View Full Version : Project Crossroads II: I'm on a Mammoth.
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:46 PM
1: Introduction
2: System Changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391607&viewfull=1#post17391607)
3: Player Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391616&viewfull=1#post17391616)
4: Bestiary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391623&viewfull=1#post17391623)
5: The Cahokian League (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391626&viewfull=1#post17391626)
6: Tuniitaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391631&viewfull=1#post17391631)
7: Aztatlan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391638&viewfull=1#post17391638)
8: Columbia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391643&viewfull=1#post17391643)
9: Fúsāng (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391653&viewfull=1#post17391653)
10: The Spirit World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391660&viewfull=1#post17391660)
11: Beyond the New World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391666&viewfull=1#post17391666)
12: Canon Details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391669&viewfull=1#post17391669)
Crossroads: The New World
http://franceshunter.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/landc_nwindians_russell.jpg
I had gained the summit of a commanding ridge, and, looking round with astonishing delight, beheld the ample plains, the beauteous tracts below.
~Daniel Boone, The ADVENTURES of Col. DANIEL BOON; containing a NARRATIVE of the WARS of Kentucke (http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=etas)
If you're just joining in, come check out our new Wiki (http://crossroads-tnw.wikia.com/wiki/Crossroads:_The_New_World_Wikia)!
And if you like what you see, you can like us on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/CrossroadsTheNewWorld) and follow us on Tumblr (http://crossroadsthenewworld.tumblr.com/) and Google+ (https://plus.google.com/104825233098522211747/posts)!
Are you a homebrewer? Would you like to see your creations and your name in a real, published book?
Then check out our Call to Brew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328094) thread!
Crossroads: The New World is a Pathfinder campaign setting, depicting a world very much like our own, where history has taken a turn from what we know and continued down a very different course. We pick up the thread of history in 1750 A.D. Ask yourself...
What would history have looked like if magic had existed, where spellcasters were as common as doctors?
What would have happened if China had already been colonizing the west coast when Columbus first made landfall on the east?
What would it be like if the Tuniit giants of Inuit myth had been real, and had absorbed the newly arrived Inuit, rather than being chased off? What if they did the same with the Vinland colonies?
How would the balance of power in the New World been different if the Mississippi merchant-city of Cahokia had thrived all the way into the 1700s?
What might have been if Hernán Cortés' illegal and unauthorized expedition in the land of the Mexica had ended in his death? What if the Aztec empire had never fallen to invasion, and instead grown larger and more powerful with the aid of newly-acquired firearm technology?
Imagine a world where European wizards pit their magic against Aztec bloodcasters, where Chinese martial artists square off against Vinlandr berserkers, where native musketeers stand against rampaging monsters. Imagine a world which is at once intimately familiar and shocking in its strangeness.
Imagine a world you may have known your entire life, yet never truly appreciated how wonderful, how strange, and how exciting it truly is.
Imagine… a New World.
-------------
The year is 1750, and the continent we know as North America is roughly divided into five major empires, each trying to lay claim to the entire continent and all its bounty.
On the eastern coast, Europeans are steadily expanding their colonies in the continent they call Columbia, each major power trying to edge the others out of what they see as their new land to conquer. European cultures and Native ones collide, creating unique and novel philosophies, technologies, and mystical techniques.
In the center, between the Green Mountains and the Heaven-Touching Mountains, lies the great plains and the mighty Mississippi. On the river one can find Cahokia, the jewel of the continent, a thriving metropolis of trade and travel, where goods can be found from all five empires and even the lands beyond. The city commands the loyalty of dozens of tribes and groups through the middle of the continent, and subtly controls them to keep the borders strong against foreign expansion; collectively, Cahokia and its client-tribes are known as the Cahokian League.
In the south, Aztatlan, the Aztec Empire, has expanded greatly over the past few hundred years, now controlling the vast majority of the sweltering jungles south of the Rio Grande. Despite intense internal strife in the wake of the European invasion attempt, the triple alliance has emerged stronger than ever, with the help of firearms and cannons, crafted with techniques extracted from the defeated Spaniards.
In the north, the frozen lands are ruled by a confederacy of many cultures, united by intermarriage and treaties around the Tuniit, men with the blood of giants in their veins, a confederacy known as Tuniitaq. The arctic peoples dwell in a harsh, unforgiving land, one of extreme weather and stunning natural beauty. But as the populations grow, they begin to require more and more land to support their burgeoning population, and so they slowly expand southward, to warmer and more productive climes.
On the west coast, from the great rainforests of the north and all the way south to the fringes of Aztatlan, the coastline is occupied by the nation of Fúsāng, the new realm of Ming dynasty, who fled their homeland as the Qing took over and slew their opposition. Jade Harbor is the seat of Fúsāng's power, situated in the welcoming embrace of what would be know and Vancouver Bay in our world.
-----
There a few specific points of divergence that make this setting what it is, and all of these differences can be traced back to one or more of these points.
The first and most deeply-ingrained point of separation is the existence of magic in this world. Magic has always been present, and has been used by humans since prehistory. It is as much a part of the world as gravity or salt. Magic is found everywhere, though it’s stronger in some places and weaker in others. Spellcasters are relatively commonplace in the world, appearing about as frequently as doctors or priests. Chances are good that an average commoner would see one or two every few years, and many larger communities would have regular access to one or two.
Chronologically, the first change regards Cahokia (”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia”). In our timeline, the city was the largest population center on the continent until 1800, and boasted trade routes which connected it to much of the continent, even before the introduction of the horse. The city fell apart in the 1200s thanks to drought and deforestation, which eventually led to catastrophic floods and famine. In this timeline, however, druidic magic and spiritual intervention led to a continued rise in power, a rapid regrowth of the forests, and ever-increasing crop yields, allowing the city to thrive, even to the modern day. Over time they formed trade agreements with various tribes of the plains and the southeast, giving them a measure of control and access to trade even in distant lands. Now, it’s a multicultural hub, trading horses from Europeans for Chinese jade, and disseminating the secrets of gunpowder and muskets to their client tribes.
In the north, the Dorset Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorset_culture) were a group of paleo-Eskimo people who inhabited the shorelines of eastern Canada and Greenland. In our world, they fell into decline around 1000 CE, and were completely gone by 1500 CE, destroyed first by the changing climate of the time, then completely displaced by the Inuit somewhere around 1200-1250 CE. In the end, they were only remembered in Inuit myth as the Tuniit a race of, large, strong-bodied men who were easily scared away. In the crossroads setting, most of the Tuniit truly were giants, and when the Thule first contacted the Tuniit, instead of being chased away or slain, they made peaceful contact. They traded their tools for the Inuit tools, welcomed them into their communities, and many of their number intermarried. Now the resultant Tuniit had the technology to expand their territory inland, to provide food for themselves away from the oceans. Over many hundreds of years, they steadily grew in numbers and began to spread across the land, making new allies and offering trade and marriages to seal their friendships. Now they control almost all of what we know as Canada through a loose, informal confederacy of native groups known as Tuniitaq.
The Chinese explorer Zheng He (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He) was, in our time, a great explorer who traveled widely through the pacific, south pacific, and the Indian Ocean, charting and contacting a great many new civilizations for the Ming emperor. Some believe he may have even landed in North America, though the truth of these statements is questionable. Eventually, the Ming cut off all major seagoing travel, to focus their resources inward. In our world, the explorer does make make landfall on the new world, and he comes back with tales of a land bursting with life, resources, furs, and primitive natives. In the first few years, the new world is a curiosity, a few adventurous travelers and colonists heading over, some logging the massive rainforests, other trapping furs, some setting up farms for Chinese traditional crops and exotic new world foods to ship back. When the Qing takeover the mainland of China, there is but one place left for loyalists to escape the executioner’s axe. Refugees flock to the new world, including the infant daughter of the emperor, the first empress of Fusang, and the last blood relative of the Ming. After a bit of conflict with the local Sasquatch populations, they eventually settled in as rulers of the vast coast.
The Triple Alliance, or, as they are inaccurately known, the Aztec Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_Empire), was a powerful civilization with great military might at the time of contact with Europeans. Hernán Cortés and a small contingent of Spanish soldiers ignored orders to return to Spain and made a move to conquer the Aztecs for their material wealth, with the help of a enormous force of rebellious groups, dissatisfied with the control of the Triple Alliance. In our world, Cortez and his force attacked Tenochtitlan, killed hundreds, took control of the palace, and puppeteered the king. In our timeline, the initial contact went much the same, until one pivotal point. Fleeing the city as a result of an uprising, Cortez was captured and held captive, waiting to be sacrificed. In our world, one of his lieutenants rescued him, giving his life in the process. In the world of crossroads, the lieutenant died before saving Cortez, and the leaderless force of Spaniards and natives was trapped, slaughtered, and the remainder captured and brought to the city for sacrifice. Some Spaniards were spared (temporarily) in exchange for their knowledge of metalworking, gunpowder, firearms, and cannons. Armed with this new knowledge, the Triple Alliance launched a bloody, expensive war of extermination against the Spaniards who remained on Mexico’s shoreline. There was a brief period of civil war, a great deal of combat, and eventually the Empire of Aztatlan was formed in earnest.
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:47 PM
1: Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17391600&viewfull=1#post17391600)
2: System Changes
3: Player Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391616&viewfull=1#post17391616)
4: Bestiary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391623&viewfull=1#post17391623)
5: The Cahokian League (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391626&viewfull=1#post17391626)
6: Tuniitaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391631&viewfull=1#post17391631)
7: Aztatlan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391638&viewfull=1#post17391638)
8: Columbia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391643&viewfull=1#post17391643)
9: Fusang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391653&viewfull=1#post17391653)
10: The Spirit World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391660&viewfull=1#post17391660)
11: Beyond the New World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391666&viewfull=1#post17391666)
12: Canon Details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391669&viewfull=1#post17391669)
System Changes
The world of Crossroads is very different from the pseudo-medieval fantasy world of the normal Pathfinder setting. New technology, different approaches to magic, and different rules of engagement require a few unusual or completely new rules to make the world feel right for the time period and the overall feel of the setting.
Culture Subsystem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?297634-New-Advantage-Culture-%28a-method-for-representing-cultures-in-Human-focused-settings)
As the vast majority of people in the crossroads world are humans, the culture system is a mechanical way to indicate the kind of upbringing your character experienced, the kind of skills they would learn through their childhood, the languages they would speak, and often, their genetic heritage. Some cultures have special options available to them, which is indicated by a [culture] tag on the material with the name of the culture(s) that can use it.
Disclaimer: No system can possibly represent the entire depth and complexity of a single human society, let alone a whole continent of them. The Culture Subsystem is meant to represent commonalities, not universal abilities which every member of a culture possesses or has access to. If you feel that the Background Feats or Skills we selected don’t accurately represent a given culture, then please feel free to alter or disregard them entirely.
Language Subsystem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?297629-New-Skill-System-Language-Proficiency&p=15810202#post15810202)
Learning a new language, particularly a very foreign one, is a significant hurdle in the real world, and the language subsystem expresses that, adding a range of different proficiency levels for speaking and understanding languages. There are hundreds of languages in the new world, and likely thousands of dialects. Being able to make yourself understood can be extremely important when traveling far and wide.
Literacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?298284-Reading-Rainbow-Feats-for-Crossroads-Setting&p=15837669#post15837669)
The knowledge of reading and writing requires extensive training and practice to master, and so it is usually limited to the wealthy elite. But the potential rewards are great: literacy is a rare and powerful ability which allows one to communicate across large tracts of time and space, or even with people in completely different places at the same time.
Literacy - the ability to read and write the languages a character speaks - is represented by one or more of a series of feats, many of which are specific to certain cultures, or groups of cultures.
Unlike traditional D&D, literacy is NOT a prerequisite for taking levels in spellcasting classes; if a character comes from a non-literate background, they can still scribe spells and write “spellbooks” via non-linguistic methods, such as casting and rearranging glyph-stones, cutting notches in reeds or sticks, tying and retying knots in dreamcatchers, weaving or braiding textiles, creating ritual sand-paintings, rearranging the contents of a medicine-bag/bundle, etc.
Value Points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351237-Value-Points-Crossroads)
In the world of crossroads, there is no universal currency like gold coins or paper notes. Wealth is instead measured in value points, or VP, one VP being approximately equal to 1 GP in a standard pathfinder setting. Value points are an abstract notion, not a physical currency, which measure how much value your items hold. Every item is worth a quantity of VP, and items can be traded for other items of lesser or equal value. Value fluctuates, however, and some places will trade certain items for less or more, and some might not even accept certain kinds of items. you can also attempt to present your items as worth more than they are, as detailed in the post.
Gear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351238-Character-Points-Crossroads-Gear-Reduction-System)
In the world of crossroads, magic items, weapons, and armor are very valuable and significantly more uncommon than in a traditional Pathfinder world. Much of the ‘required’ bonuses that most characters must have to function properly in combat, such deflection bonuses, are instead replaced with itemless bonuses. The itemless system is intended to replace approximately two thirds of a character’s wealth gained in treasure.
Alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351236-Subjective-Alignment-Crossroads)
Alignment has always been a challenging topic. The traditional two-axis alignment grid is still in place in the crossroads setting, but it’s not quite as straightforward here. almost every culture in this time frame has practices that the modern world would consider ‘evil’, and all of them believe they’re inherently good. Actions that are good to one person may be neutral, or even evil, in the eyes of another. As such, a character’s functional alignment depends on the point of view, both of themselves, and of others viewing them.
Hero Points (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/hero-points)
While using Hero Points are not strictly required for use of the crossroads setting, it is generally advised, as we feel it allows players to take a slightly more active role in their own fate, in a world where the difference between hero and failure can often come down to just one lucky moment. Also, the use of hero points encourages players to become more familiar with the setting to come up with their characters and play them appropriately.
Characters can gain hero points (at the DM’s discretion) by obeying the taboos of their culture, even when doing so would be generally detrimental to their progress.
Native characters can also use hero points to implore the help of the spirits in a time of need, and can add Call Spirits to the list of possible uses for hero points.
Call Spirits By spending one hero point as a standard action, the character can plead for a specific thing that is beyond their ability from the spirits, such as, ‘slay that man’, or ‘clear my path’. The spirits can respond with a single spell effect aimed at accomplishing the stated goal. The exact spell, and how it affects the goal, is up to the DM, but it cannot have a spell level higher than ½ the character’s level.
Death
In the crossroads setting, death and revival follows slightly different rules. When a living creature dies, its soul leaves the body and moves to the spirit world, which is described in detail below. While on the spirit world, the soul can choose to pass to the Beyond, a mysterious afterlife that no soul returns from, at any time. The soul can remain on the spirit world for a number of days equal to its hit dice, during which time it can be returned to the body. When this time limit runs out, it must make a will save (DC 20) or pass on immediately. If the soul remains on the spirit world after the time period, it becomes a permanent resident, and can no longer be revived. To be revived, a creature’s body must be recovered or recreated, then healed of all hit point damage and all ability damage: only then can the soul be called back to the body and returned to life. Some higher-level spells allow the entire process to be completed as a single action.
Flight
In the crossroads setting, there is no player-available flight, due to the obvious, immediate, and completely unpredictable changes that flight would make in areas of battle, travel, exploration, and dozens of other areas. There are no spells that grant flight on any spell lists in the crossroads world. There are animals and monsters that can fly and some may even be able to carry a human’s weight, but they are universally unsuitable for training or domestication, being either too unintelligent to follow commands, impossible to restrain or contain, or simply too aggressive and dangerous to work with.
Magic
Magic in the crossroads setting is significantly different than the magic of other worlds. For the most part, it works the same, but many spells are different, absent, or interact differently with the world. A full version of the modified spell lists will be described in the Player Options post, but there are a few overarching changes that those who use the system should be aware of.
Teleportation
The usual spells that allow characters to teleport instantly from one location to another one some extreme distance away do not exist in the crossroads setting, as they would dramatically alter a wide variety of areas. Instead, there are spots called ‘Links’, temporary places that can be opened by spellcasters to allow them (and relatively small numbers of travelers) to move through them to a set end-point. Links are one-way only, they only appear for relatively short periods of time, and they can sometimes drop you somewhere unexpected. Links are organized into networks known as ‘spirals’, which occupy distinct geographical areas, graphed around the central ‘nexus’ link by how easy they are to open, how frequently they appear, and how common they are. There’s only one nexus link in each spiral, which is the easiest to use and the most frequently activating, whereas there are a handful of ‘first ring’ links, which are slightly harder to use and slightly less often active. Links become more common, more difficult to use, and more infrequently active as the link’s ring number increases, until only the most powerful spellcasters can make use of 5th-ring links. Typically links open to some other point in the same spiral, though as the ring number increases, they are more likely to take you somewhere else.
Communication
Almost all long-distance instant communication spells have been removed, and there are no longer spells that allow you to freely communicate regardless of language barriers. Long-distance communication has a variety of implications on the world as a whole, allowing for news to travel instantly, commanders to change orders on the fly, and makes it impossible to intercept many of the most important messages. As such, they have too much potential to drastically alter the course of history, and have been removed. There are some spells that allow you to speak new languages for a certain period of time, or to communicate directly with another person without needing to speak, but being able to totally ignore language barriers makes first-contact situations much too easy
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:48 PM
1: Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17391600&viewfull=1#post17391600)
2: System Changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391607&viewfull=1#post17391607)
3: Player Options
4: Bestiary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391623&viewfull=1#post17391623)
5: The Cahokian League (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391626&viewfull=1#post17391626)
6: Tuniitaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391631&viewfull=1#post17391631)
7: Aztatlan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391638&viewfull=1#post17391638)
8: Columbia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391643&viewfull=1#post17391643)
9: Fusang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391653&viewfull=1#post17391653)
10: The Spirit World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391660&viewfull=1#post17391660)
11: Beyond the New World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391666&viewfull=1#post17391666)
12: Canon Details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391669&viewfull=1#post17391669)
Player Options
Cultures
Name
Background Skills
Background Feats
Native Language
Bonus Languages
Taboos
European (British)
Appraise, Disable Device, Knowledge (Engineering), Linguistics, Profession (Sailor), Spellcraft
Acadamae Graduate, Rapid Reload, Sword And Pistol
English
Dutch, French, Spanish
Eating insects; Indecent exposure*
European (Continental)
Appraise, Handle Animal, Knowledge (Religion), Disable Device, Perform
Academae Graduate, Caustic Slur, Dilettante, Duelist, Sword And Pistol, Taunt, Horse Master, Witty Feint
Spanish or Français or Nederlands
Cree, English, Inuktitut, Norsq, French, Maya, Mixtec,Pueblo, Spanish
Making light of the Church; Eating insects; Indecent exposure*
European (Frontier)
Handle Animal, Knowledge (Nature), Ride, Survival, Swim
any Native
Han (Mainland)
Acrobatics, Craft, Heal, Knowledge (History), Disable Device
Expert Haggler,
Mandarin
Cantonese, Chinook Jargon
Han (Frontier)
Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Nature), Survival, Swim
Corsair, Crossbow Mastery, Dazzling Display, Expert Haggler, Gunsmithing, Jumper, Landing Roll, Martial Mastery, Rapid Reload, Spear Dancer, Storm-Lashed, Sure Footed
Mandarin
Chinook Jargon, Salish, Haida, Quillayute
Disobeying the Confucian edicts of respect for elders and social superiors?
Native (Arctic)
Knowledge (Nature), Spellcraft, Survival, Swim
Big Game Hunter, Endurance, Ironguts, Rugged Northerner, Runereader, Self-Sufficient, Toughness, Trapper’s Setup
Adlet, Cree, Inuktitut, Norsq
Native (Cahokian)
Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Linguistics, Sense Motive, Spellcraft
Babble-Peddler, Cosmopolitan, Crossbow Mastery, Discerning Eye, Drive A Hard Bargain, Natural Charmer, Savvy Customer, Master of the Ledger
Cahokian (Tradespeak)
Algonquin, Apache, Choktaw, Comanche, Kiowa, Pawnee, Pueblo, Lakota
Engaging in obviously unprofitable ventures.
Native (California)
Handle Animal, Knowledge (Nature), Profession (Farmer), Spellcraft, Swim
Native (Caribbean)
Knowledge (Nature), Spellcraft, Swim
Native (Great Basin)
Knowledge (Nature), Spellcraft, Survival
Desert Dweller, Endurance, Knowledge (Nature), Toughness
Native (Great Plains)
Handle Animal, Knowledge (Nature), Ride, Survival, Spellcraft, Swim
Big Game Hunter, Focused Shot, Horse Master, Indomitable Mount, Massed Charge, Mounted Onslaught, Mounted Archery, Saddle Shrieker
Cahokian (Tradespeak)
Native (Mammutcha) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?330504-Mammoth-brothers-Culture-Crossroads)
Handle Animal, Knowledge (Nature), Ride
Big Game Hunter, Indomitable Mount, Mounted Onslaught, Mounted Archery
Inuktitut, Mammutchadinne
Eating mammut-flesh
Native (Maya)
Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Stealth, Survival
Calmecac Education,
any Mayan
any other Mayan, Español, Nahuatl
Abusing a captive;
Native (Mesoamerica)
Knowledge (Nature), Survival, Stealth, Swim
any Mayan, Nahuatl, Spanish
Native (Mexica)
Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Nobility), Profession (Farmer), Stealth, Spellcraft
Bloodletting, Calmecac Education, Desert Dweller, Eagle Eyes, Jaguar Pounce, Rapid Grappler?
Nahuatl
Español, any Mayan, Mixtec, Pueblo, Tarascan
Abusing a captive; Being drunk in public; Cutting down a living tree; Eating food that has been eaten from by a mouse; Stealing
Native (Northeast)
Climb, Diplomacy, Heal?, Knowledge (Nature), Stealth, Survival, Swim
Crossbow Mastery,
Native (Northwest Coast)
Climb, Craft, Handle Canoe, Knowledge (Nature), Survival, Swim
Corsair, Galley Slave
Native (Plateau)
Knowledge (Nature), Spellcraft
Native (Southeast)
Climb, Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Religion), Spellcraft, Swim
Crossbow Mastery,
Native (Southwest)
Craft, Climb, Handle Animal, Knowledge (Nature), Ride, Survival
Crossbow Mastery, Desert Dweller,
Native (Subarctic)
Craft, Handle Canoe, Knowledge (Nature), Survival, Stealth, Swim
Endurance, Rugged Northerner, Self-Sufficient, Toughness, Trapper’s Setup
Native (Vinlandr) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?366194-Vinlandr-Inuit-Viking-Fusion-Culture-Crossroads)
Knowledge (Nature), Profession (Fisher, Hunter, Sailor, Hosekeeper), Survival (Cold, Forest, Water), Swim
Canoe Mastery, Rugged Northerner,
Norsq
Tuniit, Inuktitut, Cree, Adlet
Fighting dishonorably
Slave
Craft, Handle Animal, Profession (any), Sense Motive
Careful Speaker, Endurance, Secret Signs, Toughness
(as master)
(as master)
Races
Name
Description
Base Races
Touched (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?376157-Touched-Human-ANYTHING-Race-Crossroads)
Humans that have just a touch of something inhuman in them, be it spirit or monster.
Taqriaqsuit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?269711-Taqriaqsuit-PF-Race-Shadow-Folk-Vespuccia)
Shadow-people, native to the Spirit World, who naturally straddle the barrier between the planes.
Advanced Races
Giantkin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?354945-Giantkin-Varied-Half-Giants-Crossroads)
Enormous humanoids, men with the blood of giants in their veins.
Húli Jīng (狐狸精) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325627-Huli-Jing-Fox-Illusionists-Race-Crossroads)
A race of fox like spirits with great powers of illusion.
Inunnguaq
Constructs of stone, cobbled into the shape of a human and brought to life with complex rune-magic.
Little Folk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348181-Little-Folk-Crossroads-Tiny-Fey-Race)
A race of tiny fey that have lived hidden in the wilds across the world.
Sasquatch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385049)
Large, strong, and hairy human-like apes that live in small groups all across the world.
Monstrous Races
Mo-Swe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365827-Mo-Swe-quadrupedal-moose-folk-with-a-natural-Rage-ability-PF-race)
Tauric moose-folk with a natural rage
Coatl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373316-Coatl-Playable-Feathered-Snake-Dragons-w-ghost-powers!-Crossroads)
Feathered dragon-serpents of aztatlan with a deep connection to the spirits of the dead.
Classes:
Name
Status
Description
Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423213)
WIP
A strength-focused melee class that applies strength to both combat and utility.
Chosen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392213-Chosen-Divine-warlock-ish-base-class-Crossroads-WIP)
WIP
A spontaneous divine spellcaster, granted power and charged with a mission by a powerful spirit.
Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351446-Hunter-Base-Class-Crossroads)
Done
A highly mobile, nature-oriented class. Uses a variety of tactics in combat for ranged and melee combat.
Martial Artist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?322380-Martial-Artist-Base-Class-Crossroads)
WIP
A master of the body, a melee combatant with a focus on unarmed fighting and mobility. Uses a variety of styles.
Medicine Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?270816-Medicine-Man-wip-Vespuccia-PF)
WIP
A non-spell using caster with a variety of rituals and dances.
Priest
Concept
An unarmored divine caster who gains special traits based on the dogma they follow.
Runecaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351056-Runecaster-Crossroads-Rough-Draft)
WIP
A spellcaster that uses spell-like glyphs to create a very wide variety of effects.
Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?270491-Warlock-Tweaked-Vespuccia)
Done
An untrained arcane spellcaster, uses very simple arcane magic.
Note: These classes are the ones considered to be suitable to fit into the setting.
Name
Description
Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard)
A musician and dabbler, who uses song to inspire allies.
Druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid)
A nature-oriented spellcaster with an animal companion with the power to change into animals.
Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger)
A gunman, a master of firearms, the most common type of soldier.
Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue)
A stealthy thief and assassin.
Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner)
An arcane spellcaster with a summoned companion.
Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch)
An arcane spellcaster with a number of special hexes
Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard)
The classical arcane spellcaster, a student of tomes and spellbooks.
Prestige Classes
Name
Status
Description
Blood Priest
Concept
A divine caster that can empower or modify their spells using sacrificed blood or lives.
Coureur Des Bois
Concept
A traveling hunter and explorer, perfectly at home in the wilds of the New World
False Face Healer
Concept
A native healer, part of a great organization of healers that kept the plagues from destroying the natives.
Nameless
Concept
Agents of Her Radiant Majesty who metaphorically die as they enter the service, becoming nameless agents with no fear of death.
Scarred Monk
Concept
Arcane spellcasters under the control of the Church, named as they are for the hideous scars left by their self-flagellation.
Skinwalker
Rough Draft
A native warrior with the power to don an animal's hide and take on aspects of the animal while wearing it.
NameDescription
Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-trickster)
Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/assassin)
Chevalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/chevalier)
Dark Delver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/pathfinder-delver)
Divine Assessor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/divine-assessor)
Deep Sea Pirate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/inner-sea-pirate)
Duelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/duelist)
Low Templar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/low-templar)
Mammoth Rider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/mammoth-rider)
Master Spy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/master-spy)
Pathfinder Chronicler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/pathfinder-chronicler)
Skills
Swim (Str; untrained) - New use, Canoeing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364899-Canoeing-New-use-of-Swim-Crossroads), allows a character to maneuver personal watercraft over rivers, lakes, and oceans.
Heal (Wis; trained only) - A successful Heal check is necessary to diagnose any disease or condition before it can be healed or cured. Ranks in heal can also modify how effective a spellcaster's healing spells are.
Linguistics (Int; trained only) - the number of ranks invested in this skill determine the number of languages a character knows, and the ease with which he speaks them (see the Language Proficiency System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?297629-New-Skill-System-Language-Proficiency&p=15810202) for details).
Feats
[table="class: grid head"]
Name
Description
Prerequisites
Born of Two Peoples (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?297642-New-Feat-Born-of-Two-Peoples-General&p=15810735#post15810735)
A character with this feat has two cultures, and with a bit effort, can pass as either one as the situation demands.
First level only; see text
Drive a Hard Bargain
When making a Bluff check to haggle, the character may roll twice and take the better result.
Bluff 5 ranks
Gift for Tongues
Each skill point invested in Linguistics grants twice the usual amount of fluency (+2 instead of +1).
First level only
Literacy feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17439413&postcount=9)
You can read and write, and gain other bonuses based on the manner of your education.
see text for details
Polyglot
The character speaks 3 additional languages, beginning at the "intermediate" level.
First level only
Savvy Customer
When making a Sense Motive check to haggle, the character may roll twice and take the better result.
Sense Motive 5 ranks
Equipment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315613-Equipment-for-the-New-World-Crossroads-Pathfinder)
Spells
Native Spell List
European Spell List
Asian Spell List
Research and Inspirational Materials (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14976184&postcount=569)
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:49 PM
1: Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17391600&viewfull=1#post17391600)
2: System Changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391607&viewfull=1#post17391607)
3: Player Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391616&viewfull=1#post17391616)
4: Bestiary
5: The Cahokian League (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391626&viewfull=1#post17391626)
6: Tuniitaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391631&viewfull=1#post17391631)
7: Aztatlan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391638&viewfull=1#post17391638)
8: Columbia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391643&viewfull=1#post17391643)
9: Fusang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391653&viewfull=1#post17391653)
10: The Spirit World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391660&viewfull=1#post17391660)
11: Beyond the New World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391666&viewfull=1#post17391666)
12: Canon Details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391669&viewfull=1#post17391669)
Bestiary
Animals of the Americas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?295763-Animals-of-the-Americas-A-Library-of-Uncommon-Creatures)
Classic Monsters (Under Construction)
These are monsters from pathfinder that are considered suitable to be used in this setting, with a brief explanation of what needs to change to make them suitable.
Columbia (incl. Nouvelle France, New Britain, and Nueva España)
Assassin Bug, Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/assassin-bug-giant)-
Atomie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/atomie)-
Basilisk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/basilisk)-
Bogeyman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/bogeyman)-
Chickcharney (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/chickcharney)-
Cooshee (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/cooshee-TOHC) (Cu Sidhe)-
Erlking (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/erlking) (Erlkönig)-
Gargoyle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/gargoyle)-
Giant Flytrap (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/plants/flytrap-giant)-
Golem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-clay)-
Hell Hound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/hell-hound)-
Homunculus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/homunculus)-
Kelpie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/kelpie)-
Korred (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/korred)-
Mandragora (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/plants/mandragora) (Mandrake)-
Mothman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/mothman)-
Nightmare (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/nightmare)-
Nuckalavee (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/nuckalavee-TOHC)-
Nymph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/nymph)-
Pukwudgie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/pukwudgie)-
Rat King (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/rat-king)-
Redcap (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/redcap)-
Sargassum Fiend (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/plants/sargassum-fiend)-
Scarecrow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/scarecrow)-
Sea Serpent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/sea-serpent)-
Selkie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/selkie)-
Ship in a Bottle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/ship-in-a-bottle)-
Sinspawn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/sinspawn-hub)-
Soucouyant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/soucouyant)-
Soulbound Doll (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/soulbound-doll) (Voodoo Doll)-
Spriggan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/spriggan)-
Sprite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/sprite)-
Unicorn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/unicorn)-
Vampire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/vampire)-
Will-o'-Wisp (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/will-o--wisp)-
Tuniitaq, Vinland, & Novorassi
Adlet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/adlet)-
Baba Yaga (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/sowhereaminow-s-lab/baba-yaga)-
Baykok (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/baykok)-
Dragonship (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/dragonship-tohc)-
Frostfallen Mammoth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/frostfallen-mammoth)-
Ijiraq (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/ijiraq)-
Selkie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/selkie)-
Sleipnir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/sleipnir)-
Tupilaq (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/tupilaq)-
Valkyrie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/valkyrie)-
Aztatlan & Mayalatolli
Ahuizotl (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/ahuizotl)-
Ant Swarm, Army (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/ant/army-ant-swarm)-
Assassin Bug (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/assassin-bug-giant)-
Larabay (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/larabay)-
Redcap (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/redcap) (invasive species)-
Xtabay (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/plants/xtabay)-
Cahokian League & Iroquois Confederacy
Ant Swarm, Army (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/ant/army-ant-swarm)-
Assassin Bug, Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/assassin-bug-giant)-
Baykok (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/baykok)-
Dragonfly, Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/dragonfly-giant)-
Hodag (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/hodag)-
Waterstrider, Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/water-strider-giant)-
Waterstrider Swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/water-strider-swarm)-
Waterstrider, Nymph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/water-strider-nymph)-
Fúsāng
Assassin Bug, Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/assassin-bug-giant)-
Clam, Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/clam-giant)-
Dragon Turtle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-turtle)-
Jade Colossus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/colossus-jade)-
Taotieh (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/taotieh)-
Terra-cotta Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/terra-cotta-soldier/terra-cotta-archer)-
Terra-cotta Horseman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/terra-cotta-soldier/terra-cotta-horseman)-
Terra-cotta Soldier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/terra-cotta-soldier)-
Hisatsinom (Anasazi)
Assassin Bug, Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/assassin-bug-giant)-
Dragonfly, Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/dragonfly-giant)-
Scorpion, Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/scorpion/scorpion-giant)-
Velvet Ant Swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/swarm-velvet-ant-tohc)-
South Vespuccia
Ant Swarm, Army (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/ant/army-ant-swarm)-
Assassin Bug, Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/assassin-bug-giant)-
Botfly, Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/botfly-giant)-
Botfly Swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/botfly-swarm)-
Chonchon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/chon-chon)-
Chonchon Swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/chon-chon-swarm)-
Universal (i.e., found in many regions, or native to the Spirit World)
Beheaded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/beheaded/severed-head)-
Centipede (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/centipede) (various species)-
Devilfish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/devilfish)-
Eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/eidolon-unfettered)-
Ghost (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/ghost)-
Ghost (template) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/ghost)-
Giant (various types) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants)-
Jellyfish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/jellyfish)-
Lycanthrope (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope)-
Mosquito Swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/mosquito-swarm)-
Mosquito Swarm, Bloodhaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/mosquito-swarm/mosquito-swarm-bloodhaze)-
Tick Swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/tick-swarm)-
Wasp Swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/bees-and-wasps/wasp/wasp-swarm)-
All new monsters are created by playgrounders, through the Call to Brew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328094-Call-to-Brew!-Crossroads) thread!
Finished New Monsters
Native
Acheri (CR 3) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16892242&postcount=31)- A spectral child, the remnants of a child who died of a disease, who seeks to spread their illness.
Agloolik (CR 5) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16998207&postcount=107)- A tall, furry water monster, who protects seals and seal cubs, and will help respectful hunters catch food.
Akhlut (CR 4) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?288362-Akhlut-Monster-Crossroads)- An enormous amphibious beast, part Orca and part Wolf, which hunts with advanced tactics.
Alebrijes (CR +1) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17035317&postcount=113)- Chaotic animal-like creatures from the spirit world, with glaringly bright and contrasting colors.
A-Mi-Kuk (CR 7) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17043243&postcount=123)- A huge, slimy-skinned monster, with four arms ending in human hands. The beast lives in the ocean, but it can burrow to inland lakes and walk on land.
Auvvik (CR 1/2) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17085249&postcount=144)- An enormous caterpillar that feeds on blood to grow. Actually very friendly, and can make a good pet.
Az-I-Wu-Gum-Ki-Mukh-'Ti (CR 4) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17041615&postcount=119)- A giant, black, scale-covered creature, with canine front legs and a smashing fish-tail.
Chenoo (CR 7) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17065819&postcount=133)- Humans that committed a terrible crime and froze their heart, becoming undead monsters that grow as they eat people.
Cihuateotl (CR 12) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17094748&postcount=154)- The spirits of women who died in childbirth, with skeletal faces and eagle claws.
Cipactli (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16949580&postcount=92)- Horrid mixtures of frog, fish, and crocodile, covered in dozens of hungry mouths. They dwell deep in swamps and eat anything they can fit in their mouths.
Disemboweler (CR 6) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17086022&postcount=145)- A female monster that kills people who are alone at night, by whispering terrible jokes that make them laugh until their stomachs explode.
Fsti Capcaki (CR 7) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?170253-Critters-II!&p=17206908&viewfull=1#post17206908)- Tall, hairy, extremely strong forest-dwelling humanoid, wields heavy branches and tree trunks as weapons.
Flying Head (CR 2) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17487399&postcount=267)- After a particularly violent demise, the head of the victim detaches and grows, becoming huge and winged.
Gaasyendietha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17166476&postcount=191)- A huge, aquatic dragon that flies through the air on a trail of fire. Also known as a 'Meteor Dragon'.
Geldegwsets (CR 5) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16892928&postcount=38)- giants that live in rivers and streams, known to be friendly to humans that are respectful.
Haakapaizizi (CR 15) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16947044&postcount=937)- A massive giant that can take the form of a grasshopper.
Harvestmen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328094-Call-to-Brew!-Crossroads&p=17229662&viewfull=1#post17229662)- Monstrous long-legged arachnids.
Hokhoku (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358858-Hokhoku-Brain-eating-giant-ravens-Crossroads)- Enormous, terrifying ravens that feed on eyes and brains.
Horned Alligator (CR 4) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16890001&postcount=16)- A mystic crocodile with single horn, which can be removed and made into various items.
Hvcko Capko (CR 9) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17137433&postcount=176)- A foul beast with the head of a wolf, the tail of a horse, and large eyes. It smells awful, and carries diseases.
Indacinga (CR 20) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17206833&postcount=949)- A enormous, terribly strong giant, which can tear houses or trees out of the ground
Ishigaq (CR 1/2) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16899686&postcount=64)- Tiny humanoids so light they leave no footprints on the snow.
Kiwahkw (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17469744&postcount=980)- the undead form of a dark spellcaster, that can change size at will, release a terrible, killing scream, regrow from injuries. The stronger the spellcaster, the stronger the Kiwahkw.
Matlose (CR 5) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17281197&postcount=955)- A black-furred humanoid that paralyzes its victims with a fearsome scream.
Obsidian Butterfly Swarm (CR 4) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17283841&postcount=213)- A swarm of obsidian butterflies that leave bleeding wounds and shred fragile objects.
Paija (CR 5) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17281197&postcount=955)- A grotesque, cannibalistic female, covered in hair, with a single legs that emerges from her lady parts. Her gaze can petrify her victims.
Siat (male) / Bapet (female) (CR 5) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?170253-Critters-II!&p=17407828&viewfull=1#post17407828)- The males capture children, and the females suckle them on poisonous milk. Only vulnerable to obsidian weapons.
Sisuitl (CR 14) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359449-Sisiutl-two-headed-sea-serpent-from-the-Pacific-Northwest-P-E-A-C-H)- A massive, two-headed sea serpent with a false face in the middle of the body.
Skatene (CR 4) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?170253-Critters-II!&p=17352082&viewfull=1#post17352082)- An ogrelike woman who can turn into an owl and decapitates victims.
Spirit Beasts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339920-Spirit-Beasts-Epic-Monsters-Items-Crossroads)- Immensely powerful elemental creatures, blending of animal and element, bridges between the mortal and the spirit world.
Tah-Tah-Kle‘-Ah (CR 10) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?170253-Critters-II!&p=17407820&viewfull=1#post17407820)- An evil ogress who kidnaps children in a pitch-lined basket, and may capture hunters to marry them.
Tammatuyuq (CR 4) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?170253-Critters-II!&p=17370341&viewfull=1#post17370341)- A cannibal monster, who turns human to gain the trust of a mother with a young child, then stabs a straw through the soft spot and sucks out their brain.
Tizheruk (CR 10) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17289479&postcount=214)- A huge, whale-like aquatic creature, that rams opponents with its enormous head.
Tsiatko (CR 3) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17053896&postcount=943)- Very tall, thin humanoids that live high in the mountains and speak with whistles. They make corpses into paralytic powder.
Uncegila (CR 21) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17208507&postcount=197)- A huge, all but unkillable monster, with almost-impenetrable adamantine scales. Swallows victims whole, but is vulnerable from within.
White Buffalo (CR 15) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17113967&postcount=166)- Sacred animals and messengers of powerful spirits, with great magical powers that can speak the languages of men.
Xiuhcoatl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17094958&postcount=155)- An enormous turquoise dragon serpent, wreathed in sapphire flames, commanded by the gods against those who displease them.
Yumilekax (CR 3) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16905495&postcount=76)- A mystical deer with wooden horns, some even bearing a beehive among their antlers. A protector of the forests that's immune to arrows.
Imported
Bì Xié (CR 9) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16885597&postcount=4)- A winged, lion-like creature, a force of good whose presence alone wards off evil.
Black Shuck (CR 15) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328175)- A huge, black, undead hound, a portent of death, but it will occasionally escort travelers along dangerous roads or watch over children.
Clurichaun (CR 2) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16890763&postcount=20)- A leprechaun who has been exposed to alcohol and transformed over years of abuse. Constantly drunk and surly, and raids cellars.
Feng Huang (CR 12) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16902164&postcount=70)- A mystical pair of birds, male and female, whose presence is a portent of wealth and good fortune.
Lutin (CR 2) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16890624&postcount=17)- A shape-shifting house-spirit, which can take the form of animals, move through air and earth, or turn invisible.
Nián Shòu (CR 16) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16894585&postcount=46)- A large creature with a bull's body and a lion's head. It emerges from the sea on the Chinese new year to consume the Han people, but it can be repelled by the color red and loud noises.
Pixie, Garden (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359254-The-Common-Garden-Pixie-decorative-(and-highly-invasive)-Old-World-fey)- Tiny plant-like fey, imported to decorate European gardens, and became highly invasive.
Rhinemaiden (CR 6) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16892549&postcount=36)- Seductive water spirits which hoard gold at the bottom of their rivers and pools.
Sin-you (CR 6) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16900338&postcount=65)- A large creature, resembling a mix of lion and bull, with a singe stright horn. Attacks liars and the guilty.
Zhènniǎo (CR 5) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16896743&postcount=52)- 'Poison-feather birds', green and purple birds with highly venomous talons and beaks, and a toxic contact poison on their feathers.
Unfinished New Monsters
Native
Anaye- A group of extremely powerful beings born to virgins who partook of unnatural practices. Most were destroyed. Remaining anaye include Hunger, Poverty, Old Age, and Cold.
Auvekoejak- Mermaid-like creature with polar bear fur instead of scales.
Dust Devil- Dead human spirits who temporarily return to the mortal world. If it spins clockwise, it’s a good spirit, if it spins counterclockwise, it is evil.
Emogoalekc- Once human, turned partially into a sea monster when he threw himself into the sea to drown.
Ewah- A demon that drives anyone who sees it insane, so there are no reports of what it looks like.
Haietlik- flying serpents of electricity that often travel with thunderbirds.
Hakulaq- A female monster that controls the weather. Her infant looks human and she sets him to float in a basket, such that kind-hearted people will rescue him. When they take him to shore, she appears and wipes out their village, claiming they stole her child.
Hayicanako- A colossal woman who lives deep underground and supports the earth (somewhat like atlas). Earthquakes happen when she gets weak from hunger, and can be stopped by throwing meat into deep holes.
Hinqumemen- A living lake that drowns victims, particularly when they try to take buckets of it away.
Hoga- An enormous fish-like monster with pig ears, thick whiskers, and large tusks. It can change colors.
Ikuutayuq- A female monster who kills victims at a ritual circle by drilling holes in them until they die.
Imap Umassoursa- An enormous monster that looks like a floating island, and hunts by flipping boats and eating the drowned sailors.
Inung- A spirit pest that enters the body of a living creature and lives there until they die. After death, it emerges as a flickering light.
Inupasugjuk- Great arctic giants that live on the sea ice at the north pole and visit the mainland during winter when the sea ice is thick enough to support their weight.
Jackalope- A rabbit with deer antlers and a pheasant’s tail.
Jokao/Stonecoats- Men with stone skin and stone canes that eat people. Repelled by menstruating women.
Kachina- Highly varied spirits representing embodiments of various things in the world, such as stones or insects or stars.
Kaitorak- A powerful forest spirit. Twigs cut from the spirit still have much of it’s power.
Katutajuk/Katyutayuuq/Katyn Tayuuq- A large head with stubby legs and arms. Devours everything, and is strong enough to burst through the walls of an igloo.
Kaneakeluh- A great cosmic bird that first brought fire to men.
Kashehotapolo- A man-deer that dwells in the forest, that runs so fast nobody has seen it clearly.
Kawatilikalla- Wolves that can take off their skins and become humans.
Kelok- A winged beast whose body explodes in flames.
Kitzinackas- A friendly water serpent with supernatural power that can be invoked in rituals.
Koguhpuk- Huge mammalian creatures that live underground because the sun will kill them. They only come to the surface during the long night in the depth of winter.
Kolowisi- A horned water serpent with sharp fangs that can take the form of a baby.
Kushtaka- Were-otters. Some stories paint them as cruel tricksters, other paint them as friendly and helpful. They may turn humans into kushtaka to save them from drowning.
La Llorona- An ancient ghost that drowned her children before drowning herself. Appears around rivers and lakes all through mexico and drowns children that come too close.
Lenapizka- An amphibious creature that lives in lakes.
Mamagwasewug- Forest-dwelling fairy-like creatures that are two feet tall with fur on their faces. They sail stone canoes.
Mi-Ni-Wa-Tu- A large mammalian creature with red fur, one eye, one forehead horn, and a spiked beaver’s tail that lives in rivers and swims very fast.
Moogie- A lizard-like creature that lives in the Ozarks.
Nagual- Humans with the power to shape shift into an animal related to their day of birth.
Nalusa Falaya- A small shadow-creature that consumes the souls of the depressed.
N-dam-keno-wet- A hybrid of fish and human (not a merman) who loves to molest women in the bath.
Neglected Ancestral Spirit- The spirits of ancestors that chose to remain on the spirit world to guide their progeny and have since been neglected and twisted to evil.
Nunyenunc- A giant predatory bird that grabs people and flies them off to it’s nest to be consumed.
Ogopogo- 40-50 foot sea serpent that dwells in Okanagan lake.
Old Man of the Mountain- An enormous stone giant slumbering, buried in a mountain.
Onnoint- A giant horned snake that uses its magic horns to control the earth and crush enemies.
Oshadagea- A great eagle that carries water through the air in a hollow on it’s back. Puts out fires and spreads dew.
Paiyuk- A highly aggressive aquatic elk that hunts humans as it’s prey.
Pal-Rai-Yuk- Bizzare creature with six pawed legs, two fox heads, three stomachs, three dorsal fins, Thick fur, a froglike tongue, a fish/whale like tail and a serrated ridge on it’s back.
Palulukon- A powerful water serpent that can stop the earth’s spin and stop springs from flowing if people stop living in harmony with nature.
Piasa- A huge, scaled, catlike creature with deerlike horns, a very long tail with a fish tail on the end, and red eyes.
Pskegdemus- A female ghost that dwells in swamps. In some stories, it’s malevolent being, luring children to their demise. In others, it’s a tragic figure, having lost her own children she call out to children from loneliness.
Quailertetang- A seal-man hybrid that serves Sedna, the sea goddess. It observes humans and reports on their wrongdoings.
Quinametzin- The former residents of the world, extinguished by the god for failure to worship them. Giants large enough to move great blocks of stone by themselves.
Raw Gums- A fearsome magician and cannibal, raw guns is a human transformed through his own evil magic and his diet of eating chiefs. He raises the bodies of the chiefs he eats as undead servants.
Sa-Yin- A water monster that resembles a centaur.
Sio Humis- Happy and friendly rain spirits.
Skunk, Dire- Self-explanatory
Snawfus- A pure white deer with plants and flowers gowing from it’s antlers. It’s hooves split into fingerlike digits, allowing it to climb and swing through the trees. It creates thunder, and blue clouds in autumn.
Stcemqestcint- Humanlike creatures that wear nothing but buffalo skin and can turn into trees to hide. If you stare at one that’s hiding as a tree for a long time, it may become stuck as a tree.
Stikini- A race of people able to turn into horned owls. At night they regurgitate their organs and turn into owls to enter the homes of their victims and steal their still-beating hearts. Once they turn back into humans, they re-swallow their organs. Owl-feathered arrows deal extra damage to them.
Sundew, Giant- A giant predatory plant.
Tcipitckaam- A crocodile-like sea serpent with a yellow horn projecting out of it’s forehead. It can turn into a handsome young man to lure women close to drown them.
Teehooltsoodi- A massive otter with bull-like horns. It can control water and create floods.
Teyu-Yagua- A reptile monster with seven dog heads that breath fire, and shiny skin. Very powerful, but calm and harmless.
Thelgeth- Hairy, headless, man-eating creatures. Members of the Anaye family of monsters.
Tlahuelpuchi- A human who develops the power to shape shift during puberty. They must suck the blood of infants. Females are more common, and more powerful, than males.
Tlanuhwa- Great red-tailed hawks with great mystical power.
Tsanahale- Resembling harpies, they have human female torsos with eagle-like wings and taloned legs.
Ugjuknarpak- Enormous rodent with a prehensile tail and extremely hard-to-break skin. Capable of swimming.
Wakandagi Pezi- A water serpent with deer antlers and hooves on it’s feet. It gets jealous when people swim in its waters, and shoots bombs of water to blow up canoes.
Wasgo- Sea wolves, a sort of seal with a longer, more wolfish snout. They hunt in large packs to take down small whales, and may attack swimmers.
Yagim- A fearsome sharklike creature, with a bright red body. It’s extremely bloodthirsty.
Imported
Baba Yaga- An evil old woman who flies in a cauldron and lives in a cottage that walks on chicken legs. A powerful witch.
Gwyllion- A terrifyingly ugly female elf. You must be polite and kind or it will bring destruction on your home. Known to cause travelers to become lost.
Hsigo- Noisy beasts, resembling monkeys with feathered arms that can unfold into wings. Good at throwing things.
Jersey Devil- Human babies cursed while in the womb or during birth, they become horrible demonic creatures upon birth, with batlike wings, hooved feet, a goat’s head, and a forked tail.
Jīn Chán- A red-eyed bullfrog with only one back leg and seven spots on it’s back. It’s attracted to gold and valuable materials.
Le Nain Rouge- A French dwarf-spirit that came from Europe and now lives near Fort Detroit.
Péng- An enormous creature that transforms from a fish to a bird and back.
Penghou- A forest spirit with the body of a black dog with no tail, and the face of a man. Dwells in trees and escapes when the tree is cut down.
Pixie, Feral- Garden pixies that have escaped and spread into the wild, becoming much wilder than their more tame cousins.
Sinterklaas- Saint Nickolas, who has recently added a new world leg to his journey.
Wittewijven- Undead spirits of wise women that haunt burial sites and sacred places, offering either help or harm to those who approach, depending on the nature of the spirit in question.
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:50 PM
1: Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17391600&viewfull=1#post17391600)
2: System Changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391607&viewfull=1#post17391607)
3: Player Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391616&viewfull=1#post17391616)
4: Bestiary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391623&viewfull=1#post17391623)
5: The Cahokian League
6: Tuniitaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391631&viewfull=1#post17391631)
7: Aztatlan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391638&viewfull=1#post17391638)
8: Columbia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391643&viewfull=1#post17391643)
9: Fusang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391653&viewfull=1#post17391653)
10: The Spirit World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391660&viewfull=1#post17391660)
11: Beyond the New World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391666&viewfull=1#post17391666)
12: Canon Details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391669&viewfull=1#post17391669)
The Cahokian League
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/photos-illinois/CahokiaMounds-old.jpg
The Cahokian League is a massive trade empire that stretches from the Great Lakes to the Gulf of Mexico, from the Heaven-Touching Mountains in the west to the Green Mountains in the east. The tribes of the Great Plains, the Mississippi, and the woodlands of the southeast owe allegiance to the great city of Cahokia, the center of the league.
Cahokia itself is a hereditary oligarchy with a mostly-rigid political caste structure. The city is ruled by a number of wealthy, powerful Mound Families, each with one appointed Mound Lord (though the position is not always held by a male) who sits on a council with the other Mound Lords. The families control the city’s trade by partially owning almost all the businesses in the city, collecting a cut of the profits from each. They also hold a great deal of the magic in the city, each boasting a large number of powerful wizards, priests, druids, and shamans. Each family competes with the others, but the council has authority over all, settling disputes between families and making decisions for the city as a whole, such as acts of war and major alliances. Below the mound families are city dwellers, skilled craftsmen, merchants, and spellcasters who are usually beholden to one mound family or another. And below them, there are the mound builders, commoners who live in small farming communities. Each such village has a small mound where a mound family keeps their troops and their tax-collector. These mounds trade hands through agreements or through violence, though the exact name of the people collecting their crops is of little importance to the mound builders. There’s little mobility through the castes, though sometimes a mound family will adopt a promising city-dweller, or a mound builder will catch the eye of a city dweller and become an apprentice.
Outside the city, the politics are much simpler, decided on a tribal level, though each leader must give thorough consideration to the orders of the council, and the consequences for disobedience. Each client tribe swears to an agreement with Cahokia, trading their obedience to the city for highly beneficial trade arrangements and periodic gifts of supplies, horses, or weapons. The agreement is different for each tribe, but there are a few common points. The tribe must come to the defense of Cahokia or other client tribes when called upon, they cannot make war on other client tribes, and they cannot interfere with trade, though they can enforce the rules of it. Each tribe looks out for their own people and their own interests first, but many owe their livelihood to the city and will gladly follow their guidance. The strength of these bonds may be put to the test as the other four empires look toward the center of the continent for expansion.
Playing in the Cahokian League
The cahokian league is composed of many different tribes, many distinct cultures and groups coming together for a common goal.
Most human characters from the cahokian league will fall into one of five cultures. Native (Cahokia), Native (Great Plains), Native (Northeastern), Native (Southeastern), and Native (Southwestern). The cultures each encompass many distinct tribes and groups, allowing for a great deal of variation between two characters, even if they both have the same culture.
The cahokian league’s connection to tradition and strong natural-oriented lifestyle has made them the natural ally of the Little People, many of whom feel the invaders are upsetting the delicate balances they protect. Some remain independent of the humans entirely, and it’s important not to assume that all of them will be friendly.
Though they’re still a very small minority, the Spirit-born are most common here, and are often regarded highly and viewed as a valuable part of the tribe. Many are venerated as links between humans and the spirits of the animals. Some are still outcasts, particularly ones born of a spirit whose animal is regarded as evil, or a bad omen by their tribe.
Sasquatch can be found here and there through the cahokian league. Most are highly isolationist, resisting any attempts to contact them, either by fleeing or by killing anyone who gets too close to their homes. A small number, however, have come out of their self-imposed isolation enough to make friendly contact with some of the local tribes and perhaps even help out from time to time.
Adventurers in the cahokian league come in every description and every class, with many variations of each. But the most common classes are Hunter, Shaman, Druid, and Medicine Man. Hunters perform a vital role in ensuring the survival of a tribe, and many skilled hunters turn those skills to more aggressive ends to great effect. Shamans are rather common as well, with most sizable tribal groups having a shaman on hand, perhaps even one elder and a handful of apprentices. Druids and medicine men are more rare, the devotion required for either requiring much more study and learning.
The Cahokian League started at a dramatically less complicated level of technology than their foreign invaders, but they are rapidly closing the gap. Cahokia’s mound families tirelessly manufacture ironwood goods to fill the needs of the people, everything from simple tools and knives to the cahokian signature item, the ironwood musket. They also trade heavily with foreign groups like the french for firearms, gunpowder, and other advanced technology. They use their massive trade networks to disseminate this technology, at the right price, to their client tribes. Though some native technology is less advanced, that doesn’t make it any less effective. A bow and arrow is still a highly lethal weapon, and many hunters are amazingly skilled with them.
Timeline (Very Rough)
600 CE: Cahokia is founded as a simple settlement
900 CE: Mound-building begins at Cahokia and the city expands the reach of it’s trade.
1200 CE: The city is a huge mound-building center, with thriving trade
1300 CE: There is a large flood that ruins a sizable portion of the year’s maize crop, but quick action by the druids, shamans, and priests manages to save enough that the people can still be fed. Afterward, the city begins to take a more active spiritual role in replanting trees and maintaining good relations with the river and forest spirits.
1400 CE: A skillful deal with a forest spirit develops into the first ironwood spell, which quickly makes cahokia an extremely popular trading partner. However, rather than allow the secret to get out freely, cahokia enters arrangements with customer tribes to keep the ironwood in friendly hands. This agreement is the precursor to the modern client tribe system.
1541 Ce: Hernando De Soto arrives at the walls of cahokia with an army of disloyal natives and a battalion of spaniards, including mounted lancers. The battle initially goes the way of the spaniards, but when they try to light the palisade on fire, the native spellcasters cut loose and decimate the attacking force. The forces rally and the battle once again looks like it’s going to end poorly for cahokia, but one of the plains tribes arrives and the spaniards are crushed against the wall with magic pouring down on them.
1542 CE: The rebuilding begins, and the traditional wooden palisade is replaced with an ironwood palisade. Client tribe relations are strengthened, formalizing into the form they’re currently known as, and the cahokians promise swift and brutal destruction of any foreign force that lands on their shorelines.
1682 CE: Louisiana is founded by the french. The local mississippian tribes assault french landing parties, but the huge ships make them too big a threat to take down entirely. Stalemate is established.
1714 CE: A permanent settlement has arisen on the mouth of the mississippi, and the cahokians are forced to respond. They sail down the mississippi in force, with gunships of their own and ironwood cannons as a show of force. The french don’t want to leave, but the cahokians don’t want a major war (it cuts into profits) so they enter negotiations with the governor of the area at the time.
1718 CE: The city at the river’s mouth officially establishes a joint-ownership government. The Governor is married to the cousin of a Mound Lord and the two start to lead the city together, falling in love of the coming years. The two cultures begin to mix, until in the modern day the city’s main language is a creole of french and cahokian.
Map
Plot Hooks
One of the Mound-Dweller families has a druid son, who is almost strong enough to start producing ironwood muskets. The family doesn't want to risk him by sending him on a dangerous spirit quest, so they hire local talent to go to the spirit world and negotiate with a powerful nature spirit to grant him the power he needs.
The buffalo jump near Chimney Rock was used by the tribes of the Great Plains for thousands of years, before the introduction of horses allowed for more efficient hunting methods. The site is now used only for rituals in times of great need, to placate the Buffalo-Spirits when hunting is poor. Recently, a new Link has opened up on the site, but no one can find out where the Link leads, because a militant young Buffalo spirit-born warrior has gathered up a band of buffalo spirits with grievances against humans and camped out on the site to prevent humans from using it, either for buffalo spirit rituals or to utilize the Link. No one knows how long the Link will remain open, but with the warrior and his war-band guarding it, it seems unlikely that anyone will find out before it closes.
The patriarch of a prominent Mound-Dweller family is outraged: someone broke into his storage mound, and stole thousands of wampum worth of black powder. What's worse, the patriarch is pinning it on his greatest enemy, the head of another major Mound Lord family. Both sides are willing to pay handsomely to prove that the other party is responsible for the theft. But a thief who can carve through enchanted mounds with ease and steal many heavy barrels of powder without alerting the guards or tripping an alarm is certainly a force to be reckoned-with.
The local Algonquin lodge is in an uproar: a senior medicine man was smoking his peace pipe by himself, when an unknown spirit came down from the sky and destroyed him. Which spirit killed him? Why? And how can the tribe regain the blessing of the spirits?
A previously weak plains-tribe has suddenly acquired powerful weaponry, courtesy of a runaway Master Gunsmith from Fúsāng, who managed to escape across the Heaven-Touching Mountains with a cartload of enchanted firearms, crafted especially for the Imperial Guard. When he learned that his brother was to be executed for treason, he fled Fúsāng, taking his stock of enchanted weapons with him. One of the Mound Lords is willing to pay handsomely to have him retrieved and brought him safely to Cahokia. However, the Gunsmith is being pursued by Qing agents, and also by a group of British spellcasters with an unknown agenda.
The party passes through a village terrorized by a horde of skunks, which have come to the dangerous realization that humans fear them.
The titanic mother-bear of Sleeping Bear Dunes has been reawakened, and is ravaging the land in a frantic search for her long-dead cubs. Who can end her reign of terror, and send her safely back to sleep?
Cahokian League Material
NPCs
Lord Many-Earrings, senior Mound Lord
Standing Bird, his manservant/bodyguard
Alligator Robe, pole-barge captain
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:51 PM
1: Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17391600&viewfull=1#post17391600)
2: System Changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391607&viewfull=1#post17391607)
3: Player Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391616&viewfull=1#post17391616)
4: Bestiary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391623&viewfull=1#post17391623)
5: The Cahokian League (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391626&viewfull=1#post17391626)
6: Tuniitaq
7: Aztatlan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391638&viewfull=1#post17391638)
8: Columbia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391643&viewfull=1#post17391643)
9: Fusang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391653&viewfull=1#post17391653)
10: The Spirit World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391660&viewfull=1#post17391660)
11: Beyond the New World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391666&viewfull=1#post17391666)
12: Canon Details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391669&viewfull=1#post17391669)
Tuniitaq
http://kimhunter.ca/thumbnails/arctic_landscape_bear_painting.jpg
Tuniitaq is the land of giants and ice, a cold land, and a very large one. Tuniitaq’s southern border on the north edge of the great lakes then follows the edge of the pine forests across the continent all the way to the Heaven-touching mountains, then up along them until it reaches the shore of alasqa. From ocean to ocean, the land of tuniitaq is a beautiful but harsh land of long, cold winters, brief and beautiful summers, and pristine wilderness. Much of the land is shrouded in dense pine forests, woven through by the silvery ribbons of swift-running rivers and dotted with a great many lakes. the northernmost reaches of the mainland are devoid of trees, the sun too weak to support them there.
Tuniitaq is a loosely-organized confederacy of many different peoples.Each group is entirely self-governed, and no one group has the power to control the decisions of another, but they can all call on the other groups for aid, and while there are occasionally raids and other unpleasantness, there is no large-scale war within the confederacy. These political ties are bound by intermarriage, often strategic arranged marriages between groups but also, choice marriages are encouraged with neighboring groups. The end result being that everyone has family in every other group, which makes it somewhat more challenging to go to war against them.
The practice was started by the tuniit culture, who absorbed a wave of inuit who were ready to go to war against them by intermarrying, absorbing their technology and expanding their livable area dramatically. As the tuniit culture spread, they continued this practice with each new culture they came in contact with, until there were giants to be found among even the most distant groups. These giants serve as living examples of the connectivity of Tuniitaq, sometimes emerging from couples that both look perfectly normal, showing that every group in the north is bonded together with ties of family. These practices don’t seem to work with the europeans, who are too proud to allow their families to mingle, and will even go so far as to kill or abandon the giants that are born to keep the shame a secret.
Playing in Tuniitaq
Tuniitaq is made of many distinct tribes, but generally speaking the human groups fall into a handful of cultures. Native (Arctic) for those living north of the treeline and on the shoreline, Native (Subarctic) for those living in the dense pine forests, Native (Mammutcha) for the mammutcha people who live in a broad swath of forest down the middle of Tuniitaq, and Native (Vinlandr) for those living on the eastern coast who interbred with the norse settlers, establishing a stable mixed population and absorbing norse technology and writing. There’s a great deal of variation within these groups, but many of the broad strokes are very similar, particularly with the intermarriage that characterizes Tuniitaq.
The most common non-human race in tuniitaq would be the tuniit, the giants. These towering humans are created from a genetic trait originating from actual giants that, long ago, freely bred with the tuniit people. Since they made contact with other cultures, the tuniit have spread this trait all through the empire, until there are giants to be found in nearly every tribe. In the tuniit territory, the giants even outnumber the humans by a slim margin. Innunquac are also created from the lands of tuniitaq, humanoid shapes formed from stone and brought to life through the complex runes scribed all across their surfaces, the flow of magic mimicking many human functions. Created as servants to runecasters, the innunguac are freed to live their own lives once their creator passes on. Spirit-born are not unheard of in tuniitaq, and can even be relatively common in places where the spirits of animals are highly revered.
Adventurers in tuniitaq have many options for what sort of character they play. Most commonly, one can find Hunters, who have mastered techniques to kill game and put them to deadly use against other, more dangerous targets. Shamans and Medicine Men are common in the north, as the dangers of the climate can require supernatural assistance to overcome. Rune-casters can be found here and there, usually in larger settlements and trading posts, where learning to read and write is more accessible.
Tuniitaq had something of a leg up on their southern neighbors when it comes to technology, due to the vinlandrs supplying the rest of the confederacy with limited quantities of iron. For the most part, however, their technology is the same as that found in the cahokian league. They trade with the Fusangren and the French for valuable technology such as firearms and cannons, and the supplies to process materials of their own, such as shears and wool spinners to turn tsawo into yarn or even thinner fibers to make proper fabric.
Timeline (Very rough)
~1000 CE: A large number of mammoths leave Where We Do Not Hunt and spread into the territory south, establishing themselves once again.
~1100 CE: The people who will become the mammutcha, under the guidance of a mammoth spirit-born begin capturing and taming wild mammoths, taking the steps toward a proper domestication.
~1200 CE: Tuniit make contact with the western-moving Inuit. Initial contact is rough, but the tuniit eventually absorb the inuit over the next hundred years, gaining technology and gradually expanding their territory, absorbing or spreading into other populations they come into contact with.
~1300-1400 CE: The Vinland colony becomes separated from Iceland and falls apart, the survivors marrying into native groups of the area, merging into one mixed culture with metalworking, ship-building, and writing.
~1500 CE: First non-norse european contact in newfoundland, inhabited by vinlandrs. Initially it goes well, but when european ships start trying to overfish or edge out the vinland groups of the island, they respond violently.
~1600 CE: The mammut reach a state of full domestication, allowing the mammutcha to dramatically expand their territory southward.
Map
Plot Hooks
Gold has recently been discovered near the western edge of Tuniitaq, in a rugged region known only as “Alasqa”. Claims to the find are disputed by the Tuniit and the Russians, but while the two sides argue over land-rights and prior usage, prospectors from Fúsāng are moving in to stake their own claims.
An entire nomadic fishing-community is being followed by an enormous polar bear. The beast swims up under them and breaks through the ice beneath the center of their igloo-cluster to attack them, no matter where they move. The beast continues to rise up and attack from beneath, even after they move their village onto solid land.
During the night, someone (or a group of someones) cut the tusks off of every mammoth in the village, without waking a single beast or alerting the sentries. The young men say it was an attack by an enemy tribe, meant to shame them, but the elders disagree: if the they wanted to sabotage the village, then why did they leave the mammoths alive?
A naked man comes running into the party’s camp, his feet cut and bloodied by miles of jagged ice, pursued by three enraged hunters. The hunters claim that the naked man raped their sister, and their family’s honor demands his blood in payment for his crimes. The naked man claims that the hunters’ family are ancient enemies of his own: these men lay in wait outside his brother’s tent until he and his brother had gone inside and stripped off their wet hunting clothes, and while they were waiting for his brother’s wife to dry their garments, the hunters stabbed their spears through the wall of the tent. His brother was killed, but they missed the naked man, who claims he barely escaped with his life. The hunters scream that his lying tongue will not save him from them this time. Which side do the players choose to believe?
The Tuniit have put out a call for warriors of all descriptions, summoning them together for a single purpose: the chicken-legged hut of an exiled Russian necromancer has traveled to the site of a long-dormant Link; the house has not moved for weeks, and it appears to be using the Link as part of a ritual of some sort. All attempts to chase the necromancer off have been rebuffed by the secretive Muscovite's undead minions. The Tuniit shamans foresee terrible calamity if the ritual is not stopped.
Tuniitaq Material
NPCs
Kivioq the Hunter (Lv. 24 immortal human Hunter)
Jean-Pierre Descomps dit Labadie (Lv. 10 human Voyageur)
Brother LaForge (French missionary, lv. 4 human Cleric)
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:52 PM
1: Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17391600&viewfull=1#post17391600)
2: System Changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391607&viewfull=1#post17391607)
3: Player Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391616&viewfull=1#post17391616)
4: Bestiary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391623&viewfull=1#post17391623)
5: The Cahokian League (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391626&viewfull=1#post17391626)
6: Tuniitaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391631&viewfull=1#post17391631)
7: Aztatlan
8: Columbia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391643&viewfull=1#post17391643)
9: Fusang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391653&viewfull=1#post17391653)
10: The Spirit World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391660&viewfull=1#post17391660)
11: Beyond the New World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391666&viewfull=1#post17391666)
12: Canon Details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391669&viewfull=1#post17391669)
Aztatlan
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ylphRxTbhlw/T9as8RLA0mI/AAAAAAAADOE/xQ55JkYcNBg/s1600/BladeRunner-24.jpg
Aztatlan is a realm located far to the south, it’s northern border where the deserts end and the jungles begin, and continuing south all the way to where the land narrows, from shore to shore. The area is a complex political scene, with dozens of small nation-states and a few larger empires, each laying claim to various stretches of land and almost constantly at war with one-another. The triple alliance is the largest of these empires, controlling a large empire in the north of the region, including a long, narrow strip that follows the shoreline and the river the spaniards call the rio grande. Jungles and mountains make for a harsh land, but one that provides great rewards to those who can tame it. Huge, terraced pyramids thrust out of the forest, artificial mountains that allow powerful priests to be closer to the gods as they make grisly sacrifices and plead for favor.
The triple alliance is mostly an alliance in name only, the group being dominated by the largest and strongest of the three cities that make it up, Tenochtitlan, ruled by the Mexica people. Politically, the city is a monarchy with a rigid caste system, nobles and priests above and commoners and soldiers below. There are a few ways to move up from commoner to noble, mostly through the military. A soldier that captures a certain number of soldiers for sacrifice rises up to become a noble. The priests have great political power in this empire, being the ones who feed the gods with blood to keep the sun from going out. Some of the most powerful and sanctified priests may undergo a ritual to be converted into deathless spiritual leaders, known as Amicqui.
Beyond the triple alliance, the largest empire is mayatolli, the land of the maya. Not really a unified empire, mayatolli is the combined area controlled by dozens of independent mayan city-states that are just as likely to war on each other as they are to band together against an exterior threat. There are other smaller empires, including the Tzintzuntzan, the Mixtec, the Zapotek, Totonacapan, Huastecapan, and many other smaller tribes through the narrowest regions. Spain controls a sizable stretch around the area known as Panama, using it as a place to portage their ships to the pacific to trade up the west coast into Fusang, an area known as Castilla del Oro.
Playing in Aztatlan
Human characters most commonly belong to one of three cultures. Native (Mexica) characters are members of the triple alliance, the principal power in aztatlan. Native (Maya) characters hail from one of the dozens of mayan city-states throughout mayatolli, each fiercely independent. Native (Mesoamerica) characters belong to one of the many empires and smaller tribes that can be found all through aztatlan. It’s also easy enough to find European (Frontier) characters that hail from the region, spaniards that live in Castilla del Oro or one of the smaller spanish settlements along the coast.
Adventurers in aztatlan come in many varieties. Gunslingers are rapidly becoming the main warriors of most empires, replacing the Brutes from the previous generations, though many still remain. Priests are very powerful in Aztatlan, both politically and mystically, and they can be found in numbers in almost any city in the region. Wizards are also more common than many other native areas, as the universal education of the triple alliance and the existence of a written language allow youngsters with arcane talent to be discovered and properly trained.
Aztatlan has, by this point, mostly mastered the technologies of firearms, cannons, and metalworking, thanks to captured spaniards and a great deal of experimentation. Some empires are still forced to trade for them, often at high rates, from the europeans or the fusangren, but the triple alliance is manufacturing its own and arming its soldiers en masse, making them one of the most dangerous military forces in the region.
Timeline (Must be converted)
1519-1600 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16822734&postcount=1100)
1600-1750 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17105648&postcount=1267)
Map
Click on the map below to visit the deviantART page and see the map's legend; just remove the automatically-appended quotation mark (") from the end of the URL.
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2014/078/c/b/aztlan_map__1600s_by_pointedstick-d779f75.jpg (http://pointedstick.deviantart.com/art/Aztlan-Map-1600s-435460145”)
Plot Hooks
Aztec priests receive an incomprehensible directive from Huitzilopochtli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli), the god of the sun, commanding them to build him a temple “in the land where my eye never closes”. But such a place surely cannot exist in this world. Can it?
The party comes across an Aztec youth freezing to death in the Heaven-Touching Mountains, armed with only an atlatl and a bundle of spears. After taking him in and letting him warm up a bit, the boy explains what he’s doing so far from home. His father, the master of Tenochtitlan’s feather-workers guild, has been publicly disgraced. The boy heard his father saying drunkenly over a mug of pulque that the scandal has so ruined his reputation that only the creation of an unparalleled masterpiece of feather-working could save his business now: a robe made from the feathers of the fabled Thunderbird. Does the party agree to help the boy in his mad and dangerous quest, or do they counsel him to return to his father, who may not have been speaking literally, and is no doubt half-mad with worry for his missing son?
The High Priest of Quetzalcoatl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl) has commissioned the greatest feather-robe in history, containing at least one feather from every species of bird which lives within the territory of Atzatlan. However, no hunter has been able to obtain a feather from one particular species: a small brown bird, mostly earthbound but a very fast runner, commonly known as “the road-running bird”.
Your party’s berserker discovers xocolātl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate); chaos and mayhem ensue.
A human village has recently been ravaged by a band of were-jaguars, but in their fear and haste to defend themselves they mistakenly retaliate against a nearby band of Tabaxi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/tabaxi), inviting full-scale war.
Aztatlan Material
NPCs
Seven-Crocodile, High Priest of Huitzilopochtli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli)
Three-Knife, captain of the Jaguar Knights
Seven-Grass, captain of the Eagle Knights
Eleven-Jaguar, prince of the Maya kingdom of B’alam
Six-Deer Aznar y López, half-Spanish sorceress
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:54 PM
1: Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17391600&viewfull=1#post17391600)
2: System Changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391607&viewfull=1#post17391607)
3: Player Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391616&viewfull=1#post17391616)
4: Bestiary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391623&viewfull=1#post17391623)
5: The Cahokian League (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391626&viewfull=1#post17391626)
6: Tuniitaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391631&viewfull=1#post17391631)
7: Aztatlan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391638&viewfull=1#post17391638)
8: Columbia
9: Fusang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391653&viewfull=1#post17391653)
10: The Spirit World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391660&viewfull=1#post17391660)
11: Beyond the New World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391666&viewfull=1#post17391666)
12: Canon Details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391669&viewfull=1#post17391669)
Columbia
http://landscapes.indigenousknowledge.org/static/files/assets/3cdca72b/image35.jpg
The colonies of Columbia are the combined holdings of all the european powers in the new world. They range all up and down the eastern shore of the new world, from New France in the north, through New England all along the eastern shore, to New Spain in Florida, and the french-cahokian city at the mouth of Mississippi. The powers bicker and squabble over the various islands in the caribbean, too, each eager to exploit the isles for their own use. The terrain is mostly forested, with the Green Mountains running through the inland areas of the colonies. The shoreline is jagged, full of coves, bays and little islands that are perfect to house ports and ships.
