Official Cast of Star Wars VII

[Jayngfet]

Operationally I'm unsure of the difference between a ridiculously convoluted plan and a million to one chance. After all if you're banking on a series of events occuring just so, when they easily could not, you are in essence relying on a million to one chance. And I would note that the same was true of the Empire, which lost inside of thirty years. Generally in most fields being a thirtieth as durable is considered a significant flaw.

There kind of is a difference, in terms of agency. Palpatine didn't just wait for a random kid in the sand like the Jedi tend to. He bribed the trade federation to cause trouble while playing the senate to respond the way he wanted to. He made sure there was a convenient army to start a war and that no jedi could discover it until it was too late. He then managed to cement his rule through politics and intimidation. There's clearly a series of cause and effect actions, and even if the federation somehow won he'd still be in charge.

The only reason he died was ultimately because of the first death star and Luke hitting it perfectly, which is damn near impossible, given he has to run through 300 mounted guns, along a long trench angle, swarming with enemy fighters, making a shot no targeting computer can manage, and get his missiles to turn at a 90 degree angle right over the port. He'd recruited one of the only people able to make that shot and killed most other candidates, as well as demoralized anyone willing to even try stepping up to the plate. Heck, if it wasn't for a surprise appearance from a ghost they still never would have made it, and even Vader obviously never considered something that out of left field.

That's what made the victory so thrilling, it's one that should have been impossible. Even in the context of just the first movie, it's established as something of a miracle.

[Psyren]

Palpatine: Just as keikaku....
*Tzeentch Seal of Approval*

I need to go make a demotivator out of those two things....

Palpatine: Omoidoori, omoidoori, OMOIDOORI!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp-QxtJo3fQ)


Didn't the Republic last for something like a thousand years, and only fall because of a series of one in a million chances and a last minute betrayal?

Besides which, even if the Jedi aren't all they are cracked up to be, really that just makes their fall, and the fall of the Republic more interesting, not less.

Oh, I didn't say it wasn't interesting. On the contrary - children aside, watching those sanctimonious prats get owned by an old man and a whole lot of grunts was the most satisfying part of the prequels for me.

And honestly, it could have fallen before then too, it's just that the other Darths before Sid were really lazy. It really only needed one good push. (Or more accurately, two pushes - the fake-out with Grievous, and taking it home with the clones.)

[Mando Knight]

Heck, if it wasn't for a surprise appearance from a ghost they still never would have made it, and even Vader obviously never considered something that out of left field.

A surprise visit from a ghost and a change of heart from Han. When Vader was chasing Luke, his appraisal of his son's untapped strength in the Force was more of an amusement. It's when the Falcon came out of the blue (or, rather, the black) that he yelled "WHAT?!"

[hamishspence]

In the comic version he yells "By the immortal gods of the Sith!" when that happens.

[MLai]

In the comic version he yells "By the immortal gods of the Sith!" when that happens.
Which is why you should ignore the comics.
And the EU.
Oh boy, I smile.

[hamishspence]

The comic version of ANH matched the movie rather more closely than the novel version did though. Especially the briefing scene where the Imperials aboard are informed of dissolution of the Senate.

[Zrak]

"All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Thank you for proving my point.
"All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to recite the quote about evil triumphing when good men do nothing in an Internet debate while still doing nothing."

I mean, if your contention is that the Jedi are essentially as bad as the Sith because they don't do everything they can to help out absolutely every life form in a galaxy of trillions upon trillions of souls, what does that make you? C'mon, dude, you only have to worry about a number of people in the single-digit billions and you're still arguing about Star Wars on the internet instead of teaching yourself to repair cleft palates and providing free surgery to the impoverished for the remainder of your natural life, asking only enough food to survive and a small corner of the floor as shelter from the elements. If you aren't at least going to stop at a bank to set up a trust fund for every single homeless person you see until you run out of money, then sell all your worldly possessions and give away all of that money, you may as well be a genocidal lunatic who cares only about his own power.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't mean to seriously imply you're a bad person, I'm just saying that I don't know how tenable that argument is, at least in the way you're currently mobilizing it.

[Clertar]

I wish the new episodes would look back to the actual and/or good themes and elements in the original trilogy. I guess it's too much to ask to reboot the whole thing and ditch the prequel trilogy as a "what if" sort of thing...

Is it bad, doctor, that I look forward to this graphic novel more than to the new films? xD http://starwars1999.tumblr.com/


The real-world inspiration for the Force lies mostly in Eastern religions like Taoism and Zen Buddhism (natural, given the samurai influence in Star Wars). I’m not the first to point out that the Force is essentially a more literal fantasy expression of the Tao, with its manifestation being similar to chi in Chinese cosmology. Its an all-pervasive energy that can be manipulated with skill and mental clarity. More importantly, because the Tao is all-encompassing, understanding and accessing it is not limited to a bloodline. Some might be more talented than others (Kenobi does confirm Anakin’s natural talent in RoTJ), but by its very definition, it is not exclusive.

Throughout the original films there is an emphasis that the Force is something that transcends the physical, and to use it requires a leap of imagination and spiritual transcendence. This is encapsulated by Yoda, who subverts our expectations of a “great warrior,” emphasizing that the Force is independent of any physical constraints. In all of Yoda’s teachings, there is a clear message that the Force is present in all things, and using it well is determined by one’s own mental and emotional state.

Lucas’s inclusion of midi-chlorians contradicts and undermines this theme, going so far as to explicitly state that, prior to Anakin, Yoda had the most midi-chlorians. Yoda wasn’t a powerful Jedi because he was wise, it was because he had the most Force juice. Not only does the “scientific” explanation garble the metaphysical nature of the Force, it directly contradicts its all-encompassing, universal nature. It took what was originally a metaphor for spiritual enlightenment and turned it into mutant powers.

[TheThan]

I wish the new episodes would look back to the actual and/or good themes and elements in the original trilogy. I guess it's too much to ask to reboot the whole thing and ditch the prequel trilogy as a "what if" sort of thing...

Is it bad, doctor, that I look forward to this graphic novel more than to the new films? xD http://starwars1999.tumblr.com/

That actually looks pretty good. Disney would be wise to go back in that direction.
Now saying that, I don't see anything inherently wrong with continuing the Skywalker/Solo legacy.
(I'm not necessarily talking about Cade skywalker here either.

[jere7my]

I wish the new episodes would look back to the actual and/or good themes and elements in the original trilogy. I guess it's too much to ask to reboot the whole thing and ditch the prequel trilogy as a "what if" sort of thing...

I don't think that author quite grasps the way the Force was portrayed in the original trilogy. When Ben says "That boy was our last hope," Yoda doesn't reply "No, pretty much anybody will do, because everybody has equal access to the Force." Luke and Leia are their last and only hopes. Even in the original trilogy there was something special about the Skywalker family—and, presumably, about Yoda and Ben—that gave them an exceptional affinity for the Force.

