Weapons for scout [3.5]

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. So since I've had recent inspiration to make a scout, I decided to make one. Thing is, they all kind off suck. I want to use reach and go into melee, and was wondering if anyone had any recommendations. Don't have my stats yet, probably will after I figure out what weapons to use. Should I burn a feat? Take a level dip? And as always, go nuts.

[Warlocknthewind]

Well, you should dip one level of cleric and taketravel domain and swap it for travel devotion

Weapon wise, a light crossbow and the crossbow sniper feat doubles your skirmish range and adds 1/2 Dex bonus to damage.

Take swift hunter, go ranger dual wield hand crossbows, do precision damage to things usually immune since they're favored enemies.

Win

[JeminiZero]

For scouts, I usually recommend Swift Hunter (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.sg/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html) builds, because it partly helps take care of their inability to damage precision immune types (Undead, Constructs, Elementals, Plants, Oozes, roughly in that order). Ranger also nets you the feat chain you probably want (either 2 WF or Archery) for free, comes with better BAB, and has almost as many skill points. You can even take the Trapfinding Ranger ACF from Dungeonscape, so that you can keep Search and Disable maxed out without relying on Able Learner. And the Ranger Animal Companion can be swapped for an Urban Companion (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), which can be an effective secondary skill monkey, and can even be combat capable (since it has your BAB and 3/4 your HP) if your DM allows you to apply improved familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) to it.

The only real problem you have is how to trigger Skirmish consistently.

[VoxRationis]

Cavalry archer. Use a composite shortbow and get a good, fast, reliable mount, which may or may not be your animal companion. The mount moves you without you having to give up actions for it, so depending on your DM's reading, you might be able to full attack and still get skirmish damage. The only problem is indoor environments. On the other hand, if you were planning on fighting indoors a lot, what were you doing picking not one, but two classes with strong wilderness emphases?

[Curmudgeon]

Cavalry archer. Use a composite shortbow and get a good, fast, reliable mount, which may or may not be your animal companion. The mount moves you without you having to give up actions for it, so depending on your DM's reading, you might be able to full attack and still get skirmish damage.
Very unlikely to fly, since the Complete Adventurer Errata explicitly prevent mount movement from enabling skirmish.

[Teapot Salty]

Cavalry archer. Use a composite shortbow and get a good, fast, reliable mount, which may or may not be your animal companion. The mount moves you without you having to give up actions for it, so depending on your DM's reading, you might be able to full attack and still get skirmish damage. The only problem is indoor environments. On the other hand, if you were planning on fighting indoors a lot, what were you doing picking not one, but two classes with strong wilderness emphases?

Where are you getting the two from?

[TuggyNE]

Where are you getting the two from?

Presumably the idea that Scout === Swift Hunter, which is a bit of an overgeneralization.

[Teapot Salty]

I do plan to go scout-20

[Manly Man]

I can promise you that a Swift Hunter build is much better. You even get features from both of the classes, all together in one package. You can still keep the feel of the Scout, but you'll be better at actually doing your job (precision damage, ranged combat, or TWF if you're aiming for that instead).

[Deadline]

Swift Hunter + Shocktrooper, if you are going to stick with your melee scout build. That will make the single reach weapon swing you get to take each round a doozy.

If you are just going Scout 20, I'd still look into Shocktrooper. You won't be able to get it until level 9, but it will still be pretty potent.

[Kennisiou]

If you just go scout, you'll want to look into ways to get swift movement so you can get multiple attacks in a round and still move, otherwise you either get just one attack per round with skirmish or you stand still and get full attacks but no skirmish bonus.

There's a lot of magic items that do it, some spells can accomplish it, the sudden leap maneuver counts as movement for skirmish purposes and you can nab it with a single feat, and travel devotion is a great feat.

[Kane0]

Don't burn a feat just in order to get yourself a better reach weapon, generally speaking a longspear is about as good as a glaive or ranseur and not worth a feat to use.