Politically, the colonies are divided by country, the governors and officials of each eager to keep what’s theirs out of the hands of their competitor countries. Governors are appointed by the monarchies back in England, serving until they step down or are replaced with some other appointed governor, depending on how they perform in the position. The governor is the authority in the colony, but most situations are well below their involvement, being managed by local mayors and police. But as the colonies become older and older and the native populations have more time to share their ideals, many of the colonists are becoming more dissatisfied with their lot in this arrangement, looking for more of a voice in their own government.
The colonies are mostly small farming communities at the moment, growing various new world and old world crops, with techniques learned from natives. The larger cities are on the shores, being centers of trade and commerce with europe that allow them to support a more wealthy, literate, and land owning population. Natives dwell on the margins, some opposing the newcomers, others glad to share and trade with them for technology and goods they can’t make themselves, or things from faraway lands.
Playing in Columbia
Columbia has a number of cultures, both native and foreign. European (British) represents recent newcomers from england or those who live a largely european-style life in the cities or well-isolated towns. European (Continental) can indicate people who come from many different mainland european countries, french and spanish being the most common, but dutch, portuguese, and other european powers are not unheard of to be found in Columbia. European (Frontier) represents those living out in the frontier region, with more contact with the natives and a much more humble living standard. Native groups can be found all through the colonies. Native (Northeast) live up in the northern half of the Columbia region, while Native (Southeast)cover the southern mainland. The caribbean islands are filled with Native (Caribbean) cultures, though some of them have been drastically reduced in numbers by disease and violence from the european colonists.
Columbia is very heavily human, the local authorities having a very dim view of ‘monsters’ and ‘devils’. That doesn’t mean that these areas are nonhuman free, but those who are must usually be at least a bit secretive to avoid attracting the attention of the authorities and the church. Witch-born are mostly exclusive to Columbia, hiding out under the radar of authorities. Those who are caught, regardless of their heritage, are usually either forced to flee or killed. Trollkin are also european in origin, their people being from those lands in the first place. There are a few bands of sasquatch to be found deep in the Green Mountains and the swamps of florida and louisiana, and some more aggressive little people will raid european settlements to try and drive them back into the sea.
Adventurers in Columbia come in many shapes. The most common class is the gunslinger, usually militiamen or guards that take their skill with their weapons to the next level. Priests are common too, differing sects and orders to be found in different parts of Columbia. Those with magical talent often flee from the continent to the new world, for more freedom to practice their craft and to study the magical practices of the new world as Wizards. Voyageurs can be found in the north and some of the wilder places, and some laborers and drunkards may end up becoming Brutes.
Columbia has a high technological level, with free and easy access to firearms, cannons, large, seagoing ships, clockwork, and similar. The only problem being that there are not yet that many places capable of building, fixing, and maintaining these more advanced technologies in large numbers, meaning most of the equipment must be shipped from europe itself.
Timeline (Under construction)
Map
http://www.trinityhistory.org/AmH/images/06British%20Colonies.jpg
Plot Hooks
The governor of Jamestown Colony is suffering from a painful sickness which no wizard in Columbia can cure. But he has heard “rumours of an itinerant False Face, whose Powers and Skill are legendarie amongst the savages”. But because of his wandering nature, none but God and the False Face know in which village he will next appear. And even if he is located, will he agree to help the Governor? And if he does, at what price comes his aid?
A Scarred Monk, recently returned from a missionary work at a trading post in Aztlan, is stirring up unrest in the southern colonies. He has been travelling from town to town with a caged Quetzal, displaying it before horrified crowds as “proof-certain that the Aztekas do most wickedly mock our Lord and Saviour, worshipping as they do this hideous merging of sinful Man and Wicked Serpent.” If this treatment of a sacred Quetzal becomes known to Aztec authorities, it will surely be taken as an unforgivable blasphemy, and will mean war between the two empires. The Scarred Monk must be silenced (discreetly!), and the creature returned alive and unharmed to his native lands.
An abandoned cart with the markings of a Fúsāngese trader is found outside a moderate-sized colonial settlement. While the presence of the cart is itself a mystery, it is the cart’s contents that have attracted fearful attention: a wooden box covered in strange rectangular pieces of paper. Curious bystanders found it empty, with deep scratch marks crisscrossing its interior.
Rumor has it that a Scarred Monk has gone rogue from the Inquisition. He, along with a group of fanatical followers, are planning to bring down a Thunderbird and burn it alive, allowing the Monk to absorb its power. Not only is the idea of such a man with that much power terrifying, but killing a Thunderbird in such a disrespectful way could have catastrophic consequences in the Spirit World.
The players are called-upon by the Boston Port Authority to investigate the strange foreigners which have lately been passing through Customs in suspiciously large numbers. They arrive on ships from different countries, speak different languages, and wear wildly different clothing, but many of them seem to know each other, and they share a certain resemblance: the men all have large noses and bulky frames, but the women are all willowy and lovely. They arrive by ones and twos, but they only leave the city in wagon-trains of twenty or more, and always heading north, towards the mountains of New England.
Columbia material
NPCs
Padre Costa (Scarred Monk)
Benjamin Franklin (Alchemist, Natural Philosopher)
Wades-In-The-Shallows (Iroquois Medicine Man)
Young Master Washington (Lv. 3 Human Noble)
Ollie Sigurdsen (Trollkin Revivalist cult-leader)
Hawkeye, a.k.a The Deerslayer, a.k.a. Leatherstockings
François-Dominique Toussaint Louverture (future slave-revolt general, age 7)
Inky Jack (one-armed vodou priest)
Prudence Whatley (Former slave-turned-revolutionary-and-evangelist)
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:55 PM
1: Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17391600&viewfull=1#post17391600)
2: System Changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391607&viewfull=1#post17391607)
3: Player Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391616&viewfull=1#post17391616)
4: Bestiary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391623&viewfull=1#post17391623)
5: The Cahokian League (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391626&viewfull=1#post17391626)
6: Tuniitaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391631&viewfull=1#post17391631)
7: Aztatlan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391638&viewfull=1#post17391638)
8: Columbia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391643&viewfull=1#post17391643)
9: Fúsāng
10: The Spirit World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391660&viewfull=1#post17391660)
11: Beyond the New World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391666&viewfull=1#post17391666)
12: Canon Details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391669&viewfull=1#post17391669)
Fúsāng
http://digital-art-gallery.com/oid/10/640x266_3291_Triumphant_Return_Of_The_Ming_Dynasty _Naval_2d_landscape_ships_chinese_fantasy_picture_ image_digital_art.jpg
Fúsāng is a beautiful land on the western coast. Officially, they claim all the lands between the Heaven-Touching Mountains and the western shoreline to be theirs, but in truth they are only slowly spreading inland, much of their power and population concentration located directly on the coastline. The land of Fúsāng starts in the north at the uppermost point of the temperate rainforest, in the shadow of the mountains dividing it from Alasqa. From there it extends all the way south to their trading post in Aztatlan, including the massive rainforests in the north, the arid, desert-like lands in the distant south, and everything in between.
Politically, the realm of Fúsāng is ruled by Her Radiant Majesty the Empress, who rules from her capital city in Jade Harbor, at the southern end of the rainforest. The empress holds the legacy of the Ming dynasty in her veins, the direct descendant of the infant princess who was rescued from the Qing. She appoints governors to the various provinces of Fúsāng, each one centered in the largest cities of the realm, who rule by extension of her authority until replaced or relieved of duty. These governors then appoint leaders of the various cities and towns in their district, and report regularly to the Empress. Some of these governors are very powerful figures, others are posted in the remote reaches of the empire as more of a punishment than anything.
From the outside, the empire looks very stable and peaceful, the only major outside forces threatening them being the distant Qing, and the relatively weak Haida. But the nation is a divided one. The people are divided amongst each other on many issues, and there are rebellious factions, pirates, corrupt officials, greedy black-market merchant families, uncooperative martial art schools, and a fundamental division around the simple question: What does Fúsāng do now? The Azure Dragon party wishes to make the new world their home forever, a new homeland in a rich and fertile land. The Gold Dragon party wishes to return to China’s mainland with an army, to take back the homeland they were exiled from.
Playing in Fúsāng
Fúsāng proper is made of only two cultures, but their region touches a great many native populations, and some less human ones. Han (Mainland) refers to characters who are either recently from China, or were raised in very traditional households in Fúsāng. Han (Frontier) refers to characters who live out in the more wild parts of the nation, where there’s less traditional influence on the daily life. There are many native groups in Fúsāng’s area, including Native (California), Native (Northwest Coast), Native (Great Basin), Native (Plateau), and Native (Southwest). All of these cultures have a good deal of variation within them, making Fúsāng one of the most diverse regions, culturally, though the Fúsāngrén don’t have a great track record for respecting cultures other than their own.
Fúsāng is one of the few areas where a non human race has significant territory and their own distinct culture. The Sasu Qua’che, the Sasquatch culture of the northwest coast, are granted domain over the Great Forests to the north of Jade Harbor by imperial decree, as part of their agreement the the Empress to maintain the forests and oppose the enemies of the empire within it. Spirit-Born found in the main cities of the empire are usually killed at birth, but in the fringes of the settlements, they can be found, though their existence is generally hidden from outsiders to the community. Little people in the Heaven Touching Mountains have made it all but impossible for Fúsāngrén to make it across the barrier.
Adventurers in Fúsāng come in many varieties. Gunslingers make up much of the military in the area, and it’s relatively easy to transfer from the service of the military to a freelance adventurer. Martial artists are relatively easy to find, there being schools devoted to teaching the various styles scattered through the eastern empire. Priests are easy enough to find, wandering monks doing good deeds all through the land, or in monasteries. Wizards are also easy to find, as the Qing paid special attention to wiping out the Ming dynasty’s spellcasting legacy, driving a great deal of practitioners across the sea to the new world. Sasu Qua’che make dangerous brutes, and they also have a great deal of shamans.
The technology in Fúsāng is quite advanced, with many skilled craftsmen loyal to the old empire brought over during the expulsion from their homeland. Fúsāngrén gunsmiths and alchemists mix the most powerful gunpowder and carefully craft each rifle with skill and precision. Fúsāngrén shipwrights create masterful ships, marvels of engineering ranging from the titanic treasure ships, to swift and maneuverable riverboats. The only issue they face on technology is resources. Cut off from large-scale trade by hostile pirates and Haida raiders, Fúsāng must fend for itself with it comes to providing materials for its industries. Thankfully, the land is bountiful, but the trouble is getting the ores, the wood, the goods out of their hiding places and where they can be used. The existing industry can barely keep up with demand, and it doesn’t help they keep losing supply ships to raiders and pirates.
Timeline (Under construction)
Map (Under construction)
Plot Hooks
The Imperial Kitchen-Master has recently been unable to prepare any dishes which satisfy Her Radiant Majesty’s discerning palette. He believes that he may be able to please her with an entirely new dish, something which no one in Fúsāng has ever tasted before. He has recently heard a rumor that far to the north, the Tuniit maintain herds of enormous woolly elephants. He has tasted their preserved meat, and believes that if he could obtain a live mammoth, and slaughter it for Her Radiant Majesty’s table, he would finally have the ingredient he requires to truly express his creative genius.
The Radiant Throne has commissioned the First Grand Imperial Survey of the lands which lie to the east of the Heaven-Touching Mountains. Any Fúsāngese citizen with knowledge of these lands will be richly rewarded for imparting such knowledge to the Imperial Cartographers. Even greater compensation awaits any native of these lands who is willing to act as guide and translator to the Her Radiant Majesty’s Explorational Fellowship.
A Fúsāngese scholar, exploring the ruins of the vanished Anasazi, has disappeared mysteriously. Her Radiant Majesty is offering a sizable sum to anyone who can uncover what happened to him. The only clues left are in the final message he sent back, which spoke of how the temple was focused on the journey of Mars, and mentioned a single word encountered time and time again: Barsoom.
Fúsāng Material
NPCs
Captain of the Nameless (i.e. Her Radiant Majesty's personal bodyguards)
Many-Pearls, Chief of the richest tribe in Fúsāng
Peach-Pit Ping, lv. 8 human Drunken Boxer (a jovial pot-wearing wanderer who plants peaches wherever he travels along the frontiers of Fúsāng; only he does this because he likes to drink peach liquor, not just because he likes to eat them).
Longtooth (once a notorious Sasquatch bandit, he was eventually defeated by a powerful wu jen and forced to wear a Golden Headband of Obedience until he atones for his misdeeds)
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:56 PM
1: Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17391600&viewfull=1#post17391600)
2: System Changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391607&viewfull=1#post17391607)
3: Player Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391616&viewfull=1#post17391616)
4: Bestiary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391623&viewfull=1#post17391623)
5: The Cahokian League (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391626&viewfull=1#post17391626)
6: Tuniitaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391631&viewfull=1#post17391631)
7: Aztatlan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391638&viewfull=1#post17391638)
8: Columbia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391643&viewfull=1#post17391643)
9: Fusang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391653&viewfull=1#post17391653)
10: The Spirit World
11: Beyond the New World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391666&viewfull=1#post17391666)
12: Canon Details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391669&viewfull=1#post17391669)
The Spirit-World
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rj7CeW3zK9Q/TLRdbJ_13MI/AAAAAAAAAig/QKF4MAajmJQ/s1600/culchanplains2.jpg
The Spirit World is a land beyond our mortal plane, the only other plane in the world of Crossroads. It is a strange and hard-to-navigate place, particularly to those who have never experienced the strangeness it offers. It is where the souls of the dead go when they pass on, or where the linger when they refuse to. It is the world of the spirits, the beings of myth and legend of the people on the mortal world. Nobody’s quite sure if the myths are born from the spirits, or if the spirits are born of the myths, and the spirits certainly aren’t in a hurry to find out. It is a mystical place, where powerful spirits and godly avatars walk in flesh, but reshape the world to their whims.
The Spirit World is always there, on the other side of the veil, a reflection of the mortal world, but shaped by thoughts and beliefs. The collective belief of the people living in an area will actively alter the shape of the Spirit World around them. If they truly believe there is a being, or a place, in the world beyond this one, that belief will slowly make itself true. Every place on the material world exists as a spirit version on the Spirit World, but not every place on the Spirit World exists on the mortal world, these extra places inserted between real places, or sometimes existing on top of them, the two separated by nothing more than going around an obstacle in a different way, or by walking through a threshold backward.On top of such strangeness, the geography acts strangely there, two points sometimes being closer on the Spirit World than they are in reality, sometimes further apart. An important point to note is that going to the world in one place may be dramatically different than going to it in another place, the beliefs of those living there altering the landscape such that it’s almost it’s almost unrecognizable as the same plane.
Planar Traits
Physical Traits:
Objective directional gravity: Gravity works in strange ways on this plane, usually following the same rules as the material world, but sometimes shifting unexpectedly or behaving strangely in some places.
Erratic Time: Time on the Spirit World is a strange animal, sometimes moving faster, sometimes slower, seemingly at random. It averages out to about the same, but an unlucky traveler could spend a few minutes on the spirit world to find a week has passed on the mortal world, or may spend a week on a spiritual journey, only to find they’ve only been out of body for an hour or two. While on this plane, signs of time ar similarly unreliable, the sun rising or setting arbitrarily, the stars emerging while the sun’s still up, the moon roaming through a dozen phases, some not even possible, in the space of an hour.
Infinite Size: Every place on the mortal world has a spiritual mirror image, but there are infinitely more places to go on the spirit world than on the mortal one, some places occupying the same spo, merely accessed separately by going left around an obstacle rather than right or in some other, seemingly arbitrary way.
Divinely Morphic: The spirit world is affected by the actions of those on it the same way the mortal world is. However, many powerful spirits can alter the landscape dramatically with seemingly no effort on their part, particularly in certain parts under different domains. For example, an earth spirit may not be able to reshape the clouds, but may be powerful enough to raise a mountain.
Visiting the Spirit World
There are two distinct ways to access the spirit world.
The first is through projection, separating your soul from your body and sending it to roam the plane for you. While on the spirit world in this way, you can move, act, and change things freely, but what you do on the spirit plane cannot come back with you and you cannot leave things behind. For example, retrieving an item from the spirit world, or delivering an item to it, would be impossible using this method, though you could slay a spirit or speak to an important spirit in this way. This method is also safer, as when your soul is reduced to 0 HP you instantly snap back to your body, unharmed but unconscious for one hour after the ordeal.
The second is physical travel. You move bodily to the spirit world, bringing all your belongings and your body with you. This can be accomplished through the use of a natural portal, such as those found in certain caves, or by using a spell to shift yourself there. While on the plane in this way, you are physically, completely present, and can interact with the world and take or leave things as you desire. This method also allows you to travel through the plane, though such a prospect is unreliable without a proper guide.
The Spirits
There are many different kinds of spirits living on the spirit world. Native denizens of the spirit world are outsiders, beings made entirely of belief and the stuff of the spirit world itself. These spirits can be divided up into various groups.
Spirits of Life: These are spirits of creatures that are alive, or have been alive as long as they continue to dwell in the minds of the world. The Named Animals fall under this category.
Spirits of Herd These are the spirits of animals that are largely prey to other animals, like buffalo or mice.
Spirits of Hunt These are the spirits of animals that are largely predators of other animals, like wolves or eagles.
Spirits of Wood These are the spirits of plants of all sorts, such as trees or flowers.
Spirits of Ancestors These spirits are human souls, converted into full outsiders after lingering on the spirit world.
Spirits of Nature: These are spirits of fundamental forces and substances, the building blocks of the world, and they can be formed from anything. Some can even be formed of multiple elements.
Spirits of Earth These are spirits of earth, stone, dirt, and metal.
Spirits of Flame These are spirits of fire, heat, and the sun.
Spirits of Sky These are spirits of air, wind, and weather.
Spirits of Water These are spirits of oceans, rivers, and rain.
Spirits of Soul These are spirits invented wholesale by the minds of humans to represent pure alignment, good, evil, law and chaos, or sometimes more than one at a time.
Spirits of Evil These spirits take the form of demons, devils, and other monsters.
Spirits of Good These spirits take the form of angels, celestials, and other sacred creatures.
Spirits of Law These spirits take the form of constructs, machines, and insects.
Spirits of Chaos These spirits take on shifting, fluid forms, like blobs, swarms, or pure energy.
Playing in the Spirit World
The spirit world does not have a human population, beyond the spirits of the ancestors, and they’ve forsaken their humanity. Still, spirits of the dead from every culture can be found here, wandering the reflection of the world they knew in life. Some are twisted into monsters by regret and sorrow, others, simply lingering to see the fruits of their labors. Others have long since their role in the tale of the world come to an end and are trapped, unable to move on any further.
The most common non humans in the Spirit World are the shadow people, who easily outnumber the lingering dead. The shadow folk are born from beliefs, like all those born on the Spirit World, but they are born from beliefs about other humans. The shadow folk are the manifestation of human beliefs about themselves, their neighbors, about the populace of distant lands, made from stereotypes and misunderstandings, but just as often shaped by outside observance and undeserved flattery. These people are also a part of the Spirit World, and their understanding of it makes them seem all the stranger. The shadow folk inhabit lands over where their source material is to be found, but the spirits of the dead from that realm may find their shadows almost unrecognizable.
Adventurers in the Spirit World world can be from anywhere, from any culture, from any time in history. Modern souls visit, but the spirits of the ancestors linger on, doing deeds and continuing their adventures in the afterlife. Some hold ancient traditions of combat, using primitive weapons or ancient techniques, others use more modern developments. Shadow folk behave similarly to their human counterparts, but often use slightly different techniques or abilities than them.
Technology works the same on the Spirit World as it does in the material one… for the most part. Compasses usually work fine, but the shifting nature of the plane makes them poor tools for navigation, and they will sometimes spin uselessly in spirit places that don’t exist on the material world. A gun will fire normally most of the time, but powerful spirits can do things like stop the fire from reaching the powder, or bend the metal barrel, or conjure a gust of wind to deflect the shot. Even melee weapons are sometimes unreliable.
Plot Hooks
Spirit World Material
NPCs
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:57 PM
1: Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17391600&viewfull=1#post17391600)
2: System Changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391607&viewfull=1#post17391607)
3: Player Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391616&viewfull=1#post17391616)
4: Bestiary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391623&viewfull=1#post17391623)
5: The Cahokian League (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391626&viewfull=1#post17391626)
6: Tuniitaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391631&viewfull=1#post17391631)
7: Aztatlan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391638&viewfull=1#post17391638)
8: Columbia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391643&viewfull=1#post17391643)
9: Fusang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391653&viewfull=1#post17391653)
10: The Spirit World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391660&viewfull=1#post17391660)
11: Beyond the New World
12: Canon Details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391669&viewfull=1#post17391669)
Beyond the New World
World Map (https://coursewikis.fas.harvard.edu/aiu18/images/Bellin_world_map_1750.jpg) (not strictly accurate)
While the New World is the center of Focus in the crossroads setting, it is not the only part of the world. There are many continents beyond it’s borders, and these each offer unique opportunities for players and DMs alike.
Africa
Africa is a massive continent across the sea from the new world, just south of europe. The land is enormous, with immense diversity throughout. In the north, the lands are mostly desert, containing one of the largest stretches of the hot desert in the world. On the western shore, there’s an enormous rainforest in the central region, teeming with life. Much of the area south of the desert is dominated by savannah, massive plains of rolling grasslands studded with the occasional tree. The weather here is largely dominated by the cycle of wet season and dry season. The summers are long, bakingly hot, and very dry, and the winters are cool, with heavy rainfall and a resurgence of life.
Politically, africa is divided into many, many groups, some small empires, others independent tribes throughout the landscape. At the moment, there are perhaps a dozen or so european settlements on the shorelines where they trade with the natives for gold, ivory, exotic goods, and perhaps most importantly, slaves. Trading in slaves is a growing business of the time, with european colonies in the new world demanding increasing numbers of slaves as native slavery decreases, in favor of those captured from Africa. The traders offer european goods to the africans for slaves traded to the new world for goods that trade well for money and goods back in europe, which are then traded to the africans for more slaves.
Asia
Asia is the largest continent in the world, and has staggering diversity in its geography, climate, and cultures. It ranges from arctic and subarctic climates in the north, arid lands in the the center and the west, humid areas scattered throughout, down to subtropical and tropical climates in the southern areas. Vast, cold steppes, sweltering jungles, enormous deserts, looming mountains and picturesque plains and fields can all be found within the continent of asia.
Politically, the landscape can be divided into a number of distinct regions. In the southwest is the middle east, a dry, desert-like land where the Ottoman empire, a strict monarchy, dominates much of the landscape, though they face increasing pressure as they begin to lose their grip on their lands. In the north is Russia, monarch empire that eagerly grows with each year, even expanding a very limited presence to the new world. In the center is China, under the rule of the Manchu people, the Qing dynasty. Their conquest drove the remnants of the Ming dynasty across the sea to take refuge in their new land of Fusang. In the south, India is trading hands between the declining Mughal Empire and the ascending Maratha Empire, the Mughal empire clinging desperately to what remains of its holdings. In the southeast, Islam is spreading through the various peoples of the land, and the Qing spread their influence into the region, claiming countries as vassal states. Off the eastern coast, one can find Japan, a mysterious land, shrouded from outside contact by an enormous, permanent wall of swirling wind that shatters any ship that dares to cross it.
Australia
The land of Australia is largely a mystery to the world beyond its shores. The dutch charted the coastline and declaring it ‘new holland’ a hundred years ago, but making no effort at colonization or inland mapping. Reports from sailors say that the land is a harsh place, full of fearsome giant monsters, venomous creatures, and strange cultural groups.
Europe
Europe is a diverse collection of nations, many wealthy and powerful, eager to spread their influence across the globe. In the northern reaches, the land can be subarctic, but the majority of the subcontinent is dominated by temperate forests, with broad-leafed trees, cold winters and warm summers. The Alps rise out of the continent, a ridge of snowcapped peaks that cross through many distinct countries. In the south, the Mediterranean’s warm waters and years of biological exchange around the sea have covered the southern shoreline of Europe with a distinct forest biome featuring olive trees.
Politically, europe is highly divided. No less than five major powers squabble over the subcontinent, including the English with their islands in the north, the Dutch on the northern coast of the mainland, the Spanish who share a southeastern peninsula with the Portuguese, and the French, who control a very large country spanning sea to sea just next to Spain. These nations have been warring with one another since they were founded, sometimes openly warring, other times merely competing with each other in a rather blood-thirsty fashion. Most of the powers are Monarchies, ruled by kings or queens, and heavily influenced by word of the Church, their faith nearly ubiquitous on the continent, though England remains outside their command, despite the pressure from the Church.
Brasilia
The southern continent, known as Brasilia, is a dark land, a land of mystery and unknowns. The caribbean shore is dominated by a massive rainforest, fed by the largest river system in the world, the Amazon. The western shore is a narrow strip of land against the sea, pinned between the mighty Andes mountains and the Pacific ocean. Down the eastern shore, the tremendous rainforests fall away, replaced with smaller forests, grassland, and eventually, arid, rocky steppes.
In 1530, the Portuguese landed at the mouth of the amazon and named the continent Brasilia, and began to colonize, enslaving massive chunks of the amazonian tribes in mines and plantations. Between the plagues the europeans brought and the horrific conditions the natives slaved under, nearly 90% of the natives used for slavery died, enough that mothers would cripple their children to spare them from their fate in the mines. The colony lasted for almost 50 years before the jungle threw them off. Survivors of the initial purge said it was as though the land itself had risen against them, with beasts, bugs, and plants turning against them in a nightmarish scenario that killed or drove out all the settlers. Sea serpents now nest along the deep water shelf, destroying any ship that comes too close to their lairs, making any attempts to retake Brasilia too dangerous and much, much too expensive. Those who get close to the shore without attracting the serpents report strange giant beasts patrolling the beaches.
The eastern shore is not as unapproachable, but the interior proves every bit as enigmatic and impenetrable. The first ship to arrive found a regiment of soldiers and a priest waiting for them at their landing place, as though they knew they were coming. The priest greeted them, in the sailor’s language, and told them, very politely, to leave and return to a set place and time if they wished to trade. When they did, they found a trading post had sprung up since their last pass, and found traders willing to offer them silver and gold statues and sculptures for european technology, but also a battalion of soldiers standing by. Since then each visitor to any spot on the eastern the shores other than that trading post, finds themselves greeted by the same battalion and priest. If they obey peacefully, they get bountiful trade. Nobody’s quite sure what happens to the ones who don’t agree, but it can be assumed it’s not pleasant, since they are never seen again.
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:58 PM
1: Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17391600&viewfull=1#post17391600)
2: System Changes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391607&viewfull=1#post17391607)
3: Player Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391616&viewfull=1#post17391616)
4: Bestiary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391623&viewfull=1#post17391623)
5: The Cahokian League (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391626&viewfull=1#post17391626)
6: Tuniitaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391631&viewfull=1#post17391631)
7: Aztatlan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391638&viewfull=1#post17391638)
8: Columbia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391643&viewfull=1#post17391643)
9: Fusang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391653&viewfull=1#post17391653)
10: The Spirit World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391660&viewfull=1#post17391660)
11: Beyond the New World (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-%28Under-Construction%29&p=17391666&viewfull=1#post17391666)
12: Canon Details
Canon Details
This post will be used as a holding place, to store details and decisions made in the thread until they can be made or integrated into the main writeups for each section. Once a decision is initially made, it goes into unconfirmed details. Unconfirmed ideas will be brought up during the finishing process for each area, then reviewed in comparison to all other material, then put in confirmed details for the area until they can be edited into the finished version of the write-up.
Unconfirmed Details
The Cahokian League
Tuniitaq
Aztatlan
Columbia
Fusang
The Spirit World
Beyond the New World
Confirmed Details
The Cahokian League
Tuniitaq
Aztatlan
Columbia
Fusang
The Spirit World
Beyond the New World
Admiral Squish
2014-04-29, 10:59 PM
Alright! And the new thread is officially open!
So, to start us off with, here's some stuff that I came up with after the reformatting, when I realized just how much work I had to do.
RACES:
Tonal: A human with a closer-than-normal tie to his animal spirit guide. The tonal spirit is based on the day of birth, and provides a small bonus based on the exact type of animal it represents, but is largely the same, statistically. The tonal is an invisible, intangible spirit, visible to the tonal and to anyone who can see the invisible things or perceive spirits. The tonal spirit is sentient, with mental ability scores equal to human side’s. The spirit can fly, scout, communicate over distances, similar to a familiar. Feats allow one to modify the tonal spirit or increase it’s utility.
Some feat ides:
Allow tonal to possess you, gaining some animalistic traits, including natural weapons and possibly ability bonuses based on level
Allow your tonal to radiate an aura of good luck/bad luck/other effects, affecting targets based on its location.
Allow your tonal to merge with an animal companion or familiar for periods of time, granting the companion the tonal’s mental abilities, speech capacity, and any other effect the tonal possesses.
Dragon-descended (Translated to Chinese?): Humans born with a greater share of the legendary dragon’s blood than most. These people have patches of scaly skin, unusually-colored eyes, and forked tongues. These individuals have an extra +2 to any ability (can’t double-up, though), +1 NA, Energy resist 5, maybe a breath weapon, and possibly a +2 to perception checks. Draconic feats allow one to enhance their dragon bloodline or apply draconic power to other areas, such as dragon spell casting.
Taqriaqsuit -> Shadow Folk, or Faceless: spirit-world denizens created by human beliefs about their own groups and about their neighbors. A shadowy, distorted version of the culture they’re based on, lacking details and much physical substance. The renaming is part of the process of de-specifying. They’re not just people who exist in the north, they’re wherever humans can be found, and go by many names, such as djinn.
Tuniit -> Giant, or some better name. The confusion between the culture and the giants needs to be somewhat less confusing.
Awwakkakule -> Little Folk: Broadening the range of them to include not just north american legends of little people, but European and worldwide ones, too. The little people have the cultures of the humans they live in the area of, but they have a few traits common to each ‘clan’ or ‘type’, including a few cultural traits, a magical ability, and some options of mystical ammo. The idea being, magic arrows are too dang common for there not to be some basis to them, so there’s a universal ability to allow them to charge projectiles, and a list of magic options that can be used, depending on which clan is involved. (for example, pixies could use sleep and forget arrows, but not poison or impact) There’s a bunch of research to be done, but it looks promising.
Quetzal -> (word for vision/ghost/dream)Coatl. Full redesign, possibly forsaking the human head. The feathered snake body remains, but refocus attention onto the snakes as a connection between life and death. The telekinetic limbs become ghostly limbs, powered by cha instead of int. A special ability allowing them to call forth beings from the spirit world and project them into the mortal world, the ghostly form or head emerging from the serpent’s mouth. That might be a feat, but the focus is going to be on these guys as bridges between the mortal and the spirit world.
CLASSES:
Hunter: Drop the tactical tracks idea and replace it with a modular list of tactics that allows you to pick and choose certain abilities to customize the hunter you have in mind. Skirmishing options, sneak attack options, beast master options, trap making options, driving/luring options, natural weapon options, and so on.
Brute: Drop the ‘feral’ and ‘earthen’ paths for a single ‘mystic’ path. The mystic path is intentionally generic enough to relate to spirits, divine power, arcane ability, or other, and the feats of strength allow you to branch into any one of them, in any combination. Want to play a paladin with some feral abilites? Sure! Want to play a native warrior who fuses arcane and spiritual power? Go for it!
Rough draft of the path:
1st: Mystic strike: Standard action, single attack, attack gains a +1 bonus to attack/damage, +¼ levels.
5th: Mystic ward: One-minute ritual in the morning to gain a +¼ level bonus to natural armor, which makes natural armor apply against magical and incorporeal touch attacks.
9th: Mystic strength: Rounds/day, you can enhance your strength, +2/8 levels.
13th: Mystic healing: 1/day/4 levels, heal self HP equal to (class level/4)d8+class level.
17th: Mystic senses: You can see through illusions and falsehood, as with always-active true seeing (?)
Steckie
2014-04-30, 06:01 AM
A new thread, time for some new idea's.
I worked on these for the last couple of days, but decided to wait on the new thread before posting them. Here they are:
Polynesian Fleet Matriarchs:
There are theories that say that Polynesians visited the coasts of south america. Why not incorporate this into the setting?
Apparently sweet potato, wich is native to south america, has been carbon dated to around 1000ad at a Polynesian island and it is theorised they picked it up at around 700ad.
Oh, and there are also theories that they visited Antartica, but i can't find anything about evidence for these theories.
Anyway, we have the Link Spirals in this setting. Meaning that the distance between the Polynesian islands isn't that much of a problem anymore. And while the islands can support only small populations, with a Link Spiral they could get some more genetic diversity. And trade.
So here's the idea: Polynesian traders appearing on the shores of Fusang, Aztlan and South America. The traders take a Link from various Polynesian islands to Easter Island. And from there take a Link to central or south Vespuccia. Or they use their boats.
The Polynesians were matrilineal and matrilocal. So why not make a little contrast with the name 'Mound Lords' and name them Fleet Matriarchs.
And if they maybe reached Antartica, we could have them trade penguin hides to the Vespuccians.
Oh, and they aren't meant to be a fully fledged out culture, i think it's best to just make them into mysterious traders that appear from the seas that show up with various luxury items and them sail away again.
We flesh out Easter Island since it's close to Vespuccia and because of the statues and keep it at that. No need to flesh out the other islands.
Merlinic Order
The Merlinic rulebook has already been roughly scetched, but i have an idea for the Merlinic Order: Science!
While church arcanists take a religious approach to magic, Links and the study of those things, the Merlinic wizards take a very scientific approach. They believe that magic and Links were created together with the world and that studying these things is like studying physics, it's a part of this world and shouldn't be studied together with theology.
The church ties most of their arcane studies to religion and the studies are done by church officials or people tied to the church.
Merlinic wizards found universities and discuss arcana out in the open, Church wizards discuss arcana at religious events or gatherings.
Isaac Newton's occult studies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies)
Check out the link, people say about Newton that he 'wasn't the first scientist, he was the last magician'
In Crossroads Isaac Newton was a Merlinic Wizard, and a powerfull one. He also did all of his work in physics and optics that made him famous in our world, but here he's more famous for his arcane work.
The first circumnavigation was done by Ferdinand Magellan, as most people here probably know. But in this setting there's a second way of going around the world: the Link Spirals.
So there should be somebody that did the first circumlinking. And if we go for a scientific Merlinic order, it should probably be one of them.
And i have a great candidate for this: John Dee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_dee).
Historically he was the occult advisor of Queen Elisabeth I. So like Newton he was very interested in the occult. And he was very interested in cartography and navigation. He was a friend of the famous cartographer Gerardus Mercator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerardus_Mercator)
Last but not least between 1550 and 1570 he was an advisor to England's voyages of discovery.
So he's great for the first circumlinking.
It took Magellan's expedition 3 years to sail around the world.
I think it's best to make John Dee's journey take longer. The Spirals are less reliable and predictable than a sea voyage (if you don't sink your boat that is).
So maybe he's en route for about 4-6 years, sometimes backtracking if he screws up his calculations or predictions on where a Link will lead to.
Other Merlinic wizards:
Edward Kelley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Kelley)
Thomas Norton the alchemist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Norton_(alchemist))
Thomas Charnock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Charnock)
Phoenix Alembic
The phoenix was proposed for one of the spiritbeasts but later replaced by the Embermice. And with good reason, the Embermice are made of awesome.
But the phoenix is still an interesting creature. And i think i have an idea for the phoenix.
Let's go back in history first: the phoenix was a magical creature living around ancient Greece. In later centuries they migrated to other coastal area's of the Mediterranean. They were frequently spotted in the Roman empire. They were often sought out for their advice.
Then the Romans started fidgetting with the Link system at the Pompeii Nexus. And the Phoenixes started giving them the advice to stop. They even showed up in Rome and flew into the Emperor's palace to talk to him. They were ignored.
Then the Pompeii Nexus got destroyed, the hole in the Link Spiral started sucking the magic out of Eurasia.
The phoenixes, who had all migrated to Italy because they knew something bad was going to come from fidgeting with the Spiral, flew to Pompeii. There they attempted to close the hole in the Spiral. All their attemts failed until in a last ditch effort they sacrificed themselves to ignite Vesuvius and cauterize the wound in the Spiral.
While normally Phoenixes just arise from the ashes of it's predecessor, this didn't happen now. The hole in the Spiral sucked the energy they use to arise from them before they were able to ignite Vesuvius.
So the ashes of all the phoenixes got thrown high up in the atmosphere by Vesuvius and from there they often flew around for years until eventually falling down on earth. Most in Europe, but those ashes now appear everywhere.
After several centuries the church started experimenting with these ashes. And after a while they discovered they could use Alchemist's Fire to reignite the ashes of a phoenix.
But the phoenixes that appeared from those ashes were small, weak, sickly and in constant pain. They were in their death throes but unable to die, stuck between reincarnating and dying.
Only by putting them in an airtight container they would stop burning and become ashes again.
But there was more that they discovered. Church inquisitors could use these phoenix ashes to replace burning a heretic to draw power. In fact, these ashes produced more power than a heretic. Some inquisitors were given a container with these ashes to take on a mission. They would poor a bottle of alchemist's fire on the ashes to ignite them, draw power from the sickly phoenix that appears from those ashes and once they're done they seal the container again and the ashes stop burning.
In Europe all phoenix ashes are safely under church control and are only given out if it's really needed.
But outside of Europe sometimes phoenix ashes are found as well. They're a lot less common, but it happens from time to time. And the church will do anything possible to obtain those ashes.
The church considers those ashes to be holy relics.
Mechanically this would be a powerfull item. Probably some nice stats that i can't think off because i'm absolutely terrible with mechanics.
I'd like to call the item a 'Phoenix Alembic' because i can't think of anything better. I'm obviously open to suggestions.
Great Library of Tlacopan
The Aztecs had writing. And a kind of paper. A huge amount of Aztec books was burned by catholic priests in the years following the conquest of Mesoamerica. To this day there are just a small amount of known Aztec codices.
In Crossroads we have a chance to do something more interesting with all this.
The Great Library of Tlacopan. The biggest library in the world, rivalled only by the Library of Alexandria. But you know, they burned that one down.
It's contents are mostly Mexica codices, but in the last 2 centuries more and more European and Chinese books and manuscripts find their way into the library. The librarians take almost anything that is written down in, they don't care about religion or politics, they just care about books.
They have a system that allows people to go through an index and that way find the book they're looking for. Or a book about the subject they're looking for.
They will also let anybody into the library, provided they personally give a small blood sacrifice. And a small payment for maintenance. Hiring a guide to help you find the books you need is more expensive though. And it's almost impossible to navigate the library without a guide.
This place has a massive amount of protective spells to make sure the books survive. Burning it down would be almost impossible. If you steal a book, that will make the librarians unleash their elite cadre of jaguar warriors to hunt you down and drag you back to the library.
There you will be sacrificed and your spirit will be forced into serving the library for one year until it will be sent on to the sun. This service consists of 'harvesting' information from dangerous places wich will then be written down by the librarians and added to the library.
It's a hard punishment, but people often try to steal books. There are codices here that are hundreds of years old and of immense value.
Books in the Great Library of Tlacopan:
List of Aztec codices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_codices)
List of Maya codices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices)
zabbarot
2014-04-30, 10:28 AM
Great Library of Tlacopan
The Aztecs had writing. And a kind of paper. A huge amount of Aztec books was burned by catholic priests in the years following the conquest of Mesoamerica. To this day there are just a small amount of known Aztec codices.
In Crossroads we have a chance to do something more interesting with all this.
The Great Library of Tlacopan. The biggest library in the world, rivalled only by the Library of Alexandria. But you know, they burned that one down.
It's contents are mostly Mexica codices, but in the last 2 centuries more and more European and Chinese books and manuscripts find their way into the library. The librarians take almost anything that is written down in, they don't care about religion or politics, they just care about books.
They have a system that allows people to go through an index and that way find the book they're looking for. Or a book about the subject they're looking for.
They will also let anybody into the library, provided they personally give a small blood sacrifice. And a small payment for maintenance. Hiring a guide to help you find the books you need is more expensive though. And it's almost impossible to navigate the library without a guide.
This place has a massive amount of protective spells to make sure the books survive. Burning it down would be almost impossible. If you steal a book, that will make the librarians unleash their elite cadre of jaguar warriors to hunt you down and drag you back to the library.
There you will be sacrificed and your spirit will be forced into serving the library for one year until it will be sent on to the sun. This service consists of 'harvesting' information from dangerous places wich will then be written down by the librarians and added to the library.
It's a hard punishment, but people often try to steal books. There are codices here that are hundreds of years old and of immense value.
Books in the Great Library of Tlacopan:
List of Aztec codices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_codices)
List of Maya codices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices)
At the time that the Spanish arrived Aztecs didn't have a complete writing system. The Maya did, but the Aztec writing system at the time was pretty much limited to dates and numbers. So most of those Aztec codices are effectively picture books with dates and names*. I'm sure in the time since they could have improved their writing system though, either because of exchanges with Spanish missionaries or Mayans, or on their own.
*People were often named for the day they were born.
Pokonic
2014-04-30, 12:13 PM
I wouldn't imagine that full on dragon-people would be a thing Fusang, if only because if they are not fond of Spirit Born than there would be little reason for them to said tolerate dragon-people in their midist. Spirit-Born who resemble dragon-people being born to the chinese settlers could be a thing, though, which could lead into in-universe debate on whether such children are blessings or curses from higher powers.
Also, given that Fusang is nation immigrants, I would think it would be time to solidify information on the other asian nation who has the greatest chance for being involved in the Americas; Japan. I remember some talk about a possible internal purge of magical creatures and the possibility of pro-magical expats landing around Washington state. Given that it is the biggest naval power around that side of the ocean at that time, getting the details down would be nice.
At the time that the Spanish arrived Aztecs didn't have a complete writing system. The Maya did, but the Aztec writing system at the time was pretty much limited to dates and numbers. So most of those Aztec codices are effectively picture books with dates and names*. I'm sure in the time since they could have improved their writing system though, either because of exchanges with Spanish missionaries or Mayans, or on their own.
*People were often named for the day they were born.
It's possible that the existence of Arcane magic and the Link Networks helped propagate/advance the development of writing.
zabbarot
2014-04-30, 01:59 PM
It's possible that the existence of Arcane magic and the Link Networks helped propagate/advance the development of writing.
Eh, I'd say it's debatable. I'm sure they would have writing by 1750 regardless of how they got it though so it won't matter too much. Though it is the difference between them adopting latin script or using their own logographs. There could even be some Chinese influence here to be honest.
Palanan
2014-04-30, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by zabbarot
At the time that the Spanish arrived Aztecs didn't have a complete writing system. The Maya did, but the Aztec writing system at the time was pretty much limited to dates and numbers.
I'm not an expert here, but I had the impression their logographs were a little more capable than that. And I agree, advancing the timeline a couple of hundred years would certainly allow for the development of a more sophisticated system.
Speaking of which, here's a question I'd asked near the end of the first thread, which was apparently overlooked: does Cahokia have its own script?
zabbarot
2014-04-30, 04:10 PM
I'm not an expert here, but I had the impression their logographs were a little more capable than that. And I agree, advancing the timeline a couple of hundred years would certainly allow for the development of a more sophisticated system.
Speaking of which, here's a question I'd asked near the end of the first thread, which was apparently overlooked: does Cahokia have its own script?
The Aztec logographs really weren't. They were used for calenders, names, and accounting. All known codices are pictorial. If there were continuous texts none have been found. We do have Mayan codices that have continuous text, full sentences and such. The Aztecs basically invented the comic book which is cool in it's own right if you ask me.
Cahokia to my knowledge did not have it's own script. Most of the North American native peoples had no writing systems until after European contact.
Admiral Squish
2014-04-30, 04:20 PM
Oh, yes, I almost forgot to ask! what do you guys think of the new first posts? Do you think I did a good job with the nation writeups? Anything you think should be added/removed? Is it easier to read now?
Polynesians
Now that is interesting! I never heard about the potato thing.
I like the idea, I will admit, but I'm just not certain how practical it is in the setting.
Firstly, if you're gonna go for a halfway point across the ocean, hawaii would be the natural choice more than Easter island, but that's mostly semantics.
Secondly, the pacific is freakin' huge. I don't know if just one spiral would cover it. And if it's more than one spiral, there's no way the link-route would sync up reliably enough that these traders could have a significant trading presence in the new world.
Thirdly, if the polynesians can just jaunt across the sea, why can't any of the other pacific naval powers? I mean, if the polynesians have exclusive access to some manner of very active/reliable link, why wouldn't the chinese have seized it by now?
Still, I think we can definitely do something with this.
What if there were a link path that did sync up across the spirals? Say, twice a year, six months apart, that lets people cross from one side of the pacific to the other, first in one direction, then the other. So, you prepare and gather your goods as the link time comes close, you go over, you spread out and trade all across the shoreline, and get back to the arrival point six months later to head home.
Also, idea that occurred to me that's too awesome not to mention: surf boards that can link. Enchanted boards that harness the power of the ocean. When used properly on a wave, the board charges up, and if you contact a link point while it's charged, pop, it takes you through.
There was also a vague thing in my head about the tunnel of a big enough wave being a moving link.
Merlinic Order
YES.
In a more rational tone, I definitely think this fits the setting. Perhaps they initially started as a 'mystic order' but as their studies got more and more traction, they gradually shifted from a more supernatural point of view to a more rational one. Magic is part of the world, after all, why wouldn't it work according to similar laws as, say, gravity?
If we are to make newton more famous as a magician than a scientist, we should definitely figure out some specific spells or arcane theorem to attribute to him.
As to circum-linking the world, I think such a task would require a great deal longer contact before it could be attempted. One would have to compare maps and charts from all across the world to determine which links would take you where, when they would open and how much power they would require to operate. You would have to convert measurements and distances through dozens of systems, compare star-charts from different cultures and different calender systems to ensure they open on the day you expect them to, and ensure clockwork precision of travel from one link to another at all corners of the globe.
Phoenix
Hmm... This is a pretty dang cool idea, but I don't really know. I mean... I could see such a thing for some very extreme scarred monks or inquisitors, perhaps, but I can't imagine that the majority of the church would be cool with intentionally torturing a good, innocent creature as a battery.
The first part sounds pretty awesome, though, with the phoenixes being the ones to cauterize the link-break, and with the ashes being spread all over the world. Maybe there are a few phoenixes who survived who are desperately seeking out the ashes of their brothers, trying to piece together the ashes of each distinct phoenix until they're together enough to be reborn again.
Library of Tlacopan
Also a very cool idea. I'm not certain, though. As mentioned, the aztec didn't really have that much in the way of writing at the time. And beyond that, I don't really think the empire would be all that interested in collecting books. It's almost a theocracy, there's not that much they need to know from the word of foreigners about how the world works, they probably feel they already know everything they need to about the world and the gods through the priests.
As to the developing aztec written language, I very much like this idea. the question is, how does it develop with these new influences? Do they adopt other symbols, do they steal system rules like 'one symbol one sound' or 'one symbol is a whole word', or maybe a mixture of the concepts? A full alphabet with word-symbols?
Oh, another thing that I can't seem to find answer to: does the aztec school system teach reading and writing? They had universal education, albeit divided up (a girl's school, a common boy's school and a noble boy's school). Would they just teach it to nobles? Or would everyone get it? Or maybe just women?
Dragon Descended
The distinction to be drawn is that the spirit-born are the products of humans mating with animal spirits, whereas the dragon descendants are randomly-occurring. Plus, they're not new, either, they're attached to the whole 'bloodline of the dragon' thing the han claim, and have been happening in han groups all through history.
you have a point, though. Perhaps it's a more subtle thing. Maybe... Ever seen American Dragon: Jake Long? Yes, yes, I know. But I kinda like the idea of being able to bring out and suppress draconic aspects. You look human, normally, though you may be a little more impressive or talented than other humans, but you can call out dragon parts/aspects to enhance those particular parts. Like, the feat Ear of the Dragon would give you a small, passive bonus to perception, but then you could activate it to gain blindsense out to a certain range and a larger bonus.
Japan
I breifly mentioned them in beyond the new world. The idea that was put forth was that the entire island was shrouded by a literal Kamikaze, a divine wind-wall, a permanent hurricane wall that splinters any ship that gets too close to the island.
That does somewhat limit its involvement in the setting, though, so I am certainly welcome to suggestions.
Steckie
2014-04-30, 04:49 PM
Polynesians
Now that is interesting! I never heard about the potato thing.
I like the idea, I will admit, but I'm just not certain how practical it is in the setting.
Firstly, if you're gonna go for a halfway point across the ocean, hawaii would be the natural choice more than Easter island, but that's mostly semantics.
Secondly, the pacific is freakin' huge. I don't know if just one spiral would cover it. And if it's more than one spiral, there's no way the link-route would sync up reliably enough that these traders could have a significant trading presence in the new world.
Thirdly, if the polynesians can just jaunt across the sea, why can't any of the other pacific naval powers? I mean, if the polynesians have exclusive access to some manner of very active/reliable link, why wouldn't the chinese have seized it by now?
1) Sure, Hawaii might sound better but i think Easter Island is a bit more mystical with those statues and all. And closer to Mainland Vespuccia.
2) Maybe Easter Island is the Nexus? Besides, the pacific is huge but it only has a very small amount of land. And earlier we stated that Links appear on land only, maybe in shallow water or an underwater cave but that's it. So while that would be a huge Spiral if you measure it, it would actually be small if you compare landmasses.
3) What other naval powers? Japan maybe. And China, but we already have Fusang to keep China out of Vespuccia.
Other than that you have Dutch colonies in Indonesia, British colonies in India and Spanish in the Phillipines? I think?
There's a few sultanates on Indonesia and several kingdoms in southeast Asia, both Muslim and Buddhist i think. No real contender as a naval power.
With a Link system to unify them a bit more the Polynesians could fill that gap.
Also, idea that occurred to me that's too awesome not to mention: surf boards that can link. Enchanted boards that harness the power of the ocean. When used properly on a wave, the board charges up, and if you contact a link point while it's charged, pop, it takes you through.
There was also a vague thing in my head about the tunnel of a big enough wave being a moving link.
Eh, i don't know. The hole in the Mediterranean Spiral sucked away 20% if all magic in a few hours. That's a lot of energy, is there enough energy in the water to do something like that?
Besides, if people can do that with a surfboard, what would happen if they were to apply that magic to a ship?
Merlinic Order
As to circum-linking the world, I think such a task would require a great deal longer contact before it could be attempted. One would have to compare maps and charts from all across the world to determine which links would take you where, when they would open and how much power they would require to operate. You would have to convert measurements and distances through dozens of systems, compare star-charts from different cultures and different calender systems to ensure they open on the day you expect them to, and ensure clockwork precision of travel from one link to another at all corners of the globe.
Good point.
That might even mean that nobody so far has succeeded in circum-linking the world. Wich is good, it fits with the exploration theme.
Phoenix
Hmm... This is a pretty dang cool idea, but I don't really know. I mean... I could see such a thing for some very extreme scarred monks or inquisitors, perhaps, but I can't imagine that the majority of the church would be cool with intentionally torturing a good, innocent creature as a battery.
Hey, i never claimed that this was good or that people approved of the practice :smallsmile:
That's why the church collects these ashes, they're holy relics and only in times of great need will they be used. With a great deal of prayer to ask for forgiveness afterwards.
The first part sounds pretty awesome, though, with the phoenixes being the ones to cauterize the link-break, and with the ashes being spread all over the world. Maybe there are a few phoenixes who survived who are desperately seeking out the ashes of their brothers, trying to piece together the ashes of each distinct phoenix until they're together enough to be reborn again.
I like it.
But i also like the way i described phoenixes: stuck between reincarnation and death. They're simultaneously dying and reincarnating. And they're unable to start both processes without outside help. Without alchemist's fire they are unable to ignite their ashes. And without being cut of from air they are unable to die again.
But i also like your version, so i'm a bit conflicted here.
Library of Tlacopan
Also a very cool idea. I'm not certain, though. As mentioned, the aztec didn't really have that much in the way of writing at the time. And beyond that, I don't really think the empire would be all that interested in collecting books. It's almost a theocracy, there's not that much they need to know from the word of foreigners about how the world works, they probably feel they already know everything they need to about the world and the gods through the priests.
It's not the empire collecting the books, it's the librarians themselves.
They probably started out as some sort of priests but evolved into gatherers of knowledge. They aren't supported or protected by the Triple Alliance, they just exist on their own. They make their own money and have their own (small) army to protect the books.
And while they're not part of the government i expect them to have gotten some form of political power by 1750.
Palanan
2014-04-30, 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by zabbarot
The Aztec logographs really weren't. They were used for calenders, names, and accounting. All known codices are pictorial.
I've seen them described as such, but point taken about the pictorial codices.
Originally Posted by zabbarot
Cahokia to my knowledge did not have it's own script. Most of the North American native peoples had no writing systems until after European contact.
Yes, I don't think any of the North American peoples (north of Mexico) had preColombian indigenous writing. I'm asking about Cahokia in the Crossroads setting, whether they've developed a script in their three hundred years of post-historical life.
Probably should've said "Cahokian League" just to clarify that. :smallsmile:
Admiral Squish
2014-04-30, 06:39 PM
Polynesians
1: This is true, but I don't know if the heads would have anything to do with links. Still, though, I'm not quite sold.
2: I still don't know about Easter Island as the nexus. It's kind of a tiny, mostly-barren rock that's not even centrally located in the ocean. Besides that, if Pompeii was a great link-site due to a connection of earth, fire, and water, Hawaii fits that perfectly.
3: I was referring to china, though now that I think about it... Probably could use it's own header. Aside from them, the British have a pretty good presence in India by now, I suspect they'd be able to take advantage of such a thing, were it a singular link.
I propose: Hawaii is the nexus of a mid-pacific spiral, which includes Easter Island. There's not a lot of links on said spiral, and they usually don't do all that much. There's another spiral over the southeast asia area. Twice a year, a chain of three links opens up that can be taken advantage of. One takes you from one the phillipines to Fiji. Next takes you from Fiji to Easter Island. Next, from Easter Island to... Isabella Island? that's still like 500 miles off-shore from South America, though. Anyways, they can span out there pretty well, South America, Central America, even due north to Cali. Come back in six months with what you traded for, and do the reverse. Could the polynesians can do ships that can do 500 miles of open ocean travel?
China's Navy
Okay, here's something we're gonna have to discuss. Historically, china destroyed a huge portion of its seagoing navy after the Zheng He expedition, including a chunk of the shipyards and a great deal of the plans and blueprints.
Now, obviously it didn't wipe out the whole navy or nobody would be in the new world, but we should probably address how much of a navy the Qing currently have. Did the Ming take everything as they left? Did the smash/burn/steal the stuff left behind? Did the Qing rebuild at all? Or did they just give up the whole 'ocean travel' fad after a while?
Link-Boards
You're probably right. Though, I would say, the mid-pacific spiral probably would have been spared the pompeii drain, it wasn't really connected to the old world network.
If the mid-pacific spiral doesn't have much in the way of links, though, maybe the shoreline waters would be charged with leftover link power?
I dunno, seems silly now. Maybe it's not about links at all, maybe the boards have carvings that make part of the wave follow the board? So, a skillful surfer could ride the board into the wave, charge it, then break off with his mini bonded wave and use it to push his board around the islands of Hawaii quickly, as long as he can keep his balance and ride it.
I may be a little fixated on hawaii.
Circum-linking
Probably for the best. Heck, that would make a pretty awesome campaign! A built-in ticking clock, fortune and glory awaiting if they can make it, and they get to go all through the continent. If they fall behind they end up stranded wherever they are with almost no way to get home.
Phoenixes
I mean, agents of the inquisition make great baddies, but I like to think most of the Church organization is still mostly good, albeit perhaps guilty of doing nothing to stop the more extreme agents.
Maybe we could combine them? Alchemist's fire will create a fused phoenix out of the parts represented by the ash, a twisted mockery of life that can't live and can't die as long as the alchemical fire burns. Pheonix fire, applied to a pile of phoenix ash will revive any phoenix that is wholly, or at least mostly, represented by the pile of ash, leaving the remainder that didn't belong to them. So, the phoenixes try to consolidate all the ash they possibly can, sweeping the thing with fire each time they merge some collections to see who makes it out, if any do. If they manage to collect all the ash in the world, the phoenixes would be reborn as a species. So, they're kinda not happy with the church for keeping it. The church keeps only a handful of these bottles, artifacts of great, but dark, power, under extremely tight control.
Library of Tlacopan
I just don't know. I like the idea, but I can't imagine them creating a full written language and gathering/writing enough books to create one of the great libraries of the world in just over 200 years.
Cahokian Syllabary
Oh, yes, we were working on something for Cahokia. The general idea was it started as a numerical notation for trade purposes, then developed into a simple pictogram thing that could be understood all through the league. Only nouns, though, this was originally just for trade purposes. Then, after European contact and a bit of exposure to the value of reading and writing, they developed a syllabary that could be used to write any native language. So, you have a universal pictogram and number system, then a syllabary where you'd be able to pronounce the word, but if you didn't know the language, it would be gibberish. Still, most tribes wouldn't have a very large reading population. Somebody was working on a rough sketch of the pictogram, if memory serves, but nothing really came of it.
For example, if you were to take little bo peep...
English
Pictographs
Picto+Syllabary
Little Bo-Peep has lost her sheep,
And doesn't know where to find them;
Leave them alone, And they'll come home,
Wagging their tails behind them
(Female Child)(name) ... .... (Posessive) (Sheep)
... ...... .... (Place) .. .... (Sheep);
..... (Sheep) .... ... (Sheep).. .... (Home)
....... (sheep) (Tail). ...... (Sheep)
(Female Child)Bo Peep has lost (Posessive) (Sheep)
And doesn't know (Place) to find (Sheep);
Leave (Sheep) alone, and (Sheep)'ll come (Home)
Wagging (Sheep) (Tail)s behind (Sheep)
Palanan
2014-04-30, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Could the polynesians [can do -?] ships that can do 500 miles of open ocean travel?
If you're asking if they could reliably navigate 500 miles of open ocean, then yes, easily. The Polynesians could do 500 miles on a lark.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
I just don't know. I like the idea, but I can't imagine them creating a full written language and gathering/writing enough books to create one of the great libraries of the world in just over 200 years.
Why ever not?
"Just" 200 years?
The Cherokee named Sequoyah, one of the greatest natural linguists in modern history, created a syllabary for the Cherokee language while he was completely illiterate. He recognized the power of the Roman alphabet and decided to create one for his own people. It took him twelve years, and it was so immediately successful that it's been in constant use by the Cherokee nation ever since.
And he was one man, starting from scratch, working alone. Twelve years.
In Korea, in 1443, King Sejong determined to create a new script for his country, and he set a group of scholars the task of phonological analysis of the Korean language. They developed new linguistic theories, studied the formation of Korean phonemes, and devised the script within three years; it was promulgated in 1446. The Hangul script is still used today.
As for the gathering of books and the creation of a great library--two hundred years. That's a lot of time to scour the world.
Admiral Squish
2014-04-30, 08:06 PM
Polynesians
My main concern was not navigation, but more supplies. I know they've traveled great distances, but I always thought it was via island-hopping, as their ships don't really seem large enough to carry preserved food and fresh water enough for extremely long-distance trips. Research seems to indicate they do fine, however, though I can't find out exactly how... I mean, I know one could supplement one's stores with fish and rainwater, but it seems like that would be too unreliable of a supply to depend solely on them. Plus, smaller ships like those would seems particularly vulnerable to the giant storms of the pacific, but that doesn't appear to be a problem, but again, I'm not having much luck in the how...
Library
It wouldn't be that long if the people, as a whole, were eagerly seeking out more books on their travels to bring home. But aztatlan has no navy, no really significant long-distance travel, they would only be able get books brought by the europeans or the fusangren, and they don't even trade with them directly in most cases. Plus, it's not the whole nation looking either, it's this one library, which is mostly a charity. I doubt they take enough of a fee to exert significant economic pressure to encourage the traders to bring boatloads o' books. Plus, the librarians would also likely spend a great deal of their time and resources just properly recording things with the new writing system. Myths, stories, histories, religious beliefs, and so on.
As to how long it takes to make a language, sure, it could be made in 5-10 years probably. But that's just writing it down. Depending on who they teach the reading and writing to in the schools, it would probably take another 10 years to get it into the heads of enough teachers to spread it all through the empire, then another 20-30 to raise a full generation of pupils who can read and write. From there the spread is geometric, but that's still a pretty good chunk of time.
Palanan
2014-04-30, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
My main concern was not navigation, but more supplies. I know they've traveled great distances, but I always thought it was via island-hopping, as their ships don't really seem large enough to carry preserved food and fresh water enough for extremely long-distance trips....
Well, 500 miles isn't that long-distance in this context. With steady, respectable winds that's a long weekend trip. Pack some yams, throw a sea turtle in the back, do a little fishing off the side.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
As to how long it takes to make a language....
Sequoyah published his Cherokee syllabary in 1821. Thousands of his people learned it almost immediately, and the first Cherokee-language newspaper was being printed by 1824. There was no need to wait a generation--adults learned it rapidly and willingly.
The same happened with the Hangul script when it was promulgated in 1446. King Sejong intended it to be easily understood by the common people, and it was; the saying went that a wise man could learn it in a single morning, and a fool in ten days.
Both of these scripts were consciously designed to fit the sounds of their respective languages, and they fit them like a glove. They were intended to be easy to learn and, especially in the case of Hangul, to be self-taught. There was no cumbersome, stratified universal education to get in the way--just motivation and diligence on the part of the adults who first learned these scripts.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
It wouldn't be that long if the people, as a whole, were eagerly seeking out more books on their travels to bring home.
You realize this is a great character concept right here? :smalltongue:
I could see these librarians involved in just this sort of thing--directly sponsoring a number of intelligent, resourceful travelers to roam, explore, and bring back all manner of books from the far corners of the world. Some of the younger librarians might do this themselves, sort of a Mesoamerican Indiana Jones approach.
Polynesians
My main concern was not navigation, but more supplies. I know they've traveled great distances, but I always thought it was via island-hopping, as their ships don't really seem large enough to carry preserved food and fresh water enough for extremely long-distance trips. Research seems to indicate they do fine, however, though I can't find out exactly how... I mean, I know one could supplement one's stores with fish and rainwater, but it seems like that would be too unreliable of a supply to depend solely on them. Plus, smaller ships like those would seems particularly vulnerable to the giant storms of the pacific, but that doesn't appear to be a problem, but again, I'm not having much luck in the how...
Library
It wouldn't be that long if the people, as a whole, were eagerly seeking out more books on their travels to bring home. But aztatlan has no navy, no really significant long-distance travel, they would only be able get books brought by the europeans or the fusangren, and they don't even trade with them directly in most cases. Plus, it's not the whole nation looking either, it's this one library, which is mostly a charity. I doubt they take enough of a fee to exert significant economic pressure to encourage the traders to bring boatloads o' books. Plus, the librarians would also likely spend a great deal of their time and resources just properly recording things with the new writing system. Myths, stories, histories, religious beliefs, and so on.
As to how long it takes to make a language, sure, it could be made in 5-10 years probably. But that's just writing it down. Depending on who they teach the reading and writing to in the schools, it would probably take another 10 years to get it into the heads of enough teachers to spread it all through the empire, then another 20-30 to raise a full generation of pupils who can read and write. From there the spread is geometric, but that's still a pretty good chunk of time.
Don't forget the Amicqui, if an Amicqui supported the creation of the Library it could become a major undertaking.
Admiral Squish
2014-04-30, 09:47 PM
Polynesians:
A long weekend, you say? Math time! Research says Europeans sailing ships usually did about 4-6.5 knots. 5 knots is a little shy of 6 MPH, so we'll use that as an average base. Now, take into account that Magellan's ships encountered Polynesian ships, which were noted to be easily faster and more maneuverable. so, let's say 8 MPH for an average with good wind. 8 MPH x 24 hours is 194 miles in a day, if you sail for 24 hours a day, which is unlikely since the navigator has to be awake for them to say on course, and navigators were rare enough that they could apparently hold communities hostage if there was a drought (by making them pay through the nose for evacuation or aid from other islands). Assume six hours for sleep, and let's say another two a day for hours of bad wind, no wind, or progress lost to uncooperative currents. That means a journey of 500 miles would take about four days. Seems that checks out!
But one should also account for that they would need to supply themselves with food and water as they went up and down the coasts, and anything they couldn't supply for the next six months would have to be bought out of what they get for their trade goods.
Still, overall this is definitely looking more and more plausible. Astral navigation and no reliance of charts would make them much better-suited for link usage in distance travel than most.
Library
Really, that fast? *whistle*
Okay, so they can definitely get the written language up and running. Probably properly widespread by... let's see. Chronologically, the language creation would probably have to start after they'd had a bit more peaceful contact with the europeans. Timeline says major trade with the Europeans only really began in 1600-1605. So, if we say they started on a language in about 1610, we could probably have it be widespread by 1620-25. That's 125 years to the current .
Still, though I think it may be a little much to say they would end up with one of the great libraries of the world in that time frame. It would certainly be a very large library. They could probably get ahold of a printing press, either from the fusangren or the europeans, and modify it a bit to work with their new language (which we should totally come up with some details for), then use it to start really mass-printing 'aztec bibles', a written version of the practices and beliefs already in place, approved by the priests, and educational textbooks for the schools already in place, along with a few other select books. from there, the librarians start recording everything they can and putting it in tomes in the library. Whatever history they can get from the historians, or better yet the amicqui, accounts of battle and warfare from soldiers, so on, so forth, and then they start looking for copies of books from other places, from the fusangren and the europeans, carefully translated by library priests (Who may or may not be editing selectively).
Also "It belongs in a library!" seems like a much lamer catch phrase than the original. But that does sound like a pretty awesome character.
There could also be some effort to record the knowledge of recently-created Amicqui Priests, as they get older and their gift of prophecy takes over, making them less and less lucid. Plus, countless texts recording an analyzing the prophecies of the eldest Amicqui Priests.
Palanan
2014-04-30, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
A long weekend, you say? Math time!
You're shortchanging the ships involved. A frigate making 10 knots can run off two hundred miles between one noon observation and the next. Now, 10 knots is a respectable speed, and it can't always be guaranteed, but it's far better than 5 knots. It depends on the particular kind of ship, and especially what era you're looking at.
If you're basing sailing speeds on, say, the ships in Columbus' first fleet, keep in mind he selected those ships for their shallow-water sailing qualities, rather than their speed.
Also keep in mind that ships on long voyages, such as Magellan's or the Manila treasure galleons, had to deal with tremendous fouling issues, which wouldn't be as much of a factor on proas or similar vessels. Much easier to haul out and clean off.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
...if you sail for 24 hours a day, which is unlikely....
Not sure where you're getting this. The Polynesians were just as adept navigating by the stars as by the sun--not to mention the feel of the waves beneath them. People do keep watch during the night, and it's not hard to set the tiller with Aldebaran to starboard.
Besides, you don't exactly drop anchor in the middle of the Pacific.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Astral navigation and no reliance of charts would make them much better-suited for link usage in distance travel than most.
Astral navigation is in the Planar Handbook. :smalltongue:
The Polynesians did use charts, just not paper ones. They developed complex cat's-cradle designs of string and shells which served as their maps, which they learned to weave from memory.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Really, that fast? *whistle*
In one of John McPhee's best books, Looking for A Ship, he describes a merchant-marine seaman who learned the Russian alphabet on a ferry ride, by studying a calendar in the passenger cabin. He got off the ferry in a Russian port city and was reading street signs in minutes.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-01, 01:47 AM
Polynesians
I found a site that compared distance traveled by ancient ships divided by the time it took them to do so, as reported in various texts from ancient greece and other such places. I may be off by a few knots, but I don't think it makes all that much difference in the overall picture, they can do it in less than a week. I suppose they could stop for food and water along the coast once they get inland, though that may make the trip take that much longer. Still, I suppose they can sail out for a few months, since they don't have to be back until six months later.
As for sailing 24 hours, it wasn't about navigating by sun/stars, it was about the navigator needing to sleep, since there's only the one. Hadn't thought about locking the rudder, but then, the last ship I was on had 2000 people aboard and a flight deck. Sail power is not exactly my area of expertise here.
Let's say little reliance on charts. If they can remake the chart from memory, they don't really need the chart that much.
Library
I definitely like the idea of recording new-made amicqui's memories and recording/analyzing prophecies from them.
Yes, yes, I get it, I was off on how long it takes to learn to read. Message received.
Also, we really should decide if the reading and writing would be taught in commoner schools or just to nobles. Also, girls?
EDIT: Waaaait a second. If it only takes a negligible amount of time to learn to read, how come it takes perfectly clever people months to do it in english? Kids are freakin info-sponges, how come reading's not just a week-long course, if it's as easy as you seem to indicate?
Aux-Ash
2014-05-01, 03:41 AM
Regarding polynesians
The best way to illustrate that the polynesians could cross 500 miles is both easter island (2,075 kilometres (1,289 mi) away from nearest polynesian settlement) and New Zeeland (which is 1500 km (900 miles) east of Australia and 1000 km (600 miles) south of nearest polynesian settlement). So yes, they definantely could cross vast distances.
However, both of those settlements were largely isolated from the rest of the polynesian sphere and as such it was not distances they crossed lightly. Which still calls into question if they could reach the mainland. It's another 2000 km from easter island and 3,200 thousand kilometers to California from Hawaii.
On the other hand... that is shorter than the distance between Hawaii and Tahiti, and that's including a stop at the Marquesas. So odds are that yes, they could.
As for Links... now things gets interesting. If there's a Link across oceania that means that by and large the cultures will keep trade contact. Though they're rather recent to the area (averaging on 1000 years presence, compared to the 2000+ the others will have in their regions) and thus will not have the Links mapped out, even in the furthest reaches will they have figured out that there are some at least. This however radically alters some of the islands... it means easter island is probably still settled (and maybe not as deforested). It means that the Maori probably has access to pigs (something they lost).
And what does this mean for Australia and interior New Guinea? The polynesians won't be there, their life is not suited to the climate, but it could mean that the New Guineans, Polynesians and Australians swaps technology. Which means there's no telling what that'll lead too (it'd still be the world's youngest civilisations so nothing too crazy).
But even so... the question we perhaps ought to ask ourselves first is: Do we want polynesian traders from Hawaii in Golden Gate and San Diego since a while back? If yes, then we simply decide they crossed the ocean with out without Links.
Otherwise the spaniards, the dutch, the haiyuanren or the britith found them rather recently.
Regarding the tlacopan library and writing
I think that by now there'll be writing in Aztatlan and as such no hinderance to a massive library in Tlacopan. I'd say that they picked it up somewhere in the Dawn era, and that their writing is a artificial construct using the latin alphabet as a inspiration much like the cherokee one is. Some signs look alike from European ones (but sound snothing alike) and others are basically evolutions of their old logographs.
Now... most of their population probably cannot read well, a few useful phrases at most. But most of the nobility, priests and higher army officials can. Reading is a skill like any other, and some learn quicker than others, it's just that getting lots of people to read is considerably more difficult.
Circumventing the globe through links
This sounds like an awesome adventure and just mapping the links sounds like a good plot hook. Let's not waste this by declaring it already happened. :smallwink: Besides... the era when people would do things like this for science is just starting.
Steckie
2014-05-01, 01:17 PM
Polynesians1: This is true, but I don't know if the heads would have anything to do with links. Still, though, I'm not quite sold.
Oh but i didn't mean the heads have anything to do with Links.
I actually meant for the heads to be something else, and that would make Easter Island a very interesting place to visit. Not sure what they could be though.
Some sort of constructs maybe? Or a vessel for the minds of great Polynesian Navigators that help guide their descendants over the seas?
2: I still don't know about Easter Island as the nexus. It's kind of a tiny, mostly-barren rock that's not even centrally located in the ocean. Besides that, if Pompeii was a great link-site due to a connection of earth, fire, and water, Hawaii fits that perfectly.
Easter Island is mostly barren because they chopped down all the trees and then erosion washed away a lot of fertile ground.
And the earth-fire-water thing isn't a reason for the links appearing right? Because i don't know any fire around the Cahokia site. I could be wrong though.
Link-Boards
Maybe it's not about links at all, maybe the boards have carvings that make part of the wave follow the board? So, a skillful surfer could ride the board into the wave, charge it, then break off with his mini bonded wave and use it to push his board around the islands of Hawaii quickly, as long as he can keep his balance and ride it.
I may be a little fixated on hawaii.
You mean like taming a wave? Getting a temorary wave as your 'animal companion'?
Phoenixes
I mean, agents of the inquisition make great baddies, but I like to think most of the Church organization is still mostly good, albeit perhaps guilty of doing nothing to stop the more extreme agents.
Maybe we could combine them? Alchemist's fire will create a fused phoenix out of the parts represented by the ash, a twisted mockery of life that can't live and can't die as long as the alchemical fire burns. Pheonix fire, applied to a pile of phoenix ash will revive any phoenix that is wholly, or at least mostly, represented by the pile of ash, leaving the remainder that didn't belong to them. So, the phoenixes try to consolidate all the ash they possibly can, sweeping the thing with fire each time they merge some collections to see who makes it out, if any do. If they manage to collect all the ash in the world, the phoenixes would be reborn as a species. So, they're kinda not happy with the church for keeping it. The church keeps only a handful of these bottles, artifacts of great, but dark, power, under extremely tight control.
I've been thinking about it today and you're probably right, it's probably a bit too evil to use an item like that.
I also like your idea of a few phoenixes surviving and trying to bring back their species.
If you do it like that i wouldn't have the church keep a handfull of the bottles against the Phoenixes' wishes. I'd have them be the ashes' guardians on behalf of the phoenixes. Anytime ash is being found both the phoenixes and the church swoop in and do whatever they can to reclaim it. The church is allowed the use of the Phoenix Alembics but only if they use them to recover ashes. And those ashes have been spread all over the world because Vesuvius blasted them very high and the wind spread them out. Maybe at the time the prevailing winds were eastwards and most ashes got dropped in France, England, Spain and from there on beyond the ocean to Vespuccia.
I imagine the church and the phoenixes work so well together because there's a strong parallel between the death and rebirth of a Phoenix and that of Christ.
You realize this is a great character concept right here? :smalltongue:
I could see these librarians involved in just this sort of thing--directly sponsoring a number of intelligent, resourceful travelers to roam, explore, and bring back all manner of books from the far corners of the world. Some of the younger librarians might do this themselves, sort of a Mesoamerican Indiana Jones approach.
I like that a lot. The catch phrase could be "That knowledge belongs to the sun!"
Meaning that they try to fill up those libraries because they think knowledge is just another form of power and those who die with a lot of knowledge in their heads will pass on that knowledge to the sun to help with the war.
And i also like BRC's idea to get the Amicqui in on this, they have knowledge that the Mexica would want to make sure they never lose.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-01, 04:03 PM
Races/Classes
Okay, before we get way too far down the line, I'd like to hear if anyone had any thoughts about the two new races proposed, the reworkings of some of the old races, and the ideas put forth for the reworkings of those two classes. Anyone?
