Trying to come up with a challanging encounter with goblins

[slaydemons]

I want to challenge my players, I feel I have been letting myself be too soft and letting them breeze through my current encounters, they aren't super high level they are about 2-3 in level and its a relatively low op group, I have limited myself and the players to the players handbook 1,2, complete warrior and dragon magic, for now. Normally I would be what I think is a competent dm maybe a bit generous. And I think challenge should be quality not quantity so I am not simply adding a bunch of goblins in on at once. I personally was thinking since the group likes to mostly rush into combat have a guy or two come in from hidden walls and hit the party from behind encircling one of them as he stays back to shoot arrows.

[pwykersotz]

I want to challenge my players, I feel I have been letting myself be too soft and letting them breeze through my current encounters, they aren't super high level they are about 2-3 in level and its a relatively low op group, I have limited myself and the players to the players handbook 1,2, complete warrior and dragon magic, for now. Normally I would be what I think is a competent dm maybe a bit generous. And I think challenge should be quality not quantity so I am not simply adding a bunch of goblins in on at once. I personally was thinking since the group likes to mostly rush into combat have a guy or two come in from hidden walls and hit the party from behind encircling one of them as he stays back to shoot arrows.

If you're just looking for a brutish melee encounter, remember that Bugbears are often found with goblins. Also, a few in back tossing Alchemist's fire can't hurt.

But challenge isn't just in numbers. I like tossing in a few goblin women and children to make them question the morality of what they are doing, and also make the goblins talk to them so they don't just feel like another monster. Set up a situation where the goblins are against the heroes and humans, but are technically in the right. Alternately hostage situations, threatening to burn down villages, these are challenges that can take some serious brain power to overcome, especially with only the resources of low level characters.

[slaydemons]

I like tossing in a few goblin women and children to make them question the morality of what they are doing, and also make the goblins talk to them so they don't just feel like another monster.

only problem with this however is they killed a goblin chef who was just making a meal and defending himself. They are mostly chaotic neutral or are very new to the rp scene with one guy who has experience just not helping by being silly and forth wall breaking.

[Dorian Gray]

Traps, traps, and more traps. Not necessarily pits and snares (that's more a kobold thing), but play the whole "goblins are cowards" bit to the hilt. In a fight outside, they shoot and run, never giving the pcs a chance to get close. Indoors, they shoot around corners, close and lock doors, and generally never give the heroes a chance to stick them with swords.
And actually, throw in a couple pits anyway, just because. Goblins are evil- they're supposed to be *******s. :smallbiggrin:

[pwykersotz]

only problem with this however is they killed a goblin chef who was just making a meal and defending himself. They are mostly chaotic neutral or are very new to the rp scene with one guy who has experience just not helping by being silly and forth wall breaking.

Well, another thing would be to find multiple things the party wants and only give them the chance to obtain one, destroying the others or putting them beyond their reach. If they're just murderhobos and don't pay attention to the story, dial it down to treasure and prestige. Maybe the goblins have a small dragon's hoard down a hallway but it is heavily trapped and defended. When they reach it, the floor falls out into an underground river that sweeps most away, leaving just enough WBL for their conquest of the defended hallway. They can get the rest of the treasure, but the river sweeps toward the great goblin keep, defended with ballista and heavy fortifications, along with powerful goblin sorcerers who defend their city furiously. The head of that ruler would please the king of their kingdom enough to make them dukes.

[slaydemons]

Traps, traps, and more traps. Not necessarily pits and snares (that's more a kobold thing), but play the whole "goblins are cowards" bit to the hilt. In a fight outside, they shoot and run, never giving the pcs a chance to get close. Indoors, they shoot around corners, close and lock doors, and generally never give the heroes a chance to stick them with swords.
And actually, throw in a couple pits anyway, just because. Goblins are evil- they're supposed to be *******s. :smallbiggrin:

Heh, they have had one goblin continually escape their slaughter, so how about a door that is also trapped if they just try to pick open the door boom get hit with a big old trap? traps in combat maybe? like a grease or oil trap then have bug bears come out and beat up the crossbow hexblade?

[Callin]

Basically be sneaky and cowardly. Have them run and never fight fair. EVER

[slaydemons]

Basically be sneaky and cowardly. Have them run and never fight fair. EVER

Been trying to have them use tactics to gain the upper hand. so I will keep the never fight fair thing in mind.


Also side note, I have had a problem player in every game I have run, this problem player isn't so bad as at least he doesn't try to be a character he secretly doesn't want to be.

[fishyfishyfishy]

The player problem is a more complicated issue that should be dealt with out of game.

As for the question at hand: I suggest giving the goblins items like nets, alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, and thunderstones and try to use them effectively. A well placed smokestick will shut down archers and prevent melee brutes from charging (you can't charge through concealment). A couple goblin rogues using tanglefoot bags and nets can get off sneak attacks and flee when the opposition gets free. Use hit and run tactics and try to wear them down, and strike when they are unaware. You can easily wreak havoc on a low level party using goblins with NPC classes like Expert and Adept (with the occasional rogue or fighter thrown in for good measure).

[Darkweave31]

Try looking up Tucker's Kobolds for some ideas of how to make PCs fear for their lives with normally weak creatures... basic premise is turn their tunnel homes into a gauntlet that the goblins can defend very effectively from invaders using somewhat mundane means... oil slicks that they set ablaze with alchemist's fire, arrow slits that they can fire through without fearing retribution, tactical situations that are highly stacked in their favor, etc.

