World without Wizards

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Alright so while this is not mine originally it is an interesting idea I might want to use for a campaign later.

A world were either you are born with magic or you are not (Harry Potter verse style). No Wizards in the I read a book and gained cosmic powers.

But we do like the idea of a tomb, the classic look of a spellcaster with a magic book or tome.

So since Sorcerers are the new big bad in the arcane field we didn't want to shaft them. So we suggested a Sorcerer's Tome class feature.

When at first level the sorcerer gains a tome of spells and knowledge. After selecting their spells known for this level the sorcerer can then add a number of spells equal to half of their spells known per level (rounded down) into the book. These spells can be the exact spells they have already chosen or they could be different spells.

The tome grants them a +5 bonus to spellcraft checks to determine the effects and abilities of a spell. (So if you didn't take Fireball and you added Fireball to the tome you gain a +5 to the spellcraft check when that goblin is launching orbs of fire at you to help determine the effects of the spell.)

Now also this allows the sorcerer to count the spells in the tome as spells known for the purpose of spell completion and spell trigger items such as a wand or scroll.

If a sorcerer adds a spell from his spell known to the sorcerer's tome he can cast that spells as if his caster level was 1 level higher and increase his spells DC (if any) by 1
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So that was spells this is knowledge.
By making a knowledge check with a DC of 10 for Humaniods & animals/plants and DC of 15 for monstrous humaniods and magical beasts, and a DC of 20 for all other types of creatures the sorcerer records or the tome records the information of that monster in the tome for further use. This allows the sorcerer to ID creatures previously fought and to recall (Ask for the info again if need be) weaknesses of a monster. This grants a +5 to the knowledge check to determine if this is a templated or altered monster of that previous type (Such as a vampire with the vampire lord template) allowing the sorcerer to determine further weaknesses or strengths.

Would this be a good idea to introduce? Have any further ideas?

[EisenKreutzer]

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just use the Wizard class and flavour it so they need an inborn talent?

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

The tome can only hold half of their spells known. A wizard can still learn EVERY SPELL possible.
They also don't fit with the innate magic of the world due to needing to prepare spells which makes no sense if your are playing in a world like Harry Potter where people don't wake up each morning and prep up spells they sling them on the fly.

[Kazudo]

How does this world affect divine casters who prepare their spells, since the majority (if not entirety) of them don't use a spellbook and know their entire spell list too.

[John Longarrow]

Gorr,

Easier would be to use the Wizards limited spells per day but allow them to learn (spell craft) any spell. Then you get casters with a lot of variety and you avoid the whole "But why can't I learn how to cast fireball?" type issues you would otherwise have.

This also keeps to the feel of a Harry Potter world without unlimited spells per day (which you would get with that world) and without having to use only sorcerers.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Using Harry Potter in the spontaneous casting example rather then learning spells. Anyway every character in there can cast spells without learning them if they desire it hard enough (Harry cast a shrinking spell on a sweater years before ever reading about it in a book, cast a spell to enable him to jump 3 stories off the ground, and a vanishing spell)

I don't really want characters who can learn every spell ever that is kind of why Wizards are OP to begin with.

I am fine with extending their spells known as well, I don't mind them knowing or being able to cast or use more spells but not every spell. Anyway if they wanted a spell badly enough they would add it to their spells known list. If they considered it a secondary value then add it to their tome allows them to still use a wand or scroll or staff of it.

[Kazudo]

You could do Sorcerers with the Recharge Magic Variant rules in UA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm). That way they still have Vancian magic, but depending on the spell they get the slot back which would help with the drastic narrowing that removing prepared spellcasters will create.

[MrNobody]

First of all, i like the "monster lore" feature you made!

Second, for spells, i suggest taking a wizard and adding the spell system and n° of slots of the Spirit shaman from Complete divine.
He has his book (which improves at the rate you want): every day, he selects form it his (smaller) list of "spells known", that can cast as a divine spellcaster.

You could still retain the rest of your idea, but in this way you have a system that (my thought) fits your idea giving the sorcerer a bit of Wizard flexibility.

Also, since you are thinking about Harry potter, maybe you should want to "import" some minor healing spell into the arcane list, more or less like bards.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

John the only reason I dislike that idea is the learning all spells aspect that a character could easily abuse. "Well then I go to the collage library and spend all my time spellcraft checking spells there." yes they can only cast at most 4 of any 1 spell but it becomes even easier to just load up on every spell ever and become OP as all get out.

I don't mind the recharge variant it has a nice little flow to it and would work well in universe. But again this is a variant for the casting system not the specific caster. Sorcerers still only know their handful of spells known and can cast only those spells known all day. Spells per day was not an issue.

