aren't arbitrary sets of modular abilities like that. They represent organizations or special cases. It's fun to optimize from a theory-craft standpoint, but to me it's completely unplayable from a role play standpoint to dedicate yourself to 5 different organizations or be a special case 5 times over. I've run with numerous DMs that flat out deny the ability to multiclass out of a prestige class until it's done, either just flatly saying you can't or by saying that the multiclass XP penalty is only waived for one incomplete prestige class at a time. That's certainly not the attitude here, though. I'm pretty sure even my mentioning that has made several readers here come out of their chairs in exasperation.

[Grayson01]

Yep. Only possible thing improved is a wild shape druid who doesn't have MIC access and loses a lot of magic items benefits in wildshape, and that's STILL questionable.

VoP is a Great feat!!!! All of my Animal Companions Take it as soon as they can!

[da_chicken]

You mean the ones on Complete Mage, right? The reserve feats in Complete Champion are somewhat better, what with Touch of Healing being one of the most sought-after (despite healing only up to half your HP, it saves resources like nothing), and if you happen to gain access to the War domain, you can get Holy Warrior for extra damage so as long as you don't expend your highest level War domain spell. Charnel Miasma is also pretty interesting, as it can either shaken or panic a character for 1 minute, the latter being what nearly all Imperious Command builds strive for.

Even the ones in Complete Mage can be decent on the right build: Blade of Force and Minor Shapeshift come to mind for gish builds, for example.

Oh, I don't know. I played a Cloistered Cleric with Travel and Fire as domains once. I took Travel Devotion (and Dash!) at first, then Fiery Burst at 3rd, which was my primary offence from then on, and eventually picked up Dimensional Jaunt at 6th (DM allowed it but it did not work until 7th level), followed by Summon Elemental at 9th. Let me tell you, teleport at will is pretty sick, even with the limitations of the reserve feat. The character's god was basically a phoenix, so the DM ruled that I didn't just teleport... I consumed my body in fire and was reborn at another location instantly, leaving behind a small pile of very fine powder. I had much fun with that character. :smallbiggrin:

I never found Charnel Miasma worth anything. Too many creatures are immune to fear or mind-affecting, and I'm sure my DMs wouldn't let my characters get away with smelling like a corpse without drawback.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Healer and Warmage are both traps. They're too narrow, especially the healer. The healer isn't even the best at healing!
Warmage is honestly fine. Blasting is suboptimal, sure, but they get a fair number of BFC and debuff spells to go along with it. And if the group is more optimized, it's dead easy to expand your spell list. (And at high op, you're casting from the entire Cleric list at 11th level).

Healer is crap, though. Especially since it's not even a spontaneous caster.

[Sith_Happens]

I think VoP gets a bad rap here because it is always assumed you will always be able to obtain every item you want that is the best fit for you at your level and build at all times form lvl 1-20. In actual practice it is not bad on a couple of classes especially where magic treasure is random and magic marts are limited either in availability and or cost of said items. I think that a sorcerer druid and warlock (possibly some others) could all do better than average taking it in the above scenario.

"Actual practice" varies. Any time your DM is running things at least roughly by-the-book, getting exactly the items you want is just a matter of getting to a large enough city and not having anywhere to be for a few days.

[Captnq]

I agree. Monks being free of item dependency is a fallacy I've tried to correct in my playgroup. The ability to add enchantments to you strikes, alone, is enough to make me raise my eyebrows when looking over the class. Sure, I can make him hit with magic/silver/adamantine fists or whatever, but I can't have, say, a +2 Keen Defending Flaming Burst Foot. Not that I'm aware of, anyway, outside of Pathfinder.

1. I put masterwork cold iron caps on my knuckles from dragon #359. +1 EB/+9 WSA.
2. Bracers of Striking: +1 EB/+9 WSA
3. Necklace of natural Attacks: +10 WSA
4. Ward Cestus: +1/+9 WSA
5. Kensi Class: +1/+9 WSA
6. Greater Magic Weapon Buff spell: +5 EB.

Enhancement Bonuses don't stack, so the theoretical Optimization of a monk's fist under 3.0/3.5 is:
+5 Enhancement Bonus
+46 Weapon Special Abilities

Making a monk's fist a +51 non-epic weapon.

So, yeah, Monks are VERY equipment dependent. Your average 15th level monk should have +30 fists, +15 feet, +6 elbows, +6 knees, and a +6 forehead.