[Warlocknthewind]

1.Hit & Run, Sneak Attack, Thug fighter with Crossbow Sniper
2. Dense Woods
3. ???
4. Profit

[John Longarrow]

As an alternative to the others, you could put together a Goblin adventuring party that is hunting humans...

Two goblin Fighters lvl1 in studded leather with tower shields.
One goblin beguiler lvl 1 -casts from behind the fighters
One goblin warlock lvl 1 -uses eldrich blast from behind the cover given by the fighters
One goblin Cloistered Cleric - Group leader, buffs the others.

The party should be shut down a bit by two mobile walls that can cover most spots in combat (mobile terrain)

The goblins should ALL have ranks in move silent/hide. They get bonuses to these.

The goblins should ALWAYS stick to the dark / attack at night. Go team darkvision.

Play them as a team. They are sneaky, lethal, and organized. Write down 5 to 10 "standard tricks". Note that the cleric uses hand signals to direct these tactics. The goblins may also have a couple trained wolves with them.

[HighWater]

What is the party composition?

And yes, yes, yes on the suggestion that you let the goblins be mean. They are nasty little buggers, ambushes and unfair fights are the only way goblins beat anyone, especially when they don't have significantly higher numbers (something you specifically asked to avoid).

This means goblins will try their utmost to secure the following advantages:
- being hidden (surprise round, yay!), remember that total cover negates the need for hide vs. spot. Still let the PCs roll a spot check and if they roll they might pick up on the fact that there's something wrong. Edit: better yet, let the goblins "hide" something for the PC's to spot. A small box set with silver that appears to have fallen out of someone's pocket. When the PCs take the bait, the goblins hit them... hard. Cover also boosts their AC (which is otherwise pretty pitiful).
- poison (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Poisons), applied to weapons and arrows! Have your PCS try to save against some WIS, DEX, STR or CON damage with the understanding that more might follow in a minute.
- having the high ground! Yay, bonus on attack rolls, bonus on AC.
- ways of slowing the pcs down/incapacitating them: difficult terrain (should be easy when the goblins have the high ground) burried tripropes, pits, stones and logs ready to roll down. alchemist fire (remember that it -burns-), smokesticks, tanglefoot bags
- running away at the first sign of trouble, and MAKING SURE THAT WORKS, if the cover they hid behind is high enough to break line of sight for the PCs, the goblins can't be targetted. Give them mounts to use to get away. Basically, the goblins should run after the surprise round, really, and just lead the PCs into ANOTHER painful position they have carefully set up. Attrition baby...

That's just with unmodified goblins. If you add in a few with a single class level, you can really turn on the hurt. For instance:
- give them a bard (who doesn't start signing till the fight start, make sure he goes first in initiative (you can just have the goblins wait for the bard to start singing to start the surprise round)) to boost accuracy and damage.
- give them a druid for Entangle (which still slows the PCs even when they save)
etc. etc.

[Mootsmcboots]

This thread has been immensely helpful.

I was in a similar situation, lvl 2 party breezing through combat. I tossed a bugbear into one gobbo encounter, to try to rebalance difficulty...

I didn't go as planned. Colour spray downing fellow PCs, plus some CdGs. A PC died.

I have used an unlucky gobbo as bait from cover. Send one of em out to try and draw PCs to a more favourable position for the rest of the gobbos. A bugbear ordering him out into the open is how I went.

I'm a new DM, so the other suggestions in this thread are extremely helpful, making Gobbos more difficult to deal with without just adding more of them will be nice. The smokestick charge stopper is going to be a life saver against our charging enlarged cleric.

So thanks for this thread! I've not ran many encounters yet, but focusing less on what baddies are in the encounter, and more on what they do tactics wise, and item wise, seems like a more satisfying way to increase combat difficulty, while allowing me to get a feel for the scaling of combat difficulty, as one of my concerns has been going from too easy, to giving them a monster who just wipes the floor with the party.

[HighWater]

I was in a similar situation, lvl 2 party breezing through combat. I tossed a bugbear into one gobbo encounter, to try to rebalance difficulty... I didn't go as planned. Colour spray downing fellow PCs, plus some CdGs. A PC died.
I read it, that stuff happens, whether you CdG or not. Low-level characters are squishy and putting some muscle against them can kill them quick. It's hard to eyeball when you're new what will be a brutal encounter and what will be a cakewalk. The CR system is simply not accurate enough (and often wrong). Feel free to adjust the encounter on the fly when it turns out that you misjudged its lethality, you're not babying your PCs when you compensate for your own mistakes, you are giving them a fair chance to get out. That said, it was probably a veritable teaching moment for the sorcerer to reconsider Friendly Fire as a viable tactic.


I'm a new DM, so the other suggestions in this thread are extremely helpful, making Gobbos more difficult to deal with without just adding more of them will be nice. The smokestick charge stopper is going to be a life saver against our charging enlarged cleric.
Any difficult terrain (for instance, loose rubble, uphill) or other movement-reducer will stop a charge from happening (entangle also works for instance). Difficult terrain has the added bonus that it doesn't cost the goblins an action in combat to set up, as well as offering the PCs incentive to start flanking (which then tells the goblins to run for it).