Polynesians
I think that, while there might be some Polynesian technology and goods in new world along the west coast, I don't think the two groups would be able to have really significant influences on each other. If the link only goes out once a year and only goes back once a year, the people who go across are going to be a very rare breed, leaving their families and communities to trade in distant lands for half a year. Then you have to account for the scarcity of link-using spellcasters, the numbers that get lost to storms and other ocean hazards (remember, sea serpents and kraken are things here), and some probably just end up getting lost (they were great navigators, but nobody's perfect, and links can be unreliable.) Overall, I don't think more than a few dozen would go through each year for trading.
I think they would make in interesting flavor feature, but they shouldn't be a major presence, or even a huge influence. Perhaps the trade-link thing only was discovered relatively recently? Like, last 100-200 years? That would place their arrival in the new world after the chinese and the europeans, and their changes could be taken into account relatively easily from there.
Aztec Writing
I think the idea of them borrowing heavily from latin script seems unlikely. Even if they were trading peacefully with the europeans by then, I suspect they would probably be much too proud to actually use the same symbols as them. I imagine the priests would be determined to create their own symbols for the sounds. It's probably end up being somewhere between an alphabet and a syllabary, with most symbols being a single letter, but some representing unique sounds like tl, hui, cua, and such. Sorta like some european alphabets with the extra letters on the end. Or like german with umlauts.
I think that this is an opportunity to show a little more of the positives of the Aztec government system. If we make reading and writing taught in all the schools, then by the time of the setting it will be all but ubiquitous. The universal education is an important aspect of Aztec culture, and this is a chance to show it off. I think it would also be helpful to players, as having the Aztecs lead the world in literacy would sort of force them to take a closer look beyond their preconceived notions of them.
Circum-Linking
This is definitely true. Perhaps a plot hook is in order?
Easter Island
Okay, did some more research here.
The island is clearly inhabited in this timeline, by a relatively substantial population of natives, but in real timeline it was rapidly going downhill due to deforestation and the rats. The question is, do we still want it to be going downhill? Should they be able to save themselves? Or should their demise be accelerated to make the island more mysterious? Perhaps they cultivated their local link to evacuate the island as the ecosystem started to collapse, which inadvertently created the trade-link route.
To clarify, the earth-fire-water thing is not what causes nexuses, but it was cited as a reason why pompeii was such a powerful nexus.
Link-Board (Wave-Board?)
Not really, more like taking a portion of that wave's energy. The board collects it then uses it to generate a smaller wave behind itself that propels the board forward. The motion of the mini wave keeps the board charged and sustains the wave, but if you fall off it loses the energy and you're now stuck paddling.
Phoenixes
Hmm... But wait, the Church was the driving force behind the extermination of magical beasts and arcane spellcasting through Europe. Why would they actively help out a magical creature, even if said creatures were generally good? In fact, now that I think about it some more, they might not go so far as to use the alembics as described, but they might be hoarding the ash in lots of little jars, to keep the pheonixes from being able to come back, since they're so hard to actually kill once they're back. In the new world, the phoenixes are racing agents of the Church to try to find the ashes that landed in the new world, enlisting the help of some native groups to try to restore their people. Plot hook!
Also, another problem occurs to me. What about the oceans? An airborne particulate like ash would spread widely and settle relatively evenly. However, on land, the light particles might still be blown around, but as soon as they touched water they'd be absorbed by it and be unable to escape it. And since we don't have aquatic civilizations in this setting, they can't do any kind of large-scale ash-gathering on the ocean floor. Maybe we could say the ashes float, and are washing ashore in various places depending on currents.
Adventure Librarian
I do really like this idea. Not sure if I should make it as an NPC, though, or leave it to the player who calls dibs.
Palanan
2014-05-01, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Aztec Writing
I think the idea of them borrowing heavily from latin script seems unlikely. Even if they were trading peacefully with the europeans by then, I suspect they would probably be much too proud to actually use the same symbols as them. I imagine the priests would be determined to create their own symbols for the sounds. It's probably end up being somewhere between an alphabet and a syllabary....
This sounds just right to me.
Sequoyah based his script on the Latin letters because they were the only alphabet he had to work with--but also because he saw his people hemmed in and oppressed by the European colonists. The Cherokee were very much subordinate to the growing political and demographic power of the colonists.
The Aztecs, as I understand them in this setting, would be in a position of stable power and supreme self-confidence, and absolutely they'd want to develop their own "pure" writing, which they would likely claim was divinely inspired.
If the priests wanted to create their own syllabary, then I think Hangul is the perfect model to follow here--a very logical, scientific approach to designing symbols to represent the sounds of their language. Like Hangul, the priests could get it done in a couple of years, and they could use the resources of the empire to disseminate the result throughout their domains.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
I think that this is an opportunity to show a little more of the positives of the Aztec government system.
Don't underestimate the power of the Dark Side imperial edict.
:smalltongue:
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Adventure Librarian
I do really like this idea. Not sure if I should make it as an NPC, though, or leave it to the player who calls dibs.
Dibs! :smalltongue:
You could probably work up a mid-level NPC as an example to aspire to, sort of a seasoned Indiana Jones type, and let the player be Shia LaBeouf.
:smallbiggrin:
Considering that the ashes can be buried and broken down as well as the absorbtion in water, a good solution could be that phoenix ashes are drawn to each other and to other phoenixes overtime, and so if a phoenix is in an area for a long enough time, it will draw all the ashes in the area. That will take many centuries though, and there is no guarantee that the ashes will reform, since they may not be all of the same bird. The other reason the birds formed from the Alembic is sickly is that it is the forced reincarnation of the ashes of many phonixes which does not go well.
Steckie
2014-05-02, 02:14 AM
Races/Classes
Okay, before we get way too far down the line, I'd like to hear if anyone had any thoughts about the two new races proposed, the reworkings of some of the old races, and the ideas put forth for the reworkings of those two classes. Anyone?
Races:
Awwakkakule, perhaps base them on the Homo Floresiensis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis)? They are native to an Island in Indonesia and there are theories they went extinct only 12000 years ago. In Crossroads you could make so that they know magic and have a basic knowledge of the Link Spirals. That way they spread all over the world and are as varied and diverse as the cultures of Homo Sapiens. Mostly they prefer to remain hidden, their bigger cousins are a dangerous lot....
Tuniit, i agree both Tuniit races are a bit confusing.
Quetzal, are they playable or non-playable?
Classes:
No ideas for the rework of those two classes (i'm terrible with mechanics), but i do have one question: why is the bard class not available?
Polynesians
I think they would make in interesting flavor feature, but they shouldn't be a major presence, or even a huge influence. Perhaps the trade-link thing only was discovered relatively recently? Like, last 100-200 years? That would place their arrival in the new world after the chinese and the europeans, and their changes could be taken into account relatively easily from there.
This is what i had in mind when i posted the idea. Not a major presensce, but interesting mysterious traders that appear on the coasts of Fusang, Aztlan and New Spain (they still own Panama, right?)
It's something different from the Big Five and i feel like there should be more of these smaller cultures that aren't sucked up or being sucked up by the Big Five. They bring great flavor.
Easter Island
Okay, did some more research here.
The island is clearly inhabited in this timeline, by a relatively substantial population of natives, but in real timeline it was rapidly going downhill due to deforestation and the rats. The question is, do we still want it to be going downhill? Should they be able to save themselves? Or should their demise be accelerated to make the island more mysterious? Perhaps they cultivated their local link to evacuate the island as the ecosystem started to collapse, which inadvertently created the trade-link route.
They're kidnapping Cahokian druids and forcing them to help with the deforestation problem. And the rats. The Easter Islanders only have a few aquatic druids, and Cahokian druids are the best at keeping forests alive.
But their last kidnapping was 20 years ago and the five druids they kidnapped all died. Now they must either make the perilous journey across a vast continent to do the kidnapping themselves or hire an Aztlan raiding party at a great cost.
Instant plot hook for both sides, either to do the kidnapping or to bring home a kidnapped druid.
Link-Board
Sounds good, but is there a Hawaiian word for something like this?
Adventure Librarian
There is a movie trilogy called "The Librarian" (1, 2 and 3) that is kinda something like this. Only the library is more into gathering ancient artifacts of great power. But i suppose "The Museum Curator" just doesn't sound sexy :smallsmile:
Aztec Writing
Does all of this mean that players with an Aztlan character get Literacy as a bonus at first level?
Oh, and here's a link to Amatl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amatl), the paper the aztecs used.
Phoenix
Well, if Phoenixes are magical beasts of earth and fire (wich is why they were able to blow up Vesuvius) that could explain why the ashes didn't fall in the water: they hate water so badly that even in death they refuse to fall into it.
That would probably translate into a weakness to water based spells.
Palanan
2014-05-02, 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by Steckie
Does all of this mean that players with an Aztlan character get Literacy as a bonus at first level?
I'm not too familiar with the Crossroads language system, but if there's universal state education then this would follow. It's certainly a way to demonstrate how the Aztec system can provide valuable benefits on a personal scale.
Originally Posted by Steckie
[Homo floresiensis] are native to an Island in Indonesia and there are theories they went extinct only 12000 years ago.
As someone who has read the original papers, and attended some of the first presentations at anthro conferences, I can guarantee you that this "species" is still thoroughly in contention. Neat to think about, but the science is very much unresolved. I would stay away from basing a race too closely on this particular hominid.
About the awwakkule more generally: on the face of it, there's nothing wrong with having a halfling-like race in the Crossroads setting...except you then become one step closer to just about every other campaign setting. Dragonlance has the kender, Forgotten Realms has the hin, Athas has their little psycho barbarians, etc. etc. To me, it detracts from the intriguing alternate-history feel. But since Admiral Squish has already designed them in detail, I assume they're already integrated into the setting?
Also, in the third post of this thread, they're described as "a race of small fey," but in their detailed writeup (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?271138-Awwakkule-Little-People-PF-race-Vespuccia) they're given the humanoid type and explicitly described as not being spirits. Not sure if the mention of fey is meant to be an update on their type, or just an informal indication of how they're viewed by most human cultures.
Originally Posted by Steckie
But i suppose "The Museum Curator" just doesn't sound sexy....
You would not believe the assistant curator I met when I was working at the National Museum in Paris. One of the three most gorgeous women I saw in all of Europe.
.
Steckie
2014-05-02, 03:46 PM
As someone who has read the original papers, and attended some of the first presentations at anthro conferences, I can guarantee you that this "species" is still thoroughly in contention. Neat to think about, but the science is very much unresolved. I would stay away from basing a race too closely on this particular hominid.
About the awwakkule more generally: on the face of it, there's nothing wrong with having a halfling-like race in the Crossroads setting...except you then become one step closer to just about every other campaign setting. Dragonlance has the kender, Forgotten Realms has the hin, Athas has their little psycho barbarians, etc. etc. To me, it detracts from the intriguing alternate-history feel. But since Admiral Squish has already designed them in detail, I assume they're already integrated into the setting?
I agree with you completely, the small races are overused in a lot of campaign settings. And usually they're all very similar. I would prefer not using one of those small races as well.
But like you said, they were already designed so i assumed they were a given. That was the reason i proposed the Homo Floresiensis, at least they appeared in history and that makes them a bit more likely.
I didn't know there was still that much debate about them, so i'm going to take your word on this.
You would not believe the assistant curator I met when I was working at the National Museum in Paris. One of the three most gorgeous women I saw in all of Europe.
Sure she might be gorgeous, but if you saw a movie poster with "The Assistant Curator 2", would you step into the movie theatre? :smallsmile:
Admiral Squish
2014-05-02, 06:52 PM
Aztec Writing
I could definitely see something like that. Strictly representational characters, so there's no silent letters or weird spellings, which would make the adoption process that much faster and easier.
...Now I kinda want to know what it would look like. Aztec art has a very distinctive feeling, characters designed in that style would be really cool!
Education
I was thinking that different schools of education could be culture feats, but that was before we started the writing discussion. Maybe it could just be that characters with the Native (Mexica) culture can read and write the language for free. Maybe both.
Librarian
Alright, a mid-level librarian NPC. Got it.
Though, I don't think anybody's gonna wanna play the idea if they have to be compared to Shia LeBeouf. :smalltongue:
Phoenixes
Hmm. I think we do need a mechanic to draw the ashes out of wherever they've settled, but I don't think the phoenixes can afford to wait hundreds of years in one area for ashes to reveal themselves. Maybe some sort of ash-magnet?
Maybe... a large enough fire, such as a brush fire, a torched city, or similar, will draw any phoenix ashes in the area to the surface to be gathered. There's significant evidence the natives regularly used fires to control the environment, from clearing underbrush in forested areas to maintaining grasslands as grasslands. The phoenixes learn about this and start hopping from fire to fire to collect the ashes of their brethren.
Also, phoenix ash should be recognizable as not dirt. Maybe it sparkles, like ruby dust, or something.
And one more thing, how do the phoenixes gather it with beaks and talons? Maybe they need humans to do it? Or maybe they can pick it up some other way, like collecting it on their tails.
Race Remakes
I'll talk about little people below.
Both tuniit races?
Quetzal are playable now, and they will remain playable after the remake. I'm basing the idea off the Vision Serpent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Serpent) idea.
Bard
I did not actually think of bard.
You know, I've been toying with the idea of a bard remake with skill-based magic songs instead of spells since before I started the crossroads projects...
For now, I'll put bard on the official classes list, and cross the remake bridge later.
Polynesians
Ahh, well, we're on the same page, then! Marvelous.
But yes, there are a few non-empire-allied groups, the only problem with them is where/how do they fit into the setting info? Do they go under beyond the new world?
Easter Island
Ooh, now that's fun.
I'm imagining an island full of both regular rats and dire rats, who are starting to turn on the villages as the forests shrink away. Really adds a level of desperation to the plotline.
Though, why kidnap, rather than hire? The traders are probably makin' pretty good bank, and kidnapping a druid is an extremely challenging prospect, what with all the magic. What's to stop one from calling up a storm in anger and riding a dolphin to shore when they wake up on a boat in the middle of the pacific?
Link Boards
Hmm... Let's see...
Nalu 'Aihue. Essentially it means wave-thief. You would also indicated the kind of board, Alani for the regular kind of traditional board, or Ono for the supersized ones for royalty.
Also, apparently ancient boards were like 17-24 feet long, and had no fin. The things I learn with this project.
Little People
Huh, they're humanoid. Weird. I could have sworn I was gonna make them fey. Well, I suppose that's just one more thing that's easy enough to fix.
But yeah, the idea was to make them fey and incorporate the nearly-ubiquitous ideas of little people that can be found all through the world. Menehune, Awwakkule, Mannegishi, Pukwudgies, Brownies, Pixies, Knockers, Leprechauns, and so on and so forth.
As to little people making the setting more similar to other ones, I just don't know. I mean, these myths are very widespread, and can be found in almost every culture of the world, it would seem strange to NOT do anything with them. But then, if the people don't really like the idea of them, there's not much point in making them, either.
Perhaps they could be made, but not as one of the main races. We could just put an 'as characters' sections on the bottom of various little people monsters?
Admiral Squish
2014-05-03, 06:52 PM
Okay, here's some more stuff that's occurred to me.
Penetration:
This is the rough draft of the weapon quality I mentioned before:
A penetration weapon more easily overcomes the armor and hide of its targets. When attacking an enemy with a penetration weapon, it can ignore certain kinds of armor and certain values of natural armor, effectively reducing the target's armor class against the attack. There are three types of penetration, which indicate different amounts of armor and hide they can pierce. The types are Light, Medium, and Heavy. The table below indicates what kinds of protection each type can ignore.
Light
Medium
Heavy
Armor
Light Armor
Light or Medium Armor
Light, Medium, or Heavy Armor
Shields
None
Light (including bucklers)
Light or Heavy (but not towers)
Natural Armor
+3 or lower
+6 or lower
+9 or lower
Notes: Weapons made from adamantine or obsidian gain penetration (light). If they already possess the penetration quality, it's value increases by one step, from light to medium to heavy.
Adamantine armor it treated as one level heavier for the purposes of penetration. Heavy adamantine armor cannot be ignored by penetration weapons.
Obsidian/Hardened Obsidian
Obsidian weapons are a thing, and one of the monsters in the call to brew thread reminded me that we really need to come up with the stats for this material. so, here's what I have.
Obsidian is a black, highly reflective volcanic glass that can be easily flaked into some of the sharpest edges in the world. Natural obsidian is somewhat fragile, but with a bit of magic, it can be hardened until it's just as durable as any other material. Obsidian can't be used to make bludgeoning weapons or armor, but it creates dangerous edges and points on slashing or piercing weapons.
Obsidian weapons have their critical range increased by one, and gain the penetration (light) property. If they already have the penetration quality, the value increases by one, from light to medium or from medium to heavy. Unfortunately, obsidian is rather brittle, and weapons made from it gain the fragile quality, unless made of hardened obsidian.
Type
Weapon Value
Obsidian
+500 VP?
Hardened Obsidian
+5000 VP?
Sky Iron
Since I'm already here...
Sky iron is the word used to describe the iron-like material that makes up meteorites. The unique composition of the material, tempered by the fiery descent to earth and its long existence in space (though the scientific has yet to realize the true origins of them), makes it highly unusual and uniquely magical. Some even claim it to be alive. Sky iron's exact appearance varies by the meteor it emerged from, usually a dark gray, light gray, or bronze-like color. Sky iron can be used to make any item that would normally be crafted from iron or steel.
Sky iron is inherently magical, and is treated as such for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Sky iron items never rust, tarnish, or dull, and will even heal themselves at a rate of 1 HP/day if damaged or broken, though a broken item must have all the pieces present to heal.
Sky iron is indeed alive, though it requires magical energy to make itself able to communicate freely. A sky iron item starts with intelligence, wisdom and charisma scores of 10, gaining a +1 bonus to all three scores equal to its effective enhancement bonus. It can communicate emphatically with its wielder, see and hear out to 30 feet, and cast a single 0-level spell determined by the DM at-will. Sky iron items can have any alignment, though all items made from the same meteorite have the same alignment initially. Sky iron items have special abilities and powers determined by the DM. Each time the weapon is enchanted, they can gain new abilities and qualities up to the total new value of the enchantments. For example, if a sky iron sword were empowered with a +1 enhancement bonus, the DM could add new abilities with a total cost of up to 2000. If later upgraded to a +2, the DM could add new abilities as long as the total value of the abilities is less than 8000. The intelligence, wisdom, and charisma bonuses gained from these enchantments do not count against the value of new abilities.
Making an item from sky iron increases its value by 2000 VP.
Aux-Ash
2014-05-04, 06:23 AM
Okay, here's some more stuff that's occurred to me.
Penetration:
This is the rough draft of the weapon quality I mentioned before:
A penetration weapon more easily overcomes the armor and hide of its targets. When attacking an enemy with a penetration weapon, it can ignore certain kinds of armor and certain values of natural armor, effectively reducing the target's armor class against the attack. There are three types of penetration, which indicate different amounts of armor and hide they can pierce. The types are Light, Medium, and Heavy. The table below indicates what kinds of protection each type can ignore.
Light
Medium
Heavy
Armor
Light Armor
Light or Medium Armor
Light, Medium, or Heavy Armor
Shields
None
Light (including bucklers)
Light or Heavy (but not towers)
Natural Armor
+3 or lower
+6 or lower
+9 or lower
Notes: Weapons made from adamantine or obsidian gain penetration (light). If they already possess the penetration quality, it's value increases by one step, from light to medium to heavy.
Adamantine armor it treated as one level heavier for the purposes of penetration. Heavy adamantine armor cannot be ignored by penetration weapons.
Right... Why are we doing this at all?
In 1750, the age of armour is all but over. The industry of producing them is vanishing throughout Europe and China, the last few battles involving heavy armour on a large scale ended some 100 years prior to our setting's timeperiod. It was primarily a battlefield thing that by and large never even reached the new world save for a brief period under the spanish conquistadors.
Even -if- the locals picked up the idea and started making them, they're now facing columbians and fusangese that have weapons that more or less ignore their armour.
Even ignoring the lore explanation, every single party is going to have pistols and muskets...the weakest of which probably fall on the "medium"-level in your table. Sure, there'll be bows and such as well... but do we really need to build an armour penetration system? It's not as if armour is going to be very useful most of the time.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-04, 01:56 PM
Right... Why are we doing this at all?
In 1750, the age of armour is all but over. The industry of producing them is vanishing throughout Europe and China, the last few battles involving heavy armour on a large scale ended some 100 years prior to our setting's timeperiod. It was primarily a battlefield thing that by and large never even reached the new world save for a brief period under the spanish conquistadors.
Even -if- the locals picked up the idea and started making them, they're now facing columbians and fusangese that have weapons that more or less ignore their armour.
Even ignoring the lore explanation, every single party is going to have pistols and muskets...the weakest of which probably fall on the "medium"-level in your table. Sure, there'll be bows and such as well... but do we really need to build an armour penetration system? It's not as if armour is going to be very useful most of the time.
Yes, you have a point. There will be very little or even no armor in warfare, in battles amongst humans. But you're forgetting a major aspect of the setting. Humans aren't the only threats out there. In our world, mankind largely tamed the wilderness and there are few animals that can really threaten a human with a gun. But in this world, we haven't tamed it, and there are monsters out there. Ferocious beasts with teeth and claws, and savage giants in the wilds that wield axes, clubs, and bows. Yes, armor would be in a rapid decline, but it still has its uses, and the group that would probably use the most armor is adventurers. Even if they were to shun heavier suits, a fine chain shirt or a breastplate might well save one's life against the fangs of a dragon or a warrior's blade.
And it's not as though the natives would have to learn the techniques of the invaders to make armor. It wasn't often depicted, but it did exist in north america when the settlers arrived. Leather, cotton, wood, bone, woven reeds, and sometimes even copper were all used in armor to protect warriors in battle and during hunts. Hide or wooden shields, too.
EDIT: Oh, and another point: This isn't going to be on everything, it's a weapon quality like trip. Crossbows, atlatls, guns, and some weapons made of special materials will have it, but it's not going to be a ubiquitous by a long shot. If people don't like it, they don't really have to use it.
Palanan
2014-05-04, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
But yeah, the idea was to make them fey and incorporate the nearly-ubiquitous ideas of little people that can be found all through the world. Menehune, Awwakkule, Mannegishi, Pukwudgies, Brownies, Pixies, Knockers, Leprechauns, and so on and so forth.
If you want to keep the "little people" aspect, I would recommend kicking the size down a notch (from Small to Tiny) and changing the subtype to fey. Most of the names I recognize in your list are considered fey in 3.5 anyhow, and it would both preserve the feel of what you had in mind while avoiding the inevitable overlap and comparison with standard halflings.
You might also give them a couple 0-level SLAs, general to the race rather than tied to specific clans, just to enhance that sense of their being slightly otherworldly.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Sky iron is the word used to describe the iron-like material that makes up meteorites. The unique composition of the material, tempered by the fiery descent to earth and its long existence in space (though the scientific has yet to realize the true origins of them), makes it highly unusual and uniquely magical.
Hm. In this setting, does all meteoric iron fall into this category?
I like the idea of meteoric iron being worked into powerful weapons--there's a great precedent in The Silmarillion--but I'm not as keen on the notion that all sky iron is intelligent and alive, with mental stats and etc. Among other things, this implies there are intelligent asteroids orbiting out there, which is a little funky for the feel of this setting--and it also suggests there would potentially be a lot of these items floating around, given how many meteors come down over time.
This is very much personal taste, but my own preference would be for an "ordinary" sky-iron with superior properties--in particular for hardness, rust resistance, overcoming DR, etc.--plus a very small fraction of these bolides in possession of further qualities, perhaps as a result of where they landed, or even of having been used in some ancient ritual, etc. etc. As a player, I would want the option to choose between "simple" sky-iron, with its purely metallurgical benefits, and the much more complex version involving self-awareness and additional powers.
(The latter, I would think, would be quite a bit more expensive, probably more than you've listed in your example.)
Originally Posted by Aux-Ash
Right... Why are we doing this at all? ...In 1750, the age of armour is all but over.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Yes, armor would be in a rapid decline, but it still has its uses, and the group that would probably use the most armor is adventurers. Even if they were to shun heavier suits, a fine chain shirt or a breastplate might well save one's life against the fangs of a dragon or a warrior's blade.
I have to say I agree with both points here, but especially with the idea that armor still has its uses. A certain scene with Frodo in Moria illustrates the point rather well. :smalltongue:
Also, I may have missed it before, but how does armor enchantment interact with muskets, weapon penetration and the like? I'd think something with a deflection bonus would have some effect on musket balls, at least.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Leather, cotton, wood, bone, woven reeds, and sometimes even copper were all used in armor to protect warriors in battle and during hunts. Hide or wooden shields, too.
Do you have a citation for the copper armor? The others I've read about, but I've never heard of copper being used that way, at least not in Eastern North America.
.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-04, 06:35 PM
Little People
Hmm... You know, I was wondering how I was going to get the little people of the legends up to small size. A lot of them were only like a foot, foot and a half tall in the legends. Tiny actually would fit better. Though, I will admit I am concerned about their viability in that case. Two sizes down means most weapons are going to have very, very low base damage (1d3 for an arrow), and I believe tiny characters can't reach beyond their squares. Still, there are ways around that, and it certainly would set them apart from other small-sized races.
I think they would certainly have to have some magical abilities if they are to be viable characters. I believe I can make it work.
Sky Iron
Mostly, I based the precedent on Willamette meteorite, which was believed by the Clackamas tribe to be Tomanowos, one of the sky people descended from heaven in the form of a mass of iron. The idea the iron was alive descended from that.
As to the price point, if you add up the costs of the basic abilities and the 0-level at-will spell, it's only supposed to be 1500 more expensive than the base price of the item. I didn't want to make players pay too much in advance for abilities that can only be unlocked by further expenses. I suppose the potential for growth is worth a bit more, though. 3000?
Now, regarding some being regular and some being intelligent. I don't know, honestly. for the player a sky iron weapon's no more complex than a regular one, the DM is the item's voice, determines what abilities get unlocked when, and so on. The player doesn't even have to spend any unusual amounts of money, the intelligent item just gets new abilities worth parallel to what they spend on it anyways. There are ego issues, but that's just a roll every once in a while.
I suppose if other people also support the idea, I could divide it into the two types of material, one 'simple', the other intelligent.
Armor
Enhanced armor doesn't change the armor's type, no. However, other armor bonuses like deflection, dodge, or magical effect like inertial armor or such would still apply. Also, there are the itemless bonuses which would still work.
As to the copper armor, seems I was mistaken. I found an image of armor covered in little metal disks and thought copper, but it turns out it was one made with little Chinese coins. There was this one mysterious skeleton found with a big brass disk on its chest, but it disappeared in a fire way back when.
Steckie
2014-05-05, 03:18 PM
Phoenixes
Hmm. I think we do need a mechanic to draw the ashes out of wherever they've settled, but I don't think the phoenixes can afford to wait hundreds of years in one area for ashes to reveal themselves. Maybe some sort of ash-magnet?
Maybe... a large enough fire, such as a brush fire, a torched city, or similar, will draw any phoenix ashes in the area to the surface to be gathered. There's significant evidence the natives regularly used fires to control the environment, from clearing underbrush in forested areas to maintaining grasslands as grasslands. The phoenixes learn about this and start hopping from fire to fire to collect the ashes of their brethren.
Also, phoenix ash should be recognizable as not dirt. Maybe it sparkles, like ruby dust, or something.
And one more thing, how do the phoenixes gather it with beaks and talons? Maybe they need humans to do it? Or maybe they can pick it up some other way, like collecting it on their tails.
Large fires to collect the ashes: i love it! But there should be a Phoenix present at the fire to draw out the ashes and collect it, ashes collected by others are usually stumbled upon by accident.
And yes, it should be pretty recognizable.
The phoenixes could collect it with their tails, that sounds good.
Race Remakes
Both tuniit races?
From what i read in the previous thread i came under the impression that there was a race of 'true' Giants living on the north pole and that the Tuniit were their descendants when they interbred with humans. Or are they the same race, just born from a different race of parents? That would be very weird.
It's also possbile i'm not remembering this correctly.
But yes, there are a few non-empire-allied groups, the only problem with them is where/how do they fit into the setting info? Do they go under beyond the new world?
Iroquis Confederacy. Anasazi cliff cities. Maya city states. Russian Alaska. Those are some i can think off and there are probably some others we will stumble across while work on various area's.
Easter Island
Though, why kidnap, rather than hire? The traders are probably makin' pretty good bank, and kidnapping a druid is an extremely challenging prospect, what with all the magic. What's to stop one from calling up a storm in anger and riding a dolphin to shore when they wake up on a boat in the middle of the pacific?
Cahokia is the center of the world. Why would a druid willingly leave the greatest city or the surrounding plains to go live on some Island in the middle of the ocean?
Besides, Cahokia needs those druids to make Ironwood and to maintain their own forests. Protecting their Ironwood monopoly is important.
Little people:
I support Palanan's suggestion, making them tiny would be a nice solution. I like that a lot better than including small races.
It fits a lot better with the legends about little people as well.
Merlinic Wizards:
So, i had some time this weekend and decided to do some research into Merlin and the history of England to see if i could find something to build a basis for the merlinic wizards. And then i was struck with some inspiration and i started typing. And well..... i typed a lot.
But don't worry, my wife is pregnant and due in about three weeks so after that i wont have that much time anymore to build these huge walls of text.
Anyway, here's what i have so far:
Dissecting a rat to predict the future is almost as stupid as disecting your own poop for the same reason
The Merlinic Order was founded somewhere in the 6th century by a Welshman named Myrddin Wyllt, or as he is more commonly known outside of Wales: Merlin.
The origin of the Order is mostly shrouded in myths, but most scholars agree that he was born somewhere around the year 540. He had a twin sister named Gwendydd who would become a powerfull arcanist of her own.
Not much is known of his early life, he was most likely a hedge wizard travelling the countryside, telling fortunes and casting minor spells. His sister was more like a true wizard, studying the arcane arts in Roman tradition.
Following the Roman tradition meant that she had to either serve a local noble or become one herself by marrying another noble. Most Roman patricians were either arcanists themselves or descendants of arcanists. In Roman tradition being a wizard meant serving the local patrician and if you were strong enough rise through the ranks to serve a patrician higher up the social ladder.
Gwendydd chose the second option and married Gwenddoleu ap Ceidio, king of Arfderydd (an area around Hadrian's Wall). She was able to get Myrddin as the new court bard, he wasn't a great singer but his skill with magic, languages and writing was enough to make him very usefull.
Myrddin followed his new liege around and with him he was present at the Battle of Arfderydd at Arthuret. There his brother-in-law was killed and Myrddin went mad from the carnage he saw. He fled into the forest and lived among the animals for a while until his sister, who had married the new lord of Arfderydd, dragged him back and almost forced him to start working again.
Weirdly enough, Myrddin seemed to have found some sort of inspiration while hiding in the forest. He tested the at the time dominant way of divination by cutting open animals and found most of the ways divination was performed to be just plain wrong. In fact, he was able to disprove all animal-based divination he tested. This disproving of current theories was the first true innovation in divination magic that had happened in a couple of centuries. He is also credited with inventing the scrying spell, the Stone Tell spell and the Clairaudience/clairvoyance spell. Unfortunatly for Myrddin many of his innovations were not accepted during his lifetime and he only received the respect he earned after his death.
After Gwendydd dragged him back to her husband's castle, Myrddin started to study wizardry and the Roman tradition. But while he was very good at the magic once he put his mind to it, he very quickly became dissatisfied with the Roman traditions of having to serve a lord or become a lord. He felt like he could do more if he were to directly serve the populace and not the lord. He felt that most of the magic he could perform in one day was wasted in doing spells for political purposes.
And the lords would use this magic for themselves and not to serve the people they vowed to serve.
After his sister died in childbirth along with the child Myrddin became the court arcanist. This made him even more dissatisfied with the Roman arcane tradition. Every time he wanted to do something for the populace, he was forced to waste his magic casting spells for the king.
Eventually he had enough. He gathered his pupils and left Arfderydd to go back to Wales. Along the way they stopped several times to help people along the way. And then they stopped some more. And then they took a detour because they heard people needed help. Eventually they ended up in Stonehenge. And Cornwall. And then at Yorkshire. His group of pupils kept growing and he did eventually make it back to Wales only to leave again two months later.
He kept on travelling through the British isles and performing what he considered to be his duty. He had the gift of magic and it was his duty to distribute that gift among those who need it.
There were some other rules to it, but this would later become the basis for the 'Merlinic Oath'.
He reportedly died the 'Threefold Death' when a local lord and his men was angered by his refusal to perform magic for him. He chased down Myrddin until he fell from a cliff where he was impaled on a stake left by fishermen, and died with his head below water.
One must study and understand the laws of nature and physics so that one can learn how to break those laws with magic.
After the death of Myrddin his pupils spread out and started gathering pupils of their own. And those pupils would again spread out and gather new pupils. That cycle went on for a long time.
At the time of the Viking conquest of large parts of the British Isles the Merlinic wizards numbered somewhere between a third and half of the total arcanists present on the Isles.
When the Vikings first heard about the Merlinic Wizards, their Skalds absolutely loved them. Very quickly a number of poems about the wizards started to become enormously popular in Scandinavia.
Following that the Merlinic Oath started to be used all over Scandinavia. The Vikings even spread the oath into Normandy, Spain, Sicily and Russia. Even in the Byzantine Empire the oath was known, although the Byzantines usually mocked the oath.
At the time of the Danelaw about two thirds of the arcanists in the Isles were Merlinic wizards, a number that would only increase when William the Conquerer took the English throne.
But the success of the Merlinic Wizards didn't last. When John, King of England made England into a tributary state of the Papal States, one of the concessions he had to make was a ban on Merlinic Wizards working for the government. And a full support for any Papal wizard to do his work.
This led to a serious decline in Merlinic Wizards, a lot of them abandoned their oath and started working for the church.
The Black Death partly changed that again. When the plague appeared in southern Italy and France in 1347, the Papal States called every able Wizard to help them battle the plague. Most of the high level wizards were put on boats and sailed to Mediterranean Europe where they were put to work battling the plague. By the time the plague reached England in early 1349, most of the Papal wizards were abroad battling the plague. The populace cried out to the king to save them from the plague and he was forced to call on the Merlinic Wizards.
Their efforts were most likely equally unsuccessfull as the efforts of the Church, but this increased their popularity immensely.
That popularity only kept on growing, even after the Black Death ended and the Papal wizards returned to England. They were seen as cowards who wouldn't help their country while the Merlinic wizards were seen as true patriots. This lead to renewed conflicts with the Pope in the following decades.
When Henry VIII became king of England and renounced the Pope he reached out to the Merlinic Wizards to fill the gap left by the Papal wizards he expelled.
After his death, his daughter Mary tried to return the country to Catholicism and burned several Merlinic Wizards as Protestants. Her reign was a difficult one and people celebrated in the streets of London the day she died.
Elizabeth I, who took the throne, re-established the Church of England with the full support of most Merlinic Wizards. She found the balance between puritans and catholics and declared the Merlinic Wizards and all wizardry as a secular matter. This made the order independant from any religious interference and give them a great deal of freedom.
While the Merlinic Wizards were firmly cemented in British politics, outside of the Isles the started to lose influence. Only in Scandinavia they were able to keep part of their power, but continental Europe south of the Baltic coast was mostly free of Merlinic Wizards.
The Merlinic Wizard John Dee, advisor to Queen Elizabeth, was the first arcanist to describe the higher amount of magic in the New World when he was sent on an expedition to act as a diviner.
He is the one that established the tradition of using the scientific method to research arcane matters.
This way of looking at the arcane only became more and more important in the Merlinic order.
But mundane sciences were not looked down upon in England and in 1660 the Royal Society was founded to provide advice to the Crown in scientific matters while the Merlinic Order remained the chief advisor in arcane matters. This would very often lead to tensions between the Order and the Society. And those tensions lead to confusing and conflicting advice to the crown.
Sir Isaac Newton put an end to this. He was a powerfull Merlinic Wizard who dabbled a bit in mathematics, optics and physics. His work in the mundane sciences lead to him becoming a member of the Royal Society. In 1703 he became president of the Royal Society and he started working towards uniting the Merlinic Order and the Royal Society into one single body that united both. Scientists and arcanists needed to work as equals, they needed to use the same methods. The Royal Society of London for Improving Natural and Arcane Knowledge was born.
This didn't mean that all Merlinic Wizards joined the Royal Society, most of them remained free to help the populace as they saw fit. But those that joined were expected to study both the arcane and the mundane sciences.
Newtons view on the Merlinic Oath also leaned closer to the Roman tradition. He (and the Royal Society with him) see their vow to help the populace as a vow to help the government help the populace. The unaffiliated Merlinic Wizards see their vow as a vow to directly help the populace. This is a common dispute between Merlinic Wizards, but most agree that using both these explanations is what makes the Merlinic Wizards so successfull.
The Merlinic Oath changed a lot through the ages. Things were added and removed. Things were forgotten and remembered again. But this is the oath as it is now:
- A Wizard may not harm a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm unless harming one human will make it so that other humans will not be harmed.
- A wizard attempt to help non-wizards in any way he can unless helping a non-wizard will result in harming another non-wizard.
- A wizard robot protect his own life because he is a valuable asset to the people. But a wizard must be willing to give up his life to prevent non-wizards from coming to harm.
- A wizard must protect humanity as a whole over everything else. In some cases it is needed to harm one non-wizard to save many others.
- A Wizard will study the arcane as best as he can so that he can better help non-wizards
Sidenote: for my Merlinic Oath i took inspiration in the three laws of robotics from Asimov's stories.
Palanan
2014-05-05, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by Steckie
A wizard robot protect his own life because he is a valuable asset to the people. But a wizard must be willing to give up his life to prevent non-wizards from coming to harm.
The influence from Asimov certainly shines through.
:smallbiggrin:
Admiral Squish
2014-05-05, 05:14 PM
Phoenixes
I don't know, if the pheonix has to be present to draw out the ashes, how would anybody but pheonixes get them?
Okay, I think I got an idea. It's not fire specifically, it's heat. The phoenix ashes react to heat. If they're warmed by something, such as a fire, they will be attracted to the source of the heat in a magnetic fashion. Now, under normal circumstances, phoenix ashes just look like slightly glittery ash. But when heat is applied, they change color. When it's hot enough to start to pull, it's yellow, which is warm to the touch. As the heat increases they go through yellow, orange, red, blue, and finally pure white. White is when it's hot enough to start a rebirth reaction. Anything after red is just too hot to handle unless you've got some sort of heat resistance. When the fire has passed an area, the phoenix comes in, looks for unusually colored spots, then runs a wing or their tail over it. The phoenix's heat is enough to draw the ash into the feathers, but not enough to start the rebirth. For that, they have to put the ash in a pile and blast it with fire until it does white. It's possible for non-phoenix fire to start a rebirth reaction, but it's difficult to create quite that much heat by mundane means.
Tuniit
Ahh, I understand the point of confusion. The Tuniit are the larger-than-human descendants of the Inupasugjuk. They're not both referred to as Tuniit.
The confusion I was referencing was that the Tuniit is regarded as the name of the culture and the large people.
Hmm... You know, there are plenty of other giants to be found in native american myth. Maybe this race could do with a bit of a generalization too. The Tuniit would still be the largest group of them, but it would allow for players south of canada to play big guys, too.
Non-Empire Groups
Oh, I'm fully aware of the groups in question. I'm asking more along the lines of where would they go in the formatting. If they're not allied with any of the larger empires, where do they fit into the posts? The Iroquois League, for example. They're not part of the cahokian league, they're not part of columbia, and they're not part of tuniitaq. Where do I put them? Do I mention them as an aside in one of the empires, do I put them in the 'beyond the new world' post, even though they're part of it, do I add another post to the front page?
Druid-napping
I just don't think kidnapping a druid of that power level is very practical, though. You'd probably have to keep him in an AMF to keep him out of the fight, then the moment you let him use his magic to help you, you're opening yourself to him going ape on you. A druid who is strong enough to help reforest the island has a wide variety of ways to ruin your day. Control weather to summon a storm on the island. Summon Nature's Ally to call in armies of dire bears or similar. He can probably find his way back home over the sea with know direction and find the path. He could hitch a ride on an sea creature, or even wild shape into something that can swim those distances.
The easter island traders might not be able to hire a really high-level one, but I bet they could borrow a 5th-level druid from one of the lesser mound families for a pretty good price. All they really need is plant growth, after all, and maybe something to kill rats.
Little People
Alright, that's some more support for tiny little people. Honestly, it does make sense, I keep finding references to the little people that are pretty clearly in the tiny size range. Knee-high, 12 inches, 18 inches, 14 inches, two spans... So on and so forth.
I'm getting a bit frustrated trying to find the original form of a lot of these guys. I mean, in original form fairies were tall, winged, angel-like creatures, and dwarfs were never described as short until after christianity arrived.
Oh, that brings up another question: Should elves, dwarves, and gnomes (the original mythological forms, not the modern takes) be options? It may invite some confusion...
And one more question: Should I rename the types of little people, or use original names? I mean, translated, 'yunwi tsunsdi' just means 'little people'. Renaming might allow me to combine a couple of subtypes of similar nature together into bigger groups.
One last thing: I'm thinking about giving pixies a VERY limited form of flight. The basic idea is they can only get about ten feet off the ground, which would be in reach of medium creatures below them, and they can glide as they fall if the ground opens up beneath them or they go over a cliff or something. I don't really know if I should make an exception to the no flying rule, though...
Merlin's Tale
I definitely like this story. I haven't checked any of the details, but it looks pretty solid. Very cool.
Merlinic Oath
Not so sure on this, though. I think I was looking more for something like the hippocratic oath than the three laws of robotics. What you have there sounds very strict and specific, the hippocratic oath is a little more fluid, something that would likely be very important in the magical arts.
Palanan
2014-05-05, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Merlinic Oath
Not so sure on this, though. I think I was looking more for something like the hippocratic oath than the three laws of robotics. What you have there sounds very strict and specific, the hippocratic oath is a little more fluid, something that would likely be very important in the magical arts.
I agree with this.
The Three Laws were designed as a safeguard for industrial products that operated according to binary logic. The Three Laws (which became the Four Laws) were intended for practical safety, but also to provide the customers of U.S. Robotics with a necessary sense of security, a sense of trust that every situation had been covered and the robots were perfectly safe.
This was certainly not the case in practice, and much of the intellectual and moral challenge of the robot novels is in how the robots themselves work through the constraints and implications of the Three Laws, and eventually develop the Fourth (or Zeroth) Law on their own.
But I agree that these really feel out of place when adapted as a professional oath for humans, whose conflicts and motivations are far beyond those of most positronic brains. This is especially the case when applied to magic--it doesn't really fit, and as written they're a clear takeoff on Asimov, which would sharply contrast with the mood and feel of Crossroads overall.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Oh, that brings up another question: Should elves, dwarves, and gnomes (the original mythological forms, not the modern takes) be options?
Meh. I don't really see the need.
What makes this setting so interesting to me is the detailed take on alternative-history cultures. There will be enough interesting human options to keep most players happy for quite a while--and adding any form of elf/dwarf/gnome would only detract from the setting's unique feel. All the vividly imagined human cultures make for a wild, spicy gumbo, but too many standard fantasy races would spoil the soup.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
And one more question: Should I rename the types of little people, or use original names? I mean, translated, 'yunwi tsunsdi' just means 'little people'. Renaming might allow me to combine a couple of subtypes of similar nature together into bigger groups.
I'd say keep as many of the original names as possible, to preserve an authentic flavor, but feel free to combine where necessary. If certain wee folk from certain legends have unique traits or abilities, I'd say retain those, and combine others when they're not so distinct. After all, it only makes sense that different human cultures might have a variety of names for a widespread kind of little people who are essentially the same across a region or a continent.
I do not think that Elves and Dwarves should be used in this setting as PCs, since they can be either quite gamebreaking, or they cannot really progress far due to limitations. They work better as creatures that have been driven underground and not easily found except by powerful PCs, and even then, go with caution.
I say no elves, dwarves, Orcs, ect.
This is a Magical Alt History setting.
I don't think Druid-Napping is practical, same with Druid-hiring unless the Easter Islanders have somthing very valuable.
I find it more likely that Easter Islander druids are trying to reforest their island on their own, going to great, perhaps even desperate lengths to gather the power necessary to power a ritual. Easter Islanders could be traveling the World, seeking way to boost their power. Maybe they're trying to decipher the ritual that the Scarred Monks use to draw power from burning spellcasters and magic items, or the secrets of Mexica Blood Magic, maybe they're trying to figure out how the Cahokians were able to forge an alliance with the spirit of the Great River.
Stealing a powerful spellcaster, especially a Cahokian one, is probably beyond the Islanders. But they could try to uncover the secrets the Cahokians used to keep their ecosystem going.
Steckie
2014-05-06, 01:25 PM
Phoenixes
Okay, I think I got an idea. It's not fire specifically, it's heat. The phoenix ashes react to heat. If they're warmed by something, such as a fire, they will be attracted to the source of the heat in a magnetic fashion. Now, under normal circumstances, phoenix ashes just look like slightly glittery ash. But when heat is applied, they change color. When it's hot enough to start to pull, it's yellow, which is warm to the touch. As the heat increases they go through yellow, orange, red, blue, and finally pure white. White is when it's hot enough to start a rebirth reaction. Anything after red is just too hot to handle unless you've got some sort of heat resistance. When the fire has passed an area, the phoenix comes in, looks for unusually colored spots, then runs a wing or their tail over it. The phoenix's heat is enough to draw the ash into the feathers, but not enough to start the rebirth. For that, they have to put the ash in a pile and blast it with fire until it does white. It's possible for non-phoenix fire to start a rebirth reaction, but it's difficult to create quite that much heat by mundane means.
Sounds good to me.
So if the prevailing winds at the time of the Vesuvius eruption were eastward, then a lot of Phoenix ash will have spread to Vespuccia. Meaning that there will most likely have been a Phoenix migration eastward after the discovery of the New World. If there's a phoenix population in Vespuccia there are some questions to answer:
1) How many phoenixes are we talking about? Most of them got killed and their ashes swept away on the wind. There should probably be a limit on how many phoenixes there are now. What i had in mind is that about 4 of them survived Vesuvius. They were able to revive a few of their kin, but not much. Let's assume that things go really slow and they are able to revive about 1 phoenix every century. That would give us 21 living phoenixes.
Does that sound good?
2) Where do the phoenixes live in Vespuccia? Rocky mountains? Death Valley? Yellowstone?
3) Thunderbirds, how do they react to Phoenixes?
4) Do they have humans or other creatures to help them?
Non-Empire Groups
I'd add another post. That shows people who read the front page clearly that they're not part of one of the Big Five.
Elves/Dwarves/Orcs/....
I vote against using these races as well. That would take away the uniqueness of the setting.
Druid-napping
Alright, you've all made good points against druid-napping.
And i like BRC's take on it. Easter Island spies leaving their trusted Island to step onto unknown land in search of the means to save their home.
Merlinic Oath
Well i wrote the oath as a bit of an afterthought. And you're right, they're probably too strict and too similar to what Asimov wrote. And that might indeed contrast the mood of this setting too much.
I just hope you all like Merlin's biography and the history of merlinic wizards. Just remember that nothing is set in stone yet, i can still change a lot of stuff.
If you want the phoenix ashes to be captured by other parties, how about phoenixes molting 3 times before reincarnation, and the feathers can be used to create heat resistance and allows one to easily detect and gather ashes.
TheWombatOfDoom
2014-05-07, 08:18 AM
The only elves I can think of that might be applicable to the setting are the faery folk of celtic legends, with changlings and such, not the tolkien elves, and their orc counterparts. And weren't dwarves a form of elemental creature once, like sylphs and trolls and salamanders?
I'd be more inclined to include things pertaining to the classical elements than to be influenced by popular fantasies.
The Sidhe and other Celtic and Germanic myths were used as inspiration for Tolkien myths, and whoever wants to sort out the mess resulting from those stories are in for a swift descent into madness. I believe that dwarves were somewhat elemental in that they reproduced by carving a statue and using magic runes, not by biological means.
As for how Thunderbirds view Phoenixes, they don't really like them, since I feel that they differ from each other in that Thunderbird is lightning versus fire, but that they are tolerant of their presence, since it's kinda hard to fight something that explodes in flame if you kill it, then comes back to life
Admiral Squish
2014-05-07, 05:13 PM
Merlinic Oath
I suppose what we should do is figure out exactly what we want to see in the oath, rather than saying what we don't like about this version. Once we have a list of things to include, we can write the proper oath from there.
It's definitely got to make casters use their magical abilities for the good of the people.
There should be a bit about respecting fellow arcanists and possibly something about sharing knowledge and spells?
Little People
I feel I should reiterate:
I'm NOT talking about Tolkien races. I'm referring the the original forms of the myths, for dwarfs, elves, and gnomes. I have no idea how orcs got brought up. They would be options under the little people race, not full races of their own. I'll drop the refrences, though. I was having a hell of a time sorting a concrete vision of them out of the mess of wikipedia, anyways. And gnomes were elemental in origin, not dwarves. They were first described by Paracelsus in a book on alchemy.
Anyways, I've been working on the little people quite a bit and I've sort of settled on a compromise. About 10 different types of people, each with a couple examples from different cultures. For example, maker folk are little people who are exceptional craftsmen and builders. Menehune, leprechauns, and yunwi tsundi are the listed examples for them. They get mending and identify as SLAs, they get bonuses to appraise checks, craft and profession checks to make or build something, and a special ability that lets them complete any project they're working on in a day by working 24 hours straight, but they're exhausted for 24 hours afterward.
Phoenixes
1) I think 20-24 would be a good number. Theoretically, there would be an acceleration through the years as they gather more and more ash together, increasing the likelihood that any singular phoenix will be represented wholly by the pile.
2)Hmm. I think the small number of them would mean there wouldn't really be any one area where they're common, but there would have to be some place where they could stockpile the ashes. Since there are so few of them, there would likely seek out some place where they could enlist the help of some other human or magical guardians, and it would have to be somewhere beyond the reach of the church.
3) I think thunderbirds would react to phoenixes the same way they would react to any other large avian. Keep in mind, thunderbirds are of animal intelligence, they don't really have agendas beyond their instinctual drives.
4) That probably depends largely on the players in question and their first impressions. I mean, any tribe would likely be angry if they first encountered a phoenix as it lit a farm on fire, or it scared off game in a the middle of a hunt. But they would likely be more friendly if it came bearing a gift of magic feathers and spoke the language already.
Non-Empire Groups
Okay, let's see who's on the list. The Haida, The Great Basin, the Iroquois, The Russians... The Anasazi were gonna be disappeared, so they're not in it. I don't know if other mesoamerican states get put into here, considering the aztatlan region described in the first post is made up of all those little nations. Where We Do Not Hunt, maybe?
Druid-Napping
Alright, that seems to settle it.
Sir Augusta
2014-05-07, 10:00 PM
Alright, long-time lurker, but I thought I might have something to add about Phoenixes (Phoenicies? Phoeni?)
As someone earlier suggested, it would make sense for the Phoenixes to be allied with the church, given the strong historical symbolism. Just because the church hunted most magical creatures doesn't mean it went after all of them. And this would tie in with the Phoenixes' ash quest; the church would be guarding the ash for the Phoenixes, as they need somewhere safe to store them.
Also, it would make sense if the Phoenixes were allied with the Church that has tight control over arcane magic, given that runaway arcane magic literally killed/ prevented rebirth of the majority of their race.
Just my two cents, anyways.
As an aside, perhaps deep within the Rome Archives lie documents detailing what exactly happened at the Vesuvius Incident.
Steckie
2014-05-08, 01:50 PM
Merlinic Oath
I suppose what we should do is figure out exactly what we want to see in the oath, rather than saying what we don't like about this version. Once we have a list of things to include, we can write the proper oath from there.
It's definitely got to make casters use their magical abilities for the good of the people.
There should be a bit about respecting fellow arcanists and possibly something about sharing knowledge and spells?
Well it kind of depends, do you like the biography of Merlin and the history of the wizards i typed out? There's stuff in there i'd like to use, but i don't know if people agree with what i typed out.
A few thoughts about what could be in it:
- charming/mind control/ mind reading is forbidden (this one will probably get broken a lot)
- helping people with magic comes before political spellcasting.
- an arcanist will take an apprentice as soon as he's able.
- neutrality and something akin to doctor-patient confidentiallity for arcanists
- breaking the oath will result in bad stuff (if people find out at least), but probably not death since any arcanist is valuable.
Non-Empire Groups
Okay, let's see who's on the list. The Haida, The Great Basin, the Iroquois, The Russians... The Anasazi were gonna be disappeared, so they're not in it. I don't know if other mesoamerican states get put into here, considering the aztatlan region described in the first post is made up of all those little nations. Where We Do Not Hunt, maybe?
What's in the Great Basin?
WWDNH fits more with Tuniitaq i think. The Mammutcha are listed under them i think?
Other than those, i don't have much. Only the Mayan city states.
And i was hoping we could maybe reconsider the Anasazi?
Here's why: They're a whole people that mysteriously disappeared, supposedly through some sort of powerfull magic or great knowledge of Links (i think?).
Every setting out there has the ancient civilization that either mysteriously disappeared. Or the one that was vastly more powerfull than anybody in the present but somethow managed to get destroyed and people are now looting their tombs. Oh, and the tombs have been left mysteriously untouched and unlooted for centuries.
It's been used a lot and i was hoping we could avoid it here.
If you let them live they could be a great non-empire group.
Think about it, they're smack in the middle between three big players of the Big Five (Fusang, Aztlan, Cahokia). All three of them would LOVE to annex those cliff cities and the surrounding area, but the cities are amazing fortresses. And if one of the three tried an invasion the others would quickly intervene. Great potential for conflict.
The Grand Canyon is there, we could have them build an amazing city there. Have players help the Anasazi who are trying to build the greatest capitol a nation can ever have. In a cliff in the Grand Canyon.
The cliff cities can be a great supply point for expeditions into the Rocky Mountains.
What you have now is just another dungeon like there are thousands in other settings. Only this one is in the side of a cliff.
What you could have is a vibrant civilization wedged between three great nations that is making more of the amazing buildings they had in history.
Edit: A small question.
Percussion caps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percussion_cap) weren't invented yet. This means that firing a gun in wet weather can range from tricky to impossible.
Will this affect gun use in the setting? Will players be unable to use a gun while it's raining? Will a fog cloud spell prevent somebody from shooting a gun (provided they see you in all that fog....)?
Is this of interest to use as a dungeon? (https://sites.google.com/site/ancientegyptiansinamerica/ancient-egyptians-grand-canyon)
The idea behind this would be that Cleopatra and Mark Antony's son fled with followers to the Americas. My understanding of the other research into this, (I only used the above link since it was a quick link not a good one) is that current ideas is that it is feasible to have happened, but is not proven.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-08, 07:47 PM
Phoenixes:
Firstly, hi! Welcome to posting in the thread, we're glad to have you!
I mean, I can see the parallels that might encourage the church to be somewhat more accepting of the phoenixes' continued existence, but they blamed arcane magic and magical creatures for the creation of the Black Plague, the biggest biological disaster in european history (well, that depends if you count the diseases they brought over to the new world as part of european history). Even if the phoenixes weren't being actively hunted or interfered with, they would likely not be actively cooperating, either.
I do like the idea of there being an actual report of what really happened in at Vesuvius somewhere in the archives, though. It's possible church officials might be sympathetic to the phoenixes' plight, but unable to make an exception to the policy for fear of opening the door to more and more exceptions.
Merlinic Oath:
I do definitely like the biography you posted, and I believe I said as much when it first came out. I haven't had time to run down names or similar to make it work properly.
- I definitely like this provision. I think it might be ignored in some cases, but I think this would definitely have to be a binding principle under most circumstances.
- I like this one too.
- As soon as able? Seems rushed. I think being a wizard would be kind of like being a martial artist. A long apprenticeship period of ability training and mastery of the basics, until you reach 'black belt'. In a wizard's case, that would be learning first-level spells. And from there you get into the REAL study.
-Explain this one to me. I mean, he's not doing anything deeply personal.
-Perhaps a geas/quest of redemption from the high wizards?
Non-Empire Groups:
The great basin is just really arid desert-like terrain. I figure the fusang probably wouldn't have reached that far inland yet beyond some scouting.
WWDNH is closely related to the history of the mammutchadinne, but it's not actually part of their land.
I think the Mayans are integrated into the aztatlan region the same way the other nations are.
Anasazi (Hisatsinom)
Okay, two things I just learned. One, the Anasazi were way more north than I had thought they were. Two, while we can use Anasazi for discussion purposes (since it's a word everyone already recognizes), It's not a really accurate term. The Anasazi were one of four coexisting ancient pueblo peoples, and the term itself is less-than-sensitive. Instead, I will encourage the use of Hisatsinom, the Hopi word for the ancient pueblo peoples as a whole.
The Hisatsinom are a tricky issue. Initially the idea was shut down because we didn't want to keep all the civilizations that died out in the 13th century alive. We are keeping the tuniit, and cahokia, and the mayan states, after all, and the continued advancement of all these people does have significant potential to change things.
But you do raise a number of convincing points. It's no more unlikely that these people would survive the little ice age than any other group would, and if the cahokians can do it, so could they. And the ancient culture dying out thing has certainly been done before. I suppose it's a question of likelihoods and how cool it would be.
I gotta admit, the idea of a massive cliff-city in the grand canyon sounds AMAZING.
Percussion Caps:
Oooh, good point there. Hadn't thought of that.
Little research says they mention black powder and water, but not anything about wet weather. I suppose it's a question of if the weapon should be unusable, or if it should just be weaker in such conditions. Without some sort of magical effect/protection in place, at least.
Egyptians in the Grand Canyon:
...I'm seriously torn on this one.
On one hand, it does sound pretty awesome, especially in a fantasy setting. An underground city full of egyptian artifacts, gold, jewels, along with the various nasty beasties that may have moved in, ingenious traps, and freakin' warrior-mummies? I mean, come ON, you can't make a more perfect dungeon setup.
On the other hand, it does have implications in regards to the whole cultural progression of the region and similar, and I can't find ANYTHING from a credible source about it. I mean, one place mentions it in the same breath as lizard overlords and claims it's been converted into a museum for shadow-government officials, and another is from a site that supports the hollow earth theory.
What does the rest of the thread think?
Races:
Alright, I'm very nearly done with the little folk, I just have to add a little more fluff to the kinds of folk. Also, I more-or-less finished the mechanical aspects of the yilong (dragon descendants) for fusang and china.
My next plan is to work on the tonal idea I posted, unless anyone has any comments/objections on them.
Sir Augusta
2014-05-08, 08:50 PM
Thanks for the welcome!
And yeah, I guess the Church would avoid directly helping Phoenixes, but I just don't think they should be actively opposing the Phoenixes' ash quest. There could always be some group of renegade scarred monks or something that actively help the Phoenixes. And sorry for being stuck on Phoenixes-they're my favorite mythological creature. =)
About the Pueblo-dwellers, I thought someone earlier had the idea that they found a link to Mars or some other planet, which I thought was a really awesome idea. It adds a really unique and eerie sense of mystery for players exploring their abandoned observatories. And the same person who suggested this idea had a cool little excerpt of a native talking about "star-people," way back in the first thread.
About the Egyptian idea, I'd vote against it. As cool as the dungeon could be, I think that would be pushing the envelope of credibility, and it would probably seem like you were just trying to stick Egypt in somehow. It seems out of place, and they would need some ships that they just didn't have back then to cross the Atlantic. Of course there's magic, but if the Egyptians crossed around 30 BC, then others who were better equipped and motivated would have as well.
SuperDave
2014-05-08, 10:38 PM
OK, I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm not dead and I haven't abandoned the thread, I've just been really busy lately (work is KILLING MY SOUL) and struggling to find time to catch up. I sat down to read everything that's been written in the new thread as soon as I got home and ate dinner, but unfortunately I got sucked into a Wikipedia thingy about alchemy and science and religion and stuff. So I'm still not totally caught up. :smallredface:
However! I can at least contribute one useful element to our research: it's a list of every major historical person (http://openplaques.org/people/alive_in/1750)* who was alive in 1750! If you think of someone and you're not sure when they were alive, you can look 'em up here and find out if they were alive when our setting takes place, and even how old they were. Neat, huh?
I pretty much agree with everything I've read so far, and I think the new thread looks really, really slick! Just two minor things: 1) why is the image for the Spirit World hidden behind a spoiler, when all the other regions have their images out in the open? I feel like they make the thread much easier to navigate when scrolling rapidly. And 2) at one point you spelled their name as "the dorsest culture", Admiral. :smalltongue:
I'm not sure how useful the Little Folk will be in combat if they're Tiny instead of Small, but it does fit the mythology better. I guess we'll see how they playtest, and make adjustments as necessary.
I like the ideas for the Tonal and the Vision-Serpents, but I say drop the Dragonborn (http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonborn) (they're a little too 4e for my taste :smallmad:). I agree that the Tuniit need a name-change, but we can't call the Giant-born or Giant-blooded because that would sound too much like the Sprit-Born and Witchblooded. I might need to get back to you on this one, actually...
*by which I mean "people in the English-speaking world who have plaques dedicated to them in modern-day Britain", but hey, it's the best I could do for the moment.
Edit: I just consolidated our Literacy Feats into a single post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?298284-Reading-Rainbow-Feats-for-Crossroads-Setting&p=17439413&viewfull=1#post17439413), and added/updated some of the feats with more detail. Hope I didn't step on your toes, zabbarot!
About the Egyptian idea, I'd vote against it. As cool as the dungeon could be, I think that would be pushing the envelope of credibility, and it would probably seem like you were just trying to stick Egypt in somehow. It seems out of place, and they would need some ships that they just didn't have back then to cross the Atlantic. Of course there's magic, but if the Egyptians crossed around 30 BC, then others who were better equipped and motivated would have as well.
OK. My understanding on what America Unearthed had said about this theory is that it was feasible if you were crazy and desperate enough to do so, and those devout supporters of Mark Antony (as well as his and Cleopatra's surviving child) were desperate enough to do so. As for them not having enough of an impact, it could be that they only lived 3-4 generations at the most before dying out, as they kept to themselves. However, further research shows that Alexander Helios did not disappear (the legends surrounding the "Egyptian tombs" state that he had done so) and was under house arrest until likely being assassinated on Augustus Octavian's orders. So there isn't much need for it. A Grand Canyon dungeon would still be pretty neat.
Palanan
2014-05-09, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Mith
The idea behind this would be that Cleopatra and Mark Antony's son fled with followers to the Americas.
There is absolutely no credible evidence to support this, and I agree with Sir Augusta that trying to include something like this would only detract from the historical feel of the setting.
There are any number of absurd theories about the Romans or the Carthaginians coming to the New World after this or that lost battle or catastrophe. The fact that you tend to find them on websites discussing lizard overlords should tell you something about their reliability.
Now, there's good textual evidence, or at least strong inference, that a Phoenician mission circumnavigated Africa some three thousand years ago. This is perfectly plausible; they were excellent seafaring people and they would have been coasting all the way, keeping within sight of shore whenever possible.
But the ships of the ancient world simply weren't up to the challenges of a transatlantic crossing--and more to the point, no one in the classical Mediterranean had any idea that the Western Hemisphere existed at all. One expedition may have gone a short ways into the Atlantic, but they found nothing and turned back, and that was the end of it.
Trying to incorporate Egypt or Rome or any other classical civilization into the Crossroads setting would be sharply out of place. There's a grand wealth of material indigenous to the New World, and I think that needs to remain the core inspiration for the setting.
Steckie
2014-05-09, 01:54 PM
Merlinic Oath:
- As soon as able? Seems rushed. I think being a wizard would be kind of like being a martial artist. A long apprenticeship period of ability training and mastery of the basics, until you reach 'black belt'. In a wizard's case, that would be learning first-level spells. And from there you get into the REAL study.
-Explain this one to me. I mean, he's not doing anything deeply personal.
-Perhaps a geas/quest of redemption from the high wizards?
- Alright, maybe not as soon as able. How about "a wizard should strive to take at least one apprentice during his lifetime. Preferably more."
- Depending on the spell a wizard could do some very personal things. Wizard heals the warts on your bum? Personal. Wizard divining your future? Personal. Wizard casting a restore corpse spell so that the children can see their mother instead of her mangled remains? Personal. Blacksmith asking for a crafter's fortune spell so he can make a special piece so that he wont fall in disgrace? Personal.
Those are a few examples of things that could be very personal. That's why i think this would fit in the merlinic oath.
- Geas sounds good. Quest of redemption sounds good as well but i think they'll need to put a geas on the offender anyway to make sure he does what he's supposed to do.
Non-Empire Groups:
The great basin is just really arid desert-like terrain. I figure the fusang probably wouldn't have reached that far inland yet beyond some scouting.
A quick search tells me that the people living there were the Shoshone, Ute, Paiute and Mono tribes.
Do you have something in mind for them?
Oh, and Yellowstone is relatively close to the Great Basin. Well, on the map it seems relatively close. The Arches national park is there as well. And Bryce Canyon national park. And Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park. And some others.
In fact, looking at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_parks_of_the_United_States) list there are a lot of national parks around the Great Basin area, most of them for a good reason. Maybe do something with that?
Percussion Caps:
Oooh, good point there. Hadn't thought of that.
Little research says they mention black powder and water, but not anything about wet weather. I suppose it's a question of if the weapon should be unusable, or if it should just be weaker in such conditions. Without some sort of magical effect/protection in place, at least.
Making it weaker would be weird. Either the black powder ignites and you shoot the gun or it doesn't ignite and you don't shoot.
Maybe make the shot take longer? In wet weather shooting a gun goes from a standard action to a full round action or something like that?
Egyptians
I'm with Palanan and Sir Augusta on this one. I vote against Egyptians.
I'm with Palanan and Sir Augusta on this one. I vote against Egyptians.
I am throwing my vote behind it. Most of what I had heard of this concept came from someone else reading of it, so I thought that it would be an interesting way to do a dungeon in the Grand Canyon. After looking further into the story, I agree that it wouldn't work.
Palanan
2014-05-10, 05:44 PM
So, a couple of thoughts on Columbia, in particular a suggestion about New Amsterdam. Ordinarily it would have long since changed hands to the English, but I'd suggest keeping it as New Amsterdam--perhaps a free city-state on the island of Manhattan, surrounded by English holdings.
This occurred to me because I've just picked up an intriguing book: The Island at the Center of the World (http://www.amazon.com/Island-Center-World-Manhattan-Forgotten/dp/1400078679), which examines the early colony of New Netherland. Here's the quote that caught my eye:
Founded by the Dutch, this tiny community on the edge of the wilderness supported a staggering array of peoples--Norwegians, Germans, Italians, free and slave Africans, Jews, Bohemians, Mohawk Indians, and more.
According to the book, New Netherland followed the lead of Amsterdam, described as "Europe's most liberal city," and placed a premium on free trade and personal liberty. This would make for quite a contrast with the more straitlaced English colonies, and as a cosmopolitan trading port it would stand out as a place where a hodgepodge of languages, races and cultures coexist in a sort of freewheeling tolerance.
It would be a great city to set stories in, or to design a character who calls it home. I could see it being the leading city in Columbia, powered by free trade and holding its own against the larger colonies all around it.
.
Steckie
2014-05-11, 01:25 PM
I have actually been thinking something along those lines. Not the part about your New York changes, but the part about breaking the English monopoly on the east coast. I'd love to see Nieuw Nederland (New Netherlands) and Nya Sverige (New Sweden) in this setting.
It would make Columbia a much more interesting place, an east coast dominated by English colonies is a bit too much of the same flavor.
I'm not sure on making Nieuw Amsterdam (the correct Dutch term) an independant city state though. It's a bit early to start for a revolution. And if it were time for a revolution it would be much more interesting to let the players actually take part in these revolutions. Columbia could be firmly in the hands of the colonial powers and the colonies of several nations are working together against some of the Native threats, but because they start working closer together and learning from each other they also start to wonder why they are ruled by people from across the ocean.
Et voila, instant boatload of plot hooks.
Oh, and something interesting i found out today: the Knights Hospitaller of Malta also owned a couple of Islands in the Carribean. Wouldn't it be awesome to have a catholic military order doing their thing on those islands? They have their roots in taking care for poor, sick or injured people. That would make them fit in nicely with the natives and their problems with European diseases.
SuperDave
2014-05-11, 09:36 PM
I have actually been thinking something along those lines. Not the part about your New York changes, but the part about breaking the English monopoly on the east coast. I'd love to see Nieuw Nederland (New Netherlands) and Nya Sverige (New Sweden) in this setting.
It would make Columbia a much more interesting place, an east coast dominated by English colonies is a bit too much of the same flavor.
You know, I think I actually did refer to it as "New Amsterdam" when I drew the map of Tuniitaq. (I'm not sure why I put it on that map, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.)
I totally support the idea of tossing more European powers into the mix. I was actually wondering if people would want to play in Columbia, since it's got so little to set it apart from actual history.
On a related note, how does the thread feel about referring to the European colonies as "Nova Europa" or soimething similar, to avoid confusion with the modern-day country of Colombia? Just a thought.
Oh, and something interesting i found out today: the Knights Hospitaller of Malta also owned a couple of Islands in the Carribean. Wouldn't it be awesome to have a catholic military order doing their thing on those islands? They have their roots in taking care for poor, sick or injured people. That would make them fit in nicely with the natives and their problems with European diseases.
I like this a lot. I feel like the Scarred Monks (and by extension, the Church as a whole) have kind of been relegated to "villain" status, and these guys could be a nice counter to that.
Percussion caps
Maybe weather-affecting spells just increase the likelihood that the gun will misfire? I'm willing to bet there will be magical ways to counteract this, too. They could be cast on the weapon itself, to make it unaffected by the ambient weather; or there could be an alchemical gunpowder that works fine in all weather; or there could be enchanted powder-horns which keep all powder stored in them nice and dry, even for a few minutes after it leaves the horn (potentially allowing it to be fired underwater?).
Anasazi
At first I wasn't sure about the idea (I was pretty attached to my "Barsoom" plot-hook), but I've grown fond of the idea. It definitely has merit, and whoever-it-was had merit when the pointed out that the Tuniit and Cahokia survived, so the Anasazi might, too.
Oooh, what if they built spider-silk suspension-bridges across the canyons, or wove it into rope-ladders, after they learned the trick of spinning it from old Spider Grandmother (http://www.discovernavajo.com/spho.html)?
Non-Empire Groups
I feel like a lot of these could be covered under the posts for other regions. For example, the Iroquois could be covered under Columbia, because they had more trade with the French and English than the Cahokian League, and they had a significant influence on early American government.
We could give the non-empire groups their own post/thread, but then we're just arbitrarily grouping a lot of unrelated groups from totally different regions together because they're slightly smaller than other groups. I feel like geography is the only way to organize this, even it we have to draw some arbitrary lines in the sand to do it.
Tuniit
What if we refer to the culture as "the Tuniit", and to the giants (not all of whom are part of the Tuniit culture) as "the Giant-blooded"? (I know I said that sounded too much like the witchblood earlier, but I really can't think of any other name for them, other than "the Big Folk", which doesn't sound quite right to me.)
The Tuniit would be a blend of proto-eskimo shamanism, Norse technology, and French language, or something along those lines. They're really like a big, cultural sponge.
Steckie
2014-05-12, 02:52 PM
On a related note, how does the thread feel about referring to the European colonies as "Nova Europa" or soimething similar, to avoid confusion with the modern-day country of Colombia? Just a thought.
I'm in favor of changing the name.
For me it reminds me too much of the country Columbia. Not the state: i'm Belgian, i didn't even know there was a state named Columbia until a few months ago.
I'm not sure about Nova Europa though, it sounds a bit weird. And i don't see a reason why people would want that name.
One other thing i wanted to bring up about Columbia (i'll use it as a working-title): the Papal States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States).
The Popes used to have a sizable part of Italy under direct control and fought several wars with other Italian states for control of the peninsula.
But in Crossroads the church has a lot more power, so maybe they are able to win some more of those wars. Or they have some more diplomatic control over the peninsula. Whatever the reason, the Papal States can definatly be powerfull and rich enough to start some of their own colonies.
That would put the influence of the Pope very close to the people of the new world. The pope could appoint a representative to rule in his place.
I like this a lot. I feel like the Scarred Monks (and by extension, the Church as a whole) have kind of been relegated to "villain" status, and these guys could be a nice counter to that.
I did some more research and it turns out they only held the items for 14 years (1651 - 1665) until monetary problems forced them to sell the islands to France.
We can still make this work though, with a little monetary aid from the pope they can probably hang on to those islands.
Or, if we decide to add Papal colonies, they could be partly ruling those colonies. That might even fit a bit better. They sell the islands like it happened historically, but are later asked by the pope for support in the new Papal colonies. Their knowledge in treating wounded and diseased people would be very valuable in Vespuccia.
After the Knights reach Vespuccia they somehow find out about the Midewiwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midewiwin) and start dealing with them.
Anasazi
At first I wasn't sure about the idea (I was pretty attached to my "Barsoom" plot-hook), but I've grown fond of the idea. It definitely has merit, and whoever-it-was had merit when the pointed out that the Tuniit and Cahokia survived, so the Anasazi might, too.
Oooh, what if they built spider-silk suspension-bridges across the canyons, or wove it into rope-ladders, after they learned the trick of spinning it from old Spider Grandmother (http://www.discovernavajo.com/spho.html)?
The bridges sound nice, they probably would develop some sort of elevator system as well if they have access to strong rope.
Another idea i had that we could use for them: Wind Mages.
The Anasazi build something in their cliff cities (A monolith perhaps?) wich allows them a great deal of control over the winds in that canyon. That's what makes their cliff cities almost impenetrable fortressess. Stones dropped from above or arrows shot from above at the city will just be blown away. Even cannonballs can be somewhat deflected, but not by much.
The Anasazi man the rope bridges and because of their life on the bridges they are able to stay on them in very strong winds while potential invaders will be pushed off.
During droughts they often use their power over wind to call down moist air into their canyon where it forms a fog that drips down the rocks and into large water reservoirs. It's how they survived the little ice age.
Anasazi raiding parties often venture into the Great Plains. They usually go during tornado season and stay around the 'Tornado Alley' area. There they read the winds and either influence them to become tornadoes or predict when tornadoes will form.
After that they can roughly direct the tornado in the diretion they want. They send the tornado ahead of them to blow away potential defenders of camps or cities. After that they swoop in and start looting.
I'm somewhat tempted to have them kill Dire Bats for their wings and use those as a way to glide through the canyons that have a monolith. And i mean only through those canyons, as soon as they fly above the canyon they start losing control over the wings and either crash or glide to the ground.
I'm not sure this would fit with the theme since all fly spells have been removed. Wich is something i love about the setting and i wouldn't want to see changed.
Non-Empire Groups
I feel like a lot of these could be covered under the posts for other regions. For example, the Iroquois could be covered under Columbia, because they had more trade with the French and English than the Cahokian League, and they had a significant influence on early American government.