[Dorian Gray]

Elves. Notably, elves trying to do the things that elves are supposed to be good at. An elven wizard gets a bonus to a tertiary stat (yeah, that +1 AC is really gonna help you out), a penalty to the 2nd most important stat for practically any class, and loses out on a skill point and a feat. Once elven generalist substitution levels come online, the elf regains some competence, but in core, an elf wizard has about a 40% chance of surviving to get 3rd level spells. And no, that stat isn't made up. Blatant Lies

[Captnq]

Things that suck:
Aboleth Grafts.
Beholder grafts
Any construct grafts besides mighty arms.
Any deathless grafts besides bony plating.
Hate to say it, fiendish and undead grafts rock.
INEVITABLE GRAFTS SUCK.
Except for golden dancing pegleg, pirate grafts suck.

SUCKS
Armor, Light:
CHITINE WEB
CORD
HIDE, DRAGONCRAFT
MAMMOTH LEATHER
PADDED
SILK SWATHES
SPIDERSILK
WICKER

Armor, Med
BREASTPLATE, SCORPION
BREASTPLATE, THURKASIAN
BREASTPLATE, TUMBLER’S
HALF-PLATE, DRAGONCRAFT
TENTACLED HIDE

Armor, Heavy
ANIMAL TRAINING OUTFIT
CORAL
FEELER PLATE
GIANT PATCHWORK
MOUNTAIN PLATE
SPLINT MAIL

Applications
ARMOR INSULATION
ARMORBRIGHT
FREEGLIDE

Accessories
FINS
RIDING STRAPS
SIGNATURE CREST
STABILITY WEIGHTS

Poisons
ABOLETH OIL
ALFORNA
ANERMIS
ARSENIC
ASABI MIST
BATTASSS (SMOKE)
BLACK PIPER VENOM
BLOODROOT
BONESHARD PASTE (POSITOXIN)
CELESTIAL LIGHTSBLOOD (RAVAGE)
CHILBLAIN BRAIN JUICE
CHOLDRITH TOXIN
CRETCHWATER OIL, GHOSTS
CRETCHWATER OIL, LIVING
CULUM POWDER
DEATHBLADE
FANG DRAGON VENOM
GOLDEN ICE (RAVAGE)
GREENBLOOD OIL
HORROR WEED EXTRACT
ICE TOAD BILE
ICEGAUNT DUST
ISHENTAV
KETSU
KIREI-KO
MALYSS ROOT PASTE
NITHARIT
OIL OF TAGGIT
SMALL CENTIPEDE POISON
SMALL SCORPION POISON
SMALL SPIDER VENOM
SNAKE VENOM
SNOW SPIDER BLOOD
SPOTTED TOADSTOOL VENOM
THEVER PASTE
TINY SCORPION POISON
TINY SPIDER VENOM
VOLCANIC GAS
WARUI PASERI
WASP VENOM
WHITE PUDDING ESSENCE
ZEALOT’S BLADE

Before I go any further, I just want to point to my sig file. See where it says, your question may already be answered? I mean it. If you want more info on things that suck, check out the EVD and look for anything that is ORANGE. Orange Sucks.

[Sir Chuckles]

Not as often as I'd like, no, and until recently didn't know that Monk was considered "bad" either. In my usual play group, Vow of Poverty is banned because almost everyone thinks it's too -good-, and is therefore broken. I'm not one of those people, and would actually like some articulate words to back up my argument. Mostly I just grunt and shake my head in denial of their spurious claims.

Well then welcome. Strap in, fasten the 12-point harness (you'll need it), carry a pound of salt so you can put grains of it on everything, an remember that everyone plays differently.

We've all been through the whole "VoP is too good/Monk is too good/OMG my fireball does 6d6 damage!" phase(s). Just do a quick search for Monk threads and you'll get at least one a week. Usually more.


I'm assuming people think vow of poverty is under powered because you can always buy items that give you much better bonuses than the feat does. I'm assuming some people think it's overpowered because of its synergy with classes that don't use gear, such as monk. I don't think it's strong enough to ban, even when used that way (since they're no better off than they would be with magic items), but I don't think it belongs on this list either, as long as it's used with synergy. I don't see it as much of a hindrance to spellcasters either, since the ac bonus is better than braces of armor, and they can still cast spells on themselves. A martial spellcaster with antimagic field could make good use of this too, as most of those abilities (aside from ac and dr) are (ex), meaning you get your ability increases, natural armor, freedom of movement, etc, and your opponent gets nothing supernatural/magic.