The spring attack feat chain might be worth it in order to move, attack then finish your move if you cant find a magical means of moving as a swift action.
Edit: alternativey i believe sudden leap acquired from ToB's martial study feat gives you a jump as a swift action once per fight, which would allow move, skirmish, move.

And don't forget to get some ranks in tumble or some other way to avoid triggering AoOs from moving.

[Dorian Gray]

You could take a level of lion totem barbarian for full attacks on a charge- can't hurt, can it?

[Garonak]

You could take a level of lion totem barbarian for full attacks on a charge- can't hurt, can it?

I second this.
My very successful build ended up as Neraph Scout 6/Ranger 12/Barbarian 1/Swordsage 1
Neraph gave +5 jump, and enemies being flat-footed when charged.
Scout gave skirmish and bonus speed
Ranger gave BA, combat style (two-handed (some dragon/dungeon magazine: PA, Imp Sunder, Great Cleave)) and favored enemy (with swift hunter I could skirmish) - also took the feats for spell ACF from Complete Champion.
Barbarian gave Lion Totem - pounce
Swordsage gave Cloak of Shadow - 20% miss chance if move x feet in a round

Weapon: Ripper (planar handbook - 2d6, 19-20/x2 piercing) - put Impaling (MIC) on it: three times a day, swift action, make next attack touch (which means when you charge you roll against flat-footed TOUCH)

Shock trooper to move PA penalty to AC (skirmish gave some back).
Combining it all with Leap Attack and Favored PA = Charge Demogorgon and gave 400 in dmg with one attack. Then came the extra three from BA and one from haste.

Alternatively: Raptoran Scout with footbow and Flyby attack

[John Longarrow]

You may want to dip 4 levels in Sword Sage (Keeps BAB, gives maneuvers that can let you move as a swift, Wis to AC and Damage) to allow you to get more use of your skirmish damage. If you go with a good stance you could also grab Shadow Hand (FEAT) to add Dex to damage for more fun.

[VoxRationis]

Very unlikely to fly, since the Complete Adventurer Errata explicitly prevent mount movement from enabling skirmish.

Hm. I did not know that; I don't have any errata. Frustrating.

[Vaz]

Just be an Outsider or Giant and get access to Martial Weapon proficiency anyway. Giants get Powerful build etc, while Neraph have Neraph charge. Combine with Pounce (barbarian level with Snow Tiger Berserker, ask to ignore irrelevant fluff pre-requisites).

[Zombulian]

Very unlikely to fly, since the Complete Adventurer Errata explicitly prevent mount movement from enabling skirmish.

Which we all know is dumb as heck. Actual historical skirmishers were almost exclusively cavalry fighters.

Anyway, whenever anyone uses a precision build I like to recommend dual wielding Crescent Knives from Dragon Magazine #275. I know you wanted reach but I mean... cmon. Double attacks.
Of course you could simply have Aberration Blood feat as well as Inhuman Reach for extended reach with a -1 on attack rolls.

[John Longarrow]

Which we all know is dumb as heck. Actual historical skirmishers were almost exclusively cavalry fighters.

Odd... modern infantry (at least since cartriage using rifles) is adapted from previous skirmishers (jager units). In fact, most skirmishers in history were foot troops since the expense of being cavalry normally precluded the poor that formed the bulk of skirmishers in antiquity.

About the only "Skirmish" cavalry that was used in large numbers were horse archers. These were either nomadic peoples (as such most of the army was cavalry) or elite units.

Can you please advise what nation used cavalry skirmishers without having a cavalry-centric army?

[Zombulian]

Odd... modern infantry (at least since cartriage using rifles) is adapted from previous skirmishers (jager units). In fact, most skirmishers in history were foot troops since the expense of being cavalry normally precluded the poor that formed the bulk of skirmishers in antiquity.

About the only "Skirmish" cavalry that was used in large numbers were horse archers. These were either nomadic peoples (as such most of the army was cavalry) or elite units.

Can you please advise what nation used cavalry skirmishers without having a cavalry-centric army?