We could give the non-empire groups their own post/thread, but then we're just arbitrarily grouping a lot of unrelated groups from totally different regions together because they're slightly smaller than other groups. I feel like geography is the only way to organize this, even it we have to draw some arbitrary lines in the sand to do it.
The Iroquois, sure. But doing things like placing Russian Alaska under Tuniitaq where it would fit geographically is probably a bit weird.
Or grouping the Anasazi under some other place wich would give the impression that they are part of that area while they are a fiercely independant people locked between 3 larger neighbours.
Making a post that says 'Unaligned' or something like that would probably work. They aren't arbitrarily grouped together, they just happen to be listed under one title but it's pretty clear they're not allied to each other.
Palanan
2014-05-12, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Steckie
I'd love to see Nieuw Nederland (New Netherlands) and Nya Sverige (New Sweden) in this setting.
Agreed, on both counts. They'd make for an interesting contrast with the surrounding English colonies.
Originally Posted by Steckie
I'm not sure on making Nieuw Amsterdam (the correct Dutch term) an independant city state though. It's a bit early to start for a revolution.
Not sure what you mean by the second sentence. A revolution wouldn't be necessary, not for what's essentially the continuation of a substantial period of historical settlement. We're extending the lifespan of Cahokia and the Mayan states (among others) by many centuries, so keeping New Netherland around a little longer isn't that much of a stretch.
As for rule by the Dutch, I could see the city itself as developing much like Venice: an island-based, trade-driven economy, which owes nominal fealty to the Netherlands--much as Venice considered itself part of the surviving Roman empire--but in practice self-governing and essentially independent.
Originally Posted by Steckie
Columbia could be firmly in the hands of the colonial powers and the colonies of several nations are working together against some of the Native threats, but because they start working closer together and learning from each other they also start to wonder why they are ruled by people from across the ocean.
And an functionally independent New Netherland colony could lead the way. :smalltongue:
Really, I wouldn't think your idea of intercolonial cooperation would conflict at all with a multi-ethnic, anything-goes freeport on the southern tip of Manhattan Island. New Netherland would be the perfect place for representatives from the other colonies to meet, formally and informally--and naturally it would be a hotbed of espionage and skullduggery as well. Talk about plot hooks, yah?
:smallbiggrin:
Originally Posted by Steckie
Oh, and something interesting i found out today: the Knights Hospitaller of Malta also owned a couple of Islands in the [Caribbean]. Wouldn't it be awesome to have a catholic military order doing their thing on those islands?
Very interesting indeed, and I'd love to know which islands. My first question, though, is why they weren't doing something like this in actual history. Did they simply not pay much attention to their Caribbean possessions?
Originally Posted by SuperDave
On a related note, how does the thread feel about referring to the European colonies as "Nova Europa" or soimething similar, to avoid confusion with the modern-day country of Colombia?
Columbia actually sounded fine to me, very evocative of that alternate-history feel I enjoy so much.
But if you really want to change it, I'd avoid Nova Europa. It sounds a little too strained, and I agree with Steckie that there's no clear reason why anyone living in the colonies would want to use it.
Besides, whatever happened to Vespuccia? That was the name which first drew my interest to this project, and it was used for about the first 25 pages of the first thread. Is the continent still known as Vespuccia, at least to the Europeans?
If not, for whatever reason, there are other names to try--such as Verrazzania, after Giovanni da Verrazzano; or Terra Nova, which was the early Portuguese name for Newfoundland, and which could have been extended southwards as a conveniently Latin-sounding term. Or, something like Santa Mariana, since the Spanish had named the Chesapeake as Bahia de Santa Maria, which might have spread north--or perhaps simply La Florida, which for the Spanish originally encompassed the entire Atlantic seaboard from the Florida Keys clear up to Newfoundland.
There are a lot of historical options to choose or extrapolate from; but absent any strong argument for any of them, I'd say Columbia is fine.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-12, 10:46 PM
Sorry for the long silence, with mother's day weekend and all the cooking/baking/visiting family, I haven't had time to really make any serious posts.
Little Folk
I didn't have time for postings, but I did have time to finish the Little Folk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348181-Little-Folk-Crossroads-Tiny-Fey-Race&p=17456678) race!
I'm really proud of these guys, but there are certainly a few things I'd like the thread-people to weigh in on, so go check out the thread and comment there!
some of the topics:
Wind Folk and their limited flight ability.
The 'Strong as a Dwarf' Ability. Should it be universal?
The little folk language 'Fae'.
I will say, I really, really wanna play some of these dudes. A wiing hunter, a lady menehune brute...
Phoenixes:
No need to apologize for what you like, dude.
I could imagine a sort of 'don't interfere' general policy around the phoenixes.
If there are no objections, i will declare it finished.
Hisatsinom (Anasazi)
Man, this is stirrin' up a bunch of ideas.
Okay, so, we'll say the hisatsinom culture survived into the modern age. We can either have them exists as a distinct cultural region around four corners and west to nevada, or we can merge them with the existing pueblo cultures and have them occupy the entire southwest region. A lot of the modern pueblo tribes are descended directly from the hisatsinom groups.
We could still have a particular tribe or group that did the whole 'barsoom' thing, it just wouldn't be the entire civilization.
Spiders
I really like the idea of bridges spanning canyons to allow for multilevel and dual-faced cities, and I think the only way to have that accomplished is either through spiders or through imported incan ropes. and I doubt the incan traders are that generous.
Now, I see two ways for spiders to work out.
Option one: giant spiders, about medium size, that live and work with the hisatsinom groups, either via domestication or by being intelligent, independant organisms. I could see them working sort of like llamas, they're not strong enough to be ridden, but they can carry reasonable loads and they can leave silk ropes for the people to climb after them. It may be a challenge to feed large carnivores like that, though, particularly because the pueblo cultures are mostly agricultural, not animal-raising.
Option two: Regular spiders. The hisatsinom sanctify spiders and live in close proximity with them to manage insect populations. Then some priests develop the ability to control swarms of the spiders, and start to use them to create silken fibers. They can make rope this way, out of thousands of individual strands, that's stronger and lighter than anything previously known. The new ropes allow them to make bridges across the canyons they call home and stronger ladders to go up and down the walls. Oh, and there may or may not be traditional spider webs spaced between the vertical ropes on the bridges, to feed the large populations of spiders that are needed to make all this rope.
Winds
I think you're looking in the right direction, but you may have just taken it a little too far down the road. I could certainly see their priests regarding wind and air very highly. I could imagine one of the standard city defenses being a wind wall cast over the cliff face to deflect arrows and bullets. I could even imagine using magic to fill reservoirs, though I'm not certain about using fog to do it. But conjuring tornadoes as part of regular warfare? Flying through the valleys on severed dire bat wings? Monoliths of control winds? Takin' it a little far. I mean, we're already considering giving them a major technological advantage through the spider silk, you may just be asking a bit much.
Egyptians
Alright, no Egyptians. It's decided. If we still want to have something like that, though, it would be easy enough to have some hisatsinom group leave something similar with different overtones.
Dragon Descendants (Yilong)
I'd like to reiterate these guys are not just going to be half-dragons or dragonborn. At the surface, they're just gifted humans who have some unusual abilities depending on their dragon ancestor. However, they have a pretty extensive feat-set that allows them to unlock portions of their draconic heritage one at a time. So, for example, scales of the dragon. You take it, and you get a +1 natural armor bonus to AC, or you can activate the feat to gain a bonus equal to the number of yilong feats you possess. But while that's active you couldn't activate an of the other yilong feats, and there's also the discretion angle on it, too.
Tuniit
Yeah, giant-blooded just sounds weird. I would say we could get something translated, but there's no dorset language to use... Stupid history.
Merlinic Oath
-Ehh, now that's just too vague. Maybe there's a set point, like second-level spellcasting? Ooh, perhaps the level of spell you can use is used as part of your rank among merlinic wizards? Like, 'mage of the 4th circle' would mean you can use 4th level spells. so you'd be required to take an apprentice upon reaching 2nd or 3rd circle. Could go the other, way, though, so 9th-circle is 1st level and 1st-circle is 9th level spells.
-I don't think wizards have the spells to cure the warts on yer bum. But I suppose I could see something about not divulging client's names. It probably wouldn't be as strict as it is with doctors, though.
-Probably true enough.
-Oh, how should the merlinic wizards deal with violence? Is it wrong to use your magic to attack or kill? What about self-defense? Maybe they can only use magic to attack nonhumans? What about getting involved in warfare?
Independent Groups
It seems to me like there's points on both sides of the argument. We've got... five areas, I think, that would go in an independent area post.
Percussion Caps:
I don't really see how it would take longer for the shot to go off. If it's wet enough to slow the powder's ignition, it would be too wet to fire at all. There's a minimum speed for the powder to go off at in order for the explosion to be powerful enough to propel the bullet.
So, I suppose wet weather would just make it impossible to fire a firearm. We should have an enchantment that makes the gun maintain an air bubble effect, for just such a reason.
New Amsterdam
I would have to agree, I don't think that it would be completely independent from the dutch at this point in history. It could be largely independent of it's owner-state, but it wouldn't be truly, officially independent at this hour. I do definitely like the idea of the city itself, being very diverse and multicultural.
More European Powers
Well, it's certainly an interesting addition. I'm not certain how realistic it is, but it's something to think about. Where would these areas fit into Columbia?
Columbia Rename
Hmm. Well, I'm always open to new ideas. I'm not sold on Nova Europa, though. What else do we have?
There isn't a US state called Columbia. There's the District of Columbia, but that's not technically a state.
I think we eventually decided that Vespuccia was a bit nerdy for the setting name as a whole, since only history-nerds would get the reference. Plus it was euro-centric. I suppose it could be re-purposed as a collective name for the colonies as a whole.
We could just call it 'The Colonies', too.
I like Columbia just fine, though. I mean, if we really want to change the name, I'll do it, but I think this works fine.
Papal States/Knights Hospitalier
Hmm, a church-controlled state seems like it would definitely fit into the setting. So, around the end of the black plague, funded by donations from every nobleman in the continent that was saved by their priests, the church takes official control over the Italian states, uniting the peninsula under their control. Not only do they have the full resources of a sizable country, they have funding from donations all across europe, and great deal of influence on their neighbor's leaders. Though, would the church still have this influence if the other leaders actually viewed the church in the same light as they do their rival countries?
Still, the church is rich enough to start founding colonies here and there. I don't think they'd be able to afford any real land on the mainland, but they could probably buy a couple of Caribbean islands. Perhaps one could still be run by the knights hospitalier. Could be something of a destination, even, where they absorb medical knowledge and techniques from all sorts of different sources, even native groups, and can dispatch healers all around the new world to deal with outbreaks or powerful figures who become ill.
Maybe set up the Knights as a force within the Church that is opposed to the Inquisition? To the Knights, the Inquisition and the Scarred Monks are power hungry, ambitious, and far too influential.
Hrmmm...gimmie a bit and I'll think up some backstory for them.
Okay so.
The Knights Hospitallier are the last of the great Knightly orders founded during the crusades. After Constantinoples fell to Saladin's armies it seemed like it was inevitable that the Ottomans would continue westward. The Holy See ordered the Knights to stand as a bastion to defend Christendom against outsiders. The Knights steeled themselves for a great battle that never came. However, over the years they have grown powerful. Noblemen are fond of donating wealth, soldiers, ships, and even their children to serve the Knights. The Knights studied how to fight all sorts of foes, both human and monstrous, magical and mundane.
The idea was that, when the Ottomans DID begin a full scale invasion of Europe, the Knights would lead the armies of Europe against their enemies.
However, as the years wore on, the great war never came.The Knights did their part, serving as advisors and lending elite troops to the frontlines, but before long the Knights settlted into a different role. Although the Tear above Pompeii was weakened, powerful monsters still roamed the lands, and the Knights took to the front lines to contain and defeat these dangerous beasts. The Knights also became adept diplomats. While they had been founded to battle the Ottomans, more and more they found themselves brokering peace.
And then, the Inquisition came. While the Knights would intervene to defend people from magical creatures, the Inquisition actively hunted them. While the Knights would advise kings and lords, the Inquisition sought to control them. Especially distasteful to the Knights were the Scarred Monks. The Knights were not fanatically anti-arcane magic. In their early days (before the Inquisition banned arcane spellcasting) the Knights even counted many powerful mages among their number. The Knights were especially unnerved by the Scarred Monks, who the Knights saw as embodying the Inquistion's fanaticism and Ambition. However, by the time the Inquisition rose to power, the Knights were too weak to stop them.
Unlike the inquisition, the Knights are capable of directly holding territory and raising troops. Knights frequently serve as bodyguards for Missionaries, seek out and slay especially dangerous beasts, and always remain vigilant for signs of Inquisitorial excess.
The Knights view the inquisition as power hungry madmen. The Inquisition views the Knights as little more than toothless old dogs, as an order whose time has long since passed, and are no longer capable or willing of doing what they must.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-13, 01:15 AM
So, I just read the entire wikipedia article on the knights hospitaller, from the founding to the loss of Malta in 1798. I sort of assumed they were in the business of hospitals because of the name...
Despite being initially founded to run a hospital to care for the sick and injured pilgrims in the holy land, the knights expanded into armed escort services, then became the largest religious military force next to the knights templar. they hung around, even after the templars got disbanded, and hopscotched around the Mediterranean from place to place, fighting ottomans. Eventually, after they got granted the island of Malta (for the rental price of one maltese falcon presented to the king each all saint's day), they fell into a slightly less dignified role. They declared themselves the police force of the Mediterranean, and began seizing any ottoman or barbary ships they found, and selling both cargo and crew, many growing rich and corrupt in the process.
Now I'm no longer so sure where they would fit into the setting.
So, let's say we keep most of the history intact. However, in our world, we have the papal state takeover. After the siege of Malta (1565, 40000 ottomans attacked the island, which had 700 knights and 8000 troops. They killed more than half the invading force before the ottomans gave up. There were only 600 men able to bear arms on the knights' side when the invaders surrendered) , they pledge their naval force to the papal state, which rapidly cements the church's control over the peninsula. The knights join the papal state as a sort of autonomous state. They're under the sovereignty of the pope, but they have most of their internal government intact. With the church's resources at their back, they don't run up into the money issues that drove them into the massive raiding/seizing/slaving operation in 16th and 17th centuries. They become the state's naval force. In 1651, they buy some islands in the Caribbean, and start using them as naval bases. After they get the deed to St. Croix, they step it up and start converting the island into a Malta-style naval fortress. This becomes the main seat of papal naval power in the region, and they take a number of the virgin islands, making several attempts on puerto rico, but the spanish maintain their hold.
They are an extremely proud group, who view themselves as naval paladins, honorable and strong. They have a longstanding disagreement with the inquisition. The inquisitions fanaticism and methods repulse the knights, who view them as cowardly and abandoning the true principles of the church. The inquisition thinks they're dinosaurs, an out-of-touch band who are stuck in the past and unable to see the true nature of the battle against evil.
That works fairly nicely.
The Inquisition and the Knights both have Papal authority. Technically, the Knights are supposed to be guarding the church from external threats, while the Inquisition is supposed to be rooting out heresy, but those lines of jurisdiction are increasingly muddled, especially in the New World. Politically, the Inquisition is more powerful, but the Knights are well respected, and even Inquisitors are wary of leveling accusations against the Knights.
Most people have a deep respect for the Knights. If an Inquisitor starts accusing Knights, then people are likely to begin doubting the Inquisitor.
Palanan
2014-05-13, 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
I would have to agree, I don't think that [New Amsterdam] would be completely independent from the dutch at this point in history. It could be largely independent of it's owner-state, but it wouldn't be truly, officially independent at this hour. I do definitely like the idea of the city itself, being very diverse and multicultural.
This works for me, and the nuances of upper-level government aren't as important as the freewheeling diversity and the emphasis on trade, free thought and personal liberty. It makes for a dynamic city at the heart of the Atlantic colonies, sited on an excellent natural harbor and serving as the crossroads for every nationality and culture in the region.
It would be pretty raucous down at the quays and jetties, but the local elites would want to show off their wealth by supporting cultural and intellectual endeavors, and the city would be a hotbed of scientific and philosophical inquiry.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
I think we eventually decided that Vespuccia was a bit nerdy for the setting name as a whole, since only history-nerds would get the reference. Plus it was euro-centric.
Maybe not for the entire setting, but there's no reason why European colonists wouldn't use a eurocentric name. :smalltongue:
Really, that would be their outlook. Bringing civilization to the savage wilderness and so on. It may not jibe with today's sensibilities, but that was very much the fundamental tone of the period, and those attitudes will be part of every colony on the Atlantic seaboard.
And Vespuccia would make sense from their perspective, as a term for the landmass widely popularized by Vespucci. Most of the native peoples they encountered wouldn't have a competing term, because they wouldn't have the same concept of the continent as a whole. Local placenames, yes--but most of the Indian cultures were very localized, and only had a hazy idea of the geography more than a few days' travel away. For the Europeans coming from the east, Vespuccia is as good a name for the continent as any.
As for a name for the colonies themselves, "Columbian colonies" would probably work fine for English daily use, which would be modified as needed by other languages--the Portuguese would likely call them "os Columbos", for instance. The term for all the settlements--English, Dutch, Swedish, probably French and maybe Spanish further south--would really depend on who's speaking, but some version of "Vespuccian colonies" would probably cover everything on the Atlantic coast.
I like the idea of keeping New Amsterdam Dutch. We'll need a good reason why the British have not taken it, but it works.
IIRC, the Dutch basically ran all their new-world colonies like trading posts, which was fine when it was a few merchants and a small garrison, but it did not provide enough infrastructure to handle a city as large and complex as New Amsterdam. That could explain the semi-independence, the colonial government was forced to build it's own bureaucracy and infrastructure,It's been a few years since I wrote that paper on the fall of New Amsterdam, but I could try to do some research and concoct a narrative about why the colony did not fall.
Also, fun fact, I'm apparently descended from Peter Stuyvesant, the last governor of New Amsterdam.
Steckie
2014-05-13, 01:22 PM
Not sure what you mean by the second sentence. A revolution wouldn't be necessary, not for what's essentially the continuation of a substantial period of historical settlement. We're extending the lifespan of Cahokia and the Mayan states (among others) by many centuries, so keeping New Netherland around a little longer isn't that much of a stretch.
As for rule by the Dutch, I could see the city itself as developing much like Venice: an island-based, trade-driven economy, which owes nominal fealty to the Netherlands--much as Venice considered itself part of the surviving Roman empire--but in practice self-governing and essentially independent
And an functionally independent New Netherland colony could lead the way. :smalltongue:
Really, I wouldn't think your idea of intercolonial cooperation would conflict at all with a multi-ethnic, anything-goes freeport on the southern tip of Manhattan Island. New Netherland would be the perfect place for representatives from the other colonies to meet, formally and informally--and naturally it would be a hotbed of espionage and skullduggery as well. Talk about plot hooks, yah?.
What i meant to say is that they shouldn't have a formal declaration of independence yet. I may have been a bit unclear about that.
I agree with you that they should owe nominal fealty to their mother country, but act mostly independant. They probably still pay a substantial amount of taxes. That way they still have the protection of the Dutch navy.
And despite not liking what i've heard about New York, i already love Nieuw Amsterdam :smallsmile:
Hisatsinom
Probably best to merge the pueblo tribes, things would get very confusing if we didn't.
Maybe base them a bit on the Greek city-states?
Let's keep it historical until the 1200's when they historically died out. They survived but a lot of tensions started to arise between the various Cliff Cities. Somewhere in the 1400's things got really bad and the many wars led to a few famines. Out of desperation the Cliff Cities started working more closely together, signing peace treaties left and right. Things became peacefull for a while, but after a few decades there were new tensions over who was to lead the Cliff City Alliance.
War was averted by a great priest who declared that the spirits have told him they should all work together and found a city in the holiest and biggest canyon there is. Each city sends a group of colonists and builders to help with the efforts and marriage between people from different cities is encouraged.
They build a huge council chambers and each city sends a councillor to represent them. After a while the voice of Grand Canyon City starts becoming the voice people listen to. Their population increases until they are by far the largest Cliff City. Every Cliff City is still independant, but very much tied into the political system through alliances, trade agreements and marriages.
We do need a better name for Grand Canyon City. Ongtupqa is the Hopi word for the Grand Canyon, maybe use that?
And i like the second spider option, the swarms.
Wind Mages
I see your points, and i agree that the bat wing flying took it too far.
Oh, and i meant to use those monoliths as a means to fill up the reservoirs, that's where the fog comes in. The monoliths are a tool the priests use to draw moist air down into the canyons where it forms a fog. That fog makes water drops on cliff walls, where it follows the paths carved out by the city builders into the reservoirs. A monolith doesn't control the winds, it is a form of climate control. It could even be the source of that wind wall spell over the city.
Conjuring tornadoes probably took it too far again.
But how about directing existing tornadoes? Not in a very precise way, they can't turn one around, but they can deflect it a bit in a certain direction.
Maybe they 'farm' something from those tornadoes?
Sorry to go on about the tornadoes like this but i'm imagining a group of players in a 'storm chasers' scenario where they roam the plains while avoiding Cahokian war parties. They 'hunt' down storm systems that look like they are forming a tornado and then either 'farm' the tornado on the spot or herd the tornado back to a place where it can be 'farmed'.
Merlinic Oath
- The circles sound good.
- You're right, it shouldn't been as strict as a doctor's oath. But they should still be considered discrete.
- Violence is probably pretty common. I assumed Merlinic wizards are often used in wars. Or as protection against Church wizards. Why not make them subject to the normal laws about violence and murder, alhtough their punishments should probably be different.
Knights Hospitaller
I like the story so far. But maybe 4 islands isn't enough for them to have an effect on the setting? Maybe some more islands? Or a small part of Mainland Vespuccia?
And how about they sell their rights to Malta to the pope entirely? They use the money to bolster their army and navy. They also go back to their hospitaller roots of protecting and healing christian pilgrims in a heathen land.
One question: if these guys are some sort of naval paladins, who are their main opponents? And what effect will they have on the Mainland?
We could move the end date of the Golden Age of Piracy a bit. The European powers have less control over the coasts surrounding the Carribean, so pirates have a much easier time to hide or resupply.
That would give the Knights something to hunt. And it gives DM's a chance to run pirate campaigns, those are pretty popular.
Knights Hospitaller
I like the story so far. But maybe 4 islands isn't enough for them to have an effect on the setting? Maybe some more islands? Or a small part of Mainland Vespuccia?
And how about they sell their rights to Malta to the pope entirely? They use the money to bolster their army and navy. They also go back to their hospitaller roots of protecting and healing christian pilgrims in a heathen land.
One question: if these guys are some sort of naval paladins, who are their main opponents? And what effect will they have on the Mainland?
We could move the end date of the Golden Age of Piracy a bit. The European powers have less control over the coasts surrounding the Carribean, so pirates have a much easier time to hide or resupply.
That would give the Knights something to hunt. And it gives DM's a chance to run pirate campaigns, those are pretty popular.
Just because they only hold a few islands does not mean they don't have considerable influence.
I see them working like the inquisition, operating within the borders of other nations. They're seen as a neutral party, a Knight's ship will be just as welcome in a French or Spanish port. Heck, if they managed to stay neutral through the Reformation, they could easily be welcome in Dutch or English colonies as well.
The Knights don't really claim territory, and have little in the way of a larger political agenda (besides "Keeping an eye on those Inquisition types" and "Protecting the faithful") they can set up outposts more-or-less anywhere without getting into too much trouble. Plus, they're out there serving as bodyguards to missionaries. Generally speaking, the Knights are non-threatening, perhaps even comforting. They're not going to usurp your power or conquer your villages.
"New Malta" or whatever serves as a training area and staging ground for the Knights. Individual Knights are welcome just about anywhere (Except the Triple Alliance, and perhaps some of the more intensely puritan English colonies).
Their power is more in respect and reputation than in massive armies. The Knights don't make demands of Governors or generals, but when they speak, you listen. Politically speaking, refusing the counsel of a Knight Hospitallier is a bad move. The Knights themselves won't mention it, but everybody else will wonder why you refused the assistance of the stalwart defenders of the faith.
They're generally seen as being "Above" the games of politics and power, and that reputation is what makes them such effective players.
That said, they walk a fine line. If they're too passive, they risk being forgotten and losing their influence. If they're too aggressive, then they are seen as just another group of politicians pushing their agenda.
A big part of the Knight's success in the new world is that, while they do guard missionaries, they are not missionaries themselves. They obey the local laws to the best of their abilities and within the bounds of their mission, regardless if those laws are written in Spanish, Latin, or Chinese. The Knights are one of the few groups that can go just about anywhere unmolested by local authorities, and while they may be viewed with suspicion, they're generally welcome as long as they don't cause trouble, which they rarely do.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-13, 04:12 PM
Ahhh, I love the smell of new posts in the morning.
Little Folk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348181-Little-Folk-Crossroads-Tiny-Fey-Race)
Just reminding folks they're posted, and I'd love some commentary on them.
Knights Hospitaller
Man, these guys are a popular topic!
I like the idea of the knights being sort of 'above reproach' by the inquisition. They've served the church faithfully since the crusades, fighting the good fight. Their leader was at one point (It may have just been the one guy, or it may be attached to the leadership position), both a prince of the holy roman empire and a religious authority equal to a cardinal, and at least one was declared a Defender of the Faith by the pope. This is pretty much what a D&D paladin order would look like in the real world.
I don't think the number of islands is all that important. Saint Croix is aout 2/3 the size of Malta, and they did a dang fine job operating out of the one island.
I don't think they would sell malta. Firstly, because they've been there for like 200 years, and a lot of them have native wives and families there. Secondly, I don't think they would be allowed to by the terms of their agreement with Sicily.
I had considered taking them back to their roots, but I find it unlikely that they would just abandon the military tradition that's kept them alive so far. We could have a resurgence of the three branches, though. Originally, they were divided into three distinct classes of brother. There were the military brothers, the brothers infirmarians, and the brothers chaplains. New Malta could have all three groups represented in their numbers. There could well be a great hospital within the walls of New Malta, or perhaps they established it on another pone of the islands.
As to their opponents, they order had big rule about not going to war with any other catholic nation. so, they wuldn't be fighting Spain or France, though they might clash with the English, though it's less likely. They could certainly fight native ships and pirates. I am definitely in support of extending the age of piracy, because hell yes, pirates.
The nights were pretty tolerant of other branches of christianity, it seems, as they were still on friendly terms with the English after the reformation. Though, that could well be different if they became part of the papal state.
The knights do have territory, though they probably wouldn't be taking it from other european forces. They're not an invasion threat (unless you happen to not be a heathen) so they would be relatively non-threatening in european ports of all kinds.
I could see the nights continuing their escort operations, their ships providing escort to cargo ships and anything from the papal state, and actual knights on the ground to escort priests and holy men in the new world.
A side note: I think an awesome thing to add to these guys would be falconry. Like, every full-fledged knight gets a maltese falcon companion. We could even make these falcons extra-awesome, with some sort of unusual features. Maybe they're even a little divine, like a celestial falcon or something. Hmm. Perhaps it's a feat, or part of a prestige class? Or perhaps you need the feat 'Oath of the Hospitallers' to get into the prestige class later.
New Amsterdam
I really like the idea of the city, but as mentioned, we will need a reason the english never took it. I look forward to hearing what you come up with, BRC, I'll do a little research myself and see what I can find.
On Vespuccia[/B
Hence why we changed the name of the setting.
I'm not arguing it's not a suitable name for the continent for european use. Perhaps they use Vespuccia to refer to the continent, and columbia to refer to the European-settled portions. Or, you know, whatever their language would translate that as. I think we'll stick to calling them Columbia in the thread, and just assume auto-translate is applied, the same way we refer to Jade Harbor, not Feicui Gangwan.
[B]Hisatsinom
History
I could see it going something like that. So, independant city-states, small wars until 1400, peace treaties are made to stop all-out war. Tensions grow as some states begin to act against the treaty, dissatisfied with their lack of a voice. They decide they need a singular leader, but nobody will agree to let anyone else hold the seat. they're on the edge of war, then they agree to create a new city. Marriages, agreements, everyone sends a few craftsmen to help build the city, and a few families to settle it. The new city elects a leader, and he becomes the head of the council. Initially, he's just leader in name, but as his city grows more and more populous and powerful, he becomes a much more powerful leader.
Now, here's a question: Why doesn't this group join the cahokian league? Is it just pride? Are they simply that independant? Do they fight the cahokian league?
Spiders
The swarm idea does sound the more plausible of the two. Now, another question. Is this ability specific to the hisatsinom, or are they just more focused on it than other groups? Could anyone with a Summon Swarm spell use the spiders to make ropes? Is it a spell on its own? Or can you only do it with a particular prestige class?
Wind
I get the monolith was supposed to use the fog, but I'm saying I don't think the fog's a valid way of doin' it. I mean, even modern science struggles to create structures that can harness fog into significant amounts of drinkable water, and they use fancy devices that air flows through, with hydrophobic and hydrophilic materials. A simple fog pushed against a solid stone surface is an extremely inefficient way to do it. Even if they had a system to channel all the fog-water into a single reservoir with no loss along the route, it would still only be gathering a tiny fraction of the fog, as 90% of it would never hit the surface, being held back by the compression of the air that does hit it.
I could see the monolith doing the wind wall, though. That would be the sort of thing you'd want a magic item to do, rather than having a caster with variable strength do it.
I think directing a tornado is still a bit much. Even control weather, a 7th level spell, doesn't let you do that. You'd need a near-epic caster to do it, and what would you do with it? What would they 'farm' from the tornadoes? Wind energy? Some sort of spirit? Elemental air? I mean, I can't think of anything worth the risk of putting an epic caster in the path of a tornado.
Grand Canyon
I did a little research on this one. While the top parts are as much as 18 miles apart, there's a much narrower inner canyon, which could be close enough to bridge with the spiderweb bridges in places. It would still be quite a gap, hundreds of feet. Researching the inca bridges, says the most impressive one was 148 feet or so. Now, spiderweb bridges could probably span further than that, but there's the issue of repair. I think the main ropes could just be maintained by a once- or twice-annual casting of the spider-control thing to make them reinforce it. But they would have to replace the wooden sections that are walked on, which would probably be quite dangerous. Maybe it could be done in concert with the spider-reinforcement, as I believe the wooden slats would have to be webbed into the structure, rather than just slid into holes in the web-rope.
We should really try to find an actual spot in the grand canyon where we would place the city. I'd LOVE to be able to get some artwork of it sometime. Plus, there are certain features that would dramatically alter the way the city works. What if one is on a southern edge? That half of the city would never get any sun exposure. The width of the valley would also have an impact on just how separate the two sides are.
Another point: Where do the farms go?
Merlinic Oath
-I don't know about warfare, though. I mean, their whole thing is about using their spellcasting to serve the people, and fighting for one of the nobles and using their magic to wipe out an army that consists of mostly drafted commoners would probably run counter to that.
-You bring up a point about laws. This has potential. Is assault with magic a more serious crime than regular assault? Is a magic a weapon, or is it it's own, worse category? Are wizards even under common law, or are their crimes to be handled by a merlinic council of some sort?
The Knights are useful, because right now the only Church-aligned group is the Inquisition, which is a difficult option for heroic players.
Anyway, as I imagine it. The Knights, and their oath to defend Christendom, predates the Reformation, and the Knights themselves have persevered over schisms and conflicting popes. As the Knights see it, while they are Catholics themselves, their oath applies equally to Catholics and Protestants. They don't wage war on Protestant nations, and will intervene to protect them from outside threats if need be. They serve the Papal State, but they see themselves as servants of God above all else.
Also, in the New World, they have a strict, and well-known policy of Non Aggression when it comes to established powers. They are here to serve the will of the almighty, not fight the wars of men. They will intervene to defend Christians or preserve holy relics, but they are defenders, not crusaders. They'll gladly do battle with pirates, bandits, and monsters, but they do not seek conflict with legitimate powers, no matter the faiths involved. As they see it, declaring war against the Cahokians, or the Fusangese, or the Tuniit, on issues of faith alone would put far too many people in danger. The Knights see their role as defensive, they will not join in anything they see as an act of conquest or aggression. So, while they WOULD intervene to defend Spanish settlements from Aztec attacks, they would NOT join the conquistadores in their attempts to take Aztec cities. However, they WOULD attack the Aztecs in order to rescue christian prisoners, or if they felt a pre-emptive strike was their best option for eliminating the threat.
Generally, their policy is that the best way to protect their charges (all Christians) is to avoid war when possible. Only Active threats (Pirates, Monsters, Bandits, Hostile armies) are their targets.
They don't start wars, but they DO end them.
Of course, this policy has only furthered the divide between the Knights and the Inquisition. The Knights see the Inquisition as turning Christians against each other in order to gain power. The Inquisition sees the Knights as neglecting their duties by tolerating heathens and heretics in order to keep their own hands clean.
This policy is well known throughout the new world, and generally respected. I group of far-flung Knights could ride up to a Cahokian Mound, or a Tuniit Lodge, and not worry about being treated like an invasion force.
The purpose of this is so that a PC Knight dosn't have to worry about being attacked as they wander the New World.
Sir Augusta
2014-05-13, 10:32 PM
On Phoenixes, yeah, that'll work. Maybe the Knights of Malta would be more inclined to work with them, though still rarely.
On the subject of the Knights of Malta, everything put forth sounds great, especially the Maltese falcon animal companion and their primary role as diplomats rather than crusaders. Would be the type of character I'm naturally drawn to. It'll be nice to have some Church good guys.
With the Pueblo-dwellers, the Grand Canyon would work, but I think it would be really cool to have one tribe that vanished. Someone mentioned abandoned observatories in the Rockies, which would be an awesome place to explore.
As for the names of the land, I agree with the 'Vespuccia is the continent, and Columbia is the European-settled coastline' notion.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-14, 07:13 AM
Knights Hospitaller
Man, I really like all the stuff that comes out of these guys. They're just a surprisingly cool group. Well, they are in this version.
I do like the idea that the knights would be relatively welcomed, though I have to say I don't think they could go QUITE everywhere and expect to be treated warmly. I don't think the mexica would be overly fond of them, and cahokia would probably let them in like they would any other trading group. I don't think they would have had enough time to really make an impression on the fusangren, though, at least not much further north than San Diego. They've only really been in the seas for a hundred years or so, a much of that was trying to cement their presence in the Caribbean.
I'm quite fond of the maltese falcon idea. I don't know what it would do, other than just being a fancy familiar, but it seems like it has a lot of potential! Apparently they were peregrine falcons, or rather, a subspecies thereof.
I wouldn't say they're primarily diplomats, though. They seem to be taking on the role of defender more than diplomat. though, they probably have a fair number of those, too.
Hisatsinom
I beleive we can make the one tribe that vanished idea work. Plus, with a living culture still around, we have somebody who would actually be a ready-made quest giver. Instead of just poking around out of curiosity, now you're checking it out on the request of the local chief.
Now, to unprompted topics:
Columbia
Since the conversation RE: fusang has more or less dried up for the moment, I'm willing to call it provisionally done and move on to Columbia as the official topic, since that seems to be where the conversation is headed anywho.
So, we have a few steps. For one, identify the major players. We've gotta have England, France, and Spain. Portugal, too, though their holdings took a beating after getting expelled from Brasilia. The papal states have a presence, either through the knights or their own, official holdings. Then who were the two new suggested peoples? Dutch and Sweden? Starting to look a bit crowded, here... That's seven countries with various holdings in the new world, even if some of them are rather small.
Races
Well, with the little folk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348181-Little-Folk-Crossroads-Tiny-Fey-Race) done (Just gonna leave that link there...), I'm turning my attention to the yilong and the tonal. I think I have a pretty solid concept for the tonal, but it may need a little extra to sweeten the pot a bit. Anyone got ideas? And I'm still not certain that people like the yilong idea in the first place.
Sir Augusta
2014-05-14, 10:11 AM
Oh, I just looked at what. I'd typed. I meant to say that the Maltese Knights are not as aggressive as other groups, but I didn't mean to say they're primarily diplomats. I agree that they are mostly defenders.
As for the Yilong, the dragon-descended people, I actually like the idea of a character who slowly develops draconic characteristics.
Sir Augusta
2014-05-14, 10:23 AM
As for Columbia, Portugal and the Papal States could have only a few islands, with nothing on the mainland. Maybe Portugal would focus on coastal African and Indonesian colonies instead. Spain would have Cuba, Hispaniola, Puerto Rico and Florida, and some more islands. France would have Quebec and (kind of) New Orleans, while England would have most everything in between Florida and Quebec. The Dutch would have just NYC (NAC), and iirc New Sweden was a small colony somewhere near the Maryland-Virginia border. I think it'd be cool if we kept it small, maybe one small city and a handful of towns and villages.
On a related note, Maryland might have a stronger Church presence, though it would still probably be British.
As for the vanished tribe, you could have the other tribes request that the players investigate their "star-gazing neighbors" who disappeared several decades (or even centuries) ago.
I think the French also have Haiti, and we can give the Spanish some mainland colonies in South Vesspuccia (perhaps competing with the portugese)
Palanan
2014-05-14, 12:58 PM
Without Brazil, the Portuguese would focus on their long string of trading posts along the coast of Africa, leading to their trade and possessions further to the East. They would certainly have an interest in trading with the Columbian colonies, but likely no possessions on the Vespuccian mainland.
Spain, on the other hand, might well hold territory from today's Miami up through Charleston or beyond, which they would refer to as La Florida. The Spanish were extremely aggressive about their territorial rights along the Atlantic Seaboard, and without dominance of Mesoamerica they would likely cling to as much of La Florida as possible, mainly from stubborn pride and a refusal to relinquish their last mainland holdings in the New World.
It's worth mentioning that in the late 1580s, the Spanish had every intention of establishing a fortress on the southern mouth of the Chesapeake and claiming the entirety of the Bahia de Santa Maria for themselves. They had already explored much of the Chesapeake well before that time (many years before John Smith and the Jamestown colonists) and it was only the disaster of the Armada in 1588 that changed their plans. If the Armada never sailed in this timeline, then the Spanish might well have gone through with their plans to fortify the mouth of the Chesapeake, preventing the establishment of the Jamestown colony and establishing their own control over the Chesapeake instead.
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That could explain why New Amsterdam is still Dutch.
Fears of Spanish aggression cause the English and the Dutch to sign a non-aggression (and perhaps even Mutual Defense) pact in the New World.
In the Real World, the French and Indian war cost the English greatly, requiring them to take out massive loans from the Dutch.
Perhaps in Crossroads, the agreement is that if the Spanish make a play for the Columbian colonies, the Dutch will finance the English war effort. In exchange, the Dutch get to hold onto New Amsterdam, and perhaps even get around some English taxes and embargos.
In terms of Spanish holdings, I think we can give them an expanded hold in La Florida up to Charleston, with eyes on the Columbian colonies, and their profitable Tobacco fields, to the north. This means giving the Spanish two of the 13 colonies. However, I don't want to wipe out the English presence in the region.
Mind you, just because the Spanish didn't take Mexico, does not mean they were not trying. They've been plenty focused on the ongoing wars with the Aztecs (Especially if the Inquisition was egging them on to wage war against the arcane-magic using, human sacrificing, guided-by-undead-kings super-heathen Aztecs).
Edit:
Or, here's another idea.
So, England and the Netherlands were allies in the War of Spanish Succession.
What if the English DID take over New York back in 1664, their ships sailed into the harbor, Peter Stuyvesant surrendered, ect ect.
However, in the War of Spanish Succession, the Spanish launched an attack on the English colonies in Columbia (this is referred to as "Queen Anne's War", even though it's part of the War of Spanish Succession). The Spanish wanted more mainland presence, and with the War on, they saw the opportunity to seize the cities and tobacco plantations of Columbia for King Philip. In Crossroads, this meant the Spanish and French forces were both more numerous and more aggressive. Especially since the Natives are more powerful here, the French would not only be attacking from Quebec, they could be bringing in native mercenaries and allies to assault the English colonies.
The English needed money to raise troops and ships in the New World, hire Mercenaries, bribe Native tribes away from the French, ect ect.
They turn to the Dutch, who are already bearing the brunt of the war in Europe, who agree to give the English the support they need in exchange for New Netherlands, Now New York, Now New Netherlands again. With the additional support, the English are able to hold onto their colonies. While under Dutch Control, New Amsterdam is still culturally an English colony in many ways, and has close cultural and economic ties to the other English Colonies.
Relevant Wikipedia Articles
Queen Anne's War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Anne%27s_War)
War of Spanish Succession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession#France_on_the_brink)
Edit Edit: Alternatively, rather than selling New Amsterdam back to the Dutch, the English GIVE it to them, thus giving the Dutch a stake in Columbia, motivating them to get involved in Queen Anne's War.
Palanan
2014-05-14, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by BRC
That could explain why New Amsterdam is still Dutch.
Fears of Spanish aggression cause the English and the Dutch to sign a non-aggression (and perhaps even Mutual Defense) pact in the New World.
I like this in theory, but it would have been a tough political sell on both sides, since there were three Anglo-Dutch wars fought in the late 1600s which had bitter repercussions. If the Spanish were enough of a threat, however, pragmatism and nose-holding would have overcome lingering hatreds.
Originally Posted by BRC
In the Real World, the French and Indian war cost the English greatly, requiring them to take out massive loans from the Dutch.
How far into this period is the Crossroads timeline? I had the impression the "present day" of Crossroads was set at 1750, which would be a little too early for the Seven Years' War.
Speaking of which, there's another point to be made about the Dutch and the English. If the Dutch retain unbroken control of Manhattan and the New Netherland colony, then the extension of their trading partnership with the Iroquois allows the latter to remain much stronger than they would have been historically, after the English displaced the Dutch. Continuing the Dutch presence gives the Iroquois Confederacy a much firmer position--and a better-armed cadre of warriors--than they otherwise would have had.
Originally Posted by BRC
Or, here's another idea....
Possible, but these events would be too complex to assume everything would work out quite in that way. Also, a period of English control would have broken some of the more freethinking aspects of the New Netherland colony, which might not readily return.
To me, it seems simpler and easier for the Dutch to have retained control of New Netherland throughout.
Originally Posted by BRC
In terms of Spanish holdings, I think we can give them an expanded hold in La Florida up to Charleston, with eyes on the Columbian colonies, and their profitable Tobacco fields, to the north. This means giving the Spanish two of the 13 colonies. However, I don't want to wipe out the English presence in the region.
This sounds good, but I would suggest a pocket of Spanish control around the Chesapeake, which is being pressured by Columbian expansion.
It depends on whether the Spanish were able to beat the English to the Chesapeake in the late 1580s. If they did, then the Jamestown settlement never would have happened--and Jamestown is key, because it gives the English a presence in the southern Mid-Atlantic which they otherwise wouldn't have had. No Jamestown, no southern Virginia colony, and the Spanish are able to control shipping in and out of the Chesapeake, which as the Bahia de Santa Maria remains their pond. They would also have a presence in the barrier islands of the Outer Banks, and Pamlico and Albemarle Sounds to landward.
Further south of this, the English might still have planted Charleston, which would be on the northern border of Spanish La Florida, and would give the English a foothold along the southern Atlantic coast, probably reaching up to modern Cape Fear or so. Thus the Spanish Chesapeake would be feeling squeezed from the English presence from both the north and south--but the Spanish have twin fortresses on Cape Henry and Cape Charles, and they won't be dislodged too easily.
I like this in theory, but it would have been a tough political sell on both sides, since there were three Anglo-Dutch wars fought in the late 1600s which had bitter repercussions. If the Spanish were enough of a threat, however, pragmatism and nose-holding would have overcome lingering hatreds.
How far into this period is the Crossroads timeline? I had the impression the "present day" of Crossroads was set at 1750, which would be a little too early for the Seven Years' War.
My thought was that this was a pre-emptive alliance. Not in response to any particular war, but in the hopes that the English could get the Dutch to bankroll an inevitable future war in Columbia.
Speaking of which, there's another point to be made about the Dutch and the English. If the Dutch retain unbroken control of Manhattan and the New Netherland colony, then the extension of their trading partnership with the Iroquois allows the latter to remain much stronger than they would have been historically, after the English displaced the Dutch. Continuing the Dutch presence gives the Iroquois Confederacy a much firmer position--and a better-armed cadre of warriors--than they otherwise would have had.
if we want to make the Iroqouis bigger players in Columbia, this could be a good idea.
Possible, but these events would be too complex to assume everything would work out quite in that way. Also, a period of English control would have broken some of the more freethinking aspects of the New Netherland colony, which might not readily return.
To me, it seems simpler and easier for the Dutch to have retained control of New Netherland throughout.
How so?
We've already laid the groundwork for a stronger Spanish presence in La Florida, why not have that lead to an escalation of Queen Anne's War.
Sure, handing over New York would have been a big deal, but if the English were desperate enough they might have done it.
Also, having New Netherlands only recently (well, thirty years ago) be returned to Dutch control means change and social upheaval, which make a more interesting setting.
This sounds good, but I would suggest a pocket of Spanish control around the Chesapeake, which is being pressured by Columbian expansion.
It depends on whether the Spanish were able to beat the English to the Chesapeake in the late 1580s. If they did, then the Jamestown settlement never would have happened--and Jamestown is key, because it gives the English a presence in the southern Mid-Atlantic which they otherwise wouldn't have had. No Jamestown, no southern Virginia colony, and the Spanish are able to control shipping in and out of the Chesapeake, which as the Bahia de Santa Maria remains their pond. They would also have a presence in the barrier islands of the Outer Banks, and Pamlico and Albemarle Sounds to landward.
Further south of this, the English might still have planted Charleston, which would be on the northern border of Spanish La Florida, and would give the English a foothold along the southern Atlantic coast, probably reaching up to modern Cape Fear or so. Thus the Spanish Chesapeake would be feeling squeezed from the English presence from both the north and south--but the Spanish have twin fortresses on Cape Henry and Cape Charles, and they won't be dislodged too easily.
Eh, the Chesapeake is pretty far north.
Let's not scramble the part of the world the average (American) player is going to be most familiar with too much by undoing Jamestown and Boston. I would prefer to keep the various holdings contiguous.
Steckie
2014-05-14, 02:30 PM
Columbian nations
Here's what i propose:
Portugal: i agree with Palanan, we could probably go without Portugal.
France: their business is more in Tuniitaq and Nouveau Orléans, i'd say their most Southern posession near the East Coast is Acadia. And some holdings on the St Lawrence river
Sweden: the peninsula where the mouth of the Delaware river is (whatever it's called) seems like a good spot for them. I'd really like to keep Sweden in the setting if we can find a way to fit them in.
Papal States: i'd say the Papal States are a good candidate to gobble up some of the territory that historically belonged to the English. Why not give them both Carolinas and parts of Georgia.
Spain: their borders go a bit north until they meet the Papal State colonies. The border is roughly around Charleston like BRC said. I'd put Atlanta in Papal territory.
Netherlands: Nieuw Amsterdam and surrounding area's.
England: Anything north of Nieuw Amsterdam until they border the French. And more territory inland than the Dutch i suppose.
Edit:
One more thing about the Papal States: it's probably best not to give them the whole of Italy, that would disturb the political balance a lot. Especially northern Italy.
Here's what i propose: when the French and Aragonese king fight over the Kingdom of Naples in the 1490's, the Pope intervenes. Ferdinand 2 of Aragon is the one that sends out Columbus. And he desperatly needs spellcasters because he wants to colonise the islands they just discovered and somehow the magic users in this new continent are very powerfull. And there's a LOT of them.
The pope sends many of his spellcasters and in return he fights the French until the French king gives up his claim on the throne of Naples. The French king only agrees if the pope will rule the kingdom of Naples and not Ferdinand. They both hate to give Naples to the other one more than they hate giving it to the pope, so they both reluctantly agree.
Bolstered by the new territory and population the Papal States becomes more powerfull in the following years.
Eventually they take over large parts of Italy. They annex several city states: Urbino, Siena, Tuscany, Pisa, Modena, Ferrara, Mantua and some of the smaller ones. Milan, Genua, Savoy and Venice are able to remain independant. Although Genua loses Corsica.
The Papal States later purchases Sardinia and Sicily from Spain in return for spellcasters, Spain needs them to fight the Triple Alliance in several wars.
Hisatsinom
History
The question is why would they join the Cahokian League? They benefit a lot more from being on the point between three powerfull nations. There's a lot of trade flowing through their territory. They are city living people while the people on the plains are horse riding nomads. Cahokia itself is too far away for them (they're closer to Fusang).
There could be other reasons as well. Religion perhaps.
Spiders
How about a species of spiders native to the pueblo people area?
Or sacred spiders, so the silk is sacred as well. Nobody is allowed to trade the silk, it would be a grave offense.
Wind
But....but....Storm Chasers.
Alright i understand your worries and you're right. Tornado chasing would have been awesome.
Lyndworm
2014-05-14, 06:47 PM
Okeydoke, let me preface this by saying that I love what you fellows are doing here. I'm impressed with your level of detail and enthralled with how you've managed to bring this all together. I've been watching from the sidelines for a while now, but this is the first time I've felt like I had anything constructive to add.
On Giants in Historical America:
Back here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?345327-Crossroads-II-I-m-on-a-Mammoth&p=17421186&viewfull=1#post17421186) on the second page, there was mention of generalizing the Tuunitaq giants/giant-descended, as these sorts or myths are found all over the Americas, and, indeed, all over the world (Europe has a lot of great giant stories, especially the Norse, but Africa and Asia have their fair share). If giants are to be included in the setting at all, then I support this idea. It only makes sense for there to be multiple varieties of giants, just as there are multiple varieties of human (through the absolutely brilliant addition of cultures) and even multiple varieties of the little folk!
Virtually every American mythology that survives today has some mention of a giant somewhere, as you'd probably expect. There's no consensus in regards to appearance or behavior: some are fair and some are twisted, some are brutes and some are tricksters, some are helpful and some are harmful. A few seem to be specific individuals while others are specified as being from a whole race of giants. Unfortunately, information on aboriginal cultures is hard to come by: so much has been lost. I'm afraid I couldn't find much more of any relevance.
The Aztec have the Quinametzin, a race of builders (sometimes equated with the Toltec) who came before and founded great cities, including Tenochtitlan. They were punished/killed because they didn't show proper respect to the gods.
The Cherokee have Nunhyunuwi, an individual and man-eater, sometimes said to be made of/from stone.
The Coos supposedly have Gedegwsets, though I learned not much else. I could find no specific mention of a race or individual by that name. I found tales of "big/tall men" who had underground homes and made bone knives. They were feared by the Cs,oos, who eventually drove them into the ocean on two rafts; one floated North and the other South, never to be seen again.
The Iroquois have Dehotgohsgayeh, an individual with an ugly, split face: one half is black and the other red. He lives in the darkness of the earth and forests and only leaves at night. Despite his appearance, this giant is cheerful and protects humans from danger.
The Kwakwaka'wakw have Dzoo-Noo-Qua, a giantess who lived deep in the forest, kept children as slaves, and ate them when she got hungry. Interestingly, she was invisible because she hid her soul under the floorboards, and was only killed when a stray arrow pierced it by accident.
The Navajo have Yeitso, an evil, nearly invulnerable giant who was slain by the hero Twins of Navajo lore. His blood made a landmark as it poured from his body, and he wore either flint armor or stone knives for clothing.
The Malaseet have Kiwahkw, a race of giants who were once corpses and have been brought to life by witches. They would speak with humans before eating them, and became more powerful after eating two humans. They were defeated by a hero (Glooscap) who made the waters rise and turned the giants into fish.
The Netslik have Inugpasugssuk (as you probably know), a popular folk hero who adopted a human son. The two went on many an adventure, often including oth giants (who were not usually as kind as Inugpasugssuk).
The Paiute have the Si-Te-Cah (probably the best-known American giants), tall, red-haired cannibals who lived on rafts in a lake so that the Paiute could not get to them. While at war, the last remaining giants hid in a cave and refused to exit. The Paiute stacked brysh at the entrance and burned the giants alive, wiping them out. This may have been inspired by the memory of a competing tribe of humans, and is allegedly evidenced by 6'6 tall, red-haired mummies found in a cave in 1911; further excavation in 1924 is said to have uncovered human remains showing signs of cannibalism.
The Pequot have Chahnameed, an amusing and inappropriate protagonist with a habit of tricking people for fun and profit (his name translates to "Big Eater;" he earned this after cheating his way through an eating contest).
I'm sure that there are many other examples, but this shows a deep legend over a wide area. I tried to weed out the more god-like giants, and those that are commonly compared to bigfoot/sasquatch.
On the Knights of Malta:
In general, I like the feel of the Catholic church in this setting. That said, I love the addition of the alt-history Knights Hospitaller; without them, I'm afraid the church will seem to be a very dark, almost malevolent force in the New World. It's important, I think, for each organization to be sympathetic and the Knights go a long way towards that.
I like the idea of a Maltese falcon companion for the Knights, so I humbly point you towards the Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, p200). It's a Paladin-oriented PrC that's pretty heavily geared for fighting the undead, but also receives a "Raven Harrier" and 9/10 divine casting. It's very similar to having a Celestial raven as a familiar, but it gains special abilities that allow it to debuff enemies, channel (not share or deliver, channel) spells, and the Knight can see through its eyes at high level.
I should note that I'm only casually familiar with Pathfinder, so please ignore the last paragraph if it's unhelpful.
On the Grand Canyon Hisatsinom:
I've been fascinated with cliff-dwelling Hisatsinom from the moment I learned of them, oh so long ago. I heartily approve of their inclusion, I like the idea of the spider-silk suspension bridges, and I, too, prefer spider swarms to giant spiders. I adore the connection to Grandmother Spider that this brings to mind, and (since she put the stars in the sky), it only makes sense for the Hisatsinom to admire the stars. However, I did not bring this up solely to congratulate you on your good taste.
In doing a little research, I've found that the ancient Pueblo actually lived startlingly close to the Grand canyon. There are Hisatsinom-style granaries built into Nankoweap Canyon! (Nankoweap is a side-canyon of the Grand Canyon). According to the National Park Service, there are around 2,000 known ancestral Pueblo sites within Grand Canyon National Park boundaries. As far as I can tell, no peoples ever lived inside the Grand Canyon proper, but I, for one, was surprised to learn how many congregated around it.
I also agree with Steckie in that the Hisatsinom have little reason to join Cahokia. Their lifestyles are completely different, and so, too, might be their goals. If Ongtupqa City is running strong by the time the Hisatsinom make contact with Cahokia, I don't see much reason for them to consider more than a token alliance.
I realize that this is only reiteration and wonderment, but I wanted to mention my support while it was relevant.:smallredface:
I don't want to overcomplicate the political map of Columbia. I think the English, Spanish, and Dutch are enough players for the region without adding in random Swedish and papal colonies unless we have a really good reason for them to be there.
Sir Augusta
2014-05-14, 09:43 PM
I agree that there should not be Papal colonies on the mainland, and I think we should keep most of the Atlantic Coast in British hands, just so players will be able to connect with the colonies. New Sweden was an actual colony, thought we could keep the "British taking it over" thing from real life. New Amsterdam being the only non-British colony there would be good though.
As for Spain, just give them up into central Georgia at most. After all, they fought a devestating war against the Aztecs, and are still focused on defending their holdings in Panama from frequent attacks.
France should have Haiti, and Rome should have much of Italy with only a few island colonies in the Carribean. Most of the Carribean should be under Spanish control.
Aux-Ash
2014-05-15, 12:21 AM
Sorry I haven't answered for a bit.
Regarding the colonies:
I agree with the notions that we shouldn't have any colonies in north america except for the big five (England, France, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands). New Sweden was a thing yeah, but it was underfunded, practically died out twice and was swallowed up by the dutch somewhere between 1650 and 1670.
The papal state is even less likely. Especially since it would have to be incredibly recent, considering the treaty of tordesadillas (and if the pope isn't upholding an agreement a previous pope established then they're really undermining themselves).
Sir Augusta
2014-05-15, 08:49 AM
Ok so I guess no Portugal (cause the Brasilia colony was forced into the sea) or Sweden or the Papal States on the mainland, just France in the North, Spain in the South (plus New Orleans) and the English in between, with only New Amsterdam city in Dutch hands. England could have taken the land around NAC from the Dutch, but been unable to take the city proper, for whatever reason.
Spain has most of the Carribean, but the British have Bermuda, the French have Haiti, and Rome has a few small islands in the east. We need some Papal colonies for the KoM, and with a stronger Church in this alt-history, it is probable that they would have a few islands.
I think we could have one small island be under Portugese control, but with most of their attention towards their colonies in Africa and Asia. It might be nice to give them a small presence. Maybe one or a few of the islands off the northern coast of Brasilia, cause they're small and inconsequential, for the most part.
Oh, and Spain also has Panama, right? Though that falls more under Aztlan than Columbia.
Sound good?
TheWombatOfDoom
2014-05-15, 08:57 AM
I wonder if we could throw Germany into the mix in the Pennsylvania region, and possibly have Philadelphia. There was a massive amount of Germans that emigrated to the area around 1683, and Palatines in 1723, so there's a large group in the region. What if instead of settling, they began carving out a new country for themselves?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch
Sir Augusta
2014-05-15, 09:15 AM
Well they wouldn't be a German colony, as Germany is still a bunch of states that are, in a way, still recovering from the Thirty Years' War (if that happened in this). Maybe we could have the start of an independence movement of farmers, but that wouldn't get far, at least without PC help ;)
If the PA Dutch tried to revolt, it would probably end up like the Boers- they'd be defeated by the British and driven west into the Appalachain Mountains. Though I'd leave that as a plot hook for the players to get involved with: PA farmers complaining about their treatment by the British, with some wanting to head west and some wanting to fight.
If we really want the Papal State involved in Columbia, I had an idea where the Knights have taken over Charleston after it was almost leveled during Queen Anne's War when a group of Scarred Monks and Merlinic Wizards, both unused to the more powerful magic of the New World, unleashed powerful magic, angering some Embermice in the process (Causing them to Swarm).
Since the city is at the border of English and Spanish territories, the Knights captured it to stop the two sides fighting over it.
Although personally I think it would be better to have the Knights with isolated Forts and Enclaves, rather than holding territory. (Holding territory means Politics, and the Knights try to hold themselves above that)
Maybe there's a Hospitallier Enclave on Rhode Island (History of religious tolerance would make them more likely than their puritan neighbors to allow a bunch of heavily armed Catholics to set up shop).
Hrmmm
Hospitallier Enclaves
The Enclaves of the Knights of Malta are scattered around Europe, and European colonies in the new world, with some existing as small, isolated forts in Tunnitaq or the Cahokian League.
. The Enclaves are considered extraterritorial, usually purchased or leased from the local governments.
The Enclaves serve as barracks and training grounds and listening posts. Depending on the size of the Enclave, there can be as few as three Knights in residence (Although, sometimes tragedy strikes isolated wilderness Enclaves, meaning that a single Knight may be in residence until more can be sent). Their main purpose is to provide food, shelter, support, and intelligence to any Knights traveling the world, as well as using trained Messenger Falcons to keep the rest of the order informed about local events.
While the traditional image of an Enclave is a keep,fortress or Castle, they vary in form and size, especially in the New World. While some larger Enclaves are forts, others could be mistaken for simple farms or inns if one did not notice the Cross of St. John flying proudly over the house. Others are small villages built around a central keep, with civillians living under the Knight's rule and protection.
While most of the larger Enclaves have walls, it is rare to see a fortified Enclave equipped with Cannons. Out in the wilderness, where opprotunistic raids from local natives are a threat you may see cannons, same with areas where the Knights have enough influence with the local government (or solidly Knight-controlled islands in the Caribbean). However, mounting cannons in the walls is usually seen as too provocative a move, and so Knightly enclaves in places like Havanna go without anything bigger than a musket.
AtlanteanTroll
2014-05-15, 12:33 PM
Just a general question of sorts, how well do you think this world would play with E6?
Steckie
2014-05-15, 02:06 PM
Hospitaller Enclaves
They kinda sound like the 'Pathfinder Lodges' from Golarion.
And i'd like the Knights to be limited to their islands and their reputation. Meaning they are only safe on their Island fortresses and in place where they are protected by their reputation.
Besides, maintaining all those enclaves seems awfully expensive for a military order.
Columbian nations
Alright, so the consensus is that Sweden and the Papal State are out of mainland Vespuccia. What we have left is:
Spain: Florida and up the coast to Charleston (wich needs a new name).
France: North part of the coast, mostly historical stuff and mostly in the Tuniitaq area. I'd give them Newfoundland as well (historically it's English) to compensate for the smaller Louisiana.
Netherlands: I'd give them a bit more than just Nieuw Amsterdam. They need room to farm etc. And if they're a player on the east coast i'd like them to be able to reach the Appalachians. That brings them into contact with the 'wild' parts of the continent.
English: Everything else.
Question: The Appalachians. Are they owned or claimed by somebody? Or are they a wild area? Or perhaps even extremely dangerous and difficult to cross? Perhaps a few safe mountain passes manned by the Knights Hospitaller?
Hisatsinom
I've been looking into the Grand Canyon and i fear it's going to be difficult to create a city there. Especially one with the spider silk bridges crossing the canyon.
But i may have an alternative.
First a little bit of explanation. Spiders are going to be very important in Hisatsinom culture and religion. Historically Spider Grandmother (or Spider Woman, but we shouldn't use that name, it resembles a certain comicbook hero) was very important in Hopi religion.
Combine this with the spider silk and you'll soon get a culture that loves spiders. And spider art and things like that. It's nice to have a good spider 'godess', the Drow and Lolth are overused.
So why not have a special species of spiders live in the Grand Canyon area. Either animals or magical beasts.
The Hisatsinom farm the silk of these spiders, but they can't go live in the Grand Canyon for fear of disturbing the spiders. This would both upset their godess and could cut into the profits they get from selling the ropes.
So they leave the canyon alone save for a few holy sites and temporary villages for the silk farmers.
The capital of the Hisatsinom City States is on another spot. The Nexus of the local Spiral. The city founded by the combined city states on a special place.
The place i found is apparently one of the most photographed places of the Colorado River. It's a little bit south of Lake Powell.
The name is Horseshoe Bend.
What i've tried to find is a place that i could roughly shape like a spider. A city resembling a giant spider would quickly become the religious center, especially if it's already politically important.
Here's a rough sketch of what i have in mind. Plus, it's a picture of Horseshoe Bend so you get an idea of what i'm talking about.
http://i58.tinypic.com/33p7x8i.jpg
"enclaves" may be the wrong word, but I could see Knight Lodges or Outposts being scattered around. Leaning less towards Fortresses, and more towards a house or farm.
Outpost probably works best, harkening back to their old days guarding pilgrims in the holy land.
Roughly the size of a small farm (and may very well include a field or two to grow crops on), they would have a small Armory, a Falcon Roost, a house, maybe a small chapel. A few Knights, either too old for regular service or novices who keep an ear to the ground and lend aid to any Knights passing through, using Falcons to keep the rest of the order informed.
In Cities it would just be a house, with a chapel and armory. Someplace for traveling Knights to stop in and receive Aid.
A traveling Knight trying to get back to New Malta from Boston, for example, could stop in at the Outpost for assistance. The Knight at the outpost would be keeping an eye on the harbor, and local link activity, and so could introduce the Knight to a ship captain heading that way.
Or, a Knight trying to retrieve some relic from a bandit that had gone to ground in the Appalachian mountains could stop by a Lodge, where the resident Knights would lend them food and survival equipment, put them in touch with local guides, pass on any relevant news, ect.
Sir Augusta
2014-05-15, 04:02 PM
I like the lodge idea, but we should keep them small, and not too common. Have one in each major city, and then a few scattered around the wilderness, with no more than fifty in Vespuccia (would that work? Maybe 75-100? But that's a lot of knights, on a newly-settled continent).
I think the Appalachain Mts should be wilderness, as even today they aren't really that populated of developed.
I guess the Dutch should have land around the city for farming, but it wouldn't be realistic for them to extend to the Iriquois Confederacy, because they would separate the British colonies, and there is no way Britain would tolerate that.
For Newfoundland, the French can have it, just say they got there first.
I really like the new Hinatsinom city location, and the picture you provided really helps in visualizing.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-15, 07:45 PM
Firstly, welcome to the thread, Lyndworm! Thanks for all your kind words, I'm really glad you've enjoyed what you've seen of the thread so far, and I hope you'll stick around!
Columbia:
*whistle* Whew, this seems to have started quite a bit of debate! I'll go nation-by-nation.
Spain
I think people are accrediting too much power to Spain here. Spain was a huge power in the real world timeline, but a massive amount of their wealth came from plunder grained from the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas, in addition to the silver they pulled out of the ground and their Caribbean plantations. In this world, they were pretty wealthy when they came over, but then there was the disastrous Aztatlan affair, a long, bloody, expensive war with the natives, getting kicked out of South Vespuccia...
After all this, the Spanish are nowhere NEAR as rich in this setting as they are in the real world history. I think they would hold most of the caribbean, at least all the largest islands (Cuba, Haiti/Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Puerto Rico) and a scattering of the smaller ones, Florida, and MAYBE a little north, but I don't think they would have the money to finance a fleet large enough to secure a really significant portion of the eastern seaboard. Their only major income source in the new world is their plantations, and the Fusang trade through panama.
England
England... Well, without doing the research, I think we could say they end up holding most of their real-world holdings, but if there's other groups to add to the eastern seaboard, this would be the group to take it from.
France
The hard part about France is that the period maps claim massive swaths of the new world as french, when they really didn't have all that much in actual control. In this world, I'm thinking we could have them control the shore north of Maine, up until they run into Vinland, then inland along the St Lawrence, lake Ontario, and possibly into lake Erie up to Detroit.
Portugal
I think we could have a few islands near south Vespuccia under Portuguese control, but they would be largely neglected, both by their own crown and by the other European powers. Without the continent, they don't do much good, after all. I think they would either end up refocusing on trading down Africa's coast or they would have a real rage-on to reclaim the continent from the forces that drove them out.
Netherlands
I like the New Amsterdam proposed, but I'm just not certain how much else they would possess. I think we could have them keep New Amsterdam and a couple of mainland town up the Hudson. Maybe they lost some of the more inland lands like Albany, but they should have enough land to be able to supply themselves with food for the city and have something inland enough to depart from if they want to trade with the Iroquois or the Cahokians.
Sweden
I think we could safely drop these guys. They only had that one little area, after all. Even though they don't officially hold territory anymore, that wouldn't mean the swedish aren't going to be trading or settling in the new world. I mean, they don't normally evacuate all the citizens of an area if the land is traded over peacefully.
Papal State
I'll agree the papal state probably shouldn't hold any main-land Vespuccia. However, I will say they probably would hold most/all of Italy. I mean, in the map I found they had most of northern Italy in 1700, and with the help of the Knights of Malta and a great deal more wealth, they probably could have spread far enough south to control the entire thing.
Now, a little more generally:
South Vespuccia
Still holding off on getting too deep into the discussion of this one, but I will direct your attention to the first posts, which give you the basic vision I have for the continent. The main point to take away is, there was initially settlement of the eastern/norther coasts by Portugal and Spain, but they were booted out of the continent by biomancers, and it's now more-or-less unapproachable. Nobody has settlements anymore, nobody has colonies anymore, nobody has any presence there at all, or at least none they can reach/contact.
Supernatural Aspects
An important thing to keep in mind is the supernatural aspects of the new world. There's more at play than just the usual military and monetary forces. Mystical power plays a role, too. While divine magic remains just as powerful all around the world, arcane magic is more powerful in the new world. Not massively, but significantly. This would likely give Europe, with their merlinic wizards, a bit more of an edge. While other new world colonies would probably have the same rules regarding magic as they do in the mainland, the fact it's much less densely-populated and more dangerous would likely make rules about turning in/executing arcane casters a bit less... strictly enforced.
Appalacians
The Appalachians are an issue. I think we have the super-dangerous impassable mountain thing covered with the heaven-touching mountains, but these peaks would be a great place for the Cahokian league to establish a line in the sand regarding the expansion of European colonies and European military. While traders and travelers can cross, settlers who try to settle the far side of the peaks are driven out or killed, and any military force that crosses the line will inspire both a violent response and a painful trade sanction.
Disease
I think since we're talking about the colonies, we should solidify what we discussed about the foreign diseases. The loss of native populations was a huge part of what made the new world settle-able in the first place, after all. The colonies wouldn't have done that well if there were 10 times the natives already there. a lot of the first colonies were founded on places where European diseases wiped out villages.
The basic plan is this:
When the Chinese landed, they brought their versions of the old world plagues with them. They swept through native populations, entirely wiping out many tribes. In a panic, healers sent out a call for help all across the continent and gathered healers from all different groups together. As one, they performed an enormous ritual that created a temporary plague barrier across the continental divide. The barrier made it impossible for anyone infected with the disease to cross. The healers then went through everything east of the barrier and magically fortified them against the diseases the Chinese brought. Once they fortified everyone east of the barrier, the healers dropped it and went into the infested areas to try to reduce the losses wherever they could. So when the Europeans arrived and brought new plagues, they knew what to do. They established a new plague-wall at the Appalachians, and began immunizing once more. Then, again, they went through the infected area and tried to minimize the damage. Overall, the central area is as resistant to imported diseases as Europeans and Chinese are, and maintains a historical level of population, but there were heavy losses on both ends. In the west, it was more intense, something like 80%. In the east, thanks to resistances from the first wave, losses were lower than they could have been, but still devastating, something like 50%.
Hisatsinom
History
Well, the Cahokian league doesn't really present itself as a conquering force or even as attempting to gain any kind of control, they just offer special trading privileges at first, in exchange for non-aggression against their other member tribes. Then they start to insinuate themselves into the politics, encouraging the tribes to make certain decisions rather than other ones, nudging them into the direction they desire. The initial hook looks very nice, it's only after you agree to it that they start to push for more and more control. In the Hisatsinom's case, if their main income is from trade, then special trading rates would be even more beneficial.
Spiders
Hmm... a special breed of spiders, you say? I like...
They would have to be a communal species, whether mundane or magical in nature. Normally spiders are independent, and not usually prone to living in large numbers, something that was a bit of a challenge to justify with the swarm idea. Probably wouldn't be swarm creatures, like ants, but they would live in close proximity and work together for some things. They would probably work together to spin together silk from a handful of them into cables strong enough to span the canyons, then build regular webs between these larger lines.
If we're going mundane, there's no reason for them to be particularly large, though they might be slightly bigger than normal spiders to allow them to carry all their silk. If we're going for magical, I'm thinking more like tarantula-sized. They would be friendly toward humans, and likely regarded much like cats, as pest-control and largely independent, but occasionally friendly.
Hmm... We could even combine the two. We could have drone-like spinners that are mindless and just make the webs, and larger 'king' spiders that are magical and friendly toward humans, with the ability to command the spinners. The kind of critters that could be suitable as familiars.
Wind
Well, we can still have the wind-wall defense monoliths. I just don't think it's practical to say there would be 17th-level spellcaster available to play storm-chaser. Though... If there WAS something to be harvested out of tornadoes, what would it be? It's entirely possible they wouldn't be guiding the storms, but they still might have reason to go find them.
I would say, though, tornado alley is pretty far off. It's, like, the eastern part of texas and a bit north, IIRC.
Ongtupqa
Interesting location! I quite like it, though I think there would be some changes. Keep in mind, the top of the wall is 1000 feet up above the river,
The outer edge would probably be entirely residential, with poor folk on the ground in freestanding pueblo buildings, possibly tending small farms along the riverside, where the most fertile soil would be. Above them, in the outer wall, there would be the residences of craftsmen and other middle-class folk. And above them, larger wall-homes for spellcasters, priests, the rich, and the powerful.
The inner hub would be the 'dwontown'. On the ground stretched around the arc, it'd be docks, traders, and warehouses. You then go up the hub wall, where you have the marketplace and the city center, where the people gather for various things like religious ceremonies, performances, and shopping. Then above that, on top of the hub, you have the government center, where the chief and his family live, where the priests gather for private religious ceremonies, and where the visiting chiefs stay, while they're in town.
All the bridges sprout off the main platform. You have two that go out to the forts at the corners, two straight across from each other that connect the main road, two that go out to the upper-class levels, and two that go out to the middle-class level. None of them go down to the ground level. You can go up and down levels via elevators, either mundane ones with spider-silk pulleys and weights, or levitate-powered ones.
There would be some significant earth-moving involved in the construction of the city, but I think it's certainly plausible. No more labor would be involved than the building of the cahokian mounds, though.
Knights of Malta
Oooh, thanks for the suggestion of Knight of the Raven! I'll definitely have to check that out. Even if we can't use it, we can probably reverse-engineer some details for it to work better.
Enclaves/Lodges:
I like the idea here, but I'm not certain if it would work. Traditionally, the knights of malta were supported almost entirely by the donations of various countries, and I don't think they're going to be granting them little slabs of land that would be common enough for them to really be useful for knights roaming the countryside. In the real world they had to resort to semi-legal piracy in order to keep the order funded. The papal state will help the issue, but they wouldn't be wealthy at this point, so they couldn't buy the land, either. Honestly, the order was almost purely naval at the time of the papal state takeover, with very little land presence. I could imagine the knights roaming from church to church while escorting the faithful overland, but I don't think they would have their own lodges. Perhaps new world churches might make some allowances for them, like keeping a chest of weapons and supplies for the knights.
Races
Yilong
You know, now that I look at them again, they could use something more before they get posted. As it stands they're just humans with a little extra bonus and a few elemental abilities. Kinda boring. I really like the feat thing I've done so far, but the basic chassis could use something extra.
Giants
Trust me, I am FULLY aware of how difficult it is to find information on native american myths and legends.
That's a really nice list, though! I'm not even sure if we have all of those on the list o' monsters to make.
But yes, giants can certainly be found all over, I came upon a number of them while I was making trollkin. I like the idea of generalizing them, personally. There's a lot of potential for interesting stories there.
Maybe I should re-evaluate some of the trollkin options, too, while I'm at it. Titan, for example, would be better suited as a giant. Or maybe I'll combine the two... I don't particularly know. I'll have to think on it.
E6
Probably pretty well, honestly. I mean, a lot of NPCs would end up being epic, but it's doable.
Palanan
2014-05-15, 08:40 PM
Whew...this thread moves so fast it's almost overwhelming to keep up.
:smalleek:
Originally Posted by Aux-Ash
I agree with the notions that we shouldn't have any colonies in north america except for the big five (England, France, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands).
I would argue against Portugal having any colonies on the Vespuccian mainland. They'll be strongly focused on their trade with Africa, the Indian subcontinent and the Far East. At best, they might have a few islands around Labrador, and they would probably send fishing fleets to the Grand Banks, since the Portuguese and the British were sharing the Newfoundland fishery since the late 1490s at least.
Otherwise, I just don't see room for them, and establishing a colony in the face of so much competition wouldn't make much sense.
Originally Posted by Sir Augusta
For Newfoundland, the French can have it, just say they got there first.
