What is petrification worth?

[Fable Wright]

Everyone knows that the Eyes of Petrification in the Dungeon Master's Guide is unusable at the time you can afford it. When you have 98,000, a DC 19 Fortitude save is nearly useless, much less when you're able to spend that much on one item. But there's no denying that a multi-target multiple-saves-or-die effect is a powerful ability that can destroy people at early levels.

My question is, what is a good price for this effect? In a setting I'm working on, there is a faction of humans who are beginning to develop a petrification ability similar to a medusa, and I need to know how much this ability is worth as a portion of WBL. Going off the DMG pricing guidelines, 7000gp for the use of a DC 19 Petrification Gaze attack for 1 round per day (1/10th normal duration, item use restricted by alignment) is the baseline I've come down to.

I'm not sure that this is accurate, though. Is the ability to throw out a mass Save or Die 1/day at level 7-9 too powerful? Is 7,000gp too cheap even if it is okay for characters at that level? A Schema of Circle of Death, by comparison, costs 18,000-26,000gp. (On the other hand, the Schema kills people at a distance in a larger area, whereas the Eyes target every creature within 30ft of the user, and people can avert their eyes to try to avoid the save.)

So, what is a good price for this item?

[underlaud]

The reason it cost so much is due to the fact its basically "save or die". Yes a DC 19 is relatively easy at high levels but its an item that hits multiple people. Chances are some one will roll low.

Also look at the spells a caster of 9th lvl can cast. The base save or die spell is slay living, level 5th lvl spell so a 9th lvl Wizard can cast it. Targets 1 person. So an item that can do it 1/day as a cone is rather... broken if it is available right when a caster can get a 1 target "Save or die". Now take a look at the save of the item. DC 19. At say, 9th lvl a fighter with a 16 con will have a fort save of +9. That means the meat shield has a 50% chance of being petrified, that means the 9th lvl wizard with a con of 12 and a fort of +4 as a 25% chance of passing 75% chance of being a statue. Depending on the party make up you more than likely just caused a party wipe.

Save or Die items are expensive for a reason. Why would someone not say, buy 5 of them... 5 turns, 5 saves, percentage wise they will fail one of these.

As a compromise I would say instead of petrification make it do a Slow effect. This can easily be explained as partial petrification and still allow the party to well... not die in one fell swoop.

Edit: Spelling

[Fable Wright]

The reason it cost so much is due to the fact its basically "save or die". Yes a DC 19 is relatively easy at high levels but its an item that hits multiple people. Chances are some one will roll low.
I understand that easily enough. The problem is, the item is only affordable around level 20, when almost any enemy will only fail a save that low on a natural one. There must be some interim level between 1 and 20 where a DC 19 fortitude save will have a high enough DC to be relevant, but not so high as to overpower encounters. I'm hoping that someone can point me out to that level range, and/or suggest a price that will put the item in reach only to those characters.


Also look at the spells a caster of 9th lvl can cast. The base save or die spell is slay living, level 5th lvl spell so a 9th lvl Wizard can cast it. Targets 1 person. So an item that can do it 1/day as a cone is rather... broken if it is available right when a caster can get a 1 target "Save or die". Now take a look at the save of the item. DC 19. At say, 9th lvl a fighter with a 16 con will have a fort save of +9. That means the meat shield has a 50% chance of being petrified, that means the 9th lvl wizard with a con of 12 and a fort of +4 as a 25% chance of passing 75% chance of being a statue. Depending on the party make up you more than likely just caused a party wipe.
On the other hand, a cleric with the Undeath domain can cast Circle of Death once per day, which kills people in a larger radius, with a higher DC, at range, that you can't avert your eyes to avoid. A Gaze attack, if telegraphed, can be flat-out negated by closing your eyes or looking in a mirror, and given a 50% failure rate by giving the Gazing figure concealment.


As a compromise I would say instead of petrification make it do a Slow effect. This can easily be explained as partial petrification and still allow the party to well... not die in one fell swoop.
Would a round in which the eyes 'charge up', glowing and making the characters feel slightly slower/heavier (with no mechanical impact) work instead? At that point, the characters can choose to become Blinded instead of having to save (and if they're familiar with the effect, for only one round), or use other Gaze-attack avoiding preparations to be safe. Attached to this drawback, would the initial price assessment be accurate? Or still to low?

[HighWater]

Would a round in which the eyes 'charge up', glowing and making the characters feel slightly slower/heavier (with no mechanical impact) work instead? At that point, the characters can choose to become Blinded instead of having to save (and if they're familiar with the effect, for only one round), or use other Gaze-attack avoiding preparations to be safe. Attached to this drawback, would the initial price assessment be accurate? Or still to low?
Hmm, difficult. Being blinded is sucky, especially for casters who need line of sight to Target things. However, if the Classic Mirror Trick is going to work, or once the players figure out it only lasts for one round, this will probably turn your baddies into mincemeat if the casters still have time to act. (Walling you off, or some other line of sight-breaking effect.)