Midichlorians are just a way of measuring that affinity—everybody's got them, but only some people have enough to make Jedi training worthwhile. Midichlorians don't touch the portrayal of the Force as a mystical force that binds all living things; they're just little Force antennae, which give some people the aptitude for sensing and manipulating the Force. The difference between "Anakin's midichlorians are off the charts" and "Anakin has exceptional Force Sensitivity" is a question of terminology.

[Zrak]

I think the real issue is quantifying it; as a recent episode of Mad Men put it, "What man laid on his back counting stars and thought about a number?"

[TheThan]

I don't think that author quite grasps the way the Force was portrayed in the original trilogy. When Ben says "That boy was our last hope," Yoda doesn't reply "No, pretty much anybody will do, because everybody has equal access to the Force." Luke and Leia are their last and only hopes. Even in the original trilogy there was something special about the Skywalker family—and, presumably, about Yoda and Ben—that gave them an exceptional affinity for the Force.

Midichlorians are just a way of measuring that affinity—everybody's got them, but only some people have enough to make Jedi training worthwhile. Midichlorians don't touch the portrayal of the Force as a mystical force that binds all living things; they're just little Force antennae, which give some people the aptitude for sensing and manipulating the Force. The difference between "Anakin's midichlorians are off the charts" and "Anakin has exceptional Force Sensitivity" is a question of terminology.

Actually even then, that still tracks.

Luke and Leia are both Vader’s children, because you know twins and all. So Vader is likely to connect to both of them not just one of ‘em. If Luke fails to reach Anakin Skywalker, then Leia has a chance afterward. Any other random force sensitive that Vader comes across is just an enemy to be destroyed, but Luke and Leia are his children. Parental feeling is usually pretty strong. They’re the only two people in the galaxy that can get to Anakin Skywalker, the good person ( I know, I know, bear with me here) that’s buried deep beneath the Vader Persona.

They’re also the only two people Obi-wan and Yoda know that are force sensitive, so they have another chance at training a new pupil. Remember the Jedi order is all but extinct. So there weren’t exactly a bunch of people lining up at Obi-Wan’s front door seeking training.

We know that Vader felt something for Luke to begin with. In Empire, it’s Vader that suggests that Luke can be turned to the dark side. He sets the trap for him, and basically has Luke at his mercy. He doesn’t want to destroy Luke at all; he wants him at his side as father/son. Heck at the end of Empire, Luke starts calling Vader father, and Vader starts calling him son, something they continue on into ROTJ.

How does that relate to the emperor? Simple it doesn’t. See, neither Yoda or Obi-Wan actually tell Luke to go after the emperor. They tell him to go after Vader. They know he’s got the best chance to turn him back to the Light Side. At most they give Luke a warning about confronting him.
We have no idea what their long term plan was, maybe they didn’t have one, or maybe they're banking on Vader turning on the emperor, or double teaming him with Luke, we really don't know. (I’m going for the no plan option, seeing how episode III ended).

[Clertar]

IRT jere7my:


I don't think that author quite grasps the way the Force was portrayed in the original trilogy. When Ben says "That boy was our last hope," Yoda doesn't reply "No, pretty much anybody will do, because everybody has equal access to the Force." Luke and Leia are their last and only hopes. Even in the original trilogy there was something special about the Skywalker family—and, presumably, about Yoda and Ben—that gave them an exceptional affinity for the Force.

I'll quote a couple of paragraphs from the same post (http://starwars1999.tumblr.com/post/61534887062/midi-chlorians-and-the-harry-pottering-of-star-wars) in this project's site which addresses this very issue:


The Threat of “Skywalker’s Son”

When the Emperor tells Vader “The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi,” some have interpreted this to imply that the Skywalker line creates inherently powerful Jedi, or that the Skywalkers are the last people capable of becoming Jedi. While the former may partly be true (with regards to Luke’s talent, at least), the latter has no evidence behind it, and is contradicted by the details of the setting. Vader and the Emperor exterminated countless Jedi, another one existing is trivial from a military perspective. Nor is Luke an incredibly powerful Jedi who can destroy them (the Emperor shows how easily Luke is at his mercy in Return of the Jedi). Luke’s threat to the Emperor is not one of power, but of his emotional connection to his father. Luke’s existence unravels the persona of Darth Vader, and it is this that “could destroy” Vader and the Emperor.

Kenobi even says “The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him.” He does not say “The Emperor knew that Anakin’s offspring would be strong in the Force.” If that were the case, then the Emperor would see Anakin’s children as a prized possession, not an inherent threat. The Emperor doesn’t want Luke to become a Jedi not because he fears Luke’s power to fight him, but because Luke’s emotional connection to his father would be strengthened. If Luke confronts Vader as a “fully trained Jedi,” he has the spiritual advantage, in a sense, which is what leads to his ultimate victory in Return of the Jedi.

...

If Luke was born with “Force potential,” and if it was his power that posed a threat to Darth Vader and the Emperor, then it paints Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda as incompetent. If Luke possessed a unique power, and Kenobi cared about defeating the Empire, then he would have taken the boy at birth and sent him to live with Yoda on Dagobah, where he’d be trained from the start. What we see instead is Luke living a normal life up until a chance encounter with Kenobi, who then decides, only after given a new mission by Leia, that Luke should be trained as a Jedi.

Why train Luke then and not at birth? What did Kenobi know about Luke in A New Hope that he didn’t know when Luke was born? His personality. Kenobi had to see if Luke possessed the right disposition to both be a hero and someone who would be receptive to the teachings of the Force. In both A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, it’s established that open-mindedness is possibly the most important requirement for developing a strong connection with the Force. This is why Yoda mentions that Jedi cannot be trained after a certain age. Learning the Force is like learning a new language- the mind has to be open enough to perceive this new way of seeing the world.

[hamishspence]

See, neither Yoda or Obi-Wan actually tell Luke to go after the emperor. They tell him to go after Vader. They know he’s got the best chance to turn him back to the Light Side. At most they give Luke a warning about confronting him.

When Luke says "I can't kill my own father" Ben responds "Then the Emperor has already won".

[jere7my]

IRT jere7my:



I'll quote a couple of paragraphs from the same post (http://starwars1999.tumblr.com/post/61534887062/midi-chlorians-and-the-harry-pottering-of-star-wars) in this project's site which addresses this very issue:

No, I read that; I just don't buy it. It strikes me as requiring a lot of invention from the viewer to get to a predetermined preferred result. The simplest interpretation of the original trilogy is that the Skywalker line is special, for reasons of both destiny and Force sensitivity. A more egalitarian interpretation might be fun (if a little tortured), but I don't think it was Lucas's intent to say that Han or Chewie or any given Jawa could have been trained as a Jedi if they'd felt like it. Some people are stronger in the Force; it may not be fair, but it's the plainest interpretation of the films.