The shade of John Cabot shakes his fist at you. :smalltongue:
Originally Posted by Steckie
Spain: Florida and up the coast to Charleston ([which] needs a new name).
Originally Posted by Sir Augusta
As for Spain, just give them up into central Georgia at most.
I agree that Charleston would work better as a British holding. The Spanish tried colonizing the area around Parris Island twice, and both colonies ultimately failed, so they would likely step back from that region and hold the line a little south. I can see Charleston as marking the edge of an uneasy border, the last southern outpost of British control before the Spanish territory of La Florida begins.
Which leads me to....
The Spanish in the Chesapeake
In actual history, the Spanish had a significant interest in the Chesapeake from the mid-1500s at least, and I think there's a case to be made for their continued presence there.
Pedro Menéndez de Avilés, a commander of the escort for the Spanish Indies fleet, led the first Spanish exploration of the Chesapeake in 1561. A second mission under Captain Pedro de Coronas made a brief reconnaissance in 1566, and in 1570 a small Jesuit mission was founded near modern Yorktown, to be slaughtered by Indians in early 1571. Menéndez himself, now adelantado of La Florida, made a follow-up visit to the site of the mission in 1572 and exacted revenge for the Jesuits. By this time the Chesapeake was well known to the Spanish, and if not yet settled they certainly viewed it with proprietary concern.
In 1585 Pedro Menéndez Marqués, nephew of Menéndez de Avilés and now adelantado himself, learned that the English were planning to establish a settlement in the vicinity of the Chesapeake. Menéndez Marqués immediately sent a ship to locate the English colony, which had in fact been sited on Roanoke Island. Following heavy setbacks from a raid by Sir Francis Drake--who pillaged the town of Santa Elena for supplies for the Roanoke colony--Menéndez Marqués personally led a reconnaissance to the Chesapeake in 1587, believing this to be where the English had settled. A second mission was dispatched in 1588, making a thorough search of the interior estuaries as far north as the mouth of the Susquehanna.
By this time the Roanoke colony had failed, but the Spanish were deeply concerned that the English had been attempting settlement in the region, and Menéndez Marqués drew up plans to destroy any English settlements on the Chesapeake, and to establish a garrison of three hundred men to secure the entrance to the bay--permanently forestalling any future attempts at English colonization.
But in 1588, with the utter destruction of the Armada, Spanish confidence was badly damaged, maritime supplies and funding were scarce, and Menéndez Marqués was reassigned to protecting the silver fleet from Havana. The English victory over the Armada had the indirect effect of preventing that Spanish garrison from being established, leaving the way open for the Jamestown fleet nine years later.
What I'm Suggesting
If, as I gather, the Spanish Armada never sailed in the Crossroads timeline, then it's very likely that Menéndez Marqués would have carried through with his plans to establish a garrison at the mouth of the Chesapeake. It was too important strategically for him not to: a modest cost of men, but with a powerful and far-reaching impact. News of that garrison would have soon reached England, and the Susan Constant--a tubby merchant ship, no match for an armed Spanish packet--would never have dared make the voyage knowing the Spanish were waiting across the ocean. The garrison would have served its intended purpose; English efforts at colonization would have been discouraged, and the lower Chesapeake would have remained under Spanish control.
Moreover, if the Armada never sailed, the English would never have experienced the overwhelming surge of power and confidence following their improbable victory. Without the Armada, it's more likely that England would have remained trapped in a financial and emotional funk, unwilling to invest in the mad optimism of colonial ventures. The Susan Constant and her fleet wouldn't have sailed, Jamestown wouldn't have been founded, and the English presence in the Mid-Atlantic would have grown more slowly without its foothold in southern Virginia.
Charleston would still have been founded in 1670, as a British colony, and its growth on the northern border of La Florida would sever any land route the Spanish might have established up to the Chesapeake; but by that point the Spanish fortifications would have become too entrenched for easy removal. I can see them surviving as the result of an uneasy detente, in part because the English are unwilling to expend the resources that would be required to dislodge the Spanish.
The Knights
I think the Knight Lodges add some interesting gameplay potential, and having people spread around, reporting back to the Order, could go a long way toward making the Knights more influential in the new world.
And as we have it now, the Lodges are basically just small farms in the countryside, Cabins in the wilderness, or houses in the cities, hardly an unaffordable expense for anybody with a navy. The "armory" in most lodges is just a heavy, locked chest with some muskets, blades, powder and shot.
Also, each Lodge need not contain a proper Knight. The Order has many members who are not Knights (It's not like their ships are entirely crewed by Knights).
In fact, many of the Lodges Could be run by Volunteers, rather than proper members of the Order. A Farmer who volunteers his home to house traveling knights, his barn to store a few weapons. He keeps the Falcons, passes on messages, and paints the cross of St. John on his walls.
While the Knights may be a largely naval power, I don't want to keep them entirely isolated to the sea. There's a lot of great potential with them, too much to waste by forcing everybody to jump through hoops to give them a reason to be running around inland.
Sir Augusta
2014-05-16, 09:43 AM
I think we should keep the Chesapeake under British control, for the following reason: the Spanish don't need their armada to be defeated to be weakened. In this world, the Spanish not only don't have massive amounts of gold and silver from the South and Central American colonies, but they have fought a series of protracted, devestating wars, and should be consolidating their holdings in the Carribean as opposed to venturing far north to further anger a strong rival/enemy (Britain).
And as someone said earlier, we don't want to mess with the British too much, because this is the most familiar area to many players not well-versed in history. No to Jamestown but yes to Charleston doesn't make a whole lot of sense, either, as if the British were strong enought to settle and hold Charleston (near the Spanish), they'd easily be able to overtake a medium sized garrison far from Spanish territory.
And there's the issue of resupply; how (and why) are the Spanish going to go through all the trouble of passing the British fleet at Charleston to periodically resupply a small base that isn't guarding any of their colonies. I understand the strategy of asset-denial, but this seems far-fetched.
Steckie
2014-05-16, 02:08 PM
Columbia
I agree with not letting the Spanish have Chesapeake.
Cahokian fortresses at several Appalachian mountain passes sound pretty good, they would want to control any trade coming or going from those mountain passes.
Disease
That barrier sounds pretty powerfull. A bit too powerfull.
Creating a barrier like that around an infected city would effectively quarantine it. Magic like that would have done wonders with the Black Death. And with any other huge outbreak of disease.
Why not make it a bit more mundane: the Heaven Touching Mountains are so difficult to traverse that the diseases barely even spread beyond it. Whole tribes died out on the west coast, but because the death toll was so high and the mountains that hard to travel the diseases had no way to travel east.
However, those diseases could travel south and southeast. And they did. The Hisatsinom and surrounding tribes got hit badly, but they also had good healers among them. Their cities are densely populated and thus a good breeding ground for diseases and the cities are also connected by a good trade network. (Historically they apparently built huge roads, we can have them continue that)
Their healers quickly realised the trouble they were getting into, so they turned that disadvantage into an advantage. Their healers came together in [Horseshoe Bend City] and started using their collective knowledge to battle the diseases.
They did very good for themselves. While the death toll on the west coast was around 80%, in the Hisatsinom cities it ranged at about 25-30%. It was still a very rough time, but they survived.
After that, the knowledge of battling those diseases spread through the trade networks south into the Triple Alliance, east into the Cahokian League and north into Tuniitaq. Sadly the knowledge didn't spread fast enough to save the people on the east coast. Once the Europeans arrived they got hit badly by the diseases. Less so than the west coast because some knowledge started to spread, but still pretty hard. Probably between 60 and 70%.
Hisatsinom healers are still renowned for their skill. They probably have a society of healers and a huge hospital in their capitol. They may even be in contact with the Knights Hospitaller to exchange knowledge.
Hisatsinom
History
I'd say their main income comes from trading spider silk. Cahokia needs to trade with them to get high quality ropes. And the Hisatsinom aren't blind, they've most likely heard about what happened with the tribes of the Great Plains. They're powerfull enough to make deals with Cahokia on their own terms.
Spiders
I like your take on the spiders. Drone like mundane spiders and the larger magical ones could sound like a lot of fun.
Ongtupqa
Glad you like the city. The city layout isn't set in stone, we can still shift a lot around.
If only we could find an artist to make a picture of this city, it's a very scenic place and might make for some great artwork.
We might need to change the name though. Ongtupqa is the Hopi word for the Grand Canyon, but this place isn't in there.
We could name the spiders Ongtupqa, they could share that name with the Canyon itself.
The city on the new location could have a name that has something to do with spiders translated into Hopi.
Grandmother Spider's Nest?
The Web Below? (the web above being the stars)
One other thing i just realised: we could have a Vespuccian version of the Silk Road!
And Fusangese traders competing with the Hisatsinom over who has the best silk: the spiders or the larvae.
The Knights
I've been looking into the Knights a bit more, and i think we can make this enclave idea work. I would like to propose a few changes to make them a bit more historical though. Historically the Knights had the Langues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue_(Knights_Hospitaller)).
Basically the Knights were organised by language and origin (the French word langue means language or tongue, not the tongue in your mouth).
There were 8 langue 1. Provence (part of modern France) 2. France 3. Auvergne (another part of modern France) 4. Italy 5. Aragon (part of modern Spain) 6. Allemagne (modern Germany) 7. England 8. Castille (Portugal)
By the early fourteenth century, when the order moved to Rhodes, the knights were organised into eight groups or langues, based on language and origin. The head of each langue was known as a Pilier or bailiff. The Piliers, together with the Knights Grand Cross, the Bishop, the bailiffs of the Convents and the prior of the Conventual Church, sat on the Grand Council of the order. Each Pilier also had specific responsibilities within the order; that of France was the Hospitaller, that of Italy was the Admiral.
We can keep most of that stuff, just change it a bit to represent the new situation. The pope took over their job in the Old World, but they now have the New World Christians to protect. They reorganise themselves and their langues a bit. Each Langue has a 'Pillier' Leading them. And each Langue has several 'Auberges' that are like the enclaves you described. The French word auberge means inn or tavern.
The new Langues are:
1. France (French, Breton), main Auberge in Nouveau Orléans.
2. England (English, Welsh), main Auberge in ?????? probably on the east coast
3. Spain (Spanish, Basque), main Auberge in Cuba?
4. Portugal (Portugese) main Auberge on one of their islands, they're the smallest Langue
5. The Netherlands (Dutch) main Auberge in Nieuw Amsterdam
6. Papal State (Latin, Italian) main Auberge on one of their islands.
7. Germany/Scandinavia (German, Norse, Swedish, Finnish) no single nation, this represents a large area from wich few Knights come. Main Auberge in what was previously Nya Sverige
8. Native (Cahokian, Nahuatl, Tuniit language whatever the name is,.....) this represents the newly converted natives they will probably attract. Main Auberge in ???? no idea on this one.
Each Langue has several more Auberges, both big and small.
Edit: A few fun facts about the Knights:
- They used blackened armour because it doesn't rust that fast, especially at sea. Salt water makes stuff rust faster.
- The Knights had a tradition that if they died they would deed over their body to be dissected to advance medical knowledge. They are Hospitallers, even in death.
- Their combat uniform is black with a white Maltese Cross on the chest.
- All Knights were supposed to be literate and they studied philosophy, science and art.
- There are several protestant copycat orders.
Sir Augusta
2014-05-16, 11:15 PM
The English Lange could be Jamestown or Charleston. Probably Jamestown, as it's older, and nearer to the center of the British colonies. At first I thought Boston, but they're close to New Amsterdam, which is the Dutch Lange.
Should there be a Lange up in New France (Quebec)? That could be the French Lange, while New Orleans could be the Lange for Christianized natives, as the city is a blend of Euro and Native culture.
The German Lange could be Philadelphia PA.
I would put the English Lange in Rhode Island. While they consider themselves above such divisions, they ARE a catholic organization, and so would be less than welcome in the more puritan colonies.
I would put the French Lange in Haiti or New France, with the Native one in New Orleans.
Steckie
2014-05-17, 05:26 AM
Just to clarify: the Langues are not a place.
You can compare them roughly to the political parties that form the government of the Knights.
The Auberges are the actual locations (the enclaves).
Historically the Auberges were only built only on Malta. But in Vespuccia they have a much larger area to cover, so i assumed they would spread out a bit more. All 8 Langues have an Auberge on St Croix, the main Island of the Knights. They also have a larger Auberge that sits in an area important to that specific Langue, this would probably be their headquarters and that's why i tried giving them a location.
Then there are the various other Auberges spread throughout Vespuccia. They range from cabins in the wood manned by supporters of the Knights to fortified locations manned by several Knights.
I'm working on their ruling council, but first my kids need to do some performance at their school. I'll try to post something later today.
Sir Augusta
2014-05-17, 09:04 AM
Ok , sorry for the name confusion.
But by the "the Knights are folk to choose a Catholic-friendly place" logic, Maryland would be a great place to set up (I can't believe I didn't think of this before). It is an English colony for Catholics.
Steckie
2014-05-17, 01:08 PM
Here's what i've got for the government of the Knights. I think i based most of it on historical and contemporary politics of the Knights. I've got a lot of stuff from Order of Malta homepage (http://www.orderofmalta.int/?lang=en).
The Sovereign Council of the Order of St John:
Pillier means 'pillar' in French so they represent the basis of the order. The Pillier of each Langue is elected for a 5 year period wich they spend living in Saint Croix. The Pilliers are the representatives of their Langue.
His duties include: spreading the principles of the Faith, supervising Priories and Subpriories, compiling reports on visits to be sent to the Holy See on the state and life of the Order, and seeing to the religious aspects of the activities of Knights.
He is responsible for the foreign policy and the diplomatic missions of the Order.
He is responsible for the hospitals of the Order and the charitable and humanitarian actions. He also ensures that Christian principles of care and human dignity are respected.
He directs the administration of the finances and the property of the Order. Basically he's the treasurer
The leader of the order who also has the title of Cardinal and Reichsfürst (Prince of the Holy Roman Empire)
Together with the Sovereign Council he leads the order and takes all the final decisions. The other council members advise him.
He is elected for life from among the Knights.
This makes for a government of 13 people who all reside on Saint Croix, the Island fortress of the Knights.
Outside of Saint Croix each Langue governs itself within the boundaries of their constitution and the Knight's code. Each Langue is governed by a Bailiff, elected at the same time as the Pillier and for a 5 year period as well.
The Knights of the order are men of noble birth. They take three vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. These are the First Class Knights, called Knights of Justice. There are about 500 Knights of Justice.
Common men aren't allowed to become Knights, but they are allowed to become lay members of the Order. These are the Second Class Knights, called Knights of Obedience. There are about 3000 Knights of Obedience.
Oh, and one other thing i found out about: around Saint Croix: there are two Bioluminescent bays around Saint Croix.
I'd love to do something interesting with that but i can't seem to think of anything fun. Anybody got any ideas perhaps?
Have the knights totally moved to the New World, or are they still working in europe, with the new world order setting up a parallel governing structure on St. Croix
Steckie
2014-05-17, 03:37 PM
I'd have them move entirely.
The Ottoman Empire has been on decline since the 1680's or perhaps even a bit earlier. They've been stagnating since the early 1600's.
I also assume that the great hunting of magical creatures is just about coming to an end somewhere in the 17th century. So protecting people against those creatures isn't needed that much anymore.
In Vespuccia there is a lot to do for them. Many magical creatures, many christians to protect. If the pope asks them to go, they might even jump at the opportunity. And i bet the inquisition would be more than happy to see them leave the Old World.
Steckie
2014-05-18, 07:34 AM
Sorry for the doublepost, but while the subject of diseases has been brought up i'd like to add a few ideas.
Diseases are serious business in the world anno 1750. Especially in Vespuccia where European diseases killed a huge portion of the population. Unfortunatly Pathfinder (and any other RPG i know of for that matter) doesn't really do the damage these diseases did any justice.
Maybe we can change some of these things.
First, I'd like to start with changing the heal skill a bit. The main problem in my eyes is that it's a skill you can use untrained. While technically possible to help somebody when you're not trained in it, it's more likely you're going to cause more damage. I've followed a first aid course and very often untrained people have caused a lot of damage while they were trying to help.
So let's make it a skill you can only use when trained. And to take it a step further: let's make it into a knowledge skill.
Perhaps 'Knowledge: Afflictions and Anatomy' or something like that. That way it can't be used untrained, but the local bard could use his bardic knowledge and maybe find out some more about the disease or poison or whatever the problem might be. And this way we can go around the bad reputation the heal skill has.
Second, nobody ever takes the heal skill. Not when you've got a cleric on hand who can cast cure spells. And spells like Remove disease, neutralize poison, restoration,.... All a lot more usefull than the heal skill.
Remove disease spells are available at pretty low levels, wich doesn't really reflect the terrible effect they had on the civilizations we have in Vespuccia.
Let's make remove disease and neutralise poison into 7th or 8th or maybe even 9th level spells. Remove curse can stay as it is, those are usually caused by humans and should be easier to be removed by humans.
If those spells are a lot higher level, that would force people to use the heal skill to get rid of poison and diseases. We could add some sort of pouch with common herbs to treat diseases. Kind of like a spell component pouch for treating diseases.
Third, maybe we could add an infection chance to the game.
Want to help a town struck by an epidemic? Sure, but there's a chance you'll get infected. In fact visiting a town not struck by an epidemic might already get you infected. As will contact with some animals. Or plants. Or maybe an airborne disease. You can get infected anywhere. On the other hand running around with a disease shouldn't always be terrible. A common cold can be annoying, but wont hinder you much in combat.
Players could perhaps get a base immunity score? That score then goes higher or lower depending on ability scores, feats, spells, traits,...
I don't know if this is doable, i'm not that good with mechanics.
Oh, and i think this should be something optional. Not everybody will like to play with something like this.
To help with this i've started to think about some spells that might make the whole thing fit together a bit better:
Quarantine Person:
You can quarantine one person for every 4 caster levels up to a maximum of 5.If this person has a disease, he will no longer be able to spread this disease to other persons.
Reasoning: a small safety measure so people can avoid diseases but even at higher character levels one person can't protect his whole party.
Spread disease:
The opposite of quarantine person. You can spread a disease from one person you have touched to another. You must touch both these people within 10 minutes of casting the spell. The person you touched second will receive one random disease carried by the person first touched.
Reasoning: evil characters will probably want some fun with diseases.
Suppress symptoms:
You can remove any symptom or other negative effects from a disease for 24 hours. After that the symptoms will return (or maybe even get worse?)
Casting this spell will add 2 days to the time you carry that disease. You can cast this spell for a maximum of three days and will then suffer from the disease for 6 days + the days you still had left before casting the spell.
Reasoning: sometimes you don't want to fight that one boss while your meatshield has less strength and constitution.
Palanan
2014-05-18, 09:25 AM
Originally Posted by Steckie
Remove disease spells are available at pretty low levels, [which] doesn't really reflect the terrible effect they had on the civilizations we have in Vespuccia.
Let's make remove disease and neutralise poison into 7th or 8th or maybe even 9th level spells.... If those spells are a lot higher level, that would force people to use the heal skill to get rid of poison and diseases.
Agreed on general terms. In my last campaign I threw in a blend of diseases, and it was frustrating and disappointing just how trivial they can become, even by fourth or fifth level.
I wouldn't make Remove Disease quite that high-level, but as a fifth- or sixth-level spell it should still be high enough to warrant a strong early investment in the Heal skill.
As for Neutralize Poison, I think there's a good case to be made for that to be a lower-level spell. Disease outbreaks are sporadic and unpredictable, but canebrake rattlesnakes and deadly mushrooms will be an almost daily threat for many people, and it only makes sense that more magical effort would be spent on counteracting poison.
Originally Posted by Steckie
Third, maybe we could add an infection chance to the game.... Or maybe an airborne disease. You can get infected anywhere.
Interesting in theory, but this could easily balloon into a detailed subsystem, so the question is whether you want to spend the design effort on something a lot of players and GMs might pass over.
For my part, I like the idea of adding more severe consequences to diseases in Vespuccia, both for the more historical feel (awful though it is) and for the additional in-game challenge.
As for how the disease is transmitted, I would stay with human-to-human contact to reduce the permutations involved. A disease transmitted from animals (zoonosis, plural zoonoses) can be incredibly deadly--just read the first chapters of The Coming Plague for examples of modern outbreaks--and, in game terms, represents a large number of additional threats that have to be managed by the GM, and which could easily derail a campaign.
Also, you mentioned plants, but I can't think of any plants offhand which are vectors for serious disease. Typically a disease will have a reservoir in compatible hosts, either a human or mammal population, sometimes with a secondary host or vector from the invertebrate world. Again, modeling these in detail would involve a new subsystem, and a LOT of extra work for the GM.
I like the idea, but I would focus on a handful of human diseases and strengthen the mechanics to make them more of a lingering and pernicious threat. And keep in mind that if the characters are moving from, say, Philadelphia to Iroquoia and later Cahokia, they themselves may become vectors of disease, with all the moral freight that may bear.
Originally Posted by Steckie
In fact visiting a town not struck by an epidemic might already get you infected.
The syntax in this sentence is a little odd, in particular the use of "might already," so I'm not at all sure what's meant here.
Originally Posted by Steckie
To help with this i've started to think about some spells that might make the whole thing fit together a bit better....
Suppress Symptoms looks the most useful, both in the context of Vespuccian societies and for characters wanting to power on.
Not sure how Quarantine Person is meant to work, since a quarantine is just a physical isolation on medical grounds. If the intention here is to prevent an infected person from passing the disease along, you might want to rename the spell Suppress Infection or Negate Transmission.
As for giving characters a magical means to spread disease...I'd treat that option cautiously, especially in the context of an alternate North America. When I ran the disease scenario in my last campaign, it didn't take long before one of the players was trying to work out a way to weaponize his character's infection. Given the circumstances of 1750s Vespuccia, that kind of player wouldn't think twice about spreading a plague to take down Cahokia and install his character as emperor or whatever, and I don't know if that's the sort of campaign you want the disease mechanics to encourage.
I think we actually discussed this already.
I forget eactly what we decided. We raised the level of Remove Disease, and we decided that, while it would cure somebody, it would NOT grant them any resistance to further infection.
So, while Remove Disease could be used to keep a few elites going during a plague, or to control a small infection, it could not be used against an epidemic.
Steckie
2014-05-18, 12:45 PM
As for Neutralize Poison, I think there's a good case to be made for that to be a lower-level spell. Disease outbreaks are sporadic and unpredictable, but canebrake rattlesnakes and deadly mushrooms will be an almost daily threat for many people, and it only makes sense that more magical effort would be spent on counteracting poison.
Good point.
As for how the disease is transmitted, I would stay with human-to-human contact to reduce the permutations involved. A disease transmitted from animals (zoonosis, plural zoonoses) can be incredibly deadly--just read the first chapters of The Coming Plague for examples of modern outbreaks--and, in game terms, represents a large number of additional threats that have to be managed by the GM, and which could easily derail a campaign.
Also, you mentioned plants, but I can't think of any plants offhand which are vectors for serious disease. Typically a disease will have a reservoir in compatible hosts, either a human or mammal population, sometimes with a secondary host or vector from the invertebrate world. Again, modeling these in detail would involve a new subsystem, and a LOT of extra work for the GM.
Plants was something that i forgot to remove from the sentence, so please forget i typed that.
As for zoonosis, it's still a big problem now and it was a big problem in 1750. Maybe for every animal that gets (re)designed we add a short list of common diseases they carry?
And keep in mind that if the characters are moving from, say, Philadelphia to Iroquoia and later Cahokia, they themselves may become vectors of disease, with all the moral freight that may bear.
Hence the quarantine person spell :smallsmile:
I do agree that it will need another name.
The syntax in this sentence is a little odd, in particular the use of "might already," so I'm not at all sure what's meant here.
I'm Belgian. My mother language is Dutch. In school we start learning French at age 11, German and English at age 14. I'm 28 now, school has been a long time ago and remembering three extra languages results in me getting confused from time to time.
Perhaps it's a good thing i forgot most of my German :smallsmile:
Admiral Squish
2014-05-19, 08:02 PM
Lord, another huge post!
A note: As much as the non-english spellings of various places sounds good, I think we could safely refer to places by what they would be called in english, for the sake of speed and ease of understanding.
Columbia Colonies:
Portugal
Hmm... If memory serves, one of the initial conflict points in the Tuniitaq region was going to be conflict over Newfoundland fisheries. Initially, the Vinlandrs allowed them in, and traded with the fishing ships, but when they started to over-fish and try to drive away the Vinlandrs who lived on the island, they struck back, launching raids on the coastal fishing settlements and stealing their supplies, eventually gaining enough cannon-power to mount on their ships in numbers enough to take on the full-sized ships and keep them out in the future.
Spain
Okay, so Spain controls the eastern shore south of Charleston.
I'm still not sold on the Chesapeake, though. Yes, the armada was never defeated by the English, a fact mad possible by the fact that it never sailed in the first place. The defeat of the Spanish was such a big deal because they were the big dogs of the time, with money to burn on an enormous fleet of ships like that. The fact that Spain never had the money to do that in the first place would certainly not be lost on the British. In this timeline, the Spanish aren't rich, or immensely powerful.
While the defeat of the armada was surely a great boot of confidence to the British, I'm certain that seeing their major rival states lose out over and over in the new world would surely grant them a similar boost of confidence, though spread out over a much longer period of time. Spain failing in Aztatlan, Portugal getting the boot from Brasilia, and such.
New Orleans
Here's a question that occurred to me. The city itself is a melting pot, but what about the surrounding area? Is it officially french, a mixture, or is the city itself all the foreign settlement Cahokia allowed?
Knights of Malta
A minor point: the original emblem was black with a white cross, but it was changed before they left the holy land to a red field with a white cross. Kind of the Bizarro version of the red cross symbol.
Lodges
Hmm... Well, I suppose I could see a sort of volunteer lodge dealie goin' on. They would probably be relatively few and far between, but if you know your way around you could probably make it to the next one in a long day's ride, at least along certain routes.
Ooh, regarding the peasants keeping falcons: equipment idea. The falcon cages are all equipped with a special, very lightly magical, falconing glove, that lets the wearer direct the bird to a nearby lodge as with an animal messenger spell. I don't think these volunteer posts would be disciplined enough in their training to have them fly self-guided.
Langues/Auberges
This system works pretty well in my mind, though I think we could rearrange the auberges a bit. Also, can we just call them 'enclaves'?
France's could be in the north, above Maine, as that's France's largest, contiguous area of settlement.
England, as suggested, could probably be in Rhode Island.
Spain's would probably be Cuba, or possibly in Florida.
Portugal's auberge would probably have been in Brasilia itself, but was expelled like the rest of the European settlements.
Netherlands' sounds fine in New Amsterdam.
The papal state's auberge would probably be New Malta itself, though perhaps one of the nearby islands would work if they can't share.
German/Scandanavian sounds fine in new sweden.
Natives... This one's more of a challenge. I suspect they would put it in New Orleans, but this branch would be very widely spread around.
Leadership
A council of 12 around an extremely powerful leader? That just sounds ripe for all kinds of plot mischief.
Moving to the New World
I think there should be, at the least, one langue remaining in the old world, on Malta, in their traditional holdings. I could imagine them moving over, but I think they wouldn't just abandon the island they called home for 200 years.
Membership:
I think we should probably bump up those numbers if we want them to be a significant power. Granted, their use of ships is a pretty good force-multiplier, but that only applies at sea. Volunteers will only take you so far, there need to be enough knights to pose a credible threat in military terms. Maybe 1000 knights of justice, 5000 knights of obedience?
What level do you think an average knight would be? High enough to start taking levels in a PRC?
Also, what are the penalties for breaking the oaths? Would they be magically enforced, or mundane?
Disease
Heal:
I definitely think that the heal skill should have a larger role in the game. I could certainly imagine making it a trained only skill, but I don't think it would be a knowledge skill. Firstly, it would work very differently than any other knowledge skills, which is its own issue. Secondly, the healing is less about your ability to learn than it is about judgement and accumulated knowledge, it seems more of a wisdom skill than an intelligence one. Estimating dosages, making calls about the course of treatment, and so on. This would particularly apply to this setting, where medicine's not truly a science yet.
Magic
I don't remember indicating we should raise the level of the remove disease spell, I do, however, remember discussing the idea that it would only work on specific diseases, so remove disease wouldn't just be a magical panacea, it would be a specific response to a specific disease, and it would not prevent reinfection. It wouldn't be separate spells for each one, but you would learn how to apply it to different diseases somehow.
I will agree I think the poison one can stay low safely, as poison's a much more specific, immediate danger.
Reinfection
Speaking of reinfection, I think an important point would be that individuals who have already overcome a disease or were exposed to it as a child would be either more difficult or impossible to reinfect. On one hand, reinfection is boring for players, and it would be simpler to have the plague just be unable to affect those already recovered. On the other hand, in many cases, reinfection IS possible, just much more difficult.
I'm thinking of either just saying it's impossible to be reinfected once you overcome a disease, or saying you get a +X bonus to resisting an infection of something you've overcome.
A note: Overcoming it means surviving it naturally and fighting it off via fortitude save. So, while receiving treatment from a healer would still count as overcoming it, a disease removed by magic wouldn't grant said bonus.
Zoonoses:
I don't think that EVERY animal needs to have a list of diseases. Typically zoonoses only occur in animals that live in very close proximity to humans for extended periods of time. I.E. cowpox, bird flu, black plague, and such. That's why Europeans had so many disease the natives were unprepared for, they raised animals, and the natives didn't really hang with animals, other than dogs.
But even then, I don't think we need to make players roll every time they come in contact with animals or other people. I think we fill out the disease section appropriately, and indicate the sorts of things the players can catch them from, and it'll be fine. I don't think anyone wants to turn crossroads into oregon trail, where you have to worry about dying from dysentery every other week.
Plague History
Hmmm... With the change to using magic against disease, I'm not sure this would work as written, your version OR my version. The ability to treat the disease magically would only serve to delay the infection from spreading through the city or town. We would need a preventative.
Here's a radical idea: What if the Natives invented immunization? I mean, It wouldn't be vaccination, it would work by a different method, but it would accomplish a similar goal. I think the word is inoculation.
Healers notice that people who lived through the plague and survive are less likely to become infected. The spellcasters could use a variant of the contagion or epidemic spells to create an altered version of the plague in question, one that doesn't actually do damage to the host, though they may show some other symptoms. The weaker version has a lower DC, and it's close enough to the real disease that the body is trained to defend against it. The created disease is just as infectious as the normal version, and it would be spread along the trade routes and into other populations to create an immunization effect. Perhaps the cure-plague could have a specific, highly unusual symptom, that would allow people to identify people infected with the real thing and people with the weakened version.
Hisatsinom
History
Alright, I'll accept they will remain independent of the league, though I suspect they're still being courted quite intensely. That could be a plot for players on either side of the line.
Spiders
...Hmm. Would that mean that by having one as a companion/familiar, you would also have a spider swarm accompanying it?
Also, it occurs to me that spiders spinning such large webs are likely going to be catching bird as well as bugs. Perhaps birds would be viewed as pests? I mean, they eat grain and corn, they poo indiscriminately... It could lead to some interesting changes in outlook.
City
I've been thinking that we need a picture of the city since it was first brought up. This is right up there with Cahokia, Jade Harbor, New Orleans, and Yellowtusk in terms of places we need pictures of.
Mrr... all the online dictionaries I find are really, really sparse. I can't find a word for town, city, building, structure, spider, or web. I did find that there's one english-hopi dictionary that was published, and it's apparently very complete and detailed, but it's $300-600 for a copy.
I suppose we can just refer to it in English.
Hmm. 'The Web Below' sounds awesome, but perhaps a bit too grand for just one city. Perhaps the web below could refer to their road system?
I don't remember indicating we should raise the level of the remove disease spell, I do, however, remember discussing the idea that it would only work on specific diseases, so remove disease wouldn't just be a magical panacea, it would be a specific response to a specific disease, and it would not prevent reinfection. It wouldn't be separate spells for each one, but you would learn how to apply it to different diseases somehow.
I will agree I think the poison one can stay low safely, as poison's a much more specific, immediate danger.
What's the current rule set for making a believable illusion? The reason for my question is that a way around the "no separate spells but still have to apply differently" is that it can be that one has to know exactly what one is dealing with the make the spell work, kinda like an effective illusion (As was done when I played 1E, hence my question about current rules). If you haven't seen it, or have a really good description of what to do, the spell fails, and maybe at most, buys the infected momentary relief. This means that there is a drive for expanding ones grasp of the healing arts both for a Heal skill as well as the spell itself.
Reinfection
Speaking of reinfection, I think an important point would be that individuals who have already overcome a disease or were exposed to it as a child would be either more difficult or impossible to reinfect. On one hand, reinfection is boring for players, and it would be simpler to have the plague just be unable to affect those already recovered. On the other hand, in many cases, reinfection IS possible, just much more difficult.
I'm thinking of either just saying it's impossible to be reinfected once you overcome a disease, or saying you get a +X bonus to resisting an infection of something you've overcome.
A note: Overcoming it means surviving it naturally and fighting it off via fortitude save. So, while receiving treatment from a healer would still count as overcoming it, a disease removed by magic wouldn't grant said bonus.
How about drawing up a of contagion for diseases so that some diseases (like the cold) have high contagion rate, but a lower risk, while other conditions are always a risk after first infection, while others are more of a catch once, low survival rate, but afterwards there will be no problems afterwards. So you'll have two axis: Contagion, and Severity. This can be generalized to allow for custom diseases if one chooses to deal with Skinwalkers and other plague-bringers. (Do we have Skinwalkers in this setting?)
Aux-Ash
2014-05-20, 12:24 AM
Lord, another huge post!
Columbia Colonies:
Portugal
Hmm... If memory serves, one of the initial conflict points in the Tuniitaq region was going to be conflict over Newfoundland fisheries. Initially, the Vinlandrs allowed them in, and traded with the fishing ships, but when they started to over-fish and try to drive away the Vinlandrs who lived on the island, they struck back, launching raids on the coastal fishing settlements and stealing their supplies, eventually gaining enough cannon-power to mount on their ships in numbers enough to take on the full-sized ships and keep them out in the future.
They have carribean colonies not too far away, doesn't that work? Close enough to be a presence in harbours, but when it comes to colonisation they have Brazil, Goa and Macau to contend with and that's far more lucrative than Newfoundland.
New Orleans
Here's a question that occurred to me. The city itself is a melting pot, but what about the surrounding area? Is it officially french, a mixture, or is the city itself all the foreign settlement Cahokia allowed?
I don't think Cahokia could root out french settlers in southern Louisiana even if they wanted to. So I'd say it should be french.
Disease
Heal:
I definitely think that the heal skill should have a larger role in the game. I could certainly imagine making it a trained only skill, but I don't think it would be a knowledge skill. Firstly, it would work very differently than any other knowledge skills, which is its own issue. Secondly, the healing is less about your ability to learn than it is about judgement and accumulated knowledge, it seems more of a wisdom skill than an intelligence one. Estimating dosages, making calls about the course of treatment, and so on. This would particularly apply to this setting, where medicine's not truly a science yet.
Magic
I don't remember indicating we should raise the level of the remove disease spell, I do, however, remember discussing the idea that it would only work on specific diseases, so remove disease wouldn't just be a magical panacea, it would be a specific response to a specific disease, and it would not prevent reinfection. It wouldn't be separate spells for each one, but you would learn how to apply it to different diseases somehow.
I will agree I think the poison one can stay low safely, as poison's a much more specific, immediate danger.
Reinfection
Speaking of reinfection, I think an important point would be that individuals who have already overcome a disease or were exposed to it as a child would be either more difficult or impossible to reinfect. On one hand, reinfection is boring for players, and it would be simpler to have the plague just be unable to affect those already recovered. On the other hand, in many cases, reinfection IS possible, just much more difficult.
I'm thinking of either just saying it's impossible to be reinfected once you overcome a disease, or saying you get a +X bonus to resisting an infection of something you've overcome.
A note: Overcoming it means surviving it naturally and fighting it off via fortitude save. So, while receiving treatment from a healer would still count as overcoming it, a disease removed by magic wouldn't grant said bonus.
Zoonoses:
I don't think that EVERY animal needs to have a list of diseases. Typically zoonoses only occur in animals that live in very close proximity to humans for extended periods of time. I.E. cowpox, bird flu, black plague, and such. That's why Europeans had so many disease the natives were unprepared for, they raised animals, and the natives didn't really hang with animals, other than dogs.
But even then, I don't think we need to make players roll every time they come in contact with animals or other people. I think we fill out the disease section appropriately, and indicate the sorts of things the players can catch them from, and it'll be fine. I don't think anyone wants to turn crossroads into oregon trail, where you have to worry about dying from dysentery every other week.
Plague History
Hmmm... With the change to using magic against disease, I'm not sure this would work as written, your version OR my version. The ability to treat the disease magically would only serve to delay the infection from spreading through the city or town. We would need a preventative.
Here's a radical idea: What if the Natives invented immunization? I mean, It wouldn't be vaccination, it would work by a different method, but it would accomplish a similar goal. I think the word is inoculation.
Healers notice that people who lived through the plague and survive are less likely to become infected. The spellcasters could use a variant of the contagion or epidemic spells to create an altered version of the plague in question, one that doesn't actually do damage to the host, though they may show some other symptoms. The weaker version has a lower DC, and it's close enough to the real disease that the body is trained to defend against it. The created disease is just as infectious as the normal version, and it would be spread along the trade routes and into other populations to create an immunization effect. Perhaps the cure-plague could have a specific, highly unusual symptom, that would allow people to identify people infected with the real thing and people with the weakened version.
Fun fact: They did. Inoculation in various forms was discovered by multiple cultures independently. It's just that the english and french were the first to actually start applying that knowledge en masse.
It's just that inoculation means you use an actual contagion and it only works for viruses like smallpox. It's a very flawed method, but it works. Only, in 1750 that method has not been adopted yet. It's 48 years left, which leaves the europeans just as devestated by the disease as the natives that survived the 16th century.
One thing to note however, that the big killers of the time: measles and small pox (and for the natives, chicken pox), are both primarily children's diseases that occasionally flares up as epidemics in immunologically naive populations. Which is to say that most PCs should be survivors of said disease and thus immune. Not being immune sounds like the perfect flaw to take.
Malaria is the disease that's most likely to afflict the player characters.. Closely followed by dysentery and then... syphilis (and not the "nice" modern version, but rather a horrible disease that truly invoked fear). Maybe Tuberculosis. Plague falls more in the category of plot element than something random that's likely to occur, being infected by it during an epidemic is pretty much a death sentence anyways.
Cholera is not yet an issue and neither is influenzea.
Steckie
2014-05-20, 02:05 PM
Knights Hospitaller
(I'm learning a lot of interesting stuff while researching these guys, i never knew they were this awesome.)
Auberges
I quite like the name Auberge actually. But i don't know how it sounds in English, i've got the French pronunciation in my head. Enclaves sounds a bit....generic. And remember that the Auberges are the same as the lodges, so those volunteers are manning the Auberges.
The locations of those Auberges are just the main Auberges. The ones where the leaders of the Langues reside.
So while the Native Auberge is probably in New Orléans, there are several other Auberges in native territory.
Moving to the New World
If the Pope took over Malta in a peacefull way by merging the Knights with the rest of the Church, they wont have much left to do there. Then it's a small step to move to the New World completely. And why spend money tending their holdings in Malta?
I would also have the interesting effect of the first Euro-Vespuccian nation without any holdings in the Old World. Kinda like the colonial revolters but without an actual revolution.
Membership
I'd stick to the 500 Knights of Justice and 3000 Knights of Obedience.
But you do have point that we should up their numbers. That's easy though: they need sailors, archers, musketeers, cannoneers,... Basically a group of combatants and non-combatants that helps them stay the naval power they are. About 7000 of them maybe?
Historically the soldiers were called Serjeants-at-arms, can't find anything about the sailors and things like that. We could call all of them Serjeants-at-arms, things might start to get difficult if we make too much kinds of combatants and non-combatants.
Diseases
Remove disease
If you build the spell so that you apply it to diseases you know, does this mean you're planning to add some sort of book for diseases?
Kinda like a spellbook where you add diseases you know and you are able to learn x diseases per level. And each culture has a list of diseases they automatically have in their book, but they're able to start learning the diseases of other cultures in some way.
Maybe research in books? Contact with a patient? Getting the disease yourself?
Heal
I don't agree actually.
Measuring dosages and making calls about the treatment is somehting you should learn about, not something you just guess.
And while currently we don't think of the way they treated diseases back then as a science, it was still something that was studied. And passed on to the next generation. They got the knowledge they had through trial and error, one death or survival at a time.
Sure they made mistakes that stuck in their culture because they didn't have the techniques we have, but these people weren't stupid.
That's why i think it's better as a Knowledge skill. People get trained in medicine, they don't just start giving herbs in random quantities and hoping they have effect. They learn the knowledge of the previous generations and apply it. If they're good they expand on that knowledge.
Hisatsinom
Spiders
I wouldn't give a swarm to the animal companion spiders.
Why not make the mundane spiders into a species native to the Grand Canyon and the Grand Canyon only. They don't venture outside of the canyon, but the magical ones do. They might even be an imported species to help manage the mundane spiders?
Roads
Ooh, the Web Below for their road network is a much better idea as giving that name to the city.
Historically they built roads up to 30ft wide. Maybe in Vespuccia this road network is part of their strength. Cahokian, Fusangese and Mexica traders all have to pay tolls to use the roads, but they gladly do so because it's the safest and fastest way to travel.
But you need a guide though. The 'Web Below' is not just a name, it's roughly shaped like a web and that makes for some real confusing roads. Without a guide a non-Hisatsinom person travelling the roads would probably get lost really quickly.
The Knights
A few thoughts
First of all, I imagine that the Native Auberge is probably more wishful thinking than a proper fully-fledged Branch. There isn't that much of a converted native population, especially since, IIRC, a lot of native converts would practice Catholicism alongside their traditional beliefs, and the Knights probably require a bit more orthodoxy then that.
I'm not saying the Native Auberge does not exist, but it would have very few members.
Plus, if Knights of Justice MUST come from Nobility, how does that work with Native societies that don't fit into a european-style model of nobility?
Another thing to consider, in the middle ages Knights were always nobles because of the immense cost associated with outfitting a Knight. You needed a trained warhorse (Probably more than one), Armor, Weapons, plus various servants, men-at-arms, ect to accompany the Knight into battle, plus a lifetime of training.
However, that definition of Knight is going to be less relevant in the New World, as are titles of Nobility, especially with a band of neuvo-riche plantation owners, merchant captains, and explorers. Outfitting a modern Knight is a much less expensive affair: A good Horse, a sword and some light armor, a high-quality musket and pistol, plus some powder and shot.
I also wouldn't hold the Knights to any hard numbers in terms of membership.
Lets re-evaluate the New Knights a bit.
Knights of Justice: These are the true Knights, they pledge a lifetime of service to the order, taking vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. Usually they come either from Old-World Noble families, or from especially wealthy new-world families.
These Knights usually bring a considerable amount of wealth with them when they join the Order. They can usually be found captaining ships, working in New Malta, or leading especially important quests. While the requirement that you must be of noble birth isn't technically a rule, you need to bring a considerable amount of wealth with you to become a Knight of Justice.
Knights of Obedience: These Knights are generally less-wealthy than Knights of Justice. A big difference is that a Knight of Obedience does not donate all their wealth, nor do they automatically pledge a lifetime of service. A Knight of Obedience pledges twenty years of their life to the service of the Knights (Although upon reaching that mark, most of them choose to pledge another twenty). Most adventurer-Knights are going to be Knights of Obedience.
Knights of Obedience can be seen undertaking quests, manning important lodges, serving as officers on ships, and carrying out important tasks for the Order.
A knight traveling alone, or with a small adventuring party, is usually a Knight of Obedience.
Knights of Obedience also make up the backbone of the Order's infantry and marines. They may sometimes serve as common sailors, but are usually being groomed for more important work. As the Order is largely nautical, they have limited need for a large ground force (Maybe a few soldiers to accompany Knights of Justice around, or guard Lodges).
Traditionally, a Knight of Obedience will spend the first few years of their service as a Marine or Soldier. If they distinguish themselves during that time, they may become an officer, be given some minor administrative or diplomatic role, or given leave to become a Questing Knight, traveling the New World carrying out the Knight's mission.
Occasionally a Knight of Obedience, upon completing their twenty years, may become a Knight of Justice, upgrading their oath and pledging the rest of their natural life in service to the Order.
And then there are the "Sworn Men". These are not Knights, although many of them seek to emulate the Knights in their behavior, they swear no oaths besides obedience to the order. They are the common soldiers, sailors, and servants of the Order. Like any soldiers, they are paid a wage for their service and may leave the Knight's service after a few years. For the most part the Sworn Men are drawn from the same population of sailors that crew pirate ships, merchantmen, and the navies of various powers in the new world. It's not unusual for captured Pirates to swear they were serving under duress, and pledge a few years of service to the Knights in exchange for mercy.
If the Knights expect to run into some major ground conflict, they may raise an army of Sworn Men to serve as ground forces, however this is rare.
Sworn Men are sometimes referred to as "knights" in reference to the order they serve (as in "A ship full of Knights arrived in boston three days ago)", but individually they are not Knights, and are not treated as such.
Finally there are Volunteers, not members of the Order at all, simply people who dedicate some time, effort, or resources to the order. These are people who keep the lodges, send reports to the Knights, ect ect.
So, your standard PC Knight is likely a Knight of Obedience (Knights of Justice are usually too busy to go joining up with random adventuring parties, and Sworn Men are not Knights) who, having served a few years as a marine on a pirate-hunter, has been given leave to either go on a specific quest, or to wander the land defending Christians, slaying monsters, righting wrongs, keeping an eye out for threats, and making sure everybody likes the Order.
Maybe research in books? Contact with a patient? Getting the disease yourself?
I would say all of the above, as they all provide insight into how to cure the disease. Maybe an idea is that a high level healer who has seen similar diseases (ex. cowpox to smallpox, so can cure cowpox but not small pox) has half effectiveness at healing smallpox, and 1/4 effectiveness at healing a disease they do not recognize?
Steckie
2014-05-20, 04:00 PM
First of all, I imagine that the Native Auberge is probably more wishful thinking than a proper fully-fledged Branch. There isn't that much of a converted native population, especially since, IIRC, a lot of native converts would practice Catholicism alongside their traditional beliefs, and the Knights probably require a bit more orthodoxy then that.
I'm not saying the Native Auberge does not exist, but it would have very few members.
I agree, they would have very few members.
But the Natives exist and are a lot more powerfull than they were in our history. And the Knights have sworn an oath to protect all christians, so that means they must even protect the newly converted Natives. However those Europeans are a bit arrogant so they don't want those Natives in their Langues and their Auberges. So they create a new Langue for the Natives. They lump all Natives in there regardless of language, etnicity or culture, while the Europeans are grouped by language and nation of origin.
The price they pay is that the Natives have 1 vote on the council of 12 surrounding the Grand Master. Doesn't give them much power, but the Knights feel like they've upheld their oaths.
Plus, if Knights of Justice MUST come from Nobility, how does that work with Native societies that don't fit into a european-style model of nobility?
Another thing to consider, in the middle ages Knights were always nobles because of the immense cost associated with outfitting a Knight. You needed a trained warhorse (Probably more than one), Armor, Weapons, plus various servants, men-at-arms, ect to accompany the Knight into battle, plus a lifetime of training.
I'm actually envisioning the Knights of Obedience to be common men that can grow into Knights of Justice if they serve well and are very talented. They would then become minor nobles (a noble is a knight, thus a knight is a noble).
That would make the converted Natives that become Knights of Justice (a rare occasion) into European-style nobles, and so would their offspring. The Natives probably wouldn't care much about the nobility.
Knights of Obedience: These Knights are generally less-wealthy than Knights of Justice. A big difference is that a Knight of Obedience does not donate all their wealth, nor do they automatically pledge a lifetime of service. A Knight of Obedience pledges twenty years of their life to the service of the Knights (Although upon reaching that mark, most of them choose to pledge another twenty). Most adventurer-Knights are going to be Knights of Obedience.
I prefer making them pledge for life. The Knights are a proud order and any man who isn't willing to spend his life on the order shouldn't bother trying to join them.
Occasionally a Knight of Obedience, upon completing their twenty years, may become a Knight of Justice, upgrading their oath and pledging the rest of their natural life in service to the Order.
Like i stated above, i agree with this.
I wouldn't let them choose to become a Knight of Justice though, they would have to be handpicked by the Pillier of their Langue orr somebody else on the Sovereign Council.
This effectively makes them a minor noble.
Great stuff about the Sworn Men.
I like this a lot.
What would their official name be? Sworn Men sounds a bit generic. I suggested 'Serjeants-at-arms' earlier, but that might resemble the military rank of sergeant too much and make things confusing.
Squires of Saint Croix?
Soldiers of St John?
A few questions:
1) Female Knights? Historically there are female Knights in several countries, but never a lot of them. Are there some in the Knights Hospitaller?
2) Saint John the Baptist is the patron saint of the Knights. Do we want to do anything with him?
3) The 'Right Hand of the Forerunner' is a holy relic in posession of the Knights. It's supposed to be the right hand of St John, the hand he used to baptise Jesus. They also own a splinter of the True Cross and the icon of the Madonna on Mount Philerimos.
Three holy relics, would they take these to the New World with them? And are we going to do anything special with them?
4) The Knights had a code that prevented them from raising arms against fellow Christians. Do we want this in the game?
Attacking a fellow Christian is probably out of the question, but i can't find anything on self-defense, so i don't know how their policy on that was.
A few questions:
1) Female Knights? Historically there are female Knights in several countries, but never a lot of them. Are there some in the Knights Hospitaller?
2) Saint John the Baptist is the patron saint of the Knights. Do we want to do anything with him?
3) The 'Right Hand of the Forerunner' is a holy relic in posession of the Knights. It's supposed to be the right hand of St John, the hand he used to baptise Jesus. They also own a splinter of the True Cross and the icon of the Madonna on Mount Philerimos.
Three holy relics, would they take these to the New World with them? And are we going to do anything special with them?
4) The Knights had a code that prevented them from raising arms against fellow Christians. Do we want this in the game?
Attacking a fellow Christian is probably out of the question, but i can't find anything on self-defense, so i don't know how their policy on that was.
I'm not sure the "sworn men" would have any official title, they're just soldiers, sailors, or servants to the Order. Internally they're probably just called "Soldiers" or "Sailors" or whatever. "Squires" implies an official title they would not have. You could go with "Servants" "Acolytes"
You wouldn't say "Select fifty Sworn Men and sail for Cuba", you would say "Select fifty soldiers and sail for Cuba". The term "Sworn men" or "Knight's Men" is probably an unofficial term used by outsiders. As in "I met a Knight's Man in New Amsterdam who told me XYZ".
Another term that might work is "Maltese". Since the Knights don't operate out of Malta anymore. You could say "I met a Maltese Sailor in New Amsterdam".
They're probably evenly split between people who believe it's a great honor to serve the Order, and mariners who see the Knights as just another flag to fly under with wages that spend as well as anybody's.
Female Knights, in the interest of improving game play opportunities, I'm going to say yes.
The Relics are probably powerful magical items, I imagine that the Knights kept them, although if they were lost somehow in the New World (perhaps a Link Miscalculation?) That could be prime plot-fodder, as the Knights travel around questing for their lost relics.
As for "Don't raise arms against a fellow christian", I think we may need to No True Scotsman that. For example, the Knights are battling pirates and rogue inquisitors.
The Oath remains, but with a decent understanding that it only applies to "Real" Christians. Pirates, Brigands, Power-Mad Rogue Inquisitors and the like are fair game (power mad inquisitors still in the church's good graces are only to be decapitated and/or disemboweled under the most extreme circumstances).
Plus, the Knights may take it upon themselves to defend Christians from other Christians if need be. They try to stay above politics and preserves lives, but I could see them intervening to protect civilians on both sides during a war between the Spanish and the English.
I would wrap it into their role as Defenders of Christendom.
Steckie
2014-05-21, 06:19 AM
Maltese.... not sure, that would give the impression they're from Malta. And that the center of the order still is on Malta, wich isn't true.
Maybe Oathless? The ones that work for the Knights but didn't take any oaths. Even a chambermaid on Saint Croix is an Oathless.
All the other stuff sounds pretty good. Female Knights would probably receive a lot of discrimination and mysoginist remarks, but as long as they do their job right they are Knights.
Well, Dames actually, that's how female Knights are normally called. Chevalière if you want to go French. Or Equitissa if you want to go Latin.
That brings me to another point: what language do the Knights use?
Historically they were very deeply rooted in French language and customs, but the times have changed and there are a lot more nationalities in the order. I wouldn't go with French anymore.
Maltese is a seperate language, we could use that. Every Knight that joins the order knows his own language but is obliged to learn Maltese and Latin as well. Latin to use during religious duties. And Maltese to use during every other duty. By using that language you can basically communicate with every Knight, his origin doesn't matter.
I've mentioned earlier that there are two bioluminescent bays on Saint Croix.
The largest, Salt River Bay, seems like a nice place to put the headquarters of the order. Coincidentally it's also a place where members of a Columbus expedition came ashore during one of his trips.
There's an idea i have for this bay: the Knights have somehow (south vespuccian biomancers? Cahokian druids?) been able to breed the creatures that have the bioluminescense for their own uses.
The fortress they've built in Salt River Bay (needs a new name) is a huge stone fortress that glows in the dark, they can see most enemies coming even when it's dark.
They've added the bioluminescense to their ships. The captain has a special magic item that gives him the power to illuminate his ship. Every time a Knights ship goes into battle, they light up. This is especially intimidating during night attacks.
It has happened that a watchman stares out in the dark, feeling a bit bored until suddenly a huge ship lights up. 10 seconds later a dozen other ships simulatneously light up as well. Then the cannonfire starts. And the Knights use an onboard trebuchet or catapult to fire a fluid that contains bioluminescense onto the fortress they're attacking, temporarily lighting up the whole place in an eerie glow. Finally the landing parties come ashore and start killing the defenders.
It's mostly intimidation, but it's pretty usefull as well.
Other ideas:
Bioluminescent torches?
The cross on their chest is made in a bioluminescent fabric, when they go into combat it starts glowing? This would work better if their tabards become black again instead of the red they've adopted.
SuperDave
2014-05-21, 11:47 AM
Just a general question of sorts, how well do you think this world would play with E6?
You know, you might be onto something there!
So far, everything we've designed has been done with Lv. 20 as the capstone, but if we're going for gritty realism and a relatively low-magic setting that doesn't conflict too much with actual history, then the E6 (epic at Lv 6) would be an elegant solution. There would be no need to worry about high-level spells changing history too much, because they wouldn't even exist.
Plus, E6 worked pretty well for Mangles' Stralia setting, if you're familiar with it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?241090-Stralia-A-3-5-E6-setting-(PEACH)
I guess the only problems are that we'd have to redesign/shorten a lot of classes we've designed, and a lot of monsters would have impossibly high CRs as a result.
...well OK, now that I think about it, those are actually some pretty severe changes we'd have to make. So maybe we just leave 20 as the definition of "epic". But I DO like the idea of someone running an e6 variant-campaign in the Crossroads universe!
Admiral Squish
2014-05-21, 02:19 PM
Disease
Inoculation
Figures Wikipedia wouldn't mention the Native Americans coming up with it.
That would reinforce my idea's validity. The contagion-created disease would spread among the population along the same vectors the normal one would, infecting everyone and letting their bodies fight it off naturally without actually threatening their lives, though it would probably still be somewhat unpleasant. The magic contagion creates immunity ahead of the waves of plague, as long as it could be moved along fast enough. The process of developing the mystical version of the plague seems like it would take some time, but it could certainly be accomplished considering the density of Vespuccian spellcasters.
Overall, I think it would be a very interesting change to history, it would explain the pre-contact population levels of the Vespuccian heartland and the reduced impact of imported diseases on the east coast and through mesoamerica.
Remove Disease
I wasn't thinking personal experience or a separate 'book' of spells. Honestly, I hadn't really figured out the exact details of how it would be handled. I don't want it to be that you just know all of them, but I also don't want you to have to a spell known slot on each distinct version, either.
Hmmm... this is spinning off a tangent of ideas. I shall put them below!
Reinfection
I'm not sure if adding axises of contagion/severity is strictly necessary. I mean, we're probably getting too deep into the details of catching diseases at that point. I think we should be fine with a blanket rule regarding reinfection.
I think it would be easiest to say you get a sizable, but not impossible-to-overcome, bonus to saves against a disease you've already overcome. +4?
But then... Maybe it would be easier to go the other way? I mean, by 1750 everyone's been exposed to the main diseases already, there wouldn't be any more rolling plagues that are yet to come. Perhaps being naive to the disease would instead inflict a penalty to saves against it.
Heal
Yes, you have to learn the principles, but remember, this is an era before really precise measurements were possible. Particularly using natural ingredients, which vary widely in potency and concentrations. And it's not all about medicine, either. You need to make judgement calls constantly when caring for a patient long-term, and even first aid is often a matter of judgement. There are rules to follow, yes, but there's a LOT of play in those rules. Even in modern medicine, it's about keen observation and making decisions, and I'm certain it would only have been more important in these days.
I still say it's wisdom, but making it trained only would certainly be a good change.
Columbia
Portugal
The Caribbean is more than 1000 miles from Newfoundland. From the islands Portugal will control, it's probably closer to 1500.
I'm just saying, the Newfoundland fisheries are pretty much out of the European game at this point, thanks to the Vinlandrs.
New Orleans
Well, if it's a mound builder city they're gonna need their own farmers and laborers. Perhaps the area should be mixed. I doubt the french citizenry would be too eager to help build mounds.
Knights Hospitaller
Auberges
Maybe we should clarify the language a bit. A sizable fort run by actual knights (probably knights of obedience), would be an auberge. A lodge is a volunteer house that has food, equipment, and shelter for knights on the road, and serves as a relay station to send messenger birds along to proper auberges.
Moving to the New World
I thought it was more that the knights joined up with the papal state. The pope never took over, they just lent their support to his military campaigns. And sort of became his naval force. I think the knights would remain on Malta, though they would likely yield their other holdings, simply out of interest in maintaining their tradition. Malta itself probably wouldn't be that big of an operation anymore, but they would need at least a little bit of a presence in the old world to continue to recruit more noble membership.
Membership
So, 500 knights of justice, 3000 knights of obedience, and 7000 'enlisted'. Alright, gettin' better.
I like the term 'Maltese' coming to mean people associated with the knights. it would probably be unofficial, though.
Officially... I think they would probably just be referred to as sailors, soldiers, cannoneers, and so on. Though, I do like the term 'Sworn Men'. to refer to them as a whole, or perhaps more officially 'Sworn Men of St. John.'
I think would could make the whole knight of obedience-> Knight of Justice process merit based, if only for the sake of being able to make it a proper prestige class.
Female knights... I think it would be awesome to see these characters, but I'm not sure if it would be historically accurate to have them actually see combat. I have found stuff about females being admitted to knightly orders, but I'm not sure if they actually suited up and rode out.
Here's a question: What's their policy on non-humans? I mean, they may not be as rabidly anti-magic as the inquisition, but would they accept a witchblood, or a trollkin? What about native nonhumans, like tuniit or spirit-born, or even little folk.
Relics
I think the relics could certainly be powerful artifacts! I don't quite know what they would actually do, but they have all the makings of impressive ancient relics.
Knights v. Christians
More or less as BRC said, I think they wouldn't aggressively attack any christian people, but they wouldn't be against fighting them in self defense or in the interest of protecting other groups of christian people.
Language
I dunno, in such a case being a knight would require you to speak three languages, meaning a minimum level of 8. Well, unless we make learning latin a feat or something.
Bio-luminescence
I don't think they would have gotten to breeding them or modifying them, but they certainly could be harnessed. I could imagine there being vials of the glowing water providing light for the fortress, or working as torches, and I also like the idea of 'painting' land targets with a trebuchet-shot full of the glowing water.
However, I think some of the other stuff is going a little overboard. A glowing castle would just make for a great target from the sea, and it would actually make it harder to spot other ships approaching in the dark. Glowing ships also provide clear targets. And the glow of the little cross on the tabard would be pretty soft, like candle-light, not very useful.
Hisatsinom
Spiders
Hmm. I dunno, that still means they would have control over the spiders while in the canyon.
Maybe the two don't interact. Maybe the little spiders just make webs and can be controlled by certain spells, and the big guys are just semi-domesticated tarantulas. Maybe the big ones make the anchor chords the little ones build off and reinforce. Maybe the big guys are divine in nature, sacred animals that are a gift to the hisatsinom, but have nothing to do with the web-spinners.
Roads
I don't think the road system would be spider web shaped in any major way, it would just be an organic development of roads through the area. It just kinda sorta resembles a web if you look at it right, and the name followed.
I think the roads would have initially arisen as normal roads, but when they started this brisk trade business between the three empires, they started charging tolls for the roads. I don't think there would be guides, the roads would probably be relatively easy to navigate, but I think there should be the option to hire some native escorts to ensure you reach your destination. With all this trade traffic over easily-identified routes, bandits could easily be a problem.
City
Still could use a name for this place.
AHA! Researching the battle of horseshoe bend, I think I found the native name for the place: Tohopeka. It was the name of the native camp there at the battle, and I can't find any other name for it.
Spell Versions
Well, here's the promised tangent.
We're going to be making three different spell books at the moment, so this is an opportunity to rework some aspects of spells. This was inspired by the remove disease spell, but I think it could also be applied to other things, too.
So, taking remove disease as an example. You would learn the remove disease spell, but there would be different versions that apply to different diseases. When you first learn it, you get one. Cholera, for example. If you want to learn the one for Typhoid, you would have to find a text that describes it or learn it from someone else who knows it, the same way you would normally add spells to your spell book/prayer book, though they wouldn't take up spell known slots.
This could easily be applied to other spells, as well, and could be used to describe cultural differences between spells. Like, one culture's version may do more damage, but the other culture's lasts longer, or has a rider effect of some sort. Some cultures just may have access to better versions of certain spells due to increased research on the subject. Like Cahokian ironwood, or Hisatsinom wind walls. We could even roll a mechanic into it that allows you to upgrade a spell to the next level. So, there's no longer summon monster I-IX spells, you'd learn I, then when you got the chance to learn a new spell level, you could upgrade it and count the lower-level options as lesser versions, learning a new spell in the old slot instead.
E6
I think e6 would be a perfectly valid way to play this, but I think we should continue to stick with the classic E20 for the basis of the game.
EDIT: I am SO GLAD for the autosave feature in the new layout. I was done with everything but the Hisatsinom stuff when I accidentally closed the window. That would have been thoroughly unpleasant...
AtlanteanTroll
2014-05-22, 12:10 AM
You know, you might be onto something there!
So far, everything we've designed has been done with Lv. 20 as the capstone, but if we're going for gritty realism and a relatively low-magic setting that doesn't conflict too much with actual history, then the E6 (epic at Lv 6) would be an elegant solution. There would be no need to worry about high-level spells changing history too much, because they wouldn't even exist.
Plus, E6 worked pretty well for Mangles' Stralia setting, if you're familiar with it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?241090-Stralia-A-3-5-E6-setting-(PEACH)
I guess the only problems are that we'd have to redesign/shorten a lot of classes we've designed, and a lot of monsters would have impossibly high CRs as a result.
...well OK, now that I think about it, those are actually some pretty severe changes we'd have to make. So maybe we just leave 20 as the definition of "epic". But I DO like the idea of someone running an e6 variant-campaign in the Crossroads universe!
When everything is all said and done and the project is finished, I'd definitely find it fun to participate. (As either a player of GM.)
And to arbitrarily weigh in on Heal, I think it's much better suited to being a Wisdom based skill. As Admiral Squish said, the art of healing really isn't a science yet. Plus, the way someone from Fusang, someone from Cahokia, and a Columbian immigrant from Europe are all going to take wildly different approaches. Approaches, that frequently, will resemble nothing like our current medicine.
Spell Versions
I like this idea!
Admiral Squish
2014-05-22, 12:39 PM
Hey guys, just wanna drop a link here, I've posted the very barest-bones version of the Runecaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351056-Runecaster-Crossroads-Rough-Draft) over in the homebrew forum, I hope you'll all swing over and weigh in.
Steckie
2014-05-22, 04:47 PM
Knights Hospitaller
Membership
Merit-based promotions will probably be easier to use ingame. Every Knight starts out as a Knight of Obedience, the best ones become Knights of Justice eventually. Do you still want them to become minor nobles when promoted to Knight of Justice?
We could still have Knights that come from nobility back in Malta.
I like Sworn Men of St John better than just Sworn Men as an official title. The full title will probably only get used on official occasions.
Non-humans: as long as they're Christian and they are good enough to become Knights, i don't think they will object much to including a non-human. They will probably discriminate, make racist remarks and be complete ***** about it, but in the end they are forced by their oaths to protect fellow Christians and to let fellow Christians that meet the criteria join the Order.
Language
What if we give every character that has a Papal education (monks, priests, Knights, Inquisitors,...) Latin as a bonus language?
After all, in 1750 Latin is the official language in the church. All masses are done in Latin, even those for commoners. All Europeans will probably have a base understanding of spoken Latin. And if you get a Papal education you will need to learn Latin so you can perform masses.
Bioluminescence
You probably have a point about the fortress and the ships.
Perhaps it's just the Maltese Cross on the sails of the ships can glow when the captain activates it? And the glow of the Maltase cross on the armor can be as bright as we want it to be.
This would mostly be intimidation though, not much use beyond that. If the Maltese Cross lights up, it means things are going to get dangerous.
The Knights are an army of badasses, they have a great reputation, they're well trained and they will beat you down if they feel you deserve it.
If they light up their cross it means they're about to show you why they have that reputation.
Oh, and while i'm on the subject: i'd love for the Knights to be combat pragmatists. Sure they have their knightly oaths, but they will stab you in the back if it will give them an edge. Their main oath is defending all Christians. If that means doing a pre-emptive surprise attack on a pirate's nest, so be it.
I'd also love them to be famous for their nightly attacks. That would fit great with the bioluminescence. They are great fighters during the day, but facing them during the night is almost a certain death warrant. The last thing you see is a Maltese Cross flaring up, and a sword reflecting that light coming straight at you.
Hisatsinom
Spiders
Is it that bad that the Hisatsinom can partly control the spider swarms in the Grand Canyon? It's only one place where they are that powerfull. The mundane spiders don't leave the canyon, not even the magical ones can force them out.
That would make the Hisatsinom very powerfull inside the Grand Canyon, but everybody around them knows that and avoids the Grand Canyon if they can.
Spell Versions
About the cultural spells: are you going to put a limit on the amount of cross-culture spells one character can take? Savvy players will quickly find a way to get all the most powerfull versions in their spellbook.
If a wizard wants to cast a Remove Disease: Cholera spell, does he have to prepare that specific spell in advance?
What effect will this have on spontaneous casters?
If a wizard wants to cast a Remove Disease: Cholera spell, does he have to prepare that specific spell in advance?
What effect will this have on spontaneous casters?
My understanding is that there is one healing spell, but it is only effective against diseases you have encountered or have sufficient knowledge to counter. So you start off with Cure Disease: Cholera, and at the next opportunity, you can gain another disease, say Typhoid. So you can now combat two diseases. At least that is my understanding of this subject.
I could definetly see the Knights as combat pragmatists. The typical Knight is much more likely to be a swarthy cutlass-and-pistol wielding Marine or a frontiersman than a towering figure with heavy armor and a greatsword. They're not used to glorious pitched battles on open plains so much as brutal ambush attacks out in the wilderness.
The Knights of Legend may have rode boldy towards their enemies, banners waving in the air. But the Knights who survive to TELL the legends are only doing that because they've got a hired band of Cahokian Sharpshooters hiding in the bushes.
as for Bioluminescence during Nighttime Attacks, That is an awesome image.
I could see the Knights getting a ship into position, then lighting up the cross on the sail. Perhaps they even magically enhance the light, using it to blind their night-adjusted foes.
Or just as an intimidation tactic.
You're on watch on your pirate ship, you think you see a ship out in the gloom.
Suddenly, three Crosses light up, illuminating three ships with guns trained on you.
The Knights are here, it is already too late.
What do Knight's do with captured pirates? Hang them? Turn them over to the authorities (For hanging), imprison them? Sentence them to years of hard labor on St. Croix?
SuperDave
2014-05-23, 09:57 AM
Sorry for the long silence; I'm having a devil of a time keeping up with this thread, now that I'm forcing myself not to look at it while I'm at work.
Looks like there have been a TON of new developments while I was gone. I feel like there's not even that much to add, honestly. You guys are so smart and so well-informed on so many subjects, I can hardly think of an idea of my own to throw on the pile. But I'll weigh in on the major points.
Knights Hospitaller
I'm really glad that someone came up with this idea, because I was honestly worried that since the only Church organization we'd fleshed out was the Scarred Monks, that the Church would be painted as a major villain in this setting. Which is something we definitely don't want! Kudos to Steckie for bringing them up!
Maryland would be a great place to set up (I can't believe I didn't think of this before). It is an English colony for Catholics.
Good point.
New Orleans could be the Lange for Christianized natives, as the city is a blend of Euro and Native culture.
Ooh, good point! I concur! I'm actually surprised that Christianized natives hadn't come up yet.
Spanish Chesapeake Colonies
While this would have been cool, I think that the crowd is right: the garrison would be completely surrounded by the English, difficult to protect, and Spain wouldn't have the outrageous wealth it was accustomed to in our own timeline to support them from afar. Maybe if Crossroads took place about a century earlier, the PCs could've played a role in its founding and growth...
Hisatsinom City
I am loving this idea to death, and I'd be happy to try my hand at drawing it up, if someone wants to use MS Paint to tell me where all the different neighborhoods are. (But maybe first I should finish the "Aztatlan in the 1750s" map that Aux-Ash sent me a writeup for a few months ago, huh? :smallredface:)
Speaking of maps, I've been thinking that I may have to redraw the Tuniitaq map. :smallmad: Nouvelle France should be on the Columbia map, and I feel like Mammutcha would be one of the "unaffiliated" areas. Plus, where does Novorassi fit in, since it's neither Chinese nor European nor Native? (Oh, and I'm working on a rough map of all the five major regions plus the unaffiliated ones in MS paint. I'll let you guys know when it's done.)
I really like the idea of a North Vespuccian Silk Road! I suspect that their use of silk would strain their relations with Fusang, but they still might want to trade for the other's particular brand of silk. Is silkworm thread very different from spider-silk? Would one of them be stronger or more durable, or less beautiful when woven, than the other?
I totally want to play a wizard with a sentient, extremely-cuddly tarantula familiar, who has absolutely no idea why it seems to freak out everybody else.
"The Web Below" makes more sense as a name for their road system, I agree. Maybe that could be the name the call their own nation? If they're used to roads, then travelling beyond them would be like walking off the edge of the world. It would be Where the Sidewalk Ends (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/113872-there-is-a-place-where-the-sidewalk-ends-and-before), in a literal sense!
Without a guide a non-Hisatsinom person travelling the roads would probably get lost really quickly.
I like this idea, too.
Heal as a Skill
I like where you're headed with this. And you're right, Heal is pretty useless as it's written in the books. I like the idea of rolling Heal to learn more about diseases, and the idea that it should be trained-only.
Your spells look good, too! I think 8th level might be too high for remove disease, though. It's one of the most useful and in-demand skills a spellcaster could learn, so they'd learn it early. Plus, 8th-level characters are too rare to change the course of history like we need them to in order for this setting to work. But I definitely want to give all three of your spells a full writeup.
Palanan is right, your ideas for more-dangerous diseases might require a whole subsystem. I'm willing to donate my time and energy to making that happen, but we want to be careful with it: diseases are not fun for players to have, and forcing them to constantly deal with them, while more realistic, could easily bog down a campaign in minutiae of calculating infection and immunity. Still, I think it's worth discussing in a serious way!
If you haven't seen it, or have a really good description of what to do, the spell fails, and maybe at most, buys the infected momentary relief. This means that there is a drive for expanding ones grasp of the healing arts both for a Heal skill as well as the spell itself.
What if your ability to cast healing spells was tied in some way to your talent with the Heal skill? It would make sense that a wizard who faints at the sight of blood wouldn't be able to heal you as effectively as a shaman who has decades of experience with medicine and the healing arts.
How about drawing up a of contagion for diseases so that some diseases (like the cold) have high contagion rate, but a lower risk, while other conditions are always a risk after first infection, while others are more of a catch once, low survival rate, but afterwards there will be no problems afterwards. So you'll have two axis: Contagion, and Severity.
Sounds like the basis of a disease subsystem to me! Though BRC (I think it was BRC?) was right when he pointed out that players totally would weaponize their diseases. Then again, that's not impossible with the current system, either, so we wouldn't really be bringing up anything new.
Do we have Skinwalkers in this setting?
We do, in fact. They're a prestige class for Native characters. But there doesn't appear to be a link to them in the main page...
Disease
Heal:
I definitely think that the heal skill should have a larger role in the game. I could certainly imagine making it a trained only skill, but I don't think it would be a knowledge skill. Firstly, it would work very differently than any other knowledge skills, which is its own issue. Secondly, the healing is less about your ability to learn than it is about judgement and accumulated knowledge, it seems more of a wisdom skill than an intelligence one. Estimating dosages, making calls about the course of treatment, and so on. This would particularly apply to this setting, where medicine's not truly a science yet.
As for "wis-based vs. int-based", why don't you as Mom for her opinion in the matter? She's been a nurse for almost twice as long as either of us has been alive.
As for zoonosis, it's still a big problem now and it was a big problem in 1750. Maybe for every animal that gets (re)designed we add a short list of common diseases they carry?
I've actually been thinking that we should redo a lot of the Animals of the Americas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?295763-Animals-of-the-Americas-A-Library-of-Uncommon-Creatures) list to give them actual Pathfinder statblocks. That would be a HUGE project, but I guess it'll have to happen eventually. Anyone who wants to help out with that is welcome to try their hand!
Fusang
I'm actually a little sad to see the conversation on Fusang come to an end (at least for now), since I did all this research on cool places for the players to visit while they're in the neighborhood. It's not really much related to cities or settlements, mostly interesting locations like Mount St. Helens and Crater Lake.
[This post is pretty enormous already, so I'll just post a list of the locations-of-interest after I get back from camping.]
By the way, before we move completely off Fusang, we never decided on a very important detail: where are the borders of Fusang's provinces, and what are the primary industries of each? I feel like it would be impractical for them to just follow the straight-line borders of the modern states of British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, and California, and kind of arbitrary besides. So where do we draw the new borders, and how many provinces are there?
Mavakith, do you have any thoughts on this?
TheWombatOfDoom
2014-05-23, 11:39 AM
As for "wis-based vs. int-based", why don't you as Mom for her opinion in the matter? She's been a nurse for almost twice as long as either of us has been alive.