On the other hand, if the PCs get caught off guard, even if the save DC is 1, they will still fail 5% of the time. Don't know the size of the party, but a small chance to take out a much larger part of the party's force is statistically gonna hamstring the PCs at some point or another. The smaller the party, the more it's gonna hurt when it does. Especially if you feed them 5 attackers at the same time.

The real problem is that Save or Die is kind of a weird, and in many cases sucky, mechanic that is especially sucky for PC's (who are expected to go through a bunch of encounters, unlike their opponents). You spend a long time crafting and adventuring with a character, only for it to roll low on a single save and be turned to stone. Provided the party survives the encounter and is willing to un-stone you (and you didn't get smashed), it sets them back 4000 for a Stone salve, or 1650 for a scroll of Stone to Flesh (level 6) that the sorc/wizard needs to be able to cast (needs to be level 11 for wizard, 12 for sorcerer to auto-success, and that means she mustn't be the character turned to stone... and they have a sucky fortsave unless they pumped con or use a Headband of Conscious Effort).
Having cast Stone to Flesh on your statue gives you another Save or Die, as it requires a Fort Save DC15 to survive the unstoning process. Again a nat 1, or just a low save will kill you, requiring significant additional costs to undo thát.

Am I correct that this "item" is actually gonna be an ingrained racial ability of one particular race? If so, might I suggest you don't try to cut it out of their WBL, and instead treat it as the supernatural ability it is and have it affect ECL? CR7 Medusa has a Fortsave DC15 and 6HD, sure your ability is a bit weaker than that with your restrictions, but when the PCs get hit with it, they will probably not care it only works once. What should the save DC be? Well, according to urpriests awesome monster handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook), it's 10+1/2 racial hit dice+Charisma Mod. If you want to give your dudes class levels, that DC will be dangerous (I don't think class Hit Dice increase these Su abilities), but not a massive killer unless you give them levels in Sorcerer and have them max Charisma.
So, how much of an ECL boost would that be? Murky waters here. Regretfully, playing a Medusa has not been enabled, so no guidance there, but I'd say it probably boosts up the ECL by at least one to two levels if the DC is low and the gaze ability takes up a standard or fullround action, or 2 to 3 if the save DC is high and the casting time only a move or free action. This is just a wild guess, I don't have much experience with it, but it sounds like a potentially lethal encounter.

[Fable Wright]

Hmm, difficult. Being blinded is sucky, especially for casters who need line of sight to Target things. However, if the Classic Mirror Trick is going to work, or once the players figure out it only lasts for one round, this will probably turn your baddies into mincemeat if the casters still have time to act. (Walling you off, or some other line of sight-breaking effect.)
This is why I want to incorporate it into WBL; it isn't an encounter-ending power once you figure out how to avoid it, just a minor nuisance to deal with.


On the other hand, if the PCs get caught off guard, even if the save DC is 1, they will still fail 5% of the time. Don't know the size of the party, but a small chance to take out a much larger part of the party's force is statistically gonna hamstring the PCs at some point or another. The smaller the party, the more it's gonna hurt when it does. Especially if you feed them 5 attackers at the same time.

The real problem is that Save or Die is kind of a weird, and in many cases sucky, mechanic that is especially sucky for PC's (who are expected to go through a bunch of encounters, unlike their opponents). You spend a long time crafting and adventuring with a character, only for it to roll low on a single save and be turned to stone. Provided the party survives the encounter and is willing to un-stone you (and you didn't get smashed), it sets them back 4000 for a Stone salve, or 1650 for a scroll of Stone to Flesh (level 6) that the sorc/wizard needs to be able to cast (needs to be level 11 for wizard, 12 for sorcerer to auto-success, and that means she mustn't be the character turned to stone... and they have a sucky fortsave unless they pumped con or use a Headband of Conscious Effort).
Having cast Stone to Flesh on your statue gives you another Save or Die, as it requires a Fort Save DC15 to survive the unstoning process. Again a nat 1, or just a low save will kill you, requiring significant additional costs to undo that.
If the PCs encounter that group, I'm planning on NPCs having access to the Medusa's Kiss (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20060905a) spell, for 150gp no-fortitude-save-needed unpetrification. Given these local environmental variables, it essentially be one save to stay in the combat with a small tax if you fail, not unlike a well-placed God Wizard's spell.

Am I correct that this "item" is actually gonna be an ingrained racial ability of one particular race? If so, might I suggest you don't try to cut it out of their WBL, and instead treat it as the supernatural ability it is and have it affect ECL? CR7 Medusa has a Fortsave DC15 and 6HD, sure your ability is a bit weaker than that with your restrictions, but when the PCs get hit with it, they will probably not care it only works once. What should the save DC be? Well, according to urpriests awesome monster handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook), it's 10+1/2 racial hit dice+Charisma Mod. If you want to give your dudes class levels, that DC will be dangerous (I don't think class Hit Dice increase these Su abilities), but not a massive killer unless you give them levels in Sorcerer and have them max Charisma.
Actually, no. The item was intended to be a 'blessing' on the higher level priests of a heretical (Good) order of Aureon's Shadow from Eberron instead of an ingrained racial ability. As I believe that what's fair for NPCs is fair for players, I wanted to give them an option to join and/or gain access to the power, and losing levels for it isn't exactly fun. Which is another reason why I need some way to put it into WBL.