"The Force runs strong in my family."

[T-O-E]

It's kind of absurd how small the Star Wars universe actually is. Wasn't one of the nice features of the first movie the idea that it implied there was a much larger world and the part we were shown was only a small part of it. Now it's just retreading old content and not doing anything else. Jedi this, Sith that, here's a child of Luke. This is arguably a problem of the prequels too since they seemed to be mainly addressing things that were mentioned in the original trilogy and actually reducing their problem by showing that 'what actually happened' was less interesting than whatever the viewer came up with in her own head.

Whatever. Maybe this time we'll get a lightsaber sphere or a force gun or something.

[jere7my]

They’re also the only two people Obi-wan and Yoda know that are force sensitive....

Right—not everybody is Force-sensitive. That's all I'm saying. The Star Wars 1999 guy says, "...we can briefly dismantle the myth of 'Force potential,' and that the only restrictions to being trained as a Jedi are those of age, imagination, and hard work." I don't think that's supported in the original trilogy; you and I agree that some people have Force sensitivity and some don't. I also think some are more sensitive than others, and that Midichlorians are just a way of attaching a number to that scale. No "Harry Pottering" necessary.

[jere7my]

It's kind of absurd how small the Star Wars universe actually is. Wasn't one of the nice features of the first movie the idea that it implied there was a much larger world and the part we were shown was only a small part of it. Now it's just retreading old content and not doing anything else. Jedi this, Sith that, here's a child of Luke.

Well, we have no idea at this point what Episode VII will be about. We know the original cast will be in it, if that's your point, but we don't know whether it will feature any of their offspring or Sith or what-have-you. (Presumably there will be Jedi.) The fact that they've chucked the Expanded Universe out the window gives me hope that they won't focus so narrowly on the elements that have already been introduced.

[Wookieetank]

I'm hoping the BBEG is the Dalek Emperor. What? :smalltongue:

Okay fine, the reincarnation of Darth Revan. :smallwink:

For seriousness, I'm just happy to see a Star Wars film coming out without George Lucas around to mess it up. If Abrams' take on Star Trek is anything to go by, we'll get something dramatic, actiony and full of lense flares, which I'm okay with (although the flares could be toned down a bit). I'm just glad they're not re-booting Star Wars (aside from throwing out the EU, which I've enjoyed, but has been retreading the same things in recent years :/) like everything else these days. Anything new in the movies is good in my book, even if its a continuation of an existing franchise.

[Legato Endless]

No, I read that; I just don't buy it. It strikes me as requiring a lot of invention from the viewer to get to a predetermined preferred result. The simplest interpretation of the original trilogy is that the Skywalker line is special, for reasons of both destiny and Force sensitivity. A more egalitarian interpretation might be fun (if a little tortured), but I don't think it was Lucas's intent to say that Han or Chewie or any given Jawa could have been trained as a Jedi if they'd felt like it. Some people are stronger in the Force; it may not be fair, but it's the plainest interpretation of the films.

"The Force runs strong in my family."

I agree with your general interpretation, it's the one that requires the least amount of interpolated explanation on the part of the viewer. However, Midichlorians are more incestuous than a number. They represent part of a difference in theme from the old trilogy to the new. They do sort of wreck the general spiritual tone, and run things in a new direction. The Force is very personal in the original trilogy. Yoda personifies it, he's on intimate terms with it. The Force as a spiritual metaphor worked best when it was at it's most mysterious. We might get themes clarified, but there was never any mechanical elaboration. We always talked about how it interacted with someone in a relationship. Vader was "seduced." "The Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is." The Emperor tells Luke, he's no match for the Dark Side. In the new trilogy, things are more utilitarian. Mace Windu bemoans that they themselves have lost the ability to see the future. Sideous howls about simple power. Yoda groans, of all things, when he struggles to move the pillar in AotC. What was once simply a matter of do or do not, becomes very much a matter of try, the struggle. Magical mitochondria add a biologically deterministic aspect that influenced this. In the old EU, Luke is stronger at 60 than he was at 30. He's a sage. He's more enlightened now than he was then. In the post prequel world, Force users can now be codified. They peak, and don't go any further. Starkiller does not simply have greater spiritual affinity than his father, he's already more powerful at the ripe old age of 7. Vader was crippled from his full potential, thanks to burns and limb loss. It's all rather disenchanting.

[TheThan]

When Luke says "I can't kill my own father" Ben responds "Then the Emperor has already won".

Obi-Wan has a history of speaking in half-truths and outright lies when it comes to telling Luke about stuff. Even if it’s stuff he ought to know all about. So we don’t really know what Obi-wan means unless we take it literally. In which case, he’s completely right. The emperor won back in episode I, when he became supreme chancellor.


Right—not everybody is Force-sensitive. That's all I'm saying. The Star Wars 1999 guy says, "...we can briefly dismantle the myth of 'Force potential,' and that the only restrictions to being trained as a Jedi are those of age, imagination, and hard work." I don't think that's supported in the original trilogy; you and I agree that some people have Force sensitivity and some don't. I also think some are more sensitive than others, and that Midichlorians are just a way of attaching a number to that scale. No "Harry Pottering" necessary.

What I mean by force sensitive is that they are open to it and aware of in ways that a typical person isn’t. I was not trying to imply that Luke was a special snowflake. The only thing that makes him unique is his connection to Vader. Its Luke’s personality that gives him the ability to learn the ways of the force and “be strong in the force”, not his blood vessel count.

Han for example doesn’t believe in the force, (hokey religions and ancient weapons). That means he can’t learn it. Later when he starts to open up a little, he still doesn’t believe strongly enough to able to be trained as a Jedi. After he says “may the force be with you” to Luke, Han immediately goes on the defensive when Chewie gives Han a look. This indicates that he's been influence by Luke and Obi-Wan a little bit, but not enough to make that full leap of faith.

[Zrak]

Obi-Wan has a history of speaking in half-truths and outright lies when it comes to telling Luke about stuff. Even if it’s stuff he ought to know all about. So we don’t really know what Obi-wan means unless we take it literally. In which case, he’s completely right. The emperor won back in episode I, when he became supreme chancellor.

"I guess, if it's that important, I must kill my own father."

"Then the Emperor's still already won. I'm just saying, he's the Emperor. You don't get to be Emperor of something by losing the war. Think it through, Luke."

[Aotrs Commander]

"I guess, if it's that important, I must kill my own father."

"Then the Emperor's still already won. I'm just saying, he's the Emperor. You don't get to be Emperor of something by losing the war. Think it through, Luke."

That thought amuses me way more than it should...

[jere7my]

What I mean by force sensitive is that they are open to it and aware of in ways that a typical person isn’t. I was not trying to imply that Luke was a special snowflake. The only thing that makes him unique is his connection to Vader. Its Luke’s personality that gives him the ability to learn the ways of the force and “be strong in the force”, not his blood vessel count.

Fair enough. "Force-sensitive" has a specific meaning in the Star Wars lexicon, which is why I was confused.

People are welcome to their own interpretations of fictional works. All I can say is that it always seemed to me that some people could be Jedi and some couldn't, ever since I saw Star Wars in the theater in 1977. Luke is a special snowflake; he's the callow farmboy who learns he has magic powers, in a way Biggs doesn't. When he tells Leia "The Force runs strong in my family," he's not saying "My family's pretty open-minded"; he's saying the Skywalker bloodline is more attuned to the Force than most.

I do understand the argument that midichlorians turned something mystical into something technical. To me, it made sense that the Jedi at the height of their power would have a more quantitative, workmanlike approach to the Force than a little green guy who'd lived alone in a swamp for twenty years with no technology, but I can see why some folks would find it jarring. (I'm open to the idea that that quantification was part of the Jedi's downfall—that by attaching numbers to the Force they lost touch with what was important about it, and Yoda rediscovered it living alone in the swamps of Dagobah. The Jedi of the prequels were doing a lot of things wrong, and one of them was focusing on Anakin's midichlorian levels instead of his looming capacity for darkness.)

[Mando Knight]

When he tells Leia "The Force runs strong in my family," he's not saying "My family's pretty open-minded"; he's saying the Skywalker bloodline is more attuned to the Force than most.

"Open-minded," after all, isn't usually a word one would associate with Vader...

[jere7my]

"Open-minded," after all, isn't usually a word one would associate with Vader...

Depends whether his helmet is on or off.

[Wookieetank]

Depends whether his helmet is on or off.

Bwa hahaha. This made me chuckle, thank you for that :smallbiggrin:

[TheThan]

Fair enough. "Force-sensitive" has a specific meaning in the Star Wars lexicon, which is why I was confused.

People are welcome to their own interpretations of fictional works. All I can say is that it always seemed to me that some people could be Jedi and some couldn't, ever since I saw Star Wars in the theater in 1977. Luke is a special snowflake; he's the callow farmboy who learns he has magic powers, in a way Biggs doesn't. When he tells Leia "The Force runs strong in my family," he's not saying "My family's pretty open-minded"; he's saying the Skywalker bloodline is more attuned to the Force than most.

I do understand the argument that midichlorians turned something mystical into something technical. To me, it made sense that the Jedi at the height of their power would have a more quantitative, workmanlike approach to the Force than a little green guy who'd lived alone in a swamp for twenty years with no technology, but I can see why some folks would find it jarring. (I'm open to the idea that that quantification was part of the Jedi's downfall—that by attaching numbers to the Force they lost touch with what was important about it, and Yoda rediscovered it living alone in the swamps of Dagobah. The Jedi of the prequels were doing a lot of things wrong, and one of them was focusing on Anakin's midichlorian levels instead of his looming capacity for darkness.)


That’s the unfortunate thing. How I interpret it is clearly not how Lucas interprets it, since it’s his own writing. I would much rather The Force be a more spiritual thing that just “oh I have this crap in my blood that makes me more special than you”. it makes me think he should go get checked out.
The force in the original trilogy is depicted as a spiritual thing,
“I don’t believe it,”
“that is why you fail”
“The force will be with you, always”

And so forth. In the prequels, the force is depicted as nothing more than a tool… you know maybe I’m not giving Lucas enough credit. Maybe he did it intentionally. Maybe he’s trying to show what can happen when faith atrophies into ritual. Or i could totally be grasping at straws here.



Depends whether his helmet is on or off.
Hahahahah

[Kitten Champion]

Come to think of it, if he didn't include midichlorians in The Phantom Menace, we could interpret the presumption of Jedi being a cabal genetically superior Knights Templar/Astro Samurai as merely a facet of their culture and... possibly wrong.

It's a shame Lucas felt the need to clarify and solidify what's so much more interesting when left vague and fluid.

[Lord Raziere]

Eh, I actually don't buy the Force as a spiritual thing. my interpretation of the Jedi and the Force is that the Dark Side only exists because the Jedi believe it to be so. they're actually shooting themselves in the foot with their own philosophy, because they believe they have to go to such extreme measures to wield the Force properly, when they start deviating, they starting believing that they are "falling" and thus the Force reacts to their belief and makes it come true. and that the whole falling to the Dark Side thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy, as new padawans are brought in and chafe against the harsh restrictions imposed upon them when they desire normal lives with connections, and thus when they rebel, the only alternative they see are the sith philosophy, which was quite possibly once more reasonable, but my interpretation of that is that the first Sith was just a sect that the Jedi considered heresy because it was treating the Force in a way that clashed with their own beliefs and thus when the Jedi kept wiping them out, the Sith grew ever more extreme in their methods until they became monstrous in order to fight against the Jedi.

and that basically this whole Jedi-Sith back and forth is because the Jedi's own flaws and being unwilling to change their methods to better suit humanoid nature keeps causing Sith to happen.

The Force to me, is actually just that- just another Force like gravity or magnetism, manipulable by your mind. the Force only has Light and Dark Sides because the Jedi think it does.

[Hyena]

Sorry, but shades of grey morality does not work, when you have either paragons of virtue or puppy-kicking villains.

[Fragenstein]

Sorry, but shades of grey morality does not work, when you have either paragons of virtue or puppy-kicking villains.

That's why I never wanted to be a Jedi or Sith lord as a kid. Even though I'd have given my right arm for a lightsaber, both were unrealistically extreme in their beliefs. Neither seemed to be seeking balance, but rather a complete shift to their own side.

My favorite template to play in the early Star Wars RPGs was always Alien Student of the Force. Because then you could formulate your own philosophy and to hell with all this Jedi/Sith opposition.

[137beth]

Eh, I actually don't buy the Force as a spiritual thing. my interpretation of the Jedi and the Force is that the Dark Side only exists because the Jedi believe it to be so. they're actually shooting themselves in the foot with their own philosophy, because they believe they have to go to such extreme measures to wield the Force properly, when they start deviating, they starting believing that they are "falling" and thus the Force reacts to their belief and makes it come true. and that the whole falling to the Dark Side thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy, as new padawans are brought in and chafe against the harsh restrictions imposed upon them when they desire normal lives with connections, and thus when they rebel, the only alternative they see are the sith philosophy, which was quite possibly once more reasonable, but my interpretation of that is that the first Sith was just a sect that the Jedi considered heresy because it was treating the Force in a way that clashed with their own beliefs and thus when the Jedi kept wiping them out, the Sith grew ever more extreme in their methods until they became monstrous in order to fight against the Jedi.

and that basically this whole Jedi-Sith back and forth is because the Jedi's own flaws and being unwilling to change their methods to better suit humanoid nature keeps causing Sith to happen.

The Force to me, is actually just that- just another Force like gravity or magnetism, manipulable by your mind. the Force only has Light and Dark Sides because the Jedi think it does.
Interesting idea, it actually makes sense! More sense than SW itself does, at any rate.

That's why I never wanted to be a Jedi or Sith lord as a kid. Even though I'd have given my right arm for a lightsaber, both were unrealistically extreme in their beliefs. Neither seemed to be seeking balance, but rather a complete shift to their own side.

My favorite template to play in the early Star Wars RPGs was always Alien Student of the Force. Because then you could formulate your own philosophy and to hell with all this Jedi/Sith opposition.
Well, they were hoping for someone to "bring balance to the force". Of course their notion of "balance" was "completely destroying one side".

[Lord Raziere]

Sorry, but shades of grey morality does not work, when you have either paragons of virtue or puppy-kicking villains.

well thats why the theory proposes that the beliefs of the Jedi is making the Force twist their minds.

like, the Jedi are only becoming paragons of virtue because they believe that you have to be to use the Force, and thus the Force twists and alters them until they become what they believe they are.

likewise, you only become Sith, because you believe that your becoming one, because you believe that what you doing is going against the Code of the Jedi and therefore wrong, therefore your perceiving yourself falling to the Dark Side and thus the Force starts twisting your own mind to make that belief come true until you become a puppy-kicking villain.

because as the original movies show, you wield the Force because you believe in it. and if you believe that the Force can only be wielded safely by becoming a paragon of virtue and try your hardest to become that, wouldn't that make you subconsciously start using the Force, just a little, upon yourself to become so? like your not even aware of it, your already being taught to become one with the Force and use it to enhance all your actions, so a unconscious side effect of the training is making you use the Force on yourself to alter your mind into a paragon of morality, or a supervillain isn't that far-fetched.

and if the so called Dark Side twists your mind into evil, why not have the so-called Light Side twist your mind into good? if the Force has an affect on your mental state, there is no reason why it would be limited to a certain path of using it.

[Mystic Muse]

In a fair number of morality systems, mind control is always evil, so if Star Wars uses something similar (Which of course is up to interpretation) then the light side by definition wouldn't use it, if it's the good side.

Then again, mind trick, so I dunno.

[Lord Raziere]

which is exactly why I say the Light/Dark Side thing doesn't actually exist? If a Jedi could use mind trick all they want without repercussion on anyone and then turn around get dark side points for blasting lightning at a bunch of scum who deserved it and would die anyways to blaster fire or your lightsaber, then its just feeding into the Jedi's belief that they are good, becoming moral paragons by their own definition of the term, and not what an actual good person would be. if the Force really was a moral agent, the mind trick thing should be dark side as well, but we have a Jedi using it for something as trivial as making a guy stop selling drugs when its not even apart of the mission statement or anything, and no Sith ever using mind trick to my knowledge so...either the Force has a different view of morality or it has no view of morality at all, which is more likely since we have no indication that the Force is actually alive, just that it affects living things....

that and there are a bunch of force using traditions out there that do perfectly well without the Jedi bothering them, as well as Grey Jedi like Jolee Bindo who seems a pretty swell guy, as well as evidence that loner Jedi have done pretty well for themselves despite being ignorant of the Jedi Code so.....I dunno, seems pretty evident to me that the Jedi and the Sith are the ones causing the problems here.

[Spiryt]

In a fair number of morality systems, mind control is always evil, so if Star Wars uses something similar (Which of course is up to interpretation) then the light side by definition wouldn't use it, if it's the good side.

Then again, mind trick, so I dunno.

Well, mind control may be evil, but there are intents, etc. after all. I don't remember all uses, but in most famous one, mind trick was pretty much self defence - being recognised really wouldn't end well for them.

[Psyren]

Why is Wedge not coming back (http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/wedge-antilles-coming-back-star-wars-episode-vii/) a big deal? From what I gather he has a big role in the EU or something? But he's barely there in the movie so I don't blame him. Plus if they're tossing out most of the EU anyway it wouldn't make sense to bring somebody back based on his EU role anyway.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Why is Wedge not coming back (http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/wedge-antilles-coming-back-star-wars-episode-vii/) a big deal? From what I gather he has a big role in the EU or something? But he's barely there in the movie so I don't blame him. Plus if they're tossing out most of the EU anyway it wouldn't make sense to bring somebody back based on his EU role anyway.
I believe he was originally the only character to appear in all three OT movies? So that's his claim to fame.

[t209]

So will the Extended storyline--which the Rebels having to fight 10 years of grueling campaign against the Empire remnants--be canon? And Coruscant was screwed over too.

[Grif]

I believe he was originally the only character to appear in all three OT movies? So that's his claim to fame.

More to the point, he was also one of the few "nameless" Alliance soldier that actually didn't die onscreen. :smalltongue:

[Fragenstein]

In a fair number of morality systems, mind control is always evil, so if Star Wars uses something similar (Which of course is up to interpretation) then the light side by definition wouldn't use it, if it's the good side.

Then again, mind trick, so I dunno.

At least one of the novelizations had Luke feeling guilty and a tug towards the dark side every time he used his Jedi Mind Trick. Even when his motives were pure. I believe it was an attempt to explain why he used it so sparingly, and he actively wondered why Ben hadn't warned him about that the first time it was demonstrated.

But that was either broad EU material or an official novel of one of the OT films. So I doubt it'll carry much weight beyond the author's own thoughtful insights.

[hamishspence]

So will the Extended storyline--which the Rebels having to fight 10 years of grueling campaign against the Empire remnants--be canon? And Coruscant was screwed over too.

At the moment, no - it's specifically "Legends".

They might recanonize some of it after Episode VII comes out - but I doubt it.

[Noldo]

Interesting idea, it actually makes sense! More sense than SW itself does, at any rate.

Well, they were hoping for someone to "bring balance to the force". Of course their notion of "balance" was "completely destroying one side".

There was a (most likely fanfic) story concerning the balance of the Force, where Yoda and Windu were discussing the matter over coffe-like beverage. Windu was demonstrating the idea of balance by showing white milk(-like beverage) and dark coffee(-like beverage), one representing the light side and the other the dark side. Mixing them both into a single cup, Windu demonstrated that this is balance, for neither could no longer be separated.

Yoda put on table two brown sugar(-like) pieces and poured next to them cup of white sugar(-like) pieces. Then he removed all but two of the white pieces, stating that this is also balance.

[hamishspence]

There was a (most likely fanfic) story concerning the balance of the Force, where Yoda and Windu were discussing the matter over coffe-like beverage. Windu was demonstrating the idea of balance by showing white milk(-like beverage) and dark coffee(-like beverage), one representing the light side and the other the dark side. Mixing them both into a single cup, Windu demonstrated that this is balance, for neither could no longer be separated.