By the way, before we move completely off Fusang, we never decided on a very important detail: where are the borders of Fusang's provinces, and what are the primary industries of each? I feel like it would be impractical for them to just follow the straight-line borders of the modern states of British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, and California, and kind of arbitrary besides. So where do we draw the new borders, and how many provinces are there?
Mavakith, do you have any thoughts on this?
Well, I've read your whole post (as my lurking self often does here) and I have two things to respond to!
1: You and Squish are brothers? :smalleek: I had no idea!
2: Well for borders, we could go a natural route. For me, I tend to look at the map and break it up into chunks. Then I figure which chunks they would definately have, and which chunks they would definately not have, and which chunks would be contested or go either way. The border goes along the middle of a contested region, or roll/fluff which area has which region and draw the border to suit it.
Chunks could be anything from mountain regions, to the border along a river, to various towns and the surrounding area, forests, plains, ect. Think of it as a small scale risk board, and...:smalleek: That would be cool...a Crossroads Risk set....
Also, my map maker within me is screaming to come back out...we should really chat sometime.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-23, 12:45 PM
Okay, just a quick post before I go do errands, I'll be back with a full post later in the day.
Oh, yeah, me and superdave are brothers. I always figured it was obvious. I suppose I never outright said superdave is my brother, but I do refer to him as bro and mention talking to him offline periodically. But yeah, definitely related.
I just posted some detailed write ups of some of the crossroads system changes over in homebrew! I finished 'em last night and took the time to post 'em today. I'd love for you guys to swing by and check 'em out!
Subjective Alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351236-Subjective-Alignment-Crossroads)
Value Points/Haggling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351237-Value-Points-Crossroads)
Character Points (Gear Reduction) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351238-Character-Points-Crossroads-Gear-Reduction-System) I could actually use some input on this one, I'd like to be able to replace armor/shield/weapon enhancement bonuses, but I haven't figured out how to do that while dealing with the scaling price of effective enhancement bonuses. I would love to be able to mechanically encourage players to get weapons with special abilities rather than enhancement bonuses, but I also don't want to halve the total price of the weapon.
Runecaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351056-Runecaster-Crossroads-Rough-Draft) rough draft is still up, too, I just want to be sure I've got the solid foundation before going further into the glyphs.
Steckie
2014-05-24, 07:11 AM
Knights Hospitaller
I'm really loving where we're going with the Knights and the way they fight.
These guys are a lawfull good organisation that have sworn to protect the Faith and they will get their hands dirty to do just that. They will stab a pirate in the back without warning. They will set fire to a house to smoke them out. They will use the bioluminescense on their ships to blind their foes (the equivalent of throwing sand in their eyes).
It's very refreshing to see an honorable knightly order whose members are very pragmatic while fighting.
I also like them having a pistol and cutlass while fighting on a ship, but i would also have them keep their traditional heavy armor, sword and shield to fight on land.
Captured pirates: I imagine they will hang all heathen pirates and the captain/officers of Christian pirateships while the crew is either forced to work on plantations of the Knights or conscripted into the crew of a Knights ship.
Hisatsinom
Vespuccian Silk Road
I imagine it starts somewhere around the San Fransisco bay (don't remember the Fusangese name), goes into Tohopeka and from there it branches out towards the south, east and north. Fusangese silk traders buy stands on the Tohopeka silk market at ridiculously high prices for just the chance to compete with the spider silk. They still make huge profits on their own silk, despite the costs and they bring back spider silk to Fusang.
Things to do: names for both kinds of silk.
Maybe Ongtupqa Silk for the spider kind.
For the Fusangese Silk name i can't think of anything.
Properties of both kinds of silk, wich one is used for what? Strenghts/weaknesses?
The Web Below
This could definetly work as the name for their nation.
Let's sum up a bit: we have the Hisatsinom people living in The Web Below (do we translate this name?) with Tohopeka as it's capital.
They build huge cities in Cliffs, trade silk, are the distribution point for the Vespuccian Silk Road and due to their huge road system they're a Crossroads for a lot of other trade going through the continent. They're also famous for their Wind Mages.
They're fiercely independant but constantly courted by Cahokia to join their league. The Fusangese would love to get their hands on the whole of the Silk trade and the Triple Alliance is probably keeping war parties close to the borders to make sure the other two don't try anthing funny and perhaps to do an invasion themselves if there's an opportunity.
The result is that those three big players are balanced and played out against each other by the Hisatsinom in order to keep the statues quo. And to keep the trade flowing.
Sounds like a great region to play a game in.
The Great Basin
We still haven't got anything for this place.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-24, 12:09 PM
So, first, I apologize for not being able to weight in properly yesterday like I promised, but I think you're gonna like what I was doing instead.
Hunter Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351446-Hunter-Base-Class-Crossroads)
So, in a fit of inspiration, I sat down and cranked out no less than 50 tactics options. I also took the opportunity to reformat the table, and now I've reposted the whole dang thing, and it's DONE. I mean, there might still be some editing to do and balance that needs tweaking, but it's actually a complete class with all the options finished. Took me long enough...
I'll be writing the full post up through the day.
If we want different properties for spider silk versus silk worm silk, maybe the spider silk is a stronger material, but it does not work well for fashionable items like clothing, but works wonders as rope and durable fabric to be worked with (parachutes anyone?)
Palanan
2014-05-25, 09:39 AM
Originally Posted by Aux-Ash
[The Portuguese] have [Caribbean] colonies not too far away, doesn't that work? Close enough to be a presence in harbours, but when it comes to colonisation they have Brazil, Goa and Macau to contend with and that's far more lucrative than Newfoundland.
--Except the Portuguese don't have Brasil, because the biomancers blocked them out. Yes? That was my impression, that all of South America was closed off, and thus the Portuguese never developed the system of donatory captaincies that led to the development of pre-independence Brazil.
So Goa and Macau will be all the more important, and the Portuguese will also have their string of trading posts (feitorias) down the West African coast, where a Luso-African mixed culture has been developing for centuries. If Portugal no longer has access to the Grand Bank, then they'll likely have no interest or foothold in the New World whatsoever. If they have a few islands, that's great, but those would be a trivial sideline at best.
Originally Posted by Steckie
That's why i think it's better as a Knowledge skill. People get trained in medicine, they don't just start giving herbs in random quantities and hoping they have effect. They learn the knowledge of the previous generations and apply it. If they're good they expand on that knowledge.
In general I agree with this, and I'd say there should be some synergy with Knowledge (nature) to reflect a study of botany and medicinal herbs.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Figures Wikipedia wouldn't mention the Native Americans coming up with it.
One of countless, countless reasons not to rely on Wikipedia. If I'm researching history, I want to read books written by professional historians with a lifetime of experience analyzing primary documents--not some random anonymous person who did a little "research" and wrote up a wiki article.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Female knights... I think it would be awesome to see these characters, but I'm not sure if it would be historically accurate to have them actually see combat. I have found stuff about females being admitted to knightly orders, but I'm not sure if they actually suited up and rode out.
I'm pretty sure female crusaders did, in fact, see combat. I have an article on that I'll need to dig up.
As for historical accuracy, I think we can bend this one to allow for female characters having an equally active role. My personal approach to this would be to acknowledge them as exceptionally rare--but by the same token, they'll be exceptional enough to win themselves a place in the order.
Originally Posted by Mith
If we want different properties for spider silk versus silk worm silk, maybe the spider silk is a stronger material, but it does not work well for fashionable items like clothing, but works wonders as rope and durable fabric to be worked with (parachutes anyone?)
I may have missed this somewhere above, but how are we training the spiders to produce their webbing so tidily and in such great volume?
There have been a number of attempts to cultivate spiders for silk-farming, and they've usually ended up with one large, well-fed spider in the corner of the depopulated enclosure. If you've ever put a dozen spiders together in a bottle, you'll understand the chaotic scene of free-for-all chitinous carnage.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Oh, yeah, me and superdave are brothers. I always figured it was obvious.
Not remotely. It's quite the surprise for me.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-25, 12:16 PM
MATERIAL
Still got all these things that could use more review:
Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351446-Hunter-Base-Class-Crossroads) The fully-completed version of one of the big, common classes of the setting.
Runecaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351056-Runecaster-Crossroads-Rough-Draft) Which is still mostly just me trying to puzzle out the details of the runecasting system before getting too far into it.
Character Points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351238-Character-Points-Crossroads-Gear-Reduction-System) the gear-reduction system that replaces 'standard' adventure gear.
Value Points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351237-Value-Points-Crossroads) A full description of the value points that replace gold.
Subjective Alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351236-Subjective-Alignment-Crossroads) A description of how alignment works in the crossroads setting and how it deals with spells.
Heal
I did actually consult mom on the question, and she supports the wisdom-based idea. At the time European medicine was still on the miasma theory. Most medical knowledge is matter of personal experience or second-hand from a master physician to a student.
so, trained only, synergy with knowledge nature. Maybe we could add something to survival to let you gather herbs to replace medical supplies?
Knights
Membership
You know, I don't know if they would become nobles. I mean, being a knight means oath of chastity. They (at least most) wouldn't have heirs to pass a title along to. You serve for life, so it's not like you're gonna retire at some point. I think the knights might make it an official nobility, though those granted it wouldn't have any real authority or power, particularly in the new world where nobility is becoming less and less important.
Sworn Men of St. John sounds pretty good.
There certainly are myths of unusual individuals becoming knights, such as the one with a dog's head, and one of a giant if memory serves. I suspect these gus would make cool NPCs.
Language
Hmm. I could see some sort of papal education feat. Probably could even be a culture feat for European (continental). Grants latin, and literacy in the latin alphabet, and a significant bonus to know (religion).
Bioluminescence
...Okay, I gotta admit, lighting up the sails/tabard sounds pretty awesome. However, I don't think it's a bioluminescence thing. The bioluminescence is a soft, otherworldly glow. I think such a glow would work well for lighting aboard their ships and in the New Malta fortresses. But the light you're describing is too bright and too controlled. I think that would best be represented as a light spell enchanted into the tabard/sails. Maybe they can even flash it to disorient opponents.
Imagine a dark battlefield. suddenly a cross flashes as a sword comes down and takes first blood. Then another, and another, like flashes of lighting, each burst of light illuminating a snapshot of a knight coming in for the kill. How many are there? Where are they? A soldier panics, and turns to run, just as a cross lights up in front of them, gleaming off the raised blade of a knight...
Pragmatic Combat
Well, I could certainly see the advantages of such an outlook. I think there would still be some rules regarding conduct in combat, but I imagine all their time in the new world could have relaxed the old world standards a bit.
Class
We should probably start discussing the class itself at this point.
Prerequisites: You need to speak Latin (Conversational? Fluent?), you need to be sworn to the order, which might be a feat, and you need to be Good-aligned.
Benefits: You get a Maltese Falcon companion/familiar/thing, a Tabard of St. John...
I'm thinking the class would also have a code, like the paladin code, with actual rules spelled out.
I also think a knight character could start as a sworn man, and become a knight of obedience when they enter the class, then upgrade to knight of justice at the halfway point.
Should there be different kinds of knights represented? Possibly priests, warriors, and sailors, or maybe going with the classical types, military, healing, and evangelism.
Hisatsinom
Spiders
Well, if we make the spiders limited to the canyon, then no other hisatsinom group will be able to make the spider silk, and I don't think one city is gonna be able to develop the techniques for textiles like this all by themselves. It's a pretty big concept.
Okay, I got it. The normal spiders can't produce anchor cables strong enough to span the canyons. The darwin's bark spider makes the strongest spiderweb in the world, and their webs will sometimes span up to 25 M, but the canyons are hundreds of feet across. The big spiders are magical in nature, and produce the thick, super-strong cables that the smaller spiderwebs are built off of. In exchange, they get a share of the food from the webs built off their cables. Once the main cables are done, the little spiders maintain them with a protective sheathe of their own silk.
The priests use a special spell (or version of a spell) to summon/control a swarm of the little spiders. While controlling them, they can control each spider's movement and spinning. They can use this to harvest the fibers from them or to simply have them move in certain ways to create different kings of textiles. They will often use the cables from the big spiders as a core or structure for the little ones to work over.
In the cities, the little spiders just live all over. The big spiders are closer to the humans, more like cats. And I definitely imagine a hisatsinom character with a cuddly tarantula.
Great Basin
I was imagining that the Hisatsinom culture would more-or-less supplant the native (southwest) culture, but further research indicated that the ancient pueblo peoples existed pretty much all throughout the great basin area, too. Should they occupy both areas? Should the Hisatsinom region be sandwiched between the two?
Silk
Okay, I found out, with a little research, there are exactly two garments made of pure spider silk in the world, silk milked from golden orb weaver spiders in Madagascar. The golden orb family make silk with a natural golden hue, and it's quite lovely in fabric. Very shiny. It's a different kind of sheen than silk, though. The silk itself is a very different animal, however. A floor-length cape of it was reportedly so light that you could hardly notice wearing it, and they even had people close their eyes and guess which hand they had set the tassel on. Those who could guess said it was only because of the warmth.
Spider silk fibers are cylindrical in shape, and composed of protein strings that stretch between thousands of tiny crystals. Silkworm silk is triangular, doesn't have the crystals, and uses different proteins. Silkworm silk is more prism-like, which gives the silk that characteristic silky shine. So, spider-silk cloth is extremely strong, extremely lightweight, and very stretchable. It does have a nasty habit of dramatically shrinking (called hyper-contraction, and will reduce the fiber lengths by up to 50%) when wet, though it loosens back up once dry. Not sure what that would do to a weave...
We should figure out the exact traits of the Histasinom spider silk. Does it have a natural color? Does it sparkle, or shine? What are the stats of spider silk rope/cloth? Can it be used for weaving, or is it only good for rope/cord?
The Web Below
I think a hisatsinom road system would be no more difficult to navigate than any other, they might have even expanded the main corridors that go from tohopeka into the three main trade directions, making it more-or-less idiot-proof for those passing through.
I think the web below could refer to the nation, the road system, and the trade routes that move the silk. Probably a relatively recent naming convention, as the silk trade really started to take off.
Spell Versions
Cross-culture spells will be more difficult to learn. I'm not sure how, honestly, but that's the general idea. Also, most cross-culture spells won't be available to just anyone, you've gotta be pretty friendly with someone who knows it, or find it in a particular library.
My take on it was that you would prepare the spell as a specific version, rather than just a general version. So, remove disease wouldn't work on any disease you know, you'd have to identify it, then treat it.
Disease
Nobody's commented on the potentially revolutionary idea of the engineered medicine disease...
Fusang
If memory serves, we were planning on something like 6 or seven, centered on various capital cities. The sasu qua'che forests of the north, jade harbor, then (real-world names) Longview, Eureka, San Francisco, and San Diego. Maybe another district in baja california that barely counts as 'under control'.
The forests are sort of ceded to the sasu qua'che as a nature preserve. Jade harbor is the government center and is relatively wealthy due to the gold.
Longview's district is mostly farming and agriculture, food grows very well in the volcanic soil around st. helens, and the city is also a center of art and trade with inland native groups.
Eureka's district produces lumber, ships, and military goods and soldiers. Huge training center there.
San Francisco, Golden Harbor, is very wealthy thanks to trade. They're positioned well to trade into the hisatsinom area, and are the centerpoint between jade harbor and the haiyuanren traders in aztatlan.
San Diego's district is less rich than Golden harbor, and is largely controlled by the same groups of merchants. It's much more lawless, and it gets the bulk of trade from spanish traders who came across panama.
Miscellaneous:
Brotherhood
Well, yes, we are most certainly brothers. He's two years older than I.
I suppose, in hindsight, it probably only seemed obvious to me 'cause I already knew.
Though, we did reveal as much during a few of the skype meetings.
Skinwalkers
I actually removed them, I'm not actually satisfied with how they turned out when I look back. A limited number of animals, not even broad enough to span all of north america, and it didn't really work properly for prereqs, either, it didn't advance medicine man abilities and you couldn't get into it from the brute. Overall, definitely something to remake, though I might be replacing it with the tonal/totemic race.
Skype
Speaking of skype, this month ends in in the middle of next weekend. Do you guys want to have the meeting on the 31st/1st weekend, or the 7th/8th weekend? And who wants in on this one?
I don't think there should be a Knight class.
Well, there should be a Knight of Malta PrC, but I wouldn't make ALL knights share a class. The captain of a Hospitallier Pirate Hunter is just as much as Knight as a man patrolling the Frontier for bandits. The first may be a Rogue or Fighter, with the latter as a Ranger.
Pokonic
2014-05-25, 01:09 PM
Well, there should be a Knight of Malta PrC, but I wouldn't make ALL knights share a class. The captain of a Hospitallier Pirate Hunter is just as much as Knight as a man patrolling the Frontier for bandits. The first may be a Rogue or Fighter, with the latter as a Ranger.
Seconding this. The Knights are a specific organization that would have specialized abilities and training that would be hard to reproduce, which, in essence, hits two of major qualifications of a good PrC. I mean, if a player wished to be a armor-and-sword knight guy with a moral code, the Pathfinder knight class pretty much covers that. But a 'knight' in this context could be a Ranger or even just a Aristocrat with the right amount of prestige in the same way a 'priest' could be a Paladin or a Cleric or somesuch.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-25, 01:47 PM
Sorry, I should have been more clear. It's definitely going to be a prestige class, not a base class. They're nowhere near populous or common enough to be full base class. I'm also considering feats that let one
Classes
I feel I should clarify something about classes in the crossroads setting, if only to ensure that everyone's on the same page.
Most of the traditional classes are out, to be replaced by new versions, or more general classes. Too many of them have abilities that just don't fit with the themes of the setting, and others just don't have a place anymore in a world like this one, and some just need a little re-flavoring and mechanical readjustment. For example, sorcerer has various bloodlines with sources that don't exist in this setting. Monk's being replaced by martial artist. Barbarian, Fighter, and Paladin are being replaced by the brute.
If you'll look to the player options post in the first post, there's a list of both the original base classes that we're making for the setting and traditional classes that fit well enough to be used. Of course, the lists are always open to discussion, but at the moment, what's written there is the plan.
Steckie
2014-05-25, 04:26 PM
Knights Hospitaller
Language
Papal education feat could work, but it's going to be a big restriction for some characters.
I seem to remember Latin being the language used in every single mass. And that was only changed somewhere in the second half of the 20th century.
Basically this means that every single priest, knight, inquisitor or whatever needs to take that feat.
Maybe it's best to give Papal education as a bonus to every knight, priest and inquisitor.
Or make it into a trait?
Bioluminescense
The bioluminescent sails and crosses can be magically enhanced. In fact, they need to be magical somehow if the captain or knight can activate them.
So while the normal bioluminescense used for lighting distributes a continuous illumination that can't be shut off, the sails and crosses are enhanced so that they can be controlled and give a lot more light. Even a blinding flash. They can also make it glow in the normal way if they want to, but most of the time they just keep it dark and then suddenly light it up to intimidate their foes.
It's their signature.
Prestige class
I'd allow neutral Knights as well, they swear their oaths and keep those oaths, but they need to do some questionable things to be able to keep those oathts from time to time.
I agree that they need a code.
Maltese falcon, i'd make that optional, a feat maybe. Not everybody likes an animal companion.
Hisatsinom
Silk
Spider silk contracts by 50% when wet? That's awesome!
It even gives me an idea: the Hisatsinom Cliff Cities use this property to haul huge or heavy loads up and down the Cliffs. They tie a spider silk rope to a heavy load, apply water to it and then watch as the load simply rises in the air because the rope shrinks. They just need to calculate the length of the rope to have it end up at the correct height.
Basically, an elevator.
Using the spider silk without having it shrink can only be done if they treat it to become waterproof. That's probably possible using mundane means.
It's probably good for weaving, if it weren't it wouldn't be much competition for silkworm silk.
Silkworm silk is probably the 'prettiest', giving a shiny fabric that's very strong but not as elastic.
Spider silk doesn't shine, is equally strong but very elastic. Natural color probably white-ish?
Spiders
Keeping the spiders native to the Grand Canyon limits it to the Hisatsinom area, not to just Tohopeka.
Tohopeka is north of the Grand Canyon and there are probably other cities nearby. Plus with the well developed trade network going through The Web Below they can send that silk everywhere to get processed.
Unprocessed spider silk is probably sold as well.
The Web Below
I agree, it's perfect for the name for both the nation and the road system. Maybe not for the silkroad. The Fusangese probably wouldn't call it that, they are arrogant about their own silk and wouldn't name the trade route after a rival kind of silk. Europeans wouldn't call it that either, they already have experience with a Silk Road. And the name Web Below is rooted in the Hisatsinom religion about Grandmother Spider and The Web Above, people from a culture with another religion probably wouldn't want to use that name for a trade route going through their lands.
Disease
Engineered medicine disease would work, but if it's that easy to figure out (the way you put it the natives did it pretty quickly) why hasn't any other culture done it before? The Black Death and any other epidemic would change dramatically with something like this.
I don't have any idea on how to solve this one yet....
Spell Versions
Would you need to succeed at a Heal check to identify the disease before you can cast a remove disease spell?
Other than that i like the idea about cross-culture spells.
Maybe upon character creation you can take 1 cross-culture spell for every 3 character levels. Any other cross-culture spells will have to be obtained ingame and be limited to GM discretion.
Maybe a feat called 'well travelled' or something like that wich gives you 2 more cross-culture spells and some extra skill ranks in knowledge geography or something similar?
Classes
I'm missing the Bard on the list on the first page.
And actually, i miss the alchemist as well. Alchemy was very popular in Europe around that time, so i think the class would fit. It would need some changes though.
Cavalier could fit as well.
Paladin would be a weird fit under brute. No aura's, no channeling, no lay on hands, no spells. The paladin is about a lot more than just hitting things.
Not saying you should put in the paladin as it is, it wouldn't fit like that (especially that disease immunity). But something paladin-ish would fit i think.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-26, 01:54 AM
Knights Hospitaller
Language
I think if papal education is made into a culture feat for all the European cultures, I don't think it would be particularly painful for knights/inquisitors/priests to acquire. It's not like they're going to have a whole lot of non-European members.
Bioluminescence
I mean, magically enhancing the bioluminescence... why not just drop the bioluminescence? It would be easy enough just to make it a straight-up magic effect. Besides, I don't think the bioluminescence would survive once the sea water was dried out. Naturally, it's only a soft glow when it's disturbed by movement in the water, we're already pushing it to have it glow bright enough to see by, and have it glow without movement. A magical light effect just makes more sense in my mind.
Prestige Class
Ehh. I mean, these guys are supposed to be the purely-good counterbalance to the inquisition. I don't think they would be quite THAT accepting.
I think the falcon thing is probably going to be fine. if they don't want to do anything with it, it can disappear into hammer-space like an unused familiar.
Hisatsinom
Silk
I know! I learn the craziest stuff researching this game.
You know, thinking about it, I don't think that would work quite like that. It would shrink each fiber on contact, yes, but unless you uniformly wet all the fibers, they would shrink unevenly, which would strain some fibers and not others, possibly even leading to tearing.
Additionally, while they do shrink 50%, the fibers still stretch, though only half as far (the fiber will stretch up to 5x its relaxed length before breaking, the length of the initial fiber being reduced 50% when wet). They would have to load it the exact same amount each time to ensure the fiber would stretch to the same length. The stretchiness of the fiber would make it difficult at best.
I think it should probably be possible to waterproof a spidersilk garment or item with some sort of alchemical substance or maybe even something as simple as an oil treatment or covering it in some kind of sap, or something.
Spider silk probably shines a bit, it's a very fine fiber, and very long. It would be very smooth, with very few loose or ragged ends. It just wouldn't have the impressive, shimmering look of silkworm silk.
I think a base white color would probably work.
I find evidence of cotton fabrics in Mesoamerica, but I can't seem to find anything north of the Aztecs. They might well have traded some weaving techniques north to the Hisatsinom. If the Hisatsinom had no weaving techniques, the silk likely would have only been used in ropes and cords pre-contact, until they traded for large-scale looms from the Fusangren. Either way, before they got large-scale weaving, the silk was very useful as ropes and some simple clothes, but it likely wouldn't have been a major trade good until they could start producing it faster and in greater quantities.
Spiders
Technically, limiting the spiders to the grand canyon would prevent them from living in Tohopeka, as it's not quite in the grand canyon.
We could say the spiders can only live in significant numbers in the river canyons of the whole Colorado watershed and connected canyons.
Perhaps their food source only lives in the canyons above the rivers, something like mayflies, or perhaps something larger, like bats or birds?
Web Below
I could see the road system and the nation being referred to as a whole as the web below, though it occurs to me that each individual city-state would still maintain some independence, sort of like american states to the federal government.
There should be a term for such a trade system, though, even if it's not
Colorado River
Something that's occurred to me: The current water level of the Colorado river is significantly lower than it would have been in the past. Historically, it moved something like 22,500 cubic feet of water per second on average, making it second only to the Mississippi in flow. With all the dams on it now, apparently it doesn't even reach the ocean anymore. There's a new initiative thing going on that's actually helping the problem, but even in this case, it's something like 1/10th the flow.
The point being that the water level in the images of the grand canyon would be significantly raised, the water would be less green and more red, due to natural sediment coloration, and there would be a much greater supply of fish. There might well be no slope along the bottom for farming, and all the people may have to live in the walls. It's certainly doable, though I'm not sure where their food supply would come from anymore. Fishing's a good start, but it wouldn't be able to feed the whole city.
Disease
Well, it's sort of arisen out of a few factors.
One, the knowledge of variolation already existed, which shows that they had an understanding of the principles the medicine plague would work on. In addition, they likely would be able to see that those who survived the plague the first time don't catch it again, quite clearly considering the 90% death rate.
Two, they were in a state of desperation. Creating a magical plague like this had never been attempted before and if it were to get out of control and change, it would only worsen the damage. This was a Godzilla threshold situation. If they didn't do anything, they were facing a near-total annihilation of their people and way of life. A survival rate of ONE IN TWENTY (well, more like one in two, or two in three, for any one specific plague, but even that much is still a terrifying prospect. Just look at the measures taken during the black death.). Literally ANYTHING was a preferable course of action to letting this happen. Even if the medicine plague killed 50% of patients, it's better than the alternative.
Three, the increased availability of magic in the new world would have put them in a better situation to create such a thing by cooperating in numbers. It would also have made it easier for the spell-casters to experiment to create the disease in the first place, thanks to magical safeguards.
And fourth, the black plague in europe wasn't a valid target, as it wasn't transferred human-to-human, it was spread by fleas. I'm not aware of any other significant plagues that would be suitable for such a solution that had already taken place at the time of the setting. Well, beyond very early history. The one previous to the black plague was in 500 or so.
Spell Versions
You know, oddly enough, heal doesn't have a use to identify a disease at the moment. Which is just plain wierd. There's a first-level spell that does it, though. Definitely something to add. But on-point, yes, something like that.
That sounds like a pretty good baseline for how many cross-culture spells to allow.
I could see a feat like that, though maybe it would be a bit more involved than that. Being well-traveled in a world such as this has the potential to be a much greater investment.
Classes
Really? I could have sworn I put the bard in there. I'll add it now.
Alchemist's kind of a maybe. I like the idea, I will admit. There was something that bugged me about it, though...
I don't think cavalier's really suitable. The knight in shining armor on a valiant steed leading the charge... it's not really a valid option anymore. The challenge is no longer a valid tactic. The orders would need the be entirely rewritten. The charge would be lost. I could see making some sort of marshal/tactician class, but the cavalier would need to be almost completely rewritten to work. Plus, it would only exist in european cultures, and it would only be an extremely limited number of them. Not really worth the full base class treatment.
Paladin can definitely fit into the brute. The paladin CONCEPT is really just a warrior with a holy cause. I'm still planning to add a mystic route to the brute to cover paladin/spirit warriors/gishes.
Maybe the brute should have a better name that doesn't make it sound so... brutish. Something relating to strength.
Steckie
2014-05-26, 04:09 PM
Knights Hospitaller
Bioluminescense
Yes, a magical light effect probably makes things easier. It's also a little less special.
"The Knights have improved the native Saint Croix bioluminescense into a signature that can be used as a weapon." or "The Knights have a really bright light spell."
While the effect is the same, the first description sounds a lot more unique and adds more flavor.
Language
Alright, a feat it is then.
Do we give them Maltese as their official language or do we just give each Langue the language of where it's based and make Latin into the official language of the order?
Code and Oath
Been doing some research for this and it's probably impossible to find a unified code that applied to Knights during the Middle Ages (on which the Hospitallers code would be based). I've come across some lists that we could use, the best one in my eyes is the one from the Song Of Roland.
I also have the vow the Knights take currently, but i'm unable to find the historical vow. Don't even know if they changed it or not.
◾To fear God and maintain His Church
◾To serve the liege lord in valour and faith
◾To protect the weak and defenceless
◾To give succour to widows and orphans
◾To refrain from the wanton giving of offence
◾To live by honour and for glory
◾To despise pecuniary reward
◾To fight for the welfare of all
◾To obey those placed in authority
◾To guard the honour of fellow knights
◾To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
◾To keep faith
◾At all times to speak the truth
◾To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
◾To respect the honour of women
◾Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
◾Never to turn the back upon a foe
In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, Amen.
Upon the True Faith of a Christian, may God witness that I hereby vow and dedicate myself as a servant of Christ and the Poor, the first qualification of a True Knight.
I promise to be faithful and loyal to Christ and to be guided by the ideals of the Sovereign Order of St John of Jerusalem: to do everything in my power to contribute to its Glory, Protection, Prosperity, Support and Utility: to combat everything prejudicial to its well-being: never to act contrary to its Dignity, but to conduct myself always as a true Knight of Christ: a good Christian and a person of Honour.
Believing that Christ will grant me a special token of his favour, I therefore, in all Humility, Charity, and Respect agree to join with every sincere and Godly Christian of whatever Church, to bring about by prayer and deed the salvation of the Christian World by helping to promote a lasting Christian Unity.
I will adorn my Knighthood with true Charity, the mother and solid foundation of all virtues.
I will wear on my person the Christian Maltese Cross of eight points, to constantly remind me of my religious vow of always bearing in my heart the Cross of Jesus Christ, adorned with the virtues that attend it.
So help me God.
Hisatsinom
Silk
Good point about the silk, guess the native elevator is out.
I agree with your other points as well, the spider silk weaves should be a relatively new product.
This has the nice side effect of completely taking the Fusangese by surprise. Suddenly a (cheaper?) product of equal quality appears on the markets. I think it's best if spider silk has some benefits over worm silk and the other way around as well. That way we have similar products competing with each having it's own benefits and downsides.
Over the course of a few years the Fusangese silk market loses about half of it's clients. And the other half wants lower prices because there's a cheaper alternative. Suddenly there's a recession. Months later an economic crisis erupts in the parts of Fusang that are dependant on silk production.
The effects of the crisis ripple through the whole of Fusang and leave their effects on the national economy.
I propose we either let that economic crisis hit somewhere around 1720-1730. That way Fusang would have somewhat recovered by the time 1750 comes around and they will have had the time to breed a grudge about whose silk is the best.
And they are very motivated to get their hands on The Web Below.
The Web Below
Yes, each city state would have a lot of independance. Outwardly they try to appear unified, but there's a lot of squabbling between the cities. And while they mostly agree on the big lines, they constantly bicker over the small rules.
They would need a council that makes the decisions, the ruler of Tohopeka is the leader of the council but he only has equal power to the rest. To the outside world the ruler of Tohopeka is the leader of The Web Below, but he can't decide anything without letting the council vote on it.
Colorado River
A higher water level would also mean that boats have a much easier time navigating the river.
Food: Fishing is a good start, yes.
We could have The Web Below import most of their food. That would leave them dependant on the three large nations surrounding them while still trying to remain fiercely independant.
Disease
Alright, i see your point and that could work storywise. They sacrifice part of their population to save the rest. Drastic measures, but they worked.
One question: what's to stop them from weaponising this technique and creating a disease to unleash on the Europeans? As revenge or as a way to clear the lands of them and repopulate.
Heal
Could we remove the diagnose disease spell and give that to the Heal skill? That would at least make things a bit more difficult.
Also, i know you asked your mother who's a nurse, but i am still unconvinced that Heal should be a wisdom based skill.
Everything i read about disease or injuries and how people treated these tells me that most treatments were based in experience. They learned how to solve things one dead patient at a time. Trial and error the hard way.
And all these experiences got passed on from one healer to another. Knowledge increased. People started dissecting corpses to learn more about the human body.
The oldest known text about medicine is from 2000 BCE and is about gynaecological diseases. India and China have very old texts about medicine as well. Hippocrates (the guy from the oath) laid a basis for rational medicine. He started categorising diseases.
The Greeks did brain surgery.
The Aztecs did brain surgery, here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanation_in_Mesoamerica) a link to the wiki article.
The Arabs researched medicine.
In Europe there was a bit of a stagnation during the middle ages because people kept believing wrong theories the ancient people had, but that improved after the black death.
Bacteria were first viewed under a microscope somewhere in the 1670's.
All of this was done through research. Some theories were correct, others weren't. But the end result was that people built on what the people before them had learned and improved on that.
This screams out an intelligence based knowledge skill.
Classes
Alchemist
Alchemy was a very important 'science' during the middle ages. It's what eventually led to Chemistry. Isaac Newton practiced alchemy.
There is some stuff that should probably be changed, but i think the base could fit the setting.
Cavalier
Good points about the Cavalier.
But the sad thing is that now we don't have a class focused on mounted combat. Which would have been really nice to have with all those Great Plains tribes. Plus it would fit the Europeans loving their cavalry, even though it's becoming less important by 1750
Paladin/Brute
If you think it can work, i believe you. I'm not good enough with mechanics for that.
Name: Warrior or Soldier? Both are simple and easy to remember.
One question: what's to stop them from weaponising this technique and creating a disease to unleash on the Europeans? As revenge or as a way to clear the lands of them and repopulate.
That is why I was wondering about Skinwalkers, since they are an outcome of weaponizing a disease. A way around it is to have the plague be of a weak enough version that it is not an effective weapon. Another way is that it is NOT researched, as it is a great sin, and as such will not progress. A bit of railroading, but it can work.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-26, 08:59 PM
Knights Hospitaller
Bioluminescence
They already did weaponize the bioluminescence, in those target-painting things aboard ships. You know, actually, we could make that into a hand-held version, a nonmagical kind of faerie fire splash weapon.
Anyway, the point is, the bioluminescence is cool, but it shouldn't be crammed into things because it kinda fits.
The lighting tabard/sails thing is cool, I just don't think it neatly fits with the bioluminescence. The luminescent organisms would have to be magically engineered to turn on and off with a magical trigger, to be several orders of magnitude brighter, and to survive outside of it's natural seawater environment. In an age where the concept of microscopic organisms was barely understood.
I think, if handled well, a 'really bright light spell' could well be very interesting. What's Cahokia's ironwood if not a 'really strong ironwood spell'? What's the hisatsinom spidersilk other than a 'weird control vermin spell'? It could divine somehow, or have special properties. Maybe the light dazzles evil that looks upon it? Or maybe the flash/daze thing only works on non-christians?
Language
I think we could keep the official language to latin safely. I mean, it has been like a hundred years since they lived on malta, it probably wouldn't have been passed on too strictly.
Code and Oath
I like the code and the oath quite a bit!
Hisatsinom
Silk Trade
I don't think the spider silk would be cheaper than the worms', as the spiders aren't really farmed, so much as harnessed, and it requires magic to do it the easy way, though perhaps there could be some mundane silk-harvesting method, like they did with the orb weavers for the cape.
Worm
Spider
Appearance
Extremely beautiful, lovely shine
Lacks shimmer, though still appears smooth.
Texture
Very soft and smooth
Extremely soft and smooth
Strength
Strong, but loses strength when wet
Astoundingly strong and tough.
Stretch
Once stretched even a bit, it does not retract.
Very stretchy, easily returns to shape
Care
Weakens in sunlight, vulnerable to insects, but does not decay easily.
Requires a waterproof treatment as part of creation process, but repels insects.
Weight
Average weight
Extremely lightweight
Harvesting
Simple, cocoon is boiled, and the loosened silk is pulled off.
Challenging, requires magic or a rather slow 'milking' procedure.
One concern I've just uncovered: there are no native mulberry trees in the western portion of the continent. They might be able to raise some imported ones, but it may be challenging to expand a relatively limited initial population into something significant enough to feed generation upon generation of silk moth. Though, they could import some southern species from the Mexica.
I definitely like the idea of a financial crisis due to silk competition.
The Web Below
This seems like a pretty reasonable plan. I do think we should make a point of comparing cultures to make sure we're not making them too similar.
Colorado River
Actually, did a bit more research. When the Colorado River meets the sea, it creates a huge, fertile delta, much like the Nile. It's entirely possible that this delta could be the backbone of the Hisatsinom food supply, supplying the entire nation with maize, beans, squash, and Nipa (Known as Palmer's Saltgrass, a wheat-like wild grain that can absorb saltwater). That, fishing, and bird-netting, would likely be enough to provide a pretty durn good supply of food to many Hisatsinom cities.
Also, apparently it has a really variable flow between summer and winter, like, 40x as much in summer as winter.
Disease
Well, it had the potential to kill a lot of people if it got out of control, but it had a very low death rate in the end, mostly due to people being exhausted or incapacitated from the medicine plague and being unable to defend themselves or tend to their food supplies via hunting or managing their crops. There were a number of deaths in the creation process, from failed versions of the medicine plague, too.
Weaponizing it's off the table for two reasons.
For one, the Europeans aren't particularly vulnerable to any new world diseases. Well, other than syphilis (the nasty kind that melted your brain back in the day), so they couldn't weaponize a more intense version of anything that would affect the Europeans.
For another, there's no way to control the plague once it's out of the bottle. It worked in this case because it had to spread to everyone, as fast as possible. If they tried to unleash something that was actually damaging to the infected, there would be almost no way to prevent it from spreading back into the native population and doing exactly what they were trying to prevent in the first place.
Plus, there are the obvious ethical concerns with genocide and disease weapons.
Also to note, Skinwalker is not a disease, it's a class (or maybe a feat chain), something you learn to do. Werewolf is a curse. Neither's a disease.
Heal
Probably would make sense.
I don't think the argument that it builds off of the experience of previous generations merits an intelligence-based skill. Really, the argument you're making is to make it a trained only skill, which is exactly what I've already been convinced of.
Look at profession, wis-based, trained only. Let's take brewer from the example. You don't walk off the street and start throwing things in barrels to see if it works. you apprentice to a brewer, who teaches you how it works, what you're supposed to use and how much. He's building on the experience of previous generations of brewers, as you will, once you become a brewer of renown. You can substitute brewer for any number of other professions. Farmer, fisherman, engineer, midwife, herbalist, gardener, merchant, baker... It's all building on previous generations of knowledge. That's represented by the 'trained only' part.
Yes, there were some advanced medical procedures going on. But that doesn't indicate intelligence.
Oh, and they saw the bacteria in the 1670s, but they were still thinking the bacteria was generated by the illness by setting time.
Studying disease and illness in a scientific fashion might be intelligence-based, but actually performing the healing would be wisdom, in my opinion.
Classes
Alchemist
True enough. I'll add it onto the list provisionally.
Cavalier
The cavalier wouldn't have worked for the great plains anyways, the cavalier was melee, heavy armor, and inspiration focused.
There are a number of hunter tactics relating to mounted combat and mounts, under the animal companion one. Great Plains hunters could easily use those. Heck, Europeans that have a special attachment to their horses might well be able to use them, too.
A little research says that cavalry charges were still important in military, used to penetrate enemy lines after a successful artillery attack, but they were rapidly losing importance thanks to the bayonet, which allowed any soldier to turn a musket into a pike, perfect for skewering a horse. Mostly light cavalry saw use as messengers, and mounts for leadership, carrying messages and supplies around the battlefield as necessary. They also mentioned fancy riding techniques for shooting while on horseback, which sounds perfect for a hunter with a special bond to their mount.
Paladin
I'm also planning to include some supernatural options under feats of strength, which will make thing a bit more paladin-like.
Warrior would work fine, but it's still the name of the NPC class. Soldier doesn't work, really, since the current soldier doesn't have much to do with strength, they're more about guns.
I considered 'Grunt' but it sounds a bit too modern in my mind.
Heavy? Tough?
Skinwalker is not a disease, it's a class (or maybe a feat chain), something you learn to do. Werewolf is a curse. Neither's a disease.
I did not mean to be worded as such. I was thinking along the lines of that studies to weaponize diseases would be in the realm of the Skinwalker. The Skinwalker would work well as a fallen Medicine Man, when I think about it.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-27, 11:37 AM
Ahh. Well, skinwalkers aren't inherently evil, it's just it's own kinda power. They are evil in some myths, but in others they're just powerful.
I figure I should give you guys a bit of an update on what I've been working on, considering it's both important to the project and I'm somewhat stalled on them anyways.
Giantkin
This is a race that replaces/fuses the Tuniit and the Trollkin. I'm somewhat hesitant to do it, since I know how popular the trollkin were, but I think this better represents the myths.
It's sort of a two-in-one race. There's the normal version, which are just regular giants with abilities dependent on the variety of giant involved. I'm trying to come up with a pretty comprehensive list at the mo', but it's challenging. Then there's a 'sealed version' filling the role of the trollkin. Medium normally, but they can unleash their giant heritage to return to large size temporarily.
So far I've got Frost, Fire, Sea, Stone, Mountain (which are builders ala cyclops), Titan (Who are extra-strong and may get bigger with a PRC), Glutton (Man-eating giants of various types), and Warped (Multi-headed/multi-limbed giants). I could probably use better names for the last three.
Oh, and I'm definitely adding feats for rock throwing/catching.
Innunguaq
Now that I have the basis of the runecasting system, I can make these guys happen.
The initial plan was to be living constructs, just stacks of stone with magical runes that imitate bodily functions. But there's no living construct subtype here, and I'm hesitant to make one. I'm actually thinking half-construct humanoid at the moment, the fluff explanation being they were created as stone beings, then converted into a humanoid form via runes, though they still retain construct traits.
One thing I want to do is tie the runecasting into them somehow. I'm thinking of going either the simple route and giving them a single simple glyph somewhere on their body they can cast/charge as a runecaster, or by giving them a 'key rune' on their forehead or over their heart that has an effect based on the rune's effect (sort of giving a nod to the original golem with 'truth' on his forehead).
Totemic
Could probably use a better name for these guys. they were originally Tonal, but I figured I could broaden my horizons a bit.
Basically, the character has some manner of connection to an animal spirit. they're linked at birth. the spirit animal is normally invisible/immaterial/inaudible, but the totemic can see and hear them, as well as having a passive see invisibility effect. the animal spirit moves and acts independently, but it only has very limited ability to affect the world. They have a handful of spirit traits, which can be auras that affect creatures around their location, active abilites they spend actuions to use, or passive traits they just grant to the totemic.
I'm a little stalled on the spirit abilities. I'm also considering adding a feat chain/prestige class that allows your animal spirit to possess things, like familiars or animal companions or even you yourself.
Martial Artist
I'm thinking that, perhaps I could de-specify this one. Move away from specific schools as part of the class and just make the class itself, with different schools for techniques. Sorta like ToB, but not quite. Maybe some passive abilities that you can select from as part of the class.
Steckie
2014-05-27, 02:21 PM
Knights Hospitaller
Bioluminescense
Alright, a really bright light spell it is then. Using the bioluminescense as a nonmagical faerie fire sounds good.
I wouldn't limit the flash to non-christians, they actively hunt pirates as well. Besides, what is a non-christian? Would a baptised person that doesn't go to church be a non-christian? Is somebody from an 'unofficial' christian sect a non-christian?
Code/Oath
Anything you can think of that needs to change in the Code or the Oath? I'm not sure on a few things:
- 'To respect the honour of women', would this still work in Vespuccia where Native females are leaders and combatants are relatively normal?
- 'Never to refuse a challenge from an equal', is this doable? And what is an equal in their eyes?
- '...guided by the ideals of the Sovereign Order of St John of Jerusalem...', is that still the official name of the Order?
Hisatsinom
Silk trade
Question time:
About the Hisatsinom traders, are we talking caravans complete with beasts of burden or are we talking single traders with a group of men and women carrying packs?
Ropes, to make a rope apparently a ropewalk was used throughout Europe. These were very long buildings where the rope was twisted or braided or whatever they did to make rope. Is this something in The Web Below?
Clothes, do they make them or just send out the fabrics? Making the clothes would make the Hisatsinom have a whole sewing industry.
Disease
Just one more problem i see with the idea: the Natives were killed by various diseases. Measles, smallpox, polio,.... It wasn't one big epidemic, it was the succession of several epidemics spread out over a few decades that killed such a high percentage of the population.
Other than that the idea sounds good.
Who would have made the magical disease (we need a name for it)?
Heal
Actually, i think profession should be int as well but let's not start that discussion :smallsmile:
We're probably not going to agree on what the Heal skill should be labeled under, so for simplicity's sake we should probably keep it under wis. I think it doesn't fit, but it's really not that important.
I'm just glad it's going to be trained only.
I kind of disagree with that Code. Especially if we're playing the Knights as Combat Pragmatists.
"◾To fear God and maintain His Church
◾To serve the liege lord in valour and faith
Which Liege Lord? The Knights are their own organization.
◾To protect the weak and defenceless
◾To give succour to widows and orphans
◾To refrain from the wanton giving of offence
◾To live by honour and for glory
I don't see "Living for Glory" as really working out. It sounds like that would tell them to value their own glory/reputations over their mission as defenders. To run off and hunt down the bandit chief, leaving the people they should be guarding undefended.
◾To despise pecuniary reward
◾To fight for the welfare of all
◾To obey those placed in authority
◾To guard the honour of fellow knights
◾To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
If things like "Luring enemies into Ambushes" are not counted as "Deceit", I'm okay with that.
◾To keep faith
◾At all times to speak the truth
◾To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
◾To respect the honour of women
◾Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
Again, I don't really like this. It seems far too aggressive a stance for the Knights. Somebody could, for example, eliminate a Knight by challenging them, thus leaving the Knight's charges unprotected.
◾Never to turn the back upon a foe
Once again, no. Honor and Bravery are all well and good, but a strict "No Retreat" policy is for fools and fanatics. A Knight that gets himself killed charging against impossible odds is one who can't protect people later.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-27, 03:12 PM
Knights Hospitaller
Bioluminescence
I hadn't really thought that far, I was just brainstorming ideas for possible things to attach to the light effect.
Code
Okay, going point-by-point:
◾To serve the liege lord in valour and faith
We could change this to serving their commanders or superiors, easily enough.
◾To live by honour and for glory
I think it could be practiced as 'for the glory of the knights' not personal glory. So, while hunting down a bandit leader might earn you glory, failing your charges would dishonor the knights as a whole.
◾To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
I think it refers to deceit on the personal level, which ties into the 'always speak the truth' thing.
◾To respect the honour of women
This one kind of depends on how you define 'honor' in this context.
◾Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
This one should probably go.
◾Never to turn the back upon a foe
Hmm... But fleeing to preserve one's self rather than one's charges would be in direct conflict with the purpose the knights.
I think 'the Sovereign Knights of St. John of Jerusalem' would probably still be the official title, yes. The order has many pseudonyms, but they would likely have kept the official title.
Query; Would these oaths be magically or mundanely enforced? Some sort of ritual gaes/quest?
Format Location
Here's something that occurred to me: We don't yet have anywhere in the main posts to put all this stuff about the knights. I'm thinking they could be counted either as one of the 'independent groups' for that post I'm workin' on, or I could add a 'organizations' tab under each empire to represent groups found in that area.
Hisatsinom
Silk Trade
I think they would have adopted the use of horses for long-distance travel and trade, though they likely wouldn't have many, considering how much of their lives would be spent up on cliffsides.
Disease
This is true. However, firstly, any one of the plagues would have been enough to warrant such a measure, each being highly fatal. Second, the first few waves would likely originate in the fusang settlements, and by the time the europeans arrived, the first one or two medicine plagues and the news about them, would likely have already reached that coast, and given them a rough idea of how to create ones to counteract new European plagues.
I think the idea of having the hisatsinom be the first inventors of it works pretty well, though the idea, once out, could well be done by any group with a sizable number of healers.
Heal
Right, I shall go make a note of the change... somewhere. I have to figure that part out.
◾Never to turn the back upon a foe
Hmm... But fleeing to preserve one's self rather than one's charges would be in direct conflict with the purpose the knights.
Yes but "Never to turn back upon a foe" implies a total non-retreat policy.
For example, if a Knight is protecting some settlers, and they come under attack, the best way to ensure the Settler's safety is for the Knight to cover the settler's retreat then, when they are safely away, withdraw and regroup with them in order to continue protecting them.
"Never to turn back upon a foe" implies a sort of Glory-hound "NO RETREAT! EVER!" approach. The Knight should keep fighting, even in the face of certain death, and leave his charges unprotected, rather than retreat with them. A Knight shouldn't need to break their code to fulfill a mission so in line with their order's purpose.
The Knights are pragmatists, whatever mission they are given, or take upon themselves, should theoretically be their priority. If a Knight promises to safely get you from one place to another, that Knight should be doing everything in their power to fulfill that objective, not taking unnecessary risks in the pursuit of martial glory.
The Knights should value Courage, but I wouldn't write "No Retreat" into their code
Also, the knights are largely a naval power, what about their crews? If a knight's ship has been damaged, and their quarry flees into a storm, the captain may be willing to risk almost certain death for the chance of bringing down the pirates, but is he obligated by oath to make that decision for his crew as well. (Especially if they have a better chance of catching the pirate by holding back rather than chasing them into a storm)
The Knights are fearless, but they shouldn't be suicidally reckless.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-27, 06:16 PM
Yes but "Never to turn back upon a foe" implies a total non-retreat policy.
For example, if a Knight is protecting some settlers, and they come under attack, the best way to ensure the Settler's safety is for the Knight to cover the settler's retreat then, when they are safely away, withdraw and regroup with them in order to continue protecting them.
"Never to turn back upon a foe" implies a sort of Glory-hound "NO RETREAT! EVER!" approach. The Knight should keep fighting, even in the face of certain death, and leave his charges unprotected, rather than retreat with them. A Knight shouldn't need to break their code to fulfill a mission so in line with their order's purpose.
The Knights are pragmatists, whatever mission they are given, or take upon themselves, should theoretically be their priority. If a Knight promises to safely get you from one place to another, that Knight should be doing everything in their power to fulfill that objective, not taking unnecessary risks in the pursuit of martial glory.
The Knights should value Courage, but I wouldn't write "No Retreat" into their code
Also, the knights are largely a naval power, what about their crews? If a knight's ship has been damaged, and their quarry flees into a storm, the captain may be willing to risk almost certain death for the chance of bringing down the pirates, but is he obligated by oath to make that decision for his crew as well. (Especially if they have a better chance of catching the pirate by holding back rather than chasing them into a storm)
The Knights are fearless, but they shouldn't be suicidally reckless.
A collection of good points, sir!
I'll agree, the line in the code is a bit too hard-line for the knights to be able to do their job properly. We could probably drop it safely.
However, we should add something about the aforementioned dedication to their particular mission. I suppose it's kind of covered under the 'persevere to the end of any enterprise begun', though...
SuperDave
2014-05-27, 08:01 PM
As promised, here's what I've found about Fusang so far. I decided to skip British Columbia, since we've already covered them before in the thread.
Washington
Seattle is heavily engineered for human habitation: much of it was originally mudflats and skerries. The city is long, twisty, and dominated by water. Famous locales include Pike Place Market, Capitol Hill, and Puget Sound & Islands.
Spokane, WA -
Columbia River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_River) - largest river in the Pacific Northwest (perhaps all of Fusang?)
Olympic Nat'l Park (http://www.nps.gov/olym/index.htm) - hot springs, beachcombing, rainforests, Sasquatch territory
First Beach - My wife said it was really cool here. There were TONS of driftwood on the beach, and it was very scenic.
Forks, Washington - a coven of powerful jiang-shi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire-jiang-shi) vampires, who have been cursed to sparkle forever, have recently made their nest in this town. They must be exterminated!
Mount Tahoma (http://www.nps.gov/mora/index.htm) (or Takoma) (later “Mt Rainier”)
Ohanapecosh (http://www.nps.gov/mora/planyourvisit/ohanapecosh.htm) (“Grove of the Patriarchs”)
Lawetlat'la (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_St._Helens) (Mt St. Helens) – dormant but still dangerous
Hoquiam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoquiam,_Washington) – this milling town got its name from a Chehalis word meaning “hungry for wood”. In our setting, it would probably be a major lumber town, selling both bamboo and hardwoods.
North Cascades National Park (http://www.nps.gov/noca/index.htm)
Cape Disappointment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Disappointment_%28Washington%29) <– great name, where did it come from? Sources disagree.
Soap Lake, WA - “The name Soap Lake came from the word Smokiam, an Indian term which translates to “Healing Waters.” The tribes used the lake for healing purposes for themselves and their animals for many years before the area was settled by pioneers.”
Makah art (http://makah.com/makah-tribal-info/) is very famous and beautiful. (But is it more beautiful than other tribes’ artwork? Debatable, but I thought it was worth mentioning.)
Yakima Valley (http://wineyakimavalley.org/) - wine country
San Juan Islands (http://www.visitsanjuans.com/) (btw. Seattle and Victoria)
Oregon
“Wy'East” (Mt. Hood) and "Klickitat" (Mt. Adams) - Multnomah tribe legend about two rivals who were turned to smoking mountains, who still rumble defiance at each other to this day. (source (http://www.theclymb.com/stories/passions/explore/native-american-legends-about-mountains-in-the-pacific-northwest/))
Oregon Caves Nat'l Monument (http://www.nps.gov/orca/index.htm)
Crater Lake (http://www.nps.gov/crla/index.htm) – 1,943 feet deep. Very clear; sunlight penetrates to a depth of 400 feet! Volcanic, not meteoric. The lake surrounds Wizard Island, which has a little peak with its own little crater in the center.
Wilamette Valley - wine country
Newberry National Volcanic Monument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newberry_National_Volcanic_Monument)
Neahkahnie Mountain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neahkahnie_Mountain) - mysterious petroglyphs, shipwrecked sailors, and rumors of a sunken, gold-laden Spanish galleon treasure-ship.
Oregon Dunes (http://www.duneguide.com/sand_dune_guide_oregon_dunes.htm)
Bayocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayocean,_Oregon) – 30 years ago, this entire thriving resort-town washed right into the sea! We might not use this actual town, but we could include one like it.
D. River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_River) – at 445 feet, it's the shortest river on Earth!
California
San Francisco Bay => “Golden Bay”
Central Coast
Central Valley
Deserts
Gold Country => undiscovered at this point. PCs may have a hand in the first Californian gold rush.
High Sierra
Inland Empire
Los Angeles =>
Napa Valley
North Coast
Orange County
San Diego => Fēn Qiūlíng ( 雰丘陵, “foggy/misty hills”), is known for its mild year-round climate, natural deep-water harbor, extensive beaches, and long association with the U.S. Navy.
Shasta Cascade
Redwood (http://www.nps.gov/redw/index.htm)/Sequoia (http://www.nps.gov/seki/index.htm) Forests => protected by Colossal treants! Don't make them angry...:smalleek:
P.S. Logging is HUGE in the Pacific Northwest, so I therefore, I propose that we add Po Buan-Yan (http://americanfolklore.net/folklore/paul-bunyan/) to the list of official NPCs. There might even be rumors that he's part sasquatch, since he's so big and hairy.:smalltongue:
...and here's some other stuff I've been thinking about.
Heal
i am still unconvinced that Heal should be a wisdom based skill.
I feel like there's a lot of good arguments on both sides. Frankly, I'm not sure anymore which one I think is more appropriate. Fortunately, most characters who are smart will also be wise, and vice-versa.
Who would have made the magical disease (we need a name for it)?
I was thinking that it would be either the False Face Society (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/11/29/923926/-Indians-101-The-Iroquois-False-Face-Society#) and/or the Midewiwin (http://the-wanderling.com/midewiwin.html). On the east coast, that is. I can't find any similar societies to match their size and influence on the west coast...
If we want different properties for spider silk versus silk worm silk, maybe the spider silk is a stronger material, but it does not work well for fashionable items like clothing, but works wonders as rope and durable fabric to be worked with (parachutes anyone?)
At first I thought this might be too much, but then I realized that this is about the era when lighter-than-air flight was first being experimented with in Europe. Can you say "synergy"? :smallbiggrin:
I tend to look at the map and break it up into chunks. Then I figure which chunks they would definately have, and which chunks they would definately not have, and which chunks would be contested or go either way. The border goes along the middle of a contested region, or roll/fluff which area has which region and draw the border to suit it.
So you mean break it down by geographic features? Like, by watershed, for example?
Big question, byDo the provinces of Fusang have border-wars with each other, or is the Empress' grip too tight for that?
Chunks could be anything from mountain regions, to the border along a river, to various towns and the surrounding area, forests, plains, ect. Think of it as a small scale risk board, and...:smalleek: That would be cool...a Crossroads Risk set....
Oh my goodness yes! We can make that one of our stretch goals, after the Crossroads books are all published!
Also, my map maker within me is screaming to come back out...we should really chat sometime.
Agreed. PM has been sent. I can't wait to trade map ideas!
Skype
Speaking of skype, this month ends in in the middle of next weekend. Do you guys want to have the meeting on the 31st/1st weekend, or the 7th/8th weekend? And who wants in on this one?
I'd vote this weekend, personally.
Pokonic
2014-05-27, 08:41 PM
Personally, I think one could just leave Paul Bunyan unstated, because he could easily be giantkin/trollkin/whatever the cool kids are calling it these days as much as he could be a sasquatch-human hybrid. I would just put him as an Augmented Human (?) Ranger and leave the actual details of what he would be to the tall tales.
I decided to skip British Columbia
Is that directly under Fusang control? I am asking since some of the jade supposedly found in China may be B.C. jade from the Great Exploration.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-28, 07:41 PM
Disease
Those two might work for some european-origin plagues, but the first ones would have to come from somewhere in the southern or south-eastern area of the west, somewhere inland of golden harbor or so.
Parachute/balloon
I could see this being mentioned in a campaign or something, but I don't think we should formally endorse it in game terms.
Fusang Borders
I'll try to doodle something for you to work off of soon.
I think the empress would be too strong a control for there to be border wars. If there's a conflict, it's settled in the imperial courts, not by armies.
Risk
I dunno, we're definitely going to have a new world map in the book somewhere, I don't think a risk board would be strictly necessary.
Besides, only people who hate their friends would subject them to Risk. Risk ENDS FRIENDSHIPS.
Skype
Well,t hat's one vote for this weekend. Anyone else wanna weigh in?
If you want to join in, just send me a PM with your skype info.
Paul Bunyan
Seconding what pokonic said, more or less.
I'll get into the fusang locations stuff soon.
Question about Skype: Is it audio or a mass chat room idea?
Admiral Squish
2014-05-28, 10:33 PM
Question about Skype: Is it audio or a mass chat room idea?
Usually audio, but the mass chat room thing's always available.
I might join in on one of these conferences, though depending on the number of people, I may use the chat, since I am kinda hearing impaired, so many people talking may not be so useful to me.
Aux-Ash
2014-05-29, 01:37 AM
Regarding the skype call:
I could probably join in this weekend, assuming it's the usual time. But perhaps we ought to create a few talking points this time?
Steckie
2014-05-29, 02:23 AM
I could perhaps join depending on when my wife gives birth (she was due two days ago) and if my other two kids are already asleep.
And if it's a reasonable hour here in Europe when you want the meeting to start.
Oh, and if i figure out how Skype works, never used it before.
What is the usual time, anyways?
Palanan
2014-05-29, 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by SuperDave
Oh my goodness yes! We can make that one of our stretch goals, after the Crossroads books are all published!
I was just about to pause and ask what the endgame of this project will be.
Are you planning something along the lines of a comprehensive CRB, or more or of a setting description with sections for additional rules and subsystems?
It sounds as if you're going to have a completely reworked list of spells, plus a variety of base classes and PrCs, plus secret and not-quite-secret organizations, in addition to the geographic regions, cultures, cities, races, monsters, and all the rest.
And, presumably, maps and artwork in there too. Adding it all up, especially given the detail you've all been working up, this sounds huge.
So. How are you planning to organize and present the material? How many books are you expecting to bring out? And will all this be done through Kickstarter and a self-publishing website?
Admiral Squish
2014-05-29, 10:59 AM
It's usually not more than four or five people, and we're reasonably good at taking turns.
The usual time is something like 3 PM EST on Saturday. I don't think it's an unreasonable hour in Europe. I know Aux-Ash usually makes it, and he's in Sweden.
Skype's pretty simple to use. All you gotta do is download it, set up an account, and send me the address so I can add ya in.
I wish you luck with the baby on the way!
Talking Points
Good point!
We're just starting Columbia, so we should probably focus there for this talk.
How do the colonies interact with each other? (Spanish, English, French, Dutch, Portugese, Papal)
How do the colonies interact with the natives? (Cahokia, Iroquois, Mexica, Caribbean)
How strongly do the colonies hold to the church's church's campaign against arcane magic and magical creatures?
Are the colonies on the road to a rebellion?
The Project
The basic plan is somewhere between a Core Rulebook and a Setting sourcebook, something like the Eberron Campaign Setting with a bit more in the race/class section. We haven't really gotten into a formal discussion of what the end product will actually look like, considering we still have a ways to go. But if I had to say right now, the eberron sourcebook is probably the best example I can give you.
The basic plan is one book, at the moment, which covers everything in a reasonable amount of detail. If that one launches successfully, I think the next thing I'd want to launch is a detailed look at south america, a sort of adventurer's guide to the adventure continent, possibly followed by a set of books that go into much greater detail about each of the five major empires. I'm kind of a fan of details, so, I don't think I'd be able to put all that I really want to in the first big book.
As of now, the plan is to go through kickstarter and a self-publishing site, hiring artists out of DA and an editor/graphic designer from somewhere along the way.
Steckie
2014-05-29, 02:22 PM
Knights Hospitaller
Code
I'll go over the code and change some things taking remarks into account. Changes are in red.
◾To fear God and maintain His Church (stays as it is)
◾To serve the Grandmaster in valour and faith
◾To protect the weak, the diseased and defenceless
◾To give succour to widows and orphans (stays as it is)
◾To refrain from the wanton giving of offence (stays as it is)
◾To live by honour and for the glory of God and the Sovereign Order of St John
◾To despise pecuniary reward (stays as it is)
◾To fight for the welfare of all (stays as it is)
◾To obey those placed in authority (stays as it is)
◾To guard the honour of fellow Knights (stays as it is)
◾To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit, unless it is needed to uphold the Vow and the Code.
◾To keep faith (stays as it is)
◾At all times to speak the truth (stays as it is)
◾To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun (stays as it is)
◾To respect the honour of women and men
The Knights of Obedience swear the Vow and live to the Code, it is not magically enforced in any way.
The Knights of Justice swear the Vow and live to the Code enforced with a Geas. They don't choose to become Knights of Justice, they are asked to become one and have the right to refuse. If they refuse there are no consequences, they just remain Knights of Obedience.
Hisatsinom
Silk Trade
If the Hisatsinom use beasts of burden for the Vespuccian Silk Road (name?), they should be of Chinese origin. Are there any special animals used by the Chinese that could be adopted by the Hisatsinom?
Disease
Hmm, doing it this way would still mean the people inventing the magical disease have to infect the populace anywhere between 5 or 15 or even 25 times. Every time a new European or Chinese disease makes it's way across one of the oceans, they'd have to do it again and kill ten thousands of people.
First of all, that's a HUGE burden to bear for the people making the diseases.
Second, it's a lot of work trying to infect enough people to spread the disease, especially when population numbers are lowering.
Are there diseases that were common between the Chinese and the Europeans? If so, then there could be some overlap to reduce the spell. Furthermore, is there a limited wish or something that would allow them to craft maybe an artifact that allows to combine diseases into one that would grant immunity to both diseases if contracted and survived?
Steckie
2014-05-29, 03:26 PM
Knights Hospitaller
Territory
Been working on the Knights a bit, and i think i've got most of their territory sorted out. They hold very little land, but they make it count. Here's what they have:
Saint Croix:
Main island of the Knights Hospitaller. Holds the capital 'Lascaris', located on the Bay of Light on the north shore of the island. The capital is named after Giovanni Paolo Lascaris, the Grandmaster who bought the islands. The island holds several plantations where criminals are forced to work.
Saint Christopher (Saint Kitts) and Nevis:
While the Knights owned Saint Christopher since 1651, Nevis was under English control until 1690. Nevis was one of the best islands for sugar cane production and the English profited greatly from the island. In 1690 a massive earthquake and tsunami destroyed Jamestown, the capital of Nevis. The whole city sank into the sea and was abandoned. The knights, using the garrison from nearby Saint Christopher were able to save most of the population. They stayed to help build a new city but in the end they never left. There was a short struggle with a small English fleet over control of the island, but the Knights repelled the attack and in the resulting treaty they purchased the island. Baseterre, the harbor on Saint Christopher, is where the main Knights fleet is stationed. The north side of the island is where the training facilities of the Knights are located. There is a sizable army and fleet present most of the year, ready to strike at any threat.
Nevin, after the rebuilding, remains a large producer of sugar cane and provides a lot of wealth for the Knights.
Saint Martin:
The Knights purchased the French part of Saint Martin in 1651. The other part -Sint Maarten- was posessed by the Dutch. In 1672, during what the Dutch called the disaster year, the Dutch part of the island was sold to the Knights. The Dutch were desperate for money to fight several wars and were glad to be sell a harbor they would otherwise have to defend. Cotton, tobacco and sugar are cultivated on the island and it holds several salt mines
Saint Barthélemy:
An island with mostly housing and small farming. Farming is difficult due to the dry and rocky terrain, but the inhabitants are able to produce vegetables, pineapples, bananas and sweet potatoes. The island has a large fishing fleet.
Auberge de France:
Located in Québec City, Québec. It is the home of the French Langue.
Auberge of England:
Located in Providence, Rhode Island. It is the home of the English Langue.
Auberge de la Espana:
Located in La Habana, Cuba. It is the home of the Spanish Langue
Auberge de Portugal:
Located on the island of Saint Christopher. Previously it was in Brasil, but after the expulsion of European colonies there they were forced to relocate to territory owned by the Knights. It is the home of the Portugese Langue
Auberge van Nederland:
Located in Nieuw Amsterdam. It is the home of the Dutch Langue
Auberge de Italiae:
Located on Saint Croix. It is the home of the Papal Langue.
Auberge von Deutschland und das Skandinavien:
Located in Fort Kristina in what was previously Nya Sverige. It is the home of the Germand and Scandinavian Langue.
Auberge ??????:
Located in Nouveau Orléans on the mouth of the Mississipi. It is the home of the Native Langue.
I need some help with the name for the Native Auberge.
Also note i have only listed the main Auberges, don't want to start working into detail yet and list every small cottage the Knights own.
Relics and holy days
I've found something about the Right Hand of the Forerunner that the Knights own (right hand of st John the Baptist, the hand that baptised Jesus).
It is reported that the relic would be brought out and shown to the faithful on the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross (September 14). If the fingers of the hand were open, it was interpreted as a sign of a bountiful year; if the hand was closed, it would be a poor harvest.
June 24 – Nativity of St. John the Baptist and the evening of june 23 is st John's eve. It is usually celebrated with bonfires.
August 29 – Beheading of St. John the Baptist. Don't know how this day is celebrated.
Naming
The Knights add a prefic to their name once they are sworn in. This is historical and i'd like to keep it in the game for flavor.
they add [Fra'] to the name of a person. I'm not really sure why, i think it has something to do with the fact that they were originally named "Fraternitas Hospitalaria".
Bruce Willis obtaining Knighthood would become Fra'Bruce Willis.
Dan Aykroyd obtaining Knighthood would become Fra'Dan Aykroyd.
How do the Knight's govern their islands?
Like, there are probably Knights of Justice serving as governors on each island, but how far in the local government are Knights present. Do Knights patrol the streets? Are the plantations owned and operated at the behest of the Knights, or are there private citizens who support the Order through taxation.
And then there's the Slavery question. Do the Knights use slaves on their plantations , do they tolerate other plantations on their islands using slave labor?
So, the Knight's sources of income are
Taxation from their island
Profit from their plantations
Donations
Selling pirate ships captured intact (Assuming they don't keep them all for themselves)
Parachute/balloon
I could see this being mentioned in a campaign or something, but I don't think we should formally endorse it in game terms.
Well you can always have a creative PC develop it on their own.
Grinner
2014-05-30, 07:57 PM
I'm probably a bit late in the development cycle of this project, but I saw one of these (http://www.uhaul.com/supergraphics/) on the highway today and immediately thought of this project. It's a collection of ~150 factoids about the U.S.
I thought it might be useful source material. :smallsmile:
I thought this one (http://www.uhaul.com/SuperGraphics/67/Venture-Across-America-and-Canada-Modern/Ohio) might be especially interesting.
Palanan
2014-05-30, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by Grinner
I thought this one might be especially interesting.
Indeed, yes. I've been to Serpent Mound, and it's incredible.
I was in Columbus for a conference a few years ago, and took a day to rent a car and tour as many mound sites as I could reach. They were all impressive, but Serpent Mound was the absolute crown.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-30, 10:44 PM
My brother showed me to an updated emulator of Link's Awakening, so blame him if I don't end up posting regularly over the next few days. :smallamused:
Skype
Alright, the plan is for the call to take place tomorrow at 3 PM EST.
If you want to participate, please get me your information by private message before then.
Admiral Squish
2014-05-31, 01:39 PM
Knights Hospitaller
Code
Looks good to me, does anyone else have further commentary?
Territory
Saint Croix Sounds pretty solid to me
Saint Christopher and Nevis The city fell into the sea? Dang, yo. Though, I bet that would be a pretty awesome underwater adventure, full of undead villagers who drowned, unclaimed treasure, and aquatic creatures that may have moved into the city.
Anyways, very cool, I quite like it. Though, if it were so profitable, would the english have given up so easily?
Saint Martin Man, I really gotta learn more about the dutch.
Saint Barthélemy Maybe it's a sort of 'retirement island' for knights too old to serve in combat? they just hang out there until an administration position opens somewhere in the organization.
Auberge de France Quebec sounds good. I thought for a moment that Montreal might ake for a better seat, but then I realized Quebec would be closer to the ocean, and thus to the main force of the knights.
Auberge of England Probably about right.
Auberge de la Espana Cuba sounds good. I was gonna say maybe Florida for a better spread over the mainland, but the Auberge de Amerindien could project force in that direction easily enough.
Auberge de Portugal Sounds good to me. Ooh, perhaps they left something important in Brasilia, some minor relic or similar.
Auberge Van NederlandSounds pretty good to me.
Auberge de Italiae Solid.
Auberge von Deuthchland und das Skandanavien I definitely like.
Auberge de Amérindien This is the native langue. I figured the french word for native americans would be suitable, considering the location.
Relics and Holy Days
Oooh, that sounds like a pretty awesome relic there.
Maybe the beheading would be a day of mourning, where the knights pay their respects to their patron?
Naming
I like the prefix to the name! Definitely a cool detail.
Slavery
I think the knights would probably use slave labor, it was pretty commonplace at the time, though they would only use it to supplement their criminal workforce. I suspect the knights would probably be relatively respectful of the legal status of free slaves. Oh, and they would also probably be very keen on converting their slaves to the church, forbidding practice of African religions.
Hisatsinom
Silk Trade
Well, there are horses, obviously. Oxen were used too. Hmm... I don't think there were any unusual animals at work in fusang.
You know, a silk bridge wouldn't break, but it might stretch too much to be usable under a very heavy load, such as a fully laden cart pulled by a pair of oxen. Those traveling the silk road may have to travel relatively light, or disperse their load over many animals.
Disease
Well, it has the potential to kill that many people, but if they do it right, the new version of the disease only kills a handful at a time. You just feel sick and exhausted for a couple weeks while your body fights off the neutered plague, then you're fine. If the medicine plagues killed tens of thousands every time, it wouldn't be any different than regular plagues, and for the new balance of power to work, we need the center of the continent to keep at the very least MOST of its population intact. Like, 80%, minimum.
Perhaps they would infect a handful of carriers who they would mark somehow as bearers of the medicine sickness, then have them ride out and purposely infect as many people as they can. The disease not only spreads from the carrier, but also along normal transmission routes between the infected.
There was significant overlap between the chinese and the european diseases. Prolonged trade along the silk road has exposed both sides to most of the diseases resident in either area. Hence the slightly higher population levels on the east coast after all the plagues, some of the medicine diseases made it there before the europeans arrived and the people developed an immunity to some of the diseases, though others managed to get a foothold before their medicine sicknesses arrived.
Factoids
Very cool, Grinner! Thanks for pointing those out, some of those will definitely be useful.
Plot hook:
This idea came to me late last night, so it may not be any good:
The players find a message in a bottle on the beach somewhere in the Caribbean. The note inside simply bears five words: "Still alive. Please send help". It appears to be written in blood. Where did it come from? Who wrote it? Are they still alive? Can they be saved?
Admiral Squish
2014-05-31, 06:32 PM
Okay, the skype call went very well! Six people attended, and we covered a lot of ground, some of it being ground we never actually intended to cover. Overall, it went very well, and I’ll sum up some of the material here:
Columbia:
Inter-Colonial Relations
Overall, we determined that each colony is distinct enough that they may have different takes on various other colonies. In the north, for example, New France and New England are reasonably friendly, though they compete over trade with the haudenosaunee. However Georgia and Florida in the south are contentious, as georgia is driving native populations into spain’s territory. The English and the Papal colonies are not particularly friendly, but they’re not openly hostile, either. An important point to make is that with the delay of orders, the colonies usually act without direction or approval from the European powers.
Colonial-Native Relations
The colonies themselves are generally more friendly and respectful to the natives in this setting. This is partially because they make good trading partners, and partially because they are, by the fact that they’re still around, a much more present influence on the colonies. There are still some areas where they don’t get along very well at all, and some will exploit or attack them, but the general look toward the natives is less that of pests and more like a separate nation.
Oh, and we ran into an interesting bit where the Tuniit and the French colonists are both trying to marry themselves into the opposite culture to create friendly terms, so it’s become a question of who can do a better job of genetically dominating the other.
Magic
The colonies have varied takes on magic as well. Most will tacitly support spell casters, due to the fact that their magic is often of great use to a small, struggling colony, but many skill maintain the official stance that arcane magic is evil. Sort of a local level versus government level, but as the government’s grip on the people is relatively loose in such a sparsely populated area, the people usually are able to conceal and support arcanists in their midst. However, this can change if an inquisitor or scarred monk comes to town. A strong, charismatic agent of the church can turn communities on the spell casters in their midst and the power and manipulation they bring to bear can even turn close friends.
Magical Creatures
The colonies generally regard magical creatures as they do normal creatures. If they’re harmless, they usually won’t interfere. If they’re helpful, they may have them around. And if they’re dangerous, they might destroy them even if they’re not actively harming them. Church agents may muster hunting parties against powerful creatures in the area, but usually they don’t go looking for them.
Non-Humans
Being a nonhuman in Columbia is a risky business. At best, you’re out of place but they will deal with you, they may even make special accommodations if you make it worth their effort. At worst, you’re actively hunted by the people. It’s hard to hide your true nature, especially for some. Some more human kinds, such as giantkin, little folk, and witch bloods, are more likely to be accepted. Others, like spirit-born or coatls, are all but impossible to integrate.
Rebellion
One thing we all agreed on was that the colonies are definitely on the road to rebellion. The same groundwork that was present in the real world is present here. It may not happen at the same time, it may not happen in the same way. Maybe only one will rebel, maybe all of columbia will join in the anti-imperialist action, maybe the attempt will be quashed. Maybe they get support from the natives, or maybe the natives side with the foreign powers. However it goes, it’s going to happen, one way or another.
South America
Northern Coast
We debated about this one quite a bit, but eventually decided that the northern coast, from about the southernmost part of panama across, would likely be settled by European powers, mostly Portugal, though Columbia would be largely native-held and loosely allied with the Spanish.
Amazon
I hinted at this whole plan of mine in the first post, but I eventually decided that it would be better to make it clear what’s going on. Portugal colonized the Amazon and does simply awful stuff to the people and the environment there. The native biomancers flee deep into the forests, into the deep jungle where the Europeans can’t follow. Over the next hundred years, these spell casters from communities and communicate, bonded together from very different and often warring groups by the hatred of the common enemy. Together, they raise armies of biological weapons, dire and horrid creatures, man-eating plants, river serpents, and so on, and unleash them on anything not native to the area, driving the Europeans out of the amazon and establishing a border around the rainforest region, patrolled by mind-controlled bioweapons on land and sea serpents by sea. I haven’t deided what happens internally afterward, but it’s probably going to either be that the united biomancers create a new empire with themselves as the leadership, a biomagocracy, or the biomancers, once united with their original tribes once again, turn their creations upon one-another, turning the whole jungle into a meat grinder of inter-tribal carnage in a giant battle royale.
Andes/West Coast
I also hinted at this one, but I might as well reveal my plans. The biggest change is that with deathless/undead Inca remaining in power for perpetuity, they manage to avoid the whole civil war that allowed Pizarro to step in and make a mess of things. So the empire remains relatively strong. The other point I wanted to focus on was their observatories and their studies of the stars. I feel these studies would dovetail perfectly with divination magic. So the inca empire puts the prediction power to work and creates the most comprehensive and useful link map in the world, allowing them to use the links to practically transport goods and even armies wherever necessary. They also use this to predict arriving ships, so they can quickly dispatch a ‘welcoming committee’ anywhere in the empire as they need it. The welcome is described in the first post. It’s sort of a ‘we’ll trade with you, sure, but we don’t want anything more to do with you, and you don’t get to see anything more than what we show you’ sort of arrangement.
Southeast Coast
Everything east of the Andes and south of the Amazon. This area was already largely uninhabited when the Europeans arrived, so it’s entirely possible they would have settled it, but it’s kinda useless land. It’s mostly pampas, a semi-arid steppe environment that’s not very good for agriculture, and a big desert in the southern parts.
New Material
Coatl
These guys got quite a bit of new stuff. The coatl are actually amphibious, and originally lived in colonies in cenotes, where they feed on meat that’s fallen in. They eat human sacrifices, careless wildlife, and unlucky individuals. They live in the vast, interconnected world of these clear-water submerged caves, building homes underwater. They eventually began to make more contact with humans of the region, beyond what they threw into the pits, and some even left their watery homes to live among them. They slowly spread out from the yucatan across all of modern mexico. They now live mostly separate from humans, occupying bodies of fresh water, and serving religious functions in many places. They are the caretakers of the dead. They are living graveyards. They prepare the bodies and eat them, but they also serve the function as gateways to the dead, their priests being able to project spirits of the spirit world into the mortal one, the soul appearing as a translucent shade, usually the head or the head and arms of the spirit in question, pushing out of the snake’s mouth to speak to mortals. They also perform resurrections for sufficient coinage. Oh, and they have ghost-arms instead of telekinetic ones.
Brute:
We had bit of a brainstorming session about the naming of the brute. Some suggestions include bruiser, brave, (something involving brawn), and warrior. I’m still not certain about which one to use. Ideally, we’d have a name that indicates strength, combat ability, and utility all at once.
-----
Now, that's all that I can think of at the moment, I'll review the recording later to see if I missed anything, or maybe one of the other attendees will remind me of something I've forgotten.
Pokonic
2014-06-01, 12:51 PM
I would suggest going with renaming the Brute class the Warrior, if only because it covers a lot of ground and it's feasible that the different groups in the setting would have different names for a guy who swings around a sword or has a big pole-arm of varying size.
Steckie
2014-06-01, 02:11 PM
Knights Hospitaller
Territory
Nevis: Actually in history the city got destroyed by the earthquake and tsunami and there are legends that the whole city sank into the sea but there is not much evidence for it. I figured it would be more interesting if the city had really sank into the sea, for the same reasons you mentioned. Although i hadn't considered undead.
It was very profitable, that's the reason i thought it would be good to have the Knights take over, they need a solid income. The English wouldn't have given up easily i suppose. But the Knights are a powerfull group and if they send a large group to the Island because their vows tell them they need to help fellow christians, they would be difficult to dislodge. If they claim the English failed to protect the people on the Island, that could give them casus belli to stay on the Island.
After a few small skirmishes between them it would probably be easier for both sides to make a deal. Especially since around 1690 the Nine Year's War is a thing, with France and Irish and Scottish Jacobites fighting against England. They don't need the Knights on their bad side and would probably just sell them the Island.
Saint Martin: Basically the Dutch found themselves in a war with England, France and several German states. And divided by internal squabbling. Hence the name 'Disaster Year'. It kinda sucked badly for them. Selling half an Island to the Knights would give them a bit of breathing room.
Saint Barthélemy: That means that if a Knight were to get orders to 'transfer to Saint Barthélemy', he would understand he's no longer wanted for active duty.
We probably need to create a school for that Island that can teach the old Knights how to become administrators. The officers probably wouldn't be sent to the Island, they already have experience and are rising through the ranks to a position that requires less fighting anyway.
Auberge de Portugal: If Portugal still has land in South Vespuccia, they'll probably have their Auberge there. Let's move them away from Saint Christopher to somewhere in current Venezuela.
Relics and Holy Days
Beheading of St John: a day of mourning sounds good. Perhaps the day where they remember the Knights that have fallen in service of the Order?
Nativity of St John: a day of celebration. Bonfires are lit up and on this day all new Knights are sworn in. And all promotions from Knight of Obedience to Knight of Justice happen.
Right Hand of the Forerunner: i know it's an awesome relic, but i have no idea how to make something of it.
South Vespuccia
One question: Where are the borders of Portugal and where are the Biomancer borders?
I'm asking because somewhere inbetween those is Guyana. And that got colonised by the Dutch somewhere in the second half of the 1600's.
Disease
I think i've found a way to tie the magical diseases (absolutely needs a better name), the Hisatsinom and the Great Basin together.
We've established the magical disease was first discovered by the Hisatsinom when they came into contact with Fusang. And the Fusangese carry many of the same diseases as the Europeans will when they show up. So a lot of the knowledge the Hisatsinom have will spread out and help the rest of the native population.
But here's the thing: what if their first attempt went horribly, horribly wrong?
Here's how i see it: The Great Basin natives are being wrecked by diseases. They know the same happened to the natives on the west coast when a strange new people arrived and started taking land. They know the diseases are spreading throughout their land and will continue to spread beyond their land. So they send people west and south to ask for medicine men to help them.
The Hisatsinom send many of their healers to help, together with the Great Basin natives they create a magical version of the disease that will in fact help them combat the mundane version. The Hisatsinom medicine men go back home, confident that this will help their people as well.
It blows up in their face. The Great Basin natives get wiped out. All of them. The Hisatsinom are only saved because they learn of this before they are able to spread the disease among their own people. And because the magical disease they created isn't very stable and as soon as it has killed all potential hosts is goes extinct.
The Hisatsinom are horrified at what they have done, but they still have a huge problem. The mundane disease is still heading in their direction. (Let's make that disease Smallpox, it has a very high rate of mortality) They are again forced to create a magical disease in the hopes of saving their people. This time it goes better. Only about 10-20% of the population dies and the civilization is able to survive.
They spread the knowledge to nearby tribes with a VERY clear warning.
Around 1750 the Great Basin is still a massive dead zone, but there are now small settlements within it's borders. Fusang and the Triple Alliance are both creating small mining operations to mine for gold, silver and copper.
But something strange is happening. People are disappearing. Small settlements as well sometimes.
And there are reports of pocked humans roaming the area. Are these native survivors of the magical disease? Are they Fusangese or Mexica people that have somehow contracted the ancient magical disease? Or are these even a new breed of humans, forever changed by the magical disease altering their genes?
Random Idea
Here's an idea i had today. I got inspired by the Skype meeting yesterday. The part when we talked about Benjamin Franklin the superhero.
Let's say there's a Nexus somewhere around the Great Lakes area, near the border of English and French territory. And somewhere near the Haudenosaunee.
Before the Romans screwed up the Spirals around the world it was relatively active and reliable and was the only Nexus nearby that Linked across the Appalachians. After Vesuvius, when the Links across the Atlantic got severed, some of the backlash of that event also severed the Link across the Appalachians. But now, the Links across the Atlantic are starting to come back a bit. And the old Link lines are re-establishing themselves.
This Nexus is close to Linking across the Appalachians again. Very, very close. It might happen in 1750, if people are lucky.
The problem is that this Nexus lies on the border between English, French and Haudenosaunee territory. And while it was previously a pretty useless place, it is now quickly becoming very important.
All three nations are very interested in the trade that this Nexus would bring them. They could Link directly to Cahokia, evading all the Cahokian manned fortresses that protect the mountain passes and where taxes must be paid.
The three nations have all set up around the Nexus and are all trying to claim it.
Here's the fun part: all three of them are sending their best scientists and arcanists in hopes of opening the Nexus quickly.
The English have sent members of the Royal Society, among whom are many Merlinic Wizards.
The French have merged the Académie française (wich guards the French language) with their own science society and wizard society and have sent members of this renewed Académie française to the same spot.
The Haudenosaunee don't have any scientists, but they have by far the best and most arcanists. And they are secretly helped by Benjamin Franklin and the Vespuccian Freemasons. The Vespuccian Freemasons are striving for the independane of the colonies and they don't want England or France to control that Nexus. Franklin may or may not be present himself.
So three powerfull societies of (mad?) scientists and arcanists are trying to open up a Nexus that Links over the Appalachians while simultaneously trying to screw over the competition.
Here's some facts on the Amazon civilization that may be useful later on (http://news.mongabay.com/2005/1017-amazon.html)
Also, an idea of the civilizations could be that the biomancers built up great control that had the entire Amazon under the rule of one person for a while, and then that person's death. This individual built up the defenses to the point that no foreigners wish to enter the Amazon. However, after this individuals death, the empire splits among the advisers/generals/friends. Think of Alexander the Great.
Palanan
2014-06-01, 02:43 PM
Looks like it was a very productive Skype session. A few questions and historical comments:
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
The colonies themselves are generally more friendly and respectful to the natives in this setting.
This leaped out at me as a dramatic departure from real history, and I'm not sure if stronger trade relations alone would account for this divergence. Just because the Iroquois were relatively strong and reliable trading partners didn't mean the English didn't take an extremely patronizing attitude towards them.
At the least, this would vary tremendously between colonies depending on their culture of origin and their relations with indigenous neighbors.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
We debated about this one quite a bit, but eventually decided that the northern coast [of South America], from about the southernmost part of panama across, would likely be settled by European powers, mostly Portugal....
This also doesn't follow actual history, and it doesn't jibe with what had been discussed a little earlier in this thread, as far as Portugal's near-total lack of stakeholding in the New World. In actual history much of the northern coast was dominated by Spain, with virtually no Portuguese presence or control, and I"m not sure what the rationale or benefit would be for changing this.
Originally Posted by Steckie
I'm asking because somewhere inbetween those is Guyana. And that got colonised by the Dutch somewhere in the second half of the 1600's.
Yes indeed, absolutely. Needs to be accounted for, one way or the other.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
...though Columbia would be largely native-held and loosely allied with the Spanish.
I think you mean Colombia.
:smalltongue:
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Portugal colonized the Amazon and does simply awful stuff to the people and the environment there.
When and where, exactly, are you postulating this occurs?
The earliest Portuguese settlements, starting after Cabral's landfall in 1500, were along the southern Atlantic coastline, and the rainforest they initially explored and exploited was the Mata Atlântica--the Atlantic Forest, which is a completely different biome from the Amazon. It's rainforest, yes, but entirely different terrain and a different suite of flora and fauna.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
The native biomancers flee deep into the forests, into the deep jungle where the Europeans can’t follow.
Again, where would this be exactly? And what would be the barrier to Europeans pursuing them?
The equatorial Amazon is intimately interlaced with rivers, tributaries, and igarapés, perfectly accessible by small watercraft and even shallow-draft ships. The Portuguese eventually explored the main-channel Amazon from Belém, just south of Marajó, out two thousand miles west to Tabatinga on the Rio Solimões. (This is, in fact, how they leapfrogged the limits set by the Treaty of Tordesillas and established the western extent of modern Brazil.)
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
...once united with their original tribes once again, turn their creations upon one-another, turning the whole jungle into a meat grinder of inter-tribal carnage in a giant battle royale.
Again, what would be the timeframe on this? And is divination up to standard D&D par in the Crossroads setting?
Because a "giant battle royale" among a gallimaufrey of indigenous tribes will eventually result in resource fatigue and a massive power vacuum. I'd expect there will always be a trickle of adventurers into this region, trying their luck the way adventurers do, and between divinations (if they exist in the setting) and the occasional surviving party member, word will eventually get out that the biomancers are no longer united.
I should also point out that exploiting native divisions was something of an art form among the Spanish adelantados. Just sayin'.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Everything east of the Andes and south of the Amazon.
Much of this is Patagonia, and it's not all desert. See also: Pantanal.
Also, again, I think you're conflating the Amazon with southern Mata Atlântica and other ecotypes.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
This area was already largely uninhabited when the Europeans arrived, so it’s entirely possible they would have settled it, but it’s kinda useless land.
Today there are over ten thousand sheep farms in this region, ranging from 2000 to 200,000 hectares, and their owners would probably disagree with the "kinda useless" assessment. As for native inhabitants, the Tehuelche and their precursors lived as nomadic hunter-gatherers for at least fourteen thousand years before European arrival, and the introduction of horses in the early 1700s allowed them to flourish on the pampas much as the Plains Indians did in North America.
It's a tough landscape, to be sure, but that attracts a certain kind of folk.
Originally Posted by Mith
Here's some facts on the Amazon civilization that may be useful later on....
Ahh, yes, I remember the media coverage of the terra pretas about that time.
I've done fieldwork on some of those terra pretas, and I've talked with some of the people who are strong proponents of the terra preta factor in precolombian population estimates. I've cited some of the original articles myself, and there's a lot worth considering, but it needs to be taken carefully and in context.
.
Admiral Squish
2014-06-01, 06:20 PM
Brute
I'm probably gonna go with warrior, though I'll be keeping an eye out for something better.
Knights Hospitaller
Territory
Nevis: Seems to make sense.
Saint Martin: 'Zactly, I didn't know any of that, and if the dutch are gonna have a presence I should really get into it.
Saint Barthelemy: I could imagine there being talk about aging knights being 'ready for Barthelemy', and some knights being quite displeased about getting taken off the active duty. I support the idea of an administration school for these knights, too.
Auberge de Portugal:
Relics and Holy Days
Beheading: Oooh, a day of rememberance sounds good. I could imagine a yearly accounting of lost knights being done on this day, a sort of second funeral for all of them.
Nativity: I like this. It would be a good occasion to get all the leadership together in saint croix to discuss new promotions and new knights, and their relative merits.
Maybe it's just like a very powerful augury that tells the knights if the next year will be good or bad for the order as a whole?
Disease
This sounds like a pretty good plan to me, though there are a few issues.
For one, the hisatsinom peoples, namely the anasazi and the pataya, occupied the great basin area, so I'm not certain there would even be a distinct cultural group there.
If it does exist, I'm not sure if destroying the entire great basin culture is valid. Perhaps a sizable area of it, but it sounds like it would be too deadly to get all through the land before it killed 'em, and just scouring a group of natives off the setting seems problematic.
Also, 10-20% is still pretty awful. How about 5-10%? The later versions may have much lower mortality, in the 1/100s or 1/1000s.
I think we could still have sizable 'ghost areas' where the disease was tested which have been historically empty for many generations and are avoided out of fear of a curse or lingering sickness. The recent years could see some people trying to resettle those areas and stirring up the whole 'plague zombies and mysterious disappearances' thing.
Name:
I've been using 'medicine disease' or 'medicine plague', and I think that sounds pretty good, though we could probably come up with something.
New Nexus
Well, first, there should definitely be link travel across the Appalachians. It may be through 3rd or 4th ring links, making it more difficult to do, but I think it should certainly be possible. If there's no links across the Appalachians, there DEFINITELY shouldn't be link travel over the rockies.
Secondly, I don't know if it should be a nexus, as each spiral only has the one nexus. Is this one forming a new spiral? Replacing the nexus of an old one? I could imagine a very powerful potential link in this place though, a first-ring, with all the signs that it will open regularly.
I do like the Freemasons and Ben Franklin supporting the Haudenosaunee, though sounds like a very cool plot hook, or even a whole campaign idea.
Columbia
Well, firstly, it's not that they suddenly treat them as equals. They're still immensely patronizing, particularly those fresh from Europe.
And second, it's not just a trading deal, either.
In our timeline, they were a vastly reduced shell of their former state, living on the outskirts of 'civilization'. In this setting, they've lost a lot, but nowhere near as much as the other timeline, their numbers in the east coast would be easily 10 times as many as our world. The fact that they have a much larger population makes them much more clearly a powerful people. In our world, they were all around, but in small numbers. In this one, they not only are everywhere, they likley outnumber the europeans in the area. I think over time this increased presence would impress upon the settlers that these people are their own cultures. It would probably depend both on the people in question and how long they've been here. A colonist would probably view them as, whine not equals, certainly, a group worth a bit of caution, but a newcomer from europe might well just write them off as savages.
South Vespuccia
Well, this certainly generated some conversation!
Borders
Here's an image that outlines the area of the amazon rain forest, as defined by the WWF. I think it might be a bit more expansive in this world/time frame, but it gives you a good general idea.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Amazon_rainforest.jpg
Anthropogenic Forest
That concept was described in great detail in 1491, a marvelous book, which was the first thing to put amazon biomancers in my head. It would sort of be a magical extension of their already existent control over the environment, in my mind.
Biomancer Government
I could imagine some sort of alexander or ghengis- esque fracturing of the political environment once the initial boot was sent out.
North Coast Settlement:
The previously discussed near-total lack of presence in the new world was based on the idea that they got kicked off the south american continent as a whole, but I didn't account for a more detailed look into south america and the fact the rainforest doesn't actually cover all of the landscape.
Honestly, I haven't yet had the chance to do a lot of detailed research into it, I'm just saying what we came up with durin' the meeting.
If the spanish held it, they can probably hold it now, though I'd like to get into the research in a bit more detail before tossin' it in.
Guyana
Alright, research says the dutch own it at this point, so that's canon. Their colonies would have been established just before the biomancer rebellion, so they'd be pretty nervous.
Colombia
Ugh, force of habit. We should rename this for the sake of things being not-maddening.
Malta Atlantica
I did not ever realize there were two rainforests. That does change things, though perhaps not enormously.
Still, nobody can argue that the colonists didn't do awful, awful things to the natives of the region.
Fleeing into the forest
Clearly it can't be all that simple to get into the deep forest, considering we're still encountering yet-undiscovered native groups in the amazon.
Divinations
They do exist, but they are relatively rare, if memory serves. We should probably address that.
The fact that all these groups would be fighting against each other doesn't really seem like it would open the door to foreign conquest. Germany was made of hundreds of tiny states, and france never marched over there and conquered it. These guys are controlling biological entities of incredible strength and durability. I'm sure many of them could sink, or at least heavily damage, a whole ship all by themselves. And they're not likely to forget the kind of crap the last europeans did to them, so I don't think that the spaniards could work their usual 'you and him fight' techniques.
Plus, this is only one potential outcome.
Southeast
Yup, definitely confusing them. Still wasn't aware there were two. Anyways, south of the JUNGLES, then.
I never said it was all desert, I said it was mostly steppes and had a big desert in the south.
It might make for good sheep farming, but I don't think that wool is a precious or rare enough commodity that it would be worth the costs of setting up a colony and shipping cross-Atlantic, considering the technology level.
I suppose a better term would be 'sparsely inhabited'. The guy who brought it up in the chat said it was mostly empty when they Europeans arrived, and I believed him.
Palanan
2014-06-01, 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Here's an image that outlines the area of the amazon rain forest, as defined by the WWF.
I'm familiar with the region.
I'll see your WWF graphic, and raise you a more detailed figure (http://www.pnas.org/content/106/48/20359/F1.large.jpg) from PNAS, showing the other major biomes of the Neotropics. (Note this figure doesn't show any of the mata ciliar, the gallery forests which extend along the narrow floodplains of rivers in the Cerrado.)
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
I did not ever realize there were two rainforests. That does change things, though perhaps not enormously.
Most Americans haven't heard of the Mata Atlântica, so no worries.
I'm assuming you haven't heard of the Cerrado or Caatinga either.
:smalltongue:
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Alright, research says the dutch own [Guyana] at this point, so that's canon. Their colonies would have been established just before the biomancer rebellion, so they'd be pretty nervous.
Also keep in mind that in the mid-1600s the Dutch invaded and occupied a large section of colonial Brazil, which they held for several decades against persistent guerilla warfare from the "native" Brazilians, who at that point were mixed-race descendants of the original Portuguese settlers and local indigenous peoples.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Clearly it can't be all that simple to get into the deep forest, considering we're still encountering yet-undiscovered native groups in the amazon.
Considering those groups walked there in the first place, it's really not that hard. :smalltongue:
As for penetrating the deep Amazon, the Roosevelt-Rondon expedition is a good example of how far you can go on raw human muscle, even when the watercraft you're using are completely inappropriate for the task at hand--and, most importantly, when you're utterly determined. River of Doubt (http://www.amazon.com/River-Doubt-Theodore-Roosevelts-Darkest/dp/0767913736/) is a bit of a frothy, overdramatized book, but it does give a sense of how deeply Roosevelt threw himself into the expedition, not to mention how remarkable Rondon really was. Anyone of similar focus, drive and resources could have done the same.
I would also recommend you look into the quilombos, which were essentially independent city-states in the deep forest, established by escaped African slaves. They'd been taken from equatorial rainforest in Africa, and they were able to adapt to the Amazon well enough for their communities to last for decades or longer.
.
Admiral Squish
2014-06-01, 08:33 PM
South America
Borders:
That was directed to Steckie, who asked where exactly the border would be between the Portuguese and the amazonians.
That is so much better, I only wish there were a version that covered all of south america.
Biomes:
Yeah, I feel thoroughly ignorant, honestly. I know even less about south america than I did about north america when I started this, which turned out to be jack squat.
But yeah, I haven't heard anything about those two.
Dutch
Yeah, I just stumbled upon that while checking out colonial Brazil.
I was planning to put the amazonian rebellion at somewhere like 1630-1650, about 100-120 years after the first permanent European settlements were established.
Deep forest
Perhaps it's less an issue of difficulty to get there, as it is about the difficulty of finding something in the deep jungle that doesn't want to be found. The point is, it's certainly possible to disappear into the jungle if you try, as evidenced by the quilombos. (I had heard about those, though I didn't know the name, thanks to my dear brother)
AtlanteanTroll
2014-06-02, 09:23 AM
Non-Humans
Being a nonhuman in Columbia is a risky business. At best, you’re out of place but they will deal with you, they may even make special accommodations if you make it worth their effort. At worst, you’re actively hunted by the people. It’s hard to hide your true nature, especially for some. Some more human kinds, such as giantkin, little folk, and witch bloods, are more likely to be accepted. Others, like spirit-born or coatls, are all but impossible to integrate.
Wait ... Are there not native humans in Columbia?? Sorry if that's an ignorant question, but the phrasing here has confused me. I was assuming that there were...
Admiral Squish
2014-06-02, 11:34 AM
Wait ... Are there not native humans in Columbia?? Sorry if that's an ignorant question, but the phrasing here has confused me. I was assuming that there were...
There are native cultures in the Columbia region, significantly more so than there were in our world, but I was specifically referring to the European areas of it. Columbia is characterized by the Europeans and their influence, the native cultures and their norms are covered in other areas.
Steckie
2014-06-02, 02:22 PM
Medicine Disease
Tribes
From what i can find about the Great Basin, the Anasazi didn't live there. Sure, they lived just outside the border of it, but not inside it.
The tribes i've found so far living in the Great Basin are: Shoshone, Ute, Paiute, Mono, Kawaiisu and Chemchuevi. Maybe there are some more, but i'm not sure on that.
The Anasazi, Mogollon, Hohokam and Patayan are usually lumped together under the name 'Ancient Pueblo People'. I actually figured these were the ones we were referring to when we talked about the Hisatsinom?
Disease
I think it's best to have a higher death toll than 1/1000. 1/100 might work for the later medicine diseases. But the first ones, the ones where they only just figured out how to do it should have a higher death toll.
10% is pretty high but it's doable, it's not society-breakdown-high. 5% is probably too low. Especially if you want a decrease in Native populations.
Killing the whole Great Basin culture could actually work. If they created the disease in the belief that it's safe and spread it over the whole population, they would all get infected at roughly the same time. An incubation period of a week or so would give them enough time to infect everybody while not yet noticing how badly they screwed up.
They would all die roughly around the same time as well, making for a terrible shock to the Hisatsinom when they realise what's happening.
I wouldn't let those disease still linger, without hosts they would probably quickly die out, but the fear of those diseases would run pretty deep.
Only outsiders like the Fusangese and Mexica would ignore the warnings and start new settlements in the Great Basin. Maybe the Hisatsinom as well if the other two don't get themselves killed.
Plague 'zombies'
Is this something you'd want to add to the setting or is it something too similar to some zombie/mutant/whatever movies?
And would they be people still infected by the disease or a human ofshoot that got changed by the magical disease? Meaning their natural form is a human looking pocked body. Maybe completely hairless?
Appalachian Link
A first circle ring would work as well. You're right, there's no need for it to be a Nexus.
Do you like the English Royal Society and the French Académie française trying to get in on it as well? Or is it mostly the Freemasons and the Haudenosaunee that you like?
The Freemasons could be a bit of a unifying factor, trying to get the colonies to start a revolution in unison. Not that they have had much succes so far, but they're trying.
South Vespuccia
I like the Alexander or Genghis-esque fracturing of the Amazonian Empire.
A scenario like this would probably mean the Genghixander is a very powerfull biomancer. And his 'generals' would be biomancers themselves.
North Coast
The Spanish held the north coast historically, yes. Probably best to keep it that way.
I do have a solution for the Portugal problem though: French Guiana.
The French colonised it in 1624, but were forced to abandon it because the Portugese weren't too happy about them being there. The settlers returned in 1630 and were able to establish Cayenne in 1643 only to be driven out by Natives. In 1664 they succeeded in making a permanent settlement.
If you put the Amazonian rebellion at 1630-1650, there would be some French settlers there during that period. And when the Portugese get driven out of Brazil they flee to the coast. There they either get on their boats and sail somewhere closeby or just walk northwards along the coast.
They take over French Guiana, and becaue of their relatively large population on a smaller area they are able to witstand further Native attacks.
Pokonic
2014-06-02, 04:09 PM
On the subject of 'zombies';
There's enough historical nasties to populate the world, and if one wanted a unnatural looking dead human, one could throw in a possessing spirit or some sort of more appropriate undead. Plague spirits could be a thing, but they should just be a threat that get mentioned in the same breath as windigoes and the nastier forms of skinwalking creatures; if the party get's involved with them, they are probably around mid-level because the alternative is that some new character sheets need to be drawn up.
This an't Deadlands, gosh darnit. :smallbiggrin:
Admiral Squish
2014-06-02, 05:48 PM
Medicine Disease
Great Basin/Hisatsinom
I found some maps to help illustrate what I'm talking about.
Here's the great basin cultural area, the brown outline in the map.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/GB-Definition-Map.jpg
And here's a map of the ancient pueblo peoples, the scientific name for the groups we are calling the hisatsinom:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Ancient-Regions.svg
As you can see, the anasazi and pataya peoples both occupied areas that we would describe currently as great basin tribe areas, and if the hisatsinom continued to exist, it's unlikely these tribes would have developed in the region.
Death Toll
The whole point is that we don't want to reduce the overall population of the interior too dramatically, as the new status quo of the new world depends heavily on the continued existence of a supermajority of the indigenous population.
I think somewhere in the middle, like 7.5%, would probably work for the initial plague, decreasing to 1% or decimals in future medicine diseases.
I don't know, I think the likeliest scenario would be to have a test run escape containment. The magical disease gets out, it's highly aggressive and virulent, and rapidly wipes out the entire village, or possibly an entire canyon-length it was created in. It would still be a terrible loss, particularly if there was any sizable settlements in the area, but I don't think it would have been a total 'wipe the map clean' situation. In the scenario you propose, why would the disease spreaders stop at the edges of their culture? And if the infected take a week to incubate, that seems like plenty of time for at least one of them to trade something to a neighboring culture and restart the process.
Plague 'zombies'
Eh, I could imagine a plague spirit, sort of like the Acheri (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16892242&postcount=31), but plague zombies is probably a bit too much, now that I think about it.
Appalacian Link
Sorry, should been clear. I like all of it, but I particularly like the freemasons. I actually have a little book of freemason symbolism and such in my bookshelf.
I like the idea of the masons trying to unite the colonies, though I think that perhaps they don't have the most honorable of intentions.
South Vespuccia
A brief note about this discussion: for now, we should try to limit it to how it affects columbia and the colonies. I definitely want to get into it in full detail at some point, but we're not even gonna detail all that much of south america in the main book, the current plan is for it to be the first supplement to the setting.
Ghengixander
I actually laughed aloud at reading that name, and I move we use it to refer to the leader figure until/if we come up with a name.
Most likely it would be a sort of biomagocracy, with the biomancers controlling their monsters as the military, and using their magic to further improve the standard of living, such as making the trees and crops more productive.
North Coast
Okay, I could imagine something like this. Though, if memory serves, at the moment of the rebellion, the northern part of brazil was under dutch control. I think the portugese could still make it north by ship (though they would probably lose a few to sea serpents), but going north overland would be likely a no-go. Where do the dutch escapees go?
Palanan
2014-06-02, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
I think the portug[u]ese could still make it north by ship (though they would probably lose a few to sea serpents), but going north overland would be likely a no-go. Where do the dutch escapees go?
I'm a little unclear about the scenario here, but it sounds as if you want the Brazilian Portuguese settlers to leave the south Atlantic coastline--Rio, Bahia, Recife, et al.--and travel north, around Ceará and Maranhão and Marajó and the mouths of the Amazon, to the Caribbean coast of South America. Is that what you had in mind?
If so, it will be almost impossible by ship, especially in the mid-1600s. Owing to winds and currents, it was quite literally easier for the colonial trade to make the trip back to Portugal than it was to maintain contact with Maranhão and the far northeastern coastline.
Also, keep in mind that by the time of the Dutch invasion, the Portuguese settlers were Brazilians, just as much as the British colonists were Americans by the time of the Seven Years' War. Brazil is their home; they fought like hell to drive the Dutch away, and they'd fight with desperate force to keep from being driven out themselves. Most of them would be wiped out before trying the sea voyage to the Caribbean--and if they were pushed entirely off the continent, the survivors would almost certainly return to Portugal rather than venturing a far more difficult journey to the Caribbean.
Admiral Squish
2014-06-02, 11:19 PM
I'm a little unclear about the scenario here, but it sounds as if you want the Brazilian Portuguese settlers to leave the south Atlantic coastline--Rio, Bahia, Recife, et al.--and travel north, around Ceará and Maranhão and Marajó and the mouths of the Amazon, to the Caribbean coast of South America. Is that what you had in mind?
If so, it will be almost impossible by ship, especially in the mid-1600s. Owing to winds and currents, it was quite literally easier for the colonial trade to make the trip back to Portugal than it was to maintain contact with Maranhão and the far northeastern coastline.
Also, keep in mind that by the time of the Dutch invasion, the Portuguese settlers were Brazilians, just as much as the British colonists were Americans by the time of the Seven Years' War. Brazil is their home; they fought like hell to drive the Dutch away, and they'd fight with desperate force to keep from being driven out themselves. Most of them would be wiped out before trying the sea voyage to the Caribbean--and if they were pushed entirely off the continent, the survivors would almost certainly return to Portugal rather than venturing a far more difficult journey to the Caribbean.
Now that's interesting. I would never have known. Would this only apply to the southeast-facing shore of brazil, or is the same issue at work in the northeast-facing shore?
Anyways, I double-checked everything, comparing a 1650 political map of south america, that very helpful biome map, and a climate map. It turns out the Dutch part includes SOME of the amazon rain forest, but the Portuguese would still be in control of the main part surround the mouth of the river itself and a good ways inland. So, the Dutch and the Portuguese get kicked out of the northeast shore area in the (Uprising? Revolution? Apocalypse?).
Steckie
2014-06-03, 03:32 AM
Medicine disease
Great Basin/Hisatsinom
These are the maps i've been using:
http://www.delange.org/PuebloLaPlata/DSC04.jpg
http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/53/132353-004-DEBAD642.gif
http://www.buckaroohalloffame.com/graphics/GreatBasinMap.jpg
As you can see there is a small part of cultural overlap near the Four Corners, but that is not within the geological Great Basin.
Oh, and those cultural maps are from different dates, i know we can't really compare those correctly. I just want to give a rough image. The first map would be from around 1100 and the second one from after 1500.
If the Hisatsinom survived beyon 1300, they probably would have expanded a bit into the Great Basin. Most likely scenario is into the Ute and Paiute area but not much further.
Those Great Basin tribes most likely lived there for a pretty long time, probably a time before the Hisatsinom started builing their cities.
So either the Hisatsinom take over the lands of these tribes. Or they conquer it and incorporate the tribes in their nation. Actually we don't have much Natives conquering other natives so that might work. So far it's just the Triple Alliance i think.
Death Toll
Sounds good.
Plague 'Zombies'
Just to clarify, when i say zombies i don't mean zombies :smallsmile: Somebody mentioned zombies and i just took it over as a working name.
Personally i prefer a living, pocked human offshoot. They're no better or worse than normal humans but they get blamed for a lot of bad stuff because they're the offspring of a disease.
Appalachian Link
I agree, the Freemasons probably don't have the best intentions. I think a lot of the leadership would love to see themselves in power over the colonies. Either through getting elected or even by setting themselves up as a local king.
There's no reason to assume that if a revolution happens it's going to be a democratic one.
South Vespuccia
Revolution
How about the biomancer target the Europeans ships first? The Natives know that the ships are what brings the Portugese and takes away the valuables.Targeting them first and cutting off their escape would be a valid tactic. Plus, it takes out a lot of their cannons in one fell swoop.
Taking away the ships would force the Portugese to walk northward along the coast. If the biomancers come from the deep jungle that could be a logical escape route. Several Thousand Brazilian refugees walking up the coast into French Guiana and setting up shop there would be difficult to stop by the French. Especially with the relatively new and small colony they have there.
And Guiana is not within the rainforest, so maybe that's out of the range of those constructs? Maybe those constructs can't leave the jungle at all?
Also, i would remove the sea serpents from all this. The Amazonians are mostly a river and forest people, it would be difficult for them to tame sea serpents. Besides, sea serpents are big creatures. Probably built for the deep seas and those Amazonians don't have seagoing ships able to reach those serpents.
It would also make sure that the Europeans still control the seas, wich has been a big factor of the setting so far. They would also still be able to control several islands off the South Vepuccian coast and possibly project a little bit of power inland.
As an alternative to the sea serpents i present you the Amazon River Dolphin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_river_dolphin). A freshwater dolphin native to the amazon.
Revolution name
The Green Death?
The Walk of Horrors?
March of the Ents? (sorry, couldn't resist)
Question: would the medicine disease have spread into South Vespuccia? If the Spanish hold Panama the knowledge would have a hard time crossing the isthmus.
One other thing: i'm currently reading 1491. How serious am i to take this book? Is it considered closer to pseudoarchaeology or closer to hard science?
For the bioconstructs, how about they cannot be out of sight of the forest, since the biomancers must be within the forest and still see the construct in order for them to control the construct. Within the forest, the biomancer has significantly better range.
Palanan
2014-06-03, 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
So, the Dutch and the Portuguese get kicked out of the northeast shore area in the (Uprising? Revolution? Apocalypse?).
I can't emphasize enough that by 1650, the Portuguese in the coastal zones were just as settled and entrenched as the British colonists were in North America in the 1700s--and even more so, in fact, because the Portuguese had a state policy of interbreeding with native peoples.
In 1500, when Cabral made his first landfall in Brazil, he dropped off several convicted criminals whose lives had been spared for the single purpose of creating an integrated Luso-native population which would acknowledge the Portuguese crown as their rightful overlord. The convicts who survived did just this, and once settlement began in earnest there was deliberate and widespread intermarriage between Portuguese settlers and the Tupí-Guaraní tribes of the entire coastal region.
By the 1650s, the people who considered themselves Portuguese settlers were a genetic admixture of Lusitanian and Tupí-Guaraní. You need to think carefully about what cultural groups the "biomancers" will be affiliated with, because along the southeastern coastline there will be some complicated interrelationships to take into consideration.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
So, the Dutch and the Portuguese get kicked out of the northeast shore area....
Given what I've said, what you're describing isn't going to be a simple matter of hastily packing bags and hurrying away.
It will be genocide. That will be the effect of the "revolution" on the Luso-Brazilian Portuguese.
Originally Posted by Steckie
How about the biomancer[s] target the Europeans ships first? The Natives know that the ships are what brings the Portugese and takes away the valuables.Targeting them first and cutting off their escape would be a valid tactic.
Not really. By 1650 the ships are for trade and communication, not simply bringing new colonists. Anyone watching the Brazilian colonies will understand there's now a far greater population than could ever be ferried out by ship.
Originally Posted by Steckie
Plus, it takes out a lot of their cannons in one fell swoop.
You think that across 150 years, the Portuguese haven't moved a substantial number of cannons onto land?
Originally Posted by Steckie
And Guiana is not within the rainforest....
Where in the world do you get this?!
Originally Posted by Steckie
Taking away the ships would force the Portug[u]ese to walk northward along the coast.
Or stand and fight to the utter death.
As for the march north, I'm not sure if you really understand the distance or the terrain involved. This will be over a thousand miles, through the extremely xeric habitats of the Caatinga, through the near-desert dunefields of Maranhão and arid Ceará, and across the many mouths of the Amazon, into the unknown rainforests of Amapá and beyond.
No one is going to survive this on foot--and they'll know this, and they won't have any reason to believe they'll survive the attempt.
Also bear in mind that while a few geographers may understand the general outlines of the continent, the Brazilians themselves won't. There are Brazilians today, living in the central Amazon basin, who believe that England is another province in South America, somewhere between Guyana and Amapá. I've met Brazilians who think that the United States shares a physical, contiguous border with certain Middle Eastern countries.
Now imagine how much people would know about the continent in 1650. Most of them won't have any conception that there's anything to walk TO. Their only hope, once their fighting men have been killed or captured, is to flee to neighboring Tupí-Guaraní tribes and beg for shelter and eventual assimilation.
Originally Posted by Steckie
Besides, sea serpents are big creatures. Probably built for the deep seas and those Amazonians don't have seagoing ships able to reach those serpents.
If the Amazonian peoples don't have seagoing ships, that's perfectly historical and accurate.
If there are sea serpents, though, the only thing that would keep them out of the main-channel Amazon would be osmoregulatory issues--saltwater creatures unable to handle freshwater. There are plenty of anadromous and catadromous fish, however, so this likely wouldn't be a barrier.
That means sea serpents would have the run of the Amazon, from the mouths at Marajó to Iquitos in Peru.
Why Iquitos? Because today, seagoing cargo ships are able to chug their way from the Atlantic to the docks of Iquitos to take on cargo. If a diesel-powered cargo ship can do it, a sea serpent can do it.
Originally Posted by Steckie
As an alternative to the sea serpents i present you the Amazon River Dolphin. A freshwater dolphin native to the amazon.
There are, in fact, two different genera of Amazonian dolphins, Inia and Sotalia. I've seen them both, although getting good photos of Sotalia is extremely difficult and Inia almost impossible, unless you devote many months of your life to it.
Sotalia are a lot easier to see, although generally from a moderate distance. They especially like the interface of the smaller blackwater rivers, draining the virtually flat Amazonian forest, with the larger tributaries which are "brown water" on account of the sediment load they're carrying from the southern highlands and the Andes.
Where the blackwater rivers enter into the larger brownwater channels, there's a contact zone where the brown water billows out into the blackwater, like pouring coffee into a jug of dark tea. This is an interface where Sotalia likes to hunt, because river fish are disoriented by the transition and make for easier targets.
Sotalia also like riverbends in the smaller blackwater tributaries, beacuse the riverbed is deeper there and fish tend to congregate. Kingfishers like these spots too.
A Couple Thoughts on South Vespuccia
I think the best thing to do for now is to present the continent as a green-shrouded land of dark mystery, and leave the details for a later supplement. My sense is that some of the things you're proposing simply won't work, not in the way you're intending, and not with the detailed accuracy that's been developed for North Vespuccia.
The strength of the Crossroads project so far has been the interest in, and historical knowledge of, Native American and European colonial history and culture, supplemented with an awareness of internal European history and some Chinese flavor. With South Vespuccia the conversation is much less grounded in historical and biological fact, and that will show up in strong contrast to the very intriguing and plausible-feeling alternate history you've developed for North America.
.
@Palanan:
Would you find it acceptable to have a border state in the North by Panama (so just south of Central America) that serves as the farthest south one can go at that time, with South V. being developed for a second release?
Admiral Squish
2014-06-03, 02:26 PM
Map
Okay, I doodled a quick version of the whole-continent map for the new world as it is in my head at this particular moment, I'm sure I've missed a few things, and some of the lines are probably wrong, but I figured it might help people figure out where we are at the moment. If you can't read the little key at the bottom, you'll have to click through to photobucket and zoom in because for some reason it won't actually SHOW the big version. Granted, the big version's pretty huge.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g54/ewurtsmith/SimpleCrossroadsMap_zpsd6f75202.gif (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/ewurtsmith/media/SimpleCrossroadsMap_zpsd6f75202.gif.html)
Medicine Disease
Great Basin/Hisatsinom
Ahh, that a-splains it, we were looking at different maps.
Still, I believe we can both agree, there is a bit of overlap there, particularly in the southern parts.
I initially like the idea of the Hisatsinom taking over the great basin, but now I realize it would not be particularly practical. the Hisatsinom were agricultural based, and the great basin is very poor for farming, they would never be able to sustain the villages and farms the Hisatsinom way of life would require. I think they likely would take the southern reaches of the great basin with the canyons and such in the area, but too far north and it's too dry to work.
Plagued
Hmm. Would they be monsters, monsters with a playable option, or a pure playable race? Or maybe a feat or something?
Appalachian Link
Indeed, exactly what I was thinking. They would see this as an opportunity to start a new country and to insinuate their order into its very foundations.
South Vespuccia
Genocide
Now, this is a big enough issue I thought it should be first:
Yes, there was a concerted effort to interbreed with the populations of native, and yes these people would view the land as their homeland. But would the rest of the natives see them as 'kin'? They speak Portuguese. They live a Portuguese lifestyle. They would also be party to the various horrors inflicted on the rest of the natives.
I think a genocide would be viewed as a valid solution to this problem by the natives. If you look at real-world genocides, such as those in Africa or the holocaust, they don't have to have a different skin color, they don't have to live different lifestyles, or anything. The people doing the genocide can justify their targets as 'different' somehow, and in this case, there is actually an easily-noticeable difference between the people.
Additionally, I think a holocaust situation would be pretty much the kind of feeling I'm looking for. This was a sudden, horrible event that left survivors shaken and nobody's quite sure what happened to those left behind. Plus, as of now, I feel a lot of native societies may be painted with a rosy brush. They don't actually, seriously go to war against the colonists, though they may swat down invading forces or armed expeditions and set barriers against expansion. A genocide in south america would make colonists quite a bit more nervous about their native neighbors, and it would make the readers see them not quite so rosily.
Ships
Targeting the ships would likely be a valid tactic, but I think they wouldn't target ships already there, just incoming ones. After all, the goal is to get them out of the country or dead, and destroying the ships would just make them that much harder to dislodge.
Limited Area
Thinking about this, the idea has come to me that instead of using mind-controlled animals, what about using plant creatures? After all, the amazonian tribes didn't really domesticate animals in any major way, but they did practice advanced agriculture. So, what if the engineered plant creatures require terra preta to grow? Maybe they have to root in terra preta periodically to remain active? Either option indicates its own sphere of influence, the first being much wider than the latter, though the spread of the former could be made wider if the natives continued to convert soil.
My initial vision was things like horrid apes, but I think I much prefer the idea of these plants doing the job. Imagine creeping vines that grow feet each day and cling to structures, sending anchor roots into them that either shatter them or give the vines the leverage to eventually uproot or tear them down. Giant gorilla-like tree-creatures. Armies of expendable gourd-men. Bio-weapons that spit bullet-like seeds. Maybe some kind of infectious vegetable parasite that turns animals into plant zombies?
Name
Not quite...
We could just have them refer to it as the 'Amazonas Disaster'.
Walk North
The myriad of hostile environments you describe would only apply if they left from the southern coast of Brazil, the north coast would have a much shorter trip, though they would still be traveling through rain forest (speaking of, I can't seem to find a name for any south american rain forest areas other than the amazon) for many, many miles.
Atlantic Forest
The atlantic forest is fully distinct from the amazon, and I don't think the uprising in the amazon would have reached them. A brief look into it says 88% of the original forest has been destroyed, though, so I'm not sure if the WWF ecoregion is the current expanse or the full natural extent of it.
Anyways, this is definitely an important part of the Portuguese colonization, and we will most certainly have to address what happens here, even if it's 'nothing'.
Brazilwood
Vague idea: Brazilood's Portuguese name means something like 'ember wood', if I understand correctly. Should we do something with that?
Sea Serpents/dolphins
This one's a challenge.
My original vision of sea serpents was something between an oar-fish and an eel, just made giant, with very nasty teeth. Now that I think on it a bit, though, they are a largely European myth and they purportedly inhabit deep ocean, so you do have a point, they probably wouldn't be used/exist in the amazon.
I like the dolphins, definitely, but I can't help but think they wouldn't make very good weapons. I do think we should do something with them, though. Perhaps we could have them be sentient and forming their own culture? I don't think they do the pods thing as much as other dolphins, though.
I think having the revolution happen would require the natives to control the river, though, somehow. Perhaps they enlist the help of a great water spirit, or maybe a south american spirit-beast?
Land of Mystery
That's definitely my intention for the book, but we really do need to iron out the details of what happened there. Even if the book only mentions it in passing, the ripple of its effects will have a dramatic effect on how the colonies develop, and the fate of other cultures. It's all interconnected. I do understand there's a lot of learning that needs to be done before the south american region can be treated with the same accuracy and plausibility of the north american one, but I feel that if we don't talk about it, the learning will never happen and we'll continue to build around a false foundation. Even if we do have to drop the whole amazon rebellion at some point, there's still a lot to address that's important to the colonies and the rest of the world by extension.
1941
As far as I'm aware, it's just a marvelous book, and quite accurate. I can't find any scientific criticisms of the material presented, and it was quite popular for a while when it came out, so if it wasn't right, it probably would have been called on it.
SuperDave
2014-06-03, 03:45 PM
Dang, that is one extremely detailed map, bro! I'm impressed, and happy to finally see the first-ever complete map of the entire Crossroads setting!
I've got some questions for you, though:
Why would the Mammutcha be completely surrounded by the Subarctic culture? If they're trading with the Tuniit (and there's no way they wouldn't be, since they're the perfect size for Tuniit to ride like horses), then the people between them would see mammoths passing through, realize how useful they were, and adopt the lifestyle. Tuniitaq wouldn't be much of a trade confederacy if they didn't even have access to mammoths.
Are the Fusangren completely cut off by the Russians? Aren't they still hanging onto a few of the Aluetan islands, south of Novarassi? If they're hostile with Novarassi right now, then that means they're basically cut off from China, except by Links.
I think there's a little bit of Mammutcha that sticks out past the tree-line just north of the Great Slave Lake. Might wanna fix that, but it's pretty minor.
I noticed that Aztatlan doesn't border Mayalatolli. I thought that the Aztecs were in the process of conquering the Maya, or just starting to look at them slantwise?
No Iroquois League? I realize they're kind of hard to squeeze in between New Britain and Nouvelle Francais, but I feel like they're a force to be reckoned with on their own. Plus, they're really cool, and they wrote the first draft of the Constitution (http://fnx.org/blog/iroquois-confederacy-foundation-united-states-constitution)! Or were you thinking that they'd be part of Columbia, because they're more heavily involved in trade with Europeans than they are with the Cahokian League?
Why would the French tolerate viking raids at their most vulnerable point, the mouth of the St. Lawrence? I know that's how I drew it in the map I sent you, but I've reconsidered since then. In order to ensure access to their own goods, and for their colonists safety, I think the French need to control both sides of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Though not necessarily the whole thing, all the way around. They might just have armed garrisons on Newfoundland and Anticosti, to provide partial protection against the Vinlanders. This makes sense, because island populations are smaller and easier to conquer and/or convert, and it doesn't keep the players completely safe from raiders.
P.S. This isn't really about the map, but Tuniitaq proper is basically a blend of Inuit, viking, and mammoth-rider cultures at this point in history, right? Am I understanding that correctly?
Palanan
2014-06-03, 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
If you can't read the little key at the bottom....
Yup, can't read the labels at all. Maybe add larger text to the regions on the map itself?
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Maybe they have to root in terra preta periodically to remain active?
This reminds me of the twiggies from Sunless Citadel. :smalltongue:
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
The myriad of hostile environments you describe would only apply if they left from the southern coast of Brazil, the north coast would have a much shorter trip, though they would still be traveling through rain forest (speaking of, I can't seem to find a name for any south american rain forest areas other than the amazon) for many, many miles.
I may not understand the scenario you're presenting, then.
I seem to recall, earlier in this thread or the last one, that it had been decided the Portuguese wouldn't have any New World holdings at all--that they'd been turned away early on and never gained a foothold. Ideas seem to have evolved since then.
So I'm not sure if Recife, Bahia, Rio and the other historical settlements exist or not--the ones which formed the heart of early colonial Brazil. Belém came later, other settlements in the northeast later still, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.
Thus, I'm not sure where exactly any of what you've described will be happening, and the where is critical to the what and the why.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
The atlantic forest is fully distinct from the amazon, and I don't think the uprising in the amazon would have reached them.
Which leaves the question of what, exactly, will be happening with the growing colonies along the southeastern coastline. If there's no counterattack from the biomancers here, there's no reason for the Portuguese to be driven out, and suddenly you have a major Portuguese presence in South Vespuccia. In essence you have an incipient Brazilian nation, more or less contained by the Treaty of Tordesillas.
This, in turn, means that the bandeirantes would become a factor, along with the story of how Minas Gerais got its name, and much else that follows its historical trajectory. By 1750 Brazil will be Portugal's largest colony, essentially a nation unto itself and a major presence on the continent.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
The myriad of hostile environments you describe would only apply if they left from the southern coast of Brazil, the north coast would have a much shorter trip....
Also, it doesn't matter if it's a thousand miles or "only" five hundred; refugees on foot with little food or weapons won't make it.
If their towns and cities are being attacked (wherever exactly this is), then why wouldn't the refugees be harried and hunted every step of the way? These are farmers and townsfolk, traders and craftsmen's wives; most of them won't know how to survive in the forest, and most of them wouldn't even know which way to go.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
A brief look into it says 88% of the original [Atlantic] forest has been destroyed....
One hell of a lot more than that.
What remains of the Mata Atlântica are only tiny scattered fragments. I've been there: I've seen the ash floating down from the sky as the deforestation continues. There's virtually nothing left in anything remotely like its original form.
Bear in mind, however, that much of the destruction accelerated tremendously from the early- to mid-twentieth century onward. In 1650 it's a different situation.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
As far as I'm aware, [1491 is] just a marvelous book, and quite accurate. I can't find any scientific criticisms of the material presented, and it was quite popular for a while when it came out, so if it wasn't right, it probably would have been called on it.
Here's a review from several years ago (http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/lag/summary/v005/5.1cook.html) which seems guardedly positive.
The fact that Mann is a journalist rather than a scientist makes me instinctively wary; I've read too many books by journalists who care more about dramatic, sweeping statements than getting their facts right.
That said, Mann seems to have done a fair amount of background research, and this quote from the review hints of grudging approval:
For a popular work, Mann has done very well, and his narrative should help do what it was designed for. Even specialists will likely learn something, even if, for specialists[,] this is not revisionist at all, but rather a readable and convincing synthesis.
So, I'd be extremely wary of any broad-brush statements he makes that aren't backed up by specific quotes or sources. Otherwise probably okay.
Originally Posted by Mith
Would you find it acceptable to have a border state in the North by Panama (so just south of Central America) that serves as the farthest south one can go at that time, with South V. being developed for a second release?
This is up to the principals of the Crossroads project. Squish has a point when he says it needs to be worked out, but he also allows there's a learning curve, and at this point my recommendation would be to present most of South Vespuccia as terra incognita, much as Africa seems to be so far.
Originally Posted by SuperDave
No Iroquois League? I realize they're kind of hard to squeeze in between New Britain and Nouvelle Francais, but I feel like they're a force to be reckoned with on their own.
And yes, the Iroqouis would be a nation to be reckoned with, who would have their own periphery of client chiefdoms. Bear in mind that the Iroquois aren't a single monolithic entity, but five (later six) individual peoples, and they gained power and prestige trading with the Dutch, French and later English. They'll need their own space, and plenty of it.
Admiral Squish
2014-06-03, 11:38 PM
Map
Mammutcha The Mammutchadinne are surrounded by the subarctic culture because they were among the subarctic cultures before they diverged enough to warrant a unique culture of their own. Keep in mind, the Mammutcha, subarctic, Inuit, Tuniit and Vinland cultures are all part of the same political group known as Tuniitaq. The subarctic groups between the Mammutchadinne and the Tuniit might well have captured some mammut, and may ride them, but they wouldn't be part of the Mammutchadinne culture, because it's more than just riding mammut that makes them Mammutchadinne. They invented it, and their culture is entirely shaped around it. Also, mammut are not suitable to be ridden by giants, they're large-sized, not huge. They shrank a little in the domestication.
Russia Just because Fusang doesn't own the coastline all the way across, that doesn't mean they can't travel across the ocean. Russia might occasionally take a Fusang ship, but there's a lot of ocean out there. Plus, while it might be safer weather-wise to travel near the shore or the islands, they could always go straight across the water to avoid conflicts.
Aztatlan I didn't look too close into the timeline for this, I just doodled the historical maximum extent of the aztec empire and added a bit following the rio grande north, because I seem to remember that. I don't think they're touching Mayatolli, but it's entirely possible I'm wrong.
Iroquois I did indeed forget about them. So, they would be a little than their historical size. But then, their historical size is a little hard to determine... I'll see what I can doodle up.
Vinland I could imagine dropping a few of the little islands around the north edge of Columbia, but I think the big island on the northern end is important.
Tuniitaq
Tuniitaq has a lot of cross-pollination of ideas and technology, the groups are less sharply defined than in most places. Inuit, Viking, Mammutcha, Subartic, all blended together a good bit, particularly at the edges.
Key
That would probably be MORE difficult. I'm working with microsoft paint, here, and not all of them have shapes conducive to putting words in them.
South Vespuccia
The Plan
The original plan was that all of south america was devoid of European colonization. This was because, at the time, I thought the amazon was all the deep green parts on the satellite map of south america. Were this the case, the map would have been cleared of colonists in the rebellion, more or less.
Currently
Now, knowing the amazon is only that one slice, the reality of the situation is much different. The amazonian rebellion would only kick the portugese and the dutch out of the north-east facing portion of what we now call Brazil. What happens beyond that is independent of the rebellion.
Fleeing North
Okay, so, it's still a pretty impossible trip. Maybe one or two exceptionally lucky and skilled individuals might stagger up the coast from fringe settlements on the northern ends of the Portuguese settlements, but for the most part, it's not happening.
Atlantic Forest
Okay, as of the moment, the amazonian rebellion doesn't have any effect on the atlantic forest and the southern Portuguese colonies. I would like to do something with them, but I'm not certain what. Maybe ghengixander is expansionist, and makes a concerted effort to expand the terra preta areas before his death, allowing amazonian forces to reach into other forests, maybe even expanding the forest itself until the two forests merge? Or perhaps the natives of the atlantic forest follow the example of the amazonian tribes and launch a less-successful revolt of their own, a much more prolonged, drawn out effort to wipe out the Portuguese.
Invisible Wall
I can't support the idea of just creating a 'you can't do anything south of here' line. I hate them in video games, and I think that creating such a line in a sandbox setting such as this one would be even worse. with a video game, there are mechanical limitations to consider, but with a campaign setting, saying 'oh, you can't go there' is just laziness.
I think that discussing south america is very important at this point, as technically speaking, they are part of Columbia, and Portugal and Spain's fate depend heavily on their income from south america.
I agree with the fact that it is laziness to do an invisible wall, I was thinking about focusing solely on North V. at this time, sorting it out, than figuring out South V. In terms of releases, you can have the core Crossroads setting start with North V. with an expansion with South V. Sales pitch and all that.
So perhaps sort out a rough idea so it is known what territories are down there, since the colonies are all along the edges of the continent from my understanding, and then have an expansion that focuses on South V.
Admiral Squish
2014-06-04, 12:49 AM
That's pretty much the plan, as it stands.
In the book, I intend to cover South America in relatively vague detail, about the same amount of detail I cover the rest of the continents outside north america with. Then, if the crossroads book works, I will aim to make an expansion, detailing south america more thoroughly.
However, discussion-wise, we do need to figure out what happens on the continent, how it relates to the current state of Portugal and Spain, and how it affects the rest of the setting. I think now is as good a time as any, especially since it appears to be that we have a South America expert in our midst for the moment.
Other Stuff
Brute
Making progress here. Still lost on the name, I'm writing the class name as [blank] with the intention that I can find-and-replace it once I settle on a name. I dropped brute paths entirely and came up with a whole list of archetype/varieties you pick at first level, that have some relatively minor effects that scale as you level. I'm a little short on class abilities, though. The feats of strength are gonna be cool abilities, but they're not enough to make up for four or five levels. So far I've just got varieties, feats of strength, DR, bravery, and mettle.
Giantkin
Just waiting on fluff at this point. Since these guys are replacing the trollkin, I really want them to be as flavorful, if not moreso, and I'm not having much success making it happen.
I'm considering breaking down the giant heritage options and making it a list you can pick a number of powers from, just so it covers all these different kinds of giants, but I'm somewhat concerned that I'm making too highly-variable races.
I DID finally make a feat that allows the giantkin to go semi-unnoticed in human societies.
Witch-blood
I got a request earlier by PM to add elemental options to witch blood, and of course, being me, now I'm thinking of going down the full rewrite road, with mini-lists for as many as 15 possible heritages, possibly even rolling the spirit born into it.
I figure they ARE kinda euro-centric at the moment.
Considering a new name: 'touched', to focus on their identity as humans touched by some inhuman power source that has made them different somehow.
Fusang Race
I been thinking on it, and I think that we need at least one Chinese playable race. The Yilong idea doesn't really seem to be working out, does anyone have any ideas?
Pokonic
2014-06-04, 01:30 PM
Fusang Race
I been thinking on it, and I think that we need at least one Chinese playable race. The Yilong idea doesn't really seem to be working out, does anyone have any ideas?
I don't really think it's necessary; there's already the Húli Jīng, and animal-people as a whole is mostly covered by the Spirit-Born.
On that note, I would be against a merging of the spirit-born and the witch-blooded. Both fit pretty different roles; while the Spirit Born are the literal decedents from one spirit or another, the witch-blooded simply have a vaguely defined relation to a otherworldly entity. The reason the witch-born are relatively euro-centric is because they simply are; they are the kin of creatures that are not exactly wandering around the place in large numbers, or in the open for that matter.
If one wished for more options for the witch-blooded, I would generalize the name and open it up with options from elsewhere. I cannot actually figure something for Fusang; the only two things I know that pick human spouses on a regular basis in mythology are the Jinn and the Devas/Asuras, and the decendents of either would probably not end up in the Americas for obvious reasons.
Steckie
2014-06-04, 02:06 PM
However, discussion-wise, we do need to figure out what happens on the continent, how it relates to the current state of Portugal and Spain, and how it affects the rest of the setting. I think now is as good a time as any, especially since it appears to be that we have a South America expert in our midst for the moment.
Ok, so let's start at the basics and see what we have:
1) Inca Empire
2) New Spain
3) Dutch Guyana
4) Portugese Brazil
5) Amazonian Biomancers under Genghixander
6) Whatever is in the Pampa's, Patagonia,...
Now we just need to ask ourselves what we want in the game that fits historically and geographically.
Some stuff to consider:
1) The Inca empire is a huge force, but them staying the same for 250 years would be very weird. That never happened to any nation that every existed.
2) If New Spain is that much smaller, how will the reduced income and power of Spain affect the setting?
5) The Biomancers and their (attempted) genocide are an interesting lot. Perhaps it's better to put them in the game?
Some other stuff:
Here are two maps i've found that give some more detail about the colonization of Brazil. I hope they're accurate but i can't be sure. There are surpisingly few maps to be found about this subject. These maps show very large parts of the continent that are still uncolonized, but most likely they are already claimed by the nations colonizing the continent.
The maps are in german, so if there's something you don't understand just ask.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/S%C3%BCdamerika1650.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/S%C3%BCdamerika1754.png
Last thing i'd like to ask: can we think about the name South Vespuccia?
I've noticed that we seem to use the name 'Vespuccia' to refer to either both continents or to the northern part of the continent while we use 'South Vespuccia' for the Southern part.
Maybe we should just give a different name to the Southern continent. Name it after the guy that discovered Brazil, Pedro Álvares Cabral or something.
Calbria perhaps?
As for the Biomancers, how about that they can be a PC that is uncommon outside the tropics, since they manipulate growing plants, and those plants grow faster in the tropics then elsewhere. They can go other places but they have a greater difficult with using their abilities.
Palanan
2014-06-04, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
I think that discussing south america is very important at this point, as technically speaking, they are part of Columbia, and Portugal and Spain's fate depend heavily on their income from south america.
Indeed, yes. Now that we've clarified the Portuguese colonies in the southeast are alive and well, everything changes in South America.
It also means, for a start, that Portugal may well eclipse Spain in terms of wealth and global reach, since they'll have their African enterprise and their lucrative Eastern trade, as well as the colonies in Brazil.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
...but with a campaign setting, saying 'oh, you can't go there' is just laziness.
Also, that's the surest possible way to make sure your players immediately charge in that direction.
:smallsigh:
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
...and makes a concerted effort to expand the terra preta areas before his death, allowing amazonian forces to reach into other forests....
Keep in mind that terra pretas only develop slowly, over generations, so unless the Biomancer Boss has access to an epic-level Create Terra Preta spell, this won't work too well.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
...maybe even expanding the forest itself until the two forests merge?
Climate and terrain, which are fundamental to vegetation type, are working hard against you here. The reason why the southern arc of the Amazon doesn't reach any further than it does is because the landscape becomes higher and steeper, and further to the south the Cerrado is simply too dry to support lowlands rainforest. The Mata Atlântica is (or was) a tropical rainforest because it receives moisture from the trades as well as some orographic rainfall.
Also bear in mind that the central Amazon is incredibly flat. You can travel five hundred miles westward and barely rise a hundred feet in elevation. Major tributaries like the Rio Madeira have a tremendous volume that's coming down from the Andes, but sometimes the smaller blackwater rivers are just creeping along.
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Or perhaps the natives of the atlantic forest follow the example of the amazonian tribes and launch a less-successful revolt of their own....
This is probably your best bet if you really want this to happen, but then there's the question of how the natives in the Mata Atlântica are even aware of what's going on in the Amazon. The Cerrado is colossal, and not lightly or easily traveled--especially not for people who are at home in rainforest habitat. Unless there's some form of magical communication, I wouldn't expect these two sets of native peoples to have much knowledge of each other.
Originally Posted by Steckie
Maybe we should just give a different name to the Southern continent. Name it after the guy that discovered Brazil, Pedro Álvares Cabral or something.
This would certainly help keep the continents distinct, and avoids any confusion between "South Vespuccia" and "southern Vespuccia." If we use a Portuguese name, it will also signal Portugal's strong interest in this part of the world.
Cabral himself initially thought he'd landed on a large island--and late medieval maps showed a variety of fictional islands in that approximate area--so he chose the name Ilha de Vera Cruz, "Island of the True Cross." By 1519 the region was appearing on maps as "Terra Brasilis" or even "Mundus Novus Brazil," and if the Portuguese are the primary European power on the continent, it's likely it'll become known generally as Brasil, or perhaps Grande Brasil.
Personally I would be tempted to name it Hy-Brasil, but that's more of an Irish myth than Poutuagese. Unless of course that is the same Island Cabral thought he had found with a slightly different name.
Admiral Squish
2014-06-04, 08:34 PM
Huli Jing
Unfortunately, the Huli Jing are scheduled to be removed once I get another option up as running. As much as I really enjoy the race, and how cool I think them to be, they would, at the very least, require a full rewriting in order to make them line up with the jing myths. This was actually discussed some time ago, I've just been reluctant to follow through because... well, they're just so cool! Essentially, I created them as a distinct race of fox anthros with the power to turn into foxes and a handful of illusion powers, basing them off what the huli jing did in the myths. Only later did I find out how the huli jing come about, and it comes from a completely different direction than I thought. The huli jings of the myth are actually created from foxes once they reach a certain age/spiritual power, gaining sentience, speech, and the ability to take on human form, plus more magic power later on. At best, I would need to entirely write the huli jing over to make them jive, and if I do that, it seems like it would be artificial of me to say you can play them but no other varieties of jing. At worst, they need to be scrapped entirely and made into monsters instead.
Touched
Well, part of the idea for the expansion was to spread it out so that there are options for player characters that are influenced by all the different categories of spirits. Hunt, Herd, Wood, Ancestor, Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Chaos, Evil, Good and Law. If I keep the spirits of hunt and herd on the list, I can't honestly think what I would give them if not the abilities from spirit-born. Anyways, part of the new thing would be stripping out the columbia-centric nature of the race and making it so you can have one of these guys from anywhere, influenced by any kind of spirit you want, either through their bloodline or through being exposed to their powers when young.
I'm also debating if I would be dropping more earthly influences or adding more, expanding the choices to Abberations, Dragons, Fey and Undead.
South Vespuccia
Firstly, those maps are awesome, and perfectly timed for our purposes. We have a map of what it normally looked like at the rebellion and a map of what it would normally look like at the current day.
Tawantinsuyu
Holdings The entire Andes chain, and the west coast.
Real World In the real world, Pizarro made three expeditions to south america, the first two unsuccessful, though he found evidence of gold and silver on the second one, and was denied permission to launch a third by the governor. He had to appeal to the king directly to get permission. On the third mission, he was much more successful, and he captured the inka, ransomed him for a room full of gold, executed him, then finally entered Cuzco and completed his conquest. He then co-opted the milpa system to use the citizens of the empire as slave labor in gold and silver mines with simply spectacular death rates.
This World In this world, we could easily say that Pizarro had his first, very unsuccessful mission (his partner lost an eye to an arrow), and then was simply denied permission to go back, particularly after the fiasco in Aztatlan. Now, this isn't a permanent solution, as eventually, somebody would go down there and find gold and start the process over, just later down the road. I think we could prevent this, however, by having reports of the bizarre contact with the Spaniards filter down through the empire and eventually reach the diviners, who look into it and see the potential disaster coming. So, the Inka moves to protect their empire from further attacks, developing the 'welcoming committee' system to deal with landing forces, and creating a tightly-controlled trading post to hopefully satisfy the foreigners who crave their gold.
Then we have two problems: One, once they get the trading post going, the spaniards know there's valuables to be found in the Tawantinsuyu, and while trading might satisfy them temporarily, they would eventually want ALL OF IT, and launch a conquest. Second is disease, which the Tawantinsuyu would have no immunity to, and which would spread into the empire as the trade goods did, as evidenced by the infamous smallpox blankets.
I'm honestly not sure how to resolve those two in a way that leaves the empire intact, which seems important for the setting to stay awesome. I considered the idea that they might convert at this point to a full deathless leadership option. The commoners would remain human and vulnerable to the disease, but with the deathless council already there, it could be that they converted all the officials they could get to in time into deathless. This would allow them to maintain a strong governmental system, despite the massive death toll. I briefly entertained the idea of converting all the citizenry to deathless, but that poses a buttload of problems all its own. Still, even with the central government intact, without a stable population they can't muster the militia forces that would be necessary to repel the all-but-inevitable Spanish invasion.
Details
All former Inka are made into deathless, who serve as a council to the current Inka, who is a normal human. The mortal Inka is technically the head of the government, but more often than not he is manipulated or puppeted by the council.
The government is also advised at various levels by astonomer-diviners, who use their study of the stars to focus their divination abilities and predict future events or see distant things. Not sure if these guys should be deathless too.
Tawantinsuyu is connected by a strong link spiral, which follows the spine of the andes for the most part. The diviners are able to predict the links with great accuracy, which allows them to use it very efficiently to move people and information around the empire with great speed. They can't warp to any point in the empire, but they can get pretty close, since their holdings are so narrow.
Spain
Holdings Most of the north coast of the continent, east of panama and west of the amazon. Rio De La Plata?
Real World The first actual attempt at settlement was in Rio de la Plata, south of where the Portuguese were. That one died. They tried making Buenos Aires in 1536, that one was chased out by natives in five years. They did have another one further up the river called Asuncion, from which they later resettled the Buenos Aires area, which actually lasted this time. In 1537-1543, they entered highland Colombia and established New Grenada, which was part of the Viceroyalty of Peru.
This World If the conquest of Tawantinsuyu never happened, there's no Viceroyalty of Peru. I don't think this would much change the way it went, though, in the north. They subjugate the natives, set up New Grenada, which becomes its own thing rather than part of a separate thing. Probably doesn't go quite so far south, though, without a conquered peru to back up against. I am curious about the fate of Rio de la plata though. 1541 would be well into the aztatlan conflict and with nothing much coming from Peru, they might well decide to throw up their hands regarding Buenos Aires' loss, not having the resources at the time to spend on rebuilding it again after it gets evacuated. Asuncion survived though... perhaps without support from the sea they eventually disappear as well.
This really does change the tone of things. New Granada would be their biggest successful conquest in the new world, and they would definitely do their damnedest to milk it for every last dollar they could. Especially considering this was the source of the El Dorado legend. They would be able to mine for gold and emeralds, and, this being some of their largest land holdings, they could use it for agricultural products, too, like cotton, maize, cocoa, potatoes (which become a big deal in europe pretty quick), and apparently, the natives also produced salt, which was pretty valuable throughout history.
Details
I really want El Dorado to be a real thing somewhere in the highlands. The natives keep it a secret, and send the Spaniards running in circles, directing their expeditions in all sorts of different ways, usually toward their enemies or into very dangerous terrain.
This might well be the source of potatoes in the rest of the world, which dramatically changed the face of agriculture in much of Europe.
Portugal
Holdings Formerly: Entire coastline of modern Brazil. Currently: The point and southern coastline of Brazil, including the Atlantic forest.
Real World In the real world, colonization started with captaincy colonies in 1534, of which only two survived, thanks to native resistance. Initially, they aggressively harvested brazilwood to sell as a dye back home, but as permanent colonies were set up, they started farming sugarcane, the labor demands of the crop being met with native, then african slaves. They also captured and sold native slaves in large numbers. Their holdings spread all through the amazon and much of the interior of the continent.
This World History remains much the same until 1630-50, at which point we have the amazonian rebellion. The Portuguese lose control of all their amazonian holdings, almost everyone dies. Brazilwood, sugarcane, and slave trade all take major hits from this, but they retain their southern holdings and continue to profit from them. They launch a few unsuccessful attempts to retake the amazon, but are always repelled at the shoreline or the mouth of the river. Eventually, they more-or-less give up the attempt and refocus their resources on their current holdings. Native resistance continues to increase as the slavers get more aggressive and the plantations clear more and more land. The southern coast of brazil is somewhat less accessible to european ships, apparently, so that would also hurt the bottom line. Oh, apparently, the bandeirantes discovered gold in southern brazil, which led to a brazilian gold rush in the 1700s. So, Portugal is still making some very good money off their colonies.
Details
I still would like to do something with brazilwood. Perhaps in addition to being a valuable dye, it also has alchemical properties that let it be easily converted to alchemist's fire, or an addition of brazilwood extract makes alchemist's fire more potent? Perhaps the natives know how to use this?
Amazonas
Holdings The amazon rainforest ecoregion, somewhat extending into the northern forests beyond the amazon.
Real World In the real world, the Portuguese dominated the area. They used it for sugarcane harvesting and regularly sent expeditions into the forest for native slaves and to search for mineral wealth as the native populations fell.
This World In this world, the portugese held the amazon river delta and a bit up the river, going further and further up it. Many natives fought them but found their efforts ineffective. Eventually, around 1610, a powerful druid went up and down the amazon river, gathering spell-casters from all along the river for a great effort to destroy the foreigners. They went into the heart of the amazon and went to work for the next 40 years, developing living plant creatures they could control and set against the foreigners, and various plant-based weapons. The druid was killed by a bandeirante expedition just a few years before the plan was ready to go. His relatively young but highly talented son (ghengixander) took over the project though charismatic leadership, and led the floramancer forces against the Portuguese in 1550. His attacks were swift, unexpected, brutal, and bloody. All in all, a total genocide of all Portuguese presence in the forest took three years. Ghengixander and his floramancers became the de-facto leaders of Amazonas. Throughout his life, he established a unified government, ruling through the floramancer generals who joined his father in the first place, Established an official language (spoken as a second language by most), created a training system to develop young magical talents into floramancer officials, and expanded the Amazonas political borders to match the edges of the forest. His government was very isolationist, allowing no contact with the foreigners, ensuring that any who attempted to enter the rainforest never made it back out, and shunning foreign technologies. When he passed away in 1680, the floramancer generals squabbled over who would take his seat, a violent, but relatively short clash, that ended when the generals agreed to hold seperate territories, divided by rivers and limited by the edges of the forest. Each general took a sizable portion of the whole empire, each independent state's borders outlined by the edges of the forest and separated by various rivers. Now each state has its own unique political setup and policies, though most maintain Ghengixander's policy against foreign influence.
Details
Between 5-10 distinct states, any more than that will get needlessly complex.
Plant-based military monsters. The creations are mostly mindless, obeying anyone who can speak with plants. Veggie warriors, regenerating shock troops, treelike living siege, and possibly some kind of sense-sharing vine?
Should floramancer be a prestige class or a base class in its own right?
Netherlands
Holdings Formerly: Just north of the eastern tip of south america, a small section north of the amazon. Currently: small section on the north coast.
Real World The Dutch held a large portion of the south part of the amazon from 1630 until 1649, when they got kicked out by the portugese, officially giving back control of the area in 1654. They had land in modern-day Guyana that traded hands back and forth between the English and the Dutch several times. They also held a section of Chile, but abandoned it within 2 years. In 1667, they traded their north american colonies for their sugar plantations in modern-day Suriname, then sold them to the dutch west india company in 1683.
This World Well, this is a bit of a tangled mess, but I'll try to sort it out. The dutch held the amazon territories until they lost in 1649. Once booted, many eventually returned to Guyana and Suriname holdings. The next year, the amazonian rebellion took place, and the portugese in the amazon got genocided. The dutch more or less thanked their luck and doubled-down on Guyana and Suriname, though they kept a wary eye on Ghengixander and his forces. Thankfully, they never quite reached the northern coast in their political expansion, but the dutch still keep a larger-than-usual military force in their colonies. Eventually conflicts with the british, the french, and the natives became too costly to deal with, and they sold their whole north coast area to the dutch west india company and the crown refocused on New Amsterdam. The company now runs the colonies with a single-minded profit focus.
Details
The dutch west india company controls the south american holdings now, but the colonies are still full of dutch people.
These colonies are within the span of rainforest on the maps I find, perhaps one of the floramancer generals should make a move to expand into it?
Patagonia
Holdings Cerrado, Gran Chaco, Pampas, and Patagonian Steppe. Does NOT include the Andes.
Real World Initial contact with the groups of the Patagonia region was relatively passive. Then the Spanish settled Rio de la Plata and their inland settlement whose name escapes me. Buenos Aires was abandoned due to native resistance, but was eventually resettled. The Spanish connected these settlements to their Peru territories east-to-west across this region. They spread disease as they usually did, and may have exploited the natives, but I can't find much evidence that they did much active enslavement/massacre-ing.
This World If we have the Spanish with no holdings in Peru, and they abandon the Rio de la Plata after they got kicked out by natives, then this area ends up more or less untouched. Maybe the Portuguese might take the pampas after losing the amazon, but moving too much further inland doesn't make much sense. Outside the pampas, the soil is unsuitable for growing any of the European cash crops, and the native populations aren't dense enough, particularly at this point, to make slave-hunting a valid economic tactic. Sheep farming would work, but who would import wool from inland south america when you can get it SO much cheaper locally? Cattle farming happens now, but in 1750, you can't export meat fast enough for it to be good when it arrives. I think, overall, it would likely end up closely resembling the north american great plains.
Details
Patagon giants, twice as tall as men, were described by the europeans first making contact (It's believed they just exaggerated the 6'6" natives). We have giantkin. This seems like it could be pretty awesome.
There's a lot of potential for exotic animals here. Rhea, guanaco, and such. We could have some south american megafauna lingering here, like ground sloths.
Name
Well, I refer to it as 'Brasilia' in the first post. We could easily enough use 'Cabralia', or 'Terra/Mundus Novus/Grande Brasil'.
Pokonic
2014-06-04, 10:03 PM
Huli Jing
Unfortunately, the Huli Jing are scheduled to be removed once I get another option up as running. As much as I really enjoy the race, and how cool I think them to be, they would, at the very least, require a full rewriting in order to make them line up with the jing myths. This was actually discussed some time ago, I've just been reluctant to follow through because... well, they're just so cool! Essentially, I created them as a distinct race of fox anthros with the power to turn into foxes and a handful of illusion powers, basing them off what the huli jing did in the myths. Only later did I find out how the huli jing come about, and it comes from a completely different direction than I thought. The huli jings of the myth are actually created from foxes once they reach a certain age/spiritual power, gaining sentience, speech, and the ability to take on human form, plus more magic power later on. At best, I would need to entirely write the huli jing over to make them jive, and if I do that, it seems like it would be artificial of me to say you can play them but no other varieties of jing. At worst, they need to be scrapped entirely and made into monsters instead.
I have to contest the reason for dropping them as a distinct species; while it's a common running theme regarding eastern mythical animals to simply be exceptional individuals of that species that obtained mystical power due to age, like the Japanese Nekomata, there's a wide variety of ambiguity in the myths regarding them, just like any other mythical creature. Because it's unlikely that there would be anyone around who would have lived to a thousand years to see a small animal suddenly become a minor magical nuisance, I would chalk up the entire aspect of them as a in-universe widespread misunderstanding spread by the fox-folk themselves, for the sake of keeping themselves being seen as powerful and mysterious to humanity in general.
As for the other kinds of Jing, for the most part, they tend to be obscure entities that one would be hard pressed in finding stuff about even in sources dedicated to Chinese legends, simply because they are quite obscure and don't tend to feature in folktales, or appear in them, for that matter.
Should floramancer be a prestige class or a base class in its own right?
Perhaps a Prestige class. I am thinking of an option I had for a cleric in 1E to become basically a desert Druid if I chose to take the Druid path at 9th (36 lvl progression, not 20). Maybe in order to become a floramancer, have a Druid have to find a patron kingdom/general to initiate him into the ranks of the floramancer, forswearing all previous loyalties and ties.
Steckie
2014-06-05, 07:34 AM
Tawantinsuyu
Territory
The territory you give them is the whole Andes. The Andes goes all the way south to the tip of Patagonia. Maybe even Tierra Del Fuego?
This means Tawantinsuyu probably controls the Southern passage. I seem to remember them having ships 20-30 meters long made from woven reeds.
They probably can't expand northward anymore because of the Spanish presence, but what about eastward over the Andes?
Valuables and immunity
Why not let Pizarro attempt his conquest of Tawantinsuyu?
He doesn't succeed in any of his attempts and on the third expedition he and his men are captured. Pizarro and his men are kept alive and questioned. The Tawantinsuyu Diviners are able to determine that they are the source of the disease that started the civil war years earlier and that the cure might lie within them.
So they study the Spaniards and eventually succeed in somehow finding a way to either end the epidemics or make the death toll a lot smaller.
But Pizarro is smart enough and eventually he and several of his men betray Spain and start trading technology for their lives and freedom. They are even given women.
(Maybe it's the mixed Spanish-Native blood of their children that holds the secret to resisting disease? Same could happen in the Amazon where the biomancers have used the mixed Portuguese-Native blood to resist diseases only to turn around and start a genocide because they are impure)
This would make Tawantinsuyu a technologically advanced, densely populated and rich nation. There is most likely a sizable catholic minority. And there may even be descendants of Pizarro running around.
Deathless
I'm not a fan of using the Deathless again as an important part of the government for a Native nation. The Amiqui are already very important in the Triple Alliance. Having a second kind of deathless doing the same thing would feel like lazyness.
I seem to remember the Tawantinsuyu people keeping the mummies of previous rulers around and their families 'translated' their opinions from the spiritual to the normal world.
Why not keep it like that? The families of the previous Inkas have very powerfull Speak with dead spells available and use it to communicate with them beyond the Spirit World. They can hear everything those previous Inkas say, but it's very difficult to interpret and that's where the families come in. They might occasionally interpret something purposely wrong if it serves them, but overall they listen to the advice.
If the mummy gets destroyed, they don't have a focus point for their speak with death spells and they can't contact that Inka anymore. Basically, he died again.
Amazonia
History
Sounds decent overall.
5-10 successor states seems a bit much though, i think 5 would be about maximum but i prefer 4 or so. The empires of both Genghis and Alexander split in 4 states if i remember my historical atlas well. And 4 generals would seem like a decent number to support him, any more and you'll have infinite squabbling while discussing tactics.
Quilombo
Would the Biomancers target Quilombos as well? Or would the escaped slaves that make the population be forced to flee or be killed as well?
If so, what happens with the survivors when they reach safer land?
Option 1: the survivors mix with the Portuguese. Probably wont work since the remaining part of Portuguese Brazil still uses slaves and would just enslave them again.
Option 2: they get killed, and their cities are dungeons to explore.
Option 3: they are spared by the Biomancers but deported south, out of Amazonia. Maybe into the Cerrado? Or even Gran Chaco or the Pampas? There they mix with the natives and form something new.
WeepyDevil
2014-06-05, 10:06 AM
I haven't seen much yet, but I'd just like to say that this is incredibly awesome.
Aux-Ash
2014-06-05, 10:59 AM
Tawantinsuyu
Holdings The entire Andes chain, and the west coast.
Real World In the real world, Pizarro made three expeditions to south america, the first two unsuccessful, though he found evidence of gold and silver on the second one, and was denied permission to launch a third by the governor. He had to appeal to the king directly to get permission. On the third mission, he was much more successful, and he captured the inka, ransomed him for a room full of gold, executed him, then finally entered Cuzco and completed his conquest. He then co-opted the milpa system to use the citizens of the empire as slave labor in gold and silver mines with simply spectacular death rates.
This World In this world, we could easily say that Pizarro had his first, very unsuccessful mission (his partner lost an eye to an arrow), and then was simply denied permission to go back, particularly after the fiasco in Aztatlan. Now, this isn't a permanent solution, as eventually, somebody would go down there and find gold and start the process over, just later down the road. I think we could prevent this, however, by having reports of the bizarre contact with the Spaniards filter down through the empire and eventually reach the diviners, who look into it and see the potential disaster coming. So, the Inka moves to protect their empire from further attacks, developing the 'welcoming committee' system to deal with landing forces, and creating a tightly-controlled trading post to hopefully satisfy the foreigners who crave their gold.
Then we have two problems: One, once they get the trading post going, the spaniards know there's valuables to be found in the Tawantinsuyu, and while trading might satisfy them temporarily, they would eventually want ALL OF IT, and launch a conquest. Second is disease, which the Tawantinsuyu would have no immunity to, and which would spread into the empire as the trade goods did, as evidenced by the infamous smallpox blankets.
I'm honestly not sure how to resolve those two in a way that leaves the empire intact, which seems important for the setting to stay awesome. I considered the idea that they might convert at this point to a full deathless leadership option. The commoners would remain human and vulnerable to the disease, but with the deathless council already there, it could be that they converted all the officials they could get to in time into deathless. This would allow them to maintain a strong governmental system, despite the massive death toll. I briefly entertained the idea of converting all the citizenry to deathless, but that poses a buttload of problems all its own. Still, even with the central government intact, without a stable population they can't muster the militia forces that would be necessary to repel the all-but-inevitable Spanish invasion.
When I did the timeline for Aztatlan I went with the rule that no native kingdom remains unaffected by the arrival of the Europeans. The triple alliance was shaken to it's core, completely changed it's internal politics and to a degree one could argue that Aztatlan is not so much the triple alliance as a successor kingdom that conquered the TA from within. The TA was a city-state oligarchy where Tenochnitlan was the first-among-peers, Aztatlan is an empire with an entrenched multi-state military bureacracy running the state. And even then, it lost some of it's territories (and conquered some others). It went through two civil wars, it was hid by horrible epidemics (they still lost proably something akin to 20% or more of their population, but in a more manageable way than IRL) and it had to completely reinvent itself.
The state of the Mexica barely survived, and though it's a regional power, chances are that the first modern 18th century war against a european power will probably break it.
I'd argue that the same should apply to all New World States. Think India or China in terms of power. Powerful enough to make the Europeans prefer to play by their rules, but should the 18th century states really focus on it they would probably win. The trick isn't that they can't, the trick is that they don't see the point.
Ie. they get more out of trade (for now) than they would by conquest.
And remember... the firepower of a single ship-of-the-line is a terrifying thing. And those are easy to move to where you need them. And no native kingdom has them... or anything close to their equal.
Details
All former Inka are made into deathless, who serve as a council to the current Inka, who is a normal human. The mortal Inka is technically the head of the government, but more often than not he is manipulated or puppeted by the council.
The government is also advised at various levels by astonomer-diviners, who use their study of the stars to focus their divination abilities and predict future events or see distant things. Not sure if these guys should be deathless too.
Tawantinsuyu is connected by a strong link spiral, which follows the spine of the andes for the most part. The diviners are able to predict the links with great accuracy, which allows them to use it very efficiently to move people and information around the empire with great speed. They can't warp to any point in the empire, but they can get pretty close, since their holdings are so narrow.
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I think the Inca should have no deathless. There's no reason the practise would spread there on it's own. The Mexica and the Maya share much cultural connection and thus it makes sense that they (and the Mixtecs, Zapotecs and P'urepacha) would adopt the practise. But in order for the practise to spread to Peru it'd have to cross: Ecuador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Coastal Colombia, Inner Colombia, Upper Colombia and then across a sparse border. Each of those has their own cultures and their own climates.
I do like the idea of an empire run by Diviners (who sometimes gets things wrong of course; we're all humans) and I do like they having their own Link Spiral (and of course they've mapped a good portion of it). But I don't think they should have deathless. They're not mesoamerican.
Spain
Holdings Most of the north coast of the continent, east of panama and west of the amazon. Rio De La Plata?
Real World The first actual attempt at settlement was in Rio de la Plata, south of where the Portuguese were. That one died. They tried making Buenos Aires in 1536, that one was chased out by natives in five years. They did have another one further up the river called Asuncion, from which they later resettled the Buenos Aires area, which actually lasted this time. In 1537-1543, they entered highland Colombia and established New Grenada, which was part of the Viceroyalty of Peru.
This World If the conquest of Tawantinsuyu never happened, there's no Viceroyalty of Peru. I don't think this would much change the way it went, though, in the north. They subjugate the natives, set up New Grenada, which becomes its own thing rather than part of a separate thing. Probably doesn't go quite so far south, though, without a conquered peru to back up against. I am curious about the fate of Rio de la plata though. 1541 would be well into the aztatlan conflict and with nothing much coming from Peru, they might well decide to throw up their hands regarding Buenos Aires' loss, not having the resources at the time to spend on rebuilding it again after it gets evacuated. Asuncion survived though... perhaps without support from the sea they eventually disappear as well.
This really does change the tone of things. New Granada would be their biggest successful conquest in the new world, and they would definitely do their damnedest to milk it for every last dollar they could. Especially considering this was the source of the El Dorado legend. They would be able to mine for gold and emeralds, and, this being some of their largest land holdings, they could use it for agricultural products, too, like cotton, maize, cocoa, potatoes (which become a big deal in europe pretty quick), and apparently, the natives also produced salt, which was pretty valuable throughout history.
The people that colonised Rio de la Plata had little to do with Castilla del Oro (panama) and the Viceroyalties of New Spain, New Grenada and Guatemala. So I don't see any reasons rio de la plata would be affected other than the blowback from the failed conquests and the loss of interest by the spanish state. 1541 Spain isn't so much busy in mesoamerica as they are in Europe, they need to stop the french and ottomans after all. But they're still interested in round Cape Horn to get ships that way to the Phillipines... they'll need a harbour and Rio de la Plata and Asuncion are excellent ones.
Also, in my timeline I did suggest that New Grenada is indeed a thing. It's a vassal state attached to Castilla del Oro and essentially run by the bankers. The coast is spanish (the natives sadly did not survive their arrival, much like they didn't in Panama) but the highlands are allied states. When the homeland couldn't provide troops, the bankers in panama looked there and simply allied with the local kingdoms (plus you can trade cheap goods for gold there. Score!).
I named those regiments: "Los regimientos del El Dorado" btw :smallbiggrin::smallwink:
Details
I really want El Dorado to be a real thing somewhere in the highlands. The natives keep it a secret, and send the Spaniards running in circles, directing their expeditions in all sorts of different ways, usually toward their enemies or into very dangerous terrain.
This might well be the source of potatoes in the rest of the world, which dramatically changed the face of agriculture in much of Europe.
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Let's keep it a legend. Not even most natives know where it is, or even if it actually exists. Let's not ruin good plothooks. The Spanish believe it exists, but the bankers like their deal with the highland kingdoms and won't risk that for flimsy legends (besides... we all know what happens to Spaniards looking for cities/empire of gold: They die.)
Portugal
Holdings Formerly: Entire coastline of modern Brazil. Currently: The point and southern coastline of Brazil, including the Atlantic forest.
Real World In the real world, colonization started with captaincy colonies in 1534, of which only two survived, thanks to native resistance. Initially, they aggressively harvested brazilwood to sell as a dye back home, but as permanent colonies were set up, they started farming sugarcane, the labor demands of the crop being met with native, then african slaves. They also captured and sold native slaves in large numbers. Their holdings spread all through the amazon and much of the interior of the continent.
This World History remains much the same until 1630-50, at which point we have the amazonian rebellion. The Portuguese lose control of all their amazonian holdings, almost everyone dies. Brazilwood, sugarcane, and slave trade all take major hits from this, but they retain their southern holdings and continue to profit from them. They launch a few unsuccessful attempts to retake the amazon, but are always repelled at the shoreline or the mouth of the river. Eventually, they more-or-less give up the attempt and refocus their resources on their current holdings. Native resistance continues to increase as the slavers get more aggressive and the plantations clear more and more land. The southern coast of brazil is somewhat less accessible to european ships, apparently, so that would also hurt the bottom line. Oh, apparently, the bandeirantes discovered gold in southern brazil, which led to a brazilian gold rush in the 1700s. So, Portugal is still making some very good money off their colonies.
Details
I still would like to do something with brazilwood. Perhaps in addition to being a valuable dye, it also has alchemical properties that let it be easily converted to alchemist's fire, or an addition of brazilwood extract makes alchemist's fire more potent? Perhaps the natives know how to use this?
I like this, this sounds far more feasible and should allow us to keep Columbia somewhat on track.
Brazilwood having interesting properties sounds decent too. I'm supporting that idea. Note that it also grows in Belize, which is a maya kingdom in Vespuccia.
Amazonas
Holdings The amazon rainforest ecoregion, somewhat extending into the northern forests beyond the amazon.
Real World In the real world, the Portuguese dominated the area. They used it for sugarcane harvesting and regularly sent expeditions into the forest for native slaves and to search for mineral wealth as the native populations fell.
This World In this world, the portugese held the amazon river delta and a bit up the river, going further and further up it. Many natives fought them but found their efforts ineffective. Eventually, around 1610, a powerful druid went up and down the amazon river, gathering spell-casters from all along the river for a great effort to destroy the foreigners. They went into the heart of the amazon and went to work for the next 40 years, developing living plant creatures they could control and set against the foreigners, and various plant-based weapons. The druid was killed by a bandeirante expedition just a few years before the plan was ready to go. His relatively young but highly talented son (ghengixander) took over the project though charismatic leadership, and led the floramancer forces against the Portuguese in 1550. His attacks were swift, unexpected, brutal, and bloody. All in all, a total genocide of all Portuguese presence in the forest took three years. Ghengixander and his floramancers became the de-facto leaders of Amazonas. Throughout his life, he established a unified government, ruling through the floramancer generals who joined his father in the first place, Established an official language (spoken as a second language by most), created a training system to develop young magical talents into floramancer officials, and expanded the Amazonas political borders to match the edges of the forest. His government was very isolationist, allowing no contact with the foreigners, ensuring that any who attempted to enter the rainforest never made it back out, and shunning foreign technologies. When he passed away in 1680, the floramancer generals squabbled over who would take his seat, a violent, but relatively short clash, that ended when the generals agreed to hold seperate territories, divided by rivers and limited by the edges of the forest. Each general took a sizable portion of the whole empire, each independent state's borders outlined by the edges of the forest and separated by various rivers. Now each state has its own unique political setup and policies, though most maintain Ghengixander's policy against foreign influence.
Details
Between 5-10 distinct states, any more than that will get needlessly complex.
Plant-based military monsters. The creations are mostly mindless, obeying anyone who can speak with plants. Veggie warriors, regenerating shock troops, treelike living siege, and possibly some kind of sense-sharing vine?
Should floramancer be a prestige class or a base class in its own right?
I'm still a bit iffy about the whole idea, but this works for me. 5-10 successor states actually sounds quite plausible too. It's amazingly difficult terrain in there and few shared cultures in there after all.
Netherlands
Holdings Formerly: Just north of the eastern tip of south america, a small section north of the amazon. Currently: small section on the north coast.
Real World The Dutch held a large portion of the south part of the amazon from 1630 until 1649, when they got kicked out by the portugese, officially giving back control of the area in 1654. They had land in modern-day Guyana that traded hands back and forth between the English and the Dutch several times. They also held a section of Chile, but abandoned it within 2 years. In 1667, they traded their north american colonies for their sugar plantations in modern-day Suriname, then sold them to the dutch west india company in 1683.
This World Well, this is a bit of a tangled mess, but I'll try to sort it out. The dutch held the amazon territories until they lost in 1649. Once booted, many eventually returned to Guyana and Suriname holdings. The next year, the amazonian rebellion took place, and the portugese in the amazon got genocided. The dutch more or less thanked their luck and doubled-down on Guyana and Suriname, though they kept a wary eye on Ghengixander and his forces. Thankfully, they never quite reached the northern coast in their political expansion, but the dutch still keep a larger-than-usual military force in their colonies. Eventually conflicts with the british, the french, and the natives became too costly to deal with, and they sold their whole north coast area to the dutch west india company and the crown refocused on New Amsterdam. The company now runs the colonies with a single-minded profit focus.
Details
The dutch west india company controls the south american holdings now, but the colonies are still full of dutch people.
These colonies are within the span of rainforest on the maps I find, perhaps one of the floramancer generals should make a move to expand into it?
Sounds plausible.
Patagonia
Holdings Cerrado, Gran Chaco, Pampas, and Patagonian Steppe. Does NOT include the Andes.
Real World Initial contact with the groups of the Patagonia region was relatively passive. Then the Spanish settled Rio de la Plata and their inland settlement whose name escapes me. Buenos Aires was abandoned due to native resistance, but was eventually resettled. The Spanish connected these settlements to their Peru territories east-to-west across this region. They spread disease as they usually did, and may have exploited the natives, but I can't find much evidence that they did much active enslavement/massacre-ing.
This World If we have the Spanish with no holdings in Peru, and they abandon the Rio de la Plata after they got kicked out by natives, then this area ends up more or less untouched. Maybe the Portuguese might take the pampas after losing the amazon, but moving too much further inland doesn't make much sense. Outside the pampas, the soil is unsuitable for growing any of the European cash crops, and the native populations aren't dense enough, particularly at this point, to make slave-hunting a valid economic tactic. Sheep farming would work, but who would import wool from inland south america when you can get it SO much cheaper locally? Cattle farming happens now, but in 1750, you can't export meat fast enough for it to be good when it arrives. I think, overall, it would likely end up closely resembling the north american great plains.
Details
Patagon giants, twice as tall as men, were described by the europeans first making contact (It's believed they just exaggerated the 6'6" natives). We have giantkin. This seems like it could be pretty awesome.
There's a lot of potential for exotic animals here. Rhea, guanaco, and such. We could have some south american megafauna lingering here, like ground sloths.
That works for me.
Personally, I imagine Mythic places like El Dorado or the Fountain of Youth to be in deep underground caverns, accessible only by Link. People who want to get there need to use the legends to locate the one obscure link spot that occasionally connects there.
Admiral Squish
2014-06-05, 02:17 PM
Glad you popped your head in, mindflayerbard, we're glad to have ya!
Huli Jing
Hmm... I suppose it could be made to work. And they ARE a pretty cool race. I really would hate to get rid of them and have to fill the shoes of something quite that awesome. And I suppose it would fit with the general feeling around huli jing to have them spread myths about how they come to be.
I'll have to think on it a bit more, but I think I will likely end up keeping them.
Twantinsuyu
Territory
I did indeed give them the whole andes. Historically they held a good 75% of them anyways, I figure with the advantages of a heavily mapped and useful link system, magic, and divination, and the guidance of those who've lived for many lifetimes, they could probably expand north and south just a bit further and take it all. Plus, it does kinda make it easier to divvy up the landscape, I will admit. I'd say they could expand northways enough be about level with the end of panama.
They did have reed ships for trading, but I don't think they would be suitable to carry or mount cannons to try and fight a sea engagement.
Conquest
That just sounds like a rehashing of Aztatlan's events, honestly. Conquest fails, prisoners are interrogated for their technological (and in this case biological) secrets. I think it's more interesting if Pizarro never gets the chance to try again, and the Twantinsuyu are ready for them when further groups arrive.
As for being unchanged, I don't think anyone ends up unchanged. Time marches on, and new trade goods The proposed take on it takes the nation from their historical identity with a bit of magic to a deathless-run empire with new access to European tech, which will obviously shape the way the society operates.
And finally, while I understand the advantages of naval power, I don't think that European powers would be able to wipe out many of these native empires if they just 'got serious'. They're as much as 20x more populous as normal in this timeline, with a significant magical advantage, a rapidly-growing understanding of European technological advantages, and a significantly more united front (as smaller, non-allied groups have a higher death rate from diseases). Spain in Aztatlan would be akin to America in Vietnam, a long, extremely bloody slog through enemy territory that would eventually end with the crown giving up, or being unable to continue. Spain might be able to take the shorelines, but they would never be able to completely subdue the empire.
Immunity
I could imagine half-breed children holding the secrets of immunity, though, for both the Amazonas and Twantinsuyu. I'm not sure if that would be a fast enough solution to save them, though.
Deathless
I think if anyone is gonna have deathless, it's GOT to be the Twantinsuyu. The dead inka were mummified, and treated as though alive, and even had a voice in the leadership (through their descendants, yes, but still). They even kept all the palaces they had in life, new Inka had to make their own. They are absolutely perfect for a deathless conversion. If somebody has to lose 'em, I'd say it should be Aztatlan.
Also, whose to say it didn't arise independently? Both areas did have separately-forming great civilizations, if you can independently figure out things like roads and taxes, why not deathless magic?
Woven Words
Here's another thing: There is a suspicion that the Twantinsuyu used a system of knotted rope as a sort of written language, though it didn't survive the conquest and no examples survived to the present day. Should we have this?
Incest
Another concern: the inkas were rapidly becoming increasingly incestuous as time went on trying to preserve the bloodline of the first inka. At the time of contact, if I remember correctly, the only acceptable bride for an inka was a sister. This poses problems going forward, another 200 years of this would definitely leave the inka pretty much incapable of rule, as evidenced by some of the problems from inbred European nobles.
Amazonas
Successor States
Okay, how about we settle on 5? That's a pretty good number, I think.
Quilombo
You know, I'm not sure. They could be seen as part of the foreigners, as they are distinct from the natives. On the other hand, they could well be seen as equally victims of the foreigners. I suppose it's a bit of a toss-up.
Side note: the ones in the amazon would be referred to as 'mocambos'. Quilombo wasn't used until 1670.
Floramancer
Hmm. Alright, I could see that. Probably a prc for druid, which has specific political connotations beyond just the variety of magic it performs.
Spain
Rio de la Plata
I don't know, they did hold panama at the time, getting around cape horn seems like it would be the long way by comparison. Anyways, if they did hold on to the Rio de la Plata settlements, it wouldn't change all that much, they would be able to farm the pampas a bit, but they would probably get better yields out of their Caribbean holdings. It'd be a relatively small, isolated area under their control.
New Grenada
I just can't imagine that Spain would be willing to give up ANYTHING in trade for gold they consider to be rightfully theirs in the first place. The treaty signed over that portion of land to them, in their minds they own it, they just haven't dealt with the pest problem yet. Besides that, Spain was highly religious, and allying peacefully with heathens would be a major no-no. I think they have every motivation in the world to go all full conquistador on the natives, and honestly, they've been stripped of every other major victory so far, letting them take the native states would be the only one we allow them here.
El Dorado
I don't know, there was an actual city the myths were based on, where the people of the state would bring offerings of gold and the leader would be covered in gold dust to ritually wash it off in a sacred pool. I think it would be easy enough to make it be a real thing, and if the people didn't know where it was, how would the city get all the gold? I think it could be moved somewhere nice and secluded (though not underground, that just seems silly to me), and the natives protect it by pointing the spaniards elsewhere.
Portugal
Brazilwood
The alchemist's fire idea was just a suggestion, but if we wanna go that way, we certainly could. Does anyone else have ideas for what its special properties would be?
Fine. Well can we at least have the Fountain of Youth in an underground cave accessible only by obscure link?
I mean, once you get down there you don't have long to get back before the link closes and you have to wait for it to open again. But hey, you've got the fountain of youth right there!
Admiral Squish
2014-06-05, 02:46 PM
I could see the fountain of youth being underground, certainly. Perhaps it ran to the surface at one point but it was diverted underground by something like an earthquake? I mean, if it was underground forever, how would anyone know about it?
I could see the fountain of youth being underground, certainly. Perhaps it ran to the surface at one point but it was diverted underground by something like an earthquake? I mean, if it was underground forever, how would anyone know about it?
Somebody found a link site and said "Hey, I wonder where this goes!"
Admiral Squish
2014-06-05, 02:53 PM
Somebody found a link site and said "Hey, I wonder where this goes!"
There are so many ways that could go wrong without preparation.
You starve to death, because there's water, but no food.
You age yourself out of existance as you need water to survive every three days, but a handful of water de-ages you more than three days.
You get murdered by the eternally-young underground society that jealously guards its water.
I think having it have been on the surface at some point would be wisest. Then some enterprising individual determines that it's possible it was diverted somewhere, and bam.
SuperDave
2014-06-05, 03:12 PM
OK, this has absolutely nothing to do with all that's being discussed about South Vespuccia (awesome work on all the research, everyone!), but KungFuLobster just made an awesome suggestion for a Fusang race:
Houziren, Descendants of the Monkey King
And we're not talking Spirit-Born monkey folk, either. These would be the descendants of his earthly children, the ones he "planted" all over China before he ascended to godhood.
Doesn't that sound awesome!? Whaddaya say, guys?
Steckie
2014-06-05, 03:25 PM
Twantinsuyu
Territory
Are we talking southward into Tierra Del Fuego or not that far?
Conquest
Hmm, that does seem kinda similar to Aztatlan.
How about having the conquest actually succeed? I seem to remember the Spanish setting up puppet kings for a while. Maybe one of those puppet kings is eventually able to lead a rebellion against the Spanish and the Natives that allied with the Spanish.
And then we have the diseases hit them really hard, but not hard enough for the Spanish to be able to defeat them. Only after they find the cure in the mixed race blood are they able to start a recovery. They are barely able to hold the line against the Spanish, but their divination, knowledge of the Link Spirals, knowledge of road systems and experience in the mountains gives them the edge.
Only after their population starts to recover a bit are they able to start taking more territory and even throwing the Spanish back out of their mountains.
Maybe they even take in Native tribes fleeing into the mountains when Genghixander starts his genocide. They would desperatly need to grow their population and that's a way to remove some of the incest problems you talked about. The Inka being desperate enough to marry a foreign woman because he needs to make a treaty with the new Natives coming into Twantinsuyu.
Or is this a bit too similar to the Aztatlan civil war?
Deathless
I'd limit the Deathless to one of the major cultures. They should be distinct and players should be able to see a clear difference between them.
Twantinsuyu makes more sense, that's true. But then what about Aztatlan?
Ships
European cannons and ships are superior, yes. But a fleet of very quick reed ships swarming around one large European ship could do a lot of damage. A European fleet might do the trick though, unless the coast is firmly in the hands of Twantinsuyu and they don't have a safe harbor anywhere closeby.
Quilombo
I'd very much like to do something more interesting with them than just collateral damage in the genocide.
I'm actually quite fond of Genghixander deporting them but not wanting to kill them. Makes him not a complete jerk. He just wants to free his land of those evil Portuguese invaders, the ones they forced to live there can live. Just not in his territory, he wants pure Amazonians.
Hmm, maybe if you like my idea of Native tribes fleeing Genghixander into Twantinsuy, how about he drives the former slaves there as well? That would beef up their population a bit and a sizable African population living there and fighting against the Spanish might be interesting. It would also make Twantinsuyu the promised land for any escaped slave.
For the Inka, how about one descendant out of each generation is chosen as Speaker, and communes with all the ancestors. They are sworn celibate and are entirely devoted in ensuring that the will of the ancestors is carried out and that the mummified bodies are protected. The palaces are prepared such that if the temple is destroyed, or the mummy is destroyed, the Speaker is driven insane and eventually dies. The Speaker chooses the next Speaker from amongst the younger parts of the family.
Admiral Squish
2014-06-05, 09:21 PM
Giantkin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?354945-Giantkin-Varied-Half-Giants-Crossroads)
Took me long enough, but I've finally posted the giantkin! I think I've done a pretty good job, though I suppose the people's response will be able to answer that one. Tuniit are the frostkin, if that needed clarification. :smalltongue:
Houziren
Oooh... Now that sounds pretty awesome too! Ooh, what if they're not from humans, but from the monkeys of flower fruit mountain? A unique culture of sentient, civilized monkeys with the blood of Sun Wukong, the Great Sage, Equal of Heaven. Maybe they have prehensile tails, or martial arts abilities.
I'm kinda tempted to see if it can be made into various uplifted animals related to martial arts animal styles, but I think that probably wouldn't be wise.
On the other hand, we do have Sasquatches already, I would be somewhat concerned they would be too similar, at least in appearance, if not in actual mechanics and function.
Tiwantinsuyu
Holdings
You know, I don't know, I didn't really look that far down.
The empire's maximum extent in the real world was about halfway down chile, where the map goes from desert to forest. I would say we could probably extend them all the way south along the contiguous mountains, stopping once they get to the ones separated by ocean.
Conquest
Hmm. I definitely like it. I'm just not certain for some reason.
I suppose in some ways whatever we do is going to resemble the Aztec events, since it is Spanish conquistadors and a strong native empire.
Okay, let's try it this way. The empire manages to avoid the civil war issue with the two rulers, thanks to the council of former inka (either through the speak with dead thing or them being deathless) and the help of the diviners. Atahualpa is declared inka, because he was the favored son, more popular with the people, and because the diviners predicted war if he were denied the throne. Pizarro is denied permission for expedition #3, but forges the papers necessary and musters a force anyways, knowing that if he fails, thing will end VERY badly. He marches down and makes good headway, helped by disease and the usual shock-and-awe issues the conquistadors exploited, but progress is slower than the historical version thanks to a more united front.
Things are looking bad for the empire as Pizarro makes his way down the Andes. The turning point is at the meeting between Pizarro and Atahualpa. The night before the meeting and the slaughter, the royal diviner discovers the planned attack at the meeting, and, looking further, reveals to the inka the true scope of their past actions. Atahualpa decides to follow the advice he was given some time ago, and orders his men to trap them in the building they were sleeping in and set it on fire. Only a handful survive the fire, being taken as prisoners, along with the Spanish horses (which become a status symbol for the inka until they all eventually die from not being fed and cared for properly). The native allies lose morale with the Spaniards gone, and since many of them are already sick, they are overcome by the might of Atahualpa's 30,000-strong forces. Over the next few years, the prisoners are brain-picked for information, both through old-fashioned interrogation and magical probes, with diviners using them as magical focuses to learn more about the Spanish.
They don't manage to figure out how to stop the plague, though, and much of the northern empire is in disarray, both from the failed rebellion and the death tolls of the plagues. The Spanish don't follow up on Pizarro's expedition for many years, because he went off against permission and even forged documents, assuming he just died. In the intervening time, the inka are ravaged by plague. They already were using bronze, so I don't think that stepping up to iron/steel should be that much of a challenge. Thus, they manage to replicate Spanish firearms and cannons from recovered examples, and determine how to make gunpowder from the Spanish captives, which allows the reduced military force to re-subjugate the northern reaches of the empire and fortify against further invasions from the north. By the time more Spanish arrive, they find the empire looking strong in the north. It's a false front put on to discourage further attempts, but it works. The empire uses its diviners to predict where landings will occur and move forces around to make it look like they're strong all over.
In the next hundred years, to about 1650, the empire's population numbers recover, albeit slowly, but now with a resistance to the diseases of the foreigners (most of them). The total population is still like 50-75% of pre-contact, but they're filling out again. The empire is slowly getting back to it's original state, even moving to expand north and south into the yet-unclaimed mountains with their new guns and cannons. The amazon rebellion happens, though it doesn't particularly affect them. I like the idea of the Inka of the time welcoming escaped Africans, but I don't know he would have a chance to. I mean, if they ran away from Portuguese settlements, they would still most likely be in the eastern portions of the forest, and that's quite a trip overland, and then up the mountains, too.
Deathless
I definitely think the tiwantinsuyu should have deathless. Aztatlan... Maybe they're just undead?
I also like the idea of expanding the deathless' role during the plague, using deathless to create stable points in the system that can't be easily knocked out by disease or other sudden deaths. Maybe a few squadrons of deathless soldiers to serve as the honor guard of the inka and the former inka. Maybe governors or other high-ranking officials. I have a vague idea for creating a paired system, with deathless leaders supplemented by mortal ones. The deathless one communicates the will of the empire, the mortal one communicates the needs of the people.
Ships
Ehh... Maneuverability helps, but without weapons that can make a dent in the hull of the enemy ship, it's just a swarm of gnats. I feel like reverse-engineering a Spanish ship would be extremely difficult, especially with the relative rarity of wood in the tiwantinsuyu empire.
Quilombo
Yeah, I think that making ghengixander kick them out rather than murder them is for the best, but where can they go? I mean, moving them across the entire amazon to tiwantinsuyu seems challenging to say the least. You can't just send 'em right back to the Portuguese or the Spanish. They can't really stay. Maybe they just load 'em onto a few surviving Portuguese ships and send 'em packing, to let them figure out where to go?
Could they be fringe settlements of those who are ex-slaves on the outskirts that serve as outposts of the Amazon? They serve as a secondary buffer to any incursion, since the Amazonians are deeper into the rain-forest.
Admiral Squish
2014-06-06, 12:58 AM
Could they be fringe settlements of those who are ex-slaves on the outskirts that serve as outposts of the Amazon? They serve as a secondary buffer to any incursion, since the Amazonians are deeper into the rain-forest.
Hmmm, They have the veggies for the buffer zone, though...
OOH! What if they send them north into the non-amazon areas of the rainforest, the stuff just south of the dutch-held shoreline? They're independent, free, and not in the amazonas area. Of course, the dutch might be trying to recapture them, but I'm certain the Africans aren't gonna make it easy.
Steckie
2014-06-06, 07:47 AM
Tawantinsuyu
Conquest
The more i think about it the better a conquest of the whole empire or of parts of the empire looks to me.
For one it would make the Spanish seem a bit more dangerous. What we have in the game now is the Spanish failing to capture Aztatlan and making several other failed attempts. And De Soto's attack on Cahokia that also got defeated. And now an attack on Tawantinsuyu that got defeated.
If they manage to capture part of the empire and are only defeated after a major war they (and the conquistadores) have a much more dangerous reputation.
Second, the looting, pillaging and whatever nasty stuff the Spanish did in Cuzco would become a very important for Tawantinsuyu and would motivate the empire to expand again and drive the Spanish out of their land.
Especially if some of the mummies got burned and were thus forever lost for Tawantinsuyu.
Third, if the Spanish had a taste of the riches of Tawantinsuyu, they would become very motivated to conquer it, but as they are already on unfriendly terms with the Triple Alliance they don't have much room to maneuver. I can imagine a Mutual defense agreement between them and Tawantinsuyu, with reed boats trying to slip past Spanish ships to deliver messages back and forth. Nothing too elaborate, but by 1750 they should at least know about each other.
Fourth, having everything hinge on the diviners warning Atahualpa the night before the attack is kinda like saying these guys couldn't have survived without magic.
Fifth, a Spanish conquest, even if it lasts only a few months to a few years, would give Tawantinsuyu an influx of technology wich they can supplement with captured Spaniards filling in the gaps.
If we go for the (partial) conquest i would place it at the 1536 rebellion of Manco Inca Yupanqui and the siege of Cuzco. Maybe the Chachapoya support Manco Inca instead of the Spanish? Maybe Tawantinsuyu just does a better job fighting?
There's only about 700-1200 Spaniards present, they mostly use Native troops to do the fighting for them. Manco Inca Yupanqui has several 10000's of men. Maybe more than 100000 and some say even 200000.
Take away part of those native troops and the Spanish will probably get overwhelmed.
Another option would be that Túpac Huallpa who historically died from smallpox was saved by a remove disease spell and that he started the revolution with Manco Inca Yupanqui supporting him. That would give us a divergence point from real history. He could be a much more diplomatic ruler and take away a lot of the Spanish support not by fighting their native allies but by convincing them at the negotiation table.
Quilombo
What if Genghixander captures the inhabitants of the Quilombos and any African slave he can find and sells them to Tawantinsuyu? In Tawantinsuyu they would just be free men and women (the Inca's didn't have slavery i think) and would be used to replace the population that got killed in the epidemics.
The Afrinca's would probably be very gratefull loyal subjects. A lot of them would probably marry Native men and women.
And Genghixander suddenly has a large amount of funds that he can use to build his empire. If he throws the Portuguese out of Amazonia, he can trade with the Dutch or the Spanish for any supplies he needs to build infrastructure or cities or whatever.
Selling (former) slaves will help him tremendously.
While the Deathless fit the Inca better, we would have to redo a bunch of Aztec stuff if we made them Inca-exclusive.
Perhaps the Aztecs have the more active warrior/priest/advisor variety, while the Incas get the more powerful "Powerful Mages Who can see the future" variety.
I like that idea, BRC!
Also, I came up with a fluff reason for the use of Pyramids, although it may clash with established mechanics.
The Aztecs believed that mountains and high places brought one closer to the gods. What if in Crossroads, divination has a hard time going past mountain ranges? It mirrors the fact that mountain ranges are a huge barrier to pass, so that no one really knows what is on the other side. However, if one does a divination on a mountain (or a symbolic mountain-temple), the divination gains a range bonus that makes it easier to attempt to pierce the mountain barrier. Maybe expand this idea to also cover difficulty in divination to underground areas and pass the horizon of the ocean.
Thoughts?
Also, in the case of Links, since they are so high powered, they can bypass these barriers.
Admiral Squish
2014-06-07, 03:09 AM
Sasquatch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?333691-Sasquatch-race-cultures-feats-Crossroads)
I decided to give these guys a bit of an update while I was thinking about them last night. I bumped the strength up another notch, makming them physically the strongest race in the setting, and added a terrain-specific stealth/movement bonus that really makes 'em feel more bigfoot-ish.
Giantkin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?354945-Giantkin-Varied-Half-Giants-Crossroads)
I also rewrote how the heritage aspect of the giantkin works, so that's probably worth checking out!
Map
so, I added in the great basin and the haudenosaunee. Turns out they took over a pretty big chunk 'o land right up there in 1650-1710.
http://s53.photobucket.com/user/ewurtsmith/media/SimpleCrossroadsMap_zpsd10acf89.png.html
Tiwantinsuyu (I can actually spell that right without looking now!)
Conquest
Hmm.
This really is a tough one.
Does anyone else wanna weigh in on the options?
Deathless
I don't think we'd have to redo all that much of the aztec stuff to remove the amiqui. IIRC, it's just re-attributing a few discoveries/actions and removing some references elsewhere.
I suppose how far the deathless thing goes is up to the thread. We could just have it be the former inka. Or we could have it be in various high-powered political positions. Or we could go further and add a deathless honor guard, or deathless star-watchers. (side note, star-watchers sounds like a great name for a tiwantinsuyu diviner PRC.)
De Soto
A side note: De Soto was present for this whole dealie in tiwantinsuyu. We should probably make a not that he stays behind to later allow him to be crushed into paste at cahokia.
Quilombo
As I said before, moving large populations of ex-slaves in a secure fashion all the way across the thousands of miles of amazon and then up the mountains to an empire that the amazonians likely have very little contact with in the first place seems like quite a challenge. Would the tiwantinsuyu even have anything that the amazonians want/need? Well, maybe mineral goods, like bronze, iron, and gunpowder, but they're probably doing pretty good with the whole floramancy stuff. (another side note: Amazonians with cahokian ironwood would be crazy-unstoppable)
Pyramids
Hmm... I don't know if it would be an elevation thing, but I definitely like the idea of pyramids and similar structures being architecturally powerful somehow. Maybe standing at the top of a pyramid channels ambient magic to you, making spell-casting more powerful?
Steckie
2014-06-07, 09:19 AM
Tiwantinsuyu (I can actually spell that right without looking now!)
Uhm, don't you mean Tawantinsuyu :smallsmile:
Conquest
I'd love to hear the opinion of some other people as well.
Deathless
Probably best not to go into deathless honor guards, that's too much honor for mere soldiers.
How about the former Inka's become deathless and they are allowed to choose a number of arcanists to serve them beyond death.
Sidenote: Chinchorro mummies are mummies found in northern Chile and southern Peru. The oldest known mummies here are from 5000 BC. These mummies predate the Egyptian ones by centuries.
Maybe there are a few of these mummies remaining as deathless Chinchorro somewhere in the Andes?
Naming
Question: the Inca empire called itself Tawantinsuyu. What did the inhabitants call themselves? And do we need to research the names of the people they conquered so we can get the cultural groups correct?
Quilombo
Well where are those ex-slaves going to go then?
We established Genghixander probably doesn't want to kill them. But he seems like the kind of guy that doesn't want to have them around either.
Whatever direction he's going to send them to, they have to face a huge walk across unknown terrain. They need to be guarded constantly or they may escape.
If he sells them, he might break even.
He doesn't even need to take actual goods in return for those ex-slaves. He could sell them for divinations, wich would be very usefull in his war. Advice from a Deathless on how best to set up his empire is valuable as well.
If not he'll need to either drive them north, out of the rainforest. Or south into the Cerrado.
Admiral Squish
2014-06-08, 05:59 PM
Uhm, don't you mean Tawantinsuyu :smallsmile:
:smallannoyed:
Nertz.
Tawantinsuyu
Conquest
Vague idea: what if the empire breaks up into several states through the course of historical events?
Deathless
Hmm... What if it's a subversion of a natural process? With natural mummification, the body retains some very minimal spark of life. Not very much at all, but enough that the mummy can twitch or maybe speak a word or two every decade, possibly maintain some of its senses. When they use a nonmagical mummification processes, the spark is preserved better, allowing the mummy to move more and speak with greater frequency as the techniques become more and more advanced (though you can't get to full wandering mummy levels without magic). Then once magic gets involved, you can get the mummy to walk, or hold full conversations. Deathless are just a specific magical technique developed by the priests, which preserves the positive energy enough to fully preserve the fallen's mind and keep their soul in place.
This kinda changes the definition of deathless and undead. A deathless is a preservation of the being's positive energy, and binds the soul to the body in perpetuity. Undead have lost the original soul, no matter how intelligent they are, they're a body that's been infused with negative energy through natural or magical processes, which sort of creates a negative version of the original soul in the case of intelligent undead.
Naming
More research to be done!
Quilombo
That's really the problem, I just don't know
I see three options.
North into French Guiana/Suriname/Guyana.
Pros: Close to where they would be originally, still in the rainforest
Cons:Close to europeans who may want to recapture them.
West to Tawantinsuyu
Pros: Could be interesting to integrate into tawantinsuyu, beneficial to ghengixander
Cons: VERY long, difficult journey, uncertain contact.
Nowhere (kill/integrate)
Pros: Neatly handles their existence, (integrate) could be interesting fusion, (kill) would be simple
Cons: (integrate) might be an odd departure from anti-european stance of ghengixander, (kill) might be too much.
Martial Artist
Yes, I'm doing more rewrites, because apparently I'm a masochist.
The martial artist base is pretty solid, but I don't like the way the martial schools work. I been talking to a martial artist friend about it, and I'm working on a new system for it. There'll be a set of general techniques that everyone can learn, and then the schools. Anyone can learn the basic abilities in a school, and get the associated benefit the school provides, but you need a certain number of techniques in that school to get the advanced techniques, and a certain number of advanced techniques to get the next level. The abilities will be designed such that they scale well, so you can be a powerful character even if you never go beyond the basic techniques, but there are rewards for spcilaization, too.
The idea being you can be a master of one who devotedly follows the teaching of the one school, or you can be a dabbler who picks from many different sources. I also want to separate the schools from the base class a bit, so we can make as many or as few schools as we want.
I suspect it's going to end up looking like TOB, no matter how I do it, but that's probably because we're both working toward the same goals.
AtlanteanTroll
2014-06-09, 10:24 AM
Just read through the Sasquatch race. Beautiful. Is there any expected time for an on-the-forum playtest? I'd love to join one when the time comes...
Admiral Squish
2014-06-09, 01:28 PM
No set time, yet, unfortunately, but we are definitely working toward it. I think we can probably run one once we have most of the base classes and a least a full empire's cultures finished.
Palanan
2014-06-09, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Admiral Squish
Cons: (integrate) might be an odd departure from anti-european stance of ghengixander....
And how are the escaped slaves Europeans?
Integration or at least tolerance would be my call. The quilombos (as I call them in general) won't ever be that populous and won't present any kind of threat. The escaped slaves won't be bringing cannons, won't be making war, and in general will probably step as lightly as they can.
Also, since they're Africans and socially invisible, they represent an opportunity to send spies and infiltrators back into the Portuguese colonies. Most of them will know Portuguese as well as their native languages, and some of them might pick up local Amazonian languages. They'd certainly make it plain they're not really with the white boys, and as native-born inhabitants of equatorial rainforest they'd have far more in common with the native Amazonians than the Portuguese colonists.
They're not a threat, and they could be useful, and they're definitely not Europeans, so I wouldn't see a need for them to be deported or destroyed.
Steckie
2014-06-09, 02:36 PM
Tawantinsuyu
Conquest
I've actually thought about breaking up the empire as well, but there are a few problems with that approach.
First of all, it would take the iconic Inca Empire out of the game. Together with the Aztecs and the Maya these guys are probably the most well known pre-columbian nation. If you are able to publish a second book that details South America, Tawantinsuyu will probably become one of the signature empires of the setting.
Second, Tawantinsuyu fracturing would mean a massive Spanish victory.
Remember, the only reason the Spanish were able to conquer the Inca empire was because they played various factions in the empire against the government. Just like Cortez did in Mexico, the Spanish used native allies to dismantle the Incas.
If you fracture Tawantinsuyu in the setting, you're practically giving the whole area to the Spanish.
I'm still in favor of a short conquest by the Spanish followed by a desperate struggle to keep them out of the mountains while people are dying from European diseases.
Deathless
I've had a thought about these guys as well.
What if we create a third kind of dead people brought back? I'll call these guys 'mummies' as a working name.
Historically the Inca's had something called a 'Capacocha Ceremony', where children between the age of 4 and 16 were sacrificed (usually on top of a mountain). This is where all those frozen mummies on the top of mountains come from.
We can do the same thing with dead Tawantinsuyu emperors (the Inca). The body of the Inca gets prepared after death to make sure the body doesn't decay for centuries. Then several children get sacrificed to bring back the life of the Inca so he can continue advising the nation.
And the Inca chooses several of his most trusted advisors/soldiers/arcanists/........ to help him with his duties. The living Inca is the ones who rules the nation but the mummies (and their family who still serve them) are like powerfull nobles.
In fact, maybe these child sacrifices are specifically bred to eventually get sacrificed.
Kinda like the whole 'Savior Sibling' thing where parents get a second child to get organs/blood/whatever for their first fatally ill child.
During life these children are treated like high nobles as well, trained in various arts and crafts, combat, tactics, science,... But when they are needed to create a new mummy, they are brought to the top of a mountain and sacrificed.
To put it in game terms:
Undead are dead people brought back into a mockery of life by negative energy.
(These are your standard undead with the undead template)
Deathless are dead people brought back to a body in what is basically biological stasis by positive energy.
(These are the Mexica version where people die and then the priests pray to the sun to send him or her back to serve the empire. These have the Deathless template)
Mummies are dead people brought back to a body that needs contant maintenance by one or several willing sacrifices.
(These are the Tawantinsuyu version that are brought back through the Capacocha Ceremony. They have the Mummy template)
Quilombo
North and West are their options, yes.
And south into the Cerrado is a possibility as well, it's a large tropical savanna south of Amazonia.
There's just one thing, sending a whole group of African slaves into a large savanna is just so..... stereotypical. I know Africa has a huge amount of ecosystems other than the savanna's, but the typical image people have of Africa is often those savanna's. Or the Sahara.
It could be interesting, but it's just too stereotypical for a settig that does it's best to step away from those idea's.
North to French Guyana could work but it's very close to the rainforest. There are lowlands there with rainforests that are easily reachable by Genghixander. Why would he throw them out of Amazonia but into an area that is probably on his 'to do list'. After all, the French and the Dutch are pretty similar to the Portuguese in their eyes.
West over the mountains is the most logical choice. Difficult? Absolutely, but so are the other routes.
And i still think Genghixander selling the Africans to Tawantinsuyu could work. Cotton, divinations, minerals, knowledge,.... They may not be able to offer much but anything he can get for them is better than nothing.
Integrating them would be an odd thing for Ghengixander, who comes off as a bit racist at this point. Maybe the Africans are usefull to him, but he's got his plant-abominations to kill the Europeans. I don't think he needs Africans to infiltrate Portuguese colonies, he would just send his plants and get it over with. If he needs information he can use birds, or people camouflaged in living plant-suits.
In my eyes Genghixander doesn't want to kill the Africans because they're not European, but they aren't Amazonian either. They may even be European-tainted in his eyes.
SuperDave
2014-06-10, 07:24 PM
Quilombos/Refugees
I think that there's a way for Genghixander to spin this so that everyone benefits (except the Portuguese, of course): use 'em a buffer against future invasions. (My idea is similar to what Mith and Palanan suggested, just more detailed).
The Portuguese imported so many slaves to work their plantations that in many areas, blacks outnumbered whites 8 to 1. The whites lived in constant fear of slave-revolts; it dominated their lives and their minds; they were ALWAYS cognizant of how badly outnumbered they would be if the slaves just got their act together, and they were TERRIFIED that it would happen to them (and sometimes, it did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_revolts_in_Brazil_before_1835)).
Genghixander sees that the foreigners are divided into two factions: slaves and masters. He decides to exploit this weakness, by turning slaves (and ex-slaves) against their masters, using them as spies and infiltrators and supplying them with weapons (both magic and mundane), coordinating his raids with the leaders of the Underground to sow maximum confusion and paranoia among the Portuguese.
Working from within and without simultaneously, Genghixander hollows out the Portugeuse resistance forces, and drives them back into the sea. Then, in a great display of "generosity" towards his new allies, Genghixander gives them what he never wanted anyway, and awards the slaves the coastal holdings of their former masters ("forty acres and a mule", if you will). The newly-emancipated Africans stream out of the qilombos and into the newly-empty farmlands. The ex-slaves now have a stake in keeping the Portuguese from gaining a foothold on the coast, and will absorb the brunt of any invasion the Portuguese might stage, buying the Amazonas valuable time to prepare their plant-weapons. As an added bonus, with most of the qilombos empty, the jungles are now almost entirely free of foreign influence, just like Genghixander always wanted. Only now, he's got a fancy new "fence" of capoeira-practicing ex-slaves around his lands.
Houziren
I originally thought they'd be the Monkey King's human descendants, but over the centuries, his genes would be so diluted by interbreeding with regular humans that the Houziren would look no different from anyone else, so I think having them be actual sentient monkey-folk is better. That way, they're separate populations, and can't interbreed.
Don't worry about them being too much like Sasquatches, though. The Sasu-Quache are ape-like and heavy, designed for strength and secrecy. The Houziren are monkey-like and light-footed, designed for dexterity and ANYTHING but secrecy.
The Houziren would be constantly in motion, insatiably curious, and posess a complete and utter disregard for politeness and good manners, but would be prone to low INT scores and a lack of impulse-control. I get the feeling they'd be a blast to play.
Actually, I kinda want to design these myself. Can I claim them for homebrewing?
Tawantinsuyu Map
I actually can't see the new map at all. All I'm getting is a broken image icon. When I expand the spoiler for the new map of North Vespuccia, it doesn't even have the broken icon, it's just empty. Is that happening to anyone else?
Deathless
I think if anyone is gonna have deathless, it's GOT to be the Twantinsuyu. The dead inka were mummified, and treated as though alive, and even had a voice in the leadership (through their descendants, yes, but still). They even kept all the palaces they had in life, new Inka had to make their own. They are absolutely perfect for a deathless conversion. If somebody has to lose 'em, I'd say it should be Aztatlan.
Agreed and seconded. Despite all the work we did on fitting them into Aztatlan, they really do fit much better in Tawantinsuyu. But we can recycle most of our work, and let the Spirit Fields be Mesoamerica's schtick. BRC's suggestion that "Perhaps the Aztecs have the more active warrior/priest/advisor variety, while the Incas get the more powerful "Powerful Mages Who can see the future" variety" would also work nicely, methinks.
Huli Jing
They're DEFINITELY too cool not to use, and I would be really sad to see them go. And asides from tanuki/badgers, I really haven't heard very much about any other kind of intelligent animals in Asian folktales, except maybe dragons. Maybe the others are out there, but the huli jing are the only ones which are playable because they're the only ones who get along with humans in large numbers?
Fountain of Youth
Also too cool not to use. We could write a whole series of adventure-modules centered around the search for it. The same goes for El Dorado.
Martial Artist Rewrite
Um, you might wanna talk to KungFuLobster about that. That class is kind of his baby, and he'll definitely want some input on the final version.
Miscellaneous
"Amazonians with cahokian ironwood would be crazy-unstoppable"
:smalleek:
"What if in Crossroads, divination has a hard time going past mountain ranges?"
Meh, makes sense. It'd certainly help history move in the direction we want it to.
Chinchorro mummies
Oh my goodness yes. YES WE MUST MAKE THIS HAPPEN. If you thought mummy-rot was scary, just imagine what these guys could do!
Just read through the Sasquatch race. Beautiful. Is there any expected time for an on-the-forum playtest? I'd love to join one when the time comes...No set time, yet, unfortunately, but we are definitely working toward it. I think we can probably run one once we have most of the base classes and a least a full empire's cultures finished.
We REALLY need to get to work on the background skills and feats of different Cultures. I feel like it's the one thing that's holding us back from playtesting. I've got coworkers who are already eager to help us playtest; Sasquatches may prove to be the player-favorites for this setting, if the interest I've gotten so far is any indicator.
Palanan
2014-06-10, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by SuperDave
I actually can't see the new map [of Tawantinsuyu] at all.... Is that happening to anyone else?
Do you mean the map of the Great Basin and the Haudenosaunee? That one's totally blank for myself as well.
Originally Posted by SuperDave
Working from within and without simultaneously, Genghixander hollows out the Portugeuse resistance forces, and drives them back into the sea. Then, in a great display of "generosity" towards his new allies, Genghixander gives them what he never wanted anyway, and awards the slaves the coastal holdings of their former masters....
Overall I think this is an interesting and more strategic approach, and it has a pragmatic, politically-realist feel. However...are we talking about the Portuguese holdings around the mouths of the Amazon, or is this back to the main body of Portuguese colonial possession in the southeast?
Originally Posted by SuperDave
...with most of the q[u]ilombos empty, the jungles are now almost entirely free of foreign influence....
Fact is, even with the quilombos jam-packed, the lowlands Amazonian rainforest would still be almost entirely free of foreign influence. I can't emphasize enough that the quilombos aren't the seventeenth-century equivalent of suburban sprawl; these are tiny, minuscule pinpoints in what, at this time, is an immense and virtually unbroken landscape of dense green canopy. The quilombeiros will be living a very small-scale subsistence lifestyle, hand-to-mouth and supplemented with whatever fish and game they can snare. They will not be having a major impact--they couldn't if they tried. They are too few, too thinly scattered, too deeply swallowed by the vast reaches of the Amazon.
The only place where they will be having a disproportionate impact is in the mind of your "Genghixander" fellow. You may already have taken this into account, but I want to underscore that the quilombos themselves will be trivial in their impact.
Otherwise I think the approach of driving out the Portuguese--assuming this is set where I think it is--and allowing the quilombeiros to take over the fazendas is interesting and worth pursuing. The one thing I'll point out is that the economy of the region will obviously change, because the quilombeiros won't be using slave labor to perpetuate the sugarcane plantations; they'll essentially be recreating their quilombos--the one society they know really works for them--in a coastal environment.
However, the danger then becomes slave-raiding by Portuguese and other European privateers, exactly the same as they would be doing on the coast of Africa. Either Genghiwhatsis will have to protect the ex-quilombeiros somehow, or they'll need to find a way to defend themselves.
Originally Posted by SuperDave
...buying the Amazonas valuable time....
As an editorial note, calling the native tribes "Amazonas" is okay for a shorthand discussion here, but when it comes time to write the actual descriptive text I'd strongly suggest avoiding this term. Amazonas is the name of a modern Brazilian state, and it only covers a portion of what Brazil describes as "Amazonia Legal," and only the Brazilian territory at that, leaving out large areas of Peru, Venezuela, Colombia and Bolivia, among others. "Amazonas" is a modern administrative name, and as such wouldn't be appropriate for the Crossroads time.
And someone may have noted this already, but "Amazon" itself is a European term, and not in ten thousand Great Cycles will Genghiwhatsis be using that to refer to his realm. I'm not sure if there's any single native term that would begin to cover it, since many Amazonian tribes only had a very limited geographic awareness, and no real sense of a broader kinship of peoples within the Amazon basin.
If you haven't covered this already, I'd suggest naming the realm of Genghiwhatsis as "Gengiwhatsis," since many chiefdoms take their name from the chief himself (or herself) and vice versa, and if he comes from a similar cultural background there's no reason he wouldn't extrapolate his name on a continental scale. If he's as unbalanced and obsessed as I'm sensing, it would be a perfect touch of megalomania, as well as neatly in line with native cultural norms.
Originally Posted by SuperDave
...capoeira-practicing ex-slaves....
While this certainly sounds badass, the fact is that capoeira isn't unstoppable kung fu; it's more dance and art than krav maga. If the former quilombeiros are used as a buffer force, their physical presence will provide most of the stopping power, rather than their supposed martial-arts acumen.
A better question, which I've been meaning to ask for a while, is what sorts of magic are used in Western Equatorial Africa, and whether the quilombeiros will have preserved any of that power and lore? If everyone from Cahokia to the Amazonian tribes has powerful spellcasters, why not the West African peoples as well? And what, in turn, does that do for the slaves, the quilombeiros and the post-quilombeiros?
A better question, which I've been meaning to ask for a while, is what sorts of magic are used in Western Equatorial Africa, and whether the quilombeiros will have preserved any of that power and lore? If everyone from Cahokia to the Amazonian tribes has powerful spellcasters, why not the West African peoples as well? And what, in turn, does that do for the slaves, the quilombeiros and the post-quilombeiros?
All I can recall of African magic is that voodoo is heavily based on African culture. Perhaps it is similar to shamanism?
As for what to do with the magic the slaves possess, maybe in order to be an effective shaman, one has to have a strong sense of self, since you have to know who you are when calling on the spirits for aid, and having the will to direct them. The European brutality to their slaves greatly diminished the power of any potential shamans, since they were usually broken in spirit to rebel, or use the magic of their people. In the quilomberios, the shamans started to rise again, as the people started developing a strong identity, making the revolt much easier. This helps in the defense of the new territories after the revolution is complete.
As for Gehigixander, I think he views the ex-slaves as better than the Europeans, and although the two parties may not exactly be on the best terms (minimal trade and such), I feel that there is a mutual defense pact between the two nations, since although each one o them are strong, it is obvious from the revolution that together they are stronger.
Palanan
2014-06-11, 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by Mith
In the [quilombos], the shamans started to rise again, as the people started developing a strong identity....
I was indeed thinking that magical abilities, which would be lessened somehow in the slaves, might slowly return in the quilombo communities. I don't think self-identity is the way to approach it, however, since that touches on some extremely difficult real-world issues with slavery--issues best avoided altogether.
A better approach might be for the Portuguese to have "magehounds," or whatever the term might be (field inquisitors?) to sniff out magical talent in arriving slaves, and either suppress or eliminate them as policy and profit suggest. This would be another instrument of terror to hold over the slaves, since the slavemasters would naturally want to encourage paranoia and mistrust among slaves, and what better way to do that than encourage informers?
So the slightest expression of magical talent would be dangerous in the extreme, and even whispers of lore best left unspoken; but once slaves begin escaping and finding their way to the quilombos, those few who had some knowledge would be free to share, to instruct, to experiment and build on what they recalled--and really, in this context, we should expect a few adventurers striking out from the quilombos, braving the dangers of a vast new wilderness.
And in this context, any magical abilities dependent on bloodlines would clearly be favored, since there would be several generations in the quilombos for abilities to manifest, perhaps alongside whatever scraps of recollected lore could be compiled or rediscovered. I wouldn't ever see the quilombos as magical powerhouses, but I'd expect after some years that latent abilities would manifest, and an oral tradition of mage-lore would be reestablished.
Also bear in mind that whatever the continental-scale trends and motions, there will always be individual contacts between quilombeiros and local tribes in their immediate area--often hostile, sometimes amiable--and it's likely that on occasion, a local Amazonian shaman might take a liking to a promising young quilombeiro, and teach him some of the native Amazonian magic. And it's also possible that in some rare cases, an exceptional quilombeiro might be able to develop a fusion of African and Amazonian traditions--essentially a cultural theurge, if you will.
Steckie
2014-06-11, 01:55 PM
Quilombo
A buffer state could work for attacks from the sea, but there are still Portuguese on the Southern coast of Brazil who will want to capture the coast.
Let's say the buffer got set up around 1650 with the support of Genghixander. During his reign he will probably support them military and help them keep the Portuguese out. The Quilombero's need time to set up a government, army, navy, economy,....
Genghixander will probably want them to have a strong unified government so he wont allow them to start a democracy. Maybe he chooses an African escaped slave that became a Floramancer as one of his generals and uses him to rally the Quilombero's and slaves they capture under his banner. After that it's a small step to set up that African Floramancer as the ruler of the buffer. Maybe marry one of his daughters to him to Ensure his continued support.
But, one day Genghixander is going to die (1570-1580 maybe?). And within a year or two his generals will have ripped the empire apart and divided it among themselves while squabbling or fighting over borders.
This would mean that the buffer is suddenly without support. It is in fact ruled by one of the generals squabbling over borders and is now threatened not only from the coast, the north and the south but from the jungle as well.
I propose that after the empire fractures they are able to take some land from one of the generals that border the buffer, expanding their rule further inland and giving them a better base on wich to build power.
This would leave them surrounded by enemies on all sides, so they're going to need to make peace on one border. I doubt the Portuguese, Dutch or French would want to make peace with former slaves so their best bet is making peace with the Amazonian successor states. They could make a deal where they will remain neutral in wars between the successor states and continue their task of guarding the buffer against European incursions.
Side effect would be them becoming the de facto meeting ground for diplomacy between the successor states.
Questions:
1) The African slaves shipped to Brazil, were they mostly Muslim or other religions? We need to know this before we can decide on what kind of magic the buffer uses.
2) How are the relations of the buffer with the French and Dutch in 1750? The buffer probably still have a lot of Sugar plantations and they need to sell that Sugar somehewhere.
3)I also see these guys taking over several Portuguese ships and using them to attack ships transporting slaves. They will then capture those ships, free the slaves and absorb them into their nation. That way they could probably increase their population quickly. How would that effect their relations with the European nations other than Portugal?
Magehounds
I like the idea. Maybe we can even take it a step further and make these actual hounds?
A hound that can sniff out magic is something people would be very interested in breeding. And they would make an awesome animal companion.
Tawantinsuyu
Nobody wants to share their thoughts about choosing between either a short conquest and revolutionary war or a rebuffing of the original invasion?
I would say in terms of the Inka, a repulsion of the original invasion would be too repetitive, so a short conquest followed by a revolution would be a better idea.
Will the Europeans want to trade with the Freeman's State to obtain Sugar, since that would require them to recognize the state and admit defeat in a way. If that is the case, I am wondering how the new nation is going to develop economically, unless it has the resources to be self-sustaining (which I doubt.)
Palanan
2014-06-11, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Steckie
The [quilombeiros] need time to set up a government, army, navy, economy,....
I doubt if the quilombeiros will have the population, the resources or the interest to do much of any of this. More than likely they would re-create their quilombos nearer to the coast, and would end up with a scattering of small settlements much as they had in Africa. Remember that the quilombos themselves are the ex-slaves' attempt to recreate their old lives and culture in a new land. There's no reason they'd change that if they had to move somewhere else with the same general habitat.
They certainly will not be recreating any form of European settlement, since that's both culturally alien to them as well as a deeply hateful memory.
Originally Posted by Steckie
Genghixander will probably want them to have a strong unified government so he wont allow them to start a democracy.
At this point in history, even alternate history, that would be the last thing any of these cultures would be thinking about.
Originally Posted by Steckie
Maybe he chooses an African escaped slave that became a Floramancer as one of his generals and uses him to rally the Quilombero's and slaves they capture under his banner.... Maybe marry one of his daughters to him to Ensure his continued support.
Again, I'm not sure if this is the way to go, because these new coastal quilombos probably won't have enough of a population, or real cohesion, to treat them as a single unified state--and thus no reason for Gengiwhatsis to marry off a daughter, which probably wouldn't be his first inclination anyways. (He's been described a little earlier as not exactly the accepting and tolerant type. His daughter goes to a studly biomancer warrior who is very, very in with Gengiwhatsis.)
In general it's better to think of the coastal quilombos as more of a cultural zone than any sort of state. They'll probably each have a chief, a headman, a small council of elders or some other form of very local, very small-scale government. They'll be in touch with each other, probably practice some form of clan exogamy, and will probably have occasional tiffs and small-scale power struggles, but bear in mind they'll be scattered across a large area and they're limited to foot travel.
Originally Posted by Steckie
Let's say the buffer got set up around 1650 with the support of Genghixander.
Originally Posted by Steckie
But, one day Genghixander is going to die (1570-1580 maybe?).
...I assume you mean 1670-1680?
Originally Posted by Steckie
This would mean that the buffer is suddenly without support. It is in fact ruled by one of the generals squabbling over borders and is now threatened not only from the coast, the north and the south but from the jungle as well.... They could make a deal where they will remain neutral in wars between the successor states and continue their task of guarding the buffer against European incursions.
Sadly, I think it's far more likely that they'd simply be swallowed up or picked off individually. They will be living a precarious existence no matter what, deeply vulnerable to everything you've mentioned. They won't be populous or unified enough to be any sort of formal state capable of making alliances, and so their utility as even minor geopolitical players will be close to nil.
Their last, best hope (so to speak) will have to come from within--whatever power that remembered lore and resurgent bloodlines can offer them. Since they're not a major force in the region, they're also not a major threat; I seriously doubt that any of the successor generals will pay them much attention when there are all the other successor generals to conquer. If they keep a very low profile, and spend their magical efforts on deflecting the European slave-raiders (perhaps by pretending to be biomancers themselves; hey, if it works!) then many of the coastal quilombos might be able to hang on.
Any way you slice it, though, these people are in for a long, rough ride.
Originally Posted by Steckie
1) The African slaves shipped to Brazil, were they mostly Muslim or other religions?
I don't think any of them were Muslim at that point--or hardly any to speak of. Look at Brazil today: practices like candomblé and umbanda derived from the indigenous belief systems of the West African peoples, mixed in part with European traditions. There would have been a variety of those belief systems brought over with the African captives, which in game context would be the baseline structures for any African magical lore.
Originally Posted by Steckie
2) How are the relations of the buffer with the French and Dutch in 1750?
Where is this buffer supposed to be located again? I have a hard time understanding where much of this is meant to take place--and I've spent a lot of professional time looking at maps of Brazil.
Originally Posted by Steckie
3)I also see these guys taking over several Portuguese ships and using them to attack ships transporting slaves. They will then capture those ships, free the slaves and absorb them into their nation. That way they could probably increase their population quickly. How would that effect their relations with the European nations other than Portugal?
I really can't imagine the coastal quilombos would be doing this. These people aren't mariners; their ancestors were hunters and agriculturalists when they were stolen from Africa, and their entire uprooted existence in Brazil has been completely terrestrial, apart from whatever rafts or canoes they built in the quilombos.
Keep in mind that whether in 1650, 1750, or 1850, a warship represents the most complex and sophisticated machine its culture can produce. There is a reason most good captains first went to sea when they were ten or twelve--it takes decades of experience, day in and day out, to become knowledgeable enough about the ships themselves, about managing their crews, and about the countless moods of the ocean to be able to navigate, maneuver and fight a ship effectively. You don't just jump aboard, spin the wheel and win the day. You don't.
It's not impossible that an exceptional quilombeiro might have been taken in a slave raid, learned the seafaring trade and eventually become qualified to command. But it's close to impossible that the coastal quilombos as a whole would be able to mount an effective, coherent naval strategy, much less supply the trained and professional manpower required to carry it out.
Also, keep in mind that even for a highly professional captain and crew, intercepting another ship at sea is incredibly difficult without a tremendous amount of luck. Remember the cat-and-mouse between Jack Aubrey and the captain of the Acheron in Master and Commander? That was only possible because they were both running along the coast, they were both superlative sea captains, and they both had detailed charts. You need a Naval Hydrographic Office, backed by the Admiralty and the infrastructure of a global maritime empire, to provide you with those charts, as well as the countless other resources required to deploy an effective naval force.
The quilombos have none of that--and moreover, there's no compelling reason for them to risk everything angering much more powerful states on behalf of people they've never met. They want to live quietly and stay out of everyone's way--not provoke a final confrontation.
Originally Posted by Mith
Will the Europeans want to trade with the Freeman's State to obtain Sugar, since that would require them to recognize the state and admit defeat in a way. If that is the case, I am wondering how the new nation is going to develop economically, unless it has the resources to be self-sustaining (which I doubt.)
And just to reiterate, I don't think the coastal quilombos will be numerous or organized enough to be treated as a state.
Also, please keep in mind that no quilombos anywhere are going to be producing sugar, because sugarcane plantations are labor-intensive and fueled by slavery. The quilombos, moreover, are populated entirely by 1) ex-slaves with horrid memories of this experience, and 2) their children who have been raised on bitter tales of those horrid memories.
No one in any quilombo will be working on a sugarcane plantation. They will not be producing sugar.
.
Fair enough. I was going on the idea of 1) an actual state, not a tribal break down, and 2) What I know of the area in terms of generating an economy for the state. If those are highly unlikely to happen, then it'll make sense that they resort to the isolated villages. The question is then, how long until the European powers are either back in place, or at least recaptured and shipped of all the freed slaves to other places? The idea of a state would be to establish something that would be a reason for there to not be Europeans in the area.
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