So, how much of an ECL boost would that be? Murky waters here. Regretfully, playing a Medusa has not been enabled, so no guidance there, but I'd say it probably boosts up the ECL by at least one to two levels if the DC is low and the gaze ability takes up a standard or fullround action, or 2 to 3 if the save DC is high and the casting time only a move or free action. This is just a wild guess, I don't have much experience with it, but it sounds like a potentially lethal encounter.
Eberron actually has given us rules for playing as medusas. They're LA+4, and their gaze is free-action toggle with free attack action from snake hair for an additional SoD on a full-attack. But I wouldn't give a player LA above 2 for the full-blown gaze, given how valuable levels are.

[HighWater]

Edit: warning! Big Wall o'Text


This is why I want to incorporate it into WBL; it isn't an encounter-ending power once you figure out how to avoid it, just a minor nuisance to deal with.

Depends on if you're going with the "power-up" time warning period or not, getting knocked out of a fight before it begins is always sucky and eating a 50% miss chance, or alternatively a 20% miss chance and a 50% chance you have to throw a. :smallbiggrin:


If the PCs encounter that group, I'm planning on NPCs having access to the Medusa's Kiss (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20060905a) spell, for 150gp no-fortitude-save-needed unpetrification. Given these local environmental variables, it essentially be one save to stay in the combat with a small tax if you fail, not unlike a well-placed God Wizard's spell.
It's still a Save or Die as the player is out of the fight and can no longer alter the outcome of the battle, it's more than a money-tax, it's a gametime tax too as a player has to sit things out and hope for the best. Certainly it's much like the God Wizard spells, but there's a reason they call them that. You have plans on at least making the Party Survived scenario more affordable though. Of course there's some concern with making a very limited lvl3 spell (limited as only medusas can officially cast it) broadly available, negating the use of a lvl 6 spell for one of its most important functions, but if they're going to be saving versus petrification a LOT, I do agree that that's the least you can do. :smallwink:
It does seem to involve hauling people to temples though, and the NPC necessity could be annoying (depending on how you DM this can be annoying or not a problem at all). Because turned-to-statues people are a lot heavier, and they won't just fit in every extradimensional space. Breaking something off in-transit would... Did you consider Medusa-kiss ointments? You know what, that wasn't your question, I'll stop talking about that!


Actually, no. The item was intended to be a 'blessing' on the higher level priests of a heretical (Good) order of Aureon's Shadow from Eberron instead of an ingrained racial ability. As I believe that what's fair for NPCs is fair for players, I wanted to give them an option to join and/or gain access to the power, and losing levels for it isn't exactly fun. Which is another reason why I need some way to put it into WBL.
Makes a bit more sense to take it out of WBL then. Good on the not-NPC exclusive, makes balance even more important though if your PCs may decide to get a piece of the action.


Eberron actually has given us rules for playing as medusas. They're LA+4, and their gaze is free-action toggle with free attack action from snake hair for an additional SoD on a full-attack. But I wouldn't give a player LA above 2 for the full-blown gaze, given how valuable levels are.
Yeah, LA is a bit stiff on WotC ratings, I wouldn't give that kind of LA even with the nasty synergy a sorcerer would have with it.


Now, on to your original question:
The item creation "rules" are explicitly a very rough guideline, illustrated by the "discount" applied to alignment-sensitive items which can be unfairly used to drive prices down while it's hardly ever a practical limitation. Don't be tempted to invent discount "downsides" that will never come up in order to make the item very attractive. If followed as strict "item cost rules", you get items that will never, ever, ever, ever be bought, and items that are just too awesome for their price. We need a new base to determine what might be reasonable:

Lets look at a spell that does something similar.
Flesh to Stone. 6th level, which means it's intended for an 11th level wizard, or 12th level sorcerer. The caster would also need a +3 in the casting stat (a 16) in order to be able to cast it at all, giving an item Fort DC of 10+6+3 = 19. Standard action. Basically the Eyes of Petrification you mentioned, except that's 10 rounds per day and Flesh to Stone is a single-target spell. However the spell suggests that this ability should not come up in player hands before ECL11/12, at least not with a save like that.