Yoda put on table two brown sugar(-like) pieces and poured next to them cup of white sugar(-like) pieces. Then he removed all but two of the white pieces, stating that this is also balance.

That would be Force Fiction - an Infinities story - part of the Star Wars Tales series:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Fiction

[Bulldog Psion]

I always figured that Anakin and Padme should have taken off on their own. Anakin, since he was supposed to be the Chosen One and thus extra-bad*** or whatever, should have left a message behind: "I'm not going to meddle in your Jedi and Sith foolishness on either one side or the other. But if I sense any of you in my vicinity, with your attention focused on me, I will kill you. May the Force be with you, and do not seek us."

After all, Count Dooku was evidently a former Jedi, yet it took a while for them accept that he was a Sith. There was no manhunt for him. So, even canonically, there was evidence that a powerful force user could refuse to join the main factions, or even part of one and then quit, and yet be left alone to pursue their own purposes.

[Mando Knight]

Why is Wedge not coming back (http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/wedge-antilles-coming-back-star-wars-episode-vii/) a big deal? From what I gather he has a big role in the EU or something? But he's barely there in the movie so I don't blame him. Plus if they're tossing out most of the EU anyway it wouldn't make sense to bring somebody back based on his EU role anyway.

Wedge is the Boba Fett of the Light Side. In the movies he's just a recurring set piece character, but in the EU he's one of the most competent non-Force-users of all time.

[russdm]

I think this should be mentioned strongly because it bears a lot of standing to the discussion:

The Light Side is not Good, but is formed/powered by Positive Emotions (Peace, Calmness, focus, self-control)

The Dark Side is not Evil, but is formed/powered by Negative Emotions (Anger, Rage, Hatred, Ruthlessness)

The Jedi are just as evil as the Sith in a lot of ways, but the Force and its aspects are completely Neutral. That doesn't stop the Jedi from trying to do good while the Sith tend to appear evil because everything they tend to do harms everyone else around them.

The Jedi have a code pushing them to act like noble paladin types, though in reality they come across as Stupid Lawful types.

The Sith have a code pushing them to be basically concerned with self and usually ends up coming across as some kind of evil, while sometimes being Stupid Evil.

[Clertar]

I've always found a nice parallel to the light side and the dark side of the force in the interactions between Li Mu Bai and Jen in the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon film.

[TheThan]

I've always found a nice parallel to the light side and the dark side of the force in the interactions between Li Mu Bai and Jen in the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon film.

The Legacy era comics have some nice Force Philosophy as well, it helps get you into the mindset of Jedi and Sith.
Basically the Sith bend the force to their will, while the Jedi bed to the will of the force.

[russdm]

while the Jedi bed to the will of the force.

Do you mean Bend instead Bed?

[Lord Raziere]

Do you mean Bend instead Bed?

No, he means they're Forcesexual. The Force binds all life after all. as for how they perform the act, what do you think midichlorians are for? Its why they regard Anakin as the chosen one: because Shmi has finally accomplished what the Jedi have been trying to do for generations: bear the Force's child.

[TheThan]

Do you mean Bend instead Bed?


No, he means they're Forcesexual. The Force binds all life after all. as for how they perform the act, what do you think midichlorians are for? Its why they regard Anakin as the chosen one: because Shmi has finally accomplished what the Jedi have been trying to do for generations: bear the Force's child.

Hahaha, yes I meant bend, although that does make slightly more sense than Lucas’s explanation.

[russdm]

Hahaha, yes I meant bend, although that does make slightly more sense than Lucas’s explanation.

Right. Was asking for clarity.

Something I think is completely true is this: Shmi and Qui-gon were lovers or Shmi was shacked up and simply didn't remember that happening. Personally I believe in the Shmi + Quigon theory because they totally were giving off "former lovers" vibes in that movie. There were times when I was wondering why the two didn't just start making out, they were displaying all the signs of people who had been pretty intimate.

[Wookieetank]

Right. Was asking for clarity.

Something I think is completely true is this: Shmi and Qui-gon were lovers or Shmi was shacked up and simply didn't remember that happening. Personally I believe in the Shmi + Quigon theory because they totally were giving off "former lovers" vibes in that movie. There were times when I was wondering why the two didn't just start making out, they were displaying all the signs of people who had been pretty intimate.

Would also better explain why Qui-gon was so adamant about getting Anakin trained as a Jedi. Thanks for the new head cannon! :smallbiggrin:

[Mando Knight]

Thanks for the new head cannon! :smallbiggrin:

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120405212255/starwars/images/thumb/5/5c/D%27harhan_head.jpg/250px-D%27harhan_head.jpg (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/D%27harhan)
:smalltongue:

Long-separated lovers does make a bit more sense than a Force-induced virgin birth.

[Wookieetank]

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120405212255/starwars/images/thumb/5/5c/D%27harhan_head.jpg/250px-D%27harhan_head.jpg (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/D%27harhan)
:smalltongue:

I'd be okay with that. :smallbiggrin: This thread has been making my day today.

[russdm]

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120405212255/starwars/images/thumb/5/5c/D%27harhan_head.jpg/250px-D%27harhan_head.jpg (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/D%27harhan)
:smalltongue:

Long-separated lovers does make a bit more sense than a Force-induced virgin birth.

In either the Attack of the Clones book or Revenge of the Sith book or Labyrinth of Evil, it has either Yoda or Obiwan postulating about whether Shmi was lying about there being a father and mentions a thought about "No one that I would honor as such" or it wasn't a person who would be counted as such.

Given that Shmi was a slave to a Hutt, doesn't it strike people that the Hutt would have offered up Shmi to some thug for some reason? In Fett's story in the Tales from Jabba's Palace, Jabba offers Leia to Fett if Fett wants to sleep with her. Fett doesn't but Leia acts like she expects for Fett to do that. Its part of Legends now, but it wouldn't out of place for that to have happened in her case. I don't think she would be part in any way of remembering any of the Hutt's thugs, mind you.

The only other solution is that Quigon was involved, because the only other possibility is Palps or my personal fan favorite theory, Mace Windu. Mace is just so awesome.

[jere7my]

Long-separated lovers does make a bit more sense than a Force-induced virgin birth.

It's strongly implied, by the story he tells Anakin in Episode III about Darth Plagueis's experiments with using the Force to create life, that Palpatine had a hand in Anakin's creation. (A weak corroboration can be found in the fact that Shmi has one of the statues from Palpatine's quarters in her house.) It could be that Palpatine was directly responsible, or that the Force manipulated Plagueis's experiments in some way, or even that Anakin was created by the Force as a counter to Sith manipulation of life.

[Psyren]

Wedge is the Boba Fett of the Light Side. In the movies he's just a recurring set piece character, but in the EU he's one of the most competent non-Force-users of all time.

Yikes. Ensemble Lighthorse? :smalltongue:

I guess I can see why he wouldn't want to feel any pressure to live up to that, especially if they plan on throwing out his EU appearances and he is left in a role that would disappoint EU fans and either be unnoticed by or outright puzzle newcomers.

[Kitten Champion]

It's strongly implied, by the story he tells Anakin in Episode III about Darth Plagueis's experiments with using the Force to create life, that Palpatine had a hand in Anakin's creation. (A weak corroboration can be found in the fact that Shmi has one of the statues from Palpatine's quarters in her house.) It could be that Palpatine was directly responsible, or that the Force manipulated Plagueis's experiments in some way, or even that Anakin was created by the Force as a counter to Sith manipulation of life.

I like that theory. It would be a stroke of sheer genius. Using the Force to rape a Tatooine slave woman knowing full well that nearly a decade later a Jedi and his Padawan would be sent on a diplomatic mission turned sour and would need to stop on that very planet to pick up a part for a Nabooan space ship of which there would be only one, naturally in the parts shop where said Slave and Palpatine's spawn would be labouring, thus allowing the Jedi to see this miraculous abomination's super-duper force ability (through blood analysis, apparently) and whisk him away after a complicated scheme involving gambling on anti-gravity jet racing so that he could meet his future wife - the Queen of a the Republican planet of Naboo - and be trained by said Jedi's formerly unwilling apprentice after arranging his master's death at the hands of Ray Park.

I suppose I really don't give Lucas or Palpatine enough credit.

[hamishspence]

(A weak corroboration can be found in the fact that Shmi has one of the statues from Palpatine's quarters in her house.)

She does?! Screenshots?

The Darth Plagueis novel has Plagueis decidedly panicky when he finds out about Anakin:


The fact that Qui-Gon Jinn had identified Maul as a Sith was to be expected; but Dooku's news about a human boy at the center of a vergence in the Force had come as a shock. More, Qui-Gon saw the boy as the Jedi's Chosen One!
He had to see this Anakin Skywalker for himself; had to sense him for himself. He had to know if the Force had struck back again, nine years earlier, by conceiving a human being to restore balance to the galaxy.

[jere7my]

I like that theory. It would be a stroke of sheer genius. Using the Force to rape a Tatooine slave woman knowing full well that nearly a decade later a Jedi and his Padawan would be sent on a diplomatic mission turned sour and would need to stop on that very planet to pick up a part for a Nabooan space ship of which there would be only one, naturally in the parts shop where said Slave and Palpatine's spawn would be labouring, thus allowing the Jedi to see this miraculous abomination's super-duper force ability (through blood analysis, apparently) and whisk him away after a complicated scheme involving gambling on anti-gravity jet racing so that he could meet his future wife - the Queen of a the Republican planet of Naboo - and be trained by said Jedi's formerly unwilling apprentice after arranging his master's death at the hands of Ray Park.

I suppose I really don't give Lucas or Palpatine enough credit.

Palpatine has some undefined degree of precognition. The whole plot needn't've been clear to him; just "Create a super-Jedi on Tatooine, then watch" would be sufficient. Things get weird when prophecy is involved.

That's really the only reason to include the Darth Plagueis backstory in III, anyway.

[jere7my]

She does?! Screenshots?

You know, I remember it being a topic of discussion ten years ago, but now I can't find anything about it. I'll let you know if I turn it up.

[Legato Endless]

Palpatine has some undefined degree of precognition. The whole plot needn't've been clear to him; just "Create a super-Jedi on Tatooine, then watch" would be sufficient.

But less compelling and satisfying as an explanation. Jilted lover and child by rape have better grounding. Backlash by the Force, while equally metaphysically aloof, is much better fodder for drama. Sideous panicking because his own meddling has come back to bite him is decent short story fodder. Tossing out the requisite components and watching the dominoes fall is the least engaging execution of prophecy in fiction and sounds like a clumsy retcon. It's too nebulous because it's basis is so ill defined .


That's really the only reason to include the Darth Plagueis backstory in III, anyway

Not really. The Plaguies story does a lot more. Plotwise, it gives Sideous the leverage to turn Anakin from the Jedi by dangling a way out for his beloved. Thematically, it illustrates the irony that those who gain great power frequently lose what they initially wanted in the process. It foreshadows this tragedy for Anakin at the end of the film. Characterwise, it gives us insight into Sideous and Anakin's friendship and contrasts the interaction between them with Mace, and to a lesser degree Obi-wan. Really, this wouldn't be a bad scene if the execution weren't so ham handed.

[137beth]

It's strongly implied, by the story he tells Anakin in Episode III about Darth Plagueis's experiments with using the Force to create life, that Palpatine had a hand in Anakin's creation. (A weak corroboration can be found in the fact that Shmi has one of the statues from Palpatine's quarters in her house.) It could be that Palpatine was directly responsible, or that the Force manipulated Plagueis's experiments in some way, or even that Anakin was created by the Force as a counter to Sith manipulation of life.
That...never occurred to me, and it does make a lot more sense. Thanks. It also explains why Anakin had such an affinity for the dark side to begin with: he was created by a Sith:smalleek:

I suppose I really don't give Lucas or Palpatine enough credit.

I thought the weak link in the prequels was the way the dialogue was written. It's not (mainly) the plot or characters, but the way the sentences are structured make the lines sound awkward no matter how you read them. I sorta think that if Lucas had given the plot or characters to a skilled writer then at least RotS would have been decent (I'm not going to defend 1 or 2, though).

As for Palpatine, I always assumed (I haven't read the books, so this might contradict canon) that the dark side creates overconfidence. That's my headcanon, at least. Palpatine took a lot of risks with little to no apparent recognition that they might backfire, and creating a super-jedi fits right into that pattern.

[TheThan]

I don’t quite buy this birthed via the force situation. There’s just not enough there to for me to sink my teeth into it. Shimi clearly doesn’t want to talk about it; when asked she literally says she can’t explain what happened. That implies a lot of different things depending on how you look at it. Heck off the top of my head here are a few:


shimi was raped and is still traumatized by it to give a satisfactory answer
shimi’s lover hurt her feelings too much for her to feel like talking about it.
shimi slept around enough that she legitimately doesn’t know who Anakin’s father is.
Anakin was conceived by the force and shimi can’t explain what happened.
shimi is trying to protect Anakin’s’ father for some reason (maybe he’s a Jedi we don’t know)
shimi doesn’t know how sex works.
Anakin’s father is dangerous and she thinks she’s protecting Anakin from him.