Taking on a spellcaster makes the spellcaster a high-intelligence Commoner with some extra weapon proficiency. Why? Because a spellbook, as well as a holy symbol, is illegal to a VoP user.
On some characters, it's alright in the same way Toughness is alright. A single-dungeon session where you're unlikely to ever use that character again, for instance.


You can, certainly, but that's rather missing my point of contention. I feel like Factotum is a like a big box store, so diverse as to be bland.
Moreover, some of us suffer from paralysis of choice, so being able to do so much isn't always a good thing.

Sooo... Factotums are Wal-Marts?

And my two cents:
Duelist. The Monk of prestige classes. I can do without Monk as the class name. Superior Unarmed Strike Urban Barbarian is at least as flavor loaded as a Monk. And then there's unarmed Swordsage, but that's too easy. But my heart cries out in pain when I can't kill things with my Scathing Wit as effectively as Bob the 7 Int Fighter. Scathing Wit being the name of my swordcane.

[Sith_Happens]

RIDING STRAPS

How does a cheap* bonus that stacks with everything "suck?"

* Overpriced, sure, but still cheap.

[Sir Chuckles]

How does a cheap* bonus that stacks with everything "suck?"

* Overpriced, sure, but still cheap.


Riding straps cost 200? A seat belt costs 200 gold?

/Character Limit

[Ravens_cry]

Sooo... Factotums are Wal-Marts?

In the analogy I was going for, yes.

[VoxRationis]

Elves. Notably, elves trying to do the things that elves are supposed to be good at. An elven wizard gets a bonus to a tertiary stat (yeah, that +1 AC is really gonna help you out), a penalty to the 2nd most important stat for practically any class, and loses out on a skill point and a feat. Once elven generalist substitution levels come online, the elf regains some competence, but in core, an elf wizard has about a 40% chance of surviving to get 3rd level spells. And no, that stat isn't made up. Blatant Lies

Of course, in core, you don't have racial substitution levels anyway. What are those? Where do you find them?
And I think that of all classes, wizards need Constitution the least. Consider how easy it is to make a character or monster that does an insane amount of damage. The few extra hit points from a good Constitution aren't going to matter if such a character or monster gets to hit the wizard; their base Hit Die just isn't good enough to allow them to survive a mid-level Frenzied Berserker* if the latter manages to get a hit in. Really, the wizard's survivability depends wholly upon the ability to prevent such an attack from hitting in the first place, which is accomplished through both well-chosen spells and intelligent tactics. And as far as Fortitude saves go, a good Constitution will only make a difference in the first part of the game: after that, your base save bonus just starts dropping too low.

*Don't get bogged down with FB in particular; it's just an example of a high-damage attacker.

[Sith_Happens]

/Character Limit

1. Going from a +1 competence bonus to a +2 competence bonus costs 300 gp, more than the riding straps.

2. A military saddle is much closer to a seatbelt than riding straps. Last I checked, buckling up doesn't make you a better stunt driver (except in as much as it keeps you alive as one, of course).

[Sir Chuckles]

1. Going from a +1 competence bonus to a +2 competence bonus costs 300 gp, more than the riding straps.

2. A military saddle is much closer to a seatbelt than riding straps. Last I checked, buckling up doesn't make you a better stunt driver (except in as much as it keeps you alive as one, of course).

Don't take that up with me.
That's a direct copy&paste quote.

[Zombulian]

Things that suck:
Aboleth Grafts.
Beholder grafts
Any construct grafts besides mighty arms.
Any deathless grafts besides bony plating.
Hate to say it, fiendish and undead grafts rock.
INEVITABLE GRAFTS SUCK.
Except for golden dancing pegleg, pirate grafts suck.
ORANGE. Orange Sucks.

I'm sorry I'm gonna need a source on Golden Dancing Pegleg.

Edit: nvm found it

[TuggyNE]

Elves. Notably, elves trying to do the things that elves are supposed to be good at. An elven wizard gets a bonus to a tertiary stat (yeah, that +1 AC is really gonna help you out)

Be fair, it's also +1 Reflex, +1 ranged touch attacks, and +1 initiative. That last is actually rather handy for almost all wizards. Dex is a tertiary stat, not a dump stat.


in core, an elf wizard has about a 40% chance of surviving to get 3rd level spells. And no, that stat isn't made up. Blatant Lies

Before I saw the white text I was going to ask you to give a breakdown of that stat.