Another item that does something similar is in the MIC, the Turquoise Veil
Priced at 22,000gp, swift (mental) action (makes the item less expensive than it should be as this is generally "better" than a standard action, +, although casters often run out of swifts), takes up a body slot (makes the item less expensive as yours would be slotless, that doubles cost usually, so ++), immunises against the blue bit of prism spells (so that makes the item more expensive than it should be, due to always-on extra bonus... against a niche effect, giving -- is very generous), but it also has several important prerequisites:
"When you activate a turquoise veil, it turns to stone (as the flesh to stone spell) a single creature within 30 feet that failed a save against an arcane transmutation spell you cast in this round (Fort DC 20 negates). This ability functions once per day."
It requires an already failed save against a different spell (so that makes the item less expensive than it should be, +, maybe ++) ánd still gives a fort save of 20 (only one DC higher, but technically more expensive than it should be, -). It also targets a single person (so less expensive than it should be, +, possibly ++ depending on the range) and only functions 1/day (so exactly on the money). CL to make it is 11th.

So, 22,000gp plus five to seven +'s and minus 3 -'s, assuming you decide to go for the original standard action, no warning, type. Eyeball at 25k? That is probably not overpriced for a rocket-tag item.

That price is much more reasonable than the Eyes of Petrification, and with WBL at 66,000gp, an 11th level character could spend less than half its total wealth on the "item". Would he/she? Now that's a different question entirely! In order to answer that, browse through the MIC and see what else 25k can buy. Is the item better/worse than that? Would you take it on a Wizard? On a Fighter? On a Rogue? If it falls somewhere in the middle, you probably got the pricing right. If it struggles to compete with 20k, adjust downward. Don't think it has to compete with the very best items in the books though, if it makes the top 50% that's an indication it's priced decently. It's safely out of reach for level 7 though, stuck at 19k, or even level 9 (26k total).

Some items will "negate" it, such as the 9k Blindfold of True Darkness (MIC). This item only gives 30ft darkvision in return. Imagine a party trying to get around while none of them can see past 10 meters for fear of gaze attacks... Yeah I'm okay with the counteritem being significantly cheaper, as it's also a (significant) handicap.

If you want it available before level 11, you really should take the DC down and probably limit the effect to just one target, or really gimp it with charge-up times. At first I thought the charge-up would be a good idea, but I now think it'll make the ability completely useless if you have a BFC person in the party. Predictable+avoidable = not a problem, unless the PCs were doomed anyway. A fighter at level 7 will have a base fort of +5, so even with a few points from other sources, a DC19 is going to gut him often unless he significantly boosted Fort. Of course, at 11 he only has +7, but so much more wealth to compensate...

Long story short: yes, a mass save-or-die at level 7, that is widely available (even at half WBL-prices) is most certainly too powerful without extensive mitigating factors (that go beyond cheap unstoning).

Maybe consider a temporary "mass-stoning" effect (one round turned to stone, one round paralysed, one round dazed) with a lower save DC? After all, they are still very much developing the ability. You can turn it into it's more brutal form around level 11/12. Although at a significant WBL cost.

Hope that was helpful...

[Kuulvheysoon]

Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, isn't there a druid spell or something that causes targets to be turned to stone over the course of three rounds (or something)? Found it, it's called call of stone (Druid 4) from the PHB2. It gives you 4 (!) Fort saves or be turned into stone over 4 rounds (well, that's an oversimplification). IT only takes a standard action to cast, and you don't need to concentrate on it for the duration. That might be a good spell to base this item off of. You could even make the high priest (or BBEG, same difference) a item which gives true stone to flesh.

[HighWater]

Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, isn't there a druid spell or something that causes targets to be turned to stone over the course of three rounds (or something)? Found it, it's called call of stone (Druid 4) from the PHB2. It gives you 4 (!) Fort saves or be turned into stone over 4 rounds (well, that's an oversimplification). IT only takes a standard action to cast, and you don't need to concentrate on it for the duration. That might be a good spell to base this item off of. You could even make the high priest (or BBEG, same difference) a item which gives true stone to flesh.
Interesting.
It's not just druid, but Sorc/Wizard too. It's available at level 7, being a level 4 spell. Without boosting casterlevel, it won't turn you to stone at level 7 with one casting though as it only triggers 3 Fort saves with cl7 (it lasts 1 round/2 levels) and you need to fail 4 to turn to stone. Also, you can choose to just not roll saves anymore once you fail three saves, and instead eat the speed+dex penalty <-- nope, interpreted that wrong. You make the save, and if you don't succeed you take the hits. It's single-target like Stone to Flesh (so still no area save):

"The target must make a Fortitude save each round for the duration of spell at the start of its turn or take a cumulative 10-foot penalty to speed and a –2 penalty to Dexterity. If the target’s speed drops to 0 feet, it cannot move. If the target fails four or more saves, it permanently transforms into a statue as if affected by flesh to stone."

It's a more reasonable Save or Die, as it starts out as a Save or Suck. It doesn't really fit the Gaze-lore though, but hey, that could be adjusted... Making it a gaze attack can still be quite potent, although Level 4 means the DC should be 10+4+2, so only 16. As the spell doesn't hurt your FortSave, that's less awful... Hurts mundanes more though, as they rely on dex and movement speed more, generally... Still, it's something to consider.

Edit: also, that's a lot of dicerolling!

[Fable Wright]

Edit: warning! Big Wall o'Text
Excellent.