Also, while heavily implied, we have no idea for certain that Palpatine was referring to Anakin. There are billions of humans in the galaxy, it could be anyone. But since Palpatine trades in lies, he could have been lying to Anakin the whole time in order to give Anakin that one last push he needed to fall. It’s entirely possible that Darth Palagus tried to create life, but failed, and Palpatine spun that event into a lie to speed up Anakin’s fall. To quote Captain John Sheridan “Always plant a little truth in a lie, it makes it just that much easier to swallow". Palpatine even plants the idea in Anakin’s head in the form of a legend. Legends have a way of being less than 100% accurate about the facts.

To me it comes off as if that’s the direction Lucas wanted to go, but for some reason he held back. Maybe he wasn’t sure of fan reaction so left it vague in an effort to not step on too many toes. Anakin’s back-story is vague you know; his parentage, and this prophecy. It really comes off as Lucas being a gun-shy about Anakin’s background.

[Jayngfet]

Well there's the obvious logistical problem we need to address.

That is to say, Sideous is an old man who's obviously been operating publically as a politician for a while when Anakin showed up with his own grown apprentice, and meanwhile Anakin would have been born while Sideous is at least in his thirties if not older. Not to mention this godchild somehow being so hard to keep track of he winds up becoming a backwoods slave. One assumes a child made from the force would spawn in a lab or temple or some kind of combo and be closely guarded by the Sith for it's whole life. I mean yeah, the narrative draw is obvious, with Sith arrogance fulfilling the very prophecy of their death, but it's kind of weak and nonsensical as presented.

On Shimi as presented, I kinda have my doubts on most of your alternatives Than. Shimi is a bottom tier slave on a cartel world. She would know damn well where babies come from and all the details, if she wanted to or not. She never struck me as a fanciful sort of person, being just kind of worn down and beaten by life to contrast Anakin's rougher optimism(dreaming of escape and victory, instead of just taking what happens), so she wouldn't have any illusions about his father at that point if he's been gone for like a decade.

From what I can google up though, even Lucas doesn't really seem to be sure of who the father is. At the end of the day it never really mattered, I guess. If his father were a Jedi or Sith, they never showed up to claim him. If his father were that dangerous, he never tried to take revenge on whatever Tuskans Annie didn't kill and never hunted down the Lars family or Watto. If he was a convenient birth to stop the dark side, nobody else ever got birthed that we know of and he never came with an instruction manual.

Heck, at end of the day there's no real evidence to go off of any kind. We don't know where Shimi came from or what her history is before slavery. For all we know her dad was a sith, or a jedi, or some random mystic, or she was someone's science experiment they forgot about, or maybe female Skywalkers are self propagating and her mother never had a mate either, and we never knew because we only ever saw males do things.

[TheThan]

Never said all of the implications were good ones.

But yeah, you’re completely right. We simply do not have enough information to draw any meaningful conclusion of any kind.

[Bulldog Psion]

I kind of like the idea of Qui-Gon being his dad, but yes, there's nothing to go on at all. Which may be exactly what Lucas was aiming for -- the mysterious hero/villain appearing out of obscurity, with nothing but the vaguest and oddest rumors to hint at his origins.

In a way it's too bad that Lucas had his ham hands on this plot. In the right hands, it could have been something mysterious, terrible, and beautiful, like the Lord of the Rings, rather than a series of kludges and outright botches messing up some highly interesting space weirdness.

Anyway, another detail I would have liked to have seen would have been Obi-Wan zipping up his fly when he appeared at the top of the ramp in the Anakin/Padme/Obi-Wan scene. :smallbiggrin: Even though it would have actually been due to using the toilet after being locked up in a Naboo closet for 15 hours during the flight, it could easily have been misinterpreted by Anakin and given him an actual reason to impulsively force-choke Padme.

[TheThan]

Anyway, another detail I would have liked to have seen would have been Obi-Wan zipping up his fly when he appeared at the top of the ramp in the Anakin/Padme/Obi-Wan scene. :smallbiggrin: Even though it would have actually been due to using the toilet after being locked up in a Naboo closet for 15 hours during the flight, it could easily have been misinterpreted by Anakin and given him an actual reason to impulsively force-choke Padme.

Haha! That would have been great.

I would have also loved it if Palpatine simply opened up his desk drawer and retrieved his lightsaber from it when the Jedi came for him. I like the idea of Palpatine being all casual about it, like it's business as usual.

Palpatine: *sigh* are you threatening me? master Jedi?

[Mando Knight]

New news on the original topic: Lupita Nyong'o and Gwendolyn Christie have joined the cast. (http://starwars.com/star-wars-episode-vii-adds-academy-award-winner-lupita-nyongo-and-game-of-thrones-gwendoline-christie.html)

For those keeping track, that's two more women, one of whom is black.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Wishlist: Jedi Master Brienne of Tarth.

[TheOldCrow]

New news on the original topic: Lupita Nyong'o and Gwendolyn Christie have joined the cast. (http://starwars.com/star-wars-episode-vii-adds-academy-award-winner-lupita-nyongo-and-game-of-thrones-gwendoline-christie.html)

For those keeping track, that's two more women, one of whom is black.

That cheers me up. My interest in this movie has returned. Looking forward now to learning what roles they are going to play. If nothing else can be said about VII, they are fielding an excellent cast. If this movie ends up sucking it won't be the actors' fault, that's for sure.

[Jayngfet]

New news on the original topic: Lupita Nyong'o and Gwendolyn Christie have joined the cast. (http://starwars.com/star-wars-episode-vii-adds-academy-award-winner-lupita-nyongo-and-game-of-thrones-gwendoline-christie.html)

For those keeping track, that's two more women, one of whom is black.

Meh, those names have been floating around for MONTHS now. All this really does is make official what everyone already knew. The real question is if Nyong'os role is what it's rumored to be.

[Psyren]

Anyway, another detail I would have liked to have seen would have been Obi-Wan zipping up his fly when he appeared at the top of the ramp in the Anakin/Padme/Obi-Wan scene. :smallbiggrin: Even though it would have actually been due to using the toilet after being locked up in a Naboo closet for 15 hours during the flight, it could easily have been misinterpreted by Anakin and given him an actual reason to impulsively force-choke Padme.

You sir should be writing the prequels. :smallbiggrin:


New news on the original topic: Lupita Nyong'o and Gwendolyn Christie have joined the cast. (http://starwars.com/star-wars-episode-vii-adds-academy-award-winner-lupita-nyongo-and-game-of-thrones-gwendoline-christie.html)

For those keeping track, that's two more women, one of whom is black.

This is good news, but I'll wait to see what actual roles they're given before I get too excited.

[jere7my]

Meh, those names have been floating around for MONTHS now. All this really does is make official what everyone already knew. The real question is if Nyong'os role is what it's rumored to be.

If you have a source for Christie from before today, I'd love to read it. I've been following the casting pretty closely, and she was a complete surprise to me.