[Deophaun]

VoP's bonuses aren't comparable to gear. The ability enhancements fall short of a +6 Belt of Magnificence (which absolutely no class in the game needs) and a single +5 Tome/Manual (which every class needs). The AC boost is comparable to +2 Full Plate (something available from 6th level onward, and something which VoP users don't get until 17th level
Couple quibbles:

First, VoPers can be the recipient of wishes that boost their stats, so it is, at least theoretically, possible for them to gain a +5 Inherent bonus to their stat. Additionally, the primary Enhancement bonus caps out at +8, instead of the +6 everyone else is stuck with. So, in this regard, VoP can pull out ahead.

Additionally, The AC boost is -not- comparable to +2 Full Plate. It can be significantly better because there is no Max Dex. If you get a +5 Dex bonus, then you have as good an AC as +5 Mithral Full Plate, and that's something a VoPer can easily do, and possibly exceed. Armor needs to be judged on AC bonus + Dex bonus, not AC bonus alone.

Now, the rest, like the poor deflection bonus and lack of utility abilities? Yeah, that all holds true.

[Sir Chuckles]

I'm sorry I'm gonna need a source on Golden Dancing Pegleg.

Dragon Mag #318.
55k + leg= +10 to Dance.
And Mobility.
And Spring Attack.

[Kennisiou]

Elves. Notably, elves trying to do the things that elves are supposed to be good at. An elven wizard gets a bonus to a tertiary stat (yeah, that +1 AC is really gonna help you out), a penalty to the 2nd most important stat for practically any class, and loses out on a skill point and a feat. Once elven generalist substitution levels come online, the elf regains some competence, but in core, an elf wizard has about a 40% chance of surviving to get 3rd level spells. And no, that stat isn't made up. Blatant Lies

There are some people who argue that (to a point) dex is more important to wizards than con. You only need enough con to have good HP and a decent fort save, and since you generally shouldn't be getting hit much you don't need a ton of either of those things. High dex lets you hit ranged touch attacks better, which is the real shining point in their favor.

Also, Gray Elves, Sun Elves, and Fire Elves are rad wizards.

Also: RE VoP I had one of my players show how in raw numeric terms a VoP character is usually going to come out really far ahead of a non VoP character just for a lot of raw numbers (abilities, ac, etc). It definitely doesn't make up for loss of powerful utility items that do things like provide flight, mind blank, etc, but if you feel confident in your class features covering those (wizard casting, psion manifesting, druid casting/wildshaping) then VoP isn't necessarily bad. Still kind of a trap in that it's a lot of trouble to optimize.

[TiaC]

Except for golden dancing pegleg, pirate grafts suck.
Mutineers Eye is quite good. +1d6 Sneak Attack for 4k and -2 to spot?

[deuxhero]

Pretty much all the DMG Prestige Classes. Only Loremaster and Archmage are decent, and those have pretty steep requirements.



What? Horizon Walker is great in core (See: Horizon Tripper), Assassin is WAY better than most logical entries for the casting alone, Blackguard is fairly stupid to qualify for, but going in as a straight fighter or fighter/rogue it's OK, EK and AT are outdated by loads of classes but work OK, and while Thaumaturgist is probobly better if you shenanigan LPA onto a wizard, it still focuses on a fairly decent style (Summoning) and gets a outsider/elemental cohort (can you Wish?). Shadowdancer is also a 1 level dip for HIPS, MT is OK if you can enter early.

Really, only Arcane Archer, Hierophant, Dwarven Defender and Duelist are must outright traps.

[Jeff the Green]

I'm a little surprised nobody's mentioned this yet, but: sword and board.

The AC bonus is okay in the very low levels before you're getting much out of Power Attack anyway and haven't boosted your strength, but pretty quickly it becomes negligible.

There are a couple of exceptions, but they're non-obvious so it's still a trap: Agile Shield Fighter is essentially TWF without a Dexterity prereq (but with a crappy feat one), and at higher levels there's no real reason for anyone without ASF to not get an animated shield. Oh, and I think the magic item Spare Hand can hold one for you, but it only works properly for an artificer. I kinda like the idea of a fighter (not the class, more likely something with sneak attack) who fights with a THW, an animated shield, and armor spikes, though. You'd need to houserule on Multiattack or be a thri-kreen or diopsid, though.

[TuggyNE]

What? Horizon Walker is great in core (See: Horizon Tripper), Assassin is WAY better than most logical entries for the casting alone, Blackguard is fairly stupid to qualify for, but going in as a straight fighter or fighter/rogue it's OK, EK and AT are outdated by loads of classes but work OK, and while Thaumaturgist is probobly better if you shenanigan LPA onto a wizard, it still focuses on a fairly decent style (Summoning) and gets a outsider/elemental cohort (can you Wish?). Shadowdancer is also a 1 level dip for HIPS, MT is OK if you can enter early.