Of course there's some concern with making a very limited lvl3 spell (limited as only medusas can officially cast it) broadly available, negating the use of a lvl 6 spell for one of its most important functions, but if they're going to be saving versus petrification a LOT, I do agree that that's the least you can do. :smallwink:
It does seem to involve hauling people to temples though, and the NPC necessity could be annoying (depending on how you DM this can be annoying or not a problem at all). Because turned-to-statues people are a lot heavier, and they won't just fit in every extradimensional space. Breaking something off in-transit would... Did you consider Medusa-kiss ointments? You know what, that wasn't your question, I'll stop talking about that!

Hm. Thinking about it, a few scrolls on members of the order (as friendly fire will happen with an item like this) and a UMD check to emulate race would fix pretty much all those problems.


Lets look at a spell that does something similar.
Flesh to Stone. 6th level, which means it's intended for an 11th level wizard, or 12th level sorcerer. The caster would also need a +3 in the casting stat (a 16) in order to be able to cast it at all, giving an item Fort DC of 10+6+3 = 19. Standard action. Basically the Eyes of Petrification you mentioned, except that's 10 rounds per day and Flesh to Stone is a single-target spell. However the spell suggests that this ability should not come up in player hands before ECL11/12, at least not with a save like that.
Nitpick: The Undeath domain, in Spell Compendium (late 3.5e) does grant Circle of Death at level 9, and Artificers can get it from Sorcerer/Wizards at the same level. (Even getting it at level 7 off the Undead Domain.) Versatile Spellcaste Dread Necros get it at level 10. These are all late 3.5-isms, so introducing it at level 9-10 might not be a bad thing.



So, 22,000gp plus five to seven +'s and minus 3 -'s, assuming you decide to go for the original standard action, no warning, type. Eyeball at 25k? That is probably not overpriced for a rocket-tag item.
Hm. I was more thinking about it taking up the Face slot and Swift action activation, and there is a risk of friendly fire, bringing the analysis down to 2-3 +'s and 2-'s.


That price is much more reasonable than the Eyes of Petrification, and with WBL at 66,000gp, an 11th level character could spend less than half its total wealth on the "item". Would he/she? Now that's a different question entirely! In order to answer that, browse through the MIC and see what else 25k can buy. Is the item better/worse than that? Would you take it on a Wizard? On a Fighter? On a Rogue? If it falls somewhere in the middle, you probably got the pricing right. If it struggles to compete with 20k, adjust downward. Don't think it has to compete with the very best items in the books though, if it makes the top 50% that's an indication it's priced decently. It's safely out of reach for level 7 though, stuck at 19k, or even level 9 (26k total).
Competing up at 24K is the Psychoactive Skin of the Celestial Embrace, which 1/day gives SR 25 (meaning 75% spell immunity against level 10 party spellcasters), a few resistances, and a Smite attack for +15 damage as a Swift action. It lasts for 14 rounds. At 20K is the Ring of Wizardry 1, which is a highly valued item for Duskblade members of the order. Pricing it around there seems a bit steep. Back at 25k, we have the Minor Cloak of Displacement.

Also, there's the fact that NPC WBL is much, much lower than PC WBL. A level 11 NPC has a grand total of 21k to throw around. Not enough to afford the item in the first place.

However, now that you bring it up...

Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, isn't there a druid spell or something that causes targets to be turned to stone over the course of three rounds (or something)? Found it, it's called call of stone (Druid 4) from the PHB2. It gives you 4 (!) Fort saves or be turned into stone over 4 rounds (well, that's an oversimplification). IT only takes a standard action to cast, and you don't need to concentrate on it for the duration. That might be a good spell to base this item off of. You could even make the high priest (or BBEG, same difference) a item which gives true stone to flesh.
This might be a very good spell to base it on. Much less feel-bad when you fail saves, much more reasonable to save against, and making it a continued gaze would be feasible.

So. Brainstorming possibilities about the item. Going back to the original Eyes, we could make this 10 rounds/day of the effect. End the duration, penalties go away if you're not already stone. It's a standard Gaze attack, where each failed save gives you -2 to Dex and -10 base land speed for as long as the Gaze is running. Four failed saves over the course of the effect and you're stone. It's a simple effect, could be dangerous if stacked but isn't overpowering on its own. I'm eyeballing it at 12k, the entire WBL of a 9th level NPC and price of a Belt of Battle. Does this seem like a fair price? And would doubling the price to 24k for an unlimited-use version of the item be fair for or against the PCs?

[HighWater]

Hm. Thinking about it, a few scrolls on members of the order (as friendly fire will happen with an item like this) and a UMD check to emulate race would fix pretty much all those problems. Agreed. Add a salve or two, too, so that non-UMD mundanes can save the party if necessary.