Granting them something offset their limited spells known with a psuedo spells known list would be helpful because then they could decide what is first priority (Spells known list) and what is useful for a wand or other item but I don't want to waste a spell known slot on such as say Grease allowing them to use a wand of grease without a UMD check (yes they would make it with a high Charisma but that is not the point. If they rolled a 1 suddenly for some unknown reason the guy who has used the wand a half dozen times before suddenly can't)

Now I do say if they don't know what spell is on the wand such as a looted wand from a caster who didn't use it then yes a UMD check would be required even if they did know the spell because they don't know how much juice to give it.

The Tome also acts as a Dungeondex of sorts, allowing them to record and learn about each monster. If they suddenly are fighting it again levels later (Possibly months or years later irl) they have a go to excuse to why they can just look it up in their great big book of monsters. Also if you liked we could add a repeated encounter ability such as the first encounter only adds 1 weakness of the monster, the most obvious one but repeated encounters would allow for further details to be compiled. Especially if the baddie is something like a Lich, not only do they learn more about the Lich species but that specific lich would be recorded.

[MirddinEmris]

Is it a world where TSR still own DnD? :smallsmile:

[MrNobody]

Also if you liked we could add a repeated encounter ability such as the first encounter only adds 1 weakness of the monster, the most obvious one but repeated encounters would allow for further details to be compiled. Especially if the baddie is something like a Lich, not only do they learn more about the Lich species but that specific lich would be recorded.

I think that a similar feature would be too much: the player had to keep trace of every encounter, taking note of every creature met, how many times he met each... Being a caster (which usually means a lot of pages of character sheet), the player will end up having a character book instead!

For this you could mixing the "ancient knowledge" class feature from Archivists (heroes of horror) withthe "favored enemy" ranger's class feature, maybe applying it at first to to every kind of creature but limiting it only to checks for identifying creature.
You could start with a fix bonus on those checks (+3?) scaling the general bonus at a +1/5lvl rate and giving a cumulative +2 bonus to be spent in specific "topics" every 5 levels.

At 1st level, your mage has +3 on identifing monsters. He go on adventure, kills things, gain levels. At 5th level, after month on fighting undeads, his general bonus improves to +4 and gets a cumulative +2 to indetify undeads. Then he moves north, discoverying that the undeads are minions of a group of illithid necromancers. He hits level 10th and improves to +5 the general bonus and gets a +2 against Aberrations. He kills the mindflyers, but the invaded land have to be purified by the remaining undeads. He goes back, fights more, defeats the undead lieutenants, hits lvl 15: general bonus raised to +6, undead bonus improves to +4.

I kept the bonus quite low because with all the casting and all the powers given by the book having them too high could unbalance the class a little.

[ace rooster]

It seems odd to have tomes that are useless to other people, and the idea that rereading your notes on a spell you cast every day will make it better seems a stretch. Given that it is your own spell, you should probably be able to recite everything in the book from memory. The main point of tomes strikes me as being able to cast spells other people have developed, or ones you don't cast often. You are far less likely to remember those.

How about creating tomes as magic items, that allow you to supply a spell slot to cast a spell from them. Casting takes spell level times caster level rounds if you supply a spell slot of the same level, and spell level rounds if you supply a spell level higher than required. For some particular spells you could give the option of spending multiple lower level spell slots to cast a spell of high level, with each slot coming from a different caster for rituals. Maybe have the option to give up a spell known at each level to be able to prepare spells at one level lower than the slot that powers it, possibly with int substituted for the save DC. You would still need the Charisma to use the spell slot though. These would be your 'wizard' type casters, though they will still mostly rely on their core sorceror abilities; their 'signature' spells.

All of the above could require spellcraft checks.

Cauldrons and sacrificial alters could do something similar, maybe collecting simple spells into more complicated ones. You could make certain spells require a focus that is prepared in a cauldron. For example, phantasmal killer could require a gem prepared in a cauldron mix that required "detect thoughts", "cause fear" and "major image" all cast on it. Many casters would not know all the spells they need to prepare the components for the spells they do, so would be forced to rely on tomes or teamwork, without changing their casting in combat. Casters that do not rely on tomes would need to focus on a school or particular line of spells, and even then would generally need to form a coven... you see where I am going with this.

The magic system is very superficial, dealing only with the instant effects of releasing a spell in an encounter. You are free to give it some depth that requires the fluff you want, and you don't even have to change any rules at all. Maybe most sorcerors just use tomes to help them develop new spells, particularly the more complex ones. Some may be fluffwise less powerful, but make up for it by very good knowledge, and well prepared material components, hence ruleswise are exactly the same.

A good analogy to tomes could be boxing training gear. A boxer does not need any training equipment to box, and it is not important in the rules, but most boxers will use it a lot.

Also, for casting from wands/scrolls you do not need to know the spell, just have it on your list.

Hope this helps :smallsmile:

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Spell time is not really for spells you know but instead spells you might get on wands or scrolls and don't want to make a umd check on.

So say you don't add light as a spells known but you add it to your tome you can use a wand of light without a check. If you did use a spot in the tome for a spell known you gain a small boost in exchange for wasting and opening.

I follow your spell list are spells known not all spells in the list you draw from.