Really, only Arcane Archer, Hierophant, Dwarven Defender and Duelist are must outright traps.

Fairly sure no one plays it like this, but by strict RAW Archmage is a terrible trap, since it fails to advance caster level along with spellcaster level.

[Dread_Head]

I'm a little surprised nobody's mentioned this yet, but: sword and board.

The AC bonus is okay in the very low levels before you're getting much out of Power Attack anyway and haven't boosted your strength, but pretty quickly it becomes negligible.

There are a couple of exceptions, but they're non-obvious so it's still a trap: Agile Shield Fighter is essentially TWF without a Dexterity prereq (but with a crappy feat one), and at higher levels there's no real reason for anyone without ASF to not get an animated shield. Oh, and I think the magic item Spare Hand can hold one for you, but it only works properly for an artificer. I kinda like the idea of a fighter (not the class, more likely something with sneak attack) who fights with a THW, an animated shield, and armor spikes, though. You'd need to houserule on Multiattack or be a thri-kreen or diopsid, though.

Yeh, I was going to mention sword and board. In general it can be extended to any fighting style that isn't THF really though. TWF can work but requires a source of bonus damage to be effective. One handed weapon fighting (as Duelist) just straight up sucks. Archery and mounted combat both can be made to work but require significant build investment. Unarmed fighting can work but the Monk class is a very bad way to do it.

Also most of the combat manoeuvres that aren't tripping are a bit of a trap. Disarm is useless against monsters that don't use weapons, sunder destroys your loot, feint prevents full attacks and what is overrun meant to achieve? Bullrushing can be effective but only with Knockback and/or Dungeoncrasher. Grappling is just terrible and has the added downside of really complicated rules.

Most EWP feats are traps as they only slightly increase your damage, particularly Bastard Sword proficiency.

A huge trap is the ranger variant that trades casting for extra feats. A first time player is going to look at the one 1st level spell available at 4 and trade it straight away for a bonus feat not realising how much this loses in the long term.

I managed to fall into most of these traps whilst building my first character. A human ranger with TWF, TWD, OTWF, EWP: Bastard Sword, Dodge, Mobility & Spring Attack (for the aforementioned trap Prc Tempest) who traded away the spellcasting for feats.

[J-H]

Soulknife.

[Chronos]

I wouldn't say that sword-and-board is really a trap. Yes, it's usually suboptimal, but it requires very little commitment or expenditure of resources. You can go sword-and-board for the first couple of levels when that +2 AC is actually useful, and then pick up a greatsword and forget about shields entirely, and you're no worse off than the guy who was using a greatsword right from the start. A trap that's so easily escaped is no trap at all.

Now, a feat that only works when using a one-handed weapon and a shield, that would be a trap (unless it's a really really good feat), because it's a lot harder to swap out a feat than it is to swap out equipment.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There are some people who argue that (to a point) dex is more important to wizards than con.
Especially if you can take Fairy Mysteries Initiate and use Int for health.

[Chronos]

Add to the list, the Deadly Precision feat, from XPH (though what it's doing there, I don't know): Assuming you're a pure rogue, it ends up adding an average of something like 0.2 damage per level to your sneak attacks (much less than that, if you've only dipped rogue). By comparison, Craven adds 1 damage per level, regardless of your classes, and can be multiplied by crits and such.

[Toliudar]

I've found any investment in the open lock skill to be a waste. Either we roll the skill into Disable Device, or if I'm in the skillmonkey role I use some combination of acid, wands of knock and small hammers.

[Shining Wrath]

I've found any investment in the open lock skill to be a waste. Either we roll the skill into Disable Device, or if I'm in the skillmonkey role I use some combination of acid, wands of knock and small hammers.

An adamantine arrow head makes a fine lock pick.

[Element Zero]

I've found any investment in the open lock skill to be a waste. Either we roll the skill into Disable Device, or if I'm in the skillmonkey role I use some combination of acid, wands of knock and small hammers.

I often forget Open Lock even exists, and as a DM I just make the player roll Disable Device.