Nitpick: The Undeath domain, in Spell Compendium (late 3.5e) does grant Circle of Death at level 9, and Artificers can get it from Sorcerer/Wizards at the same level. (Even getting it at level 7 off the Undead Domain.) Versatile Spellcaste Dread Necros get it at level 10. These are all late 3.5-isms, so introducing it at level 9-10 might not be a bad thing.
Counter-Nitpick: this spell, although VERY good against level 7 and 8 NPCs, becomes inconsequential to PC's of level 9 or higher, because it can't touch creatures of 9 HD and higher. It's very much designed as a mook-killer, unlike Stoning Gaze attacks, and originally comes in at spell level 6 Sorc/Wiz (that's CL11 for wizards). In your example, only Artificers (who are a bit strange) can use it against equal-level pc-class opponents for two levels before it becomes obsolete. Of course, through high op/cheese it could probably be accessed early, but Circle of Death is really meant to dispose of lower-hit die opponents and that's quite a different beast then stoning Gazes and Flesh to Stone, which remain a threat forever (even when marginalised to 5%). Although Circle of Death is an area Save or Die, it serves a different purpose (and it also has a 500gp material component). Also, the Save DC would be lower (10+5+2=17) than the Stonegazer when casting it as a level 5 spell from an item.

Face-slot seems fine to me. Swift action makes this item considerably more interesting for melee, the + I gave there was wrong though, I meant to give it a - (to drive the price down) but as you go for the Swift action anyway it doesn't matter. Risk of Friendly Fire is generally not computed in these things, and as long as your allies are all looking at your enemies instead of at you there is no FF problem, but I'll grant it to you for the convenience of a wash. 22k won't make it break the game probably.



Competing up at 24K is the Psychoactive Skin of the Celestial Embrace, which 1/day gives SR 25 (meaning 75% spell immunity against level 10 party spellcasters), a few resistances, and a Smite attack for +15 damage as a Swift action. It lasts for 14 rounds. At 20K is the Ring of Wizardry 1, which is a highly valued item for Duskblade members of the order. Pricing it around there seems a bit steep. Back at 25k, we have the Minor Cloak of Displacement.

Those are pretty good items, but they're not that much more powerful than this thing. The ring of wizardry doubles first level spell slots, the Stonegazer lets you cast Flesh to Stone (spell level 6) on everyone who is watching you. The psychoactive Skin can let you achieve a certain degree of immunity against spellcasters and a bit of extra damage, but it won't take any of them out of the fight immediatly. (And there are SR:No spells) The Minor Cloak of Displacement gives you a 20% miss chance (except against everything that negates it), which is pretty good, but the Stonegazer reduces damage by reducing the number of opponents, which is the other advised method of keeping HP damage low. I don't think it's very steep. I would probably consider it with a DC19 at ECL11, it has a good chance of reducing a hostile group of 5 to a much more manageable number for a SWIFT action. Means I still get to cast my favorite spell, start twirling swords around, or do something else that's useful. Unless the PCs often run into non-flesh opponents, I think the item wouldn't be a bad contender in this weight-category, and remember that it doesn't have to be the BEST, it just needs to be average, or just above average. It's not a problem if the PCs decide to ignore it, it just shouldn't hamstring the NPCs too much, which brings us to your next point.


Also, there's the fact that NPC WBL is much, much lower than PC WBL. A level 11 NPC has a grand total of 21k to throw around. Not enough to afford the item in the first place.
True, but remember that this is a blessing, not technically an item. It's quite conceivable that the NPCs got a significant discount for being insiders (or rather, outsiders must pay much more for the priviledge). NPC WBL is not just a source to stat out NPCs, it's also a source for player treasure, one of the reasons I initially suggested adjusting ECL instead. As this "item" isn't lootable (in blessing form), the PCs lose out on significant loot to sell. And remember that you are the DM, it doesn't have to be precisely by the book if it makes for a better game. These NPCs need this blessing, the PCs need loot, the item would be too cheap if NPCs had to be able to buy it at PC prices (who would then quickly grab it) and the PCs would be annoyed that these NPCs had so little "real" gear when the NPCs were charged balanced PC prices. Sometimes you gotta bend the rules a little to accommodate them.

I agree that a refluffed Call of Stone, or other gradual effect (see for instance the temporary-stoning I suggested), fits your fluff better as well as being mechanically more fun than having players and NPCs roll the same SoD's each combat. Still note that with this spell, the possibility of actually turning to stone does not occur until 8th level (where you must fail all 4 saves in a row) if no caster level boosters are applied.


So. Brainstorming possibilities about the item. Going back to the original Eyes, we could make this 10 rounds/day of the effect. End the duration, penalties go away if you're not already stone. It's a standard Gaze attack, where each failed save gives you -2 to Dex and -10 base land speed for as long as the Gaze is running. Four failed saves over the course of the effect and you're stone. It's a simple effect, could be dangerous if stacked but isn't overpowering on its own. I'm eyeballing it at 12k, the entire WBL of a 9th level NPC and price of a Belt of Battle. Does this seem like a fair price? And would doubling the price to 24k for an unlimited-use version of the item be fair for or against the PCs?
I'll think on the price tomorrow (brain is shot by now), but you have to consider: what happens when a PC decides to close his eyes for a round, or just closes his eyes after failing the third save? Without eyecontact the gaze is broken, does the timer reset? Gazing does not support multi-round interactions very well. Keeping it closer to the original spell (only a single gaze, then 4 rounds with a save... 4 Rounds will probably not kill anyone though, but making more rounds the standard is gonna up the inevitable killcount significantly, so there's some thinking left to do there...), or rewriting gaze-mechanics seem to be your options for this spell.