Yeah I knew "almost exclusively" would get picked out, mostly because it's wrong. But I was too lazy to change it. It doesn't change the fact that moreover not all skirmishers were cavalry, but most cavalry were skirmishers. Riding through enemies in waves, doing as much damage as possible before running off again for the next attack.

[Vaz]

Thats... not what a skirmisher means. Skirmishers a flexible fast moving 'light infantry', often used as a mobile screen to prevent other similar troops from outmaneuvering more cumbersome regiments. In regards to examples, Napoleonic Dragoons were initially a mounted infantryman, but soon adapted to British skirmish tactics (which involved the use of rifled weapons and outranged french muskets) and used their mountsnto ride down the slower reloading rifles.

[flamewolf393]

The single best weapon for any precision damage build. Costs a feat for exotic weapon proficiency, but more than worth it.

Crescent knife from dragon #275
Cost: 20gp, Damage: 1d3, Critical: x2, Weight: 1lb, Type: Slashing.

This weapon, which resembles a crescent-shaped blade affixed to a crossbar handle, allows its wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack is resolved separately.


This weapon doubles your number of attacks with no penalty. And as we all know, more attacks per round is god for precision damage. Stack it with two weapon fighting, and (once you can afford the +3 weapons) speed weapon.

[VoxRationis]

How does that make sense? There's a clear precedent for weapons with more than one damage-dealing part being double-weapons, using the two-weapon rules.

[pyrese]

How does that make sense? There's a clear precedent for weapons with more than one damage-dealing part being double-weapons, using the two-weapon rules.

It's a case of specific overrides general. The blades are not damage: 1d3/1d3. They are damage: 1d3, with a special text.

[VoxRationis]

No, I understand that whoever wrote it did so intentionally; I'm just taken aback at the divergence from the normal way to handle these things and why they did that.

[Vaz]

Welcomr to Dragon magazine.

[Vedhin]

Ge an Explosive melee weapon (+2 enchantment, Complete Warrior). Buy Boots of Sidestepping (3000gp, Dungeonscape). Take a 5ft sep, full attack, using the boots to dodge the explosions. Your 2nd attack on will have skirmish. Your Evasion should handle the remaining explosions. Even if you do get a natural 1, 2d4 isn't that much damage.

Plus, you look really awesome.

[Curmudgeon]

The single best weapon for any precision damage build. Costs a feat for exotic weapon proficiency, but more than worth it.

Crescent knife from dragon #275
That's a 3.0 weapon (and early 3.0 at that). Your DM may decide to makes some minor adjustments before it can be used in a 3.5 game, or exclude it altogether.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Thats... not what a skirmisher means. Skirmishers a flexible fast moving 'light infantry', often used as a mobile screen to prevent other similar troops from outmaneuvering more cumbersome regiments. In regards to examples, Napoleonic Dragoons were initially a mounted infantryman, but soon adapted to British skirmish tactics (which involved the use of rifled weapons and outranged french muskets) and used their mountsnto ride down the slower reloading rifles.

Ranged light infantry were skirmishing units.

Cavalry Archers were ALSO skirmishing units. It's just that western (ie, European) armies didn't utilize those units so much, many other cultures did. Not just nomadic steppes people like the Huns, Mongols, Parthians, etc.... (which is already a pretty good amount of civilizations that you should be less dismissive). The Japanese used horse archers extensively, that's the origin of the Samurai (one of the most historically iconic "melee infantry" units); they started off as cav archers. With a special long bow w/ the release point for arrows only 1/3 the way up the bow instead of 1/2 specifically to enable shooting for horseback.

"Skirmisher" isn't just one specific type of unit. Except to WotC and you, apparently.

[Vaz]

Big response planned. Can't be bothered to argue with you, other than to recommend you read what was put earlier. Oh, and actually read what you're quoting. Because you know, I said exactly what you said - using French Dragoons as the example. Nominally, Mounted Infantry (you do understand the difference between the two?), but by the end of their use, almost exclusively "cavalryman".

Your condescension is not particularly welcome, nor is it justified.