[da_chicken]

What? Horizon Walker is great in core (See: Horizon Tripper), Assassin is WAY better than most logical entries for the casting alone, Blackguard is fairly stupid to qualify for, but going in as a straight fighter or fighter/rogue it's OK, EK and AT are outdated by loads of classes but work OK, and while Thaumaturgist is probobly better if you shenanigan LPA onto a wizard, it still focuses on a fairly decent style (Summoning) and gets a outsider/elemental cohort (can you Wish?). Shadowdancer is also a 1 level dip for HIPS, MT is OK if you can enter early.

Horizon Walker has approximately 1 class feature levels 1-5, and 2 class features levels 6-10. The only one that's decent is dimension door every 1d4 rounds. Everything else is garbage and not worth your time. That it functions in a single build does not make the class less of a trap.

Assassin has irrelevant spells. Caster level never exceeds 10, and all the spells can be replaced by UMD wands/scrolls, potions, or just plain magic items. You sacrifice the Rogue's special abilities for a death attack that takes three rounds of study and has a laughable DC. You get Hide in Plain Sight... at 13th level. You should have a wand of invisibility at that level, if not a wand of greater invisibility or a ring of invisibility.

Shadowdancer looks alright as a dip, until you realize you're burning three feats (Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility) just to get HiPS. There's no way you take those feats otherwise, as AoO aren't your schtick as a Rogue, Dodge is a horrible feat best used to qualify for other, unrelated things, and Mobility is just bad Tumble.

Blackguard is a Paladin without access to any Paladin material. It's not just the evil paladin class, it's the bad paladin class, too.

Thaumaturgist allows you to specialize in spells that literally can't beat protection from evil/good, which essentially all casters of any type have on at the levels you finish the class up, and requires you to cast everything as a full round action ensuring you're a sitting duck if you want to do anything useful. Then there's all the bookkeeping and tracking hitpoints and who does what. And yes, you get an outsider ally... at the full planar ally price of 1,000 gp per HD and 100-250 XP. And you're still limited to ECL = level - 2! At level 15, you can get a Hound Archon (ECL 11, CR 4), a Succubus (ECL 12, CR 6... although that's pretty bad ass), a Nightmare (ECL 10, CR 5) or a Djinni (ECL 13, CR 5). Of course, if you just cast Planar Ally, those are available about 4-6 levels sooner, and at level 15 you can get a Trumpet Archon, Galbrezu, or Planetar (who is also a level 17 cleric).

Mystic Theurge, by being a 10 level class instead of a 14 level class, ensures you're well and truly screwed. Yes, you can cheat the system by using Precocious Apprentice, but this class forces you to sacrifice both early game power and late game power for a small amount of midgame versatility, but doesn't give you any more actions to spend spells on meaning you're probably not particularly more effective.

EK and AT are flawed in that they're arcane gish classes giving you abilities that are essentially incompatible: armor with arcane spells; spells with high attack bonus; spells with sneak attack. All of them require you to sacrifice spellcasting for combat abilities, which is always a bad trade. -2 caster levels from EK and probably 3 for AT give you literally nothing you need or want for EK and the ability to use skills you no longer have the point volume to maintain at 30 feet... a few times a day.


Really, only Arcane Archer, Hierophant, Dwarven Defender and Duelist are must outright traps.

And Dragon Disciple. The only class that can qualify for it in a reasonable manner is Bard, and you have to completely sacrifice all progression to do so. In the end you get ability bonuses that make you better in melee (as a Bard) and a breath weapon that's worse than the spell progression you had to give up.

[Kennisiou]

Assassin gets full BaB, full sneak attack progression, and a decent spell list at albeit slow progression without good caster level. That's still pretty solid. Hide in plain sight and poison use are also far from bad. Sure death attack is a joke and other classes are stronger, but a rogue assassin is a solid t3 character, which is fine power-level wise.

I think you underestimate the usefulness of Fatigue Immunity and Darkvision in core, as well as the usefulness of untyped skill bonuses. Horizon Walker outside of core is pretty mediocre except maybe as a one or two level dip for builds that need the aforementioned fatigue immunity/darkvision and can't get it from easier sources, but in a core only game it's honestly the only game in town for melee prestige. Fatigueless barbarian rage before level 17, some random skill bonuses to help with your poor skill point pool, and that darkvision are all really good if you're a non-caster in core. Again it can easily achieve t4-t3 status, which is far from a bad spot to be power-wise.

Shadow Dancer is... odd. Okay, so the thing about Shadow Dancer is that in core only it's pretty bad but has some interesting mobility options that core generally lacks. While the complaint of "lighting creating shadows is not RAW in D&D" is valid and kinda makes them moot, the fact that you eventually get followed around by 5 literal shadows is a pretty nice way around that. The feat taxes for entry are big and they're far from powerful enough to justify that. They also lack some of the features that they definitely should've had, like an actual stealthy person spell list or maybe just some more SLAs. Free darkvision (ignoring magical darkness as well like baator domain) and the ability to cast darkness and greater darkness as spells would've honestly helped the class a lot. And progressing sneak attack or giving some other form of damage, or giving them a way to spread some battlefield control or debuffs so they're a lot more useful in combat. I dunno. I feel like I should defend it because it's so close to being a fine class, you know? Like it's just a small jump from being t3-t4 territory on rogue builds. As it stands they're a class with two cool features and nothing else to save them.

EK and AT are both bad, but far from that bad. EK can be useful to nab a few levels of in gish builds to get spellcasting progression and BaB since the entry requirements are fairly easy to make. There are not a lot of easy entry classes that give full BaB and also give (mostly) full spellcasting progression that don't have ridiculous entry requirements. EK only losing one spell level and having full BaB and easy entry is nice. AT is... It's honestly got some uses but mostly it sucks, yeah. It's kind of a case of being a good build for if you want to play a mage but not overpower the non-mages so much?

Dragon Disciple is also a bit better than you give it credit for, in core only anyways. It's not really meant for single-class sorcs or bards to go into. It's a class that exists for the fighter to dip some sorc levels to meet entry requirements for and then get access to some stat boosts that help it do its job better than all the bonus feats in core as well as some natural attacks, flight, and energy immunity. I said "horizon-walker is the best game in town for mundanes" and that stays true since DD requires you, ya know, not be, but Dragon Disciple fighters make much better damage dealers and frontliners than any non-druid, non-cleric in core, and that's not really something to be ashamed of.

Arcane Archer has one salvageable build, the duskblade 5/abj champ 5/arcane archer 10 switch-hitter. It's got solid damage output and a nice array of low-level utility spells, as well as the ability to fight in melee or at any range. Still failed to do what it set out to do and is definitely a trap for anyone not running that exact build, but that build is worth mentioning because it's pretty solid.

Blackguard does suck, though. Like unequivicobly. Thaumaturgist not as much as Blackguard but it's still bad. Heirophant too. And Duelist and Dwarven Defender. But a lot of the core prestige classes get **** on unfairly because they're not as good as a single class wizard, which is also in core. And that's a fair criticism to have, but the same people will gush about warblades, beguilers, factotums, totemists... all classes of similar power levels to Assassin.

[T.G. Oskar]

Assassin has irrelevant spells. Caster level never exceeds 10, and all the spells can be replaced by UMD wands/scrolls, potions, or just plain magic items. You sacrifice the Rogue's special abilities for a death attack that takes three rounds of study and has a laughable DC. You get Hide in Plain Sight... at 13th level. You should have a wand of invisibility at that level, if not a wand of greater invisibility or a ring of invisibility.

I'd hardly say irrelevant.

The Assassin got a bunch of spells in nearly every book (the Spell Compendium has most of them), and most of them aren't really bad (I recall they even have Wraithstrike, arguably considered one of the best spells). The "laughable" DC is par for the course regarding other classes (10 +1/2 level + ability score modifier is the standard; Assassin collapses that in 10 levels) and there's several classes that provide a stacking bonus, so it can reach higher than that; furthermore, being a Fortitude save, it faces both the highest save bonus and the one that can be exploited the most. They get 5d6 Sneak Attack and they can easily get support from Ambush feats, which are pretty awesome. And...are you really telling me that the Rogue's special abilities are better than the Assassin's spells? Color me impressed. I'd take the spells over the special abilities every day, even if some of them are good (and I'm not speaking about the bonus feats).

They still get UMD, but they can save rolling and potentially failing on the check for either the use of a wand completely reliably, or get the spell and get a higher amount of turns than those granted by the wand or the scroll (CL 10 means you get more rounds of Greater Invisibility, by the way). What's worse: to have no-fail use of wands and scrolls plus a support of actual spellcasting with good CL, or having to spend most of your resources getting a wand or scroll to function when you need it the most? And let's not speak of the Ring: it's quite expensive (though not too expensive for its use), and it doesn't let you keep attacking as Greater (or Superior) Invisibility.

You can see how the guys at the Iron Chef (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?178202-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-XVI/page6) competition worked the class out (mind the tables, though; forum changes and all). Sure, a good amount used Psionic Assassin, but those who used the class as-is (myself included) pulled off some great tricks.


Blackguard is a Paladin without access to any Paladin material. It's not just the evil paladin class, it's the bad paladin class, too.

Sure, but it has its own features as well. It can choose Ambush feats naturally, its Aura of Despair means any spell or class feature you use on it will probably succeed, and its spells are pretty different from those of the Paladin, getting essentially their own spell list and whatnot. Yes: perhaps the loss of Sword of the Arcane Order, Harmonious Knight, Divine Spirit, Charging Smite and whatnot are painful (and so does Battle Blessing, but then again that spell should have gone to more classes than just Paladin), but the fallen Paladin goodies are actually not that bad.


EK and AT are flawed in that they're arcane gish classes giving you abilities that are essentially incompatible: armor with arcane spells; spells with high attack bonus; spells with sneak attack. All of them require you to sacrifice spellcasting for combat abilities, which is always a bad trade. -2 caster levels from EK and probably 3 for AT give you literally nothing you need or want for EK and the ability to use skills you no longer have the point volume to maintain at 30 feet... a few times a day.

There's a reason why EK still remains a good choice for gish builds despite Abjurant Champion. Spellsword grants class features, but its spell progression is horribly screwed; Abjurant Champion grants full spellcasting progression and class features, but it leaves you with a need to specialize in Abjuration spells AND it's 5 levels long. If you want to finish any Gish progression without losing that many caster levels, you need EK. In fact, it's still valuable compared to another class that's almost entirely similar, which is Knight Phantom. That said: there are various ways to get armor and spells working (Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt, Battle Caster feat), and so as long as you get the Holy Grail of Gishes (BAB 16 + 9th level spellcasting), it really doesn't matter whether the class is good or not. EK helps on that, because the loss of spellcasting is often minimal compared to the gains in BAB. Plus, for a gish, a bonus feat is always nice, particularly when Abjurant Champion requires a horrible feat in exchange (Combat Casting).

As for Arcane Trickster...there's ways to get Sneak Attack without hurting your spellcasting that badly. It's not a tier-raising build or a a PrC that's essential for a build (like EK, Spellsword and Abj. Champ. for Gish builds), but it's nowhere near a trap when the build asks for it. Certainly, it's more useful than Duelist (which is saying much) or Daggerspell Mage (a close competitor, just to vary). In fact, I'd say it can compete with Unseen Seer, which is often considered a great PrC for a few levels. That it's not as great as, say, Ruathar, doesn't mean it doesn't have its uses.

[Ravens_cry]

Arcane Trickster is a synergy class. I like Pathfinder's version better, it adds more features I'd actually use, but it does what it's meant to without being strictly Wizard+.

[Killer Angel]

Assassin
You get Hide in Plain Sight... at 13th level. You should have a wand of invisibility at that level, if not a wand of greater invisibility or a ring of invisibility.

At that level, enemies have see invisibility, or true seeing. Hide beats those, while invisibility doesn't.

[Deophaun]

I just find it funny that Assassin's can't use Silent Spell, what with their casting pegged to the Bard for some crazy reason.

[Sartharina]

Vow of powerty is bad, because everything it gets for you is absolutely overshadowed by everything WBL gives you.

Actually, VoP gives bigger numbers than WBL. Unfortunately, it's not numbers, but utility, that wins the game.

As for the monk being a trap - It's not that mobility and defense don't matter, but the system punishes and prevents them from being used - Attack bonuses scale stupid-fast compared to defenses, and most monster attack routines don't have the diminishing iteratives that are supposed to balance combat. And a big problem with mobility is that your movement score stops mattering the moment you take an action, and you can only move 5' if you want to take a full-round action.

I am so glad D&D Next fixes those problems.

[TuggyNE]

Horizon Walker has approximately 1 class feature levels 1-5, and 2 class features levels 6-10. The only one that's decent is dimension door every 1d4 rounds. Everything else is garbage and not worth your time. That it functions in a single build does not make the class less of a trap.

Besides what others have said, I'd like to note Aligned planar mastery and its nigh-unique ability to no-sell blasphemy, unholy blight, and so on, as well as blending in to the dominant alignment (when on the Material Plane, that means you don't register at all on any detect spells). That in itself is probably not worth taking six levels, but it's definitely worth taking +1 level if you already have five levels. And seven levels for that and DDooring + assorted mundane buffs is not too shabby, especially in Core.

[Graypairofsocks]

An adamantine arrow head makes a fine lock pick.

But that will ruin the treasure!