[Fable Wright]

Face-slot seems fine to me. Swift action makes this item considerably more interesting for melee, the + I gave there was wrong though, I meant to give it a - (to drive the price down) but as you go for the Swift action anyway it doesn't matter. Risk of Friendly Fire is generally not computed in these things, and as long as your allies are all looking at your enemies instead of at you there is no FF problem, but I'll grant it to you for the convenience of a wash. 22k won't make it break the game probably.
Actually, friendly fire is a valid concern. Quoth the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks):

Unless specified otherwise, a creature with a gaze attack can control its gaze attack and “turn it off ” when so desired. Allies of a creature with a gaze attack might be affected. All the creature’s allies are considered to be averting their eyes from the creature with the gaze attack, and have a 50% chance to not need to make a saving throw against the gaze attack each round.


I'll think on the price tomorrow (brain is shot by now), but you have to consider: what happens when a PC decides to close his eyes for a round, or just closes his eyes after failing the third save? Without eyecontact the gaze is broken, does the timer reset? Gazing does not support multi-round interactions very well. Keeping it closer to the original spell (only a single gaze, then 4 rounds with a save... 4 Rounds will probably not kill anyone though, but making more rounds the standard is gonna up the inevitable killcount significantly, so there's some thinking left to do there...), or rewriting gaze-mechanics seem to be your options for this spell.
I thought about this, and what I came up with is simple:
All penalties last until the end of the encounter (which, as defined in Tome of Battle, is after 5 minutes' uninterrupted rest), even if those affected close their eyes. New penalties do not accrue until you have to make a save against the gaze. When you suffer -8 Dex and -40ft movement speed in total penalties, you're stoned. Which means that when you're at -6 Dex and -30ft, you can close your eyes to avoid stoning, but at that point you're blind and unable to move in the middle of a battlefield. Or you could open your eyes and try a desperation attack at the risk of getting stoned.

[HighWater]

Actually, friendly fire is a valid concern. Quoth the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks):
Urgh, true, that sounds... broken, but it usually never comes up as creatures with gaze attacks tend to be immune to gaze attacks of their own kind (and they only fight PCs so it's just that one combat...). 50% chance on having to make a save when joining combat with somebody with a gaze attack in your ranks is... nasty. So nasty in fact, that the PCs probably won't want it for any price, and their opponents really shouldn't either. I'm sure the humans that developed this have figured out a way to limit the Friendly Fire? Turn the attack into a cone-effect perhaps? A simple pair of goggles to channel the attack? Putting on something only a bit more sophisticated than horse blinders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Horses_2.jpg)? I think this would qualify for having the creature "veil" its eyes for some parts of its natural vision. You can quite safely say when an ally will be "hit" or not. Frankly, without a way to limit it's Area of Effect, the only recourse allies have is this clause under Blindfold:

The opponent cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one’s back on the creature or shutting one’s eyes).
So as long as they keep facing the PCs, or rather completely face -away- from the gazer, they won't have to roll at all. Best achieved by putting the non-gazers in front, and the gazer behind laying down "covering fire". Or alternatively, put one gazer in the front line and make sure that he never looks sideways (he has to rely on others to cover his flanks).



I thought about this, and what I came up with is simple:
All penalties last until the end of the encounter (which, as defined in Tome of Battle, is after 5 minutes' uninterrupted rest), even if those affected close their eyes. New penalties do not accrue until you have to make a save against the gaze. When you suffer -8 Dex and -40ft movement speed in total penalties, you're stoned. Which means that when you're at -6 Dex and -30ft, you can close your eyes to avoid stoning, but at that point you're blind and unable to move in the middle of a battlefield. Or you could open your eyes and try a desperation attack at the risk of getting stoned.
As long as you're fine with PCs avoiding their Stony Fate through total concealment, or shutting-eyes-after-three-failed-saves, fluff-wise this would work great. Putting 10 rounds on the item is pretty much obligatory, or nobody will ever be turned to stone or even honestly believe that that could happen. The item is much less powerful now though, to the point where I have no idea how to price it. 22k is way too much for the new effect. I don't think Call to Stone is a good pricing benchmark either, because you can avoid having to make the saves quite easily. Basically, this looks like it's close to an Entangled (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Entangled)effect that stacks with itself, slightly worse at the start, but more potent as it starts stacking.

Entangled gives a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty on Dex, as well as halving movementspeed. It's a condition that can be inflicted with a first level spell on a pretty large area (this spell is VERY good for its level though) and even has mundane means: the humble tanglefoot bag (although that targets one creature). Although penalties disappear when the spell works off, you have your penalties disappear after combat as well, as long as somebody isn't stoned, in which case you planned a cheap unstoning. Basically, your original idea has been nerfed and is much more appropriate for level 7 now!

Let me emphasize that I like the new effect much better from a gameplay standpoint. It gives much more choice to the players, the risk is considerably lower and applied in a much more gradual fashion... It's basically everything a Save or Die should've been, at least one that will be attempted quite often. From a threat-perspective, that also makes it weak, so it can be made much more affordable. Still, the FF thing is an issue I recommend solving, because with FF on, this weapon hurts your allies about as much as it hurts your enemies (unless allies get to have their back turned, by having the gazer stand behind them, this provides interesting tactical options with PC melee dudes moving around the first line of enemies, making those face the direction of their own gaze-support...)
It's still harder on mundanes though, who really need their dexterity and movementspeed much more than casters, as well as being more reliant on line of sight than casters.

Pricing?
The Belt of Battle is much better. Although it's considered stupid-good for its cost, 12k sounds like too much for the new nerfed item (which should probably have a DC of 16, btw).
A search of the MIC reveals a bunch of items with pricings across the board (some really suck, yet are really expensive, while others are pretty good and cheap).
At 2k, there's the Bracers of the Entangling blast, which requires you to cast a spell that does damage, and halves that damage in exchange for an entangle effect 1d3 rounds, and some minor damage each turn 3/day (can be used on an AoE like fireball, but at a price). The Rod of Viscid Globs is basically 3/day tanglefoot bag up to 100ft, also at 2k. These are both strictly inferior to your item. The Bracers of the Entangling Blast is pretty good for it's pricing, though. Then a bunch of things come in at much higher prices, especially weapons seem to grant entangling properties at a very high price. More appropriate is perhaps the Thorn Pouch at 4,4k, gives entangle 5/day, or spike growth or wall of thorns. Swift, but a bit limited in location though, etc. etc.
Basically. I'm voting to eyeball it again, gonna shout a weird price now: 6k? Compare the item with other items of 6k. It's within reach of 7th level PCs. See if it holds up. Give the NPCs a discount (this makes fluff sense, and can't-be-looted sense).
Do not take into account the Friendly Fire problem, because having such a Friendly Fire problem will make this item unsellable at any price, except on solo adventures. (Having to have your back turned to the gaze of a creature works, in my opinion.)

[Fable Wright]

I'm sure the humans that developed this have figured out a way to limit the Friendly Fire? Turn the attack into a cone-effect perhaps?
I'll figure something out. Or the players will.

As long as you're fine with PCs avoiding their Stony Fate through total concealment, or shutting-eyes-after-three-failed-saves, fluff-wise this would work great.
Hm. Maybe add the ability to force a save against an afflicted target despite visibility conditions as an attack action?


The Belt of Battle is much better. Although it's considered stupid-good for its cost, 12k sounds like too much for the new nerfed item (which should probably have a DC of 16, btw).
Yeah, the DC is going down as it's based on a new spell now.

Basically. I'm voting to eyeball it again, gonna shout a weird price now: 6k? Compare the item with other items of 6k. It's within reach of 7th level PCs. See if it holds up. Give the NPCs a discount (this makes fluff sense, and can't-be-looted sense).
Hm. Thorn Pouch seems to be a very good item for comparison. Swift action activation, Entangle all opponents nearby for 9 rounds, and multiple charges to keep forcing saves. The Gaze's cumulative nature and forcing a save as an attack action is probably enough to increase the price by another 2-3k. I think 7k is a reasonable price, though there's no really comparable item for the price in the MIC.

[HighWater]

I'll figure something out. Or the players will.
I'm liking the horse-blinders idea, would make for a nice introduction "Three dudes storm in through the door, one of them is wearing what appears to be some kind of customised horse-blinders..."



Hm. Maybe add the ability to force a save against an afflicted target despite visibility conditions as an attack action?

Not a bad idea, though I'd limit that to forcing it on a single afflicted target. It's already pretty powerful as a swift, so make it impossible to hit the same person with both the swift and the concentrated attack. (Or you can stone someone in 2 rounds.)



Hm. Thorn Pouch seems to be a very good item for comparison. Swift action activation, Entangle all opponents nearby for 9 rounds, and multiple charges to keep forcing saves. The Gaze's cumulative nature and forcing a save as an attack action is probably enough to increase the price by another 2-3k. I think 7k is a reasonable price, though there's no really comparable item for the price in the MIC.
Thorn pouch takes one turn to take effect though (which, is among other things, for the user to get out of the way). I agree on 7k, but be ready to adjust it on the fly if it turns out more powerful or pretty worthless. :smallwink:

Edit: Turns out I never noticed the 3rd Ed. tag on your original post, while all my advice has been pinned on 3.5 sources. I don't think pricing changed all that much though? Oh well. :smallbiggrin: